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CJSmith
05-31-2013, 07:14 AM
I was crusing through the list and noticed a SMSgt on there. Talk about starting all over. Anybody know anyone else that has done this?

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123350334

TREYSLEDGE
05-31-2013, 07:47 AM
Back in the mid-90s I met a Captain who made SMSgt before being commissioned. I think he was an SP while enlisted. I can't remember his officer AFSC, but I don't think it was SP. He was in an AETC job.

Pretty rare today, I think. Wish him luck.

loggie94
05-31-2013, 07:50 AM
I had a friend who recently retired... he found out he had a line number to SMSgt AFTER he was selected to go to OTS. We were 1LTs together in Korea. Best part, he was Philipino and despite 16 years of service, looked young enough to be a 'young' Lt. I only heard him swear once in that year, and it was after being treated like a 'young' LT by a newly arrived O-6 (over something he had nothing to do with). He stormed into my office, slammed the door, and cursed for a good ten minutes about wanting his blankety stripes back so he could get some blankety blankety respect from the blankety blank, blank Colonel.

He was one of the good ones...I'm sure he was a stand-out NCO...he was an exellent CGO, and he went on to be a great squadron commander before retiring with 18 commissioned years and 14-15 enlisted years under his belt.

I've known many other E-to-O's... and concur, in most cases, that they make better officers. But, I've also known a couple out to blow that average.

Drackore
05-31-2013, 08:01 AM
I hope they lead from the front, don't forget where they came from, and don't lose sight of who they now "lead". Alas I am sure I am dreaming.

imported_blacksheep1208
05-31-2013, 09:01 AM
The 1N5 functional at AFISRA made the jump from SMSgt to 2nd Lt back in the mid to late 2000's if I remember correctly.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
05-31-2013, 09:41 AM
I was crusing through the list and noticed a SMSgt on there. Talk about starting all over. Anybody know anyone else that has done this?

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123350334

Starting all over? After 10 years wearing stripes I surely never felt that way. Someone once told me I was starting over at the bottom, but it was more like the bottom of the top. First Flight/CC job I had as a LT I rated on a SMSgt. Not a bad way to "start all over," is it? :)

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
05-31-2013, 09:43 AM
I hope they lead from the front, don't forget where they came from, and don't lose sight of who they now "lead". Alas I am sure I am dreaming.

It takes time to learn to lead at that capacity. That said, some people pick it up quickly and some never get it. A-holes are a-holes in all walks of life...

CJSmith
05-31-2013, 10:36 AM
Starting all over? After 10 years wearing stripes I surely never felt that way. Someone once told me I was starting over at the bottom, but it was more like the bottom of the top. First Flight/CC job I had as a LT I rated on a SMSgt. Not a bad way to "start all over," is it? :)

I meant it in a sense of starting from the bottom of a new rank tier. You are right it is the bottom of the top. It purley goes off of where you work, who you work for, etc etc. on how a O1E is treated. My wife had 10 years enlisted and when she crossed over she was treated as though she was a 22 y/o kid that didn't know her head from her ass.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
05-31-2013, 10:43 AM
I meant it in a sense of starting from the bottom of a new rank tier. You are right it is the bottom of the top. It purley goes off of where you work, who you work for, etc etc. on how a O1E is treated. My wife had 10 years enlisted and when she crossed over she was treated as though she was a 22 y/o kid that didn't know her head from her ass.

Being enlisted gave me perspective on what jr enlisted went through, but other than that nothing I really did as enlisted prepared me to be a Flight Commander, so I made MANY mistakes. Sometimes I wish I could go back in time and punch Lt FLAPS in the throat. He tried his best though with the knowledge/experience he had.

71Fish
05-31-2013, 11:22 AM
IMO, prior enlisted makes the best O's, especially in maintenance.
A good friend made MSgt, wore it for a couple of years or so then got selected to OTS. He was selected on his last opportunity with age waivers. He just retired as a Maj.

Stalwart
05-31-2013, 01:19 PM
I went from GySgt (E-7 USMC) to ENS (O-1E USN) so I also had a service change 'culture shock'. As Flaps said, being prior enlisted I had perspective and some understanding of how the military worked, procedures etc. but little that actually prepared me to be a Division Officer or Department Head. Having made many mistakes, in addition to going back to punch ENS Stalwart in the throat, I would go back to some of my Platoon & Company Commanders from the Marines and try to help them a bit more now that I understand their role a bit better.

imported_Sgt HULK
05-31-2013, 01:26 PM
saw this same thing as well

Measure Man
05-31-2013, 01:53 PM
Yes, I knew a female SMSgt that is now a Major..

She was a SMSgt in like 13 years, then crossed over.

SgtS
05-31-2013, 02:23 PM
Way back in the day as an Airman, my flight Chief was a SMSgt and got picked up for OTS. I don't think he made it through though. If I remember right, think they found something during his physical later on while in training that they didn't like and sent him on his way back to service as a SMSgt. Don't know what happened to him after that.

sandsjames
05-31-2013, 02:46 PM
I think E5, maybe E6, would be the cutoff for me.

SENDBILLMONEY
05-31-2013, 06:34 PM
I was crusing through the list and noticed a SMSgt on there. Talk about starting all over. Anybody know anyone else that has done this?

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123350334

I don't know any personally, but I remember reading in AFT way back about a CMSgt with 28 years AD who got commissioned as a physician's assistant and did 12 more years before retiring.
More recently, there was a paralegal CMSgt in the ANG who got her J.D. and got commissioned as a JAG officer.

I guess it would take the stress out of officer promotion boards. Worst case, they nonselect you and you reenlist as a CMSgt to retire.

Measure Man
05-31-2013, 06:44 PM
I think E5, maybe E6, would be the cutoff for me.

I applied as an E7. First board took zero non-tech degrees.

I pulled my app before the second board because I got a great assignment, but could not PCS with an active application in. In another year or so, they really began accepting a lot of people...I do sometimes wonder, "what if"? Pretty sure I would've gotten accepted eventually.

jondstewart
06-01-2013, 05:26 AM
Wonder if he had to take a pay cut. I know a 2nd Lt right out of OCS makes about as much as a seasoned SSgt or young TSgt and figured even being prior enlisted, he's probably making MSgt pay at best. BUT, once he makes Captain around 20 years, make as much as a Chief

SENDBILLMONEY
06-01-2013, 10:40 AM
Wonder if he had to take a pay cut. I know a 2nd Lt right out of OCS makes about as much as a seasoned SSgt or young TSgt and figured even being prior enlisted, he's probably making MSgt pay at best. BUT, once he makes Captain around 20 years, make as much as a Chief

Nope. There's a "save pay" provision in 37 USC ยง 907. An enlisted member who is appointed as an officer is paid the greater of 1) pay and allowances of the officer grade, or 2) pay and allowances as if the officer were still serving in the last enlisted grade held before appointment as an officer. The same law has a similar provision for warrant officers who accept commissions as O-1 or higher. Very senior enlisted or warrant officers who make the jump to O-1 might not see a financial benefit right away, but they won't take a pay cut.

sandsjames
06-01-2013, 12:40 PM
I applied as an E7. First board took zero non-tech degrees.

I pulled my app before the second board because I got a great assignment, but could not PCS with an active application in. In another year or so, they really began accepting a lot of people...I do sometimes wonder, "what if"? Pretty sure I would've gotten accepted eventually.

I remember when almost any degree was accepted. Then it changed (and rightly so, IMO) to more specific degrees. Is it the same for all officers now, or just people going enlisted to officer?

imported_DannyJ
06-01-2013, 02:15 PM
I remember when almost any degree was accepted. Then it changed (and rightly so, IMO) to more specific degrees. Is it the same for all officers now, or just people going enlisted to officer?

They still do take almost any degree, but it's best if it lines up with what job(s) you're putting on the 56. That said, the board doesn't chose the job for you, so you could end up having a degree in astrophysics and get commissioned as a services officer. Weirder things have happened. The technical boards are the ones that require certain degrees.

I saw that SMSgt on the list and had to chuckle. If I were that far in, no way in hell would I go to being an O-1E.

Mr. Happy
06-01-2013, 03:11 PM
I rather be a chief than an "O" any day of the week!

OtisRNeedleman
06-01-2013, 08:17 PM
I went from GySgt (E-7 USMC) to ENS (O-1E USN) so I also had a service change 'culture shock'. As Flaps said, being prior enlisted I had perspective and some understanding of how the military worked, procedures etc. but little that actually prepared me to be a Division Officer or Department Head. Having made many mistakes, in addition to going back to punch ENS Stalwart in the throat, I would go back to some of my Platoon & Company Commanders from the Marines and try to help them a bit more now that I understand their role a bit better.

I'll piggyback on this. Separated from the unit as an E-4 Sgt, came right back not quite four years later (school/ROTC) as a butter-bar. My "culture shock" was one of seeing and being in the unit in a whole new and different way. Learned a lot, left a bit bitter about what I saw from the commander. Happily, I did, in fact, find out that there were commanders who gave a shit about their junior officers and didn't just care about making that eagle.

AFCommunicator
06-02-2013, 09:51 PM
I knew a guy that did this. Comm guy (obviously), who we will call Colonel M. This dude crossed over as a SMSgt, made full bull and retired after something like 34 years or something crazy. One of the best commanders I ever had. I think he was an old 2E radar troop, knew his stuff in and out (and everything, just not ATCALS/METNAV). He used to get ribbed by the Chiefs in the until about crossing over.

-AFC

Chief_KO
06-02-2013, 11:31 PM
I knew one person who crossed over as a SMSgt. He made SMSgt around 14 years, figured he could make a bigger impact as an O rather than as a Chief. Although he made more money (naturally) and retired as a Major he said he would have rather stayed enlisted and be a Chief.

WRT to prior enlisted officers...my experience was 50/50. 50% were very good and respected the enlisted corps with the other 50% out to screw the enlisted every time they could.

JD2780
06-02-2013, 11:33 PM
O-3E retirement is way better than E-9 retirement. As an O you might be able to get back to the tactical level and work and lead again.

I'd rather be an O than an E-9. Just my personal opinion. Seeing as how I won't be either it isn't a big deal.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
06-03-2013, 12:20 AM
O-3E retirement is way better than E-9 retirement.

Pay scale on O-3E/O-4 vs Chief ret pay varies greatly depending on the person's TIS at time of retirement.

JD2780
06-03-2013, 12:22 AM
Pay scale on O-3E/O-4 vs Chief ret pay varies greatly depending on the person's TIS at time of retirement.

I was figuring a guy retiring as chief at 25-26 yrs vs retiring as O-3E O-4 with 30 yrs to make sure you get that O retirement with the 10 yrs required.

ubermetroid
06-03-2013, 04:25 PM
I was figuring a guy retiring as chief at 25-26 yrs vs retiring as O-3E O-4 with 30 yrs to make sure you get that O retirement with the 10 yrs required.

What do Os get in retirement that Es dont get?

JD2780
06-03-2013, 04:41 PM
What do Os get in retirement that Es dont get?

More money.

SomeRandomGuy
06-03-2013, 04:45 PM
What do Os get in retirement that Es dont get?

I think people forget that the only grades that get an extra bump for being prior enlisted are O1-O3. If you cross over to the dark side after 4 years you become on O1E. If it takes you 4 years to make O4 after that then on that day you become O4 with 8 years TIS and you get paid the same as every other O4 with 8 years TIS. The pay for a Chief and a Major are actually pretty close to the same. An O4 over 18 gets $7283.64 per month (not counting BAH) while an E9 over 18 gets $5357.10. That is a difference of $1926.54 per month but it is important to remember that the E9 can continue to get longevity raises while the O4 cannot. If the E9 stays until HYT (30 years) he will be making $6743.34 per month. That means the difference in retirment pay for an E9 and O4 if they bost stay 30 years is 60% of $540.30 or $324.18 per month. The O4 makes quite a bit more on active duty but in retirement pay it is not as much as people think.

Stalwart
06-03-2013, 04:57 PM
I was figuring a guy retiring as chief at 25-26 yrs vs retiring as O-3E O-4 with 30 yrs to make sure you get that O retirement with the 10 yrs required.

Even retiring with the same time in service, the O-3E would have a slightly higher retirement pay than an E-9. **


What do Os get in retirement that Es dont get?

Nothing.

**EDIT: Until going beyond 30 years total service

ubermetroid
06-03-2013, 04:59 PM
Higher though right, and that's O-3E. To get that officer retirement you need to do another 10 yrs. so you would most likely have more time in service than the average E-9.

What does "officer retirement" really mean?

JD2780
06-03-2013, 05:00 PM
Even retiring with the same time in service, the O-3E would have a slightly higher retirement pay than an E-9.



Nothing.

Higher though right, and that's O-3E. To get that officer retirement you need to do another 10 yrs. so you would most likely have more time in service than the average E-9.

Stalwart
06-03-2013, 05:19 PM
To get that officer retirement you need to do another 10 yrs. so you would most likely have more time in service than the average E-9.

Depending on when you are commissioned. If commissioned with 2 - 10 years of service, an officer could get to O-3E (2 years from O1-E to O-2E and 2 years from O-2E to O-3E) well before someone who enlisted on the same date.

It generally takes 9 - 11 years to go from O-1 to O-4 (4 - 6 years to go from O-3 to O-4). I was commissioned at my 12-year time in service mark and went over my 10-year service mark to collect retirement as an officer but due to service obligations for accepting promotion and a fellowship assignement I have incurred obligated service to almost 27-years of service.

JD2780
06-03-2013, 05:28 PM
Depending on when you are commissioned. If commissioned with 2 - 10 years of service, an officer could get to O-3E (2 years from O1-E to O-2E and 2 years from O-2E to O-3E) well before someone who enlisted on the same date.

It generally takes 9 - 11 years to go from O-1 to O-4 (4 - 6 years to go from O-3 to O-4). I was commissioned at my 12-year time in service mark and went over my 10-year service mark to collect retirement as an officer but due to service obligations for accepting promotion and a fellowship assignement I have incurred obligated service to almost 27-years of service.

So your retirement would be than the average E-9.

I haven't seen many folks get commissioned before 4 yrs. Thats just me personally, I'm sure it happens every year. I have however, seen plenty of TSgts and MSgts get commissions between 12-15 yrs of service. After an initial pay cut, they will get better retirements.

Pay cut resulting from the loss of special duty pay because of being an officer.

Missileman
06-17-2013, 04:03 PM
Some do take a pay cut. I did.

I was a SMST drawing Pro Pay (p-4) and housing in 1972. (Had time in grade for Chief, commissioned on or about same day board met).

Lost over $100 a month in 1970 going to a 2nd Lt. A lot of money in those days.

The "Save Pay" provision didn't apply.

MACHINE666
06-18-2013, 05:45 PM
It is highly unlikely. The max age for commissioning is 35 with exceptions made for some medical officers and chaplains. The age limitation CAN be waived but with the manning levels of the officer ranks, it isn't very likely.

They Army is willing to waiver age for Social Workers too...I don't know if that really qualifies for "medical" (not so much in my book, but whatever). My girlfriend is slightly older than me (she's 45), and we're trying to get her a commission in the Army to do exactly just that...she already has a BA in Psychology, however the Army wants their Social Workers to have an MA or PhD...I suppose we'll see soon enough if she gets selected.

MrMilitaryMoney
06-18-2013, 05:46 PM
I wonder if any CMSgts made the switch?

MACHINE666
06-18-2013, 05:50 PM
I wouldn't trust that SMSgt any further than I could throw her, especially if she some how made Senior in under 15 years (if such a thing is possible).

She will undoubtedly bring more Blue Kool-Aid to the party than what is already necessary.

Pullinteeth
06-18-2013, 05:52 PM
I wonder if any CMSgts made the switch?

It is highly unlikely. The max age for commissioning is 35 with exceptions made for some medical officers and chaplains. The age limitation CAN be waived but with the manning levels of the officer ranks, it isn't very likely.

MACHINE666
06-18-2013, 05:58 PM
It is highly unlikely. The max age for commissioning is 35 with exceptions made for some medical officers and chaplains. The age limitation CAN be waived but with the manning levels of the officer ranks, it isn't very likely.

They Army is willing to waiver age for Social Workers too...I don't know if that really qualifies for "medical" (not so much in my book, but whatever). My girlfriend is slightly older than me (she's 45), and we're trying to get her a commission in the Army to do exactly just that...she already has a BA in Psychology, however the Army wants their Social Workers to have an MA or PhD...I suppose we'll see soon enough if she gets selected.

SENDBILLMONEY
06-18-2013, 06:10 PM
I wonder if any CMSgts made the switch?

There were three enlisted POWs that were given "battlefield commissions" in Hanoi: SSgt Arthur Cormier, Amn Arthur Neil Black, and SSgt William A. Robinson. After their release in 1973, there was some resistance in getting those appointments recognized. Yes, the Man was keepin' them down. The senior POWs basically fought to have them recognized, and the approval date was April 9, 1973. Two O-6 POWs swore them in. They didn't get officer back pay for those POW, but they were commissioned as second lieutenants.

How does this relate: By the time it was approved, Arthur Cormier had a line number for CMSgt. He asked to delay his commissioning until he pinned on CMSgt, preserving his right to retire as an E-9 if he didn't serve a full ten years of commissioned service. The request was approved. Cormier ultimately retired as a captain.

Golther
06-20-2013, 01:56 PM
They still do take almost any degree, but it's best if it lines up with what job(s) you're putting on the 56. That said, the board doesn't chose the job for you, so you could end up having a degree in astrophysics and get commissioned as a services officer. Weirder things have happened. The technical boards are the ones that require certain degrees.

I saw that SMSgt on the list and had to chuckle. If I were that far in, no way in hell would I go to being an O-1E.


All the pilots and navigators that I know that have Poli-Sci degrees.