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sandsjames
05-27-2013, 03:54 AM
What does this have to do with the Air Force?

ForumAdmin, can you please move this thread to the proper section?

RobotChicken
05-27-2013, 03:56 AM
:lalala:closed_2:kev:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol

RobotChicken
05-27-2013, 04:05 AM
:lalala:closed_2:kev:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol

VFFTSGT
05-27-2013, 05:26 AM
So Stephen Fincher from Tennessee, has decided he is on a mission from God to cut food stamps.



Oh and BTW - Fincher has secured millions upon millions of dollars in farm subsidies for his state. So who's "stealing" from who exactly?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2013/05/22/gop-congressman-stephen-fincher-on-a-mission-from-god-starve-the-poor-while-personally-pocketing-millions-in-farm-subsidies/

Another politician (aka hypocrite).

Absinthe Anecdote
05-27-2013, 05:42 AM
What does this have to do with the Air Force?

ForumAdmin, can you please move this thread to the proper section?

Then why in the hell did you start the thread?

VFFTSGT
05-27-2013, 05:44 AM
Then why in the hell did you start the thread?

I don't think he did. I think JB did. The forum is all jacked up and time stamping posts wrong causing some posts to be out of order.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-27-2013, 05:46 AM
I don't think he did. I think JB did. The forum is all jacked up and time stamping posts wrong causing some posts to be out of order.

I'd prefer to blame it on Sandsjames.

sandsjames
05-27-2013, 02:03 PM
I'd prefer to blame it on Sandsjames.

Thank you. I'll take the blame. No biggy. If I get banned I'll sign is as Hulk, Burawski, thread_cop, or JD. I'm cocked, locked, and ready to retire...bada bing bada :boom

sandsjames
05-27-2013, 04:18 PM
Absolutely...I am serious...and don't call me Shirley.

sandsjames
05-27-2013, 04:33 PM
"If by chance some day you're not feeling well and you should remember some silly thing I've said or done and it brings back a smile to your face or a chuckle to your heart, then my purpose as your clown has been fulfilled."

Absinthe Anecdote
05-27-2013, 04:34 PM
I always liked that story about the time Jesus cast out some demons from two possessed men and the demons went into a heard of pigs and then the pigs ran into the sea and drowned. Then the villagers came out to and asked Jesus to leave.

Cool story, I know Jesus probably didn't eat swine but it sounds like those villagers did. He could have gave them a farm subsidy as compensation but he apparently didn't.

Matthew 8:28-34
28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.

31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

33 And they that kept them fled, and went their ways into the city, and told every thing, and what was befallen to the possessed of the devils.

34 And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts.

sandsjames
05-27-2013, 05:10 PM
I do remember the day when I found out that you're retiring as an E-5. That DID bring a smile to my face.

E6, but thanks for caring. "The band broke up because I couldn't bear Rotten anymore because he was an embarrassment with his silly hats and his, like, shabby, dirty, nasty looking appearance."

RobotChicken
05-27-2013, 07:38 PM
I do remember the day when I found out that you're retiring as an E-5. That DID bring a smile to my face.
:tape Better than retired to a 'Big-top' with no computer to check your 'facts'....(for a lack of laughs) :lol

Rusty Jones
05-29-2013, 02:07 AM
I always liked that story about the time Jesus cast out some demons from two possessed men and the demons went into a heard of pigs and then the pigs ran into the sea and drowned. Then the villagers came out to and asked Jesus to leave.

Cool story, I know Jesus probably didn't eat swine but it sounds like those villagers did. He could have gave them a farm subsidy as compensation but he apparently didn't.

Jesus is a communist, didn't you know?

Matthew 20:1-16

1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
2 Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4 and said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day?’
7 They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you will receive.’

8 “So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’
9 And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius.
10 But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius.
11 And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner,
12 saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’
13 But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?
14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’
16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”

RobotChicken
05-29-2013, 09:22 AM
:firedevil: Quote this!! :wizard:

meatbringer
05-29-2013, 07:21 PM
Interesting, that does have a communist flavor to it, doesn’t it?

However, I think what was being illustrated was that it doesn’t matter how later in your life that you come to serve Christ. Be it the first hour or the last hour you get into heaven.

Jesus definitely doesn’t want you to have any possessions because there are a number of passages where he commands his followers to sell everything they own.

Luke 14:33
New International Version (NIV)

33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples

Matthew 19:21
New International Version (NIV)

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

One of the parts of the bible that people love to completely disregard.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-29-2013, 07:25 PM
Jesus is a communist, didn't you know?

Matthew 20:1-16

1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
2 Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4 and said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day?’
7 They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you will receive.’

8 “So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’
9 And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius.
10 But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius.
11 And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner,
12 saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’
13 But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?
14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’
16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”

Interesting, that does have a communist flavor to it, doesn’t it?

However, I think what was being illustrated was that it doesn’t matter how late in your life that you come to serve Christ. Be it the first hour or the last hour you get into heaven.

Jesus definitely doesn’t want you to have any possessions because there are a number of passages where he commands his followers to sell everything they own.

Luke 14:33
New International Version (NIV)

33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples

Matthew 19:21
New International Version (NIV)

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

meatbringer
05-29-2013, 07:29 PM
Interesting, that does have a communist flavor to it, doesn’t it?

However, I think what was being illustrated was that it doesn’t matter how later in your life that you come to serve Christ. Be it the first hour or the last hour you get into heaven.

Jesus definitely doesn’t want you to have any possessions because there are a number of passages where he commands his followers to sell everything they own.

Luke 14:33
New International Version (NIV)

33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples

Matthew 19:21
New International Version (NIV)

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

One of the parts of the bible that people love to completely disregard.

JD2780
05-29-2013, 07:31 PM
One of the parts of the bible that people love to completely disregard.

I'm constantly donating my possessions.

meatbringer
05-29-2013, 07:40 PM
I'm constantly donating my possessions.

Everything? I'm going to assume you have a television, maybe an xbox, and other stuff you don't need to survive. Nice try, unless you were being sarcastic.

JD2780
05-29-2013, 07:50 PM
Yes I have some possessions but I don't have 5 flat screens, any many other things, our kids have a PS3 and a wii. we also have our cars house, bed, and the usual furniture, but those are part of shelter. My pastor did tell us that as time has passed as did the literal meanings of things. We believe he meant not to become materialistic and judge life based on things. I've donated things we don't need, like extra tv's, clothes, jackets, sleeping bags. So yes, my wife and I are constantly finding things in our house to donate.

Feel free do what you usually do and sharp shoot, make fun of and trash my beliefs. It's your right to trash what I believe and if it makes you feel better than so be it.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-29-2013, 08:02 PM
Yes I have some possessions but I don't have 5 flat screens, any many other things, our kids have a PS3 and a wii. we also have our cars house, bed, and the usual furniture, but those are part of shelter. My pastor did tell us that as time has passed as did the literal meanings of things. We believe he meant not to become materialistic and judge life based on things. I've donated things we don't need, like extra tv's, clothes, jackets, sleeping bags. So yes, my wife and I are constantly finding things in our house to donate.

Feel free do what you usually do and sharp shoot, make fun of and trash my beliefs. It's your right to trash what I believe and if it makes you feel better than so be it.

JD,

I do enjoy your posts and I think you are very likely a nice person who is sincere in their beliefs.

I tried many years to be a believer but the more I read and learned about the bible the less I believed that it is the divine word of a supernatural entity.

I love to talk about the bible and I would very much like to hear you opinion of the post I just made in the Go AF Atheists thread directed at Wildman.

I don’t think you or anyone else is dumb for believing in God. I just have a hard time in believing in God after studying and contemplating the concept over the course of my life.

JD2780
05-29-2013, 08:15 PM
Some folks labeled a group of us Christians as zealots yet the fanatical disdain is coming from them. They have repeatedly referred to some folks as morons and made fun their beliefs. Either way, I made the mistake of hoping back into this conversation with folks that truly do not care what anybody else has to say.

AA you didn't personally attack anybody from what I recall, you simply spoke your piece and pressed on with life.

sandsjames
05-29-2013, 08:41 PM
Some folks labeled a group of us Christians as zealots yet the fanatical disdain is coming from them. They have repeatedly referred to some folks as morons and made fun their beliefs. Either way, I made the mistake of hoping back into this conversation with folks that truly do not care what anybody else has to say.

AA you didn't personally attack anybody from what I recall, you simply spoke your piece and pressed on with life.

Agree...do not get sucked in. There's no logical ending to the discussion and progress won't be made by either side.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-29-2013, 09:25 PM
Agree...do not get sucked in. There's no logical ending to the discussion and progress won't be made by either side.

What is wrong with a little bit of bible study?

If you were to help me understand the bible better I would be so truly thankful to you.

Rusty Jones
05-29-2013, 10:13 PM
What is wrong with a little bit of bible study?

If you were to help me understand the bible better I would be so truly thankful to you.

There is very little that most Christians can teach you. You've already demonstrated more knowledge of the Bible than what most Christians have.

sandsjames
05-29-2013, 10:16 PM
What is wrong with a little bit of bible study?

If you were to help me understand the bible better I would be so truly thankful to you.

Nothing wrong with bible study at all. However, this is not bible study. This is, for the most part, the non-believers trying to catch the believers contradicting themselves. I'm more than happy to have a serious discussion with you (though I will not claim to be an expert) but if you'd really like to gain an understanding of it I'd recommend finding someone who has put in more time studying than I have.

sandsjames
05-29-2013, 10:25 PM
There is very little that most Christians can teach you. You've already demonstrated more knowledge of the Bible than what most Christians have.

What's sad is you are absolutely right. And the reason is that many people are so intent on disproving, or finding contradictions (as you're proving) that they put a lot of time into "educating" themselves in order to do nothing more than try to dissuade people from their faith. Really, really sad.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-29-2013, 11:15 PM
Nothing wrong with bible study at all. However, this is not bible study. This is, for the most part, the non-believers trying to catch the believers contradicting themselves. I'm more than happy to have a serious discussion with you (though I will not claim to be an expert) but if you'd really like to gain an understanding of it I'd recommend finding someone who has put in more time studying than I have.

No doubt that there is a bit of that going on.

However, it isn’t necessarily the Christian that is contradicting themselves. It is often the bible that contradicts what our belief about the nature of God to be.

For example, I have often been told that God is an omniscient being and is perfect and loving. I can’t get past the book of Genesis without having that view of God crumble.

From a philosophical perspective the story of the great flood carries a lot of implications to God’s nature and omniscience.

God became disappointed with mankind and decided to kill them all except for one family. Being omniscient he would have known that he would again become disappointed with mankind, rendering his reset of mankind pointless.

Plus, I know we are not supposed to question God’s plan but that seems brutal and cruel to drown everyone because he created them flawed to begin with and is ultimately responsible for mankind’s imperfections.

This leads me to believe that either God is not omniscient or he is brutally cruel and not perfect. However, for me there is another option; the story is not true and is just a myth from the Bronze Age.

If you have another view of that story, I’m interested in hearing it and I promise not to criticize you if you do share it.

sandsjames
05-29-2013, 11:32 PM
No doubt that there is a bit of that going on.

However, it isn’t necessarily the Christian that is contradicting themselves. It is often the bible that contradicts what our belief about the nature of God to be.

For example, I have often been told that God is an omniscient being and is perfect and loving. I can’t get past the book of Genesis without having that view of God crumble.

From a philosophical perspective the story of the great flood carries a lot of implications to God’s nature and omniscience.

God became disappointed with mankind and decided to kill them all except for one family. Being omniscient he would have known that he would again become disappointed with mankind, rendering his reset of mankind pointless.

Plus, I know we are not supposed to question God’s plan but that seems brutal and cruel to drown everyone because he created them flawed to begin with and is ultimately responsible for mankind’s imperfections.

This leads me to believe that either God is not omniscient or he is brutally cruel and not perfect. However, for me there is another option; the story is not true and is just a myth from the Bronze Age.

If you have another view of that story, I’m interested in hearing it and I promise not to criticize you if you do share it.

All of this is why I don't "study" the bible, especially since there is no doubt that much has been lost in translation over the years. I live by what I have determined is the bible's message to me.

As far as God being "perfect", that is also open to interpretation. He is jealous. Does that make him imperfect? I don't know. I know that if he created everything and sees/knows everything than he has a right to be a little arrogant and jealous. Again, I don't know if that makes him imperfect. I also believe that all of His creations are perfect or, as the bible states, "good". This doesn't mean that His creations can't become flawed (especially humans).

And to answer your question, yes, he does know that he "would again become disappointed with mankind" which is why we know the earth will once again be destroyed. But, instead of doing it in the manner it happened with Noah, he has given US the choice, this time, of who will be "saved" and has told us how to make that happen. I guess, for Christians, we consider Jesus our "Ark" and we are hoping we do the right things to get the boarding pass.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-29-2013, 11:59 PM
All of this is why I don't "study" the bible, especially since there is no doubt that much has been lost in translation over the years. I live by what I have determined is the bible's message to me.

As far as God being "perfect", that is also open to interpretation. He is jealous. Does that make him imperfect? I don't know. I know that if he created everything and sees/knows everything than he has a right to be a little arrogant and jealous. Again, I don't know if that makes him imperfect. I also believe that all of His creations are perfect or, as the bible states, "good". This doesn't mean that His creations can't become flawed (especially humans).

And to answer your question, yes, he does know that he "would again become disappointed with mankind" which is why we know the earth will once again be destroyed. But, instead of doing it in the manner it happened with Noah, he has given US the choice, this time, of who will be "saved" and has told us how to make that happen. I guess, for Christians, we consider Jesus our "Ark" and we are hoping we do the right things to get the boarding pass.

That’s an interesting perspective and not uncommon amongst believers.

I wasn’t able to do that, I kept picking at the bible and the concept of a god until it unraveled.

I would not say that the destruction of my belief in god brought me any joy because I did morn his loss and was bitter and angry for a number of years.

I think this might explain why atheists can be scornful towards those who still believe.

I have gotten over the rage I used to feel and now view my existence as even more special and remarkably fascinating.

Thanks for sharing!

sandsjames
05-30-2013, 01:59 PM
It's such a shame that people like Rusty and Absinthe, even though they don't believe, can have a logical conversation about religion but then there is Joe.

JD2780
05-30-2013, 02:04 PM
This was me. You don't need to be coy. I've seen enough of what the Taliban has done to see the destructiveness of religion. :)

It wasnt only you. I wasnt being coy. I could've just listed all the people that are disrespecful to others about their religious beliefs, but instead I said some folks. I've also seen the comfort of religion to know it can be just a decent.

Mock away JB, its what you do best.

Calmo70
05-30-2013, 02:05 PM
Haven't been on for quite a while - but all this religion discussion made me decide to post. I was raised Southern Baptist and believed strongly in that faith when I joined the Air Force in 1970. But, after being a round the world - several times - I couldn't reconcile the one issue with the Christian faith with what I had encountered. That issue is the one unforgiveable sin in the Christian faith. Those who deny Jesus as the son of God will not be going to heaven. I can't believe that some of the most moral people I've ever met of a variety of beliefs - but not Christian - would be condemned to hell (if it exits) for not believing in something they were just not exposed to and/or embraced in their upbringing.

So now - I'm pretty much an agnostic. I don't believe all this just happened thru evolution or whatever - But, I do believe there is probably some unseen force that has kind of sheparded the human race into what they are today. I am not sure if there is even such things as a heaven or hell.

Having said all that - I do believe there are people of all faiths that take their beliefs to the extreme and that includes Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhist, Hindu, et al - and even atheists. No group can claim to be innocent of extremists.

So - that is where I stand in this discussion. And, just to add a little irony to all of this - my father - now deceased - was a Southern Baptist deacon. My wife was raised Catholic, but has now converted to the Assembly of God, and my son is now pursuing his Masters and Doctorate in Theology from a Baptist seminary. I have absolutely no problems with any of that and in fact am very proud of my son in pursuing his faith to such a degree as he is doing. And my wife has embraced her new faith and is very involved with her church's food pantry program. And while I've had very involved discussions with both of them regarding their beliefs versus mine - there is still very much a respect between all of us in not letting our differences in faith affect our love for each other as a family.

Rusty Jones
05-30-2013, 02:38 PM
Having said all that - I do believe there are people of all faiths that take their beliefs to the extreme and that includes Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhist, Hindu, et al - and even atheists. No group can claim to be innocent of extremists.

But the thing is... atheists are not a "group." If you're a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, Buddhist, or a Hindu... you're actually a member of something.

Atheists are not.

So what the next atheist does has nothing to do with me. Can't say the same about those who belong to a religion.


My wife was raised Catholic, but has now converted to the Assembly of God,

Ugh, no disrespect, but... why would someone of a civilized denomination convert to a church of savages? I can see a Catholic going Greek Orthodox, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Presbyterian... but Pentecostal? Ugh!

Pentecostalism - with Assembly of God being its first and oldest sect (COGIC, or Church of God in Christ, came next when the eldest black man in the congregation was told to take the black members elsewhere and start his own church) - was founded by Charles Parham, a convicted pedophile.

I know that this is all beside the point, but... of all major denominations of Christianity, I find Pentecostals to be the ones whose minds are the most "consumed" by religion; as most sects of Pentecostalism outlaw anything secular (like music, many are ONLY allowed to listen to gospel), and have modesty rules for women - no makeup, must wear long dresses, etc, etc - making 12 year old girls look like someone's grandma.

Calmo70
05-30-2013, 03:07 PM
But the thing is... atheists are not a "group." If you're a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, Buddhist, or a Hindu... you're actually a member of something.

Atheists are not.

So what the next atheist does has nothing to do with me. Can't say the same about those who belong to a religion.



Ugh, no disrespect, but... why would someone of a civilized denomination convert to a church of savages? I can see a Catholic going Greek Orthodox, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Presbyterian... but Pentecostal? Ugh!

Pentecostalism - with Assembly of God being its first and oldest sect (COGIC, or Church of God in Christ, came next when the eldest black man in the congregation was told to take the black members elsewhere and start his own church) - was founded by Charles Parham, a convicted pedophile.

I know that this is all beside the point, but... of all major denominations of Christianity, I find Pentecostals to be the ones whose minds are the most "consumed" by religion; as most sects of Pentecostalism outlaw anything secular (like music, many are ONLY allowed to listen to gospel), and have modesty rules for women - no makeup, must wear long dresses, etc, etc - making 12 year old girls look like someone's grandma.

No disrespect??? I doubt that - you intentionally go into all what you believe to be wrong with the Assembly of God faith. As far as my wife - well maybe she doesn't embrace all the teachings as we just went to a 50's/60's dance last weekend and even at 60 years old, she still looks pretty good in a the short hoop skirt she was wearing at the dance. And as far as the Catholic religion being "civilized" - let's not talk about how that faith treats women as simply a "birthing" machine and their mess of priest pedophiles (seeing as you mentioned the founder of the Assembly of God faith). And, one more aspect of the Catholic Faith - my father-in-law died in 1978. His priest told my mother-in-law that because he drank a little too much he would probably have to spend some time in pergatory (sp?). To this day - she pays to have a mass said for him on his birthday and date of his death to ensure he eventually gets to heaven. If God exists - I would think he's made up his mind by now. Civilized - Nope.

Anyway - again we can bash any group (and yes I consider atheists as a group) - because their are extremists in all of them. Just as I don't consider my wife a pedophile just because she was once a Catholic and now a member of the Assembly of God. One atheist doing a bad thing doesn't make all atheists the same.

Rusty Jones
05-30-2013, 03:27 PM
And as far as the Catholic religion being "civilized" - let's not talk about how that faith treats women as simply a "birthing" machine and their mess of priest pedophiles (seeing as you mentioned the founder of the Assembly of God faith). And, one more aspect of the Catholic Faith - my father-in-law died in 1978. His priest told my mother-in-law that because he drank a little too much he would probably have to spend some time in pergatory (sp?). To this day - she pays to have a mass said for him on his birthday and date of his death to ensure he eventually gets to heaven. If God exists - I would think he's made up his mind by now. Civilized - Nope.

There's a difference between being corrupt and civilized. They may not be mutually exclusive, but they're not mutually inclusive either.

That said:

Sitting down, receiving "the word," taking communion, leaving = civilized

Receiving "the word", getting up, literally shouting gibberish (and pretending that it's a language), running around, flipping, rolling on the floor = savagery


Anyway - again we can bash any group (and yes I consider atheists as a group) - because their are extremists in all of them.

You can "consider" us a group all you want (you have to, for the sake of your argument); but that doesn't make it so. We don't congregate, there's no "fellowship," there's nothing that binds us together.


Just as I don't consider my wife a pedophile just because she was once a Catholic and now a member of the Assembly of God.

I find Pentecostalism to be beneath someone who was Catholic. Jus' sayin'

20+Years
05-30-2013, 03:33 PM
This is exactly why trying to teach Christians about the Bible is pointless. They simply ignore the parts of the Bible that confuses or upsets them.

If you do not believe in eternal life, why are you trying to teach Christians anything? With your very limited time left in existence, you MUST have much more important things to do.

Live every day like its your last. For you, this should make perfect sense.

sandsjames
05-30-2013, 03:36 PM
I know that you're talking to JB, I think that we've established here that there is a lot for Christians to learn of their own faith. Many people who were once Christian ceased to be, after doing their reading - the deep reading that their fellow Christians didn't do.





And many people who were once atheist are now Christian (or other religion).

Rusty Jones
05-30-2013, 03:38 PM
I don't have an arguement - I have an opinion - and my opinion doesn't match yours. I've already said I don't believe in the Christian faith or any faith really - so what is the point of your rant?

There wasn't one. I stated this. The rant was a side note.

Where I was trying to make a point was about atheists not being a group. Just like I don't consider agnostics to be a group.

You may consider these two to be groups, because you need them to be in order for your arguments to have any validity, but... I see right through that.

Calmo70
05-30-2013, 03:39 PM
There's a difference between being corrupt and civilized. They may not be mutually exclusive, but they're not mutually inclusive either.

That said:

Sitting down, receiving "the word," taking communion, leaving = civilized

Receiving "the word", getting up, literally shouting gibberish (and pretending that it's a language), running around, flipping, rolling on the floor = savagery



You can "consider" us a group all you want (you have to, for the sake of your argument); but that doesn't make it so. We don't congregate, there's no "fellowship," there's nothing that binds us together.



I find Pentecostalism to be beneath someone who was Catholic. Jus' sayin'

I don't have an arguement - I have an opinion - and my opinion doesn't match yours. I've already said I don't believe in the Christian faith or any faith really - so what is the point of your rant?

Calmo70
05-30-2013, 03:46 PM
There wasn't one. I stated this. The rant was a side note.

Where I was trying to make a point was about atheists not being a group. Just like I don't consider agnostics to be a group.

You may consider these two to be groups, because you need them to be in order for your arguments to have any validity, but... I see right through that.

I don't know what you are "seeing through". If a Baptist commits a terrible crime - are all Baptists then seen in the same light?
Probably, by a majority of non-Baptists. If an atheist commits a terrible crime - are all atheists then seen in the same light? Probably, by a majority of non-atheists. In that sense - they are a "group".

Anyway - starting to remember why I've stayed off these forums for so long. Nonsense discussions such as this.

Rusty Jones
05-30-2013, 04:09 PM
I don't know what you are "seeing through". If a Baptist commits a terrible crime - are all Baptists then seen in the same light?
Probably, by a majority of non-Baptists.

It's not that simple. It's like this: Bishop Eddie Long is Baptist. He was found to be a pedophile. Now, all this talk about Catholic priests?

The media tends not to report, at least on a national level, when Protestant pastors engage in such activity. However, it's about the same in every denomination.

While this doesn't make all Baptists look like pedophiles, it DOES mean that Baptists have no room to talk about pedophilia in the Catholic Church.

Now, what kind of things can make Baptists, as a whole, look bad? Try the Westboro Baptist Church. Not simply because of "what" they're doing, but because they're doing it in the name of their religion.


If an atheist commits a terrible crime - are all atheists then seen in the same light? Probably, by a majority of non-atheists. In that sense - they are a "group".

The example I gave with the Westboro Baptist Church is why this is will never be the case. When atheists act, they do so independently of their belief or non-belief. If I kill someone right now, I have no claim to a deity who commanded me to do it. I didn't do it in the name of atheism.

And if a Baptist does so, without religion being a motive, then Baptists are in the clear; just I would be. However, what the Westboro Baptist Church does, atheists lack the ability to do.


Anyway - starting to remember why I've stayed off these forums for so long. Nonsense discussions such as this.

Whoah, hey, relax bud! I'm just giving you shit. Hang around for awhile longer. I mean really mean this.

Pullinteeth
05-30-2013, 04:23 PM
Pentecostalism - with Assembly of God being its first and oldest sect (COGIC, or Church of God in Christ, came next when the eldest black man in the congregation was told to take the black members elsewhere and start his own church) - was founded by Charles Parham, a convicted pedophile.

Reference please? From what I could find, he was accused of sexual misconduct and possibly homosexuality but the case was dismissed. Didn't see ANYTHING regarding pedophilia. Also, he was ostracized for including blacks and mexicans in his ministry so.... According to the CoGiC history, they were formed in 1897 by disenfranchized Baptists not outcasts from the Assembly of God...

http://www.cogic.org/our-foundation/the-founder-church-history/

Calmo70
05-30-2013, 04:32 PM
It's not that simple. It's like this: Bishop Eddie Long is Baptist. He was found to be a pedophile. Now, all this talk about Catholic priests?

The media tends not to report, at least on a national level, when Protestant pastors engage in such activity. However, it's about the same in every denomination.

While this doesn't make all Baptists look like pedophiles, it DOES mean that Baptists have no room to talk about pedophilia in the Catholic Church.

Now, what kind of things can make Baptists, as a whole, look bad? Try the Westboro Baptist Church. Not simply because of "what" they're doing, but because they're doing it in the name of their religion.



The example I gave with the Westboro Baptist Church is why this is will never be the case. When atheists act, they do so independently of their belief or non-belief. If I kill someone right now, I have no claim to a deity who commanded me to do it. I didn't do it in the name of atheism.

And if a Baptist does so, without religion being a motive, then Baptists are in the clear; just I would be. However, what the Westboro Baptist Church does, atheists lack the ability to do.



Whoah, hey, relax bud! I'm just giving you shit. Hang around for awhile longer. I mean really mean this.

I get your point - but still the majority of "believers" would in fact state that an athiest who commits murder is part of a "group" that does things not because of "what" he/she believes - but because of what they don't believe. As far as the Westboro Baptist Church example - they are not part of the "Baptists" as a denomination - they simply included "Baptist" as part of their name. I will grant you that people unfamiliar with say the Southern Baptist Convention would believe that Westboro is part of that denomination. So, yea - they get "grouped" too.

I'm through with this discussion - let's just agree to disagree.

Pullinteeth
05-30-2013, 04:40 PM
Let them eat cake!

Rusty Jones
05-30-2013, 04:46 PM
Reference please? From what I could find, he was accused of sexual misconduct and possibly homosexuality but the case was dismissed. Didn't see ANYTHING regarding pedophilia.

My bad, you're right. This was something that I was reading many years ago, so my memory was off. I retract what I said.


Also, he was ostracized for including blacks and mexicans in his ministry so.... According to the CoGiC history, they were formed in 1897 by disenfranchized Baptists not outcasts from the Assembly of God...

http://www.cogic.org/our-foundation/the-founder-church-history/

William J Seymour is the man I'm talking about. We went off from Houston to Los Angeles, and spread Pentecostalism there. That’s there COGIC started, though technically the article isn't incorrect, because Charles Mason is listed as the founder, and he was a former Baptist. However, the beliefs of COGIC came directly from what Mason received from Seymour. COGIC IS considered a Pentecostal sect, and not a Baptist one.

Charles Parham was also a member of the Ku Klux Klan. He joined in 1910. I'm not sure if, back in his day, the KKK wasn't as bad back then as they were in the in 1950's or 60's; but this is what I'm able to dig up.

Pullinteeth
05-30-2013, 05:14 PM
William J Seymour is the man I'm talking about. We went off from Houston to Los Angeles, and spread Pentecostalism there. That’s there COGIC started, though technically the article isn't incorrect, because Charles Mason is listed as the founder, and he was a former Baptist. However, the beliefs of COGIC came directly from what Mason received from Seymour. COGIC IS considered a Pentecostal sect, and not a Baptist one.

Charles Parham was also a member of the Ku Klux Klan. He joined in 1910. I'm not sure if, back in his day, the KKK wasn't as bad back then as they were in the in 1950's or 60's; but this is what I'm able to dig up.

It appears you are incorrect. AccoSeymour was taught by Charles Parham in Houston and since he was kicked out of the parish he was a minister (NOT out of a pentacostal church) based upon his pentacostal beliefs NOT because they all of a sudden discovered that their minister was black. He then founded his own "church" in an abandoned building in Los Angeles and apparently HE was the racist, barring whites and hispanics form HIS church... According to lore, Charles Mason recieved the holy spirit in this church before he went off to found his new church.....

Also, please provide a credible reference showing that Parham was a member of the Klan... From what I can acertain, the only "evidence" is that a letter allegedly from his Church in Kingman Kansas had "K-onvincing K-onvicting K-onverting" written on the bottom....

sandsjames
05-30-2013, 05:38 PM
There's plenty of logic to go around... it is just unfortunate that you prefer to just dismiss it saying it doesn't "feel" right and ignore it.



And there's your problem - you consider attacks on Magic Sky Man (who by all acounts is a ruthless and hypocritical mass murderer) as personal attacks on you.



Because it is a satisfying feeling. It feels good to free someone from the chains of an evil and outdated superstition, so he or she can live her life.



Well, depends how you define it. 100% of people were once atheists, because they were born atheists... before their parents brainwashed them to believe a certain ideology.

However, if you're looking at reasonable, thinking adults who realized Magic Sky Man is no more real than Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny - I haven't seen the stats - but I'll bet they are very low.

Once again, you throw out these wild statements with nothing to back them up - like your claim that Atheism and Scientology are "large" groups.

Thank you for proving my point.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-30-2013, 06:38 PM
But the thing is... atheists are not a "group." If you're a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, Buddhist, or a Hindu... you're actually a member of something.

Atheists are not.

So what the next atheist does has nothing to do with me. Can't say the same about those who belong to a religion.



Ugh, no disrespect, but... why would someone of a civilized denomination convert to a church of savages? I can see a Catholic going Greek Orthodox, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Presbyterian... but Pentecostal? Ugh!

Pentecostalism - with Assembly of God being its first and oldest sect (COGIC, or Church of God in Christ, came next when the eldest black man in the congregation was told to take the black members elsewhere and start his own church) - was founded by Charles Parham, a convicted pedophile.

I know that this is all beside the point, but... of all major denominations of Christianity, I find Pentecostals to be the ones whose minds are the most "consumed" by religion; as most sects of Pentecostalism outlaw anything secular (like music, many are ONLY allowed to listen to gospel), and have modesty rules for women - no makeup, must wear long dresses, etc, etc - making 12 year old girls look like someone's grandma.

I’m sure you already know this and were probably speaking in generalities but there are plenty of variations within particular sects.

If you ever visit Pentecostal and Baptists churches down south you'll often be surprised as to what kind of music and sermon you’ll hear.

I’ve been to Baptist churches where the members spoke in tongues and would have choirs that included electric guitars and drums.

Often these are smaller churches not affiliated with national congregations but some can be surprisingly large.

sandsjames
05-30-2013, 07:09 PM
And what "point" would that be - other than you're unable to justify your belief system.

Imagine the outrage if I was totally unable to explain socialism, and my only reasoning was that it "feels" right!

I'm not discussing religion with you. My point is that there are several people on here who can have an adult conversation about religion. You are not one of those.

Rusty Jones
05-31-2013, 01:08 AM
It appears you are incorrect. AccoSeymour was taught by Charles Parham in Houston and since he was kicked out of the parish he was a minister (NOT out of a pentacostal church) based upon his pentacostal beliefs NOT because they all of a sudden discovered that their minister was black.

This is incorrect. First, Parham put Seymour in charge of preaching to the black members of the congregation. He was taught by Parham, and groomed by him for this purpose. The church that rejected him, not Parham's church, was also of the Holiness movement - and rejected him, because they believed he hadn't received the gift of speaking in tongues.

Both Parham and Seymour were originally ordained as Methodists. The Holiness movement itself is an offshoot from Methodism.

The church that rejected Seymour, while of the Holiness movement, was still nominally Methodist.

http://www.azusastreet.org/WilliamJSeymour.htm


He then founded his own "church" in an abandoned building in Los Angeles and apparently HE was the racist, barring whites and hispanics form HIS church...

Reference, please. Because I have one saying the exact opposite.

http://www.azusastreet.org/WilliamJSeymour.htm


According to lore, Charles Mason recieved the holy spirit in this church before he went off to found his new church.....

Which, again, is considered to be a Pentecostal sect; not a Baptist one.


Also, please provide a credible reference showing that Parham was a member of the Klan... From what I can acertain, the only "evidence" is that a letter allegedly from his Church in Kingman Kansas had "K-onvincing K-onvicting K-onverting" written on the bottom....

Okay, here's what DO have:

He was known to have commended the Ku Klux Klan during his sermons.

http://books.google.com/books/about/Fields_white_unto_harvest.html?id=xFYvCM6iS7MC

Although not Klan related, he also believed in a doctrine call British Isrealism. Ever heard of the Black Hebrew Isrealites? They're basically the black version of British Isrealists.

http://oldlandmark.wordpress.com/2007/12/07/pentecostal-zionism-charles-fox-parham-and-the-lost-tribes-of-israel/

Mcjohn1118
05-31-2013, 01:25 AM
OK, don't laugh but I have a serious question about atheists and dying. Well, actually funerals. I grew up Catholic and while I have some non-Christian friends, I've never been to a non-Christian funeral/burial, so my knowledge is limited to what I know. Every funeral I've ever been to had a viewing, funeral/church service. We would travel to the cemetery and the minister/priest was at the gravesite after the church service for final prayers. Most times at the wake, there were kneelers so we could say goodbye, say a prayer, etc. While I no longer practice any religion I'm curious as to how atheists have funerals? Or do they? I mean, they could have a wake so people could pay their respects to family members. There would be no minister/priest or whomever saying prayers. Is it just a eulogy of the person's life and that's it? If a family member still believed in God and offered a prayer would other family members who were atheist reject it because the deceased rejected it? I'm not bashing or trolling. I'm just curious.

meatbringer
05-31-2013, 01:46 AM
OK, don't laugh but I have a serious question about atheists and dying. Well, actually funerals. I grew up Catholic and while I have some non-Christian friends, I've never been to a non-Christian funeral/burial, so my knowledge is limited to what I know. Every funeral I've ever been to had a viewing, funeral/church service. We would travel to the cemetery and the minister/priest was at the gravesite after the church service for final prayers. Most times at the wake, there were kneelers so we could say goodbye, say a prayer, etc. While I no longer practice any religion I'm curious as to how atheists have funerals? Or do they? I mean, they could have a wake so people could pay their respects to family members. There would be no minister/priest or whomever saying prayers. Is it just a eulogy of the person's life and that's it? If a family member still believed in God and offered a prayer would other family members who were atheist reject it because the deceased rejected it? I'm not bashing or trolling. I'm just curious.

I haven't been to many funerals, let alone an atheist one. I wouldn't really care, because I would be dead. My wife knows that if I die before her, then there is to be no religious involvement whatsoever. If someone wants to pray, they should respect other people's right and keep it inside their head, especially seeing as how it is a non religious gathering. That is my outlook on it. If it is someone's funeral who lived their lives as a Catholic, then by all means, have a prayer since it is a religious gathering. I would keep my mouth shut being a nonbeliever.

Measure Man
05-31-2013, 04:08 AM
You can't. That would be in violation of the forum rules.

Ughh...meant to Like, not dislike...fat fingers, small phone

Absinthe Anecdote
05-31-2013, 11:35 AM
OK, don't laugh but I have a serious question about atheists and dying. Well, actually funerals. I grew up Catholic and while I have some non-Christian friends, I've never been to a non-Christian funeral/burial, so my knowledge is limited to what I know. Every funeral I've ever been to had a viewing, funeral/church service. We would travel to the cemetery and the minister/priest was at the gravesite after the church service for final prayers. Most times at the wake, there were kneelers so we could say goodbye, say a prayer, etc. While I no longer practice any religion I'm curious as to how atheists have funerals? Or do they? I mean, they could have a wake so people could pay their respects to family members. There would be no minister/priest or whomever saying prayers. Is it just a eulogy of the person's life and that's it? If a family member still believed in God and offered a prayer would other family members who were atheist reject it because the deceased rejected it? I'm not bashing or trolling. I'm just curious.

My mother died as an atheist after a long battle with cancer and she left instructions that she wanted to be cremated and did not want a religious service.

Of course other members in my family are very religious so I knew if I didn’t get involved with the planning of the wake there would likely be a minister speaking at some point.

I ended up giving a eulogy for my mother and I was a lucky that I had plenty of time to prepare. I read a couple of books on coping with loss, the importance of family and friends, and borrowed a couple of thoughts from there. I also spent some time talking to my mother’s closest friends and people she worked with over the years and got some ideas about aspects of her character and values from a perspective other than my own to talk about.

I think I talked for a little less than five minutes. My sister really wanted me to end the eulogy with the 23rd Psalm and after looking at her face when she asked me, there is no way in the world I was going to say no.

I love my sister a great deal and it meant a lot to her; plus, I seriously doubt that my mother would have been able to deny those big teary eyes either.

We had the wake a funeral parlor and spent the remainder of the time talking and visiting with people who showed up. There were members of my mom’s family that I had not seen her since she was a teenager and who traveled a considerable distance, so I think it worked out nicely that we had plenty of time to talk and visit with everyone.

sandsjames
05-31-2013, 02:12 PM
I haven't been to many funerals, let alone an atheist one. I wouldn't really care, because I would be dead. My wife knows that if I die before her, then there is to be no religious involvement whatsoever. If someone wants to pray, they should respect other people's right and keep it inside their head, especially seeing as how it is a non religious gathering. That is my outlook on it. If it is someone's funeral who lived their lives as a Catholic, then by all means, have a prayer since it is a religious gathering. I would keep my mouth shut being a nonbeliever.

Let me ask you this. If you are dead and it doesn't matter, what would the problem be if your wife/family wanted to have a religious gathering/ceremony, since it would be for them and not you? It couldn't hurt you as you're dead and wouldn't know the difference?

By the way, I don't care what they do with my body, either, since I'll no longer be in it. I can be buried, burned, chopped into little pieces. Having a religious ceremony for me won't do any good since I've already had all my chances to repent so, in my view, my judgment has already been determined.

And please, an honest answer as I'm not looking for an argument, I'm looking for a discussion.

sandsjames
05-31-2013, 02:24 PM
The funeral is for you. It is to grieve your death and celebrate your life, why do it in a fashion that would be against your wishes? That makes no sense. If you died, would you want a Wiccan ceremony? Of course you wouldn't. My wife wouldn't want religion involved because she is not religious. The rest of my family would have to respect what I wanted. Of course I would be dead and not realize what kind of funeral it was, but it is about respect. How about everyone just stands around and pisses on the corpse? The dead don't know. How about we just let those nut job baptists protest everyone's funeral? My family knows I am not religious, and they would respect that. For the people who are religious, say a stupid prayer IN YOUR HEAD.

This is the same argument that started the whole religious debate on the forum, and you still just think every gathering should have a religious presence. Wow.

You misunderstood. I wasn't saying everyone should have a religious presence. As a matter of fact, I said I don't care. I'll be dead. My soul will no longer be in my body. If my family wants to have a Wican ceremony, I'm fine with that. If they want to do a Viking funeral, go for it.

meatbringer
05-31-2013, 02:30 PM
Let me ask you this. If you are dead and it doesn't matter, what would the problem be if your wife/family wanted to have a religious gathering/ceremony, since it would be for them and not you? It couldn't hurt you as you're dead and wouldn't know the difference?

By the way, I don't care what they do with my body, either, since I'll no longer be in it. I can be buried, burned, chopped into little pieces. Having a religious ceremony for me won't do any good since I've already had all my chances to repent so, in my view, my judgment has already been determined.

And please, an honest answer as I'm not looking for an argument, I'm looking for a discussion.

The funeral is for you. It is to grieve your death and celebrate your life, why do it in a fashion that would be against your wishes? That makes no sense. If you died, would you want a Wiccan ceremony? Of course you wouldn't. My wife wouldn't want religion involved because she is not religious. The rest of my family would have to respect what I wanted. Of course I would be dead and not realize what kind of funeral it was, but it is about respect. How about everyone just stands around and pisses on the corpse? The dead don't know. How about we just let those nut job baptists protest everyone's funeral? My family knows I am not religious, and they would respect that. For the people who are religious, say a stupid prayer IN YOUR HEAD.

This is the same argument that started the whole religious debate on the forum, and you still just think every gathering should have a religious presence. Wow.

meatbringer
05-31-2013, 02:31 PM
You misunderstood. I wasn't saying everyone should have a religious presence. As a matter of fact, I said I don't care. I'll be dead. My soul will no longer be in my body. If my family wants to have a Wican ceremony, I'm fine with that. If they want to do a Viking funeral, go for it.

That's completely disrespectful and just sh*ts on the person the funeral is for. If you lived your life as a Christian, why would your family and friends do anything EXCEPT have a christian service for you. The funeral is for the deceased, the wake is for the family to hang out. So you don't think denying someone their final wish after they die is disrespectful?
Many of my relatives who died are christian, and they had christian funerals. Fine. Not a word out of my mouth. It is their funeral, their wishes, etc. To do otherwise is just as disrespectful as the baptist protests.

sandsjames
05-31-2013, 02:33 PM
The funeral is for you. It is to grieve your death and celebrate your life, why do it in a fashion that would be against your wishes? That makes no sense. If you died, would you want a Wiccan ceremony? Of course you wouldn't. My wife wouldn't want religion involved because she is not religious. The rest of my family would have to respect what I wanted. Of course I would be dead and not realize what kind of funeral it was, but it is about respect. How about everyone just stands around and pisses on the corpse? The dead don't know. How about we just let those nut job baptists protest everyone's funeral? My family knows I am not religious, and they would respect that. For the people who are religious, say a stupid prayer IN YOUR HEAD.

This is the same argument that started the whole religious debate on the forum, and you still just think every gathering should have a religious presence. Wow.

You misunderstood. I wasn't saying everyone should have a religious presence. As a matter of fact, I said I don't care. I'll be dead. My soul will no longer be in my body. If my family wants to have a Wican ceremony, I'm fine with that. If they want to do a Viking funeral, go for it.

meatbringer
05-31-2013, 02:40 PM
You misunderstood. I wasn't saying everyone should have a religious presence. As a matter of fact, I said I don't care. I'll be dead. My soul will no longer be in my body. If my family wants to have a Wican ceremony, I'm fine with that. If they want to do a Viking funeral, go for it.

That's completely disrespectful and just sh*ts on the person the funeral is for. If you lived your life as a Christian, why would your family and friends do anything EXCEPT have a christian service for you. The funeral is for the deceased, the wake is for the family to hang out. So you don't think denying someone their final wish after they die is disrespectful?
Many of my relatives who died are christian, and they had christian funerals. Fine. Not a word out of my mouth. It is their funeral, their wishes, etc. To do otherwise is just as disrespectful as the baptist protests.

sandsjames
05-31-2013, 02:41 PM
That's completely disrespectful and just sh*ts on the person the funeral is for. If you lived your life as a Christian, why would your family and friends do anything EXCEPT have a christian service for you. The funeral is for the deceased, the wake is for the family to hang out. So you don't think denying someone their final wish after they die is disrespectful?


But you are dead. You have no consciousness. Why does it matter?

Absinthe Anecdote
05-31-2013, 03:02 PM
But you are dead. You have no consciousness. Why does it matter?

To the departed it means absolutely nothing of course; however, I think I see where Meatbringer is coming from.

It is a matter of showing your respect to the individual that you are memorializing; if you want to be sincere in your tribute you should stay within the confines of their wishes.

I gave the eulogy at my mother’s memorial service to avoid having my sister’s pastor speak as my mom did not want a religious service.

I was the only person to speak and I did agree to end the eulogy with the Lord’s Prayer.

Like I said in an earlier post this was for the benefit of my sister and I couldn’t imagine my mother saying no if she had saw my sister’s face when she asked me to do this.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-31-2013, 03:04 PM
It's not about whether a dead body cares or not, it is about your family and friends having a service for you that is both respectful, and reflects on how you lived your life. It is your family grieving you and showing respect. That's it. If that's the case, then why do we even have funerals? Just throw our bodies in the landfill or in a wood chipper. Take dead soldiers and donate their bodies to necrophiliacs. (Before everyone freaks out, I am not serious about that, obviously.) Hopefully, you do get the point though.

I get the feeling that you are barking up the wrong tree. I don't care if you burn, blowup, or do whatever with my body. I think funerals are stupid, but I also realize that my friends and family would never not have a service. So in that case, it is in my will to not have any religious affiliation in my funeral. Why waste Magic Sky Man words on me? It's just that religious people can't do without having religion in a gathering. It drives them insane, they need it. Hence how this whole debacle started.

I had to give my sister a pass on this but I do agree with you.

meatbringer
05-31-2013, 03:05 PM
But you are dead. You have no consciousness. Why does it matter?

It's not about whether a dead body cares or not, it is about your family and friends having a service for you that is both respectful, and reflects on how you lived your life. It is your family grieving you and showing respect. That's it. If that's the case, then why do we even have funerals? Just throw our bodies in the landfill or in a wood chipper. Take dead soldiers and donate their bodies to necrophiliacs. (Before everyone freaks out, I am not serious about that, obviously.) Hopefully, you do get the point though.

I get the feeling that you are barking up the wrong tree. I don't care if you burn, blowup, or do whatever with my body. I think funerals are stupid, but I also realize that my friends and family would never not have a service. So in that case, it is in my will to not have any religious affiliation in my funeral. Why waste Magic Sky Man words on me? It's just that religious people can't do without having religion in a gathering. It drives them insane, they need it. Hence how this whole debacle started.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-31-2013, 03:05 PM
It's not about whether a dead body cares or not, it is about your family and friends having a service for you that is both respectful, and reflects on how you lived your life. It is your family grieving you and showing respect. That's it. If that's the case, then why do we even have funerals? Just throw our bodies in the landfill or in a wood chipper. Take dead soldiers and donate their bodies to necrophiliacs. (Before everyone freaks out, I am not serious about that, obviously.) Hopefully, you do get the point though.

I get the feeling that you are barking up the wrong tree. I don't care if you burn, blowup, or do whatever with my body. I think funerals are stupid, but I also realize that my friends and family would never not have a service. So in that case, it is in my will to not have any religious affiliation in my funeral. Why waste Magic Sky Man words on me? It's just that religious people can't do without having religion in a gathering. It drives them insane, they need it. Hence how this whole debacle started.

I had to give my sister a pass on this but I do agree with you.

sandsjames
05-31-2013, 03:46 PM
It's not about whether a dead body cares or not, it is about your family and friends having a service for you that is both respectful, and reflects on how you lived your life. It is your family grieving you and showing respect. That's it. If that's the case, then why do we even have funerals? Just throw our bodies in the landfill or in a wood chipper. Take dead soldiers and donate their bodies to necrophiliacs. (Before everyone freaks out, I am not serious about that, obviously.) Hopefully, you do get the point though.

I get the feeling that you are barking up the wrong tree. I don't care if you burn, blowup, or do whatever with my body. I think funerals are stupid, but I also realize that my friends and family would never not have a service. So in that case, it is in my will to not have any religious affiliation in my funeral. Why waste Magic Sky Man words on me? It's just that religious people can't do without having religion in a gathering. It drives them insane, they need it. Hence how this whole debacle started.

I guess we'll agree to disagree, and that's fine. In my mind, the funeral is to help everyone else deal with a death and if it helps them to have a religious ceremony or an Avengers themed ceremony then I hope they do what helps them the most, because it doesn't matter to me.

meatbringer
05-31-2013, 03:49 PM
I had to give my sister a pass on this but I do agree with you.

Yeah, I read your post but didn't want to sound disrespectful about your situation, because that is a tough one. I have seen it so many times at gatherings and events that are not religiously affiliated. Someone always needs to chime in or put a little religious spin in the mix, even after being asked not to. They can't help it, they have been programed to do that.

That's a really tough call with your situation, though. Kind of messed up that your sister put you in that spot, especially if she knew what your mother wanted.

sandsjames
05-31-2013, 04:01 PM
And I absolutely understand where you are coming from. One question and I'm done with it....When a soldier dies and they handle the coffin with respect and have the whole ceremonious proceedings, do you think that is all just show for the people attending? If so, then why not just load all of the dead soldiers into a wheelbarrow and wheel them to the funeral home. Then they can have a nice little ceremony for the families. Nobody would be the wiser. I feel that how the dead are treated from the moment of death until they are buried underground is all a part of showing respect for them.

I do think it's show. I think it's a way to show the public that the military "cares" about it's military members. I also think it's mostly to give honor and pride to the family. There are instances where the body/remains are completely destroyed. The casket is merely a symbol.

People want to honor the dead because it makes them feel better. No act is unselfish. Why do I give to charity? If I really looked at it it's probably just as much because it makes me feel good as it is about helping someone else.

I know you said your done but I'd like to hear your thoughts on one more question. What if there is no family? What if you are a single guy with deceased parents, no siblings, etc? Is it necessary to have a funeral at all? If there's nobody to attend then are you any less "respected" by just being cremated and poured out on the ground?

meatbringer
05-31-2013, 04:04 PM
I guess we'll agree to disagree, and that's fine. In my mind, the funeral is to help everyone else deal with a death and if it helps them to have a religious ceremony or an Avengers themed ceremony then I hope they do what helps them the most, because it doesn't matter to me.

And I absolutely understand where you are coming from. One question and I'm done with it....When a soldier dies and they handle the coffin with respect and have the whole ceremonious proceedings, do you think that is all just show for the people attending? If so, then why not just load all of the dead soldiers into a wheelbarrow and wheel them to the funeral home. Then they can have a nice little ceremony for the families. Nobody would be the wiser. I feel that how the dead are treated from the moment of death until they are buried underground is all a part of showing respect for them.

I have some lame ass friends who like Dave Matthew's Band. I do not want Dave Matthew's Band playing at my funeral. It's my damn funeral, and I have spent my life hating Dave Matthew's Band. Completely disrespectful.

Pullinteeth
05-31-2013, 04:31 PM
This is incorrect. First, Parham put Seymour in charge of preaching to the black members of the congregation. He was taught by Parham, and groomed by him for this purpose. The church that rejected him, not Parham's church, was also of the Holiness movement - and rejected him, because they believed he hadn't received the gift of speaking in tongues.

Both Parham and Seymour were originally ordained as Methodists. The Holiness movement itself is an offshoot from Methodism.

The church that rejected Seymour, while of the Holiness movement, was still nominally Methodist.

http://www.azusastreet.org/WilliamJSeymour.htm

Reference, please. Because I have one saying the exact opposite.

http://www.azusastreet.org/WilliamJSeymour.htm

Which, again, is considered to be a Pentecostal sect; not a Baptist one.

Okay, here's what DO have:

He was known to have commended the Ku Klux Klan during his sermons.

http://books.google.com/books/about/Fields_white_unto_harvest.html?id=xFYvCM6iS7MC

Although not Klan related, he also believed in a doctrine call British Isrealism. Ever heard of the Black Hebrew Isrealites? They're basically the black version of British Isrealists.

http://oldlandmark.wordpress.com/2007/12/07/pentecostal-zionism-charles-fox-parham-and-the-lost-tribes-of-israel/

Your articles still don't support your assertation that;


Pentecostalism - with Assembly of God being its first and oldest sect (COGIC, or Church of God in Christ, came next when the eldest black man in the congregation was told to take the black members elsewhere and start his own church) -

And regardless of who you were talking about, above, William J. Seymour didn't start the CoGiC and he didn't start HIS church because he was kicked out of any other church...


William J Seymour is the man I'm talking about. We went off from Houston to Los Angeles, and spread Pentecostalism there. That’s there COGIC started, though technically the article isn't incorrect, because Charles Mason is listed as the founder, and he was a former Baptist. However, the beliefs of COGIC came directly from what Mason received from Seymour. COGIC IS considered a Pentecostal sect, and not a Baptist one.

Charles Parham was also a member of the Ku Klux Klan. He joined in 1910. I'm not sure if, back in his day, the KKK wasn't as bad back then as they were in the in 1950's or 60's; but this is what I'm able to dig up.

Anecdotal "evidence" doesn't really work for me when you claim someone is a pedophile and a KKK member... I can SAY anything I want on the internet, I can even make it look good, that doesn't make it true.

Just because someone learned something from someone doesn't mean that that person gets credit for their future creations. Sure Mason listened to Seymour once upon a time. That doesn't mean that Seymour created the CoGiC. It also doesn't mean that the founders of the CoGiC were pentacostal because they were BAPTIST.

Here are a few more sites for your review...

http://www.healingandrevival.com/BioCFParham.htm
http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/charles-fox-parham/history.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Fox_Parham
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Seymour

Absinthe Anecdote
05-31-2013, 04:32 PM
I do think it's show. I think it's a way to show the public that the military "cares" about it's military members. I also think it's mostly to give honor and pride to the family. There are instances where the body/remains are completely destroyed. The casket is merely a symbol.

People want to honor the dead because it makes them feel better. No act is unselfish. Why do I give to charity? If I really looked at it it's probably just as much because it makes me feel good as it is about helping someone else.

I know you said your done but I'd like to hear your thoughts on one more question. What if there is no family? What if you are a single guy with deceased parents, no siblings, etc? Is it necessary to have a funeral at all? If there's nobody to attend then are you any less "respected" by just being cremated and poured out on the ground?

I got that grave plot, I got that grave plot
I got that grave plot, it’s right off the highway

Wobble dee, wobble dee drop into my grave plot
You afraid of death? Well I’m afraid not
‘Cause I got the bomb spot right off the highway
I did it my way, a very small percent of the time range
I got my coffin picked out
Styrofoam painted like wood, tricked out
It’s even got handles to lower me smooth
And my tomb stone only has minimal typos

sandsjames
05-31-2013, 04:43 PM
Sandjames believes that if you don't worship Magic Sky Man, you must be a barbarian - because there is no one scaring you into acting civilized.

We show respect for fallen Soldiers because they've earned it, not because some magic dude up in the clouds demands it. Magic Sky Man - at best - let them die. At worst he killed them as part of his "divine plan."

Again, this is why I'll never discuss religion with you again. He and I are having a perfectly good conversation, sharing our points of view, then you come in spouting your crap.

meatbringer
05-31-2013, 04:44 PM
I do think it's show. I think it's a way to show the public that the military "cares" about it's military members. I also think it's mostly to give honor and pride to the family. There are instances where the body/remains are completely destroyed. The casket is merely a symbol.

People want to honor the dead because it makes them feel better. No act is unselfish. Why do I give to charity? If I really looked at it it's probably just as much because it makes me feel good as it is about helping someone else.

I know you said your done but I'd like to hear your thoughts on one more question. What if there is no family? What if you are a single guy with deceased parents, no siblings, etc? Is it necessary to have a funeral at all? If there's nobody to attend then are you any less "respected" by just being cremated and poured out on the ground?

You are not any less respected by being cremated and poured on the ground if that is what you want, or if you make it known beforehand that you don't care. I'm just saying that if someone were to go against your wishes for your funeral, it's disrespectful.

I have no idea what happens if someone has no friends or family to arrange a funeral. What happens to homeless people? I don't know.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-31-2013, 04:50 PM
Sandjames believes that if you don't worship Magic Sky Man, you must be a barbarian - because there is no one scaring you into acting civilized.

We show respect for fallen Soldiers because they've earned it, not because some magic dude up in the clouds demands it. Magic Sky Man - at best - let them die. At worst he killed them as part of his "divine plan."

I know Sandsjames counts himself amongst the ranks of the believers but I wasn’t getting that vibe from him at all in this conversation.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-31-2013, 04:54 PM
You are not any less respected by being cremated and poured on the ground if that is what you want, or if you make it known beforehand that you don't care. I'm just saying that if someone were to go against your wishes for your funeral, it's disrespectful.

I have no idea what happens if someone has no friends or family to arrange a funeral. What happens to homeless people? I don't know.

In Maryland they are cremated and buried on the grounds of an old state hospital in an unmarked grave.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-31-2013, 07:34 PM
Is that right? Well let's take a look:







Your viewpoints (which I'm guessing you got from Fox News, the Blaze, or some equivalent religious news source) - date back to at least the 1930s, when secularism was increasingly starting to scare religious fundamentalists.

One example that comes to mind is the combat death of Oliver Law - the first known American black battalion commander to ever command white troops in battle, in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. Not only as a black man, but also a fighter in a socialist secular movement - religious Conservatives were afraid of him and his accomplishments - and immediately spread baseless rumors that he had been fragged by his own men, and they had defecated on his body.

In the mind of a fundamentalist, atheists - especially the "lesser races" - are incapable of respect or human decency, so it is important to spread disinformation to reinforce this fervent belief.

Please explain to me how that was relevant to the conversation of all those SJ quotes you just pulled.

The gist of the conversation involved following the deceased last wishes as opposed to having a ceremony that provided comfort to the family.

At least that’s what I took away from it.

Why is Oliver Law, Fox News, and The Blaze relevant?

Please explain because this atheist is truly baffled by your connection.

Other than your assertion that SJ get his marching orders from the Blaze and Fox, I don’t get it.

PS

You do realize there is an atheist liberal section in wacky land, don’t you?

sandsjames
05-31-2013, 10:59 PM
Is that right? Well let's take a look:







Your viewpoints (which I'm guessing you got from Fox News, the Blaze, or some equivalent religious news source) - date back to at least the 1930s, when secularism was increasingly starting to scare religious fundamentalists.

One example that comes to mind is the combat death of Oliver Law - the first known American black battalion commander to ever command white troops in battle, in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. Not only as a black man, but also a fighter in a socialist secular movement - religious Conservatives were afraid of him and his accomplishments - and immediately spread baseless rumors that he had been fragged by his own men, and they had defecated on his body.

In the mind of a fundamentalist, atheists - especially the "lesser races" - are incapable of respect or human decency, so it is important to spread disinformation to reinforce this fervent belief.

What???? Are you in the middle of your own conversation here?

- - - Updated - - -


SJ is alleging that without mythology, there is no need for proper burial, one of the key customs that separates us from (most) other animals.

I'm pointing out that this type of brainwashed hysteria is nothing new - Christians have been peddling this nonsense for a long time - Oliver Law is a classic example. Not just an atheist, but also an African American (So this also plays into the racial inferiority thing that you see very often in Christian fundamentalism) - so there was a huge propaganda effort on the religious right to repaint his story as one of amoral godless negro beasts.

No, that's not what I'm alleging. I'm saying that in my opinion what happens to my body after I'm dead doesn't matter. I'm saying that in my opinion funerals take place in order to help the family of the dead, not to show respect to the dead. It's a way to help the family cope. I wasn't talking about religion at all. I was saying that if my family chooses to have a funeral presided over by Iron Man and have my body crushed into little pieces by a replica of Thor's hammer than I am perfectly ok with that. I won't feel disrespected. I'll be dead. Whatever makes it easier for family/friends to cope with the death is what I think a funeral should be.

- - - Updated - - -


I know Sandsjames counts himself amongst the ranks of the believers but I wasn’t getting that vibe from him at all in this conversation.

Thank you. I've given up trying to argue what Joe believes that I believe.