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omertalifestyle
05-25-2013, 08:03 AM
I know we have a PT thread now, but this is only related to it as far as the reason I was demoted.

So it's been over a year now since the demotion has taken effect. That one decision caused a chain reaction of things that no one person should have to endure, I don't care what they did. So I've PCSed to Korea, and I DON'T have any issue with that, I like the assignment. However because of the demotion, I was already over HYT and thus cannot re-enlist or extend my contract. Even though assignments knew I didn't have enough retainability to go to Korea, they sent me anyways and I've been here for a few months and have been told that I will have to finish the rest of my enlistment here (20+ months). That was a fun conversation with the wife!

Then I receive an email from AFPC that stated that my DOS had been adjusted (not because of DOS rollbacks), to match my HYT. So 29 Sept 2013 is my new DOS, which is way different from the November 2014 DOS I had before. On top of that, I'm being put through an MEB for the very issue that caused my PT fail that resulted in my demotion.

Oh and then there is the little package I sent off to the AFBCMR or the Air Force Board for Correction of Military Records for those that don't do well with acronyms. Being that I brought up the ankle issues and MRI results and letters from my doctor to my commander and was pretty much ignored by every level of my chain of command at my last base, I decided to put this package together using the same information. This was the response I got from them

"Deny relief sought by the applicant to remove the FA dated 15 Feb 2012 in AFFMS (Not removing the entire test); however, recommend exempting cardio component. (re-score test based on pushups, situps, and waist which would result in test being a pass with 85.5). The MTF validated applicant had an ankle injury that affected his ability to perform the cardio portion; there is no evidence that indicates any other portion should be invalidated or exempted. Even though the commander has not invalidated assessment, it is obvious member should not have completed all components."

So based on that, and if the final decision goes my way, I will be getting my rank back, however I will still be med boarded for the issue and possibly separated over it.

Just wanted to put that out there to those that stated that my demotion was justified and validated and what not. The information I provided to them was the exact same information I provided to my last commander and he chose to ignore it. Even my chain of command here could not figure out why he did what he did, it is one thing to demote someone, it is another thing to demote someone and throw everything else that you can at them to ensure that their career is ruined under the guise that you are trying to "save their career"

Now I may be getting back pay and based on what the AFI says, a possible promotion to TSgt because I never stopped fighting. Lesson to all, you cannot lay down and take this crap anyone, you have to fight every single day until you are finally heard.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
05-25-2013, 09:52 AM
Good for you for not giving up!

JD2780
05-25-2013, 11:08 AM
Congrats dude.

Greg
05-25-2013, 11:47 AM
Glad you had the intestinal fortitude, and determination to follow through.

Mr. Happy
05-25-2013, 01:10 PM
Your experience with the AF fitness program as you described it is all that is wrong with it to me; too unforgiving, too rigid and no ability for leadership to apply common sense discretion. No failure on any test should put people through what you went through/are going though. A 20 month tour to Korea away from family??? How much more insensitive could the AF had been...what bullshit. I bet if you had failed a few QA spot checks you wouldn't of had to experience any of this. I don't have a problem with the whole fitness thing in of itself, but the Air Force has F'd it up so bad in administering the program, it has made something that should be a positive encouragement thing into a nasty dreadful thing. When I retire, I'll never jog another mile and a half, or do one more GD push up or sit up ever again...just out of spite.

Way to hang tough brother.

imported_Shove_your_stupid_meeting
05-25-2013, 03:38 PM
This program is still a joke. Good for you for not giving up and it paying off.

BOSS302
05-25-2013, 03:46 PM
A 20 month tour to Korea away from family??? How much more insensitive could the AF had been...what bullshit.



The end-result of limp-wristed, soft-bellied "managers". Not a single true leader in the process.

RobotChicken
05-25-2013, 05:22 PM
:rain :tape:sad:sad :sorry

Vrake
05-25-2013, 05:40 PM
I can't even imagine a system that demotes you over a failure. Least on the squid side you get three failures before they separate you. Even then you can game the system if you know the right people. I've done it just not to be bothered with the whole test thing, even though I can pass at any time.

VFFTSGT
05-25-2013, 05:57 PM
I know we have a PT thread now, but this is only related to it as far as the reason I was demoted.

So it's been over a year now since the demotion has taken effect. That one decision caused a chain reaction of things that no one person should have to endure, I don't care what they did. So I've PCSed to Korea, and I DON'T have any issue with that, I like the assignment. However because of the demotion, I was already over HYT and thus cannot re-enlist or extend my contract. Even though assignments knew I didn't have enough retainability to go to Korea, they sent me anyways and I've been here for a few months and have been told that I will have to finish the rest of my enlistment here (20+ months). That was a fun conversation with the wife!

Then I receive an email from AFPC that stated that my DOS had been adjusted (not because of DOS rollbacks), to match my HYT. So 29 Sept 2013 is my new DOS, which is way different from the November 2014 DOS I had before. On top of that, I'm being put through an MEB for the very issue that caused my PT fail that resulted in my demotion.

Oh and then there is the little package I sent off to the AFBCMR or the Air Force Board for Correction of Military Records for those that don't do well with acronyms. Being that I brought up the ankle issues and MRI results and letters from my doctor to my commander and was pretty much ignored by every level of my chain of command at my last base, I decided to put this package together using the same information. This was the response I got from them

"Deny relief sought by the applicant to remove the FA dated 15 Feb 2012 in AFFMS (Not removing the entire test); however, recommend exempting cardio component. (re-score test based on pushups, situps, and waist which would result in test being a pass with 85.5). The MTF validated applicant had an ankle injury that affected his ability to perform the cardio portion; there is no evidence that indicates any other portion should be invalidated or exempted. Even though the commander has not invalidated assessment, it is obvious member should not have completed all components."

So based on that, and if the final decision goes my way, I will be getting my rank back, however I will still be med boarded for the issue and possibly separated over it.

Just wanted to put that out there to those that stated that my demotion was justified and validated and what not. The information I provided to them was the exact same information I provided to my last commander and he chose to ignore it. Even my chain of command here could not figure out why he did what he did, it is one thing to demote someone, it is another thing to demote someone and throw everything else that you can at them to ensure that their career is ruined under the guise that you are trying to "save their career"

Now I may be getting back pay and based on what the AFI says, a possible promotion to TSgt because I never stopped fighting. Lesson to all, you cannot lay down and take this crap anyone, you have to fight every single day until you are finally heard.

What's sad about this is your previous commander will suffer ZERO consequences as a result of being wrong. He will continue his AF career screwing people over. Just like doctor's who misdiagnose you - they don't care about the outcome that correctly diagnosed you and fixed you.

garhkal
05-25-2013, 06:33 PM
What's sad about this is your previous commander will suffer ZERO consequences as a result of being wrong. He will continue his AF career screwing people over. Just like doctor's who misdiagnose you - they don't care about the outcome that correctly diagnosed you and fixed you.

YUP. Or just like a doctor that has a mishap in the operating room that takes someone's wrong leg or any of a long list of crap.

omertalifestyle
05-25-2013, 07:37 PM
Hmmm. I just did a report on the Feres Doctrine. The government is full of a bunch of Kings who claim...they can do no wrong.

tiredretiredE7
05-26-2013, 02:28 AM
I know we have a PT thread now, but this is only related to it as far as the reason I was demoted.

So it's been over a year now since the demotion has taken effect. That one decision caused a chain reaction of things that no one person should have to endure, I don't care what they did. So I've PCSed to Korea, and I DON'T have any issue with that, I like the assignment. However because of the demotion, I was already over HYT and thus cannot re-enlist or extend my contract. Even though assignments knew I didn't have enough retainability to go to Korea, they sent me anyways and I've been here for a few months and have been told that I will have to finish the rest of my enlistment here (20+ months). That was a fun conversation with the wife!

Then I receive an email from AFPC that stated that my DOS had been adjusted (not because of DOS rollbacks), to match my HYT. So 29 Sept 2013 is my new DOS, which is way different from the November 2014 DOS I had before. On top of that, I'm being put through an MEB for the very issue that caused my PT fail that resulted in my demotion.

Oh and then there is the little package I sent off to the AFBCMR or the Air Force Board for Correction of Military Records for those that don't do well with acronyms. Being that I brought up the ankle issues and MRI results and letters from my doctor to my commander and was pretty much ignored by every level of my chain of command at my last base, I decided to put this package together using the same information. This was the response I got from them

"Deny relief sought by the applicant to remove the FA dated 15 Feb 2012 in AFFMS (Not removing the entire test); however, recommend exempting cardio component. (re-score test based on pushups, situps, and waist which would result in test being a pass with 85.5). The MTF validated applicant had an ankle injury that affected his ability to perform the cardio portion; there is no evidence that indicates any other portion should be invalidated or exempted. Even though the commander has not invalidated assessment, it is obvious member should not have completed all components."

So based on that, and if the final decision goes my way, I will be getting my rank back, however I will still be med boarded for the issue and possibly separated over it.

Just wanted to put that out there to those that stated that my demotion was justified and validated and what not. The information I provided to them was the exact same information I provided to my last commander and he chose to ignore it. Even my chain of command here could not figure out why he did what he did, it is one thing to demote someone, it is another thing to demote someone and throw everything else that you can at them to ensure that their career is ruined under the guise that you are trying to "save their career"

Now I may be getting back pay and based on what the AFI says, a possible promotion to TSgt because I never stopped fighting. Lesson to all, you cannot lay down and take this crap anyone, you have to fight every single day until you are finally heard.

The "service before self" core value really means "self help AF". I am glad to see you are making progress. It is too bad your CoC did not fight for you as is their responsibility. Again, the new AF does not want any leadership in the enlisted ranks, just management of EPRs, Decs and anything that could make the wing slides. I wish I was a GS on your base so I could give your E9 a few choice words. I had and still have a ankle with ligaments FUBARED so I can relate.

garhkal
05-26-2013, 06:09 AM
Hmmm. I just did a report on the Feres Doctrine. The government is full of a bunch of Kings who claim...they can do no wrong.

Was that report for a college course? If so, is there a chance it can get posted online somewhere to be read?

omertalifestyle
05-26-2013, 11:12 AM
Was that report for a college course? If so, is there a chance it can get posted online somewhere to be read?

Yes it was, however I didn't use my own experience for the paper. I cited documents and news reports that were pertinent to the case. I did use one person's personal experience, however, I had written permission to use their situation in my paper. Being that it was a classical argument, I took all personal feelings out of the paper and let the information gathered speak for itself. I don't know if it will be posted online and my instructor has not told me that it will be posted. The class is a basic English composition course.

garhkal
05-27-2013, 05:45 AM
Hope you do well in that course.

wildman
05-27-2013, 07:13 PM
What I don't get is the demotion. Under what rule(s), reg, or article of the UCMJ did that take place? When I retired the big thing was the weight control program, but all they could do was separate the individual under the conditions of unadaptability to military life. Glad to see the correction to military records still works. I also would like to know why the area defense council did not appear to be of any help to you.

Always
Wildman, Tsgt USAF, retired

VFFTSGT
05-27-2013, 08:28 PM
What I don't get is the demotion. Under what rule(s), reg, or article of the UCMJ did that take place? When I retired the big thing was the weight control program, but all they could do was separate the individual under the conditions of unadaptability to military life. Glad to see the correction to military records still works. I also would like to know why the area defense council did not appear to be of any help to you.

Always
Wildman, Tsgt USAF, retired

Welcome to the modern Air Force.

UCMJ Article 92

Review AFI 36-2905

1.26.1. Maintains individual year-round physical fitness through self-directed and unit-based fitness programs and proper nutrition standards IAW Chapter 2.

And Attachment 19

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2905/afi36-2905.pdf

omertalifestyle
05-27-2013, 09:30 PM
Welcome to the modern Air Force.

UCMJ Article 92

Review AFI 36-2905

1.26.1. Maintains individual year-round physical fitness through self-directed and unit-based fitness programs and proper nutrition standards IAW Chapter 2.

And Attachment 19

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2905/afi36-2905.pdf

The problem I had with this is that when it comes to the decisions made by commanders, self-directed PT means nothing, even if you had an exercise log and a gym partner that could validate what you were doing for the test. If you didn't go to the unit PT program you weren't doing enough. Why would I go to a PT program that is run by a bunch of people that know how to train at their own fitness level, but not your fitness level. When I started running I was at 16+ minutes because of pain and being out of that high impact shape that I had been in only 5 months prior, I actually got myself down to under 14 minutes by the time the test had come around, but the ankle wasn't strong enough for what I was trying to do and was re-injured. Yes I screwed up by not stopping and going to the clinic right then, but this was pain that I had been dealing with and was told that it wasn't that big of an issue. After I failed the test and before I was put on the profile that I am still on now, I was made to go to the commander directed PT program, it was there that I suffered further injury because since I was not on a profile and was facing possible demotion, I couldn't just say I can't do the exercises. I also had an issue with the fact that he put me in the same category as all the other people that had a full 6-12 months to train for the PT test, I was unable to even walk correctly for 3 months after the injury, and could barely run when I started to force myself because I knew I had the upcoming test. The medical "professional" at the time did me no favors by suggesting that the only way I would get better was to run on it. Had they actually done MRIs from the beginning and saw the severity of the damage they could have prevented this whole thing from happening.

BOSS302
05-27-2013, 09:45 PM
Why would I go to a PT program that is run by a bunch of people that know how to train at their own fitness level, but not your fitness level.

I consider myself to be in good shape. Having said that, I have found myself at odds with the physical training "leaders" during squadron PT many times. Some of the shit they come up with is silly. One of the silliest exercises they had people doing were "crab walks" from one end of the field to the other. I chose instead to sprint to one end & drop for push-ups until the rest of the crab-walkers arrived. When challenged by a hero, I politely explained the stupidity of such an exercise - both the exercise itself & the expectation of doing such an exercise over the course of a football field.

I give the same leeway to the airmen and my peers; if they do not want to do one of the "flavor of the week" exercises thought up by a physical training "leader", that's fine so long as they are doing something to maintain an acceptable workout. I find push-ups, planks, mountain climbers, and/or flutter kicks (if done right to avoid lower-back issues) to be a suitable substitute for the dumb-assery of some physical training "leaders".

RobotChicken
05-27-2013, 09:46 PM
:clock AHHhhhhh, the new PC Military Management style seems too be working, just don't get shot in a war zone without your reflector belt, get blamed for that too; purple heart? Getta outta here, Com'on...man!! :frusty

omertalifestyle
05-27-2013, 09:47 PM
What I don't get is the demotion. Under what rule(s), reg, or article of the UCMJ did that take place? When I retired the big thing was the weight control program, but all they could do was separate the individual under the conditions of unadaptability to military life. Glad to see the correction to military records still works. I also would like to know why the area defense council did not appear to be of any help to you.

Always
Wildman, Tsgt USAF, retired

Wildman,

Both times that I have had to use the ADC have pretty much shown me that they are nothing more than editors for the responses and letters that you must write. Unless you are going through a major court martial, they are absolutely useless. No matter how much information I gave to them, they told me the same thing over and over again, my stripe is gone and just to accept it. The days of people having your back are over, might as well just stand up and let yourself get shot because the guy next to you is going to run when shit gets rough.

imported_DannyJ
05-27-2013, 10:44 PM
I consider myself to be in good shape. Having said that, I have found myself at odds with the physical training "leaders" during squadron PT many times. Some of the shit they come up with is silly. One of the silliest exercises they had people doing were "crab walks" from one end of the field to the other. I chose instead to sprint to one end & drop for push-ups until the rest of the crab-walkers arrived. When challenged by a hero, I politely explained the stupidity of such an exercise - both the exercise itself & the expectation of doing such an exercise over the course of a football field.

I give the same leeway to the airmen and my peers; if they do not want to do one of the "flavor of the week" exercises thought up by a physical training "leader", that's fine so long as they are doing something to maintain an acceptable workout. I find push-ups, planks, mountain climbers, and/or flutter kicks (if done right to avoid lower-back issues) to be a suitable substitute for the dumb-assery of some physical training "leaders".

This!!! Here we have a problem with gym class heros and former track stars. I litterally explained to one of them that I graduated from high school 15 F*CKING years ago and had no intention of trying to keep up with his dumbass after he got in my face about "motivation". I know my fitness level and body well enough to know what to do, and how to do it in order to stay in shape enough to pass. I stand a MUCH higher chance of injuring myself trying to do some of the ridiculousness that goes on with the under 25 crowd than I do at self paced PT. Such is the state of AF PT.

VFFTSGT
05-27-2013, 11:31 PM
The problem I had with this is that when it comes to the decisions made by commanders, self-directed PT means nothing, even if you had an exercise log and a gym partner that could validate what you were doing for the test. If you didn't go to the unit PT program you weren't doing enough. Why would I go to a PT program that is run by a bunch of people that know how to train at their own fitness level, but not your fitness level. When I started running I was at 16+ minutes because of pain and being out of that high impact shape that I had been in only 5 months prior, I actually got myself down to under 14 minutes by the time the test had come around, but the ankle wasn't strong enough for what I was trying to do and was re-injured. Yes I screwed up by not stopping and going to the clinic right then, but this was pain that I had been dealing with and was told that it wasn't that big of an issue. After I failed the test and before I was put on the profile that I am still on now, I was made to go to the commander directed PT program, it was there that I suffered further injury because since I was not on a profile and was facing possible demotion, I couldn't just say I can't do the exercises. I also had an issue with the fact that he put me in the same category as all the other people that had a full 6-12 months to train for the PT test, I was unable to even walk correctly for 3 months after the injury, and could barely run when I started to force myself because I knew I had the upcoming test. The medical "professional" at the time did me no favors by suggesting that the only way I would get better was to run on it. Had they actually done MRIs from the beginning and saw the severity of the damage they could have prevented this whole thing from happening.

Oh I hear you, I was just answering that one question because it sounds like wildman has been out of the AF for a while.

I think you know I hate the AF PT program as it is administered.

The irony is...

Your PCM probably did not get you a MRI ordered because they are "expensive." They were trying to save money because they did not think you (and the rest of the AF) have legitimate medical issues.

Considering Tricare only pays ~$200 for a MRI; they are not really expensive. You have spent far more than that righting the wrong done against you.

That PCM might have saved a couple hundred, but it cost the AF several thousand.

I think once I am out I am going to become a very active activist to support the abolishment of the Feres Doctrine. Military medical professionals need to start accepting responsibility for their malpractices.

RobotChicken
05-27-2013, 11:58 PM
:usa2 Sounds GREAT! Now if we could just hold officers and DC too the same standard..:clock

tiredretiredE7
05-28-2013, 01:59 AM
Oh I hear you, I was just answering that one question because it sounds like wildman has been out of the AF for a while.

I think you know I hate the AF PT program as it is administered.

The irony is...

Your PCM probably did not get you a MRI ordered because they are "expensive." They were trying to save money because they did not think you (and the rest of the AF) have legitimate medical issues.

Considering Tricare only pays ~$200 for a MRI; they are not really expensive. You have spent far more than that righting the wrong done against you.

That PCM might have saved a couple hundred, but it cost the AF several thousand.

I think once I am out I am going to become a very active activist to support the abolishment of the Feres Doctrine. Military medical professionals need to start accepting responsibility for their malpractices.

The Feres Doctrine was initially written to protect the military from being sued by troops due to a military doctors inability to put somebody back together after being blown to pieces and surviving. An example is a troop gets their leg blown off from an IED but the doc is unable to attach it. Theoretically, the troop would be able to sue the doc from something the doc could not do in any environment. Then the Top Brass/Congress decided to apply the Feres Doctrine to all medical procedures in the military conducted on troops due to the excessive amount of inept doctors who were butchering troops. I refer to the Feres Doctrine as the Feces Doctrine because it is used to treat troops like shit after a doc makes an obvious mistake. The Feres Doctrine needs to be eliminated and the quacks kicked out of the military.

RobotChicken
05-28-2013, 02:13 AM
:thumb:thumb:thumb:thumb:thumb

garhkal
05-28-2013, 05:13 AM
I consider myself to be in good shape. Having said that, I have found myself at odds with the physical training "leaders" during squadron PT many times. Some of the shit they come up with is silly. One of the silliest exercises they had people doing were "crab walks" from one end of the field to the other. I chose instead to sprint to one end & drop for push-ups until the rest of the crab-walkers arrived. When challenged by a hero, I politely explained the stupidity of such an exercise - both the exercise itself & the expectation of doing such an exercise over the course of a football field.

I give the same leeway to the airmen and my peers; if they do not want to do one of the "flavor of the week" exercises thought up by a physical training "leader", that's fine so long as they are doing something to maintain an acceptable workout. I find push-ups, planks, mountain climbers, and/or flutter kicks (if done right to avoid lower-back issues) to be a suitable substitute for the dumb-assery of some physical training "leaders".

And the part i find funny is how certain exercises we have done since the dawn of time it seems, are now onn the 'do not do' list..
Like flutter kicks, cherry pickers..


This!!! Here we have a problem with gym class heros and former track stars. I litterally explained to one of them that I graduated from high school 15 F*CKING years ago and had no intention of trying to keep up with his dumbass after he got in my face about "motivation". I know my fitness level and body well enough to know what to do, and how to do it in order to stay in shape enough to pass. I stand a MUCH higher chance of injuring myself trying to do some of the ridiculousness that goes on with the under 25 crowd than I do at self paced PT. Such is the state of AF PT.

Just like clint's character in some of his films, we had a master chief (mid 50s almost) who could run his slow but steady pace for a good 10+ miles without issues.. Some of the just out of HS crowd (and even a pair of so called track stars) staying at HIS pace could not keep up, but gave him jibes cause he (30+ years their elder) could not sprint or go as fast as they could..


The Feres Doctrine needs to be eliminated and the quacks kicked out of the military.

Or my personal fave.. start having all those crap doctors SOLEY work on congress members.. and see how they love getting fraked over by inept doctors.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
05-28-2013, 09:48 AM
What's sad about this is your previous commander will suffer ZERO consequences as a result of being wrong.

Is it possible the CC made a decision based on the best info he had at the time, much of which probably came from his Shirt, Chief, etc? I'm not defending a potential D-bag, but just pointing out how easy it is to judge someone who's shoes you never walked in.

JD2780
05-28-2013, 11:34 AM
And the part i find funny is how certain exercises we have done since the dawn of time it seems, are now onn the 'do not do' list..
Like flutter kicks, cherry pickers..



Just like clint's character in some of his films, we had a master chief (mid 50s almost) who could run his slow but steady pace for a good 10+ miles without issues.. Some of the just out of HS crowd (and even a pair of so called track stars) staying at HIS pace could not keep up, but gave him jibes cause he (30+ years their elder) could not sprint or go as fast as they could..



Or my personal fave.. start having all those crap doctors SOLEY work on congress members.. and see how they love getting fraked over by inept doctors.

Career fields that do PT every day as part of their job still do flutter kicks, cherry pickers, push-ups and sit ups. The problem is they aren't faddish so many PTLs don't like them. You do need to do them correctly to avoid injury. That's no different than walking.

The Chiefs, Commanders and Drs are the problems at this point. Not a single person is willing to lay it on the line for the folks they're supposed to. I'm not saying if the guy is obviously a fat body and has shown no ambition to better themselves should they fight for this person. If the person has shown the drive then fight for them. Drs are being pushed to limit the amount of profiles. No there aren't any memorandums or direct orders to limit profiles, but we all know what's happening. Some docs still help their people some don't. My experience has been many flight docs are just medical hobbyists while family practice docs seem to give a damn.

CrustySMSgt
05-28-2013, 11:46 AM
I'm not saying if the guy is obviously a fat body and has shown no ambition to better themselves should they fight for this person. If the person has shown the drive then fight for them.

I'm 100% down for laying it on the line (and I have) for someone who's obviously giving their all. Unfortunately, in my experience, there have been FAR more cases of those who do nothing, continue to slack off when excercising and eat like shit and then wonder why their score doesn't change.

JD2780
05-28-2013, 11:51 AM
I'm 100% down for laying it on the line (and I have) for someone who's obviously giving their all. Unfortunately, in my experience, there have been FAR more cases of those who do nothing, continue to slack off when excercising and eat like shit and then wonder why their score doesn't change.

I can certainly see that. Had one maintenance guy at a unit I was at go through that. He decided not to change until it was too late.

coloringoutsidethelines
05-28-2013, 11:56 AM
Wildman,

Both times that I have had to use the ADC have pretty much shown me that they are nothing more than editors for the responses and letters that you must write. Unless you are going through a major court martial, they are absolutely useless. No matter how much information I gave to them, they told me the same thing over and over again, my stripe is gone and just to accept it. The days of people having your back are over, might as well just stand up and let yourself get shot because the guy next to you is going to run when shit gets rough.

I have to throw in my advice here skip the ADC and get yourself a real lawyer. Any decent lawyer will hand a military lawyer their butt in a sling. I have seen folks who were even wrong get off clean because of this a few times. The ADC will not fight for you the way a real lawyer will.

20+Years
05-28-2013, 12:36 PM
Just for clarification for some of you who don't know... the AF takes a stripe after 3 failures in a 2 year period, not just 1 random failure. On the 4 failure, typically, its a discharge.

I am extremely proud of the OP here, you are laying ground work for the entire AF to fight back on this misused program. I will be very interested to see if they reverse the demotion now that a "pass" is inserted in the time period. If so, the door will be open for a lot of people to request corrections. Best of luck and good job sticking to your guns!

omertalifestyle
05-28-2013, 01:10 PM
Just for clarification for some of you who don't know... the AF takes a stripe after 3 failures in a 2 year period, not just 1 random failure. On the 4 failure, typically, its a discharge.

I am extremely proud of the OP here, you are laying ground work for the entire AF to fight back on this misused program. I will be very interested to see if they reverse the demotion now that a "pass" is inserted in the time period. If so, the door will be open for a lot of people to request corrections. Best of luck and good job sticking to your guns!

I'm not taking a shot at you for your post, however, it is factually incorrect. The AFI states that commanders have the discretion to set the punishment as they see fit for any failure. So technically a commander could demote someone over one fail. At my last base yes 3 times in 24 months is was the normal grounds for demotion. When I failed this test the first fail that was counted against me was set to drop off the record two weeks later. By the time the demotion had actually taken effect, my 24 month record was only 2 fails. At my current base, that number is 4 fails before demotion. It is not standardized from base to base or even unit to unit. That is why you will see some people say in FSS fail 6 times and not get touched, but AMXS or SFS will get hammered on a 3rd or 4th time.

Also, The information I sent to the record correction board was the EXACT same information that the commander had when he made his decision, unless of course he didn't receive all the information since my 1st Sgt at the time basically was cheering for demotion. I'm not the only person that went through this. One friend I know had to go before a P&R Board after a 4th fail, he brought all of his medical information up that he had given to the same commander. They made the commander testify before the board, and the commander didn't know a single thing about the medical issues.

I'm not saying that all commanders are assholes or douchebags, but there are times where commanders need to look at the whole airman and make a decision based on that, not just one sliver of what he knows about that Airman. Decisions that they make like this can have catastrophic effects on Airmen. I've been through quite a bit because of this, and I have been told that people are highly impressed with the way I have handled the situation. Was I ever pissed off? Yes. Did I ever take it out on anyone else? No. It did however refocus my attention that the Air Force is not nearly as important to me as it once was.

I used to think I would do 20 years or even more, but now I really don't have the drive to do it. My wife doesn't feel like she can handle the military lifestyle anymore either (she was a Marine brat before we got married, and has been a part of a military family for over 25 years). I remember a time where I felt like the Air Force would take care of me or my family when things got rough. However, the financial bind that we were put in, set us back financially 3-4 years from our goal of being out of debt. That is something that has further soured me on the Air Force, for years I have seen people get re-enlistment bonuses and awesome TDY pay and get windfalls of money from everywhere you can imagine...I never got any of that, because it wasn't what was important to me, the ability to serve and do my job was the important part. I re-enlisted when there was no bonus, I passed up the good TDYs so that younger guys could go. If my inability to run is really that important, then I don't belong in the Air Force, my experience and drive to complete the mission really doesn't matter anymore.

20+Years
05-28-2013, 03:28 PM
omerta,

I have no problem with you correcting me. I stand corrected. You are right, what I stated is from what I have generally seen. Unfortunately, and yet another weakness of this program (like EPRs), is there is no standard for action taken for fails. The very fairest it can be is if the Wg CC holds all Sqs to the same standard (3=demotion, 4=boot). Of course, there are always exceptions, medical cases for instance. Thankfully, my last base was like this. You knew exactly what to expect at each failure.

I was defintely rooting for you to get the stripe back, but you have now given me doubt about the outcome. If a CC can take whatever action they want on each fail, a third party may not be able to reverse the action unless it specifically states for "3 pt failures" and not something like "failing to meet standards". I dunno, just wondering.

SENDBILLMONEY
05-28-2013, 05:11 PM
I have to throw in my advice here skip the ADC and get yourself a real lawyer. Any decent lawyer will hand a military lawyer their butt in a sling. I have seen folks who were even wrong get off clean because of this a few times. The ADC will not fight for you the way a real lawyer will.

I see this advice a lot, and I cringe every time. Civilian attorneys are not a panacea by which one can win a losing UCMJ or adverse action case. When I worked in military justice, I saw civilian attorneys get $20,000 to lose the same court martial that an ADC could have lost for free. A client's factual hand is usually played out by the time an attorney gets involved, and those facts won't change if you have Captain Recentgrad or Clarence Darrow reincarnate representing you.

Can they be useful? Absolutely. Are they a guaranteed win? Not even close. If they imply otherwise, ask them to put it in writing. Bet you they won't. Pesky ethics rules.