PDA

View Full Version : Vietnam POW's returning for 40 yr anniversary dinner.. Wonder why no PTSD?



garhkal
05-24-2013, 07:16 PM
Was watching a snipped of news about a dinner celebration for the masses of POWs returned from vietnam having a 40 yr reunion of sorts and someone in the room (having lunch at denny's) commented that she was surprised that with all the POWs and others from "nam" had to endure compared to what our guys do these days, why we have a lot more PTSD now than we ever did back then..

SENDBILLMONEY
05-24-2013, 07:25 PM
Was watching a snipped of news about a dinner celebration for the masses of POWs returned from vietnam having a 40 yr reunion of sorts and someone in the room (having lunch at denny's) commented that she was surprised that with all the POWs and others from "nam" had to endure compared to what our guys do these days, why we have a lot more PTSD now than we ever did back then..

We don't know what they're rated for. PTSD could very well be on the POWs' ratings.

RobotChicken
05-24-2013, 07:30 PM
:usa2 Went to HS with alot of their sons/daughters, tough Navy BRATS and Navy Wives!! :lock1

Greg
05-24-2013, 07:44 PM
Was watching a snipped of news about a dinner celebration for the masses of POWs returned from vietnam having a 40 yr reunion of sorts and someone in the room (having lunch at denny's) commented that she was surprised that with all the POWs and others from "nam" had to endure compared to what our guys do these days, why we have a lot more PTSD now than we ever did back then..

Media.

Check some veteran's websites. There are Vietnam veterans who are only now receiving disabilities associated with PTSD.

JD2780
05-24-2013, 07:50 PM
Perhaps because we know more about it now than we did back then. Few guys are coming home getting hammered and beating their wives as well.

imported_chipotleboy
05-24-2013, 08:09 PM
My ROTC Field Training Commandant was a former POW. Whenever he thought nobody was looking, he would get that "thousand yard stare". I'm pretty sure the guy had PTSD, even though he acted calm and even-keeled. The guy had some interesting stories, like how he got shot down by his own bomb. It got stuck in the boundary layer after it was released and it followed his F-4 into the climb away from the target. Five and a half years in the Hanoi Hilton because of a boundary layer problem. That's why we now have Seek Eagle.

OtisRNeedleman
05-24-2013, 08:52 PM
When I was at SOS during fall 1985 remember seeing the assistant commandant at the BX or commissary. I knew he'd been a POW in NVN. I have never seen such a haunted look in anyone's eyes. Saw a picture of him again maybe last week. The haunted look seems to have pretty much gone away. I am glad.

KellyinAvon
05-24-2013, 10:42 PM
When I came home on my mid-tour from Taegu in 93 my Dad said a neighbor (Korean War Vet) wanted to talk to me. We stopped at his house, maps of Korea on the living room walls. He arrived at a place called Ingi (I believe K-16 AB was there, it's in north korea) in 51. He told me about some of the things he saw while he was there. When his wife pulled into the driveway he stopped talking. There are a lot of guys who have been carrying a lot for a lot of years. The VA hospital where I work is getting more Korean Veterans (even some WWII Vets) opening up about what they went through.

Rainmaker
05-25-2013, 12:55 AM
Men used to pride themselves on "playing with pain". It's out of vogue.

Slyoldawg
05-25-2013, 01:16 AM
Media.

Check some veteran's websites. There are Vietnam veterans who are only now receiving disabilities associated with PTSD.

I am a Vietnam Vet and never heard of PTSD until the dustup in Iraq. There was a very high wall between the Veteran's Administration and the military during my career and the two were never mentioned while I was in the Air Force in any conversation. I always thought the VA was for Veterans who got out of the military and did not serve retired people. My brother, a retired Marine finally told me I should sign up for the VA 20 years after I retired. I thought retired people could only use Champus and Tricare for life until my brother told me differently. I joined the VA and it was soon found that I had a combat related disability that I did not know about. Saved the government 20 years of disability pay. I should get a bonus for that.

BURAWSKI
05-25-2013, 01:21 AM
I never liked Nixon, but I have to admire him for recognizing the Vietnam POW's the way he did. I saw a picture of a very young naval officer, LCDR John McCain, in crutches shaking hands with President Nixon. I thought it was pretty awesome. The Vietnam veterans were never truly taken care of. PTSD among Vietnam veterans was common but it wasn't recognized or even called PTSD. The Korean veterans had the same problems I think.

Greg
05-25-2013, 01:46 AM
PTSD is a very complicated disorder. What greatly affects one, may only slightly affect a second, and not affect a third. There is no template, each is unique in their own way.

One may function for years with, seemingly, no affects from experiencing a traumatic incident, and then it may explode without warning.

It's the same for other mood disorders such as anxiety, and depression.

"Posttraumatic Diagnostic Scale (PDS)

Description

The PDS is a 49-item self-report measure recommended for use in clinical or research settings to measure severity of PTSD symptoms related to a single identified traumatic event. The PDS is unique in that it assesses all of the DSM-IV criteria for PTSD (i.e., Criteria A - F) and inquires about the past month (time frame can be adjusted for different uses). Thus, in addition to measuring the severity of PTSD symptoms (Criteria B, C, & D), it also inquires about the experience of a Criterion A traumatic events, about duration of symptoms (Criterion E), and the effects of symptoms on daily functioning (Criterion F).

The PDS has four sections. Part 1 is a trauma checklist. In Part 2, respondents are asked to describe their most upsetting traumatic event. Questions specifically ask about when it happened, if anyone was injured, perceived life threat, and whether the event resulted in helplessness or terror. In Part 3 assesses the 17 PTSD symptoms. Respondents are asked to rate the severity of the symptom from 0 ("not at all or only one time") to 3 ("5 or more times a week / almost always"). Part 4 assesses interference of the symptoms.

The PDS yields a total severity score (ranging from 0 to 51) that largely reflects the frequency of the 17 symptoms of PTSD. A PDS Profile Report also provides a preliminary determination of DSM-IV PTSD diagnostic status, a count of the number of symptoms endorsed, a rating of symptom severity, and a rating of the level of impairment of functioning."

http://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/pages/assessments/pds.asp

VFFTSGT
05-25-2013, 02:40 AM
Was watching a snipped of news about a dinner celebration for the masses of POWs returned from vietnam having a 40 yr reunion of sorts and someone in the room (having lunch at denny's) commented that she was surprised that with all the POWs and others from "nam" had to endure compared to what our guys do these days, why we have a lot more PTSD now than we ever did back then..

Because it comes with a free pay check if you get rated. Reading veteran boards, people with PTSD apparently get rated at 100%.

That's $3,214 a month for a veteran with a wife and child. That's $38,568/year tax free.

Also have read in the boards about how vets want to go to school but fear loosing their rating. They would rather continue the PTSD sham than go to school to better themselves.

I don't deny there are legitimate issues, but it appears some are also playing the system.

RobotChicken
05-25-2013, 02:41 AM
:spy Knew the Vote(KIA),Denton,Chisten,and other POW and families during that time,others with that 1k stare that goes right through you...:usa2

garhkal
05-25-2013, 05:56 AM
Because it comes with a free pay check if you get rated. Reading veteran boards, people with PTSD apparently get rated at 100%.

That's $3,214 a month for a veteran with a wife and child. That's $38,568/year tax free.

Also have read in the boards about how vets want to go to school but fear loosing their rating. They would rather continue the PTSD sham than go to school to better themselves.

I don't deny there are legitimate issues, but it appears some are also playing the system.

As with most govt handouts/etc, there are always going to be those who play the system.

PickYourBattles
05-25-2013, 07:25 AM
I think it's because back then, men who joined up for the military knew they were joining to fight in combat. They were smart enough to think to themselves, "What would that look like?" and then made an educated decision.

Today, the entitled pussified generation is filled with those who should never have been wearing the uniform. Like the rash of stolen valor actors, they will use anything and everything to play up how heroic they are, and some of them will try to cash in on this new "phenomenon."

My guess is there are a bunch of PTSD claimers, who are just worthless sacks. And I think we had fewer worthless sacks in Vietnam. Woof, woof!

Banned
05-25-2013, 07:30 AM
I think when you get to a certain age, get enough gray hairs on your head - the playing field levels out.

A POG-ass supply clerk deployed to Kabul in 2008 tries telling war stories, he get's laughed at.

A POG-ass supply clerk deployed to Paris in 1944 gets to tell all the bullshit war stories he wants, because he's "The Greatest Generation", the biggest fucking hero ever.

Banned
05-25-2013, 05:20 PM
I always felt as though we went from "The Greatest Generation" to "The Worst Generation" in only "One Generation" The guys who fought WW II did not want to see their kids fight the war in Vietnam, so they assisted their draft age kids when they started protesting the war and burning their draft cards. Those draft dodgers from the sixties are now the college professors and administrators. The "weatherman" bombers Ayers comes to mind along with many others.

That's a LITTLE harsh, wouldn't you say? There was nothing wrong with the Vietnam generation. And frankly, I don't blame them for being reluctant to go to Vietnam and kill/be killed for no good reason.

In WWII there was a clear reason for the war, a distinct front line, and an enemy that for the most part respected the laws of war. Vietnam was a hellhole, with "patrols" that mostly consisted of searching empty jungle for an elusive enemy and getting killed by booby traps. And frankly, that's pretty much what we got in the GWOT, minus the jungles. At least now we're all-volunteer.

Slyoldawg
05-25-2013, 05:24 PM
I think when you get to a certain age, get enough gray hairs on your head - the playing field levels out.

A POG-ass supply clerk deployed to Kabul in 2008 tries telling war stories, he get's laughed at.

A POG-ass supply clerk deployed to Paris in 1944 gets to tell all the bullshit war stories he wants, because he's "The Greatest Generation", the biggest fucking hero ever.

I always felt as though we went from "The Greatest Generation" to "The Worst Generation" in only "One Generation" The guys who fought WW II did not want to see their kids fight the war in Vietnam, so they assisted their draft age kids when they started protesting the war and burning their draft cards. Those draft dodgers from the sixties are now the college professors and administrators. The "weatherman" bombers Ayers comes to mind along with many others.

USMC0341
05-25-2013, 05:37 PM
I think when you get to a certain age, get enough gray hairs on your head - the playing field levels out.

A POG-ass supply clerk deployed to Kabul in 2008 tries telling war stories, he get's laughed at.

A POG-ass supply clerk deployed to Paris in 1944 gets to tell all the bullshit war stories he wants, because he's "The Greatest Generation", the biggest fucking hero ever.

Joe,

I would positive rep you for this if I could; great parallel that not many think of. Many folks would assume that if a person was in WWII, they were on the front lines regardless of their job. Nothing against the generation, but I think it is generally looked back upon with grandeur.

Slyoldawg
05-25-2013, 05:50 PM
That's a LITTLE harsh, wouldn't you say? There was nothing wrong with the Vietnam generation. And frankly, I don't blame them for being reluctant to go to Vietnam and kill/be killed for no good reason.

In WWII there was a clear reason for the war, a distinct front line, and an enemy that for the most part respected the laws of war. Vietnam was a hellhole, with "patrols" that mostly consisted of searching empty jungle for an elusive enemy and getting killed by booby traps. And frankly, that's pretty much what we got in the GWOT, minus the jungles. At least now we're all-volunteer.

As one who served two tours in Vietnam and received the treatment I received when I returned I don't think it's harsh enough. I believed then as I still believe that when we wear the uniform of our country we go where and when we are told. I truly believe that those draft dodgers were not protesting the right or wrongness of the war. They were cowards who were afraid of the personal danger I had childhood friends at that time who never served and none of them were out protesting or burning draft cards even though they were of draft age.. The bitter taste remains over this crap because the Air Force didn't even stand tall for us at the time. We were ordered to not wear our uniforms off base. We were even treated like shit by supervisors who did not go to Vietnam. All in all it was a sad, disgusting time to be in the military of this country.

VFFTSGT
05-25-2013, 06:04 PM
I think it's because back then, men who joined up for the military knew they were joining to fight in combat. They were smart enough to think to themselves, "What would that look like?" and then made an educated decision.

Today, the entitled pussified generation is filled with those who should never have been wearing the uniform. Like the rash of stolen valor actors, they will use anything and everything to play up how heroic they are, and some of them will try to cash in on this new "phenomenon."

My guess is there are a bunch of PTSD claimers, who are just worthless sacks. And I think we had fewer worthless sacks in Vietnam. Woof, woof!

I think you are right to some extent. Generally speaking, people joined today for the paycheck and benefits. They are generally here because it is better than what they had or would have. They didn't join with the mindset that they are willing to kill people in the pursuit of WMD's that were never found and live with that for the rest of their lives.

And the military industrial complex does't care. They will take whoever that will sign the paper and let them hash it out with the VA later. You would think there might be a psych eval when coming in or something that deals with the realization that one day you might have to kill someone.

And our history and the world is full of wars we never should have got involved in/started too.

Mcjohn1118
05-25-2013, 06:20 PM
I think it's because back then, men who joined up for the military knew they were joining to fight in combat. They were smart enough to think to themselves, "What would that look like?" and then made an educated decision.

Today, the entitled pussified generation is filled with those who should never have been wearing the uniform. Like the rash of stolen valor actors, they will use anything and everything to play up how heroic they are, and some of them will try to cash in on this new "phenomenon."

My guess is there are a bunch of PTSD claimers, who are just worthless sacks. And I think we had fewer worthless sacks in Vietnam. Woof, woof!

First off, welcome back PYB. You don't post as much but when you do, it's always succinct. I have to agree as well. It cracks me up when people who signed up after 2001 go AWOL because they got deployment orders. Are you serious? We've been at war for the past 12 years. Where did you think you were going to go? It also cracks me up when the news media interview everyday Americans and then you hear it: " Oh, I won't let my child join the service." How are you going to stop them, genius? If they are over the legal age where they don't need your signature, they have something called freedom of choice. Again, welcome back, PYB.

garhkal
05-25-2013, 06:38 PM
As one who served two tours in Vietnam and received the treatment I received when I returned I don't think it's harsh enough. I believed then as I still believe that when we wear the uniform of our country we go where and when we are told. I truly believe that those draft dodgers were not protesting the right or wrongness of the war. They were cowards who were afraid of the personal danger I had childhood friends at that time who never served and none of them were out protesting or burning draft cards even though they were of draft age.. The bitter taste remains over this crap because the Air Force didn't even stand tall for us at the time. We were ordered to not wear our uniforms off base. We were even treated like shit by supervisors who did not go to Vietnam. All in all it was a sad, disgusting time to be in the military of this country.

True.. Vietnam and the aftermath was one of the sorriest states of affairs imo for the country as a whole in how we treated those coming back.


I think you are right to some extent. Generally speaking, people joined today for the paycheck and benefits.

I know plenty who flat out admitted to only joining up so they could get all the college they can milk the system for, and as soon as they get their degree(s) they get out, hoping like bloody hell they never get deployed anywhere.


It cracks me up when people who signed up after 2001 go AWOL because they got deployment orders.

What i would love to know, is back in the old days, if we were fighting a war and someone deserted we used to be able to SHOOT them at a firing squad. But on the rare chance we actually capture those deserters nowdays, all we seem to do is slap them on the wrist. Id like to know what sort of punishment / deterent that is..

efmbman
05-25-2013, 07:06 PM
What i would love to know, is back in the old days, if we were fighting a war and someone deserted we used to be able to SHOOT them at a firing squad. But on the rare chance we actually capture those deserters nowdays, all we seem to do is slap them on the wrist. Id like to know what sort of punishment / deterent that is..

I may be mistaken, but I think a declaration of war by Congress is required for that punishment to be considered.

Banned
05-25-2013, 08:31 PM
As one who served two tours in Vietnam and received the treatment I received when I returned I don't think it's harsh enough.

I was not there. You were. However, as far as I can tell - the anger was directed at the politicians and senior military leadership - not the junior Soldiers who were drafted to fight. Heck, many of the junior Soldiers themselves participated in the anti-war movement.

In the case of what I know about my uncle, who served in Vietnam - and after the war became homeless and addicted to drugs - the real failure in America wasn't the anti-war protestors. It was the veteran organizations. The WWII vets had no respect for the Vietnam vets - called them cowards and hippies - didn't respect their drug use, or their music - saw them as losers. The Vet Center Program was built by Vietnam Vets to ensure that this kind of rejection never happened to another generation of vets again.


I believed then as I still believe that when we wear the uniform of our country we go where and when we are told.

While I absolutely respect that attitude... I am a volunteer, and I think only a volunteer force is appropriate. I initially joined the military out of naivety. My continued service is a business decision - I can have a more successful career here, and use the skills I've learned most effectively. Though politically I am a leftist, in my own life, military culture is all I've known since high school, and I like it. Its true that I could be hurt or killed overseas. But I could be hurt or killed in lots of lines of work. Its a risk I voluntarily accepted.

I strongly oppose a draft, except under extreme circumstances when the safety of the people of the United States are directly at risk. WWII was one of those cases. Japan directly attacked us first, and Germany did as well with their U-boats.

Vietnam was NOT one of those cases. It was an imperialist war that in no way benefitted or protected us. I think it is completely inappropriate to force people to fight in such a war. People such as myself are fair game, because we chose this as a career and accepted the risks. But I see no good reason to force others into this line of work.


I truly believe that those draft dodgers were not protesting the right or wrongness of the war. They were cowards who were afraid of the personal danger I had childhood friends at that time who never served and none of them were out protesting or burning draft cards even though they were of draft age..


That's true, but I wouldn't call it cowardice. I would call it good sense. Abandoning your schooling or career to go and die in Vietnam... this accomplishes what exactly? Under such circumstances I cannot blame someone who dodged the draft.

Now you're right that many people did it for personal safety, but there were true and honest consiencious objectors out htere - like Muhammad Ali. Would you call a man who fights for a living a coward? I wouldn't. But just because someone is a boxer doesn't mean he would want to go overseas and kill people. I absolutely respect his decision to stay out of the war.


The bitter taste remains over this crap because the Air Force didn't even stand tall for us at the time. We were ordered to not wear our uniforms off base. We were even treated like shit by supervisors who did not go to Vietnam. All in all it was a sad, disgusting time to be in the military of this country.

My Dad was just about the only male member on his side of the family not to join the Navy... he was warned not to, because the leadership was so terrible. Again - I don't see the failure as the fault of anti-war protestors - but incompetence and corruption within the military itself.

Banned
05-25-2013, 08:43 PM
True.. Vietnam and the aftermath was one of the sorriest states of affairs imo for the country as a whole in how we treated those coming back.

I know plenty who flat out admitted to only joining up so they could get all the college they can milk the system for, and as soon as they get their degree(s) they get out, hoping like bloody hell they never get deployed anywhere.

What i would love to know, is back in the old days, if we were fighting a war and someone deserted we used to be able to SHOOT them at a firing squad. But on the rare chance we actually capture those deserters nowdays, all we seem to do is slap them on the wrist. Id like to know what sort of punishment / deterent that is..

The issue I have with that is I have met VERY FEW military leaders I would trust with that power. While I've met some absolutely amazing senior NCOs and officers - the vast majority are, unfortunately, drones, bigots, morons, and cowards. I would never trust most of them with the power to put up a young private against a wall and have him executed.

Slyoldawg
05-25-2013, 08:55 PM
I was not there. You were. However, as far as I can tell - the anger was directed at the politicians and senior military leadership - not the junior Soldiers who were drafted to fight. Heck, many of the junior Soldiers themselves participated in the anti-war movement.

In the case of what I know about my uncle, who served in Vietnam - and after the war became homeless and addicted to drugs - the real failure in America wasn't the anti-war protestors. It was the veteran organizations. The WWII vets had no respect for the Vietnam vets - called them cowards and hippies - didn't respect their drug use, or their music - saw them as losers. The Vet Center Program was built by Vietnam Vets to ensure that this kind of rejection never happened to another generation of vets again.



While I absolutely respect that attitude... I am a volunteer, and I think only a volunteer force is appropriate. I initially joined the military out of naivety. My continued service is a business decision - I can have a more successful career here, and use the skills I've learned most effectively. Though politically I am a leftist, in my own life, military culture is all I've known since high school, and I like it. Its true that I could be hurt or killed overseas. But I could be hurt or killed in lots of lines of work. Its a risk I voluntarily accepted.

I strongly oppose a draft, except under extreme circumstances when the safety of the people of the United States are directly at risk. WWII was one of those cases. Japan directly attacked us first, and Germany did as well with their U-boats.

Vietnam was NOT one of those cases. It was an imperialist war that in no way benefitted or protected us. I think it is completely inappropriate to force people to fight in such a war. People such as myself are fair game, because we chose this as a career and accepted the risks. But I see no good reason to force others into this line of work.



That's true, but I wouldn't call it cowardice. I would call it good sense. Abandoning your schooling or career to go and die in Vietnam... this accomplishes what exactly? Under such circumstances I cannot blame someone who dodged the draft.

Now you're right that many people did it for personal safety, but there were true and honest consiencious objectors out htere - like Muhammad Ali. Would you call a man who fights for a living a coward? I wouldn't. But just because someone is a boxer doesn't mean he would want to go overseas and kill people. I absolutely respect his decision to stay out of the war.



My Dad was just about the only male member on his side of the family not to join the Navy... he was warned not to, because the leadership was so terrible. Again - I don't see the failure as the fault of anti-war protestors - but incompetence and corruption within the military itself.

I see what you are saying, but as they say, "Hind site is 20/20. It's easy to sit here 40+ years after the war is over and to defend this or that. While living in the moment though all we have to rely on is what we were taught and the feelings of the moment. I am sure, had you been in a foxhole, or bunker with me while Jane Fonda was sitting at an enemy gunsite your present thoughts would probably be a little different. In 1967 while dodging 122 mm rockets raining down on us politics was the last thing on our minds.
http://home.earthlink.net/~bat20/id13.html If you care to see some of what we experienced you could see it at the included link.

Banned
05-25-2013, 08:57 PM
I see what you are saying, but as they say, "Hind site is 20/20. It's easy to sit here 40+ years after the war is over and to defend this or that. While living in the moment though all we have to rely on is what we were taught and the feelings of the moment. I am sure, had you been in a foxhole, or bunker with me while Jane Fonda was sitting at an enemy gunsite your present thoughts would probably be a little different. In 1967 while dodging 122 mm rockets raining down on us politics was the last thing on our minds.
http://home.earthlink.net/~bat20/id13.html If you care to see some of what we experienced you could see it at the included link.

I see what you're saying. On deployment most of us thought our company commander was an arrogant moron. I still think he is to an extent, but now I have a much better understanding of the pressure he was under from his own superiors, and respect the circumstances he was in much more.

As Clauswitz said, war is politics by other means. To understand a war, we have to understand the politics that led to it!

Slyoldawg
05-25-2013, 09:03 PM
I'd like to add that during Vietnam the Air Force was not drafting anyone, so it was voluntary service for us. I do realize though, many people probably joined the AF at that time to avoid the draft, but they were still volunteers.

PickYourBattles
05-26-2013, 12:51 AM
Generally speaking, people joined today for the paycheck and benefits.

I couldn't agree more. (http://www.pickyourbattles.net/2013/05/assassinating-americans-memorial-day.html)

PickYourBattles
05-26-2013, 12:52 AM
Generally speaking, people joined today for the paycheck and benefits.

I couldn't agree more. (http://www.pickyourbattles.net/2013/05/assassinating-americans-memorial-day.html)

Happy Memorial Day to those few of you who are better than that.

PickYourBattles
05-26-2013, 01:11 AM
First off, welcome back PYB. You don't post as much but when you do, it's always succinct. I have to agree as well. It cracks me up when people who signed up after 2001 go AWOL because they got deployment orders. Are you serious? We've been at war for the past 12 years. Where did you think you were going to go? It also cracks me up when the news media interview everyday Americans and then you hear it: " Oh, I won't let my child join the service." How are you going to stop them, genius? If they are over the legal age where they don't need your signature, they have something called freedom of choice. Again, welcome back, PYB.

Thanks. I PCS'd overseas to a great non-flying one year remote (as great as a non-flying assignment can be), with a very sweet sweet flying gig follow on so I've been busy. Plus this board gets tiring. But it appears we might have responsible mods now, no silly rep system, and perhaps this forum will improve.

Imagine a sweet Florida beach location, me with a nav student in the back so that I get to fly the entire time, and two years left until retirement. The Air Force has been awesome to me.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8VWFR1HG0mc#t=207s

RobotChicken
05-26-2013, 11:57 PM
:usa2
I couldn't agree more. (http://www.pickyourbattles.net/2013/05/assassinating-americans-memorial-day.html)

Happy Memorial Day to those few of you who are better than that.
:usa2 Have a great 'Memorial' day 'PYB', and keep fightin' the good fight!!! 'RC'. :usa2