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View Full Version : Do As I Say, Not As I Do? Or...?



BOSS302
05-17-2013, 10:13 AM
Mind your own business?

What's everyone's take on situations involving SNCOs/shop leads setting rules for everyone (for instance, report to duty no later than 0730), yet those same SNCOs/shop leads might bend the rules themselves (for instance, coming into work at 0800).

I know some agree that these people might do a lot behind the scenes or work late for their people (who don't see that) and thus are entitled to leeway (hence, mind your own business).

Others might agree that if you set the standard, then you must BE the standard.

Thoughts?

Rusty Jones
05-17-2013, 10:43 AM
My first duty station, I was on shore duty at NSB New London. After about a year there, we got a new OIC. Well, we owned the second floor of a three-story building; to which there were four entrances.

One entrance was right by the OIC's office.

We all had to be there at 0700 every workday; both military and civilian. Of course, the OIC always "CLAIMS" to hold himself to the same standard as he holds his people to. Of course, ANY Naval officer who says this is full of shit - and I accepted that officers will always have the "do as I say, not as I do attitude" - I accepted that, and I carried on.

But what I COULD NOT accept was that fact that coming in between 0830 and 0900 wasn't enough for this asshole. If he came into the building through the entrance right by his office, I wouldn't have given a damn. But he couldn't do that. He had to come in through the entrance way on the other end of the building, so he could walk past everyone - make everyone WATCH HIM come in whenever the hell he wanted - and smile at everyone and say "hi."

I get that he's above his own rules, and I accept that. But to rub it in our faces?

I was to the point where I was ready to pay a local to beat his ass. The only thing that stopped me, is that I don't think I could trust anyone not to snitch if they got apprehended.

71Fish
05-17-2013, 01:12 PM
When I was a SNCO, I prefered coming in early and leaving "on time" while other do the opposite. Are you sure these folks coming in late aren't also staying late?
I've seen many in Sr leadership positions come in late, but staying (for whatever reason) long after everyone has gone home. When I was a TSgt, there was a MSgt who did that. Once he overheard someone complaining about him coming in late. He made that person stay late to "help" him on a project. They left at about 2030. Never heard another complaint about what time he came in.

Moral of the story; make sure you know the whole story before complaining.

SomeRandomGuy
05-17-2013, 01:25 PM
When I was a SNCO, I prefered coming in early and leaving "on time" while other do the opposite. Are you sure these folks coming in late aren't also staying late?
I've seen many in Sr leadership positions come in late, but staying (for whatever reason) long after everyone has gone home. When I was a TSgt, there was a MSgt who did that. Once he overheard someone complaining about him coming in late. He made that person stay late to "help" him on a project. They left at about 2030. Never heard another complaint about what time he came in.

Moral of the story; make sure you know the whole story before complaining.

Sometimes there is a valid reason for a different schedule but I think it should be explained to others in the section even though it is not their business. At one base everyone was supposed to work from 0730-1630 with an hour lunch. We had a SSgt who always came it at 0800 or a little later. I was one of other NCOs and I was always at work at 0730. One day I heard a few of my troops mention that it was not fair that this SSgt always came in at 0800 (he always stayed until at least 1700 but no one cared about that). I went to my supervisor (also his supervisor) just to check into it. My supervisor informed me that the SSgt's wife was also military. She was also supposed to work from 0730-1630. They used the CDC for their children's daycare. Since the CDC was on a different part of the base it was very difficult to drop children off and get to work by 0730 then get back to pick them up anywhere close to 1630. For those of you who do not realize the CDC allows 40 hours per week of childcare. After that the rates get really extreme. This SSgt had worked out a deal where he would drop the kids off at 0730 and arrive at work by 0800. His wife would go in at 0730 and pick the kids up at 1630. This saved them about $100 or more per week and it did not affect the mission at all because we did not have any customers prior to 0800 anyways. Once people realized the reason for him coming in at 0800 no one had a problem with it. Even though it was no one's business it does not hurt to let other people in the section know why someone might have a different schedule. Sometimes the reason can be personal and really is "none of your business" but when possible it should be explained to others if someone appears to be getting special treatment.

71Fish
05-17-2013, 01:43 PM
Sometimes there is a valid reason for a different schedule but I think it should be explained to others in the section even though it is not their business. At one base everyone was supposed to work from 0730-1630 with an hour lunch. We had a SSgt who always came it at 0800 or a little later. I was one of other NCOs and I was always at work at 0730. One day I heard a few of my troops mention that it was not fair that this SSgt always came in at 0800 (he always stayed until at least 1700 but no one cared about that). I went to my supervisor (also his supervisor) just to check into it. My supervisor informed me that the SSgt's wife was also military. She was also supposed to work from 0730-1630. They used the CDC for their children's daycare. Since the CDC was on a different part of the base it was very difficult to drop children off and get to work by 0730 then get back to pick them up anywhere close to 1630. For those of you who do not realize the CDC allows 40 hours per week of childcare. After that the rates get really extreme. This SSgt had worked out a deal where he would drop the kids off at 0730 and arrive at work by 0800. His wife would go in at 0730 and pick the kids up at 1630. This saved them about $100 or more per week and it did not affect the mission at all because we did not have any customers prior to 0800 anyways. Once people realized the reason for him coming in at 0800 no one had a problem with it. Even though it was no one's business it does not hurt to let other people in the section know why someone might have a different schedule. Sometimes the reason can be personal and really is "none of your business" but when possible it should be explained to others if someone appears to be getting special treatment.

You're example is of a peer, not a supervisor.

Rusty Jones
05-17-2013, 01:44 PM
On another note, it's difficult to "mind your own business" in the military.

In the civilian world, we're not likely to monitor how long other people are working or when they come or go. For one thing, leave isn't in one day increments. You clock in and out of leave, and you're charged the number of hours and minutes accordingly - so, for all we know, our co-workers are just going on leave.

Ultimately, our mindset is simply to watch your OWN ass. It's the exact opposite in the military so, by nature, you are going to be all up in your co-worker's business.

OtisRNeedleman
05-17-2013, 02:20 PM
As a supervisor, I never expected any more from my people than I did myself. Everyone knew the start and finish times for the duty day. If you needed to come in late, leave early, or had an appointment, just let someone know so we knew you were okay. I was blessed with good people and abusing the system was never an issue. And I saw much the same from my supervisors over the years.

SomeRandomGuy
05-17-2013, 03:12 PM
You're example is of a peer, not a supervisor.

He was a supervisor just not my supervisor. In fairness to him I have no idea if his troops knew why he came in late or not. He was a pretty good supervisor so they probably did. The thing about it was that it helps squash rumors when everyone in teh workcenter knows what is going on. As I said in the example it really is none of anyone's business but if possible why not make it public knowledge. You might even have an Amn who was in the same situation but paying the extra $100 for childcare because they had no idea an alternate schedule was avaliable and they were too scared to ask.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
05-17-2013, 03:29 PM
As a supervisor I've never watched the clock. I don't care what time you come to work or leave. Just be on time for my meetings, meet suspenses and do your damn job.

Drackore
05-17-2013, 05:54 PM
I come in at varying times throughout the week and leave at varying times throughout the week. I overheard an Amn whining about it the other day, so I pulled him into the office. Not a scolding, just a "If you had a concern, why not talk to me?" I wanted to be sure they all felt I was approachable. I explained it to him and we pressed.

So...ummm, go talk to them and see if maybe they are working from home, coming in on weekends, working late. Maybe he was there at 0500 and he left to get breakfast and came back?

Don't be such a Negative Nelly. :P

SomeRandomGuy
05-17-2013, 06:17 PM
I come in at varying times throughout the week and leave at varying times throughout the week. I overheard an Amn whining about it the other day, so I pulled him into the office. Not a scolding, just a "If you had a concern, why not talk to me?" I wanted to be sure they all felt I was approachable. I explained it to him and we pressed.

So...ummm, go talk to them and see if maybe they are working from home, coming in on weekends, working late. Maybe he was there at 0500 and he left to get breakfast and came back?

Don't be such a Negative Nelly. :P

The other thing to remember is that some pleaces have policies that dictate a strange schedule. At most bases finance is not a 24/7 operation. When things are closed down for the day appropriate safeguards need to be in place to protect negotiable instruments as well as personal information. All of the places I have been had a policy that at least one supervisor (NCO for military, GS-9 or above for civilians) had to be in the building when it was locked up. Most Amn do not understand these types of things or even notice them. All they see is someone walking in or out of the door before or after them. I agree with you though that the best policy is sit down with them and explain it. Unless the mission dictates specific hours it really doesn't matter when you work as long as everyone is being treated fairly regarding the number of hours worked. Good on your for approaching it the right way instead of just saying "mind your fucking business"

LogDog
05-17-2013, 06:20 PM
I worked for a SMSgt whom made sure we knew our duty times were from 0730 - 1630 hrs and he expected everyone to arrive at work no later than 0730 and to leave no later than 1630. He also told us the rules apply to him as well and if he violated them they were to call him on it, which we did. Often when he was late it was because of a meeting he had first thing in the morning. Our warehouse was about 1 mile from for hospital so instead of going to the shop he'd go directly to the meeting. He made a point of letting us know when he had a morning meeting and he'd put it down on the sign-out board before leaving work.

VFFTSGT
05-17-2013, 06:27 PM
Mind your own business?

What's everyone's take on situations involving SNCOs/shop leads setting rules for everyone (for instance, report to duty no later than 0730), yet those same SNCOs/shop leads might bend the rules themselves (for instance, coming into work at 0800).

I know some agree that these people might do a lot behind the scenes or work late for their people (who don't see that) and thus are entitled to leeway (hence, mind your own business).

Others might agree that if you set the standard, then you must BE the standard.

Thoughts?

My sup comes to work late all the time...so I did.

My sup complains about when I needed time for X but they take time for X and Y all the time...so I started going to the Flt CC when I needed something.

My sup spends most of their day goofing off at various base facilities...so I started doing it.

My sup repeatedly fails to pass on important information....and then yells at people for not being somewhere the sup failed to tell them they had to be at.

My sup does not take care of people behind the scenes...they take care of themselves.


I always gave lee-way...no certain amount of time but if you were PERIODICALLY late then it wasn't an issue. I understand crap happens, whether you just slept in by accident, caught in traffic, wife not feeling good, you’re not feeling good, kids going nuts, etc... There are 6,932,719 reasons why someone might be periodically late. I never want someone flying (speeding) to work to try to make it there at some arbitrary time.

Yes, one can say you should plan for X but how early should someone have to wake up to plan for X, Y, and Z. It’s like getting hit by a drunk driver on the way to test for promotion and not getting your test re-scheduled because you failed to properly plan.

Maybe it's just me, but I have had more supervisors and superintendents that were hypocrites than anything. The ones that are always right regardless simply because of the rank they wear on their sleeves or collar.

20+Years
05-17-2013, 06:56 PM
Your sup needs a swift kick in the ass.

BRUWIN
05-17-2013, 07:08 PM
Since I normally came in later and left earlier the first thing I used to do when I arrived to work in the morning was walk around and find out who left early the night before and who was late that morning. I would then hammer those people.

KellyinAvon
05-18-2013, 01:41 AM
Since I normally came in later and left earlier the first thing I used to do when I arrived to work in the morning was walk around and find out who left early the night before and who was late that morning. I would then hammer those people.

:fish2 Maybe you should switch to night crawlers Bru. The bait you're using isn't getting any bites.

BOSS302
05-18-2013, 01:55 AM
:fish2 Maybe you should switch to night crawlers Bru. The bait you're using isn't getting any bites.

Once he became a plus-sized GS-11 Civilian Airman, he lost his baiting skills.

KellyinAvon
05-18-2013, 02:14 AM
Once he became a plus-sized GS-11 Civilian Airman, he lost his baiting skills.

Ain't nothing wrong with being a plus-sized GS-11. My last day in uniform was 6 years and 20 pounds ago.

jondstewart
05-18-2013, 03:18 AM
From having worked in food service, I had a manager toward the end of my career that insisted you come in to work 15 minutes early. Any later than that and you are automatically late! I didn't do it that way. If you were supposed to be at work at 0430 (normal food service worker hours), that didn't mean come through those doors right at 0430, but you are already there and ready to go to work! Airmen tried to pull that crap coming through the doors, then spend the next 5 minutes in the changing room getting their food service whites on. Wrong!

Then again, there was also a micromanager Senior NCO that was coming in to work late and staying for the midnight shift because they "couldn't get their act together". Then he wouldn't come in to work until afternoon the next day and senior leadership was pee oad!

garhkal
05-18-2013, 05:22 AM
When I was a SNCO, I prefered coming in early and leaving "on time" while other do the opposite. Are you sure these folks coming in late aren't also staying late?
I've seen many in Sr leadership positions come in late, but staying (for whatever reason) long after everyone has gone home. When I was a TSgt, there was a MSgt who did that. Once he overheard someone complaining about him coming in late. He made that person stay late to "help" him on a project. They left at about 2030. Never heard another complaint about what time he came in.

Moral of the story; make sure you know the whole story before complaining.

True.. 2 of the 3 latter division officers i had stayed routinely till around 6-7pm.. So i don't begrudge them coming in half an hr late or so..


Sometimes there is a valid reason for a different schedule but I think it should be explained to others in the section even though it is not their business. At one base everyone was supposed to work from 0730-1630 with an hour lunch. We had a SSgt who always came it at 0800 or a little later. I was one of other NCOs and I was always at work at 0730. One day I heard a few of my troops mention that it was not fair that this SSgt always came in at 0800 (he always stayed until at least 1700 but no one cared about that). I went to my supervisor (also his supervisor) just to check into it. My supervisor informed me that the SSgt's wife was also military. She was also supposed to work from 0730-1630. They used the CDC for their children's daycare. Since the CDC was on a different part of the base it was very difficult to drop children off and get to work by 0730 then get back to pick them up anywhere close to 1630. For those of you who do not realize the CDC allows 40 hours per week of childcare. After that the rates get really extreme. This SSgt had worked out a deal where he would drop the kids off at 0730 and arrive at work by 0800. His wife would go in at 0730 and pick the kids up at 1630. This saved them about $100 or more per week and it did not affect the mission at all because we did not have any customers prior to 0800 anyways. Once people realized the reason for him coming in at 0800 no one had a problem with it. Even though it was no one's business it does not hurt to let other people in the section know why someone might have a different schedule. Sometimes the reason can be personal and really is "none of your business" but when possible it should be explained to others if someone appears to be getting special treatment.

While i understand the commands reasoning for things like that, i always hated it as it to me (and many under me) showed favoritism to those who had kids. Especially since those same people would always be allowed 'off for personal time' without having to run chits for 48/72 hr liberties, got favored treatment when it came to leave requests (actually had leave approved and was 2 days out from taking it when was told mine got cancelled so Mr married with kids could take his family on holiday, cause wife won it and it had a set time frame to be taken).

BOSS302
05-18-2013, 09:34 AM
True.. 2 of the 3 latter division officers i had stayed routinely till around 6-7pm.. So i don't begrudge them coming in half an hr late or so..



While i understand the commands reasoning for things like that, i always hated it as it to me (and many under me) showed favoritism to those who had kids. Especially since those same people would always be allowed 'off for personal time' without having to run chits for 48/72 hr liberties, got favored treatment when it came to leave requests (actually had leave approved and was 2 days out from taking it when was told mine got cancelled so Mr married with kids could take his family on holiday, cause wife won it and it had a set time frame to be taken).

If one cannot have kids AND adhere to the same standards and schedules as everyone else in a shop/section, then they either (1) Shouldn't have kids, (2) Shouldn't be in the Air Force.

RobotChicken
05-18-2013, 04:19 PM
:spy After deployment all the single guys would get stuck with duty for at least 2 weeks while the 'married' got off first and down the 'gangway' !!:closed_2

garhkal
05-18-2013, 06:40 PM
:spy After deployment all the single guys would get stuck with duty for at least 2 weeks while the 'married' got off first and down the 'gangway' !!:closed_2

While neither of my ships full 6 mo deployments were that bad, we did have to wait 2-3 hrs, while all the married with kids folk got off before they went to everyone else.

RobotChicken
05-19-2013, 05:05 AM
:usa2 REST my 'seabag'...thank you for your kind reply!!:welcome