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View Full Version : Experts: Tape test has huge margin of error



Rusty Jones
05-16-2013, 01:27 PM
http://www.navytimes.com/article/20130513/OFFDUTY/305130005/Experts-Tape-test-has-huge-margin-error

Please, tell me something I don't already know. This has been a problem long before I was in the Navy, and will still be problem for a long time. The Navy has heard complaints about the tape test for decades. If you couldn't make them budge 20 years ago, you're not going to be able to do it now. You probably won't even be able to do it 20 years from now.

Who benefits from this? The fatasses who are old enough to have a multi-chin that has become a part of their neck - which creates a neck that's thick enough to counter their beer belly, and put them right in standards.

I remember back in 2003, we had a fatass GMC who was well over 300 lbs. In the morning, when he got to the quarterdeck from walking down the pier; dude could hardly breathe. And his uniform was sweaty. Less than half-way through the day, he'd have a bad case of swamp-ass.

BUT... miraculously, he ALWAYS passed his PRTs. Even though the whole command watched him fail to finish the run every time.

Either the Navy needs to move to using calipers, or they need to do away with a body fat test altogether. If your body fat isn't stopping you from being able to do x number of crunches, y number of pushups, a running in z amount of time; then why should it matter in the first place? But if they feel that measuring body fat is an absolute must, then they need to use calipers.

garhkal
05-16-2013, 07:21 PM
if the whole command was watching him fail the run, how was he "Always passing the run?" Was someone fudging the numbers?

Banned
05-17-2013, 01:22 AM
if the whole command was watching him fail the run, how was he "Always passing the run?" Was someone fudging the numbers?

No doubt. Had a gunny that used to get away with that too (turning around long before the half-way point)

In the case of Rusty's 300 pound guy - I'll bet he wouldn't pass an honest tape either. Wouldn't surprise me if they were fudging that too.

Point being - changing the rules isn't going to fix this issue - we need to fix enforcement. Start cracking down on leadership who let this happen.

CYBERFX1024
05-17-2013, 02:03 AM
Dude, when I was attached to the Kearsarge in 2005 with a MEU. There was this fat navy chick walking around and ALWAYS had a camelback on her, and her slurping on it. We thought it was water. But one morning she passed out while they were doing PT on the deck one day. They went to get some water out of her camelback, and lo and behold it held nothing but PUDDING. OMG, that day forward we always had a nickname for her "Pudding Chick".

RobotChicken
05-17-2013, 06:38 AM
:tape2 "Huge McDonalds error of margarine"!:clap2

garhkal
05-17-2013, 08:58 PM
No doubt. Had a gunny that used to get away with that too (turning around long before the half-way point)

In the case of Rusty's 300 pound guy - I'll bet he wouldn't pass an honest tape either. Wouldn't surprise me if they were fudging that too.

Point being - changing the rules isn't going to fix this issue - we need to fix enforcement. Start cracking down on leadership who let this happen.

Must be that once a month time joe, cause yet again you and me see Eye to eye..
Personally i would also like to see charges brought against those who DO the fudging for their fellow 'officers/chiefs'. AND against those pushing others to do it too. I got my butt railed on by both my LPO, and my Div "o" one of the commands i was at, cause during two PRTs i failed someone on the push ups part. The first guy was being watched like a hawk (and was 3 away from the pass mark, but had i cheated for him, he would have called me on it), and the 2nd was over a dozen off. Flat out told them it matters not to me how good a worker they are, i do not fudge.

imported_WINTHORP1
06-03-2013, 10:15 PM
If you really want to enforce the rules, you need to have people outside your command administer the PRT. It should be a second class and an ensign. Keep the E-7's out of the equation. The second class isn't really worried about making E-7 at the time and the ensign doesn't have an loyalties to worry about. Or, you could go completely crazy and have civilians do it. Personally, I think it's a waste of time. If you started "working out" 2-3 weeks before the PRT, anyone in the Navy could pass. And if you couldn't, then you truly are out of shape and need to be discharged.

Rusty Jones
06-11-2013, 12:22 AM
If you really want to enforce the rules, you need to have people outside your command administer the PRT. It should be a second class and an ensign. Keep the E-7's out of the equation. The second class isn't really worried about making E-7 at the time and the ensign doesn't have an loyalties to worry about. Or, you could go completely crazy and have civilians do it. Personally, I think it's a waste of time. If you started "working out" 2-3 weeks before the PRT, anyone in the Navy could pass. And if you couldn't, then you truly are out of shape and need to be discharged.

The ensign would have to be an LDO. I think any other ensign would be easily intimidated by senior officers.

RobotChicken
06-11-2013, 01:10 AM
"How about Retired folks doing it?"

BURAWSKI
06-11-2013, 02:21 AM
"How about Retired folks doing it?"

Negative Ghost Rider. That's why they call us RETIRED!

RobotChicken
06-11-2013, 02:25 AM
"Ahh Chief! Where is your spirit of volunteering??

garhkal
06-11-2013, 04:20 AM
If you really want to enforce the rules, you need to have people outside your command administer the PRT. It should be a second class and an ensign. Keep the E-7's out of the equation. The second class isn't really worried about making E-7 at the time and the ensign doesn't have an loyalties to worry about. Or, you could go completely crazy and have civilians do it.


The ensign would have to be an LDO. I think any other ensign would be easily intimidated by senior officers.



I have seen that happen.. a brand new out of the academy O1 being the push-up watcher for an O3E got 'brow beat' into saying that the O3E completed 54 push ups, when he barely hit 30 (I was pacing him as i was next to him). I spoke up, but it seemed my comments fell on deaf ears, and that officer gave me shit for a week.

CrustySMSgt
06-11-2013, 04:46 AM
If you really want to enforce the rules, you need to have people outside your command administer the PRT. It should be a second class and an ensign. Keep the E-7's out of the equation. The second class isn't really worried about making E-7 at the time and the ensign doesn't have an loyalties to worry about. Or, you could go completely crazy and have civilians do it. Personally, I think it's a waste of time. If you started "working out" 2-3 weeks before the PRT, anyone in the Navy could pass. And if you couldn't, then you truly are out of shape and need to be discharged.

The Air Force tried the civilian route, due to the same issues (complete lack of integrity with units testing their own personnel). IMHO it was generally a success, but of course commanders hated it, and there were the inevitable muscle heads that got the position whose judgement was seriously lacking and if your elbows only hit "89.9°" instead of 90°, your pushups didn't count and silly shit like that. In the end, budget cuts killed the positions and we're back to detailing it out. But the testing centers are still centralized and evaluators are not supposed to test people from their own unit. I support doing it this way, because I've seen too many fatties getting hooked up by their buddies or numbers getting changed internal to the unit when they were entered in to the system.



I have seen that happen.. a brand new out of the academy O1 being the push-up watcher for an O3E got 'brow beat' into saying that the O3E completed 54 push ups, when he barely hit 30 (I was pacing him as i was next to him). I spoke up, but it seemed my comments fell on deaf ears, and that officer gave me shit for a week.


Another reason why centralized testing under the supervision of someone not in the chain of command works. When the O3 started giving the O1 shit, whoever was running the program could have shut it down and recorded the true number.

Rusty Jones
06-11-2013, 09:50 PM
In the case of Rusty's 300 pound guy - I'll bet he wouldn't pass an honest tape either. Wouldn't surprise me if they were fudging that too.

Maybe, but this guy's neck looked fat enough to put him right in standards. It would would've actually made for a fun bet. I knew quite a few fatasses with big necks like that, that used to brag about it.

Salty Old Dog
06-12-2013, 04:59 PM
If your body fat isn't stopping you from being able to do x number of crunches, y number of pushups, a running in z amount of time; then why should it matter in the first place? But if they feel that measuring body fat is an absolute must, then they need to use calipers.

To a point, that may be true. Back in 81, I was given a TDY assignment, between schools, on a Knox class fast frigate. We had a fellow that I worked with, down in Aux 1, who was ~5'-6" tall, and easily weighed 250 pounds, which he carried pretty much exclusively around his mid-section. On the occasions when he had to pass through a scuttle, he literally had to roll his fat through, in order to make it!!

We told him, in no uncertain terms, that if we ever had to evacuate the space due to a casualty, he would be the LAST man in line! No one wanted to wait for him to squeeze his roll through a scuttle, if seconds counted!! :outtahere:

USMC0341
06-12-2013, 05:20 PM
Maybe, but this guy's neck looked fat enough to put him right in standards. It would would've actually made for a fun bet. I knew quite a few fatasses with big necks like that, that used to brag about it.

I was always the opposite, small neck, yet I was an avid weightlifter. luckily for me, when we would weigh and tape i just lifted up my shirt and that was enough to see I wasn't fat. Of course this was because there were individuals involved with common sense.

I saw many fat ass SNCOs that in no way met standards, yet their "PFT" somehow occured at a different time then the rest, go figure...

garhkal
06-12-2013, 06:12 PM
I was always the opposite, small neck, yet I was an avid weightlifter. luckily for me, when we would weigh and tape i just lifted up my shirt and that was enough to see I wasn't fat. Of course this was because there were individuals involved with common sense.

I saw many fat ass SNCOs that in no way met standards, yet their "PFT" somehow occured at a different time then the rest, go figure...

We had 2 guys who were getting the stink finger from their chains for 'being fat' even though both benched an average of 350lb, ran the mile and a half in just over 10.30, and maxed out both the situps and pull ups.. All cause their bulk was mostly muscle.

Mr. Squid
06-16-2013, 04:54 AM
The tape test isn't the only margin for error. When I re-joined the Navy recently, my first PFA height measurement put me at 5' 6". Six months later, I'm 5' 8". Another six months, and I'm 5' 9". Who could've imagined I'd get a second growth spurt well into my 30s! Must be something in the water.

RobotChicken
06-16-2013, 07:03 AM
The tape test isn't the only margin for error. When I re-joined the Navy recently, my first PFA height measurement put me at 5' 6". Six months later, I'm 5' 8". Another six months, and I'm 5' 9". Who could've imagined I'd get a second growth spurt well into my 30s! Must be something in the water.

"Sitin on ones A$$ for 6 month at sea and only kissinA$$ for promotion tends to do that, just ask 'Rusty Wheel with no-one to grease it'!":blowjob:

RobotChicken
06-16-2013, 07:05 AM
Maybe, but this guy's neck looked fat enough to put him right in standards. It would would've actually made for a fun bet. I knew quite a few fatasses with big necks like that, that used to brag about it.

"Yea;drivin a hack will make you 'Rusty around the belt!" LOL!!:omfg:

Rusty Jones
06-16-2013, 12:42 PM
The tape test isn't the only margin for error. When I re-joined the Navy recently, my first PFA height measurement put me at 5' 6". Six months later, I'm 5' 8". Another six months, and I'm 5' 9". Who could've imagined I'd get a second growth spurt well into my 30s! Must be something in the water.

That's because you were stretching out to make tape!

Mr. Squid
06-16-2013, 04:10 PM
That's because you were stretching out to make tape!I try my damnedest to do that every time. I'm normally a hair over 5' 8", but how on Earth does someone read 5' 6"? Given my consistent weight, I almost failed my first BCA.

garhkal
06-17-2013, 06:41 AM
The tape test isn't the only margin for error. When I re-joined the Navy recently, my first PFA height measurement put me at 5' 6". Six months later, I'm 5' 8". Another six months, and I'm 5' 9". Who could've imagined I'd get a second growth spurt well into my 30s! Must be something in the water.

Agreed. Over my 20 in, depending on whom was taping me, my waist went fro 35-39, my neck from 15-18, and my height from 5ft 9 to 6ft..