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View Full Version : Do you think CMSAF Cody will live up to his word?



jondstewart
05-16-2013, 06:08 AM
Wish there had been a Chief like him when I was in! I love that he thinks people concentrating mainly on their jobs and family is more important than how much you volunteer or take classes. And the way MSgt promotions are becoming almost automatic now is ridiculous! You screw up? Get out! Get a DUI, get out! yes, I knew people that had DUI's and stellar careers the whole time they were in! They just couldn't drive on base for a year!

But still I'm skeptical. Few people make Chief without playing the system and politicking.

grimreaper
05-16-2013, 06:25 AM
Wish there had been a Chief like him when I was in! I love that he thinks people concentrating mainly on their jobs and family is more important than how much you volunteer or take classes. And the way MSgt promotions are becoming almost automatic now is ridiculous! You screw up? Get out! Get a DUI, get out! yes, I knew people that had DUI's and stellar careers the whole time they were in! They just couldn't drive on base for a year!

But still I'm skeptical. Few people make Chief without playing the system and politicking.

Huh? So far, he's been nothing but all talk...and when he did talk, didn't say much. When he came out and lectured us on how TA coming back was basically a bad thing because how it would impact the mission, when you can literally say the same for 100 other things we are still spending money on (and should've been cut long before TA), he became just another Chief parroting the company line.


SUBJECT: 2013 (13E7) MSgt Promotion Statistics

1. The Air Force worldwide statistics for cycle 13E7:

Number Eligible: 20,528

Number Selected: 3,841

AF-Wide Selection Rate: 18.71%

2. The results will be released on 23 May 2013 at 1300 ZULU (0800 CDT).

I'm not sure what part of these numbers constitutes "almost automatic".

BUDJR8
05-16-2013, 06:36 AM
Way too early...I'm willing to give the Chief a chance. A lot of issues folks want fixed, and he won't be able to fix them all; they all run out of time. We'll see...

Drackore
05-16-2013, 07:16 AM
So far both him and the new CSAF have been full of hot air. Honestly what I have seen is that Wing CCs and below are doing the exact opposite. CSAF and CMSAF are blustering about giving us our time back, work-life balance nonsense, and the jerks below them are piling it on more and more. So honestly, I don't have any faith in anyone in the AF anymore.

CJSmith
05-16-2013, 08:40 AM
Wish there had been a Chief like him when I was in! I love that he thinks people concentrating mainly on their jobs and family is more important than how much you volunteer or take classes. And the way MSgt promotions are becoming almost automatic now is ridiculous! You screw up? Get out! Get a DUI, get out! yes, I knew people that had DUI's and stellar careers the whole time they were in! They just couldn't drive on base for a year!

But still I'm skeptical. Few people make Chief without playing the system and politicking.

Not sure if you saw the rates for 13E7 before you posted but this rate is the lowest its been in over 36 years (possibly ever since WAPS went to once a year vs twice a year).

Dan-O
05-16-2013, 10:45 AM
Our leadership is going to have their hands full with buget issues for a long time and I don't think they will be able to make the changes they would like to because of that. Their immediate focus will be on Sexual Assault's since it's make national headlines but in the long run, they will be dealing more with cutbacks of Airmen and how to balance the budget.

Cold Hard Facts
05-16-2013, 12:10 PM
I've met both CSAF and CMSAF, the issues they're tackling are long-standing ones. To fix them, or validate there is no other COA, it is going to take some time. Hell, I say let's sit tight and wait. After one year in the seats, I'm sure we will see some movement in the right direction. Both these fellas are sincere and I have no doubt we couldn't have better leaders in place. To ensure the changes they make are fair and consistent across: AFSCs, MAJCOMS, genders, Es/Os and across the Services (where applicable) does take some homework and I'm willing to wait. It's easy to sit back and be cynical, as we've been told many of the issues we bellyache about will be fixed/and never are, I'm confident these guys are getting after it.

Cold Hard Facts
05-16-2013, 12:13 PM
CJ: Where did you find those historical MSgt rates? AFPC used to have that on their website--going back, like 30 years...since they redesigned their website, I can only find the last few years selection info...

Chief_KO
05-16-2013, 12:21 PM
Unfortunately the sexual assault fiasco, sequestration, budget fiasco, Afghan drawdown/recapitalization, manning cuts etc. will take priorities.

JD2780
05-16-2013, 12:31 PM
Not sure how 18% is almost automatic. Look at promotion to capt. Now that's almost automatic, or to SrA.

Drackore
05-16-2013, 01:05 PM
So you know them personally and for a long enough time to know they are sincere?

Not saying we couldn't have better....but given the pick of the crop...is the best even good enough for the service and the people?

I am starting to say no, it's not.


I've met both CSAF and CMSAF, the issues they're tackling are long-standing ones. To fix them, or validate there is no other COA, it is going to take some time. Hell, I say let's sit tight and wait. After one year in the seats, I'm sure we will see some movement in the right direction. Both these fellas are sincere and I have no doubt we couldn't have better leaders in place. To ensure the changes they make are fair and consistent across: AFSCs, MAJCOMS, genders, Es/Os and across the Services (where applicable) does take some homework and I'm willing to wait. It's easy to sit back and be cynical, as we've been told many of the issues we bellyache about will be fixed/and never are, I'm confident these guys are getting after it.

meatbringer
05-16-2013, 01:06 PM
Not sure how 18% is almost automatic. Look at promotion to capt. Now that's almost automatic, or to SrA.

I'm not against promotion boards for MSgt, but to get rid of them for Captain? And they justify getting rid of Captain boards by saying it will save money. Save money by making it even easier to get promoted to Captain. I'm not trying to create a shit storm on here with any officers, and I realize I'm just some enlisted guy who doesn't see the big picture from the CSAF and CMSAF's POV, but I just can't wrap my head around some of the decisions being made.

Tak
05-16-2013, 01:17 PM
How's the unofficial never talked about 6 month epr and AC review.

Measure Man
05-16-2013, 03:32 PM
I'm not against promotion boards for MSgt, but to get rid of them for Captain? And they justify getting rid of Captain boards by saying it will save money. Save money by making it even easier to get promoted to Captain. I'm not trying to create a shit storm on here with any officers, and I realize I'm just some enlisted guy who doesn't see the big picture from the CSAF and CMSAF's POV, but I just can't wrap my head around some of the decisions being made.

Even with a board, selection for Capt. is like what? 97% or something...the only ones NOT getting promoted are people with a huge blemish in their record that their commander makes evident to the board that this one should not be promoted.

No value added there...it would be like holding a board for SrA, and selected everyone except the people the commander already doesn't recommend.

MSgt, SMSgt, CMSgt...different stories...local commanders want a lot more people promoted than the AF has room for. Although, far from perfect, I do believe the boards add a bit something of value...there is a definite step up in people that are boarded for promotion vs. those who aren't, IMO. Again, not perfect by any means...but percentage wise there are far less completely useless losers at SMSgt than there are at MSgt.

CJSmith
05-16-2013, 04:27 PM
CJ: Where did you find those historical MSgt rates? AFPC used to have that on their website--going back, like 30 years...since they redesigned their website, I can only find the last few years selection info...

Google WAPSCalc and download the excel copy. There is a sheet that shows stats going all the way back to 1971.

Bunch
05-16-2013, 05:08 PM
Its hard to have any significant impact when you are forced to manage by crisis and that's the way it seems CSAF and Chief Cody have been received to their new positions. First it was the MTI scandal, then the budget battles, then the case in Aviano, then the nuclear officers, now sexual harrasment again. Is hard to focus on things you want to accomplish when every other day you have to plug holes all around.

Rainmaker
05-16-2013, 05:19 PM
Its hard to have any significant impact when you are forced to manage by crisis and that's the way it seems CSAF and Chief Cody have been received to their new positions. First it was the MTI scandal, then the budget battles, then the case in Aviano, then the nuclear officers, now sexual harrasment again. Is hard to focus on things you want to accomplish when every other day you have to plug holes all around.

Thank God Hap Arnold never had to deal with any tough crises like this bunch of "leaders" has.

grimreaper
05-16-2013, 05:54 PM
Even with a board, selection for Capt. is like what? 97% or something...the only ones NOT getting promoted are people with a huge blemish in their record that their commander makes evident to the board that this one should not be promoted.

No value added there...it would be like holding a board for SrA, and selected everyone except the people the commander already doesn't recommend.

MSgt, SMSgt, CMSgt...different stories...local commanders want a lot more people promoted than the AF has room for. Although, far from perfect, I do believe the boards add a bit something of value...there is a definite step up in people that are boarded for promotion vs. those who aren't, IMO. Again, not perfect by any means...but percentage wise there are far less completely useless losers at SMSgt than there are at MSgt.

I disagree with boards for MSgt. First, there are way too many. The time and resources required would be one more thing that people don't have time for.

To say we need to board MSgts is also to suggest that WAPS is broken. If we accept WAPS and a fair and equitable way for promotion to SSgt and TSgt, why not to MSgt?

Why would we make the decision to add more subjectivity into the promotions of yet another rank? I am already of the opinion that too much weight is given to the board scores. Why is it that the heaviest weighted part of the promotion sytem to E-8 ans E-9 is also the most subjective part? Shouldn't we be making the process as objective as possible?

If promoting people by adding more subjectivity into the process is truly a better one, then shouldn't we be doing that across the board?

BUDJR8
05-16-2013, 05:58 PM
Let's give the CSAF and CMSAF a chance. I wouldn't want either of their jobs...their schedules are hell, they are constantly on the road or testifying to congress. The pressure to "fix" everything is immense. They can have it. I know we all want everything our way right now, but they like their predecessors will be mired in the muck for a while and lucky to see most of their "ideas" come to fruition. Time will tell.

Bunch
05-16-2013, 06:09 PM
Thank God Hap Arnold never had to deal with any tough crises like this bunch of "leaders" has.

You got a point there.

grimreaper
05-16-2013, 06:13 PM
Its hard to have any significant impact when you are forced to manage by crisis and that's the way it seems CSAF and Chief Cody have been received to their new positions. First it was the MTI scandal, then the budget battles, then the case in Aviano, then the nuclear officers, now sexual harrasment again. Is hard to focus on things you want to accomplish when every other day you have to plug holes all around.

Well considering the staffs they have, I would think they would be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. Any 4-Star or Chief that doesn't know how to multi-task begs the question of how they got to that position in the first place.

20+Years
05-16-2013, 06:19 PM
The historical is listed on MyPers under promotions.

Bunch
05-16-2013, 06:21 PM
Well considering the staffs they have, I would think they would be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. Any 4-Star or Chief that doesn't know how to multi-task begs the question of how they got to that position in the first place.

True... at the same time though I dont know the inner workings of the Pentagon but it won't be a place I will go to find anything kind of effective processes.

Tak
05-16-2013, 07:11 PM
So...about this 6 month EPR and AC review...

tiredretiredE7
05-16-2013, 08:46 PM
So...about this 6 month EPR and AC review...

E9 Cody has already shown his true side by his comments regarding the AF having to bring TA back and how that would prevent a couple of squadrons from flying. E9 Cody is not better than Roy and some people in these forums (Crusty) gave E9 Cody huge kudos.

KellyinAvon
05-16-2013, 10:16 PM
Thank God Hap Arnold never had to deal with any tough crises like this bunch of "leaders" has.

Very well put.

Capt Alfredo
05-16-2013, 11:52 PM
Not sure how 18% is almost automatic. Look at promotion to capt. Now that's almost automatic, or to SrA.

I told my FTO (that's Field Training Officer, Bob) that a Captain was the Senior Airman of the officer corps when I was in OTS. He wasn't too happy, but couldn't really argue the point.

imported_Shove_your_stupid_meeting
05-17-2013, 01:50 AM
If promoting people by adding more subjectivity into the process is truly a better one, then shouldn't we be doing that across the board?


One would think so, but you know how we do.

RobotChicken
05-17-2013, 05:21 AM
:plane PC Marxism rules!! Yes winnies are the future,look around you.....:love

Quixotic
05-17-2013, 05:27 AM
Standard, all talk, I've already written him off as a lost cause, just like the last figure head.

Has he given any word to keep...?

BOSS302
05-17-2013, 10:19 AM
If the USAF simply made the position of the CMSAF disappear tomorrow...would there really be any impact? At all?

Other than touring bases, giving speeches, and wearing different uniforms...what has a CMSAF done for us lately? I understand someone will jump to the CMSAF's defense and say that, "Oh you know them so well? You were a fly on the wall in all of their meetings? Yea? Yea?!"

"The CMSAF is appointed by the Air Force Chief of Staff (AF/CC) and serves as the senior enlisted advisor to the Air Force Chief of Staff and the Secretary of the Air Force on all issues regarding the welfare, readiness, morale, and proper utilization and progress of the enlisted force."

Judging from the way the AF is today...great advising there, champions.

JD2780
05-17-2013, 11:36 AM
If the USAF simply made the position of the CMSAF disappear tomorrow...would there really be any impact? At all?

Other than touring bases, giving speeches, and wearing different uniforms...what has a CMSAF done for us lately? I understand someone will jump to the CMSAF's defense and say that, "Oh you know them so well? You were a fly on the wall in all of their meetings? Yea? Yea?!"

"The CMSAF is appointed by the Air Force Chief of Staff (AF/CC) and serves as the senior enlisted advisor to the Air Force Chief of Staff and the Secretary of the Air Force on all issues regarding the welfare, readiness, morale, and proper utilization and progress of the enlisted force."

Judging from the way the AF is today...great advising there, champions.

Little to no impact at all. Actually, it would be a decent impact. It would keep a flying unit flying for a month at least.

Sergeant eNYgma
05-17-2013, 02:20 PM
[QUOTE=grimreaper;625291]Huh? So far, he's been nothing but all talk...and when he did talk, didn't say much. When he came out and lectured us on how TA coming back was basically a bad thing because how it would impact the mission, when you can literally say the same for 100 other things we are still spending money on (and should've been cut long before TA), he became just another Chief parroting the company line.

My point exacty...don't come at me with the TA shit when we're still buying broke ass F-35's, buying new furniture all the time, cable tv in the gym etc

Measure Man
05-17-2013, 02:31 PM
I disagree with boards for MSgt. First, there are way too many. The time and resources required would be one more thing that people don't have time for.

To say we need to board MSgts is also to suggest that WAPS is broken. If we accept WAPS and a fair and equitable way for promotion to SSgt and TSgt, why not to MSgt?

Why would we make the decision to add more subjectivity into the promotions of yet another rank? I am already of the opinion that too much weight is given to the board scores. Why is it that the heaviest weighted part of the promotion sytem to E-8 ans E-9 is also the most subjective part? Shouldn't we be making the process as objective as possible?

If promoting people by adding more subjectivity into the process is truly a better one, then shouldn't we be doing that across the board?

Yes, we probably should be doing it across the board.

The numbers for SSgt and TSgt make it prohibitive to do centrally....perhaps base boards would work, but then it is not the same across the AF.

Objective is not better, IMO. An objective promotion selection is nothing more than a shopping list to get promoted. It does not consider the intangibles that only a subjective process can...leadership, judgment, maturity, etc. Lord knows we could use more of that.

But the idea of MSgt boards has been discarded in the past due to numbers...so I don't know if it is practical or not.

Pullinteeth
05-17-2013, 04:08 PM
So far both him and the new CSAF have been full of hot air. Honestly what I have seen is that Wing CCs and below are doing the exact opposite. CSAF and CMSAF are blustering about giving us our time back, work-life balance nonsense, and the jerks below them are piling it on more and more. So honestly, I don't have any faith in anyone in the AF anymore.

So your leadership is taking what they say to heart....they are making the minions work harder so they have more time for golf...I mean their family.

Measure Man
05-17-2013, 04:10 PM
If the USAF simply made the position of the CMSAF disappear tomorrow...would there really be any impact? At all?

Other than touring bases, giving speeches, and wearing different uniforms...what has a CMSAF done for us lately? I understand someone will jump to the CMSAF's defense and say that, "Oh you know them so well? You were a fly on the wall in all of their meetings? Yea? Yea?!"

"The CMSAF is appointed by the Air Force Chief of Staff (AF/CC) and serves as the senior enlisted advisor to the Air Force Chief of Staff and the Secretary of the Air Force on all issues regarding the welfare, readiness, morale, and proper utilization and progress of the enlisted force."

Judging from the way the AF is today...great advising there, champions.

No impact.

The CSAF doesn't really need "advising on enlisted matters"...he's been in like what 30 years? I think he's comfortable with the concept of an enlisted force.

I know one thing...we have too many Command Chiefs running around.

crwchf16
05-17-2013, 05:58 PM
Let's give the CSAF and CMSAF a chance. I wouldn't want either of their jobs...their schedules are hell, they are constantly on the road or testifying to congress. The pressure to "fix" everything is immense. They can have it. I know we all want everything our way right now, but they like their predecessors will be mired in the muck for a while and lucky to see most of their "ideas" come to fruition. Time will tell.

I agree with BUFJR8 on this one, the Chief has been on the job barely 5 months. Give him a year to do his job and see what changes we have.

Measure Man
05-17-2013, 08:16 PM
Since I joined in 1983, the only CMSAF that I truly recall having a legacy is Campanale with the 1+1 dorm issue.

I recall that was his issue...he owned it, he ran with it, and made it happen.

Other CMSAFs played a role in other major changes...but, I can't think of any that were driving the train. Can anyone else?

grimreaper
05-17-2013, 08:22 PM
I know one thing...we have too many Command Chiefs running around.

Another worthless position. If the CC needs to talk enlisted matters with Chiefs, go talk to the Chief's Group. Or for that matter, the Top III or the 5/6.

BOSS302
05-18-2013, 01:52 AM
Another worthless position. If the CC needs to talk enlisted matters with Chiefs, go talk to the Chief's Group. Or for that matter, the Top III or the 5/6.

This ^.

/close thread

jondstewart
05-18-2013, 03:30 AM
Not sure if you saw the rates for 13E7 before you posted but this rate is the lowest its been in over 36 years (possibly ever since WAPS went to once a year vs twice a year).

Sorry I wasn't more clear on E7 promotion; I wasn't aware! Promotion to E5 was considered "automatic" when I made it in 1997, but the promotion rate that year was maybe 15% and the average person making E5 had 7 or 8 years in. Some 75% of people now retire as E7, so yes, I have considered it somewhat automatic, since E5 and E6 have become no-brainers

BOSS302
05-18-2013, 04:53 AM
Sorry I wasn't more clear on E7 promotion; I wasn't aware! Promotion to E5 was considered "automatic" when I made it in 1997, but the promotion rate that year was maybe 15% and the average person making E5 had 7 or 8 years in. Some 75% of people now retire as E7, so yes, I have considered it somewhat automatic, since E5 and E6 have become no-brainers

How can a promotion rate be "somewhat automatic"? If it's not 100%, then it is not automatic. MSgt is not a "somewhat automatic" promotion.

imported_DannyJ
05-18-2013, 05:07 AM
Sorry I wasn't more clear on E7 promotion; I wasn't aware! Promotion to E5 was considered "automatic" when I made it in 1997, but the promotion rate that year was maybe 15% and the average person making E5 had 7 or 8 years in. Some 75% of people now retire as E7, so yes, I have considered it somewhat automatic, since E5 and E6 have become no-brainers

TSgt is NOT automatic. It is after 10 years TIG, but calling it automatic is rather inaccurate for anyone that makes it before about 13 yrs TIS. MSgt is hella not automatic either. SSgt? Yes.

Now to address the OP. No, I don't. Not all the way at least. I see the EPR changing. I've been hearing a lot about it, and believe much of what I've heard, especially from who I heard it from. The PT review? I don't see the PT standards changing IMO, but honestly, if I were to pick between the two issues I want addressed it would be the EPR. On other topics, like returning time to Airman, I don't see that happening, at all. Too many 0-6s happy with the way things are.