PDA

View Full Version : SNCO Academy (SNCOA) Awards Program and the "eye test"



loadsmith
05-09-2013, 04:20 PM
A co-worker recently returned the SNCOA and was telling us about the "eye test" that is used at the academy for their awards program. They said that MFRs are given at the end of the course to those folks (20% of class) perceived as "not looking professional" in their uniforms. You can still receive an "excellent" on your PT test but if you don't pass this "eye test" you are removed from consideration from any awards.

Has anyone recently attended the SNCOA or ever heard of this occurring at any other PME schools?

Tak
05-09-2013, 04:24 PM
Sncoa is for pussies.

What happened to roys push for jpme...

Measure Man
05-09-2013, 04:25 PM
A co-worker recently returned the SNCOA and was telling us about the "eye test" that is used at the academy for their awards program. They said that MFRs are given at the end of the course to those folks (20% of class) perceived as "not looking professional" in their uniforms. You can still receive an "excellent" on your PT test but if you don't pass this "eye test" you are removed from consideration from any awards.

Has anyone recently attended the SNCOA or ever heard of this occurring at any other PME schools?

...and no nerds!

Never saw an eye test. When I went to NCO leadership school years ago, the Chief made a big deal about how the awards "aint gonna go to no cerebrals just cuz they ace the tests"...but that they were gonna go to the dudes who shouted and screamed at volleyball and marching and made up study sheets to help everyone, etc.

RobotChicken
05-09-2013, 04:25 PM
:frusty Contacts ok?

KellyinAvon
05-09-2013, 04:27 PM
Is the Commandant an anorexic?

cope0181
05-09-2013, 04:28 PM
Heard of nothing like this at NCOA.

KellyinAvon
05-09-2013, 04:30 PM
...and no nerds!

Never saw an eye test. When I went to NCO leadership school years ago, the Chief made a big deal about how the awards "aint gonna go to no cerebrals just cuz they ace the tests"...but that they were gonna go to the dudes who shouted and screamed at volleyball and marching and made up study sheets to help everyone, etc.

That would explain how PT GOD has excelled in the AF.

SomeRandomGuy
05-09-2013, 04:36 PM
...and no nerds!

Never saw an eye test. When I went to NCO leadership school years ago, the Chief made a big deal about how the awards "aint gonna go to no cerebrals just cuz they ace the tests"...but that they were gonna go to the dudes who shouted and screamed at volleyball and marching and made up study sheets to help everyone, etc.

I heard about a guy a few years ago who got kicked out of NCOA for cheating. Everyday they would line up in formation and someone would randomly be picked to recite the Airman's creed. He taped a copy of the creed to the back of the person in front of him. He ended up getting caught and kicked out for being too lazy to memorize a stupid creed.

cope0181
05-09-2013, 04:43 PM
I heard about a guy a few years ago who got kicked out of NCOA for cheating. Everyday they would line up in formation and someone would randomly be picked to recite the Airman's creed. He taped a copy of the creed to the back of the person in front of him. He ended up getting caught and kicked out for being too lazy to memorize a stupid creed.

He is a genius

Tak
05-09-2013, 04:43 PM
Heard of nothing like this at NCOA.

Who asked about NCOA?!?

cope0181
05-09-2013, 04:47 PM
Who asked about NCOA?!?




Has anyone recently attended the SNCOA or ever heard of this occurring at any other PME schools?

The OP did.

Measure Man
05-09-2013, 04:48 PM
That would explain how PT GOD has excelled in the AF.

After that speech, it got pretty easy to identify the woodchucks though...we got like 8-10 study sheets made up by dudes who were also practically cheerleading the volleyball games...lol

Tak
05-09-2013, 04:50 PM
The OP did.

Yeah, happens when I don't read posts fully.
Thanks...been awhile since I went to keesler NCOA in
05, they had corrective custody back then, now
No correcting, just discharging.

TJMAC77SP
05-09-2013, 04:56 PM
Is the Commandant an anorexic?

It often boils down to very personal agendas.

I had to appear before a three member board in order to attend NCOA at Tyndall in the early 90’s. The board was chaired by the Wing SEA (prior to CCM position). He was flanked by two other Chiefs. While within weight standards I almost always was in the high tier of the weight allowance. The SEA (and I sincerely wish I could remember his name. His first name was Tommy and he went on to be Gen J. Mike Loh’s SEA at ACC. Perfect pairing because they were both complete asshat douchebags. I ran into them later in Israel and they were a complete embarrassment but I digress.)
Anyway, the Chief, who probably never weighed no more than 160 at over 6 feet tall, looks me over and comments that I look like I am possibly overweight. I slowly, very slowly looked over the two other Chiefs who looked like they never passed up a meal and were very rotund themselves and simply said, “I am within weight standards Chief and my squadron would not have nominated me if I weren’t”. I could tell he wasn’t happy with the answer but did let it go. The other two chiefs looked pretty uncomfortable.

71Fish
05-09-2013, 05:25 PM
Yeah, happens when I don't read posts fully.
Thanks...been awhile since I went to keesler NCOA in
05, they had corrective custody back then, now
No correcting, just discharging.

I was there in 05. That damn train that went by at like 0300 drove me crazy the first couple of nights. After that I never noticed it. CC was across the street from me.

Tak
05-09-2013, 05:27 PM
I was there in 05. That damn train that went by at like 0300 drove me crazy the first couple of nights. After that I never noticed it. CC was across the street from me.

I had awesome instructor, TSgt decker, would commute to see wife living in Texas...
I went Jun/Jul

71Fish
05-09-2013, 05:34 PM
I had awesome instructor, TSgt decker, would commute to see wife living in Texas...
I went Jun/Jul

I was there over Thanksgiving.

Tak
05-09-2013, 05:36 PM
It often boils down to very personal agendas.

I had to appear before a three member board in order to attend NCOA at Tyndall in the early 90’s. The board was chaired by the Wing SEA (prior to CCM position). He was flanked by two other Chiefs. While within weight standards I almost always was in the high tier of the weight allowance. The SEA (and I sincerely wish I could remember his name. His first name was Tommy and he went on to be Gen J. Mike Loh’s SEA at ACC. Perfect pairing because they were both complete asshat douchebags. I ran into them later in Israel and they were a complete embarrassment but I digress.)
Anyway, the Chief, who probably never weighed no more than 160 at over 6 feet tall, looks me over and comments that I look like I am possibly overweight. I slowly, very slowly looked over the two other Chiefs who looked like they never passed up a meal and were very rotund themselves and simply said, “I am within weight standards Chief and my squadron would not have nominated me if I weren’t”. I could tell he wasn’t happy with the answer but did let it go. The other two chiefs looked pretty uncomfortable.

Went to two boards in 3 1/2 years at Peterson. One was headed by army e-9, made me do
Facing movements, the af smsgt slammed me for not actually being in school cuz
Boss wrote package like I was. The other board the command chief asked me to describe
New af symbol at time, I had not heard we had a new one. The navy guy asked about some
Obscure aircraft, which I said I never heard of. Yep, totally screwed those ones.

SomeRandomGuy
05-09-2013, 05:56 PM
Went to two boards in 3 1/2 years at Peterson. One was headed by army e-9, made me do
Facing movements, the af smsgt slammed me for not actually being in school cuz
Boss wrote package like I was. The other board the command chief asked me to describe
New af symbol at time, I had not heard we had a new one. The navy guy asked about some
Obscure aircraft, which I said I never heard of. Yep, totally screwed those ones.

I made up my own regulations at an Amn of the Quarter board. They asked me how many rings can you wear in uniform. I asked whether they meant for a male or female? They said how many for each. I said males can only wear one but females can wear up to 3. Needless to say I didn't win.

Tak
05-09-2013, 06:36 PM
I am not trying to ruffle any feathers here. But, if one is coming up on a promotion, does the AF usually promote someone that looks like a soup sandwich?

Really truly, I don't know the parameters for promotion in the AF.

Old days one would weigh in before promotion.

DocBones
05-09-2013, 06:37 PM
I am not trying to ruffle any feathers here. But, if one is coming up on a promotion, does the AF usually promote someone that looks like a soup sandwich?

Really truly, I don't know the parameters for promotion in the AF.

Tak
05-09-2013, 06:42 PM
I am not trying to ruffle any feathers here. But, if one is coming up on a promotion, does the AF usually promote someone that looks like a soup sandwich?

Really truly, I don't know the parameters for promotion in the AF.

Old days one would weigh in before promotion.

Dickie
05-09-2013, 07:02 PM
I heard about a guy a few years ago who got kicked out of NCOA for cheating. Everyday they would line up in formation and someone would randomly be picked to recite the Airman's creed. He taped a copy of the creed to the back of the person in front of him. He ended up getting caught and kicked out for being too lazy to memorize a stupid creed.

I just graduated NCOA a month ago and I never got "Creeded". No one ever had any of us recite it.

MACHINE666
05-09-2013, 07:06 PM
I just graduated NCOA a month ago and I never got "Creeded". No one ever had any of us recite it.


The Ramstein NCOA at Kapaun was pushing the creed when I went through...luckily my home room had the creed up on a mirror, which I sat opposite to in class every day.

Our commandant had a hard-on for people memorizing that thing, and would randomly pick people to recite it at whim. He never picked me, but I was always prepared if he had.....

71Fish
05-09-2013, 07:14 PM
I had awesome instructor, TSgt decker, would commute to see wife living in Texas...
I went Jun/Jul

I should remembe my instructors name because he was really cool. I remember he was a CE guy.

TJMAC77SP
05-09-2013, 07:40 PM
I made up my own regulations at an Amn of the Quarter board. They asked me how many rings can you wear in uniform. I asked whether they meant for a male or female? They said how many for each. I said males can only wear one but females can wear up to 3. Needless to say I didn't win.

Were you counting nipple rings?

Rainmaker
05-09-2013, 08:33 PM
When sitting as a board member Rainmaker usually used the ball test. It goes like this. You place a tennis ball between her shoulder blades and drop it. If it hits the floor before it hits her ass. Then she don't pass the ball test.

Measure Man
05-09-2013, 08:58 PM
When sitting as a board member Rainmaker usually used the ball test. It goes like this. You place a tennis ball between her shoulder blades and drop it. If it hits the floor before it hits her ass. Then she don't pass the ball test.

"The other day Ernie says to me, he says, 'Soph, you got no tits and a tight box', I said to him, 'Ernie, get off my back'"

~ Bette Midler as Sophie Tucker

Absinthe Anecdote
05-09-2013, 09:09 PM
When sitting as a board member Rainmaker usually used the ball test. It goes like this. You place a tennis ball between her shoulder blades and drop it. If it hits the floor before it hits her ass. Then she don't pass the ball test.

STOP ALL THIS HORRIBLE TALK!

http://media.nbcwashington.com/images/722*406/Jeff+Krusinski+050613+centered.jpg

BRUWIN
05-09-2013, 11:06 PM
When sitting as a board member Rainmaker usually used the ball test. It goes like this. You place a tennis ball between her shoulder blades and drop it. If it hits the floor before it hits her ass. Then she don't pass the ball test.

I always wondered why a tennis ball would drop down on my head from the 2nd story of the "treehouse" everytime I walked past.

AF Comm Guy
05-10-2013, 12:55 AM
Our first sergeant council still recites that damned creed before their weekly meeting. When is the AF going to drop this silly thing?

KellyinAvon
05-10-2013, 01:16 AM
Our first sergeant council still recites that damned creed before their weekly meeting. When is the AF going to drop this silly thing?

Drop it? I never picked it up!:biggrin Glad I retired when I did.

coloringoutsidethelines
05-10-2013, 02:19 AM
Just graduated from NCOA in Florida last month and memorizing the creed wasn't required. As far as an eye test who knows? The requirements for DG were pretty vague. Supposedly a mix of grades and student and instructor feedback. It would be pretty easy for an instructor to just not give you the thumbs up and cancel you out of the award process.

DWWSWWD
05-10-2013, 06:03 PM
It would be pretty easy for an instructor to just not give you the thumbs up and cancel you out of the award process.

No can do. Students are ineligible for most awards if they fail a test, speech, writing assignment or their interpersonal eval. An instructor can make a student ineligible if they have an LOC or LOR on the student but that's it. A student may be eligible for the Commandant award if they fail something but that varies from school to school according to the Commandant.

Zxc
05-10-2013, 06:21 PM
Just graduated from NCOA in Florida last month and memorizing the creed wasn't required. As far as an eye test who knows? The requirements for DG were pretty vague. Supposedly a mix of grades and student and instructor feedback. It would be pretty easy for an instructor to just not give you the thumbs up and cancel you out of the award process.

I recall in ALS the class all had to do a computer survey where we voted for what amounted to the people that others liked the most. We had a guy who was pretty arrogant and awkward, but hard to argue with because he was pretty much always right. His papers and speeches were near perfect and he'd offer to look over stuff for classmates. People would get butthurt when he'd correct their grammar and make suggestions with red pen--sometimes stuff that wasn't absolutely necessary, but were generally improvements. The bottom line is that looking back nobody in the class put legitmatley helped others as much as this guy, but despite beating everyone else out on overall grades he scored low on the popularity contest and didn't make the cut for awards (well, he got academic achievement by default)

Dickie
05-10-2013, 06:23 PM
The Ramstein NCOA at Kapaun was pushing the creed when I went through...luckily my home room had the creed up on a mirror, which I sat opposite to in class every day.

Our commandant had a hard-on for people memorizing that thing, and would randomly pick people to recite it at whim. He never picked me, but I was always prepared if he had.....

I went to Sheppard, maybe that was the difference. But our commmandant expected us to know it, but didn't call folks out regularly.

It was Big Blue in true Big Blue form, but it wasn't as bad as I had previously thought.

Eastwood
05-11-2013, 12:13 PM
A co-worker recently returned the SNCOA and was telling us about the "eye test" that is used at the academy for their awards program. They said that MFRs are given at the end of the course to those folks (20% of class) perceived as "not looking professional" in their uniforms. You can still receive an "excellent" on your PT test but if you don't pass this "eye test" you are removed from consideration from any awards.

Has anyone recently attended the SNCOA or ever heard of this occurring at any other PME schools?

Few years ago we had a "Peer" score within the seminar. We had 12 people in our flight and we had to rank order them in 3 categories. Appearance, Leadership and potential to serve in the next grade. Was nothing more than a popularity contest. I found some of the instructors to be very unprofessional. A lot of flirting, grab ass etc. Overall, wasn’t impressed with the SNCOA.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-11-2013, 03:05 PM
Our first sergeant council still recites that damned creed before their weekly meeting. When is the AF going to drop this silly thing?


Our first sergeant council still recites that damned creed before their weekly meeting. When is the AF going to drop this silly thing?
I was the MC at a promotion ceremony once and had to read the NCO oath to some new SSgts.

After practicing it several times I decided it sounded a hell of a lot smoother if I eliminated every other, “YOU ARE CHARGED” and tied the two lines together with a slight verbal pause.
It did cross my mind that there might be someone who would notice that I was reading it differently but I felt like it sound a lot better my way.

After the ceremony someone did ask me about it but I said who reads it that way? They got a puzzled look on their face and went away. They tried to bring it up to me again later but they were interrupted by someone telling me, “hey, good job”.

If you are running a ceremony or a meeting and you don’t like the format, change it. Don’t ask permission.



AIR FORCE DIRECTIVES ARE SPECIFIC IN CHARGING EACH NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER WITH RESPONSIBILITIES TO WIT:

YOU ARE CHARGED - WITH ENSURING THAT PERSONNEL AND RESOURCES UNDER YOUR CONTROL ARE EFFECTIVELY USED.

YOU ARE CHARGED - WITH REMAINING ALERT TO DETECTING ADVERSE MORAL TRENDS AND INITIATING CORRECTIVE ACTION WITHIN YOUR CONTROL.

YOU ARE CHARGED - WITH MAINTAINING THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF COMMUNICATION AND RAPPORT WITH SUBORDINATES AND REMAINING ATTUNED TO THEIR NEEDS.

YOU ARE CHARGED - WITH ACTIVELY ENCOURAGING AND MOTIVATING ON AND OFF DUTY INVOLVEMENT IN UNIT AND BASE ACTIVITIES BY LEADING THE WAY.

YOU ARE CHARGED - WITH ENSURING THAT PEOPLE ARE TREATED FAIRLY BY ALL AGENCIES AND ACTIVITIES BOTH ON AND OFF BASE, AND INITIATING CORRECTIVE ACTION IN ANY INSTANCE THAT VIOLATES THIS PRINCIPLE.

YOU ARE CHARGED - WITH ALWAYS WEARING THE UNIFORM PROPERLY AND ENSURING COMPLIANCE FROM SUBORDINATES.

YOU ARE CHARGED - WITH A PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF ON AND OFF DUTY EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS THAT WILL ENHANCE YOUR PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT

YOU ARE CHARGED - AT ALL TIMES WITH PRESENTING AN IMAGE OF COMPETENCE, INTEGRITY AND PRIDE - THE IMAGE OF A PROFESSIONAL NCO

Rainmaker
05-13-2013, 01:21 PM
No can do. Students are ineligible for most awards if they fail a test, speech, writing assignment or their interpersonal eval. An instructor can make a student ineligible if they have an LOC or LOR on the student but that's it. A student may be eligible for the Commandant award if they fail something but that varies from school to school according to the Commandant.

Das Raciss.

20+Years
05-13-2013, 02:19 PM
Absinthe - I think you were right to read it as you did. As long as it started with You Are Charged, who cares if you said it before each single line. I'd say Good Job.

Can't even tell you all how many meetings I have sat in where some up-tight, wood-chucker (usually E-7) says something like, "We should end each meeting with the Airmens Creed". You can generally see the "oh shit" look on everyones face, or the YHGBFKM look. I have seen cases where no one will say we shouldn't recite it (don't want to look bad) so it in fact becomes reality. The few cases I've seen it get killed off were by Chiefs would say, "Look, this meeting is already long enough and people are short on time, were not going to implement anything that makes it longer".

Thats gonna be my go-to from here out when I hear these "recommendations".

Pullinteeth
05-13-2013, 02:36 PM
A co-worker recently returned the SNCOA and was telling us about the "eye test" that is used at the academy for their awards program. They said that MFRs are given at the end of the course to those folks (20% of class) perceived as "not looking professional" in their uniforms. You can still receive an "excellent" on your PT test but if you don't pass this "eye test" you are removed from consideration from any awards.

Has anyone recently attended the SNCOA or ever heard of this occurring at any other PME schools?

36-2903 allows for such things;

"The five elements of this standard are neatness, cleanliness, safety, uniformity, and military image. The first four are absolute, objective criteria needed for the efficiency and well-being of the Air Force. The fifth, military image is subjective, but necessary. Appearance in uniform is an important part of military image. Judgment on what is the proper image differs in and out of the military. The American public and its elected representatives draw certain conclusions on military effectiveness based on the image Airmen present. The image must instill public confidence and leave no doubt that Airmen live by a common standard and respond to military order and discipline. The image of a disciplined and committed Airman is incompatible with the extreme, the unusual, and the fad. Every Airman has a responsibility to maintain an ―acceptable military image,‖ as well as the right, within limits, to express individuality through his or her appearance."

Kind of like the UCMJ catch-all article...

Rainmaker
05-13-2013, 03:20 PM
Absinthe - I think you were right to read it as you did. As long as it started with You Are Charged, who cares if you said it before each single line. I'd say Good Job.

Can't even tell you all how many meetings I have sat in where some up-tight, wood-chucker (usually E-7) says something like, "We should end each meeting with the Airmens Creed". You can generally see the "oh shit" look on everyones face, or the YHGBFKM look. I have seen cases where no one will say we shouldn't recite it (don't want to look bad) so it in fact becomes reality. The few cases I've seen it get killed off were by Chiefs would say, "Look, this meeting is already long enough and people are short on time, were not going to implement anything that makes it longer".

Thats gonna be my go-to from here out when I hear these "recommendations".

Das Raciss

RobotChicken
05-14-2013, 05:37 AM
:rangerMeanwhile..as the jets fall out of the sky, because an 'overwieght' airman or officer was getting 'dressdowned' for 1 inch over belt size......:suspicious

Eastwood
05-27-2013, 02:41 PM
Our first sergeant council still recites that damned creed before their weekly meeting. When is the AF going to drop this silly thing?

That right there is the core of the AF Problem. Shirts have become nothing more than the Glee Club. The Creed has gone away for the most part and is only recited at PME Graduations. I was at a SNCOA Graduation last year and they recited the creed. One of the instructors told me that they only did it because CMSgt McKinley was in attendance. When I rolled thru Taji a couple of years ago, the Command Chief said that the Creed was not recited in the AOR. Apparently some of our sister services did not appreciate the creed. Its dead or dying, all you can do is not encourage it.

imported_DannyJ
05-27-2013, 04:05 PM
That right there is the core of the AF Problem. Shirts have become nothing more than the Glee Club. The Creed has gone away for the most part and is only recited at PME Graduations. I was at a SNCOA Graduation last year and they recited the creed. One of the instructors told me that they only did it because CMSgt McKinley was in attendance. When I rolled thru Taji a couple of years ago, the Command Chief said that the Creed was not recited in the AOR. Apparently some of our sister services did not appreciate the creed. Its dead or dying, all you can do is not encourage it.

I honestly wouldn't have a problem with a creed if it was truthful and relivant, neither of which the current one is. I consider it offensive (mostly to those that are true warriors) and completely out of touch with the core values.

CrustySMSgt
05-28-2013, 04:45 AM
:rangerMeanwhile..as the jets fall out of the sky, because an 'overwieght' airman or officer was getting 'dressdowned' for 1 inch over belt size......:suspicious

That line is tired and old... it's the military and if you don't realize when you raise your right hand that complying with standards is part of the package, you're a dumb ass. If you don't want to fit in the mold the AF wants you to fit in, be a GS or civilian.

Don't get me wrong, I agree there is too much "weight" put on fitness, but in the end, the standards are clear and if you choose not to comply, then you've got no one to blame but yourself.

And no, I'm not skinny

RobotChicken
05-28-2013, 05:06 AM
:tape An F-35 Would definitely be discharged on that alone!! :plane (of course if the 'standards' are not changed again) :closed_2