PDA

View Full Version : Air Force sidelines 17 ICBM launch officers; commander cites ‘rot’ within system



ConfusedAirman
05-08-2013, 10:51 AM
WASHINGTON — The Air Force stripped an unprecedented 17 officers of their authority to control — and, if necessary, launch — nuclear missiles after a string of unpublicized failings, including a remarkably dim review of their unit’s launch skills. The group’s deputy commander said it is suffering “rot” within its ranks.

“We are, in fact, in a crisis right now,” the commander, Lt. Col. Jay Folds, wrote in an internal email obtained by The Associated Press and confirmed by the Air Force.

The tip-off to trouble was a March inspection of the 91st Missile Wing at Minot Air Force Base, N.D., which earned the equivalent of a “D” grade when tested on its mastery of Minuteman III missile launch operations. In other areas, the officers tested much better, but the group’s overall fitness was deemed so tenuous that senior officers at Minot decided, after probing further, that an immediate crackdown was called for.

The Air Force publicly called the inspection a “success.”

But in April it quietly removed 17 officers at Minot from the highly sensitive duty of standing 24-hour watch over the Air Force’s most powerful nuclear missiles, the intercontinental ballistic missiles that can strike targets across the globe.

Read more at http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/ap-exclusive-air-force-sidelines-17-icbm-launch-officers-commander-cites-rot-within-system/2013/05/08/7825d8e4-b7ae-11e2-b568-6917f6ac6d9d_story.html

RingLeader
05-08-2013, 11:25 AM
Has anyone else noticed the AF is in the state of crisis? Sr. Leadership hasn't IMHO...

Want to fix it? MAKE EVERYONE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS!

Stop overturning convictions, start treating EVERYONE, Enlisted, Officers, Male and Females equally for charges.
I am getting too old for this crap; it might just be time to let the young bucks and doe’s take over.

technomage1
05-08-2013, 12:15 PM
This is what happens when you promote people based on trouser size and BBQ organizing ability.

Mcjohn1118
05-08-2013, 12:59 PM
I wonder if the following quote from Bruce Blair is accurate:
"Minuteman launch crews have long been marginalized and demoralized by the fact that the Air Force’s culture and fast-track careers revolve around flying planes, not sitting in underground bunkers baby-sitting nuclear-armed missiles."
Any missile officer out there want to take a crack at this?

Tak
05-08-2013, 01:01 PM
Both minot wings passed their combined unit inspection.
End of story.

But...

The real story is years ago when nuclear mess happened, they blamed
The little man with "return to basics" and " reinvigorate"...
When in fact the big reviews found systemic problems over
Many years at highest of levels.

imported_AFKILO7
05-08-2013, 01:17 PM
This is what happens when you promote people based on trouser size and BBQ organizing ability.

I personally agree with statement and I would go a step further and say piss poor "leadership" from the Officer and SNCO levels helped create the mess we see at Lackland as well. The Air Force is slowly turning into a daycare, meaning instead of addressing negative behavior appropriately it is easier to redirect. You don't actually teach the offender anything regarding their poor choices or mistakes.

Tak
05-08-2013, 01:26 PM
Fyi, years back another sq did so bad, the grp cc made them take their nametags off their flight suits.

Venus
05-08-2013, 01:44 PM
It started when the USSR folded and a true mission disappeared. Then the coup de gras was when SAC was disbanded and ACC took over and marginalized most of the troops who are part of our nuclear triad unlike the Navy with the TACAMO's and Ohio Class subs who stay on high state of readiness. Then the environment of the USAF changed of being good at your job was discounted and fluff, waist size, and useless degrees took over. One thing I noticed about today's Airmen is that most of them are not proud to be in the unit they are in besides the Spec ops community or fighter pilots. Don't get me wrong being in SAC was not easy, you followed checklists to the letter, ORI's, long hours, and arctic conditions but when we in SAC looked at the rest of the Air Force we had a inner pride enduring the hardships of it especially my own experiences being on alert and keeping my tanker or buff ready to go. You got to know what it was all about when looked into the bomb bay and saw items that could wipe out life on earth. Am I wrong?

Tak
05-08-2013, 01:47 PM
It started when the USSR folded and a true mission disappeared. Then the coup de gras was when SAC was disbanded and ACC took over and marginalized most of the troops who are part of our nuclear triad unlike the Navy with the TACAMO's and Ohio Class subs who stay on high state of readiness. Then the environment of the USAF changed of being good at your job was discounted and fluff, waist size, and useless degrees took over. One thing I noticed about today's Airmen is that most of them are not proud to be in the unit they are in besides the Spec ops community or fighter pilots. Don't get me wrong being in SAC was not easy, you followed checklists to the letter, ORI's, long hours, and arctic conditions but when we in SAC looked at the rest of the Air Force we had a inner pride enduring the hardships of it especially my own experiences being on alert and keeping my tanker or buff ready to go. You got to know what it was all about when looked into the bomb bay and saw items that could wipe out life on earth. Am I wrong?

Don't forget missiles went to afspc.

ttribe
05-08-2013, 01:51 PM
Between this and TRIPOD boy, I wouldn't be surprised to see the SecDef fire some Welsh and maybe the SECAF.

Dickie
05-08-2013, 02:06 PM
It started when the USSR folded and a true mission disappeared. Then the coup de gras was when SAC was disbanded and ACC took over and marginalized most of the troops who are part of our nuclear triad unlike the Navy with the TACAMO's and Ohio Class subs who stay on high state of readiness. Then the environment of the USAF changed of being good at your job was discounted and fluff, waist size, and useless degrees took over. One thing I noticed about today's Airmen is that most of them are not proud to be in the unit they are in besides the Spec ops community or fighter pilots. Don't get me wrong being in SAC was not easy, you followed checklists to the letter, ORI's, long hours, and arctic conditions but when we in SAC looked at the rest of the Air Force we had a inner pride enduring the hardships of it especially my own experiences being on alert and keeping my tanker or buff ready to go. You got to know what it was all about when looked into the bomb bay and saw items that could wipe out life on earth. Am I wrong?

On point with this one.

Tak
05-08-2013, 02:08 PM
It reads like a disgruntled person forwarded an official email to media

BISSBOSS
05-08-2013, 02:51 PM
I've often said that (IMHO) the AF hasn't been in the business of "growing" professional military members in a LOOOONG time!

Before I retired - We called them "Promotees" a moniker indicating a person who attained their rank based not on merit or job competencies but on an artificial set of vague and constantly shifting concepts having very little to do with what it takes to accomplish the mission.

I came from the Comm world but worked heavily in the Nuclear Enterprise. The Communications Squadron didn't really know "what to do with us" as put to me by a Comm Chief!

I've worked for the IG during MANY NSIs and seen first hand the deterioration of skills and the lowering of PRP standards over the years. The quote about Rot is absolutely spot on.

AGAIN - In my opinion, the USAF will be lucky to come out of this as a separate uniformed force within the DoD. They are confirming in a very public fashion that their house is NOT in order and that the problems run very deeply.

-BB-

Measure Man
05-08-2013, 02:57 PM
They are confirming in a very public fashion that their house is NOT in order and that the problems run very deeply.

-BB-

This is true. The AF is broke...somewhere around the turn of the century, maybe a little earlier...job performance became unimportant.

We now have SNCOs and FGOs who have never known an AF that emphasized technical skills.

Tak
05-08-2013, 03:00 PM
I've often said that (IMHO) the AF hasn't been in the business of "growing" professional military members in a LOOOONG time!

Before I retired - We called them "Promotees" a moniker indicating a person who attained their rank based not on merit or job competencies but on an artificial set of vague and constantly shifting concepts having very little to do with what it takes to accomplish the mission.

I came from the Comm world but worked heavily in the Nuclear Enterprise. The Communications Squadron didn't really know "what to do with us" as put to me by a Comm Chief!

I've worked for the IG during MANY NSIs and seen first hand the deterioration of skills and the lowering of PRP standards over the years. The quote about Rot is absolutely spot on.

AGAIN - In my opinion, the USAF will be lucky to come out of this as a separate uniformed force within the DoD. They are confirming in a very public fashion that their house is NOT in order and that the problems run very deeply.

-BB-

Yes, the house has been out of order a long time.
Easier to pin on lower levels then top leadership.

I was hoping you'd chime in BB.

Tak
05-08-2013, 03:02 PM
This is a great article, laying out problems at highest levels.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2008/06/breaking-air-fo/

BISSBOSS
05-08-2013, 03:11 PM
Yes, the house has been out of order a long time.
Easier to pin on lower levels then top leadership.

I was hoping you'd chime in BB.

Nukes and decay in the Air Force!?! How could I NOT chime in!

The decay (or "rot") has been going on for YEARS..! The culture i the AF fosters it. The standards are continuously watered down, loosened or changed to fit the whims of week (ie - clapping during the Air Force Song and continuing to change the PT standards to lower the AF end strength numbers)...

It is a far cry from the Air Force that I joined and a far cry from the service it advertises itself to be.

Tak
05-08-2013, 03:21 PM
Nukes and decay in the Air Force!?! How could I NOT chime in!

The decay (or "rot") has been going on for YEARS..! The culture i the AF fosters it. The standards are continuously watered down, loosened or changed to fit the whims of week (ie - clapping during the Air Force Song and continuing to change the PT standards to lower the AF end strength numbers)...

It is a far cry from the Air Force that I joined and a far cry from the service it advertises itself to be.

Concur.

Now time for my retirement nap.

Note, the unit sidelining people got a SAT...there have been worse than that...

VFFTSGT
05-08-2013, 03:35 PM
This is what happens when you promote people based on trouser size and BBQ organizing ability.

True Story. And this nuclear "sideline" is just a small sample of the larger Air Force problems.


This is true. The AF is broke...somewhere around the turn of the century, maybe a little earlier...job performance became unimportant.

We now have SNCOs and FGOs who have never known an AF that emphasized technical skills.

Agreed. My unit has been falling apart for sometime. I tried to turn things around; no one including leadership cared anything about it...only red dots on powerpoint slides, BBQ's, PT, and other "feel good" tasks were important.


I personally agree with statement and I would go a step further and say piss poor "leadership" from the Officer and SNCO levels helped create the mess we see at Lackland as well. The Air Force is slowly turning into a daycare, meaning instead of addressing negative behavior appropriately it is easier to redirect. You don't actually teach the offender anything regarding their poor choices or mistakes.

This is government in general. No accountability.

BRUWIN
05-08-2013, 03:43 PM
AGAIN - In my opinion, the USAF will be lucky to come out of this as a separate uniformed force within the DoD.

I've predicted that several times starting about two years ago in this very same forum. People ignored me. The AF gets closer everyday. It's amazing the crap that continues to happen.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-08-2013, 04:23 PM
Maybe flunking inspections and pulling certifications is the way to fix incompetence?

I would be more concerned if they were passing inspections and letting people who can’t pass their stan-evals continue to serve.

crwchf16
05-08-2013, 04:24 PM
It is a far cry from the Air Force that I joined and a far cry from the service it advertises itself to be.

And it's a far cry from what those still slogging along, putting in the long hours deserve. These are the guys who still believe in what we do as a service (core mission) but as has been pointed out, they have been overrun and shouted down by the PT/BBQ-organizer mob.
I think the first step in correcting this debacle is to bring back SAC with it's zero-tolerance mindset. The trick though is to bring back its rewards as well as its punishments. I wasn't in the AF to witness this first hand so I'll ask the old timers with experience to set the record straight here. Am I right in thinking that while you had a very tough, unforgving job and those who couldn't hack it got busted fast, those who proved themselves up to the task got promotoed quicker? Bring back a tough system such as that which rewards WORK performance over extra-curricular crap and things will start to turn around.

Tak
05-08-2013, 04:59 PM
The Air Force will/is doing it's standard nuclear screw-up drill

Step 1: Senior leadership make speeches and pronouncements with liberal use of the words 'accountability' and 'zero-tolerance for errors in the nuclear enterprise'.

Step 2: Fire/discipline a few low-to-mid level individuals who may, or may not, actually have anything to do with the problem or issue. Note: Being innocent of the issue is irrelevant as long as enough individuals are "held accountable" to ensure the AF "accountability" message is advanced to senior leader satisfaction. Bonus points if this is done immediatley after speeches about how the AF cares about you, your career and your family.

Step 3: Replace competent individuals who were fired with 2d tier individuals with 32 inch waist and who can plan a really good BBQ. Technical job competency is irrelevant but he must never ever have been seen drunk or reading a Mens Health magazine. Bonus points if wives are friends on Facebook.

Step 4: Drive the remaining low-to mid level individuals into the ground with unrelenting and repetitive exercises/mock inspections at the expense of useful training and exercises. Preferably during holidays and weekends. Again, bonus points if done immediatley after speeches about how the AF cares about you, your career and your family. Liberal use of marginally competent and non-current inspectors is mandatory.

Step 5: Reinspect, pass with flying colors

Step 6: Declare nuclear enterprise reinvigorated.

Step 7: Senior leaders pat themselves on back for job well done.

Step 8: Cut funding and personnel for nuclear enterprise. Declare units/individuals will have to "do more with less". Bonus points again if done immediately after making speech about how AF cares about you, your career and your family.

Step 9: Promote second tier individuals to senior leadership track.

Step 10: Rinse, repeat

totally agree...
I personally was put through an open ranks inspection

Sunshine52
05-08-2013, 04:59 PM
The Air Force will/is doing it's standard nuclear screw-up drill

Step 1: Senior leadership make speeches and pronouncements with liberal use of the words 'accountability' and 'zero-tolerance for errors in the nuclear enterprise'.

Step 2: Fire/discipline a few low-to-mid level individuals who may, or may not, actually have anything to do with the problem or issue. Note: Being innocent of the issue is irrelevant as long as enough individuals are "held accountable" to ensure the AF "accountability" message is advanced to senior leader satisfaction. Bonus points if this is done immediatley after speeches about how the AF cares about you, your career and your family.

Step 3: Replace competent individuals who were fired with 2d tier individuals with 32 inch waist and who can plan a really good BBQ. Technical job competency is irrelevant but 2d tier individual must never ever have been seen drunk or reading a Mens Health magazine. Bonus points if wives are friends on Facebook. Extra, extra bonus points if the 2d tier individual is female, gay, a minority. Bonus points are cumulative.

Step 4: Drive the remaining low-to mid level individuals into the ground with unrelenting and repetitive exercises/mock inspections at the expense of useful training and exercises. Preferably during holidays and weekends. Again, bonus points if done immediatley after speeches about how the AF cares about you, your career and your family. Liberal use of marginally competent and non-current inspectors is mandatory.

Step 5: Reinspect, pass with flying colors. Again, liberal use of marginally competent and non-current inspectors is mandatory.

Step 6: Declare nuclear enterprise reinvigorated.

Step 7: Senior leaders pat themselves on back for job well done.

Step 8: Cut funding and personnel for nuclear enterprise. Declare units/individuals will have to "do more with less". Bonus points again if done immediately after making speech about how AF cares about you, your career and your family.

Step 9: Promote second tier individuals to senior leadership track.

Step 10: Rinse, repeat

Sunshine52
05-08-2013, 05:20 PM
totally agree...
I personally was put through an open ranks inspection

That would be Step 4.

Drive the remaining low-to mid level individuals into the ground with unrelenting and repetitive exercises/mock inspections at the expense of useful training and exercises.

Tak
05-08-2013, 05:32 PM
That would be Step 4.

Drive the remaining low-to mid level individuals into the ground with unrelenting and repetitive exercises/mock inspections at the expense of useful training and exercises.

Seriously, Ive been at Minot so long, I remember making posters for the 91st in referencing "Daily Excellence"
years ago, then later on it morphed into "Perfection is the standard"
Now I tell you, sometimes 99.9% is not good enough, but asking 100% from brand new airman chefs, to
young ssgt FMs or young LT missileers, is a good target that will be missed more often than nought.

http://www.legitgov.org/minot_afb_nukes_oddities.html

Venus
05-08-2013, 05:37 PM
And it's a far cry from what those still slogging along, putting in the long hours deserve. These are the guys who still believe in what we do as a service (core mission) but as has been pointed out, they have been overrun and shouted down by the PT/BBQ-organizer mob.
I think the first step in correcting this debacle is to bring back SAC with it's zero-tolerance mindset. The trick though is to bring back its rewards as well as its punishments. I wasn't in the AF to witness this first hand so I'll ask the old timers with experience to set the record straight here. Am I right in thinking that while you had a very tough, unforgving job and those who couldn't hack it got busted fast, those who proved themselves up to the task got promotoed quicker? Bring back a tough system such as that which rewards WORK performance over extra-curricular crap and things will start to turn around.[/QUOTE]

More proud of this than any medal or award I ever got, it was the recognition that I did my job and was respected and counted on to get it done. Something that is sorely missing in today's USAF.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/428729_525764390793930_1917500961_n.jpg

OtisRNeedleman
05-08-2013, 05:40 PM
Between this and TRIPOD boy, I wouldn't be surprised to see the SecDef fire some Welsh and maybe the SECAF. SecAF is on his way out. Welsh hasn't been there long.

Tak
05-08-2013, 05:42 PM
http://formerspook.blogspot.com/2008/01/what-happened-at-minot-in-from-cold.html

http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20080225/NEWS/802250327/Nuclear-safety-slipped-years-before-Minot

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/awc/2011_ericson-amended.pdf

OtisRNeedleman
05-08-2013, 05:43 PM
And it's a far cry from what those still slogging along, putting in the long hours deserve. These are the guys who still believe in what we do as a service (core mission) but as has been pointed out, they have been overrun and shouted down by the PT/BBQ-organizer mob.
I think the first step in correcting this debacle is to bring back SAC with it's zero-tolerance mindset. The trick though is to bring back its rewards as well as its punishments. I wasn't in the AF to witness this first hand so I'll ask the old timers with experience to set the record straight here. Am I right in thinking that while you had a very tough, unforgving job and those who couldn't hack it got busted fast, those who proved themselves up to the task got promotoed quicker? Bring back a tough system such as that which rewards WORK performance over extra-curricular crap and things will start to turn around.

More proud of this than any medal or award I ever got, it was the recognition that I did my job and was respected and counted on to get it done. Something that is sorely missing in today's USAF.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/428729_525764390793930_1917500961_n.jpg[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I felt the same way when I got my ATC Master Instructor cookie. Matter of fact, since I worked in a training support job while at Randolph, I could continue to wear the cookie. Altogether wore that Master Instructor cookie from 1985 to 1992.

JD2780
05-08-2013, 05:45 PM
I felt that way when I got my combat action badges and combat patches from the Army. Then AF said we can't have those. Effing dorks.

Measure Man
05-08-2013, 05:47 PM
And it's a far cry from what those still slogging along, putting in the long hours deserve. These are the guys who still believe in what we do as a service (core mission) but as has been pointed out, they have been overrun and shouted down by the PT/BBQ-organizer mob.
I think the first step in correcting this debacle is to bring back SAC with it's zero-tolerance mindset. The trick though is to bring back its rewards as well as its punishments. I wasn't in the AF to witness this first hand so I'll ask the old timers with experience to set the record straight here. Am I right in thinking that while you had a very tough, unforgving job and those who couldn't hack it got busted fast, those who proved themselves up to the task got promotoed quicker? Bring back a tough system such as that which rewards WORK performance over extra-curricular crap and things will start to turn around
More proud of this than any medal or award I ever got, it was the recognition that I did my job and was respected and counted on to get it done. Something that is sorely missing in today's USAF.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/428729_525764390793930_1917500961_n.jpg

I have my SAC Master Technician badge proudly displayed in my shadow box...my retiring official noted it and talked about what it meant for quite a bit.

Tak
05-08-2013, 05:52 PM
By Michael Hoffman - AF Times Staff writer
Posted : Friday May 30, 2008 15:10:15 EDT

The 5th Bomb Wing at Minot Air Force Base, N.D., has failed its much-anticipated defense nuclear surety inspection, according to a Defense Threat Reduction Agency report.

DRTA inspectors gave the wing an “unsatisfactory” grade Sunday after uncovering many crucial mistakes during the weeklong inspection, which began May 17. They attributed the errors primarily to lack of supervision and leadership among security forces.
Inspectors from Air Combat Command also participated, but the Air Force refused to provide specifics on their findings.

Security broke down on multiple levels during simulated attacks across the base, including against nuclear weapons storage areas, according to the DTRA report, a copy of which was obtained by Air Force Times.

Inspectors watched as a security forces airman played video games on his cell phone while standing guard at a “restricted area perimeter,” the DTRA report said. Meanwhile, another airman nearby was “unaware of her duties and responsibilities” during the exercise.

The lapses are baffling, given the high-level focus on Minot since last August, when 5th Bomb Wing airmen mistakenly loaded six nuclear-tipped cruise missiles onto a B-52 Stratofortress and flew them to Barksdale Air Force Base, La., where the plane sat on the flight line, unattended, for hours. That incident not only embarrassed the Air Force, but raised concerns worldwide about the deterioration in U.S. nuclear safety standards.

Col. Joel Westa took command of the 5th Bomb Wing following that fiasco. After it failed an initial nuclear surety inspection, or dry run, in December, Westa acknowledged this inspection was going to be the “most scrutinized inspection in the history of time.”

Even so, airmen were unprepared.

“Overall their assessment painted a picture of some things we need to work on in the areas of training and discipline,” Westa said in a statement.

His airmen are working diligently to correct deficiencies, he said.

Inspectors from Air Combat Command will now return to Minot in August to determine if the necessary improvements have been made. Eventually, the wing will have to pass a full defense nuclear surety inspection.

Although the wing failed, it will keep its certification to handle nuclear weapons and will carry on with training right up to the day ACC inspectors revisit the base, said Maj. Thomas Crosson, a command spokesman. The base lost its certification immediately after the incident last August and didn’t have it restored until March 31, after it passed a second dry run.

The wing will participate in both a Red Flag exercise this summer and a nuclear readiness operation exercise as it prepares for the inspectors’ next visit, Crosson said.

DTRA inspectors gave the wing passing grades in nine of 10 areas they examined, including safety and technical operations, but failed it for its nuclear security.

“The most serious failure is the one regarding security, which is exactly what the Minot incident was all about,” said Hans Kristensen, director of the Nuclear Information Project at the Federation of American Scientists.

Litany of failure
The DRTA report highlighted an incredible number of gaffes:

* An internal security response team didn’t respond to its “pre-designated defensive fighting position” during an attack on the weapon storage area, leaving an entire side of the maintenance facility vulnerable to enemy fire.

* Security forces didn’t clear a building upon entering it, which allowed inspectors to “kill” three of those four airmen.

* Security forces failed to use the correct entry codes, issued that week, to allow certain personnel into restricted areas.

* Security forces airmen failed to properly check an emergency vehicle for unauthorized personnel when it arrived at a weapons storage area, or search it correctly once it left.

* While wing airmen simulated loading an aircraft with nuclear weapons, security forces airmen failed to investigate vulnerabilities on the route from the storage area to the flight line, and didn’t arm three SF airmen posted at traffic control points along that route.

* While on the aircraft, one flight of security forces airmen didn’t understand key nuclear surety terminology, including the “two-person concept” — the security mechanism that requires two people to arm a nuclear weapon in case the codes fall into the hands of an airman gone bad.

“Security forces’ level of knowledge, understanding of assigned duties, and response to unusual situations reflected a lack of adequate supervision,” wrote the DTRA team chief.

Security forces leaders rarely visited their airmen on post, and routine exercises “were neither robust nor taken to their logical conclusion,” according to the report.

After reviewing base records, inspectors found “leaders were unengaged [in] the proper supervision of SF airmen.”

“If the leadership is still unengaged after all that has happened with the warheads, the missing ballistic missile fuses and problems with the first inspection, then they’re not fit to have this mission,” Kristensen said. “It’s really frightening.”

Security forces errors made up the majority of the 14-page DTRA inspection report, but inspectors found fault with other parts of operations, including late status reports and major errors in the wing’s personnel reliability program, which dictates who can handle nukes.

While reviewing records, inspectors found one individual cleared to handle nukes had been “diagnosed for alcohol abuse” but was allowed to keep his certification, according to the report.

More fallout?
Immediately after the loss of control over the six nuclear warheads last August, the former 5th Bomb Wing commander was fired, along with three other high-ranking officers. Sixty-nine airmen temporarily lost their certification to handle nukes.

Crosson said there are no plans to fire any “key personnel” now. He did not rule out punitive actions for other airmen, however.

This latest setback comes shortly after Air Force officials announced plans to form a new B-52 squadron at Minot, which will allow one bomber squadron to focus solely on the nuclear mission. The move is largely in response to the findings of a blue ribbon panel, which told Congress the bomber force had lost sight of the nuclear mission due to the heavy demands of supporting troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

“Several of the senior [Defense Department] people interviewed believe that the decline in focus has been more pronounced than realized and too extreme to be acceptable,” according to a report written by a Defense Science Board task force headed by retired Air Force Gen. Larry Welch, a former chief of staff.

Considering the level of resources dedicated to ensuring the 5th Bomb Wing could meet standards — including the arrival of new senior noncommissioned officers from other bases — Kristensen said he worries about nuclear security not only at Minot but across the service.

“It makes you wonder what’s going on elsewhere, like the nuclear weapons stationed at bases overseas, and at Barksdale Air Force Base and Whiteman Air Force Base,” he said.

ACC officials said the command will continue to support the 5th Bomb Wing’s leadership and provide the manning to fix security problems.

“We take our responsibilities to protect and safeguard weapons with the utmost seriousness, and understand there is zero tolerance for errors,” according to an ACC statement.

Airmen with the 5th Bomb Wing can expect more long hours ahead as the wing scrambles to fix its security holes before ACC inspectors return.

“They really need to drill their people to make sure this can’t happen,” Kristensen said.

It’s not the first time airmen at Minot have heard such warnings.

Tak
05-08-2013, 06:00 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/18/air.force.nukes/index.html?_s=PM:US

"In the wake of recent problems, Defense Secretary Robert Gates and top Air Force officials have indicated a zero tolerance for failing inspections"

Tak
05-08-2013, 06:04 PM
http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20081219/NEWS/812190326/Kehler-NSI-failures-part-solution

Venus
05-08-2013, 06:11 PM
I have my SAC Master Technician badge proudly displayed in my shadow box...my retiring official noted it and talked about what it meant for quite a bit.

All of you that have responded to my SAC Master Crew Chief badge picture the way troops who had pride in what they did. Does this exist any where else in today's USAF? I remember wearing it when I showed up to work in a TAC outfit and was immediately told by supervision to get it off my uniform asap. I think the SAC mentality of all are important to getting the mission done went against the ACC/TAC mindset and that is where we went wrong as a service. Now SAC wasn't perfect which showed up in Desert Storm of not being flexible enough to bend to the situation on the battlefield but it was still effective.

ex prosup
05-08-2013, 06:27 PM
It started when the USSR folded and a true mission disappeared. Then the coup de gras was when SAC was disbanded and ACC took over and marginalized most of the troops who are part of our nuclear triad unlike the Navy with the TACAMO's and Ohio Class subs who stay on high state of readiness. Then the environment of the USAF changed of being good at your job was discounted and fluff, waist size, and useless degrees took over. One thing I noticed about today's Airmen is that most of them are not proud to be in the unit they are in besides the Spec ops community or fighter pilots. Don't get me wrong being in SAC was not easy, you followed checklists to the letter, ORI's, long hours, and arctic conditions but when we in SAC looked at the rest of the Air Force we had a inner pride enduring the hardships of it especially my own experiences being on alert and keeping my tanker or buff ready to go. You got to know what it was all about when looked into the bomb bay and saw items that could wipe out life on earth. Am I wrong?

Plus +1...agree with all. SAC will be back!

ex prosup
05-08-2013, 06:35 PM
More proud of this than any medal or award I ever got, it was the recognition that I did my job and was respected and counted on to get it done. Something that is sorely missing in today's USAF.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/428729_525764390793930_1917500961_n.jpg

Yeah, I felt the same way when I got my ATC Master Instructor cookie. Matter of fact, since I worked in a training support job while at Randolph, I could continue to wear the cookie. Altogether wore that Master Instructor cookie from 1985 to 1992.[/QUOTE]

The Master Crew Chief patch is the center-piece of my retirement shadowbox. It was damn hard to get one of those in SAC, one minor write-up in a 12 month period and the clock started all over again.

ConfusedAirman
05-08-2013, 06:41 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/18/air.force.nukes/index.html?_s=PM:US

"In the wake of recent problems, Defense Secretary Robert Gates and top Air Force officials have indicated a zero tolerance for failing inspections"

And now apparently the deputy commander of the 91st Operations Group has zero tolerance for an overall satisfactory passing that included a marginal passing of at least one area. Good for him. It's a shame that the word leaked out as this seems to be nothing for know-nothing Congressmen to worry about because there is nothing for the SeCAF or CSAF to do - they passed the inspection. But it seems this one LtCol is taking the bull by the horns to fix it - something that should have happened a long time ago. Any chance that a thousand other people in the wing busted their asses to get excellent and outstanding grades within their functional areas only to have these bozos fuck up, get a marginal in their area and bring the entire wing down to satisfactory? The idea that some of these officers had "attitude" problems, questioned superiors, and generally maintained a culture of indifference does not indicate training is needed. Counseling (wall-to-wall) and reprimands are the fix.

106PADDOCK
05-08-2013, 06:59 PM
And it's a far cry from what those still slogging along, putting in the long hours deserve. These are the guys who still believe in what we do as a service (core mission) but as has been pointed out, they have been overrun and shouted down by the PT/BBQ-organizer mob.
I think the first step in correcting this debacle is to bring back SAC with it's zero-tolerance mindset. The trick though is to bring back its rewards as well as its punishments. I wasn't in the AF to witness this first hand so I'll ask the old timers with experience to set the record straight here. Am I right in thinking that while you had a very tough, unforgiving job and those who couldn't hack it got busted fast, those who proved themselves up to the task got promoted quicker? Bring back a tough system such as that which rewards WORK performance over extra-curricular crap and things will start to turn around.

I grew up on SAC bases and watched and listen to the NCO fathers of my playmates demanding stellar performance and accountability from those around them. Forty five years later I still recall that , PRIDE( Professional Results in Daily Efforts) was the standard & motto I saw everywhere on base.........and yes the SAC troops did strut !

Tak
05-08-2013, 07:06 PM
And now apparently the deputy commander of the 91st Operations Group has zero tolerance for an overall satisfactory passing that included a marginal passing of at least one area. Good for him. It's a shame that the word leaked out as this seems to be nothing for know-nothing Congressmen to worry about because there is nothing for the SeCAF or CSAF to do - they passed the inspection. But it seems this one LtCol is taking the bull by the horns to fix it - something that should have happened a long time ago. Any chance that a thousand other people in the wing busted their asses to get excellent and outstanding grades within their functional areas only to have these bozos fuck up, get a marginal in their area and bring the entire wing down to satisfactory? The idea that some of these officers had "attitude" problems, questioned superiors, and generally maintained a culture of indifference does not indicate training is needed. Counseling (wall-to-wall) and reprimands are the fix.

I had dealings with officer, he's good shit.

OtisRNeedleman
05-08-2013, 08:27 PM
Yeah, I felt the same way when I got my ATC Master Instructor cookie. Matter of fact, since I worked in a training support job while at Randolph, I could continue to wear the cookie. Altogether wore that Master Instructor cookie from 1985 to 1992.

The Master Crew Chief patch is the center-piece of my retirement shadowbox. It was damn hard to get one of those in SAC, one minor write-up in a 12 month period and the clock started all over again.[/QUOTE]

For Master Instructor, two years on the platform, completion of a good deal of in-service training and good evaluations. I was the first officer instructor at Goodfellow in a number of years to get the master cookie.

OtisRNeedleman
05-08-2013, 08:27 PM
And now apparently the deputy commander of the 91st Operations Group has zero tolerance for an overall satisfactory passing that included a marginal passing of at least one area. Good for him. It's a shame that the word leaked out as this seems to be nothing for know-nothing Congressmen to worry about because there is nothing for the SeCAF or CSAF to do - they passed the inspection. But it seems this one LtCol is taking the bull by the horns to fix it - something that should have happened a long time ago. Any chance that a thousand other people in the wing busted their asses to get excellent and outstanding grades within their functional areas only to have these bozos fuck up, get a marginal in their area and bring the entire wing down to satisfactory? The idea that some of these officers had "attitude" problems, questioned superiors, and generally maintained a culture of indifference does not indicate training is needed. Counseling (wall-to-wall) and reprimands are the fix. One or two with bad attitudes...that's the fault of the individuals. SEVENTEEN with bad attitudes? SEVENTEEN young company-grade officers? Unit upper management - I wouldn't call it "leadership" - needs to look in the mirror and ask itself some hard questions. At least I would, but I fear I came from a different AF, and that's scary. Impression I have from the story is that the fault is all on the young officers. Where the hell were the senior captains and the field-graders?

Tak
05-08-2013, 08:34 PM
http://www.minotdailynews.com/page/content.detail/id/575351/Air-Force-sidelines-17-ICBM-officers-at-Minot-AFB.html?nav=5010

"The nuclear air force is suffering from a deep malaise caused by the declining relevance of their mission since the Cold War's end over 20 years ago," Blair said in an interview. "Minuteman launch crews have long been marginalized and demoralized by the fact that the Air Force's culture and fast-track careers revolve around flying planes, not sitting in underground bunkers baby-sitting nuclear-armed missiles."

OtisRNeedleman
05-08-2013, 08:52 PM
http://www.minotdailynews.com/page/content.detail/id/575351/Air-Force-sidelines-17-ICBM-officers-at-Minot-AFB.html?nav=5010

"The nuclear air force is suffering from a deep malaise caused by the declining relevance of their mission since the Cold War's end over 20 years ago," Blair said in an interview. "Minuteman launch crews have long been marginalized and demoralized by the fact that the Air Force's culture and fast-track careers revolve around flying planes, not sitting in underground bunkers baby-sitting nuclear-armed missiles."

Then "leadership" should have gotten off their ass, recognized the problem, and worked to ensure the missile launch officers knew they were the sharp end of America's nuclear spear. I always saw the AF as a TEAM effort, not just by pilots for pilots. For example, without the crew chiefs the planes don't fly. Without intel, the pilots don't know where to hit or what the enemy can do, etc. One of the biggest jobs of any leader is keeping his/her people motivated. Again...one or two young officers with attitude problems...their fault. SEVENTEEN....sounds like a total lack of leadership.

Going a bit further, I would bet none of these officers will remain in the AF one minute past the first time they can leave.

CJSmith
05-08-2013, 09:04 PM
By Michael Hoffman - AF Times Staff writer
Posted : Friday May 30, 2008 15:10:15 EDT

“Security forces’ level of knowledge, understanding of assigned duties, and response to unusual situations reflected a lack of adequate supervision,” wrote the DTRA team chief.

Security forces leaders rarely visited their airmen on post, and routine exercises “were neither robust nor taken to their logical conclusion,” according to the report.

After reviewing base records, inspectors found “leaders were unengaged [in] the proper supervision of SF airmen.”

I was stationed there in the late 90's as a young airman. I got the unfortunate call one day to become a augmentee at the WSA. 30 days of miserable hell in Jan. I remember my first night on post and a LT pulled up to my post asking me for my post statement (or whatever it was called). I memorized most of it but didn't have it down 100%. The dude drilled me like I was back in basic training. I made sure I had that thing down the next shift. They were strict and I remember him cruising the compound a lot with TSgt's and MSgt's. I remember them rolling up on a post and catching a SF guy sleeping. They arrested him on the spot and carted his ass out of the WSA. They didn't play back then. WTF happened?

Tak
05-08-2013, 09:40 PM
I was stationed there in the late 90's as a young airman. I got the unfortunate call one day to become a augmentee at the WSA. 30 days of miserable hell in Jan. I remember my first night on post and a LT pulled up to my post asking me for my post statement (or whatever it was called). I memorized most of it but didn't have it down 100%. The dude drilled me like I was back in basic training. I made sure I had that thing down the next shift. They were strict and I remember him cruising the compound a lot with TSgt's and MSgt's. I remember them rolling up on a post and catching a SF guy sleeping. They arrested him on the spot and carted his ass out of the WSA. They didn't play back then. WTF happened?

Well, I worked both on 5bw and 91mw side. Here's my take.
I did SF augmentee as well and had Lt give me crap for
Not saluting him, in APA on flightline. Bottomline most don't
Want to be here, that permeates every level. Upon orders here
People retire, spouses cry or don't come along. There's
Exercises non stop, deployments, inadequate manning,
People get Korea just to get out of here. Plenty of firings
Here over years, recently 91mxg cc relieved, also command
Chief relieved. In my time in 91, very strick adherence to
Everything but no buy in. How much action do people
Get maintaining missiles, at least bombers blow shit up.
Some good leaders in missile wing, but I saw tons of bad ones
And inexperienced missileers, who get no exposure to leading
People. When manning is bad, everything falls, morale, families, etc.
With no buy in and lack of leadership things will break.
It's not individuals breaking, its systems, chains of command,
Nuclear enterprise, etc. Bout sums it up.

technomage1
05-08-2013, 10:15 PM
One or two with bad attitudes...that's the fault of the individuals. SEVENTEEN with bad attitudes? SEVENTEEN young company-grade officers? Unit upper management - I wouldn't call it "leadership" - needs to look in the mirror and ask itself some hard questions. At least I would, but I fear I came from a different AF, and that's scary. Impression I have from the story is that the fault is all on the young officers. Where the hell were the senior captains and the field-graders?

This is an excellent point. It really sounds like the middle/upper ranks failed. Now lets see if the punishment stops at the junior officers or not.

Slyoldawg
05-08-2013, 10:22 PM
And it's a far cry from what those still slogging along, putting in the long hours deserve. These are the guys who still believe in what we do as a service (core mission) but as has been pointed out, they have been overrun and shouted down by the PT/BBQ-organizer mob.
I think the first step in correcting this debacle is to bring back SAC with it's zero-tolerance mindset. The trick though is to bring back its rewards as well as its punishments. I wasn't in the AF to witness this first hand so I'll ask the old timers with experience to set the record straight here. Am I right in thinking that while you had a very tough, unforgving job and those who couldn't hack it got busted fast, those who proved themselves up to the task got promotoed quicker? Bring back a tough system such as that which rewards WORK performance over extra-curricular crap and things will start to turn around.

I just got around to reading this thread and am amazed at what I am reading at what's happening to the Air Force. I spent twelve years in SAC and agree with everything said here about the SAC I served in so long ago. I was a recipient of a SAC "Spot Promotion" and that made me even more of a proud member and supporter of the Air Force and SAC. My personal view is that as the bomber generals lost control of the Air Force to the "frat boys" fighter people the downhill slide started. They treated the Air Force as a stag party at the O Club and anyone not a member was simply a PITA. I worked many part time jobs as a bartender at O Clubs around the world and I see a similarity of those times as I do now when reading the posts here. I have now been retired for longer than I served and the only contact I have with anything Air Force are these forums and the AFT. It saddens me to see what has happened to the greatest Air Force in the world.

SomeRandomGuy
05-08-2013, 10:40 PM
Well, I worked both on 5bw and 91mw side. Here's my take.
I did SF augmentee as well and had Lt give me crap for
Not saluting him, in APA on flightline. Bottomline most don't
Want to be here, that permeates every level. Upon orders here
People retire, spouses cry or don't come along. There's
Exercises non stop, deployments, inadequate manning,
People get Korea just to get out of here. Plenty of firings
Here over years, recently 91mxg cc relieved, also command
Chief relieved. In my time in 91, very strick adherence to
Everything but no buy in. How much action do people
Get maintaining missiles, at least bombers blow shit up.
Some good leaders in missile wing, but I saw tons of bad ones
And inexperienced missileers, who get no exposure to leading
People. When manning is bad, everything falls, morale, families, etc.
With no buy in and lack of leadership things will break.
It's not individuals breaking, its systems, chains of command,
Nuclear enterprise, etc. Bout sums it up.

Every now and then we get a serious post from Tak. This one hit the nail on the head. My first base was WPAFB and I did PCS inprocessing. I used to talk to every incoming and ask them how they liked their last base. I heard good and bad from just about anywhere. Some people hated florida. Some people loved Ellsworth. Some would have been happy anywhere and some would have hated anywhere. The one constant I found though was everyone hated PRP status and missile fields. I even talked to a few cops who intentionally went to mental health to lose PRP. They said PRP is basically a lifetime pass at some of these shitty bases. When you get certified you are screwed. That may or may not be true but I got the feeling that most people looked at Minot and a few other bases as prison sentences.

RFD EDIT: PRP=Personnel Reliability Program. This program is highly scrutinized and many things will get you disqualified. One example of how bad PRP sucks. If you get your wisdom teeth pulled most of the time you get percocet. If you are PRP you cannot be perscribed percocet. They get the weaker pain meds. If you get sent to ADAPT (Alcohol Assessment) you are automatically DQ'd. Basically if you are PRP everyone is in your business more than you are in your own business.

OtisRNeedleman
05-08-2013, 10:55 PM
Every now and then we get a serious post from Tak. This one hit the nail on the head. My first base was WPAFB and I did PCS inprocessing. I used to talk to every incoming and ask them how they liked their last base. I heard good and bad from just about anywhere. Some people hated florida. Some people loved Ellsworth. Some would have been happy anywhere and some would have hated anywhere. The one constant I found though was everyone hated PRP status and missile fields. I even talked to a few cops who intentionally went to mental health to lose PRP. They said PRP is basically a lifetime pass at some of these shitty bases. When you get certified you are screwed. That may or may not be true but I got the feeling that most people looked at Minot and a few other bases as prison sentences.

RFD EDIT: PRP=Personnel Reliability Program. This program is highly scrutinized and many things will get you disqualified. One example of how bad PRP sucks. If you get your wisdom teeth pulled most of the time you get percocet. If you are PRP you cannot be perscribed percocet. They get the weaker pain meds. If you get sent to ADAPT (Alcohol Assessment) you are automatically DQ'd. Basically if you are PRP everyone is in your business more than you are in your own business.

Believe I was also in PRP due to SCI access. Believe all of us with the access were. All we had to do if we were prescribed certain medications was to let our boss know. Did that once. No problem, no impact. However, that was many years ago.

OtisRNeedleman
05-08-2013, 10:59 PM
This is an excellent point. It really sounds like the middle/upper ranks failed. Now lets see if the punishment stops at the junior officers or not.

Yeah, if they are really walking the walk we need to hear of commanders/field-graders getting canned. Probably not. They seem to have their pound of flesh. Just a damned shame to see so many young officers' careers ruined when a modicum of leadership could have headed this thing off at the pass.

Slyoldawg
05-08-2013, 11:43 PM
Yeah, if they are really walking the walk we need to hear of commanders/field-graders getting canned. Probably not. They seem to have their pound of flesh. Just a damned shame to see so many young officers' careers ruined when a modicum of leadership could have headed this thing off at the pass.

Could this be just another way to "Force Reduction" along with PT and other BS being used to reduce the force?

technomage1
05-08-2013, 11:50 PM
Could this be just another way to "Force Reduction" along with PT and other BS being used to reduce the force?

No. This is actually related to the mission, unlike PT,etc. we can't possibly judge people based on their work performance since that's not critical for anything.

ConfusedAirman
05-08-2013, 11:54 PM
One or two with bad attitudes...that's the fault of the individuals. SEVENTEEN with bad attitudes? SEVENTEEN young company-grade officers? Unit upper management - I wouldn't call it "leadership" - needs to look in the mirror and ask itself some hard questions. At least I would, but I fear I came from a different AF, and that's scary. Impression I have from the story is that the fault is all on the young officers. Where the hell were the senior captains and the field-graders?
Well, I worked both on 5bw and 91mw side. Here's my take.
I did SF augmentee as well and had Lt give me crap for
Not saluting him, in APA on flightline. Bottomline most don't
Want to be here, that permeates every level. Upon orders here
People retire, spouses cry or don't come along. There's
Exercises non stop, deployments, inadequate manning,
People get Korea just to get out of here. Plenty of firings
Here over years, recently 91mxg cc relieved, also command
Chief relieved. In my time in 91, very strick adherence to
Everything but no buy in. How much action do people
Get maintaining missiles, at least bombers blow shit up.
Some good leaders in missile wing, but I saw tons of bad ones
And inexperienced missileers, who get no exposure to leading
People. When manning is bad, everything falls, morale, families, etc.
With no buy in and lack of leadership things will break.
It's not individuals breaking, its systems, chains of command,
Nuclear enterprise, etc. Bout sums it up. Two outstanding posts that needed to be read together to shed an excellent light on potential underlying causes.

B1k3rBoi
05-08-2013, 11:54 PM
Sounds like someone needs a beat down with a Resiliency stick!

VFFTSGT
05-08-2013, 11:56 PM
Every now and then we get a serious post from Tak. This one hit the nail on the head. My first base was WPAFB and I did PCS inprocessing. I used to talk to every incoming and ask them how they liked their last base. I heard good and bad from just about anywhere. Some people hated florida. Some people loved Ellsworth. Some would have been happy anywhere and some would have hated anywhere. The one constant I found though was everyone hated PRP status and missile fields. I even talked to a few cops who intentionally went to mental health to lose PRP. They said PRP is basically a lifetime pass at some of these shitty bases. When you get certified you are screwed. That may or may not be true but I got the feeling that most people looked at Minot and a few other bases as prison sentences.

RFD EDIT: PRP=Personnel Reliability Program. This program is highly scrutinized and many things will get you disqualified. One example of how bad PRP sucks. If you get your wisdom teeth pulled most of the time you get percocet. If you are PRP you cannot be perscribed percocet. They get the weaker pain meds. If you get sent to ADAPT (Alcohol Assessment) you are automatically DQ'd. Basically if you are PRP everyone is in your business more than you are in your own business.

Which is rediculous because Percocet, Vicodin, etc are a joke.

B1k3rBoi
05-09-2013, 12:01 AM
Sounds like someone needs a beat down with a Resiliency stick!

OtisRNeedleman
05-09-2013, 12:27 AM
Sounds like someone needs a beat down with a Resiliency stick!

What concerns me, and should concern all of us, is that likely many of these young officers got beat with some sort of stick until they just didn't give a shit any more. This stuff does not happen in a vacuum. I simply don't believe any of these officers came out of tech school unmotivated to do their best. It takes two to tango. Now, this Lt Col Folds believes further training and an impassioned email will magically fix these officers' attitudes. No. These officers, as Tak has put it, will do the job after their retraining and chewing-out but will never buy in. Ever. And every other young officer in that unit, in due time, either knows or will know of someone who was whacked, and they're going to be watching for unit management's next move. If unit management is smart, they're going to get back to basics and pump these men and women up, while still letting them know they are expected to adhere to standards. They'll go down into the holes on a weekend or holiday to spend time with crews. They'll beat the bushes to find people to recommend for special jobs, schools, awards, decs, etc. If unit management acts like I suspect they will act it'll be more of "the beatings will continue until morale improves". Then watch the exodus as any junior officer who even thinks he/she has or can get something going in civilian life separates at the first opportunity. And there we have a terrific waste.

Noticed we saw the email coming from the deputy group commander. What's the group commander doing? Why haven't we heard from him/her?

Tak
05-09-2013, 12:40 AM
Every now and then we get a serious post from Tak. This one hit the nail on the head. My first base was WPAFB and I did PCS inprocessing. I used to talk to every incoming and ask them how they liked their last base. I heard good and bad from just about anywhere. Some people hated florida. Some people loved Ellsworth. Some would have been happy anywhere and some would have hated anywhere. The one constant I found though was everyone hated PRP status and missile fields. I even talked to a few cops who intentionally went to mental health to lose PRP. They said PRP is basically a lifetime pass at some of these shitty bases. When you get certified you are screwed. That may or may not be true but I got the feeling that most people looked at Minot and a few other bases as prison sentences.

RFD EDIT: PRP=Personnel Reliability Program. This program is highly scrutinized and many things will get you disqualified. One example of how bad PRP sucks. If you get your wisdom teeth pulled most of the time you get percocet. If you are PRP you cannot be perscribed percocet. They get the weaker pain meds. If you get sent to ADAPT (Alcohol Assessment) you are automatically DQ'd. Basically if you are PRP everyone is in your business more than you are in your own business.

True story, my coworker, they tried to bust and kick out over 19 1/2 years in,
Had medical issues he had to wait till the end to address, back and such, because
He was worried about prp his whole career. Also, the prp nurse filled out
Form saying he could not achieve a pass, the sq cc saw it and called them
And my guy picked up the new form the next day reversing her decision.
I couldn't believe thst one. The demote package only had the new form,
I got the original stuck back in package, wing commander declined to demote or discharge.

RobotChicken
05-09-2013, 12:43 AM
:scared You are telling us that their finger is on the nukes??? :scared

Tak
05-09-2013, 12:45 AM
Two outstanding posts that needed to be read together to shed an excellent light on potential underlying causes.

Leadership likes underlying causes to stay at lower level.
Cases in point, how do 17 guys get decerted without trainers, DOs
Or Sq CCs getting paperwork?
When people slept with codes years ago, they fired the flight commanders,
One was my boss, the sq cc at the time is now a full bird. People who
Slept all civilians now.

technomage1
05-09-2013, 12:46 AM
What concerns me, and should concern all of us, is that likely many of these young officers got beat with some sort of stick until they just didn't give a shit any more. This stuff does not happen in a vacuum. I simply don't believe any of these officers came out of tech school unmotivated to do their best. It takes two to tango. Now, this Lt Col Folds believes further training and an impassioned email will magically fix these officers' attitudes. No. These officers, as Tak has put it, will do the job after their retraining and chewing-out but will never buy in. Ever. And every other young officer in that unit, in due time, either knows or will know of someone who was whacked, and they're going to be watching for unit management's next move. If unit management is smart, they're going to get back to basics and pump these men and women up, while still letting them know they are expected to adhere to standards. They'll go down into the holes on a weekend or holiday to spend time with crews. They'll beat the bushes to find people to recommend for special jobs, schools, awards, decs, etc. If unit management acts like I suspect they will act it'll be more of "the beatings will continue until morale improves". Then watch the exodus as any junior officer who even thinks he/she has or can get something going in civilian life separates at the first opportunity. And there we have a terrific waste.

Noticed we saw the email coming from the deputy group commander. What's the group commander doing? Why haven't we heard from him/her?

We once got a sat on a uci. Worked our tails off and should've done better. It was 100% the fault of command and control. That was in the out brief, it wasn't just opinion. Sad thing was, the issue had been identified over and over in exercises yet no improvement. We're all pissed as hell because of it. The chief called us all in and told us we should be proud, we gave it our all, etc. someone said, "I didn't work my ass off to get a sat". Chief just smiled sadly. What could he say?

So what does management do but recall everyone the next morning as punishment. Yeah, that really helped matters.

Tak
05-09-2013, 12:52 AM
Sounds like someone needs a beat down with a Resiliency stick!

Current leaders never blame themselves.

Chesty fined himself for bringing gun in armory...
Now that's integrity.

Tak
05-09-2013, 12:52 AM
Look this is not new.
Couple years back a sq got an unsat and another a sat.
Lowest levels always catch brunt.

SomeRandomGuy
05-09-2013, 12:52 AM
True story, my coworker, they tried to bust and kick out over 19 1/2 years in,
Had medical issues he had to wait till the end to address, back and such, because
He was worried about prp his whole career. Also, the prp nurse filled out
Form saying he could not achieve a pass, the sq cc saw it and called them
And my guy picked up the new form the next day reversing her decision.
I couldn't believe thst one. The demote package only had the new form,
I got the original stuck back in package, wing commander declined to demote or discharge.

When I was at Incirlik Turkey (big PRP base) the people on PRP had to check in and out with flight med desk. They were given massive tag to wear around that labeled them PRP. It almost seemed like they had AIDS are or something. First question anyone asked you was, Are you PRP? I think PRP might be contagious. I always said no but I have been around it all day.

Tak
05-09-2013, 12:55 AM
Years back there was a og cc who got canned, he used six ring standby as punishment
a lot and his deputy threw a folder at a crew member in a briefing, his nickname was
Crazy Eddie, yep upon pcs he made full bird.

KellyinAvon
05-09-2013, 01:34 AM
Which is rediculous because Percocet, Vicodin, etc are a joke.

A joke how? Details please.

VFFTSGT
05-09-2013, 02:35 AM
A joke how? Details please.

I've been prescribed both. Both are useless and have no effect...

I've even been on a morphine pump and it had no mental effect on me.

Tak
05-09-2013, 04:07 AM
http://blog.modernmechanix.com/our-air-force-a-farce/

RobotChicken
05-09-2013, 04:22 AM
http://blog.modernmechanix.com/our-air-force-a-farce/

:hat u nailed it, wonder if RFD will read it...:lock1

RobotChicken
05-09-2013, 04:40 AM
:hat Your 'cupkake is upside down..............

VFFTSGT
05-09-2013, 04:44 AM
http://blog.modernmechanix.com/our-air-force-a-farce/


Interesting article from just before WWII pointing out that the U.S. air force sucks ass, has slow planes, is disorganized and hobbled by politics.

So, nothing has changed...

Except instead of slow planes...we have flat out useless billion dollar paper weights....


:hat Your 'cupkake is upside down..............

It's suppose to be.

It was a flag but that hurt people's feelings and someone (forgot who now) suggested an upside down cupcake...so...

BRUWIN
05-09-2013, 12:30 PM
The nuclear missile field has always fascinated me since the movie "War Games." I've always had visions of the launch control guys spinning round in round in their missile launching seats out of sheer boredom while complaining about the change from blue to green flight suits.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-09-2013, 12:33 PM
The nuclear missile field has always fascinated me since the movie "War Games." I've always had visions of the launch control guys spinning round in round in their missile launching seats out of sheer boredom while complaining about the change from blue to green flight suits.

They always had dimwitted facility managers like Tak to keep them amused.

Tak
05-09-2013, 12:34 PM
The nuclear missile field has always fascinated me since the movie "War Games." I've always had visions of the launch control guys spinning round in round in their missile launching seats out of sheer boredom while complaining about the change from blue to green flight suits.

No so fascinating seeing them wearing big pink bunny shoes or breaking the toilet.

Kicker47
05-09-2013, 12:46 PM
After 12 years up there in both wings, my immediate reaction to this "news" was that it was obvious public posturing to "make a statement" by senior leadership.


Welsh's civilian boss, Air Force Secretary Michael Donley, suggested a silver lining to the trouble at Minot. The fact that Minot commanders identified 17 underperformers was evidence that the Air Force has strengthened its monitoring of the nuclear force, he said. And he stressed that launch crew members typically are relatively junior officers -- lieutenants and captains -- with limited service experience.

Hmmm...

First, why would a Lt Col relieve and admonish his 17 "benchwarmers" via e-mail, and not in his office, face-to-face, man-to-man? What is more effective in getting your point across?

Second, why would such an e-mail be released to the national media?

Seems like "leadership" wanted to make a public show of what they are doing to "fix the problem".

Just my opinion based on my expieriences at Minot.

JD2780
05-09-2013, 12:47 PM
I almost applied for a facility manager job. Heard lots of good things and just as many bad things. I chose my marriage and family over it.

Tak
05-09-2013, 12:53 PM
They always had dimwitted facility managers like Tak to keep them amused.

Yes, they were thankful I called them late night to let them know
There were big ole titties on cinemax. Also I was a life
Saver when I reset their internet. Tak not dimwitted, Tak special,
Hell I even brought them their food on trays and when elevator
Down, I hand carried down the latter. Lastly, I even opened the gate
For them with a crisp salute ertime...

Tak
05-09-2013, 12:55 PM
I almost applied for a facility manager job. Heard lots of good things and just as many bad things. I chose my marriage and family over it.

Good manning = heaven.
Bad manning = hell.

JD2780
05-09-2013, 01:00 PM
Good manning = heaven.
Bad manning = hell.

Yea it was a little risky for me to apply. I love the northern tier positions, but that job was risky. The wife had Minot, Malstrom, and a couple other places on her dream sheet when we decided I was getting out.

JD2780
05-09-2013, 01:03 PM
Too bad, you could have been a superstar like simple jack ABS.

Perhaps, instead I'm a dependapotomus!!!

JD2780
05-09-2013, 01:04 PM
Too bad, you could have been a superstar like simple jack ABS.

Perhaps, instead I'm a dependapotomus!!!

Absinthe Anecdote
05-09-2013, 01:05 PM
Yes, they were thankful I called them late night to let them know
There were big ole titties on cinemax. Also I was a life
Saver when I reset their internet. Tak not dimwitted, Tak special,
Hell I even brought them their food on trays and when elevator
Down, I hand carried down the latter. Lastly, I even opened the gate
For them with a crisp salute ertime...

God bless you!

Tak
05-09-2013, 01:15 PM
After 12 years up there in both wings, my immediate reaction to this "news" was that it was obvious public posturing to "make a statement" by senior leadership.



Hmmm...

First, why would a Lt Col relieve and admonish his 17 "benchwarmers" via e-mail, and not in his office, face-to-face, man-to-man? What is more effective in getting your point across?

Second, why would such an e-mail be released to the national media?

Seems like "leadership" wanted to make a public show of what they are doing to "fix the problem".

Just my opinion based on my expieriences at Minot.

How did you like it up here in both wings?

Tak
05-09-2013, 01:15 PM
God bless you!

Be wary using the G-- word around these threads...
people may get feelings hurt.

Kicker47
05-09-2013, 01:34 PM
How did you like it up here in both wings?

Both wings were somewhat difficult, but for different reasons.

The MW was the more "political" of the two. They did a lot more "for show" type nonsense. For example, as NCOIC of a shop that was strictly admin/paperwork, I devised a plan for "inspection prep" that had my guys coming in early and working late during the week, so that we wouldn't need to come in on Saturday. Basically, under my plan, my guys would get 10-12 extra hours of work in during the week, after-hours, when the building was minimally manned and quiet. If we came in on Saturday, we'd work a 8-9 hour shift (probably less if the CC came around in the afternoon to cut people loose), in a full building. My plan was shot down by my squadron because "we need to work Saturday". If they were really concerned with getting the actual work done, they would have let my guys work during the week. It was all the crap we did for "show" that drove me nuts up there.

Tak
05-09-2013, 01:36 PM
Both wings were somewhat difficult, but for different reasons.

The MW was the more "political" of the two. They did a lot more "for show" type nonsense. For example, as NCOIC of a shop that was strictly admin/paperwork, I devised a plan for "inspection prep" that had my guys coming in early and working late during the week, so that we wouldn't need to come in on Saturday. Basically, under my plan, my guys would get 10-12 extra hours of work in during the week, after-hours, when the building was minimally manned and quiet. If we came in on Saturday, we'd work a 8-9 hour shift (probably less if the CC came around in the afternoon to cut people loose), in a full building. My plan was shot down by my squadron because "we need to work Saturday". If they were really concerned with getting the actual work done, they would have let my guys work during the week. It was all the crap we did for "show" that drove me nuts up there.

When in 5cs, the 91 called because on the commanders access
Channel they said the opening slide had the 5th patch bigger
Than the 91st patch.
In the 91, they did a ton of crap under the guise of attaining
Perfection, but in reality was wasteful.

KellyinAvon
05-09-2013, 01:38 PM
I've been prescribed both. Both are useless and have no effect...

I've even been on a morphine pump and it had no mental effect on me.

The DEA and FDA would disagree with your assessment. There are thousands of people addicted to these meds, they ain't no joke.

Kicker47
05-09-2013, 01:49 PM
When in 5cs, the 91 called because on the commanders access
Channel they said the opening slide had the 5th patch bigger
Than the 91st patch.
In the 91, they did a ton of crap under the guise of attaining
Perfection, but in reality was wasteful.

Typical. I was issued a thermos what I PCA'd from the BW to the MW.
I was like "Why are you issuing me a Thermos?"
They were like "I don't know...some Commander wanted his guys to have them, I guess, so now we have to issue them."
I was like "Do you realize that there are guys across base in the BW that can't get new gloves or boots or raingear becuase there's no money, and you're about to issue me a freaking Thermos?"
Dude was like "Hmmm...sucks to be them."

Tak
05-09-2013, 01:58 PM
Other missile bases are only missile bases,
Minot sucks cuz we have two daddies and not
Two Christmases being a dual missile and bomber wing.
When something on base is broke, 5.ces cares
About 5 bw cc, not 91 mw cc concerns in field.

Actually we got two daddies and no Christmas.

Kicker47
05-09-2013, 02:34 PM
True. Worked with CE while in the MW. Had to track their workorders with no way to track their workorders. Typical Minotism. The friggin' gate names are what finally sent me over the edge. If it's the Main Gate, call it the damned Main Gate. If it's the Minot Gate, call it the damned Minot Gate. Make up your mind and stick with it. Ten years since they started that crap, they're still sending out e-mails that say "The Minot (Main) Gate will be closed...The Magic City (South) Gate will be open."

Tak
05-09-2013, 02:40 PM
True. Worked with CE while in the MW. Had to track their workorders with no way to track their workorders. Typical Minotism. The friggin' gate names are what finally sent me over the edge. If it's the Main Gate, call it the damned Main Gate. If it's the Minot Gate, call it the damned Minot Gate. Make up your mind and stick with it. Ten years since they started that crap, they're still sending out e-mails that say "The Minot (Main) Gate will be closed...The Magic City (South) Gate will be open."

Ha, remember, we were about the last in AF to get the blue style
Base entry signs. Also just within last 5 years they finally
Built New housing, bx, shoppette, dorms, New gym over old gym,
after like 40+ years.
Finally got real food in food court. Bricked over shitty buildings on base.
No indoor activities on base or town. No real mwr trips.
Wow, such a shit base with horrible weather and crazy inspections
With blizzards, floods, tornados, hail, wind, etc.
Front gate says only best come north, one cc added and best are
Better when they go forth, then next cc removed it. Gate entry a single
Old missile on base which is headed by bomber wing.
Don't get me started.

It's not a friendly dual base marriage, its dysfunctional as hell.
No joke, I had an airman deal drugs to get outta here.

Kicker47
05-09-2013, 02:51 PM
Ha, remember, we were about the last in AF to get the blue style
Base entry signs. Also just within last 5 years they finally
Built New housing, bx, shoppette, dorms, after like 40+ years.
Finally got real food in food court. Bricked over shitty buildings on base.
No indoor activities on base or town. No real mwr trips.
Wow, such a shit base with horrible weather and crazy inspections
With blizzards, floods, tornados, hail, wind, etc.
Front gate says only best come north, one cc added and best are
Better when they go forth, then next cc removed it. Gate entry a single
Old missile on base which is headed by bomber wing.
Don't get me started.

"Only the Be..."

I went on one MWR trip while there. They had a "party bus" from the base to the Beavers hockey game. I figured it would be a bus full of guys and girls drinking and having fun. Nope. It was me, a couple with two kids, and a 18 year old AB that "just wanted to go somewhere other than the dorms". It was terrible.

Tak
05-09-2013, 02:53 PM
"Only the Be..."

I went on one MWR trip while there. They had a "party bus" from the base to the Beavers hockey game. I figured it would be a bus full of guys and girls drinking and having fun. Nope. It was me, a couple with two kids, and a 18 year old AB that "just wanted to go somewhere other than the dorms". It was terrible.

In Nov I called about mall of America trip (exciting shopping trip), cancelled cuz no one signed up.

In fairness, while at equally shifty but better weather holloman AFB, NM,
We took a mwr trip to el Paso tx shopping mall.

SomeRandomGuy
05-09-2013, 03:06 PM
No real mwr trips.
Wow, such a shit base with horrible weather
With blizzards, floods, tornados, hail, wind, etc.

You could have MWR ski trips, Or MWR canoe trips through town, or MWR Holy SHIT! my roof just blew away trips. You guys really need to learn to be more positive up there.

Tak
05-09-2013, 03:15 PM
You could have MWR ski trips, Or MWR canoe trips through town, or MWR Holy SHIT! my roof just blew away trips. You guys really need to learn to be more positive up there.

F#$% You!
How's that...

Tak
05-09-2013, 03:17 PM
We may have worse weather then Alaska, just as remote, yet Alaska
Is oconus, so sweet pay and residents can get paid.
Minot gets jack.shit, no military discount at movies even.

RobotChicken
05-09-2013, 03:19 PM
:popcorn But the snow is free!! :smow

Sunshine52
05-09-2013, 03:19 PM
Ha, remember, we were about the last in AF to get the blue style
Base entry signs. Also just within last 5 years they finally
Built New housing, bx, shoppette, dorms, New gym over old gym,
after like 40+ years.
Finally got real food in food court. Bricked over shitty buildings on base.
No indoor activities on base or town. No real mwr trips.
Wow, such a shit base with horrible weather and crazy inspections
With blizzards, floods, tornados, hail, wind, etc.
Front gate says only best come north, one cc added and best are
Better when they go forth, then next cc removed it. Gate entry a single
Old missile on base which is headed by bomber wing.
Don't get me started.

It's not a friendly dual base marriage, its dysfunctional as hell.
No joke, I had an airman deal drugs to get outta here.

And may I add; Minot is where careers go to die

Tak
05-09-2013, 03:20 PM
:popcorn But the snow is free!! :smow

No they charge for that shit too...

Sunshine52
05-09-2013, 03:24 PM
Ha, remember, we were about the last in AF to get the blue style
Base entry signs. Also just within last 5 years they finally
Built New housing, bx, shoppette, dorms, New gym over old gym,
after like 40+ years.
Finally got real food in food court. Bricked over shitty buildings on base.
No indoor activities on base or town. No real mwr trips.
Wow, such a shit base with horrible weather and crazy inspections
With blizzards, floods, tornados, hail, wind, etc.
Front gate says only best come north, one cc added and best are
Better when they go forth, then next cc removed it. Gate entry a single
Old missile on base which is headed by bomber wing.
Don't get me started.

It's not a friendly dual base marriage, its dysfunctional as hell.
No joke, I had an airman deal drugs to get outta here.

And may I add; Minot is where careers go to die

CSARmedic
05-09-2013, 04:34 PM
It started when the USSR folded and a true mission disappeared. Then the coup de gras was when SAC was disbanded and ACC took over and marginalized most of the troops who are part of our nuclear triad unlike the Navy with the TACAMO's and Ohio Class subs who stay on high state of readiness. Then the environment of the USAF changed of being good at your job was discounted and fluff, waist size, and useless degrees took over. One thing I noticed about today's Airmen is that most of them are not proud to be in the unit they are in besides the Spec ops community or fighter pilots. Don't get me wrong being in SAC was not easy, you followed checklists to the letter, ORI's, long hours, and arctic conditions but when we in SAC looked at the rest of the Air Force we had a inner pride enduring the hardships of it especially my own experiences being on alert and keeping my tanker or buff ready to go. You got to know what it was all about when looked into the bomb bay and saw items that could wipe out life on earth. Am I wrong?

No. I think you hit the nail on the head. In my 32 years (I'm retiring next month) I've never seen such a leadership mess that we see today. It seems that the Air Force Pentagon "leaders" couldn't make a good decision if their life depended on it.
It also looks like that the Fighter Mafia wasn't disbanded after all but are alive and well and making policy decisions about nuclear missiles. I think the the "Corporate Air Force" mentality has finally caught up with itself. You can't run a military like a company and it's showing in the routinely poor decision-making which we are witnessing.
I honestly don't think that things will start to correct themselves until the current generation of "leaders" retires or resigns. The shortsightedness is too ingrained in the culture at this point.

Tak
05-09-2013, 05:16 PM
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123347812

True story. I went to hospital for appendicitis, next morning got out and straight
To work, had Lt gen kehler coming in for VTC. It's voice activated switching,
So everyone is muted except who speaks. So these locations come up and on
Screen would show malmstrom afb, etc etc. Well when he spoke other sites had
Smiles on face, didn't know why. He left, no words or coins, since we setup last
Minute vtc for him and it was the 5 bs vtc room. Anyways. His exec called to bitch
Me out for setting the gen up to look bad. What happened was when we spoke our screen name was
Truncated, so instead of minot afb studio on screen, under his face was minot afb stud.
I told exec it was honest mistake, he stayed pissed. I later thought it was pretty funny.
He later got fourth star, went to afspc and now stratcom.

Tak
05-09-2013, 05:46 PM
From Nov 2012
http://www.kmot.com/News_Stories.asp?news=60262

Tak
05-09-2013, 05:47 PM
Apr 2013...
http://www.minot.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123342997

RobotChicken
05-09-2013, 05:51 PM
:faint I think those 'buffs' are rotten away from lack of funds for repair....:closed_2

Tak
05-09-2013, 05:53 PM
Mar 2013...check #11
http://www.minot.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123342067

Tak
05-09-2013, 06:00 PM
does not sound fun
http://www.militarytimes.com/article/20130509/NEWS/305090013/General-orders-extra-review-nuke-crew-failings

Badger
05-09-2013, 07:42 PM
You can tell FNC's Shepard Smith has no idea what he's talking about.

Tak
05-09-2013, 07:45 PM
Fox screwed up report, saying vice commander of base.
Wrong, it was vice OG cc, big difference, plus 91 MW is
not host unit.

Funny, people on ground say Rot, but leaders say not so...

unrelated we were missile wing, then space wing, then missile wing again,
then went from AFSPC to new AFGSC.

Also there's flight suit contention, space and missile badge issues,
Along with them years ago taken crews from 24hr to.72hr tours
And changing back to 24hr tours for crews.

Tak
05-09-2013, 07:52 PM
You can tell FNC's Shepard Smith has no idea what he's talking about.

Yep, screwed it all up...
Then kehler says all good.
Years ago he had article
Saying it is good to fail
Inspections to improve.

"Kehler: NSI failures part of solution"
By Michael Hoffman Staff writer

VFFTSGT
05-09-2013, 08:06 PM
You can tell FNC's Shepard Smith has no idea what he's talking about.

He doesn't know anything...he just reads what his producers put on the teleprompter.

Tak
05-09-2013, 08:10 PM
True, he's a talking head, but he appeared not to even grasp that this was about nuclear missile crews. He made some vague joke about a "nuclear facility" and Homer Simpson.

He said they had launched nukes.

Badger
05-09-2013, 08:12 PM
True, he's a talking head, but he appeared not to even grasp that this was about nuclear missile crews. He made some vague joke about a "nuclear facility" and Homer Simpson.

Tak
05-09-2013, 08:15 PM
True, he's a talking head, but he appeared not to even grasp that this was about nuclear missile crews. He made some vague joke about a "nuclear facility" and Homer Simpson.

He said they had launched nukes.

Measure Man
05-09-2013, 08:20 PM
True, he's a talking head, but he appeared not to even grasp that this was about nuclear missile crews. He made some vague joke about a "nuclear facility" and Homer Simpson.

I think he's half drunk most of the time he does the show...he's a hoot, my favorite newsman.

Tak
05-09-2013, 08:37 PM
I think he's half drunk most of the time he does the show...he's a hoot, my favorite newsman.

He wears f@ckin makeup.

Measure Man
05-09-2013, 10:20 PM
He wears f@ckin makeup.

So did Ronald Reagan

Tak
05-10-2013, 01:47 PM
No problem here...they have plenty extra crews
http://www.minotdailynews.com/page/content.detail/id/575404/Minot-missile-officers-manning-the-LCCs.html?nav=5010

BISSBOSS
05-10-2013, 04:44 PM
No. I think you hit the nail on the head. In my 32 years (I'm retiring next month) I've never seen such a leadership mess that we see today. It seems that the Air Force Pentagon "leaders" couldn't make a good decision if their life depended on it.
It also looks like that the Fighter Mafia wasn't disbanded after all but are alive and well and making policy decisions about nuclear missiles. I think the the "Corporate Air Force" mentality has finally caught up with itself. You can't run a military like a company and it's showing in the routinely poor decision-making which we are witnessing.
I honestly don't think that things will start to correct themselves until the current generation of "leaders" retires or resigns. The shortsightedness is too ingrained in the culture at this point.

Agreed! But I also think that the AF will have a larger problem when those leaders you mentioned above do retire. Once they are gone - Those who replace them will not have learned the critical leadership skills needed to steer the USAF through the storm it is in now!

These guys are true products of an incestuous relationship that only produces copies of itself each a bit more watered down and less effective than the generation before it. I really think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of the AF. Much as I hate to say that, it does seem that after a few more of these types of publicly embarrassing incidences; it'll be easier to scrap the whole thing and start all over again.

Just my two cents...

-BB-

BISSBOSS
05-10-2013, 06:04 PM
Although it comes from an angle of the sexual assaults - This article is a pretty good read on the current climate in the USAF...


My favorite quote - "Bases have morphed from “work hard/play hard” bastions of combat excellence and deep camaraderie to glorified summer camps, with layer upon layer of rules emplaced to prevent campers from doing harm to one another."

http://www.jqpublic-blog.com/?p=383

Have a look!

-BB-

Tak
05-10-2013, 07:13 PM
Although it comes from an angle of the sexual assaults - This article is a pretty good read on the current climate in the USAF...


My favorite quote - "Bases have morphed from “work hard/play hard” bastions of combat excellence and deep camaraderie to glorified summer camps, with layer upon layer of rules emplaced to prevent campers from doing harm to one another."

http://www.jqpublic-blog.com/?p=383

Have a look!

-BB-

My last year's before retirement were all work hard/work harder...haven't seen play in many, many years.

SomeRandomGuy
05-10-2013, 07:16 PM
My last year's before retirement were all work hard/work harder...hsvent seen play in many, many years.

Sort of like marriage. In the beginning it is all fun and games. During the middle you stick around because it is not all that bad and you still get to play every now and then. After about 15 years you know that no one else will take you but you have already invested to much. So you just try to last long enough to take the bitch for alimony.

tiredretiredE7
05-11-2013, 02:38 PM
No. I think you hit the nail on the head. In my 32 years (I'm retiring next month) I've never seen such a leadership mess that we see today. It seems that the Air Force Pentagon "leaders" couldn't make a good decision if their life depended on it.
It also looks like that the Fighter Mafia wasn't disbanded after all but are alive and well and making policy decisions about nuclear missiles. I think the the "Corporate Air Force" mentality has finally caught up with itself. You can't run a military like a company and it's showing in the routinely poor decision-making which we are witnessing.
I honestly don't think that things will start to correct themselves until the current generation of "leaders" retires or resigns. The shortsightedness is too ingrained in the culture at this point.

I agree 100% but the infection is not just at the top of the AF, it has spread throughout the entire rank structure. Leadership is a continuous cycle which usually stays the course of those before them so I would not look for a change anytime soon.

Tak
05-11-2013, 09:32 PM
I heard it was a missile chef who spilled beans.

Tak
05-11-2013, 09:43 PM
For people speculating, there was a lack of professionalism and I saw it my
4 1/2 years working in two missile squadrons. Believe it or not, I was told
By a Lt col, I was too military. It's like this, some jobs create situations.
I worked a special duty at Peterson, we worked for generals, period, ran their conference
Rooms for 3 1/2 years, we never did anything for base level. Felt like a
Civilian job. Point is, these people spent four years coming to base for brief
And go to field, drive with young airmen,nco, etc, everyone bitchin. Ccs of
Sq and DO way in weeds,on everything in sq. Work weekends, holidays, etc.
Grow to hate job, base, everything, office, leaders...you just want to be left alone
To do job. Manning bad, off days dwindle, home life worsens, love of af fades,
No processional or experience, just babysit a capsule and cops.
Officer leaders can't use tools like days off like a Mon-Fri job.
Top it off, goal is to maintain readiness rate...no kills or missile shooting...
What's to motivate an endless Duldrum quasi deployment life in the worst
Af base with no incentives, where bodies wait all winter to be buried in summer,
Because ground to hard to dig. Minot, worst place in America.

Tak
05-12-2013, 03:04 PM
Name changes are telling...strategic missile wing, missile wing. Space wing, missile wing again,
Probably other ones over years...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRa3LvH6BM4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

How fun does this look

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7Pmy5Yzy1g&feature=youtube_gdata_player