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View Full Version : Enlisted military ranks 3 in “5 Worst Jobs in America”



MajesticThunder
04-28-2013, 04:59 PM
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/04/28/the-5-worst-jobs-in-america.aspx#commentsBoxAnchor


Is this gloomy assessment accurate as net pay dwindles, entitlements depreciate, and compensatory benefits wane yet uncompromising duty expectations persist?

:usa2 :lever

Tak
04-28-2013, 05:03 PM
Yes, they pay us shit for current responsibilities, many same jobs officers used to do.

imported_Joker76
04-28-2013, 05:37 PM
Yes, they pay us shit for current responsibilities, many same jobs officers used to do.

Who is this "us" you refer too? You are retired and now a civilian. Go hold up the line at the commissary or walk around the BX wearing a Desert Storm hat.

Also, to make up for the insult, here is a animated picture of Selma Hayek

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n131/Nicnever/00%20S/Salma%20Hayek/SalmaHayek-DusktillDawn015.gif

ok two, i couldn't help myself

http://cl.jroo.me/z3/j/h/e/e/a.baa-Salma-Hayek-Serendipity-Dogm.gif

Capt Alfredo
04-28-2013, 05:54 PM
That looks like an "after" and "before" ad for a good plastic surgeon. Not that I'm complaining.

imnohero
04-28-2013, 05:59 PM
I'd agree that 1st term military enlisted is probably among the worst. At least based on the seeming criteria of the article (lots of physical work and risk, low pay, poor job future).

The top three are actuary, biomedical engineer, and software engineer. All of which require lots of brainpower, long long hours, and corporate politics. Hardly "easy". And the median pays are higher, but the pay ranges are much much wider. These days software engineer entry level is help-desk nerd for near min. wage and Bill Gates $90 billion a year kind brings up the average. If you smell what I'm cookin'.

Those dream jobs of good pay, low stress, and secure future? You got a better chance of winning the lottery.

VFFTSGT
04-28-2013, 06:25 PM
I'd agree that 1st term military enlisted is probably among the worst. At least based on the seeming criteria of the article (lots of physical work and risk, low pay, poor job future).

The top three are actuary, biomedical engineer, and software engineer. All of which require lots of brainpower, long long hours, and corporate politics. Hardly "easy". And the median pays are higher, but the pay ranges are much much wider. These days software engineer entry level is help-desk nerd for near min. wage and Bill Gates $90 billion a year kind brings up the average. If you smell what I'm cookin'.

Those dream jobs of good pay, low stress, and secure future? You got a better chance of winning the lottery.

What other job right out of high school gives you a decent pay check, food, roof, clothes, full healthcare, education, 30 days of vacation per year, etc.? Military pays plenty...just like the government, the people spend too much (they take on a car payment, XBOX, latest smartphone, etc) and think they deserve 80 grand right of high school.

Tak
04-28-2013, 06:26 PM
What other job right out of high school gives you a decent pay check, food, roof, clothes, full healthcare, education, 30 days of vacation per year, etc.? Military pays plenty...just like the government, the people spend too much (they take on a car payment, XBOX, latest smartphone, etc) and think they deserve 80 grand right of high school.

Sellout...

Tak
04-28-2013, 06:29 PM
Who is this "us" you refer too? You are retired and now a civilian. Go hold up the line at the commissary or walk around the BX wearing a Desert Storm hat.

Also, to make up for the insult, here is a animated picture of Selma Hayek

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n131/Nicnever/00%20S/Salma%20Hayek/SalmaHayek-DusktillDawn015.gif

ok two, i couldn't help myself

http://cl.jroo.me/z3/j/h/e/e/a.baa-Salma-Hayek-Serendipity-Dogm.gif

Thanks. Nice photos. Yes, to quantify my statement, I was referring to last year,
The af may have fixed manning and additional duties by now. No desert hat...

VFFTSGT
04-28-2013, 06:29 PM
Sellout...

How am I a sellout? Because I realize how good people do have it? And no amount of money will truly make a person happier?

Tak
04-28-2013, 06:31 PM
That looks like an "after" and "before" ad for a good plastic surgeon. Not that I'm complaining.

Bs, she has good genes, its incidental she's married to a billionaire.

MACHINE666
04-28-2013, 08:30 PM
I have to agree to a certain extent; if you're enlisted, then it can definitely be a shitty gig. Lemme explain:

People constantly in your shit. If it's not your immediate supervisor bitching at you on a routine basis, only because the guy is an asshole who loves to power trip, then it's some douche-bag Shirt, Senior NCO, or officer who is trying to make your day lousy. The military is the only organization that I can think of, which encourages its people to be total assholes to people who are junior ranking, and reinforces that method of thinking. Someone doesn't like what you're doing? Or feels threatened by the fact you outshine them? Give them an LOC or an LOR. Doesn't matter if the person who is giving it is a total fuck-wit whose highest station in life will be a CCAF graduate, the fact that they have the higher rank makes them automatically right, and you being the junior ranking person, you're automatically wrong. Even if your rebuttal is as detailed as a Master's Degree Program thesis, it's a done deal, story's over. It goes in your PIF, and when it comes time for awards and decorations, you lose out.

The military (Air Force specifically) reinforces a junior high school mentality. While it's watered down at larger bases like Andrews, Osan, or Ramstein, go to some rinky-dink assignment like Kunsan, or a GSU like Geilenkirchen, and you're back in 7th grade. Boys have their groups, girls have their groups, and you're a complete spazz if you don't fit into either. Rumors spread like wildfire, and if some asshole Shirt or Superintendent catches wind of it, you're down in their office having to explain these allegations. Doesn't do any good most the time anyways, because they've already drafted up an LOC or an LOR in advance, and just want to humor you into thinking they're giving you a fair chance. A fucking popularity contest at its worst.

Finally, you're treated like a child ad nauseum, which pretty much reflects upon my two previous paragraphs. Everything from Wingman briefings to reflective belt policies in the AOR, just to leave your tent at night to take a dump in the shitter 10 feet away, you are treated with an infinite infantile mentality by our so-called "leadership". Never mind the fact that the men and women who serve have proven themselves to be responsible in ways most civilians can't or won't measure up to, whatever colonel or general is writing local policy is getting his jollies by making it way more restrictive and suffocating than it needs to be.

So yes, you do get a nice pay check, some hella nice bennies if you're rocking the chevrons, but look at the trade-off. When I retired, I felt as if I had cheated myself in the grand scheme of things; robbed Peter to pay Paul for my little Blue Mafia ID card. My dignity and self-respect in exchange for a legacy nobody gives a damn about.

See you in the nearest AAFES Food Court.

imnohero
04-28-2013, 08:51 PM
What other job right out of high school gives you a decent pay check, food, roof, clothes, full healthcare, education, 30 days of vacation per year, etc.? Military pays plenty...just like the government, the people spend too much (they take on a car payment, XBOX, latest smartphone, etc) and think they deserve 80 grand right of high school.

Note that I qualified my answer with "by the criteria of the survey"...which doesn't account for any of those things.

Personally, I think that the military is a good choice for those leaving high school.

VFFTSGT
04-28-2013, 09:01 PM
Note that I qualified my answer with "by the criteria of the survey"...which doesn't account for any of those things.

Personally, I think that the military is a good choice for those leaving high school.

You clearly stated low pay in your post. Everything I posted is a form of pay/compensation.

OtisRNeedleman
04-28-2013, 09:27 PM
How am I a sellout? Because I realize how good people do have it? And no amount of money will truly make a person happier?

Money may not truly make a person happier, but it can certainly lift loads off their shoulders and burdens from their hearts. A lack or shortage of money makes all problems worse.

imnohero
04-28-2013, 09:53 PM
You clearly stated low pay in your post. Everything I posted is a form of pay/compensation.

Take it up with the survey people. You are right, but that isn't going to change how they did it. Or are you just looking to have an argument?

Drackore
04-29-2013, 06:10 AM
THIS! THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!!!!!

Been screaming that for YEARS!

It still is one of the worst jobs, I agree. If I knew then what I know now, I never would have enlisted (at least with the AF). I can't retire soon enough. Yes, the perks are great (so long as politics don't destroy them), but this current mentality we have with "leadership" (or lack thereof) and lack of sense has gotten way out of control, and everyone just shrugs their shoulders and says "That's the norm".


What other job right out of high school gives you a decent pay check, food, roof, clothes, full healthcare, education, 30 days of vacation per year, etc.? Military pays plenty...just like the government, the people spend too much (they take on a car payment, XBOX, latest smartphone, etc) and think they deserve 80 grand right of high school.

VFFTSGT
04-29-2013, 06:57 AM
Take it up with the survey people. You are right, but that isn't going to change how they did it. Or are you just looking to have an argument?

I thought you were trying to say we have low pay...


THIS! THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!!!!!

Been screaming that for YEARS!

It still is one of the worst jobs, I agree. If I knew then what I know now, I never would have enlisted (at least with the AF). I can't retire soon enough. Yes, the perks are great (so long as politics don't destroy them), but this current mentality we have with "leadership" (or lack thereof) and lack of sense has gotten way out of control, and everyone just shrugs their shoulders and says "That's the norm".

Thank you and ditto...except I'm not hanging out until retirement.

FLAPS
04-29-2013, 09:24 AM
I have to agree to a certain extent; if you're enlisted, then it can definitely be a shitty gig. Lemme explain:

People constantly in your shit. If it's not your immediate supervisor bitching at you on a routine basis, only because the guy is an asshole who loves to power trip, then it's some douche-bag Shirt, Senior NCO, or officer who is trying to make your day lousy. The military is the only organization that I can think of, which encourages its people to be total assholes to people who are junior ranking, and reinforces that method of thinking. Someone doesn't like what you're doing? Or feels threatened by the fact you outshine them? Give them an LOC or an LOR. Doesn't matter if the person who is giving it is a total fuck-wit whose highest station in life will be a CCAF graduate, the fact that they have the higher rank makes them automatically right, and you being the junior ranking person, you're automatically wrong. Even if your rebuttal is as detailed as a Master's Degree Program thesis, it's a done deal, story's over. It goes in your PIF, and when it comes time for awards and decorations, you lose out.

The military (Air Force specifically) reinforces a junior high school mentality. While it's watered down at larger bases like Andrews, Osan, or Ramstein, go to some rinky-dink assignment like Kunsan, or a GSU like Geilenkirchen, and you're back in 7th grade. Boys have their groups, girls have their groups, and you're a complete spazz if you don't fit into either. Rumors spread like wildfire, and if some asshole Shirt or Superintendent catches wind of it, you're down in their office having to explain these allegations. Doesn't do any good most the time anyways, because they've already drafted up an LOC or an LOR in advance, and just want to humor you into thinking they're giving you a fair chance. A fucking popularity contest at its worst.

Finally, you're treated like a child ad nauseum, which pretty much reflects upon my two previous paragraphs. Everything from Wingman briefings to reflective belt policies in the AOR, just to leave your tent at night to take a dump in the shitter 10 feet away, you are treated with an infinite infantile mentality by our so-called "leadership". Never mind the fact that the men and women who serve have proven themselves to be responsible in ways most civilians can't or won't measure up to, whatever colonel or general is writing local policy is getting his jollies by making it way more restrictive and suffocating than it needs to be.

So yes, you do get a nice pay check, some hella nice bennies if you're rocking the chevrons, but look at the trade-off. When I retired, I felt as if I had cheated myself in the grand scheme of things; robbed Peter to pay Paul for my little Blue Mafia ID card. My dignity and self-respect in exchange for a legacy nobody gives a damn about.

See you in the nearest AAFES Food Court.

People always get a laugh when I tell them how I would never make it two days as an Airman in today's AF. I can think of at least 10 actions per week as an Airman "back in the day" that would have earned me LOCs/LORs as an Airman today. It's quite shocking how "perfect" you are expected to be/act today. I've tried over the years in various positions to ease the pain, where I could.

That said, I joined right out of HS as a slick sleeve and don't regret a thing. The AF has opened up more doors/opportunities for me than I can count.

Rusty Jones
04-29-2013, 10:56 AM
Those dream jobs of good pay, low stress, and secure future? You got a better chance of winning the lottery.

Taxi driver. I'm a GS civilian right now, but I'm a taxi driver part-time. The ONLY thing that sucks about being a taxi driver is that there are no benefits. Other than that, lease a taxi for a 12 shift - WHENEVER you want, based on availability - and you simply pay for your own gas and the lease. You keep the rest. I normally clear about $250 per 12 hour shift.

Some of your customers can be a drag, but they're out of your car in a few minutes anyway. You basically get paid to drive the city. If I had actually stayed in the military and retired, I WOULD drive taxis full-time, since my benefits would already be taken care of.

Rusty Jones
04-29-2013, 11:29 AM
I have to agree to a certain extent; if you're enlisted, then it can definitely be a shitty gig. Lemme explain:

People constantly in your shit. If it's not your immediate supervisor bitching at you on a routine basis, only because the guy is an asshole who loves to power trip, then it's some douche-bag Shirt, Senior NCO, or officer who is trying to make your day lousy. The military is the only organization that I can think of, which encourages its people to be total assholes to people who are junior ranking, and reinforces that method of thinking. Someone doesn't like what you're doing? Or feels threatened by the fact you outshine them? Give them an LOC or an LOR. Doesn't matter if the person who is giving it is a total fuck-wit whose highest station in life will be a CCAF graduate, the fact that they have the higher rank makes them automatically right, and you being the junior ranking person, you're automatically wrong. Even if your rebuttal is as detailed as a Master's Degree Program thesis, it's a done deal, story's over. It goes in your PIF, and when it comes time for awards and decorations, you lose out.

The military (Air Force specifically) reinforces a junior high school mentality. While it's watered down at larger bases like Andrews, Osan, or Ramstein, go to some rinky-dink assignment like Kunsan, or a GSU like Geilenkirchen, and you're back in 7th grade. Boys have their groups, girls have their groups, and you're a complete spazz if you don't fit into either. Rumors spread like wildfire, and if some asshole Shirt or Superintendent catches wind of it, you're down in their office having to explain these allegations. Doesn't do any good most the time anyways, because they've already drafted up an LOC or an LOR in advance, and just want to humor you into thinking they're giving you a fair chance. A fucking popularity contest at its worst.

Finally, you're treated like a child ad nauseum, which pretty much reflects upon my two previous paragraphs. Everything from Wingman briefings to reflective belt policies in the AOR, just to leave your tent at night to take a dump in the shitter 10 feet away, you are treated with an infinite infantile mentality by our so-called "leadership". Never mind the fact that the men and women who serve have proven themselves to be responsible in ways most civilians can't or won't measure up to, whatever colonel or general is writing local policy is getting his jollies by making it way more restrictive and suffocating than it needs to be.

So yes, you do get a nice pay check, some hella nice bennies if you're rocking the chevrons, but look at the trade-off. When I retired, I felt as if I had cheated myself in the grand scheme of things; robbed Peter to pay Paul for my little Blue Mafia ID card. My dignity and self-respect in exchange for a legacy nobody gives a damn about.

See you in the nearest AAFES Food Court.

I agree with you 100%.

Within the first few months at my first duty station, I was ready to smoke a doobie so I could get my OTH and go home. The way that I was being treated at work, if I'm going to be completely honest with myself, is why I got married far sooner than I was ready to. I wanted to have something to come home to, after dealing with what I had to deal with at work.

A couple of months into our marriage, I actually began admitting this to her... but, she didn't want to hear it, and our marriage continued for another three years.

And the pay IS good. I'm a GS-9 Step 1, and I get paid less than an E4; even though the equivalency chart suggests that my responsibilities are equal to that of a 2LT/LTJG (I DO know a GS-9 who supervises an E7 and an E8).

If there is one area in which military personnel will NEVER have a legitimate gripe, it's their pay. The argument of "I fight for my country, so I deserve to be a multimillionaire" doesn't fly with me.

Tak
04-29-2013, 02:23 PM
How am I a sellout? Because I realize how good people do have it? And no amount of money will truly make a person happier?

Yes.......

20+Years
04-29-2013, 02:30 PM
Seconded. Motion to adjourn?

KellyinAvon
04-29-2013, 04:05 PM
I have to agree to a certain extent; if you're enlisted, then it can definitely be a shitty gig. Lemme explain:

People constantly in your shit. If it's not your immediate supervisor bitching at you on a routine basis, only because the guy is an asshole who loves to power trip, then it's some douche-bag Shirt, Senior NCO, or officer who is trying to make your day lousy. The military is the only organization that I can think of, which encourages its people to be total assholes to people who are junior ranking, and reinforces that method of thinking. Someone doesn't like what you're doing? Or feels threatened by the fact you outshine them? Give them an LOC or an LOR. Doesn't matter if the person who is giving it is a total fuck-wit whose highest station in life will be a CCAF graduate, the fact that they have the higher rank makes them automatically right, and you being the junior ranking person, you're automatically wrong. Even if your rebuttal is as detailed as a Master's Degree Program thesis, it's a done deal, story's over. It goes in your PIF, and when it comes time for awards and decorations, you lose out.

The military (Air Force specifically) reinforces a junior high school mentality. While it's watered down at larger bases like Andrews, Osan, or Ramstein, go to some rinky-dink assignment like Kunsan, or a GSU like Geilenkirchen, and you're back in 7th grade. Boys have their groups, girls have their groups, and you're a complete spazz if you don't fit into either. Rumors spread like wildfire, and if some asshole Shirt or Superintendent catches wind of it, you're down in their office having to explain these allegations. Doesn't do any good most the time anyways, because they've already drafted up an LOC or an LOR in advance, and just want to humor you into thinking they're giving you a fair chance. A fucking popularity contest at its worst.

Finally, you're treated like a child ad nauseum, which pretty much reflects upon my two previous paragraphs. Everything from Wingman briefings to reflective belt policies in the AOR, just to leave your tent at night to take a dump in the shitter 10 feet away, you are treated with an infinite infantile mentality by our so-called "leadership". Never mind the fact that the men and women who serve have proven themselves to be responsible in ways most civilians can't or won't measure up to, whatever colonel or general is writing local policy is getting his jollies by making it way more restrictive and suffocating than it needs to be.

So yes, you do get a nice pay check, some hella nice bennies if you're rocking the chevrons, but look at the trade-off. When I retired, I felt as if I had cheated myself in the grand scheme of things; robbed Peter to pay Paul for my little Blue Mafia ID card. My dignity and self-respect in exchange for a legacy nobody gives a damn about.

See you in the nearest AAFES Food Court.

Excellent post, Machine. You did leave out one important thing: the contant stress that goes with being vigilant against someone taking a dump in your coffee pot:biggrin

OtisRNeedleman
04-29-2013, 05:39 PM
People always get a laugh when I tell them how I would never make it two days as an Airman in today's AF. I can think of at least 10 actions per week as an Airman "back in the day" that would have earned me LOCs/LORs as an Airman today. It's quite shocking how "perfect" you are expected to be/act today. I've tried over the years in various positions to ease the pain, where I could.

That said, I joined right out of HS as a slick sleeve and don't regret a thing. The AF has opened up more doors/opportunities for me than I can count.

I'll piggyback on this. I joined fresh out of junior college as a slick-sleeve, too. I can also think of a whole bunch of things I did back then for which I would have gotten LOCs/LORs now. As it was, I didn't re-enlist because I simply didn't like being an enlisted person. Got out, went back to school, didn't see anything in the civilian world that looked to be as interesting and fun as being a SIGINT officer. So I got into ROTC, became a SIGINT officer back in my old unit, and off I went. And I, too, am grateful for the opportunites the AF has provided me.

I definitely agree it's far more difficult to be enlisted now than when I wore stripes, or even 15-20 years ago. The AF is much more demanding on their people now. From what little I see, today's AF doesn't seem like a real happy force. The spirit just isn't there. Yes, the mission still gets done but it just isn't the same. And, like FLAPS, whenever I could I worked to make things better.

VFFTSGT
04-29-2013, 06:15 PM
I have to agree to a certain extent; if you're enlisted, then it can definitely be a shitty gig. Lemme explain:

People constantly in your shit. If it's not your immediate supervisor bitching at you on a routine basis, only because the guy is an asshole who loves to power trip, then it's some douche-bag Shirt, Senior NCO, or officer who is trying to make your day lousy. The military is the only organization that I can think of, which encourages its people to be total assholes to people who are junior ranking, and reinforces that method of thinking. Someone doesn't like what you're doing? Or feels threatened by the fact you outshine them? Give them an LOC or an LOR. Doesn't matter if the person who is giving it is a total fuck-wit whose highest station in life will be a CCAF graduate, the fact that they have the higher rank makes them automatically right, and you being the junior ranking person, you're automatically wrong. Even if your rebuttal is as detailed as a Master's Degree Program thesis, it's a done deal, story's over. It goes in your PIF, and when it comes time for awards and decorations, you lose out.

The military (Air Force specifically) reinforces a junior high school mentality. While it's watered down at larger bases like Andrews, Osan, or Ramstein, go to some rinky-dink assignment like Kunsan, or a GSU like Geilenkirchen, and you're back in 7th grade. Boys have their groups, girls have their groups, and you're a complete spazz if you don't fit into either. Rumors spread like wildfire, and if some asshole Shirt or Superintendent catches wind of it, you're down in their office having to explain these allegations. Doesn't do any good most the time anyways, because they've already drafted up an LOC or an LOR in advance, and just want to humor you into thinking they're giving you a fair chance. A fucking popularity contest at its worst.

Finally, you're treated like a child ad nauseum, which pretty much reflects upon my two previous paragraphs. Everything from Wingman briefings to reflective belt policies in the AOR, just to leave your tent at night to take a dump in the shitter 10 feet away, you are treated with an infinite infantile mentality by our so-called "leadership". Never mind the fact that the men and women who serve have proven themselves to be responsible in ways most civilians can't or won't measure up to, whatever colonel or general is writing local policy is getting his jollies by making it way more restrictive and suffocating than it needs to be.

So yes, you do get a nice pay check, some hella nice bennies if you're rocking the chevrons, but look at the trade-off. When I retired, I felt as if I had cheated myself in the grand scheme of things; robbed Peter to pay Paul for my little Blue Mafia ID card. My dignity and self-respect in exchange for a legacy nobody gives a damn about.

See you in the nearest AAFES Food Court.

Well put.

I definitely won't miss any of this. :biggrin

imported_DannyJ
04-30-2013, 06:22 PM
I'll piggyback on this. I joined fresh out of junior college as a slick-sleeve, too. I can also think of a whole bunch of things I did back then for which I would have gotten LOCs/LORs now. As it was, I didn't re-enlist because I simply didn't like being an enlisted person. Got out, went back to school, didn't see anything in the civilian world that looked to be as interesting and fun as being a SIGINT officer. So I got into ROTC, became a SIGINT officer back in my old unit, and off I went. And I, too, am grateful for the opportunites the AF has provided me.

I definitely agree it's far more difficult to be enlisted now than when I wore stripes, or even 15-20 years ago. The AF is much more demanding on their people now. From what little I see, today's AF doesn't seem like a real happy force. The spirit just isn't there. Yes, the mission still gets done but it just isn't the same. And, like FLAPS, whenever I could I worked to make things better.

The root of all evils that have warped our AF into the thing it is today was the idea that MBAs (or the idea taught in those programs) would ever be a good fit in the military, period.

I, for one, believe we are more than fairly compensated for what we do. I will say that I believe that being an NCO is much shittier than being a Jr enlisted.

SomeRandomGuy
04-30-2013, 06:24 PM
I, for one, believe we are more than fairly compensated for what we do. I will say that I believe that being an NCO is much shittier than being a Jr enlisted.

In my opinion the best rank was SrA. You have been in long enough to know what you can/cannot get away with. People generally assume you know your shit so they leave you alone. You ussually do not have to supervise anyone. You get paid only slightly less than a SSgt. You start getting all the real perks of the military (move out of dorms, BAS, etc). I absolutely loved my time as a SrA. Looking back now I wish I had answered C on every question on the test. Instead I was an idiot and made SSgt first try.

imported_SergeantJack
04-30-2013, 06:34 PM
I think the pay and benefits are excellent. And I also agree with all the criticisms. But I disagree that it's the third worst job in America. That's just silly.

Rusty Jones
04-30-2013, 06:53 PM
I think the pay and benefits are excellent. And I also agree with all the criticisms. But I disagree that it's the third worst job in America. That's just silly.

Summer of 2005, I was a PO2 standing pier sentry in the middle of hot July day at NS Norfolk.

At the head of each pier, there are one or two port-a-potties. I saw the guy come by, driving the truck. He hops out of the truck and grabs the hose, pulls it into the port-a-potties and starts gittin' 'er done. He winds up the hose, hops into the truck, and moves onto the next.

And I was jealous of him.

He goes on his route, and no one fucks with him. I'd have traded places with him in a heartbeat.

Now if THAT doesn't put enlisted military in the top five, I don't know what does.

LogDog
04-30-2013, 07:23 PM
Summer of 2005, I was a PO2 standing pier sentry in the middle of hot July day at NS Norfolk.

At the head of each pier, there are one or two port-a-potties. I saw the guy come by, driving the truck. He hops out of the truck and grabs the hose, pulls it into the port-a-potties and starts gittin' 'er done. He winds up the hose, hops into the truck, and moves onto the next.

And I was jealous of him.

He goes on his route, and no one fucks with him. I'd have traded places with him in a heartbeat.

Now if THAT doesn't put enlisted military in the top five, I don't know what does.
You were just impressed that he had his shit together.

Mr. Squid
04-30-2013, 09:49 PM
You were just impressed that he had his shit together.http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/5967/rimshotdc9.gif

KellyinAvon
04-30-2013, 10:16 PM
The root of all evils that have warped our AF into the thing it is today was the idea that MBAs (or the idea taught in those programs) would ever be a good fit in the military, period.
I, for one, believe we are more than fairly compensated for what we do. I will say that I believe that being an NCO is much shittier than being a Jr enlisted.

Whaa-huh? DannyJ we're usually on the same track but I gotta say "whaa-huh" on this one. Please expand on this.

VCO
04-30-2013, 10:52 PM
In my opinion the best rank was SrA. You have been in long enough to know what you can/cannot get away with. People generally assume you know your shit so they leave you alone. You ussually do not have to supervise anyone. You get paid only slightly less than a SSgt. You start getting all the real perks of the military (move out of dorms, BAS, etc). I absolutely loved my time as a SrA. Looking back now I wish I had answered C on every question on the test. Instead I was an idiot and made SSgt first try.

I'm fond of MSgt. Most officers start to listen to you, and you know the system and have the freedom to start facilitating changes. The rank comes with responsibility, but it isn't hard.

Pullinteeth
05-01-2013, 02:21 AM
What other job right out of high school gives you a decent pay check, food, roof, clothes, full healthcare, education, 30 days of vacation per year, etc.? Military pays plenty...just like the government, the people spend too much (they take on a car payment, XBOX, latest smartphone, etc) and think they deserve 80 grand right of high school.

Amen....granted, the more you serve, the less your compensation is relative to the civilian sector but for someone just out of high school, they are paid the equivalent to a college grad....one that can find an job anyway... Not too shabby IMO...

imported_DannyJ
05-01-2013, 03:20 AM
Whaa-huh? DannyJ we're usually on the same track but I gotta say "whaa-huh" on this one. Please expand on this.

I was kinda coming back to what Otis said. The AF is not a happy place right now. You've seen office space I take it, pretty much what things are becoming, particularly where I work. I place a lot of blame on the whole idea of making O-3s get a masters for promotion to Maj and not really caring what it's in. Read some bios out there right now in the range of Maj-Col. They're really weird. You see LOTS of MBAs, some in actual shit that pertains to the job they do, and then a few in military related fields. I have a BBA and can easily identify the shit leadership is pulling right out of a business management text book. The whole movement to total process improvement, six sigma, AFSO 21, green-belts, blah blah blah, is straight up non-applicable in real terms to the military (they may appear to be, but I'll be damned if they do), but the shit is getting forced on us nonetheless and its taking it's toll. Morale is crap. Military bearing is crap. Total lack of backbone in middle leadership positions. I've got high hopes for the current CSAF, sincerely, but he's got a lot of bad MBA influenced culture to change before things bet any better.

I was lucky enough to have lunch with CCM Klukas the other day, and man, this guy, winner. He's winning more than Charlie Sheen. Seriously. Anyhoo, EPRs and how the CMSAF is taking time to look at it got brought up and it was vaguely insinuated that volunteerism and education are going to be pushed to back of the bus behind primary duties again. I don't think I can say how much that whole conversation and his outlook truly resonated with me. I believe there's a lot of thought going into how to fix the enlisted side of the house, my gut feeling tells me, however, not as much emphasis is being done with the officer corps, which in all honesty, is broke as f*ck. Probably more broke than the enlisted side. Education, straight up, needs to be down-played... a lot. Seriously. Problem really is, that education is being placed in the hands of people just smart enough to understand some of it, but just dumb enough not to understand where and when it is appropriate to apply it, and shit just isn't changing on that front. Too many people with dangerous educations in positions where they end up shitting all over the people beneath them despite good intentions.

IDK, I guess I just think the AF (and I suppose the rest of the military) would really benefit from Masters and Doctoral programs in military studies, particularly if they were awarded by the respective academies.

"MBAs? We don't need no stinkin' MBAs! This is the motha lovin' militury motha-licka!"

Tak
05-01-2013, 04:52 AM
I was kinda coming back to what Otis said. The AF is not a happy place right now. You've seen office space I take it, pretty much what things are becoming, particularly where I work. I place a lot of blame on the whole idea of making O-3s get a masters for promotion to Maj and not really caring what it's in. Read some bios out there right now in the range of Maj-Col. They're really weird. You see LOTS of MBAs, some in actual shit that pertains to the job they do, and then a few in military related fields. I have a BBA and can easily identify the shit leadership is pulling right out of a business management text book. The whole movement to total process improvement, six sigma, AFSO 21, green-belts, blah blah blah, is straight up non-applicable in real terms to the military (they may appear to be, but I'll be damned if they do), but the shit is getting forced on us nonetheless and its taking it's toll. Morale is crap. Military bearing is crap. Total lack of backbone in middle leadership positions. I've got high hopes for the current CSAF, sincerely, but he's got a lot of bad MBA influenced culture to change before things bet any better.

I was lucky enough to have lunch with CCM Klukas the other day, and man, this guy, winner. He's winning more than Charlie Sheen. Seriously. Anyhoo, EPRs and how the CMSAF is taking time to look at it got brought up and it was vaguely insinuated that volunteerism and education are going to be pushed to back of the bus behind primary duties again. I don't think I can say how much that whole conversation and his outlook truly resonated with me. I believe there's a lot of thought going into how to fix the enlisted side of the house, my gut feeling tells me, however, not as much emphasis is being done with the officer corps, which in all honesty, is broke as f*ck. Probably more broke than the enlisted side. Education, straight up, needs to be down-played... a lot. Seriously. Problem really is, that education is being placed in the hands of people just smart enough to understand some of it, but just dumb enough not to understand where and when it is appropriate to apply it, and shit just isn't changing on that front. Too many people with dangerous educations in positions where they end up shitting all over the people beneath them despite good intentions.

IDK, I guess I just think the AF (and I suppose the rest of the military) would really benefit from Masters and Doctoral programs in military studies, particularly if they were awarded by the respective academies.

"MBAs? We don't need no stinkin' MBAs! This is the motha lovin' militury motha-licka!"

My man...DannyJ.

JD2780
05-01-2013, 10:43 AM
[QUOTE=DannyJ;621305]I was kinda coming back to what Otis said. The AF is not a happy place right now. You've seen office space I take it, pretty much what things are becoming, particularly where I work. I place a lot of blame on the whole idea of making O-3s get a masters for promotion to Maj and not really caring what it's in. Read some bios out there right now in the range of Maj-Col. They're really weird. You see LOTS of MBAs, some in actual shit that pertains to the job they do, and then a few in military related fields. I have a BBA and can easily identify the shit leadership is pulling right out of a business management text book. The whole movement to total process improvement, six sigma, AFSO 21, green-belts, blah blah blah, is straight up non-applicable in real terms to the military (they may appear to be, but I'll be damned if they do), but the shit is getting forced on us nonetheless and its taking it's toll. Morale is crap. Military bearing is crap. Total lack of backbone in middle leadership positions. I've got high hopes for the current CSAF, sincerely, but he's got a lot of bad MBA influenced culture to change before things bet any better.

QUOTE]

So you had lunch Marty? Where is he at now? He was a BAMF back in the day.

imported_DannyJ
05-01-2013, 11:14 AM
[QUOTE=DannyJ;621305]I was kinda coming back to what Otis said. The AF is not a happy place right now. You've seen office space I take it, pretty much what things are becoming, particularly where I work. I place a lot of blame on the whole idea of making O-3s get a masters for promotion to Maj and not really caring what it's in. Read some bios out there right now in the range of Maj-Col. They're really weird. You see LOTS of MBAs, some in actual shit that pertains to the job they do, and then a few in military related fields. I have a BBA and can easily identify the shit leadership is pulling right out of a business management text book. The whole movement to total process improvement, six sigma, AFSO 21, green-belts, blah blah blah, is straight up non-applicable in real terms to the military (they may appear to be, but I'll be damned if they do), but the shit is getting forced on us nonetheless and its taking it's toll. Morale is crap. Military bearing is crap. Total lack of backbone in middle leadership positions. I've got high hopes for the current CSAF, sincerely, but he's got a lot of bad MBA influenced culture to change before things bet any better.

QUOTE]

So you had lunch Marty? Where is he at now? He was a BAMF back in the day.

Well, the lunch was with a group of NCOs and we ate at the DFAC. He's at TRANSCOM now. Still a BAMF in my book, maybe not doin his thing putting munitions on physical targets, but I don't know that I've met a truer leader.

JD2780
05-01-2013, 11:37 AM
[QUOTE=JD2780;621345]

Well, the lunch was with a group of NCOs and we ate at the DFAC. He's at TRANSCOM now. Still a BAMF in my book, maybe not doin his thing putting munitions on physical targets, but I don't know that I've met a truer leader.

He still sips on the kool-aid, but not as much as the rest. He can still out PT most Airmen. He was passing by and stopped by our unit a couple yrs ago. He did the high five a bro hug to one our guys and about knocked him off his crutches. Klukas is a decent guy. When he was at the 14th, everybody valued his leaderhsip. Its not oten you actually get a true leader at that level.

KellyinAvon
05-01-2013, 01:44 PM
I was kinda coming back to what Otis said. The AF is not a happy place right now. You've seen office space I take it, pretty much what things are becoming, particularly where I work. I place a lot of blame on the whole idea of making O-3s get a masters for promotion to Maj and not really caring what it's in. Read some bios out there right now in the range of Maj-Col. They're really weird. You see LOTS of MBAs, some in actual shit that pertains to the job they do, and then a few in military related fields. I have a BBA and can easily identify the shit leadership is pulling right out of a business management text book. The whole movement to total process improvement, six sigma, AFSO 21, green-belts, blah blah blah, is straight up non-applicable in real terms to the military (they may appear to be, but I'll be damned if they do), but the shit is getting forced on us nonetheless and its taking it's toll. Morale is crap. Military bearing is crap. Total lack of backbone in middle leadership positions. I've got high hopes for the current CSAF, sincerely, but he's got a lot of bad MBA influenced culture to change before things bet any better.

I was lucky enough to have lunch with CCM Klukas the other day, and man, this guy, winner. He's winning more than Charlie Sheen. Seriously. Anyhoo, EPRs and how the CMSAF is taking time to look at it got brought up and it was vaguely insinuated that volunteerism and education are going to be pushed to back of the bus behind primary duties again. I don't think I can say how much that whole conversation and his outlook truly resonated with me. I believe there's a lot of thought going into how to fix the enlisted side of the house, my gut feeling tells me, however, not as much emphasis is being done with the officer corps, which in all honesty, is broke as f*ck. Probably more broke than the enlisted side. Education, straight up, needs to be down-played... a lot. Seriously. Problem really is, that education is being placed in the hands of people just smart enough to understand some of it, but just dumb enough not to understand where and when it is appropriate to apply it, and shit just isn't changing on that front. Too many people with dangerous educations in positions where they end up shitting all over the people beneath them despite good intentions.

IDK, I guess I just think the AF (and I suppose the rest of the military) would really benefit from Masters and Doctoral programs in military studies, particularly if they were awarded by the respective academies.

"MBAs? We don't need no stinkin' MBAs! This is the motha lovin' militury motha-licka!"

Thanks for the reply DannyJ. I'm starting on my MBA this fall is why I raised the "whaa-huh" flag.

I can see where you're coming from on that. I always looked at what get from being a Business Administration major (or 3S3X1 Manpower and Organization Analyst) was tools to be used on the job. Things that work in the private sector (just in time logistics for example) are a complete CHARLIE FOXTROT in the military. Likewise the military doesn't have a bottom line on a financial statement and we don't have to worry about our customers going elsewhere.

OtisRNeedleman
05-01-2013, 02:27 PM
I was kinda coming back to what Otis said. The AF is not a happy place right now. You've seen office space I take it, pretty much what things are becoming, particularly where I work. I place a lot of blame on the whole idea of making O-3s get a masters for promotion to Maj and not really caring what it's in. Read some bios out there right now in the range of Maj-Col. They're really weird. You see LOTS of MBAs, some in actual shit that pertains to the job they do, and then a few in military related fields. I have a BBA and can easily identify the shit leadership is pulling right out of a business management text book. The whole movement to total process improvement, six sigma, AFSO 21, green-belts, blah blah blah, is straight up non-applicable in real terms to the military (they may appear to be, but I'll be damned if they do), but the shit is getting forced on us nonetheless and its taking it's toll. Morale is crap. Military bearing is crap. Total lack of backbone in middle leadership positions. I've got high hopes for the current CSAF, sincerely, but he's got a lot of bad MBA influenced culture to change before things bet any better.

I was lucky enough to have lunch with CCM Klukas the other day, and man, this guy, winner. He's winning more than Charlie Sheen. Seriously. Anyhoo, EPRs and how the CMSAF is taking time to look at it got brought up and it was vaguely insinuated that volunteerism and education are going to be pushed to back of the bus behind primary duties again. I don't think I can say how much that whole conversation and his outlook truly resonated with me. I believe there's a lot of thought going into how to fix the enlisted side of the house, my gut feeling tells me, however, not as much emphasis is being done with the officer corps, which in all honesty, is broke as f*ck. Probably more broke than the enlisted side. Education, straight up, needs to be down-played... a lot. Seriously. Problem really is, that education is being placed in the hands of people just smart enough to understand some of it, but just dumb enough not to understand where and when it is appropriate to apply it, and shit just isn't changing on that front. Too many people with dangerous educations in positions where they end up shitting all over the people beneath them despite good intentions.

IDK, I guess I just think the AF (and I suppose the rest of the military) would really benefit from Masters and Doctoral programs in military studies, particularly if they were awarded by the respective academies.

"MBAs? We don't need no stinkin' MBAs! This is the motha lovin' militury motha-licka!"


A bit more about captains needing that master's degree to make major...that de facto requirement has been around for a very long time. Was commissioned in 1981 and didn't take long to find out the master's was needed. Got it in 1989, in plenty of time for the major's board.

LogDog
05-01-2013, 06:56 PM
Amen....granted, the more you serve, the less your compensation is relative to the civilian sector but for someone just out of high school, they are paid the equivalent to a college grad....one that can find an job anyway... Not too shabby IMO...
I agree that the benefits, including pay, are good but I would add what job in the civilian sector guarantees you a retirement check. The federal government, to my knowledge, has never failed to pay military retirees. My father and brother both received their military retirement checks on-time every month just like I do now. In the civilian sector there is no guarantee that a company will pay you your retirement check next month.

I'll also agree that for the lowest 3 enlisted ranks would qualify for the worst jobs in America but the good news on that is if they keep their noses clean and do their jobs they will be promoted out of those categories.

Tak
05-01-2013, 06:57 PM
Why did officer not make the list?

Capt Alfredo
05-01-2013, 11:18 PM
I realize it's a bit off-topic, but the idea that captains should get masters degrees is a bad one. A captain should be spending his time getting smart on his job, taking care of his people (if he has any), and generally doing value-added things at work. He should not be wasting his time getting a degree in underwater basket weaving from American Military University or any other rent-a-degree from an online degree mill (full disclosure: I have an MA from AMU in Strategic Intelligence. It was useless, but I did get promoted to O-4.) Let the officer get a useful degree as an FGO.

Tak
05-02-2013, 12:27 AM
I realize it's a bit off-topic, but the idea that captains should get masters degrees is a bad one. A captain should be spending his time getting smart on his job, taking care of his people (if he has any), and generally doing value-added things at work. He should not be wasting his time getting a degree in underwater basket weaving from American Military University or any other rent-a-degree from an online degree mill (full disclosure: I have an MA from AMU in Strategic Intelligence. It was useless, but I did get promoted to O-4.) Let the officer get a useful degree as an FGO.

Do you think airmen should be getting ccafs

Pullinteeth
05-02-2013, 01:57 AM
I realize it's a bit off-topic, but the idea that captains should get masters degrees is a bad one. A captain should be spending his time getting smart on his job, taking care of his people (if he has any), and generally doing value-added things at work. He should not be wasting his time getting a degree in underwater basket weaving from American Military University or any other rent-a-degree from an online degree mill (full disclosure: I have an MA from AMU in Strategic Intelligence. It was useless, but I did get promoted to O-4.) Let the officer get a useful degree as an FGO.

Why not? Until just a few years ago, all it took to get a commission was to buy a degree.... Granted the AF was still commissioning officers without a degree (and technically still can-and the ANG DOES)...

imported_chipotleboy
05-02-2013, 08:15 PM
I realize it's a bit off-topic, but the idea that captains should get masters degrees is a bad one. A captain should be spending his time getting smart on his job, taking care of his people (if he has any), and generally doing value-added things at work. He should not be wasting his time getting a degree in underwater basket weaving from American Military University or any other rent-a-degree from an online degree mill (full disclosure: I have an MA from AMU in Strategic Intelligence. It was useless, but I did get promoted to O-4.) Let the officer get a useful degree as an FGO.

I've been around long enough to see graduate degrees listed on the Officer Selection Record, then deleted (to be fair to the flyers who didn't have time to complete a degree because they were deployed), then back in the Officer Selection Record now that MS degrees are being issued in the Cracker Jack boxes distributed at Officer PME courses.

Education is important ... if it is relevant. In my case, getting a graduate degree as a scientist is akin to a flyer or intel guy going to weapons school. It's directly related to my job, attendance is competitive, and failure to complete is a career killer. I think a positive way to handle it is to only include it in the OSR if the Career Field Development Team validates it as being relevant to the officer's career field. That would require officers to focus their off duty education on something relevant as opposed to square filling exercises.

DannyJ is spot on. The officer corps is broke. I remember General Gabriel in the 1980s lecturing about careerism and how we needed to focus on doing our jobs well today instead of worrying about what squares to fill to make General when you're still a Lt. Then in the early 1990s, there was Senior Leader guidance that officers shouldn't make a career out of being section commanders and executive officers, but should only get one of those in their careers, and one tour only. All that has fallen by the wayside. I've seen officers rewarded with PME school slots for being career exec/section commanders, spending little of their time on their jobs, and instead focusing on getting that next square filled to make General. And when it comes time for them to lead an organization, they appear clueless about the mission of the organization. The Army knows they have a leadership problem and are going through some soul searching on how to deal with it. I doubt if the AF will ever come to terms with their leadership problems.

Tak
05-03-2013, 01:24 AM
If you want my honest opinion, I'd say no, not really. I never got one, though all I needed was a math class, because I couldn't see the value and going "backwards" to get it. It doesn't really hurt anything to get one, since most often pursuing a BA or BS will get you a CCAF along the way anyway, but in today's society, having a two-year degree isn't really going to cut it. There are exceptions.

well,you wouldn't have made SMSgt or CMSgt,but you make more than them as a Major...makes sense

Capt Alfredo
05-03-2013, 01:24 AM
Do you think airmen should be getting ccafs

If you want my honest opinion, I'd say no, not really. I never got one, though all I needed was a math class, because I couldn't see the value and going "backwards" to get it. It doesn't really hurt anything to get one, since most often pursuing a BA or BS will get you a CCAF along the way anyway, but in today's society, having a two-year degree isn't really going to cut it. There are exceptions.

Capt Alfredo
05-03-2013, 01:25 AM
Why not? Until just a few years ago, all it took to get a commission was to buy a degree.... Granted the AF was still commissioning officers without a degree (and technically still can-and the ANG DOES)...

I can't figure out if there is a question in this or just a comment.

Tak
05-03-2013, 01:28 AM
If you want my honest opinion, I'd say no, not really. I never got one, though all I needed was a math class, because I couldn't see the value and going "backwards" to get it. It doesn't really hurt anything to get one, since most often pursuing a BA or BS will get you a CCAF along the way anyway, but in today's society, having a two-year degree isn't really going to cut it. There are exceptions.

well,you wouldn't have made SMSgt or CMSgt,but you make more than them as a Major...makes sense

jondstewart
05-05-2013, 05:42 AM
If you want my honest opinion, I'd say no, not really. I never got one, though all I needed was a math class, because I couldn't see the value and going "backwards" to get it. It doesn't really hurt anything to get one, since most often pursuing a BA or BS will get you a CCAF along the way anyway, but in today's society, having a two-year degree isn't really going to cut it. There are exceptions.

I got my CCAF after I graduated the NCO Academy years ago and it has at the very least proved a good resume builder after I retired. But i can't say I've ever "used it". There's a lot of talk on Airmen getting or having degrees, but the reality is that more than half of those who make a career of the Air Force don't even have a CCAF at minimum.

I've seen a lot of discussions on pay, yes, as an E2/E3 at 19-20 years of age, you have it very good comparable to civilians your age with a paycheck with room, food, 30 days of leave a year, and free medical added, but if you're 30 years old and a SSgt/TSgt, you're making about as much as the average college grad starting out with a college grad job. And a 28 year CMSgt is making about the same as a 12 year Major, who is not much older than the time the Chief came in the military. Yeah, there's definitely a gap there

As for federal employees, the skilled blue collar workers in the WG6-10 category fare better than the GS9-12 middle managers, who have more responsibility in most cases. A cook or bus driver is usually a WG6-8 and they make around a GS-9-11 pay

BOSS302
05-05-2013, 08:47 AM
I got my CCAF after I graduated the NCO Academy years ago and it has at the very least proved a good resume builder after I retired. But i can't say I've ever "used it". There's a lot of talk on Airmen getting or having degrees, but the reality is that more than half of those who make a career of the Air Force don't even have a CCAF at minimum.

I've seen a lot of discussions on pay, yes, as an E2/E3 at 19-20 years of age, you have it very good comparable to civilians your age with a paycheck with room, food, 30 days of leave a year, and free medical added, but if you're 30 years old and a SSgt/TSgt, you're making about as much as the average college grad starting out with a college grad job. And a 28 year CMSgt is making about the same as a 12 year Major, who is not much older than the time the Chief came in the military. Yeah, there's definitely a gap there

As for federal employees, the skilled blue collar workers in the WG6-10 category fare better than the GS9-12 middle managers, who have more responsibility in most cases. A cook or bus driver is usually a WG6-8 and they make around a GS-9-11 pay

Show me a college graduate who is "starting out" that has a steady, guaranteed job and salary - guaranteed in that, unless this SSgt/TSgt screws up, they are good to go for at least their enlistment.

Show me a college graduate who is "starting out" that, in addition to their salary, gets an allowance for housing, an allowance for food, and a yearly allowance for duty-related clothing...not forgetting the overseas part in which one gets a Utility Allowance and a COLA.

Show me a college graduate who is "starting out" that has free medical coverage, free access to recreational programs such as Outdoor Recreation, Arts and Crafts, free gym, auto hobby shops to work on their vehicle, dedicated military postal service centers, discounted child care centers, free tax filing centers.

Show me a college graduate who is "starting out" that (as it stands now) has the opportunity to put in twenty years of work and have retirement pay/medical benefits for life.

Show me a college graduate who is "starting out" that has the opportunity to have a Master's Degree paid for by their employer in full, AND to take time off during the duty day to accomplish it no matter the adverse impact it would have on the work area; who has the opportunity to transfer a college payment program to their child so that they do not have to worry about pinching pennies for 18 years in order to send their kid to college; who has the opportunity to send their spouse to college at no cost or greatly-reduced cost.

The military has it good. But, as usual with today's 20-40 somethings, they want more-more-more. No matter how green their grass is, someone else's is greener and thus they just "gotta have it".

KellyinAvon
05-05-2013, 11:01 AM
Show me a college graduate who is "starting out" that has a steady, guaranteed job and salary - guaranteed in that, unless this SSgt/TSgt screws up, they are good to go for at least their enlistment.

Show me a college graduate who is "starting out" that, in addition to their salary, gets an allowance for housing, an allowance for food, and a yearly allowance for duty-related clothing...not forgetting the overseas part in which one gets a Utility Allowance and a COLA.

Show me a college graduate who is "starting out" that has free medical coverage, free access to recreational programs such as Outdoor Recreation, Arts and Crafts, free gym, auto hobby shops to work on their vehicle, dedicated military postal service centers, discounted child care centers, free tax filing centers.

Show me a college graduate who is "starting out" that (as it stands now) has the opportunity to put in twenty years of work and have retirement pay/medical benefits for life.

Show me a college graduate who is "starting out" that has the opportunity to have a Master's Degree paid for by their employer in full, AND to take time off during the duty day to accomplish it no matter the adverse impact it would have on the work area; who has the opportunity to transfer a college payment program to their child so that they do not have to worry about pinching pennies for 18 years in order to send their kid to college; who has the opportunity to send their spouse to college at no cost or greatly-reduced cost.

The military has it good. But, as usual with today's 20-40 somethings, they want more-more-more. No matter how green their grass is, someone else's is greener and thus they just "gotta have it".

Does force shaping and PT-related purges void the guarantee?

Hey I spent 21+ with Big Blue and I will always be thankful for what I got in return for those 21+ years. Any amount of comparison with the civilian world (private or public) needs a few **'s because at best it's apples to oranges, at worst ice cream to Tuesday.
The amount of responsibility that comes with a profession that exists to inflict deadly force is staggering compared to any other profession. Likewise the responsibility to be prepared to go to the other side of the world for an extended period is something most people can't comprehend.
GI Bill, transfer? Spouse employment preference? Spouse tuition benefits? I never saw that. I did see my wife give up good jobs and my kids change schools because Big Blue decided we needed to live someplace else. That's part of it when you're a GI, and it's something else most people can't comprehend.

Airborne
05-05-2013, 01:17 PM
Show me a college graduate...

Im picking up what your throwing down, but I agree with what the guy is getting at. The job market stinks right now, but if you get into a good engineering field or IT somewhere in Silicon Valley you get a lot of what you mention.

-No job is gauranteed, not even in the military.
-The allowances are nice in that they are mobile but it's hard not to budget it out over the course of 20 years only for the government to tell you were only calculating your pension from your base pay. I think it's a way for the government to make everything seem awesome but in the end youre getting ripped off.

-Medical coverage Ill perhaps give you but our national medical care system is in shambles so there is no telling what someone might be entitled to. Some companies are probably giving better care for free, some worse. Outdoor rec...nice try. Arts and crafts...laughable. Free gym...Yes. Auto hobby shops...the one at my base is closed. The one at my last base wouldnt let you do anything more difficult than an oil change or brake job. PSCs...I guess depending on where you live and your base. Its more convenient for me to go to my neighborhood PO than drive all the way around the flight line to go to the base one thats closed at 1530. Most young people dont use the post office much anymore anyway. Turbo tax.

-I agree but any smart person can put money away if they work their whole lives and be set up just as well or better than the military. But who knows what the future holds for the military or private sector.

-As of a few weeks ago that was not the case. It is the case now but it wont be for much longer. 10 years ago you might not have had a problem taking classes during the day but now youd be hard pressed to do that and not catch a whole lot of flak for it, especially if your a SSgt-MSgt. GI Bill...OK.

Yes the military has it good in some ways, but there is a lot of sacrifice. You can spend 20 years being an infantry man or weapons troop and even if you have a degree you get out with no marketable skills in your degree and you were doing something that doesnt exist in the private sector. Your spouse may have to give up jobs and never get to save money or build their resume. You will probably live in a severely economically and/or socially depressed area at least once. You will probably miss some significant moments in your family's life. Your kid may have a hard time adjusting in schools after several moves. You might not be able to get on the property ladder.

Kids these days, etc...

Pullinteeth
05-05-2013, 01:23 PM
I can't figure out if there is a question in this or just a comment.

If you can be commissioned without a degree (or one that was purchased not earned) what is the harm in requiring those that want make Major to go out and get an actual degree-esp if the AF is paying for it?

Capt Alfredo
05-05-2013, 01:59 PM
If you can be commissioned without a degree (or one that was purchased not earned) what is the harm in requiring those that want make Major to go out and get an actual degree-esp if the AF is paying for it?

It's not harm so much as a waste of time and money. In theory, once you make major, the Air Force might just send you to get another masters degree. I've known officers with three or more masters. Why? Let's make it visible to the lt col board and that way a huge generation of capts and lts who will probably not be making a career of it (but want to hedge their bets) won't be eating up all the TA on useless on-line degrees.

Tak
05-05-2013, 03:07 PM
It's not harm so much as a waste of time and money. In theory, once you make major, the Air Force might just send you to get another masters degree. I've known officers with three or more masters. Why? Let's make it visible to the lt col board and that way a huge generation of capts and lts who will probably not be making a career of it (but want to hedge their bets) won't be eating up all the TA on useless on-line degrees.

Time to up the ante, New req for major...PhD.

sandsjames
05-05-2013, 06:09 PM
Time to up the ante, New req for major...PhD.


No, it should be much more difficult than that. Make them get a second CCAF in order to prove they are smarter than the MSgts with only one.

imported_DannyJ
05-05-2013, 08:06 PM
No, it should be much more difficult than that. Make them get a second CCAF in order to prove they are smarter than the MSgts with only one.

FANTASTIC IDEA!

Tak
05-06-2013, 03:45 AM
No, it should be much more difficult than that. Make them get a second CCAF in order to prove they are smarter than the MSgts with only one.

Makem do course 14!

Golther
05-06-2013, 04:46 AM
No, it should be much more difficult than that. Make them get a second CCAF in order to prove they are smarter than the MSgts with only one.


Well hell I just recently got my second CCAF and I am still a SrA. Fuck I must be MUCH smarter than some SNCOS.

Tak
05-06-2013, 04:48 AM
Well hell I just recently got my second CCAF and I am still a SrA. Fuck I must be MUCH smarter than some SNCOS.

The venacular is f@ck and you'll never be as smart as a dumb snco.

Capt Alfredo
05-06-2013, 02:21 PM
Makem do course 14!

I'm pretty sure ACSC by correspondence is similar.

Tak
05-06-2013, 02:32 PM
I'm pretty sure ACSC by correspondence is similar.

Similar in that it doesn't mean a f@cking thing? Except to clueless leaders.

JD2780
05-06-2013, 04:32 PM
Some good rules from a Soldier, but i think we could apply them to the AF. I know more AF adopting Army stuff. Now that you've rolled your eyes, read it over.

1.) Don't be a douche.

I am dead serious. Nothing pissed me off more than watching some wannabe tough guy treat his people like shit and then hear someone say "that's his leadership style". NO-GO. I fully admit there are a lot of ways of running a unit, but the foundation of leadership is integrity and love for your people. You can be hard and have high standards, but you cannot treat people like their existence is to serve you, amuse you, and accelerate your career. That is not a leadership style, it's an ego trip. Get over yourself or you will find yourself getting a wood line attitude adjustment .

My first boss was a hard ass. We had the best trained unit in the Brigade because he was always pushing for additional training. On the surface of it, one would argue he was doing everything right. When one of my NCOs found out his mother was dying, the commander actually tried to convince him that he shouldn't go see her, because his guys needed him more. This was pre-9/11. He was willing to trade one of his men's last moments with his mother in order to minimize the risk that his unit might get a slightly lower grade on the training exercise. Instantly, everyone realized that all his training wasn't to take care of us at all – this guy was really just a spotlight Ranger. His actions led to my first counseling by the Battalion Commander, but that is a different story. In short, don't be a douche.

2.) Your guys are more important than your career.

This ties in nicely with my last point, but it is worthy of its own bullet. You’re all going to be civilians someday, no matter how much you love the military or how long you serve. Years from now, the fact that you made Colonel or Sergeant Major won't erase the fact that you threw some unsuspecting subordinate under the bus to avoid punishment, and it certainly won't remove a stupid decision you made based on pressure from above that got someone killed or injured. Every leader I've ever respected has been willing to stand in the Gates of Fire when it mattered. If you're not willing to do this for your people, be honest with yourself and quit. Join corporate America – you'll just annoy people, not get them killed, and you'll make more money. Everyone wins.

3.) Be good at your job.

Every day you should be working your ass off to be technically and tactically skilled (note I didn't say proficient – you need to be better than that). You should be asking questions, reading, practicing, and training. You can be a super-nice dude or dudette who loves your troops, but if you don't know how to train them, lead them, and they aren't ready for combat, you are a colossal failure. If you look deep inside, you'll know the truth of where you are in this regard. Either fix it or quit.

4.) It's not your platoon.

Imagine you'd been doing a job for 12-15 years and grew so good at it that you were chosen ahead of others to lead 40 men into combat…with one caveat. You're not actually in charge – some kid young enough to be your son is in charge…and you have to train him… but he rates you. You couldn't make this shit up, right? When you're walking into that platoon, appreciate the fact that you're not the badass here. You, like your men and your platoon sergeant, have a job to do, and it is your job to do that as best you can. Acknowledge their experience and allow them to help you grow.

Towards the end of my time with my first platoon, my platoon sergeant and I were a team to be envied. We had figured out who was going to do what and we had each other's backs. He had been very "anti-PL" over the last few years (I was his fourth platoon leader), but decided to give me a chance when I shook his hand for the first time and said, "SFC Stewart – it looks like I'll be spending a year or so in your platoon. Thanks for having me." I'll give full credit to my dad, a former NCO, for that one but it was my firm intent to let him know I needed to learn and that I respected his position and sacrifice, and our men benefited as a result.

5.) It is your platoon.

We were at CMTC getting ready for our field problem. I was at an OPORD and my platoon sergeant had everyone in the bay cleaning equipment. Two of my new soldiers got into a fistfight over something stupid (one of them fancied himself a rapper and the other one felt his rap sucked – damn eighteen year olds). My platoon sergeant punished them by having the entire platoon outside in the mud wearing all of their recently cleaned equipment. He was smoking the ever-loving shit out of them when I rolled up on the scene. Spotting me, he made the motion to stay back (this was NCO business). So I hung low and watched from a distance so my guys couldn't see me. Just then Sergeant Major Chickenhawk rolled up – the same Sergeant Major that I hated and had recently outlawed this kind of "hazing" because it was politically expedient to do so. He grabbed my platoon sergeant by the shoulder and started digging into to him in front of my guys. I ran over and told the CSM that this was my platoon and that he could have the conversation with me. He told me that this was NCO business and I responded that my platoon sergeant was acting under my command with my permission to discipline the men. He walked me over to the battalion commander. They had me don my gear and do mud PT to "show me" how it felt. Well – you can't smoke a rock.

Yes, your platoon sergeant has more experience. Yes, he can run circles around you in a lot of areas. Yes, he should probably be in charge over you – but he isn't. You are, and anything that happens or fails to happen in your platoon is your responsibility. Furthermore, in this scenario, I had a great platoon sergeant and I agreed with him. But not all platoon sergeants are good and not all good platoon sergeants are always right – you need to trust your own judgment and execute accordingly, even if it means pissing your PSG off.

6.) Don't lie, ever, for any reason.

This isn't grade school. Your actions matter. If you fuck up, admit it as soon as possible, even if you think it'll hurt your career. The team cannot work on a solution until they know the truth, and this is one of the few jobs in the world where lies can get people killed. Furthermore, the military, for all its faults, is one of the few places on earth where honest mistakes are actually forgiven. Conversely, it is one of the few places where lies are extravagantly and brutally punished, and rightly so.

7.) You make mistakes – admit them.

Don't be that guy. Your men don't expect perfection. They expect you to strive every day for perfection. You'll be wrong a lot. Fess up, get over it, get their feedback and drive on. They will respect you infinitely more and they will trust you for it, as opposed to committing themselves over and over again to proving, quite creatively and to everyone's amusement, that you are often wrong.

8.) Leader is not equal to BFF.

I loved my guys. I still love my guys, even though I'm very far removed from being in command. Many good-intentioned leaders make the mistake of believing that being a great leader means never having your guys be upset with you and hanging out with them all the time. There's nothing wrong with taking your platoon out for a night on the town. There's nothing wrong with socializing with guys when you bump into them at a bar. There is something wrong with passing out on your PV2s couch at 3AM. Once you become "one of the guys", you're no longer their leader, and they need you to be in charge a lot more than they need another buddy.

9.) You're not the smartest guy in the platoon.

A lot of guys make the mistake of thinking that because they have achieved a certain rank, or have a certain degree; they are in some way superior to the others in their unit. In my first platoon alone, I had 7/20 privates or specialists with college degrees – one with a master's degree. One of them was literally a genius, having maxed out the MENSA (weak-ass organization, by the way) test. You're not in charge because you're the smartest or most talented or anything else – you're in charge because you signed up to be the LT. Don't act superior, because you aren't – just do your job.

10.) You can never quit.

You don't have to be the fastest runner, or do the most pushups, or be the best at combatives, or be the best shot, but you can never quit. The second your guys see you give up, you've lost them. Period.

11.) You are not the focal point of your subordinates' lives.

They don't spend their nights thinking about you, your speeches, or your goals. They have wives, kids, girlfriends, bills, friends, and problems. Acknowledge that – your men are not here to serve you. They're here to serve your country. You're here to serve them.

12.) But your subordinates watch everything you do.

Just because they don't live their lives around you, doesn't mean you're not important to them. If you lie, they assume it is okay. If you quit, they assume it is okay. Your actions, not your mission statements, speeches, codes, creeds, etc. will set their standard of behavior.

13.) Get your boss's back.

Everyone wants to be in charge…until they are there. We all think we could do a better job than our boss – sometimes it's very true and sometimes it isn't – but as long as he or she is working hard to take care of your men and complete the mission, you owe it to them to ensure they succeed. You'll be there someday, and you'll find that despite your best efforts, you are very fallible.

14.) Have a sense of humor.

You will be tested. When I came on board my first platoon, my guys tried to get me with every snipe hunt in the book – PRC-E8, keys to the indoor mortar range, box of grid squares – you name it. Skillfully, I held out for three weeks, until that day in the motor pool. In formation, the motor chief announced that today was the day that everyone had to turn in vehicle exhaust samples. Promptly, the motor sergeants disseminated to each platoon a vehicle exhaust sample kit, which included labels, sharpies, and garbage bags. My guys grabbed the bags, turned on their vehicles and began throwing the garbage bags around the exhaust pipe, filling it, then promptly tying the bag off and labeling it. This just didn't seem right – all the more so when they asked if I wanted to help get samples. I balked. They guilt tripped me. Finally, even though I was at least 25 percent sure I was being had, I filled a bag with exhaust and started walking to drop it off at the motor chief's office. Sure enough, they snapped about 2000 pictures of this jackass 2LT running around with a bag of exhaust.

They got their laughs and busted my balls about it. We were about to head to an 18-hour computer simulation exercise. Immediately afterwards they had a room inspection with all their gear laid out. They, of course, had done this the night before, knowing they'd be going right from the exercise to the inspection.

As all the guys moved to the simulator, all the officers got called back to the bays for the OPORD. When I came back, I asked them, "Don't you guys have an inspection tomorrow?"

"Roger, sir," they responded.

“Man, it’d suck if someone dumped everyone’s gear into one huge pile and then covered it in baby powder, wouldn’t it?” I asked.

Their faces dropped. They fucking hated me. I had gone way too far and clearly was getting back at them for the exhaust sample thing. For the rest of the exercise it was hard to get anyone to talk to me – even my platoon sergeant was edgy.

The exercise ended and we all came back to the bays – they knew they only had an hour to salvage the inspection. When they busted into their bay, they found that none of their stuff had been touched and was in perfect inspection mode.

"Sir, you are a fucking dick!" my platoon sergeant shouted.

"Why's that sergeant?" I asked.

"You said you dumped all our shit out on the floor and covered it in baby powder!"

"No, sergeant – I said it would suck if someone were to do that," I smiled.

I could take it, but I could give it back too. There would be no more fucking with this LT.

15.) Do the right thing.

This is the last and perhaps most important aspect of leadership. I am a big believer that in almost every single case, people know the right course of action. The bigger question is whether they have the courage to make the right decision, even when making that decision could be personally harmful.

Decide now to always be a force of good. Don't justify away indiscretions. Don't sell out. Your life will be easier, your men will respect you more, and you’ll sleep at night. More importantly, you won't start down that slippery slope towards being one of those leaders that will do anything to get ahead. We all want to think we're the next coming of Patton or Eisenhower.

No one thinks they are a bad leader, but it doesn't take much to get there and it happens incrementally – one little lie or moral concession at a time.