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jondstewart
04-25-2013, 08:01 AM
I've been reading posts on how government employees are being screwed on pay and you have many GS-12's doing the equivalent work of a GS-7 and so on. And about hiring freezes

I'm trying to make sense of this because before I retired from the Air Force, my goal was to get the WG-8 position at the dining hall on Elmendorf as a cook, since a civilian retired after some 40 years and I was going to replace him. The civilian cook boss and the deputy commander said the job was on the books, but I had also heard other rumors that 2 civilians cooks would had to quit or retire for one position to be available. Well, a year later, one of the civilian cooks died and still no posting months later

The food service giant Aramark took over for most of the food service operations on base in late 2010 and I think that could be part of the reason why it's not happening

It's a shame this is happening; many retirees and those separating are best suited for government employment at retirement. I mean, you're not going to make $26-$27 an hour as a cook, motor vehicle operator, and the like in the civilian world!

As a final note, a WG-6 position I worked when I was on terminal leave at Galena, Alaska was posted a few months ago and paying the exact same hourly wages in 2013 as it was in 2011. So pay has been frozen until further notice?

CrustySMSgt
04-25-2013, 08:33 AM
You know who's "best suited for government (military) employment"... AIRMEN!

I hope they get rid of most of the civilians and convert most billets back to military. While there are some positions, like the historian that are fine having a civilian homestead in them, for most, run off the dead weight and give us back Airmen who can deploy, do details, and not throw out the BS "It's not in my PD" nonsense everytime you need them to do something.

tiredretiredE7
04-25-2013, 08:54 AM
You know who's "best suited for government (military) employment"... AIRMEN!

I hope they get rid of most of the civilians and convert most billets back to military. While there are some positions, like the historian that are fine having a civilian homestead in them, for most, run off the dead weight and give us back Airmen who can deploy, do details, and not throw out the BS "It's not in my PD" nonsense everytime you need them to do something.

I absolutely agree with you but for a different reason. AD Amn is much cheaper than civilians. There are simply too many GS-10s doing the same job and working next to a SrA. Just convert those positions back to AD Amn and the savings will be immediate. The same goes for all of the contractor jobs. The theory was a government contractor would save money because the government would not have the long-term payout for healthcare and retirement. Those payments would be made by the civilian company. Well guess who filled the civilian contractor positions? Recently retired AD so there isn't any cost savings. Only remaining problem is for the AF to go back to congress and explain what I just said and admit the AF was wrong during the initial agreements for the use of civilian contractors. However, BigBlue still has a lot of egg in its eye from all of the recent mismanagement and this would make BigBlue look even more incompetent. And no, this is not the fault of a Chief somewhere, Bruwin.

BRUWIN
04-25-2013, 09:26 AM
I am a GS-11. I am the equivelent in rank to a Capt.

tiredretiredE7
04-25-2013, 09:26 AM
I am a GS-11. I am the equivelent in rank to a Capt.

Hopefully they give you a nice severance package when your position is converted back to a AD E4 slot.

KellyinAvon
04-25-2013, 09:43 AM
PPBES (that's Planning, Programming, Budgeting, and Execution System, Bob) 101:
The number of military positions is chiseled in granite.
The number of funded civilian positions can change with each POM (Program Objective Memorandum, Bob) cycle (every 2 years).
You can re-program funding for civilian pay, allowing an increase in the number of civilian positions provided the is a valid requirement.
Overall positions are officer, enlisted and civilian, programming factors are used based on the average cost of each. There is no grade/rank involved until the position is on the UMD (Unit Manpower Document, Bob).

Contractors (A-76, advisory and assistance, slimy, other) will be discussed later.

CrustySMSgt
04-25-2013, 10:25 AM
It's a shame this is happening; many retirees and those separating are best suited for government employment at retirement. I mean, you're not going to make $26-$27 an hour as a cook, motor vehicle operator, and the like in the civilian world!




I absolutely agree with you but for a different reason. AD Amn is much cheaper than civilians. There are simply too many GS-10s doing the same job and working next to a SrA. Just convert those positions back to AD Amn and the savings will be immediate. The same goes for all of the contractor jobs. The theory was a government contractor would save money because the government would not have the long-term payout for healthcare and retirement. Those payments would be made by the civilian company. Well guess who filled the civilian contractor positions? Recently retired AD so there isn't any cost savings. Only remaining problem is for the AF to go back to congress and explain what I just said and admit the AF was wrong during the initial agreements for the use of civilian contractors. However, BigBlue still has a lot of egg in its eye from all of the recent mismanagement and this would make BigBlue look even more incompetent. And no, this is not the fault of a Chief somewhere, Bruwin.

The above comment absolutely makes your point! We're paying someone $26-27 an hour to flip eggs?!? And people actually think that makes sense?!?

ConfusedAirman
04-25-2013, 11:18 AM
I absolutely agree with you but for a different reason. AD Amn is much cheaper than civilians. There are simply too many GS-10s doing the same job and working next to a SrA. Just convert those positions back to AD Amn and the savings will be immediate. The same goes for all of the contractor jobs. The theory was a government contractor would save money because the government would not have the long-term payout for healthcare and retirement. Those payments would be made by the civilian company. Well guess who filled the civilian contractor positions? Recently retired AD so there isn't any cost savings. Only remaining problem is for the AF to go back to congress and explain what I just said and admit the AF was wrong during the initial agreements for the use of civilian contractors. However, BigBlue still has a lot of egg in its eye from all of the recent mismanagement and this would make BigBlue look even more incompetent. And no, this is not the fault of a Chief somewhere, Bruwin.


Your point # 1 - govt will save by not having to pay healthcare and retirement for contractors

PLUS

Your point # 2 - those contractor jobs went to retired AD

Does not add up to "so there isn't any cost savings".

The govt was going to pay healthcare and retirement for those AD retirees whether they came back to work as contractors or sat at home on their ass.

JD2780
04-25-2013, 11:39 AM
I've been reading posts on how government employees are being screwed on pay and you have many GS-12's doing the equivalent work of a GS-7 and so on. And about hiring freezes

I'm trying to make sense of this because before I retired from the Air Force, my goal was to get the WG-8 position at the dining hall on Elmendorf as a cook, since a civilian retired after some 40 years and I was going to replace him. The civilian cook boss and the deputy commander said the job was on the books, but I had also heard other rumors that 2 civilians cooks would had to quit or retire for one position to be available. Well, a year later, one of the civilian cooks died and still no posting months later

The food service giant Aramark took over for most of the food service operations on base in late 2010 and I think that could be part of the reason why it's not happening

It's a shame this is happening; many retirees and those separating are best suited for government employment at retirement. I mean, you're not going to make $26-$27 an hour as a cook, motor vehicle operator, and the like in the civilian world!

As a final note, a WG-6 position I worked when I was on terminal leave at Galena, Alaska was posted a few months ago and paying the exact same hourly wages in 2013 as it was in 2011. So pay has been frozen until further notice?

You know who the military should have in those positions? Probably AD folks. You're already getting a retirement check and benefits. The military doesn't owe you post military employment.

SomeRandomGuy
04-25-2013, 12:26 PM
You know who the military should have in those positions? Probably AD folks. You're already getting a retirement check and benefits. The military doesn't owe you post military employment.

When I went through TAPS at Wright-Patt they asked the class what their employment goals were after separating/retiring. Out of about 20 people I think 2 had plans to not seek employment at all 2 had plans to find work in the civilian sector and the other 16 were focused on getting a position on the government gravy train. The problem is that no one ever leaves government positions and the people leaving active duty grows every day. There simply are not enough positions for everyone who wants them. If the government was smart they could figure out simple supply and demand and pay less for the positions and people would still take them. That is how you save money with contractors and GS employees. You create a position that pays less.

CrustySMSgt
04-25-2013, 12:30 PM
If the government was smart they could figure out simple supply and demand and pay less for the positions and people would still take them. That is how you save money with contractors and GS employees. You create a position that pays less.

You're an f-ing genius! Seriously! :clap2

BRUWIN
04-25-2013, 12:34 PM
Hopefully they give you a nice severance package when your position is converted back to a AD E4 slot.

PT is nowhere in the PD so they won't covert it to a blue suiter position...they need someone here that can actually be at work the full day.

tiredretiredE7
04-25-2013, 02:06 PM
Your point # 1 - govt will save by not having to pay healthcare and retirement for contractors

PLUS

Your point # 2 - those contractor jobs went to retired AD

Does not add up to "so there isn't any cost savings".

The govt was going to pay healthcare and retirement for those AD retirees whether they came back to work as contractors or sat at home on their ass.

The idea of hiring civilian contractors (with the obvious exception of GS/WG employees) was to hire people without any military background so the military would not have to pay the long-term costs of healthcare and retirement. However, most of the people who were retired at civilian contractors were recently retired AD who the government is obviously already paying retirement healthcare costs. This is why there isn't any cost savings and what my previous post said without the history of why the reason the military told congress to start the whole conversion from AD to civilian contractor. Hiring a recently retired AD as a civilian contractor actually ends up costing the military a minimum of 90% more than just converting the position back to AD.

SomeRandomGuy
04-25-2013, 02:15 PM
The idea of hiring civilian contractors (with the obvious exception of GS/WG employees) was to hire people without any military background so the military would not have to pay the long-term costs of healthcare and retirement. However, most of the people who were retired at civilian contractors were recently retired AD who the government is obviously already paying retirement healthcare costs. This is why there isn't any cost savings and what my previous post said without the history of why the reason the military told congress to start the whole conversion from AD to civilian contractor.

There are actually some savings with contractors. It all depends on how the contract is written and whether or not they use GSA labor rates. Contractors generally earn a better salary but do not have any job security. With GS civilians the government pays health care as well as TSP match and retirment costs. The government also incurs the human resources costs. With a contractor they simply pay for the person and the company handles everything else.


At my unit we have lots of contractors and GS employees. There are basically three types of GS employees that we have here. Permanent GS employees (funded by the Air Force) temporary/term employees who are hired for a specific term but can be renewed (these are normally paid by operation and maintenance funds but also can be unit funded) and overhire GS employees these are positions above the authorized numbers which come directly out of the unit's budget.

When debating the civilian/contractor/military debate there are a few things you need to remember. Everybody would love to have more military positions as they are generally cheaper and allow greater flexibility. The problem is that military end strength is determined by congress and an individual unit cannot simply decide to hire an additional military member. That leaves only two options, hire a GS civilian or hire a contractor. If you hire a GS you have to go through the process which can sometimes take as long as six months or more. If you hire a contractor you can generally get the contract written in a month and have someone right away. If the person you hired as a contractor does not work out you can terminate the contract or simply ask the contractor to remove them. If the GS you hire does not work out things are not as simple. The contractor costs more in the short term but it is much easier to get specific requirements and it is a lot easier to terminate a contractor.

Tak
04-25-2013, 02:18 PM
PT is nowhere in the PD so they won't covert it to a blue suiter position...they need someone here that can actually be at work the full day.

No kidding, had a gs11 boss before I retired,
He found ways to be off a day every week.

CYBERFX1024
04-25-2013, 02:40 PM
I ma a GS 11 here at the DOI or the Department of Interior for everyone else. What SomeRandomGuy says is true even for here in the non-DOD world. But we have another part as well, we have summer interns. They get a small stipend but in exchange they get some "work experience". I do work in the US Geological Survey, so alot of the people I work with have there PHD's.
Right now we are short 3 people, but we can not hire anyone because we are under a pay freeze. In fact we just let go someone 2 weeks ago when his term appointment ended and they didn't renew it. My boss got promoted to a higher position here covering everybody now, but she has still supervise us 6 people as well. Some how she was hired only working 4 10hour days. Now she is promoted she is still only working 4 days a week but with more work.
Usually contractors are easier to hire and pay because the company that get's the contract does all that. The company then decides to either cover healthcare, 401k, or just have the employee pay for it. The military doesn't pay for it. So added in everything usually a contractor is cheaper than a AD person and a GS

AR15MOTO
04-25-2013, 04:59 PM
For the job that I do as a GS, I replaced 4 active duty military members, an 03, an E7, an E6 and an E4.
4 contractors replaced the other 9 military members where I work.

That's 13 people that the military can use to "do their job" (what they were trained for).

You guys need to stop looking at the "pay" an E3 makes and instead figure the entire package.

It costs money to recruit, train, qualify and transfer military personnel.
It also costs money to cloth, house, feed and provide medical and dental for those military personnel.
When the military member makes rank, gets married or has children it costs more money.

In most cases it's cheaper to have a GS or a contractor do some jobs for the military.

sandsjames
04-25-2013, 05:05 PM
For the job that I do as a GS, I replaced 4 active duty military members, an 03, an E7, an E6 and an E4.
4 contractors replaced the other 9 military members where I work.

That's 13 people that the military can use to "do their job" (what they were trained for).

You guys need to stop looking at the "pay" an E3 makes and instead figure the entire package.

It costs money to recruit, train, qualify and transfer military personnel.
It also costs money to cloth, house, feed and provide medical and dental for those military personnel.
When the military member makes rank, gets married or has children it costs more money.

In most cases it's cheaper to have a GS or a contractor do some jobs for the military.

Plus a GS/contractor is not required to do all the extra BS AD has so an 8 hour day is actually an 8 hour day. This allows few people to do the job.

Dickie
04-25-2013, 05:14 PM
PPBES (that's Planning, Programming, Budgeting, and Execution System, Bob) 101:
The number of military positions is chiseled in granite.
The number of funded civilian positions can change with each POM (Program Objective Memorandum, Bob) cycle (every 2 years).
You can re-program funding for civilian pay, allowing an increase in the number of civilian positions provided the is a valid requirement.
Overall positions are officer, enlisted and civilian, programming factors are used based on the average cost of each. There is no grade/rank involved until the position is on the UMD (Unit Manpower Document, Bob).

Contractors (A-76, advisory and assistance, slimy, other) will be discussed later.

Kelly, thank you for posting this is important information. I spent 6 weeks at NCOA trying to explain this to everyone who cared in my class. The NCOA had a small section about manpower but it was very weak in my opinion.

Filterbing
04-25-2013, 05:54 PM
I once got sent to the deid and basicly worked a costumer service desk that any comm person could have done. I had also just got a re-enlistment bonus before it went away and they had about 4-6 civilians doing my real job in a tent across base. So, they are paying contractors, and paying me a bonus not to do my job.

Also when contracts are set up, it's not like these contractors give health care out of the goodness of there hearts. I would bet that the gov is paying the contractor enough on that contract to cover it. and still leave the contract company profits.

VFFTSGT
04-25-2013, 06:48 PM
You know who's "best suited for government (military) employment"... AIRMEN!

I hope they get rid of most of the civilians and convert most billets back to military. While there are some positions, like the historian that are fine having a civilian homestead in them, for most, run off the dead weight and give us back Airmen who can deploy, do details, and not throw out the BS "It's not in my PD" nonsense everytime you need them to do something.

Couldn't agree more.

CYBERFX1024
04-25-2013, 07:14 PM
I once got sent to the deid and basicly worked a costumer service desk that any comm person could have done. I had also just got a re-enlistment bonus before it went away and they had about 4-6 civilians doing my real job in a tent across base. So, they are paying contractors, and paying me a bonus not to do my job.

Also when contracts are set up, it's not like these contractors give health care out of the goodness of there hearts. I would bet that the gov is paying the contractor enough on that contract to cover it. and still leave the contract company profits.

Well believe it or not. Most companies overseas will insure that employee for free. While the employee would have to pay for medical for his/her family, the company doesn't pay it but that employee does. I had to pay $840 a month just for Health insurance, that is not including dental or vision. While the government would has to pay for a AD family health and vision insurance.
As a GS now I have to pay $156 a biweekly paycheck for just Health insurance for my family. The federal government does subsidize some of the cost of the plan. That's why I only pay $312 a month instead of $600.

Measure Man
04-25-2013, 07:39 PM
The idea of hiring civilian contractors (with the obvious exception of GS/WG employees) was to hire people without any military background so the military would not have to pay the long-term costs of healthcare and retirement. However, most of the people who were retired at civilian contractors were recently retired AD who the government is obviously already paying retirement healthcare costs. This is why there isn't any cost savings and what my previous post said without the history of why the reason the military told congress to start the whole conversion from AD to civilian contractor. Hiring a recently retired AD as a civilian contractor actually ends up costing the military a minimum of 90% more than just converting the position back to AD.

Your argument is completely devoid of logic.

I am retired military working as a contractor.

I use Tricare...that is a bill the govt. must pay whether I am working as a contractor or not. That bill was taken on when I was active duty, not as a contractor.

If my position was converted back to military...they would still have to pay my Tricare bill, plus they would have to pay Tricare for the person in this position. Double the cost.

If a civil servant were in this position...the govt. would still be paying my Tricare, plus the healthcare benefit of the civil servant.

Contractors are absolutely, positively the cheapest option out there. Then consider that a contractor performs the same function with half or less the people.

Let's say you are running a business...and you have a choice to hire a retired military guy, who has retirement benefits, or a civilian whom you will pay a cost-share to buy him health insurance. all other factors being equal, which is your cheapest option? Our company and the govt. LOVE it when we hire retired military, because many of them turn down the company medical to keep their Tricare Prime. Saves the govt. and company money.

Measure Man
04-25-2013, 07:44 PM
You know who's "best suited for government (military) employment"... AIRMEN!

I hope they get rid of most of the civilians and convert most billets back to military. While there are some positions, like the historian that are fine having a civilian homestead in them, for most, run off the dead weight and give us back Airmen who can deploy, do details, and not throw out the BS "It's not in my PD" nonsense everytime you need them to do something.

Airmen are the most expensive option. But, they are easier to supervise and you have more control over them.

Civilians are the next most expensive option...but, yes, you don't have as much control over them and you have to follow employment rules.

Contractors are the cheapest option...and it's not the govt's problem to supervise them.

VFFTSGT
04-25-2013, 07:59 PM
Airmen are the most expensive option. But, they are easier to supervise and you have more control over them.

Civilians are the next most expensive option...but, yes, you don't have as much control over them and you have to follow employment rules.

Contractors are the cheapest option...and it's not the govt's problem to supervise them.

GS-11 doing the job of a SrA is not a cheaper option.

A contractor getting paid more to do the same job as an Airman is not cheaper. This is why there has been an initiative to "in-source" - big blue, at least to some extent, has acknowledged contractors are not cheaper. Contractors work for a profit. If they really are so much cheaper while making a profit (off the military aka taxpayer), then the military should figure out how to do it cheaper.

Measure Man
04-25-2013, 08:11 PM
GS-11 doing the job of a SrA is not a cheaper option.

Well, generally a GS-11 is not doing SrA work.

But, still for the most part it is cheaper. The cost of a SrA is not just his paycheck...as mentioned before, it's his recruitment, BMT, tech training, his uniforms, his gym, his chow hall, his dorm, his 20-year retirement, his medical, his leave, PCS costs, more training, etc. etc. yes, a cvilian gets SOME of that, but nearly as much. That SrA didn't just show up and start working...he went to BMT, he went to Tech School, ALS maybe, etc.



A contractor getting paid more to do the same job as an Airman is not cheaper.

1 Contractor does not equal 1 Airmen. I work now in a very similar shop as one when I was active duty. My active duty shop had 72 people, my contractor shop has less than 25, nearly identical workload...and again, without the tail of support costs that go into being military.



This is why there has been an initiative to "in-source" - big blue, at least to some extent, has acknowledged contractors are not cheaper. Contractors work for a profit. If they really are so much cheaper while making a profit (off the military aka taxpayer), then the military should figure out how to do it cheaper.

The costs are in the benefits packages and support structures for GIs and civilians...if you could hire civil service without all the benefits and be able to fire them at-will...sure we could do the same thing a contractor does for the piddly profit they get (it's not a lot in most cases).

CYBERFX1024
04-25-2013, 08:14 PM
Your argument is completely devoid of logic.
I am retired military working as a contractor.
I use Tricare...that is a bill the govt. must pay whether I am working as a contractor or not. That bill was taken on when I was active duty, not as a contractor.
If my position was converted back to military...they would still have to pay my Tricare bill, plus they would have to pay Tricare for the person in this position. Double the cost.
If a civil servant were in this position...the govt. would still be paying my Tricare, plus the healthcare benefit of the civil servant.
Contractors are absolutely, positively the cheapest option out there. Then consider that a contractor performs the same function with half or less the people.
Let's say you are running a business...and you have a choice to hire a retired military guy, who has retirement benefits, or a civilian whom you will pay a cost-share to buy him health insurance. all other factors being equal, which is your cheapest option? Our company and the govt. LOVE it when we hire retired military, because many of them turn down the company medical to keep their Tricare Prime. Saves the govt. and company money.

Your comment makes sense but does not take into account a couple of things. You have Tricare Prime first off. Not all former military has that, I know I don't. Also if you talk about overseas contracting, which I am very familiar with. Most bases will not let a Retiree with Tricare Prime in to there facility unless it was a life or death matter.

So your argument only covers pretty much retirees not anyone else.

Measure Man
04-25-2013, 08:18 PM
Your comment makes sense but does not take into account a couple of things. You have Tricare Prime first off. Not all former military has that, I know I don't. Also if you talk about overseas contracting, which I am very familiar with. Most bases will not let a Retiree with Tricare Prime in to there facility unless it was a life or death matter.

So your argument only covers pretty much retirees not anyone else.

I was addressing his comment on military retirees...that's why I only addressed retirees.

You wanna talk a guy that got out after 4 years and has no Tricare? Fine, he is exactly the same as a civilian off the street as far as costs. Tired's argument seemed to be that retirees cost more...but, they don't they are even cheaper becasue they often do not take the medical.

So fine, maybe overseas the advantages of the retiree aren't as great, or don't exist at all...it still doesn't make them cost more than hiring a civilian off the street.

Jamethon
04-25-2013, 08:39 PM
Is everyone arguing FOR civilian employees missing the fact that they would just pull a AD person from a shop without adjusting the manning?

I know just enough civilian employees that find ways to avoid being at their desk just as much as the AD counterpart. Civilians are working for the government, yes, But they are working for the MILITARY. Don't be ticked off when your job isn't even really needed and they can you. There is no reason a GS position should be made for a commander's secretary. There is no reason a GS position should be made for a security manager, or a facility manager, or a similar position.

Tough luck.. Maybe if you are retired and wanted to do something on the outside, then you should have learned a skill that wasn't directly related to your military job.

efmbman
04-25-2013, 09:03 PM
So pay has been frozen until further notice?I could not see where anyone answered this part, but yes. Federal Pay is frozen at the FY2010 level through at least FY13. I know this affects the GS tables. I have no reason to believe it would not affect all the tables.

Measure Man
04-25-2013, 09:17 PM
Is everyone arguing FOR civilian employees missing the fact that they would just pull a AD person from a shop without adjusting the manning?

I would agree that if the duty is so small that it could be done as a GIs additional duty...then it is more than likely cheaper to do it that way.

Don't you ask yourself though...if I can just "pull a GI" out of the shop to do someone else's job...why is he there to begin with? This is where contracting saves, too...we only bid the minimum number to do the job we are asked to do. No slack.


I know just enough civilian employees that find ways to avoid being at their desk just as much as the AD counterpart. Civilians are working for the government, yes, But they are working for the MILITARY. Don't be ticked off when your job isn't even really needed and they can you. There is no reason a GS position should be made for a commander's secretary. There is no reason a GS position should be made for a security manager, or a facility manager, or a similar position.

One could also say there is no reason to have a military person doing those jobs. No one joined the military to be a secretary.


Tough luck.. Maybe if you are retired and wanted to do something on the outside, then you should have learned a skill that wasn't directly related to your military job.

Not sure who that's directed at or why.

VFFTSGT
04-26-2013, 01:06 AM
Well, generally a GS-11 is not doing SrA work. I have seen unit's with civilian UDM's...GS-9/11. Then seen units of equivalent size have SrA for UDM. I have seen a GS-11 perform as a RA and a SrA perform as a RA. There are multiple examples of civilian positions that over paid when compared to seeing what ranks have perform the jobs before.



But, still for the most part it is cheaper. The cost of a SrA is not just his paycheck...as mentioned before, it's his recruitment, BMT, tech training, his uniforms, his gym, his chow hall, his dorm, his 20-year retirement, his medical, his leave, PCS costs, more training, etc. etc. yes, a cvilian gets SOME of that, but nearly as much. That SrA didn't just show up and start working...he went to BMT, he went to Tech School, ALS maybe, etc.


All of these things are being funded already so not having an Airman to use them is a waste of money. This things are just the normal cost of doing business; overhead. The civilian only would save money in theory if we got rid of all of these functions, but these functions are required...

Civilians are typically former military trained by the military. If we went all civilian (which would defeat the purpose of a military)...eventually we would run out of trained people to choose from.


1 Contractor does not equal 1 Airmen. I work now in a very similar shop as one when I was active duty. My active duty shop had 72 people, my contractor shop has less than 25, nearly identical workload...and again, without the tail of support costs that go into being military.

Again, if a contractor (who starts with the company that profits from the contract, who often sub-contracts the contract to another company who profits from the original contract, down to the supervisors and employees who often makes more than the military equivalent) can profit from doing the same job and it being cheaper than the military just doing it in the first place...then the military needs to rethink it's requirements and figure out how to do it cheaper itself.

But everything you are spouting is lies that have been told for years....equivalent to the lies in EPR's. The lies justified the creation of these positions so the former military person could move into a cushy civilian government job....seen it multiple times. And like most things government...once it is created it never goes away.

KellyinAvon
04-26-2013, 01:20 AM
Kelly, thank you for posting this is important information. I spent 6 weeks at NCOA trying to explain this to everyone who cared in my class. The NCOA had a small section about manpower but it was very weak in my opinion.

Thanks Dickie, my programming days flash back to me occasionally.

Measure Man
04-26-2013, 01:34 AM
I have seen unit's with civilian UDM's...GS-9/11. Then seen units of equivalent size have SrA for UDM. I have seen a GS-11 perform as a RA and a SrA perform as a RA. There are multiple examples of civilian positions that over paid when compared to seeing what ranks have perform the jobs before.

Again...you are short=sighted, looking only at the paycheck and not all that goes into having that military person there.



All of these things are being funded already so not having an Airman to use them is a waste of money. This things are just the normal cost of doing business; overhead. The civilian only would save money in theory if we got rid of all of these functions, but these functions are required...

Those functions are only required because of the military people. And the size and hours of them are dependent on the number of military personnel.


Civilians are typically former military trained by the military. If we went all civilian (which would defeat the purpose of a military)...eventually we would run out of trained people to choose from.

I'm not advocating going all civilian...just where it makes sense, which is not in every situation. I'm just saying where the job can be done by either, contractors are the cheapest, then civilians, then military.


Again, if a contractor (who starts with the company that profits from the contract, who often sub-contracts the contract to another company who profits from the original contract, down to the supervisors and employees who often makes more than the military equivalent) can profit from doing the same job and it being cheaper than the military just doing it in the first place...then the military needs to rethink it's requirements and figure out how to do it cheaper itself.

No, the military can not just hire a trained military guy off the street and place them into position. Well, I guess you'd have to change a lot of things to do that. Military personnel are grown internally...and that's expensive.


But everything you are spouting is lies that have been told for years....equivalent to the lies in EPR's. The lies justified the creation of these positions so the former military person could move into a cushy civilian government job....seen it multiple times. And like most things government...once it is created it never goes away.

Not at all lies. the savings of contracting out certain functions is well documented. You have the typical "salary only" short-sightedness of a lot of military personnel. I'm a retired chief serving in a similar position as I did active duty, and I can promise you I cost the government less than you as a TSgt.

VFFTSGT
04-26-2013, 03:41 AM
Not at all lies. the savings of contracting out certain functions is well documented. You have the typical "salary only" short-sightedness of a lot of military personnel. I'm a retired chief serving in a similar position as I did active duty, and I can promise you I cost the government less than you as a TSgt.

It was also well documented that WMD's were in Iraq and we were in imminent danger.... It is also well documented in EPR's how much money everyone has save the Air Force over the last 10 years too...

Not short sighted. The DOD budget has done nothing but grown exponentially over the last 10 years with a war on terror used to justify it. One thing that is also common over the last 10 years is the increase use of civilians and contractors.

I could say you are the one being short-sightened. All you are considering is the individual pay and benefits....not the entire contract where there are 100 sub-contractors all making millions off the same contract.

If they saved so much money, why is our budget exploding? And AGAIN, contract companies often sub-contract to other companies who sub-contract to other companies. All this money providing a profit to SEVERAL companies....the military could figure out how to do it cheaper.

But they don't want to; contracting is all about the money...it's the Military Industrial Complex...lobbyist, special interest, corruption, etc.

Measure Man
04-26-2013, 04:28 AM
It was also well documented that WMD's were in Iraq and we were in imminent danger.... It is also well documented in EPR's how much money everyone has save the Air Force over the last 10 years too...

Not short sighted. The DOD budget has done nothing but grown exponentially over the last 10 years with a war on terror used to justify it. One thing that is also common over the last 10 years is the increase use of civilians and contractors.

I could say you are the one being short-sightened. All you are considering is the individual pay and benefits....not the entire contract where there are 100 sub-contractors all making millions off the same contract.

If they saved so much money, why is our budget exploding? And AGAIN, contract companies often sub-contract to other companies who sub-contract to other companies. All this money providing a profit to SEVERAL companies....the military could figure out how to do it cheaper.

But they don't want to; contracting is all about the money...it's the Military Industrial Complex...lobbyist, special interest, corruption, etc.

Look...companies bid competively for the lowest bidder...they only sub-contract for specific reason...either it is cheaper, or the prime contract does not have the expertise.

the profit is minimal...and yes, if the AF is to do it cheaper it would mean paying GIs their salary but not training them, not paying a retirement, not paying bah, no ALS, no BMT, no tech school...not providing all the things that the military must do to maintain a military force.

Seriously...you don't know what you're talking about. It is tough competing for these contracts...you have to cut to the bare bone with no slack. If the military is to perform the function, they do not compete...the manning is 2-3 times higher, plus all the benefits.

But, you know it all..so obviously you are going to go start your own company...build our own training program and train high school graduates to do high tech jobs...feed them, clothes them..etc. Why do you think no private companies do that??

Bunch
04-26-2013, 04:51 AM
I don't know if this happens to anyone else but the point of this thread confuses me. Here we spend the majority of our time complaining about the wrongs of the AF and the DOD as a whole but at the same time many people who often complain a lot and can't wait to retire also want to collect the pension and still be employed by the very organizations they couldn't wait to retire from.

When I retire or separate I be running as far away as possible from anything DoD/military related. And it's not because I hate my job, I actually enjoy it, is because I would like to do work in a different environment, kind of like a fresh start.

CrustySMSgt
04-26-2013, 06:05 AM
For the job that I do as a GS, I replaced 4 active duty military members, an 03, an E7, an E6 and an E4.
4 contractors replaced the other 9 military members where I work.

That's 13 people that the military can use to "do their job" (what they were trained for).

You guys need to stop looking at the "pay" an E3 makes and instead figure the entire package.

It costs money to recruit, train, qualify and transfer military personnel.
It also costs money to cloth, house, feed and provide medical and dental for those military personnel.
When the military member makes rank, gets married or has children it costs more money.

In most cases it's cheaper to have a GS or a contractor do some jobs for the military.

DAMN... 1st post in 5 years! Congrats! lol

The overhead of recruiting, training and all the rest is sunk cost; most of it is spent keeping the machine running with little fluctuation based on numbers. For lower skill position, 50% of Airmen aren't going to serve more than 10 years, so there is no retirement cost.

The annual propoganda sheet that we get every year that says how much we make says (on the low end) that I come in at around $100k a year. We have 5 Booz Allen Hamilton contractors in my branch back home, doing work ranging from SSgt to MSgt-level duties. The lowest paid of them makes $100k a year. I'd gladly take a SSgt who's available to do details, deploy, and not have a contract that says they're out the door at 1700, no matter how much work is left to be done.


Well, generally a GS-11 is not doing SrA work.

But, still for the most part it is cheaper. The cost of a SrA is not just his paycheck...as mentioned before, it's his recruitment, BMT, tech training, his uniforms, his gym, his chow hall, his dorm, his 20-year retirement, his medical, his leave, PCS costs, more training, etc. etc. yes, a cvilian gets SOME of that, but nearly as much. That SrA didn't just show up and start working...he went to BMT, he went to Tech School, ALS maybe, etc.



I've seen far more way over classed than I have getting underpaid. At my HQ we just "inherited" a unit from the NAF. Had 18 people, 10 GIs and 8 GSs. The branch chief was a GS14. They had 2 GS 13s and 5 GS12s. MIlitary side had a MSgt, 2 TSgts, 4 SSgts, and the rest Airmen. The GS12s literally had no job. The MSgt said the hardest thing they ever do is change printer toner. But because they had senority, tehy were allowed to hang out and not do anything. We farmed them out to other divisions, who re-wrote their PDs and put them to work. 4 of the 5 quit or retired. They had been hanging out and milking it for 3-4 years, because no one made them work, they just hid out in a SCIF and did ho knws what all day every day.

Conversely I've got a buddy who retired 6-7 years ago and rolled in to a GS9 job doing what he did as a MSgt. Took on a bunch of additional responsibilities and carries a major NC2 related program in the wing. They work him like a dog and he does a lot on his own because they won't pay him overtime (because he actually loves his job and won't tell them to kiss his ass and walk away when there's work to be done). He's maxed out the GS9 steps but is doing a job at other bases that they have GS12s in. In that same unit they have another person who retired at the same time who they hired to another converted billet (when that was all the rage). She doesn't do shit, has little responsibility, and is in her car before retreat sounds every day. Guess this is just proof that the grass isn't greener on the outside and the slackers are still getting the same paycheck as those busting their ass for the same pay.

VFFTSGT
04-26-2013, 06:07 AM
I don't know if this happens to anyone else but the point of this thread confuses me. Here we spend the majority of our time complaining about the wrongs of the AF and the DOD as a whole but at the same time many people who often complain a lot and can't wait to retire also want to collect the pension and still be employed by the very organizations they couldn't wait to retire from.

When I retire or separate I be running as far away as possible from anything DoD/military related. And it's not because I hate my job, I actually enjoy it, is because I would like to do work in a different environment, kind of like a fresh start.

Ditto.

But most people want to continue on with it because they cannot function outside of it plus the money and benefits are actually pretty good, especially when the majority of one's time is spent inflating bullets making it sound like you saved the world.

Where else can you get paid so much for doing so little?


Look...companies bid competively for the lowest bidder...they only sub-contract for specific reason...either it is cheaper, or the prime contract does not have the expertise.

the profit is minimal...and yes, if the AF is to do it cheaper it would mean paying GIs their salary but not training them, not paying a retirement, not paying bah, no ALS, no BMT, no tech school...not providing all the things that the military must do to maintain a military force.

Seriously...you don't know what you're talking about. It is tough competing for these contracts...you have to cut to the bare bone with no slack. If the military is to perform the function, they do not compete...the manning is 2-3 times higher, plus all the benefits.

But, you know it all..so obviously you are going to go start your own company...build our own training program and train high school graduates to do high tech jobs...feed them, clothes them..etc. Why do you think no private companies do that??

That's why the CEO of Northrop Grumman made $20,966,275 total compensation in 2011...

Lockheed Martin made $20,538,981...

General Dynamics $16,058,080....

SAIC $5,345,055...

Yeah...barely any profit to go around.

CrustySMSgt
04-26-2013, 07:07 AM
That's why the CEO of Northrop Grumman made $20,966,275 total compensation in 2011...

Lockheed Martin made $20,538,981...

General Dynamics $16,058,080....

SAIC $5,345,055...

Yeah...barely any profit to go around.

Not quite so bad a Booz




Key Executive Compensation - - 12,218,920

Salary - - 4,912,500

Restricted Stock Award - - 1,592,663

Non-Equity Compensation - - 1,856,729

Other Compensation - - 3,806,470

Total - - 12,218,920


Ralph Shrader/Chairman of the Board, Chief Executive Officer and President - - 3,106,476


Salary - - 1,162,500

Restricted Stock Award - - 376,887

Non-Equity Compensation - - 439,379

Other Compensation - - 1,117,710

Total - - 3,106,476


Samuel Strickland/Executive Vice President, Chief Financial Officer and Chief Administrative Officer - - 2,660,529


Salary - - 1,050,000

Restricted Stock Award - - 340,425

Securities Options - - 271,125 0

Non-Equity Compensation - - 396,858

Other Compensation - -863,146

Total - - 2,660,529


John Mcconnell/Executive Vice President and Vice Chairman - - 2,337,723


Salary - - 1,050,000

Restricted Stock Award - - 340,425

Non-Equity Compensation - - 396,858

Other Compensation - - 539,982

Total - - 2,337,723


Joseph Mahaffee/Executive Vice President - - - - 2,058,304


Salary - 825,000

Restricted Stock Award - - - - 267,463

Non-Equity Compensation - - - - 311,817

Other Compensation - - - - 644,024

Total - - - - 2,058,304


Francis Henry/Executive Vice President - - - - 2,055,888


Salary - - - - 825,000

Restricted Stock Award - - - - 267,463

Non-Equity Compensation - - - - 311,817

Other Compensation - - - - 641,608

Total - - - - 2,055,888

Rusty Jones
04-26-2013, 12:25 PM
I absolutely agree with you but for a different reason. AD Amn is much cheaper than civilians. There are simply too many GS-10s doing the same job and working next to a SrA. Just convert those positions back to AD Amn and the savings will be immediate.

I doubt it. The take home pay of a two-year SrA (drawing BAH with dependants and BAS) and a GS-10 Step 1 are about the same. However, ALL of the GS-10's income is taxable; and the GS employee is actually required to pay a premium on his or her health insurance - which makes the GS-10 more economically beneficial to the government.

The pay disparity actually lies within the military. A cook gets paid the same as an avionics tech, as long as they're the same rank and time in service.

With GS employees, it doesn't work like that. GS employees are given a paygrade that's commensurate with what private sector employees pay.

So, I could see a civilian doing the job of an avionics SrA being given the paygrade of GS-10. However, a civilian doing the job of a SrA cook might be given the paygrade of WG-4 or 5.

FLAPS
04-26-2013, 12:42 PM
I doubt it. The take home pay of a two-year SrA (drawing BAH with dependants and BAS) and a GS-10 Step 1 are about the same. However, ALL of the GS-10's income is taxable; and the GS employee is actually required to pay a premium on his or her health insurance - which makes the GS-10 more economically beneficial to the government.

The pay disparity actually lies within the military. A cook gets paid the same as an avionics tech, as long as they're the same rank and time in service.

With GS employees, it doesn't work like that. GS employees are given a paygrade that's commensurate with what private sector employees pay.

So, I could see a civilian doing the job of an avionics SrA being given the paygrade of GS-10. However, a civilian doing the job of a SrA cook might be given the paygrade of WG-4 or 5.

I was checking out some GS12 positions. $68,000 for Step 1. 04 pay with non-taxable bah/bas brought in about $107,000 for me last year. My health care was FREE too. Not so much for that GS12. Huge difference in cost to the gov!

Measure Man
04-26-2013, 01:52 PM
That's why the CEO of Northrop Grumman made $20,966,275 total compensation in 2011...

Lockheed Martin made $20,538,981...

General Dynamics $16,058,080....

SAIC $5,345,055...

Yeah...barely any profit to go around.

Completely different thing than the base-level service contracts we're talking about.

But you think the govt. has the ability to design and build aircraft with civil servants and GIs and can do it cheaper than those guys?...h aha ha ha...that's a good one.

CYBERFX1024
04-26-2013, 02:33 PM
It was also well documented that WMD's were in Iraq and we were in imminent danger.... It is also well documented in EPR's how much money everyone has save the Air Force over the last 10 years too...
Not short sighted. The DOD budget has done nothing but grown exponentially over the last 10 years with a war on terror used to justify it. One thing that is also common over the last 10 years is the increase use of civilians and contractors.
I could say you are the one being short-sightened. All you are considering is the individual pay and benefits....not the entire contract where there are 100 sub-contractors all making millions off the same contract.
If they saved so much money, why is our budget exploding? And AGAIN, contract companies often sub-contract to other companies who sub-contract to other companies. All this money providing a profit to SEVERAL companies....the military could figure out how to do it cheaper.
But they don't want to; contracting is all about the money...it's the Military Industrial Complex...lobbyist, special interest, corruption, etc.

WMD's were in Iraq and that is a fact I know from experience.

The DOD budget has exploded as a whole the last 10 years because the DOD has been trying to police the world of terrorism, going to every BFE place in general to root out terrorists. While also bribing the politicians and doing community service projects in that community, so they think we are good guys.

Also the DOD has been placing large amounts of money into projects service wide that have experienced delay after delay, and cost overrun after cost overrun. They are still trying to perfect these projects and make them viable, so that the DOD doesn't lose face to the rest of the government A couple examples of this are the F-35, the EFV (Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle), and the Littoral Combat Ship.
Now the DOD wants to cut the EFV program, and lower the amount of LCS ships due to the costs. Also there is a article going around how the DOD has had to dumb down the tests for F-35 so that it will pass them. Because quite frankly it is to slow and to heavy. I have tried posting this numerous times on here and it keeps being moderate-red.

You are the one being short sighted. Because yes a contracting company makes money when they get awarded a contract. But you know every company that gets that sub-contract gets less money than the original contractor does. That's how the game goes. Also in a contract they have specific requirements that the company MOST follow in order to abide by the obligations of it. If the company or that specific contractor hired by the company does not do what they are supposed to do. Then the contractor can be fired ON THE SPOT, and the company can get reprimanded and lose the contract if it is bad enough.

Yes there is corruption at all levels, and alot of people still try and game the system no matter what. When I was a contractor I saw most contractors go over and beyond what they were supposed to do in making sure the AD was taken care of. While most of the GS just mainly didn't give a crap, they treated AD like crap. But what irks Contractors and GS the same is when the AD component comes and tries to get over by not doing proper paperwork required or try and get a "hookup". It's not just one or two either. It's alot of the AD component tries to do that, then it just becomes frustrating.

Tak
04-26-2013, 03:15 PM
WMD's were in Iraq and that is a fact I know from experience.

The DOD budget has exploded as a whole the last 10 years because the DOD has been trying to police the world of terrorism, going to every BFE place in general to root out terrorists. While also bribing the politicians and doing community service projects in that community, so they think we are good guys.

Also the DOD has been placing large amounts of money into projects service wide that have experienced delay after delay, and cost overrun after cost overrun. They are still trying to perfect these projects and make them viable, so that the DOD doesn't lose face to the rest of the government A couple examples of this are the F-35, the EFV (Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle), and the Littoral Combat Ship.
Now the DOD wants to cut the EFV program, and lower the amount of LCS ships due to the costs. Also there is a article going around how the DOD has had to dumb down the tests for F-35 so that it will pass them. Because quite frankly it is to slow and to heavy. I have tried posting this numerous times on here and it keeps being moderate-red.

You are the one being short sighted. Because yes a contracting company makes money when they get awarded a contract. But you know every company that gets that sub-contract gets less money than the original contractor does. That's how the game goes. Also in a contract they have specific requirements that the company MOST follow in order to abide by the obligations of it. If the company or that specific contractor hired by the company does not do what they are supposed to do. Then the contractor can be fired ON THE SPOT, and the company can get reprimanded and lose the contract if it is bad enough.

Yes there is corruption at all levels, and alot of people still try and game the system no matter what. When I was a contractor I saw most contractors go over and beyond what they were supposed to do in making sure the AD was taken care of. While most of the GS just mainly didn't give a crap, they treated AD like crap. But what irks Contractors and GS the same is when the AD component comes and tries to get over by not doing proper paperwork required or try and get a "hookup". It's not just one or two either. It's alot of the AD component tries to do that, then it just becomes frustrating.

Did you type all that?!?

VFFTSGT
04-26-2013, 04:11 PM
Completely different thing than the base-level service contracts we're talking about.

But you think the govt. has the ability to design and build aircraft with civil servants and GIs and can do it cheaper than those guys?...h aha ha ha...that's a good one.

I didn't say anything about building aircraft. And this is where you are the one being simple minded. Lockheed Martin for example, employees contract workers at bases that do more than just work with Aircraft. Lockheed Martin operates several "base-level" service contracts.

Measure Man
04-26-2013, 04:15 PM
I didn't say anything about building aircraft. And this is where you are the one being simple minded. Lockheed Martin for example, employees contract worker at bases that do more than just work with Aircraft. Lockheed Martin operates several "base-level" service contracts.

I know they do...but that's not where they get their big money.

CYBERFX1024
04-26-2013, 04:55 PM
Did you type all that?!?

Yes I did type it. Luckily it was when I first got into work in the morning and had energy. But I just hate how alot of people hear the word Contractor or even GS, and then think that they make all this money and how AD can do it so much better. While the contractor has to do his work to get paid. The GS has work and some other obligations. The AD has mainly other stuff going on such as PT and formations, then actual work. I know alot of AD who do really good work, but are inundated with other crap. So sometimes the work comes second.

VFFTSGT
04-26-2013, 07:07 PM
Yes I did type it. Luckily it was when I first got into work in the morning and had energy. But I just hate how alot of people hear the word Contractor or even GS, and then think that they make all this money and how AD can do it so much better. While the contractor has to do his work to get paid. The GS has work and some other obligations. The AD has mainly other stuff going on such as PT and formations, then actual work. I know alot of AD who do really good work, but are inundated with other crap. So sometimes the work comes second.

That is the crap we need to get rid of.

And you are right, work is the last thing from many people's mind - the "successful" people in my unit never do any work and the job is the last thing on the commander's mind...actually the job is a distraction...it's not having to explain "red" at staff meeting.

Measure Man
04-26-2013, 07:43 PM
Just one more monkey wrench to throw in the mix:

There are times and places where a contractor shop is unionized and after time they can become very expensive.

They weild a weird bit of power, too. The union negotiates with the company...but the company isn't really negotiating with their own money, they are negotiating with govt. money.

Banned
04-27-2013, 03:12 PM
When I went through TAPS at Wright-Patt they asked the class what their employment goals were after separating/retiring. Out of about 20 people I think 2 had plans to not seek employment at all 2 had plans to find work in the civilian sector and the other 16 were focused on getting a position on the government gravy train. The problem is that no one ever leaves government positions and the people leaving active duty grows every day. There simply are not enough positions for everyone who wants them. If the government was smart they could figure out simple supply and demand and pay less for the positions and people would still take them. That is how you save money with contractors and GS employees. You create a position that pays less.

THAT'S the secret. More and more people are figuring out that the private sector in America sucks balls and your employer will most likely just exploit you, then throw you in the gutter the second you become inconvenient. I'm actually surprised that ANYONE who was in the military would ever have any desire to go work for a company.

VFFTSGT
04-27-2013, 03:51 PM
THAT'S the secret. More and more people are figuring out that the private sector in America sucks balls and your employer will most likely just exploit you, then throw you in the gutter the second you become inconvenient. I'm actually surprised that ANYONE who was in the military would ever have any desire to go work for a company.

Or they figured out how little work they have to do when working for the government to get a big paycheck...

Banned
04-27-2013, 04:15 PM
Or they figured out how little work they have to do when working for the government to get a big paycheck...

If by "big" you mean "enough to actually realistically support yourself without food stamps", then definitely. Most people in the private sector get shit pay, hence why 40% of them are on government assistance.

VFFTSGT
04-27-2013, 05:03 PM
If by "big" you mean "enough to actually realistically support yourself without food stamps", then definitely. Most people in the private sector get shit pay, hence why 40% of them are on government assistance.

With furloughs, we might have some government employees on assistance too.

Furloughing people for political purposes isn't really conducive with an organization that looks out for it's people.

How long you think a system like that will work? Increasing government employment, increasing government assistance...it's all going to implode eventually.

But the cost of living is a direct result of government regulations meaning the government created the problem in the first place.

Banned
04-27-2013, 05:17 PM
With furloughs, we might have some government employees on assistance too.

Furloughing people for political purposes isn't really conducive with an organization that looks out for it's people.

How long you think a system like that will work? Increasing government employment, increasing government assistance...it's all going to implode eventually.

But the cost of living is a direct result of government regulations meaning the government created the problem in the first place.

Its the future. As more and more people become unemployed with increased automation, we will have no choice but to put more people on welfare. It wouldn't surprise me if 80% or 90% of the population was on government assistance within the next 100 years.

sandsjames
04-27-2013, 05:25 PM
If by "big" you mean "enough to actually realistically support yourself without food stamps", then definitely. Most people in the private sector get shit pay, hence why 40% of them are on government assistance.

You forgot about the 47% working for the government who are on food stamps (well, they aren't really "working" for the government, just collecting the checks while having more kids from several different fathers).

VFFTSGT
04-27-2013, 05:28 PM
Its the future. As more and more people become unemployed with increased automation, we will have no choice but to put more people on welfare. It wouldn't surprise me if 80% or 90% of the population was on government assistance within the next 100 years.

And you thing that is a sustainable system?

Banned
04-27-2013, 05:30 PM
And you thing that is a sustainable system?

The only alternative would be to force corporations to hire more people at reasonable wages - but you would probably scream at that idea. Robots are cheaper than people.

VFFTSGT
04-27-2013, 05:52 PM
The only alternative would be to force corporations to hire more people at reasonable wages - but you would probably scream at that idea. Robots are cheaper than people.

Supply and Demand. You have to have a demand for something to supply it. You have to have a demand for goods to hire people to supply them.

Or maybe start with completely overhauling the education system in America that is currently designed to do nothing but create mindless drones.

And you still didn't answer the question...but that is because you know it's not a sustainable system.

Banned
04-27-2013, 05:55 PM
Supply and Demand. You have to have a demand for something to supply it. You have to have a demand for goods to hire people to supply them.

Yes, exactly my point. The demand for human workers will only decrease over time.


Or maybe start with completely overhauling the education system in America that is currently designed to do nothing but create mindless drones.

No amount of education will change this trend, as robots are already proving themselves capable of performing even complex tasks - like eye surgery, writing prescriptions, etc.

And even if that weren't the case - you can't have 300 million eye surgeons or biologists or nuclear physicists. Only a very small percentage of people are actually smart enough to perform those jobs in the first place. The other 95% are just screwed.

VFFTSGT
04-27-2013, 06:00 PM
Yes, exactly my point. The demand for human workers will only decrease over time.

Well, people should stop having so many kids. The world is over populated.



No amount of education will change this trend, as robots are already proving themselves capable of performing even complex tasks - like eye surgery, writing prescriptions, etc.

And even if that weren't the case - you can't have 300 million eye surgeons or biologists or nuclear physicists. Only a very small percentage of people are actually smart enough to perform those jobs in the first place. The other 95% are just screwed.

Everyone is capable of doing anything they put their mind to. People who are "smart" worked hard to get there. People who are not "smart" choose to be ignorant.

Banned
04-27-2013, 06:04 PM
Well, people should stop having so many kids. The world is over populated.

I wish I had a pony too.


Everyone is capable of doing anything they put their mind to. People who are "smart" worked hard to get there. People who are not "smart" choose to be ignorant.

I find it amusing that someone who is always talking about supply and demand has no idea how supply and demand works. Even if every single American was smart enough to be a scientist or an astronaut, they would still be unemployed - because all of those professions are extremely small.

CYBERFX1024
04-27-2013, 06:19 PM
I find it amusing that someone who is always talking about supply and demand has no idea how supply and demand works. Even if every single American was smart enough to be a scientist or an astronaut, they would still be unemployed - because all of those professions are extremely small.

I find it how you can escape from reality and blame everything on corporations and companies. Right now there is a lot of demand for "SKILLED" labor in both stem and in factories. That is the truth. Companies are quite literally advertising for skilled labor but most people aren't qualified enough for the job. It is all due to how high school and college education is right now. For the last 40-50 years we have been pushing people to go to colleges and get a liberal arts degree, all the while we have not pushed technical degrees.
So we have a huge population that has a college degree in bullsh&t and can't get a good job to save their lives. All the while the real companies that are hiring, they are having to get people from overseas to fill there open positions. Yes, to the company it isn't about money because the company has to pay a wage comparable to the US workers in the factory.

Only with in the last 10 years have the government been pushing technical degrees again. But to a lot of people they think that it is beneath them for some reason or another.

VFFTSGT
04-27-2013, 06:20 PM
I wish I had a pony too.



I find it amusing that someone who is always talking about supply and demand has no idea how supply and demand works. Even if every single American was smart enough to be a scientist or an astronaut, they would still be unemployed - because all of those professions are extremely small.

I didn't say everyone should be a scientist or astronaut...I merely stated that everyone has the opportunity to be more successful and smarter than they are. But our system as it currently is, really is designed to keep poor people poor.

If the socialists, liberals, etc were so successful in the early 20th century, we would have less people dependent on the state today...but we have more people dependent on the state and it's still growing.

CYBERFX1024
04-27-2013, 06:24 PM
You forgot about the 47% working for the government who are on food stamps (well, they aren't really "working" for the government, just collecting the checks while having more kids from several different fathers).

You are right there. My ex-wife was doing that to me. She was collecting food stamps and getting child support from me. All the while not getting off her lazy ass to go get a job, but whining to me how she has no money.

But luckily that is over, bc her druggie ass is in jail for possession now.

VFFTSGT
04-27-2013, 06:24 PM
I find it how you can escape from reality and blame everything on corporations and companies. Right now there is a lot of demand for "SKILLED" labor in both stem and in factories. That is the truth. Companies are quite literally advertising for skilled labor but most people aren't qualified enough for the job. It is all due to how high school and college education is right now. For the last 40-50 years we have been pushing people to go to colleges and get a liberal arts degree, all the while we have not pushed technical degrees.
So we have a huge population that has a college degree in bullsh&t and can't get a good job to save their lives. All the while the real companies that are hiring, they are having to get people from overseas to fill there open positions. Yes, to the company it isn't about money because the company has to pay a wage comparable to the US workers in the factory.

Only with in the last 10 years have the government been pushing technical degrees again. But to a lot of people they think that it is beneath them for some reason or another.

You are right...there are thousands upon thousands of jobs available out there right now.

And thousands upon thousands of lazy Americans with a useless degree.

CYBERFX1024
04-27-2013, 06:25 PM
That is the crap we need to get rid of. And you are right, work is the last thing from many people's mind - the "successful" people in my unit never do any work and the job is the last thing on the commander's mind...actually the job is a distraction...it's not having to explain "red" at staff meeting.

That's how it was in my last unit before I got, and it contributed in me making my decision to get out as well. There were some of us who actually cared about job, and got it done in a timely manner. But a large amount of my shop was working only on college while at work. Any time I brought this up I was rebuffed and vilified. While seeing people do EVERYTHING they can do to try and avoid a pcs or deployment. By the way there was only 1 E-3, 2 E-4, and 14 E-5 in my shop.

CYBERFX1024
04-27-2013, 06:30 PM
You are right...there are thousands upon thousands of jobs available out there right now.
And thousands upon thousands of lazy Americans with a useless degree.

That's why I am taking my ass back to school right now while working. I am a Electronic Technician/GS-11, but in order for me to advance or say apply anywhere else. You need to have experience as a Electronic Technician as well as having Networking or Information Security education/experience.

Banned
04-27-2013, 09:00 PM
I find it how you can escape from reality and blame everything on corporations and companies. Right now there is a lot of demand for "SKILLED" labor in both stem and in factories. That is the truth. Companies are quite literally advertising for skilled labor but most people aren't qualified enough for the job. It is all due to how high school and college education is right now. For the last 40-50 years we have been pushing people to go to colleges and get a liberal arts degree, all the while we have not pushed technical degrees.
So we have a huge population that has a college degree in bullsh&t and can't get a good job to save their lives. All the while the real companies that are hiring, they are having to get people from overseas to fill there open positions. Yes, to the company it isn't about money because the company has to pay a wage comparable to the US workers in the factory.

Only with in the last 10 years have the government been pushing technical degrees again. But to a lot of people they think that it is beneath them for some reason or another.

Yes, companies hire a lot of people - they hire a lot of people at low wages, and fire them quickly. Low wages, little or no benefits. That's the capitalist dream right there.

The concept is called "Reserve Army of Labor".

VFFTSGT
04-28-2013, 04:35 AM
Yes, companies hire a lot of people - they hire a lot of people at low wages, and fire them quickly. Low wages, little or no benefits. That's the capitalist dream right there.

The concept is called "Reserve Army of Labor".

Interesting. I cannot think of any of my family members that have been fired from a job in the civilian sector.

They all have some type of benefits too.

The only people I know that have low wages and few benefits are the ones that never moved past the high school level of work...translation...they didn't try. They didn't get a skill or education that led them to being more successful.

CYBERFX1024
04-28-2013, 05:33 AM
Yes, companies hire a lot of people - they hire a lot of people at low wages, and fire them quickly. Low wages, little or no benefits. That's the capitalist dream right there.
The concept is called "Reserve Army of Labor".

You obviously have not been reading or researching what we have put forward to your argument. Companies are trying to hire "SKILLED" labor for stem and factories. That includes good pay and benefits. Hell I was interviewed for a job back in NC this week as a Technician in a factory making $60k with benefits. The point is that jobs ARE out there for people that have the right skill set, not for the everyday guy with a bullsh%t degree from a liberal arts college, or someone working at burger king. But too many people want everything handed to them in this country, and don't want to work for anything. Our country has become one of dependents when it used to be full of performers.

You can spew all your communist crap you want about how capitalism is bad. But it drives the world to do better and creates jobs. All communism has ever done is killed people and starved them to death.
I agree with VFFSGT. The only people I know that make crappy pay with no benefits are the ones that didn't want to push themselves after HS or just went to college to get a degree in basket weaving. Then the college graduate complains that he can't get a good job and now has to pay back his student debt on a Starbucks salary. The HS graduate complains he can't get a good job, but never did anything to work towards anything better, and says how it's all the rich mans fault for keeping him down.

Banned
04-28-2013, 02:10 PM
You obviously have not been reading or researching what we have put forward to your argument. Companies are trying to hire "SKILLED" labor for stem and factories. That includes good pay and benefits. Hell I was interviewed for a job back in NC this week as a Technician in a factory making $60k with benefits. The point is that jobs ARE out there for people that have the right skill set, not for the everyday guy with a bullsh%t degree from a liberal arts college, or someone working at burger king. But too many people want everything handed to them in this country, and don't want to work for anything. Our country has become one of dependents when it used to be full of performers.

You can spew all your communist crap you want about how capitalism is bad. But it drives the world to do better and creates jobs. All communism has ever done is killed people and starved them to death.
I agree with VFFSGT. The only people I know that make crappy pay with no benefits are the ones that didn't want to push themselves after HS or just went to college to get a degree in basket weaving. Then the college graduate complains that he can't get a good job and now has to pay back his student debt on a Starbucks salary. The HS graduate complains he can't get a good job, but never did anything to work towards anything better, and says how it's all the rich mans fault for keeping him down.

Your fear and loyalty to your social masters is touching... but I have one simple question for you.

You fervently and religiously believe in supply and demand, yes?

So if that's the case... why have wages not risen? If you actually believe there is a "shortage in skilled" labor like you claim, doesn't it logically follow that the wages in all of those fields would be skyrocketing?

A great propaganda victory indeed... your social betters have convinced you to hate your own social class, and fear any efforts to improve your life!

sandsjames
04-28-2013, 02:13 PM
Your fear and loyalty to your social masters is touching... but I have one simple question for you.

You fervently and religiously believe in supply and demand, yes?

So if that's the case... why have wages not risen? If you actually believe there is a "shortage in skilled" labor like you claim, doesn't it logically follow that the wages in all of those fields would be skyrocketing?

A great propaganda victory indeed... your social betters have convinced you to hate your own social class, and fear any efforts to improve your life!

Wages have risen. HVAC technicians are at an average of $38k-$60k depending on the region. This is an increase of 22% over the last 5 years. It's also in the top 5 of every single list of job openings around the country. Similar statistics go for Power Plant operators and pretty much every outside equivalent of an AF civil engineering career field (all "skilled labor").

Banned
04-28-2013, 02:19 PM
Interesting. I cannot think of any of my family members that have been fired from a job in the civilian sector.


Then you're a liar. Have a good life.

sandsjames
04-28-2013, 02:26 PM
Interesting. I cannot think of any of my family members that have been fired from a job in the civilian sector.



I know more people who have been "force shaped" from government jobs than I do people who have been fired/laid off from the civilian sector.

sandsjames
04-28-2013, 02:27 PM
Then you're a liar. Have a good life.

Awesome, the old "liar liar pants on fire" argument. What's the matter, Joe, didn't have your herbal tea this morning?

Banned
04-28-2013, 03:04 PM
Awesome, the old "liar liar pants on fire" argument. What's the matter, Joe, didn't have your herbal tea this morning?

I'm actually not a tea or coffee drinker. Though honestly that would probably be healthier for me than pepsi products.

But no - if someone makes a claim that completely outlandish... I'm pulling the BS card. I know plenty of family and friends who have gotten laid off at some point or another (though mostly during the recession) - V isn't being truthful.

Capt Alfredo
04-28-2013, 03:50 PM
I'm actually not a tea or coffee drinker. Though honestly that would probably be healthier for me than pepsi products.

But no - if someone makes a claim that completely outlandish... I'm pulling the BS card. I know plenty of family and friends who have gotten laid off at some point or another (though mostly during the recession) - V isn't being truthful.

I agree with a lot of the things you say, but I don't think VFF is lying. I don't know anyone (family or friends) who have been laid off, either. Maybe that's because my friends are mostly military or government leeches sucking on the government tit and my family is pretty small and is retired or working in a trade that is unaffected by the economy. Am I lying, too?

Tak
04-28-2013, 03:54 PM
I agree with a lot of the things you say, but I don't think VFF is lying. I don't know anyone (family or friends) who have been laid off, either. Maybe that's because my friends are mostly military or government leeches sucking on the government tit and my family is pretty small and is retired or working in a trade that is unaffected by the economy. Am I lying, too?

Probably...

Banned
04-28-2013, 04:23 PM
I agree with a lot of the things you say, but I don't think VFF is lying. I don't know anyone (family or friends) who have been laid off, either. Maybe that's because my friends are mostly military or government leeches sucking on the government tit and my family is pretty small and is retired or working in a trade that is unaffected by the economy. Am I lying, too?

Maybe I was being excessively harsh by saying "liar" - or jumping the gun. But I really find it difficult to believe that there's no somebody in his family who has been laid off at some point or another. I honestly think he's exagurating.

My father's side is white collar, so I can't think of anyone who was laid off (but then again, most of them are assholes, so I've had very little contact with them growing up) - my mother's side is mostly blue collar, and a lot of them have been laid off at least once... especially the older ones.

I know its really hard to be a middle aged blue collar worker - which is the main reason why I find it so infuriating when these military retirees who will never have to worry about a paycheck claim its easy.

VFFTSGT
04-28-2013, 06:32 PM
I know more people who have been "force shaped" from government jobs than I do people who have been fired/laid off from the civilian sector.

Ditto.......


I'm actually not a tea or coffee drinker. Though honestly that would probably be healthier for me than pepsi products.

But no - if someone makes a claim that completely outlandish... I'm pulling the BS card. I know plenty of family and friends who have gotten laid off at some point or another (though mostly during the recession) - V isn't being truthful.

We call that anecdotal evidence.

What one person experiences another may not; it doesn't make my experience or your experience any less true. But our individual experiences are in no way representative of the masses.

But you rarely, if ever have an objective argument and often result to one or more fallacies anytime anyone rebuts any of your outlandish claims.

CYBERFX1024
04-28-2013, 09:33 PM
Your fear and loyalty to your social masters is touching... but I have one simple question for you.
You fervently and religiously believe in supply and demand, yes?
So if that's the case... why have wages not risen? If you actually believe there is a "shortage in skilled" labor like you claim, doesn't it logically follow that the wages in all of those fields would be skyrocketing?
A great propaganda victory indeed... your social betters have convinced you to hate your own social class, and fear any efforts to improve your life!

Like I have said before. Wages have risen for "skilled" labor. Wages are skyrocketing for select industries around the country. My social betters are masters... right. What are you smoking dude? Why don't you get out of Army and go move to China/Cuba/Vietnam? My social betters are people like you who think there ideas are better than anyone elses, and they know what is best for people. Go back to California where that mentality has taken root. Actually you know what. You can have my place here in California, while I go take that $60k job back in NC. I can live a lot better on that money there than I can here in SoCal.

By the way. Wages have RISEN, but the cost of living has risen faster.

Banned
04-28-2013, 11:59 PM
Like I have said before. Wages have risen for "skilled" labor. Wages are skyrocketing for select industries around the country.

Yes, there's always a "select industry" doing well. Is it the same industry that will be successful in 10 or 20 years? Maybe, maybe not. Its a crapshoot.


My social betters are masters... right. What are you smoking dude? Why don't you get out of Army and go move to China/Cuba/Vietnam? My social betters are people like you who think there ideas are better than anyone elses, and they know what is best for people.


And also make about a thousand times more than you or me - and would fire us at the drop of a hat, while giving themselves a multi-million dollar bonus.


Go back to California where that mentality has taken root. Actually you know what. You can have my place here in California, while I go take that $60k job back in NC. I can live a lot better on that money there than I can here in SoCal.

I already live in California. And I'll probably be moving to SoCal soon for a new job - so I'll be more than happy to take you up on that.


By the way. Wages have RISEN, but the cost of living has risen faster.

Yup. Wages for the average Joe have been stagnant for 30+ years.

CYBERFX1024
04-29-2013, 03:36 AM
Yes, there's always a "select industry" doing well. Is it the same industry that will be successful in 10 or 20 years? Maybe, maybe not. Its a crapshoot.
And also make about a thousand times more than you or me - and would fire us at the drop of a hat, while giving themselves a multi-million dollar bonus.
I already live in California. And I'll probably be moving to SoCal soon for a new job - so I'll be more than happy to take you up on that.
Yup. Wages for the average Joe have been stagnant for 30+ years.

I know you live in Southern California already. But you said you had got activated or something that's what you said months ago. But none of us know if our jobs will be here in 20 years. That is the truth. But the key to everything is changing to needs of the market. Just like what I am doing. I am a Electronic Technician. Marine Corps trained and tested, and 2 years as a contractor. Now a days it's not good enough to just be a Electronic Technician. The companies that are hiring are looking for more than that. They want some IT experience as well, that is how the world is moving too. So I am taking my ass back to school to have official IT training and certification to stay relevant in a field that is constantly changing.

The income for people that is stagnant are the ones that have not gone out and stayed relevant education wise

VFFTSGT
04-29-2013, 04:32 AM
Yes, there's always a "select industry" doing well. Is it the same industry that will be successful in 10 or 20 years? Maybe, maybe not. Its a crapshoot.

Your progress you are such a staunch advocate for is why some industries may or may not be there in the future. Progress includes science and technology. Want to stay with the times then you have to be willing to adjust and adapt to that progress.


Yup. Wages for the average Joe have been stagnant for 30+ years.

And where is this proof? You make a lot of claims, yet none are backed by any objective data.

Banned
04-29-2013, 04:44 AM
I know you live in Southern California already. But you said you had got activated or something that's what you said months ago. But none of us know if our jobs will be here in 20 years. That is the truth. But the key to everything is changing to needs of the market. Just like what I am doing. I am a Electronic Technician. Marine Corps trained and tested, and 2 years as a contractor. Now a days it's not good enough to just be a Electronic Technician. The companies that are hiring are looking for more than that. They want some IT experience as well, that is how the world is moving too. So I am taking my ass back to school to have official IT training and certification to stay relevant in a field that is constantly changing.


Well I wasn't *activated* in the normal sense - I have been active duty for the most part, going in and out of schools. I probably won't venture too far out into the civilian world until I've knocked out as many qualifications and MOS identifiers as I can. I have a junior troop getting out next year who has many of the same misconceptions I did when I left the Corps - he's studying for an engineering degree of some sort and is convinced he's going to have a great future in computers - but doesn't understand that the industry moves pretty fast, and in ten years he's going to have to compete with new employees entering the workforce that grew up with a later generation of gadgets and are more familiar with it than he is. He's smart enough to stay in the military and have a good career, but like me he's probably going to have to get out first to realize that... and he's going to have a hell of a time getting back in.

Right now I can happily hop from job to job as I please, because I always have the same employer, and the same healthcare plan, Tricare remote. Not so easy for a civilian, particularly one with a *preexisting condition*, like diabetes or an autistic child.

Though its not clear from these rambling arguments I have here... its not our current brand of capitalism I have an objection to - its this widespread assumption that this is the *final* economic system, that it can't be changed or improved, and that it will be with us forever. That's not economics - that a religion.



The income for people that is stagnant are the ones that have not gone out and stayed relevant education wise

I'll definitely concede that point... however- staying relevant education wise isn't something most people can realistically do - particularly the older they get, and if they have to pay for it themselves. It would be nice if it was like the military, and your MOS became irrelevant, you could simply switch out for free... but not so much for civilians.

Banned
04-29-2013, 04:49 AM
Your progress you are such a staunch advocate for is why some industries may or may not be there in the future. Progress includes science and technology. Want to stay with the times then you have to be willing to adjust and adapt to that progress.

But how do we define progress~ or more importantly who benefits from it. The richest percentile benefits certainly. But not so much the rest of us. If your job slot is replaced by a touch screen, or a mechanical arm - the shareholders of the company benefit, the CEO benefits... but do you~



And where is this proof? You make a lot of claims, yet none are backed by any objective data.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/12/a-giant-statistical-round-up-of-the-income-inequality-crisis-in-16-charts/266074/

VFFTSGT
04-29-2013, 07:12 AM
But how do we define progress~ or more importantly who benefits from it. The richest percentile benefits certainly. But not so much the rest of us. If your job slot is replaced by a touch screen, or a mechanical arm - the shareholders of the company benefit, the CEO benefits... but do you~

If you want to benefit from success, then supply something that is in demand and become successful. Don't hate on the people that provide a supply of something in demand by ignorant people willing to spend all their money on it.

Don't like the big evil banks that have manipulated and abused the system for their gain? Then don't finance your lifestyle with them. Don't like the big evil doctors that take advantage of people by charging outrageous prices? Then don't go see them. Think insurance cost too much? Then don't get it. Don't like cell phone companies ripping you off? Then don't buy their phones and plans. Don't like the big evil corporations? Then take your business elsewhere.

But stop hating on people that you benefit from in some form or fashion, because your money you spend supports all the big evil corporations you hate.

The government in some form and fashion at varying levels are all in bed with these big evil corporations too. So your progress, isn't going to help you...it's only going to further abuse you.

The government has had a war on poverty for over 100 years. It failed. Well, not really...it's real intent was to create a dependent people. There never was a war on poverty; it was just a selling point...it was just propaganda.


http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/12/a-giant-statistical-round-up-of-the-income-inequality-crisis-in-16-charts/266074/

You must not have a clear understanding of objective data.

OBJECTIVE: not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts

The Economic Policy Institute (the source of your quoted stats) is full of personal feelings and the data used is full of interpretations.

CYBERFX1024
04-29-2013, 01:50 PM
If you want to benefit from success, then supply something that is in demand and become successful. Don't hate on the people that provide a supply of something in demand by ignorant people willing to spend all their money on it.
Don't like the big evil banks that have manipulated and abused the system for their gain? Then don't finance your lifestyle with them. Don't like the big evil doctors that take advantage of people by charging outrageous prices? Then don't go see them. Think insurance cost too much? Then don't get it. Don't like cell phone companies ripping you off? Then don't buy their phones and plans. Don't like the big evil corporations? Then take your business elsewhere.
But stop hating on people that you benefit from in some form or fashion, because your money you spend supports all the big evil corporations you hate.
The government in some form and fashion at varying levels are all in bed with these big evil corporations too. So your progress, isn't going to help you...it's only going to further abuse you.
The government has had a war on poverty for over 100 years. It failed. Well, not really...it's real intent was to create a dependent people. There never was a war on poverty; it was just a selling point...it was just propaganda.
You must not have a clear understanding of objective data.
OBJECTIVE: not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts
The Economic Policy Institute (the source of your quoted stats) is full of personal feelings and the data used is full of interpretations.

Ditto.....

But for me the only economic data are the ones from numerous different sources. Because every news site will have different variations or adaptations to how data is released. Only by look at the whole picture can you get a relevancy of it all.

CYBERFX1024
04-29-2013, 02:07 PM
Well I wasn't *activated* in the normal sense - I have been active duty for the most part, going in and out of schools. I probably won't venture too far out into the civilian world until I've knocked out as many qualifications and MOS identifiers as I can. I have a junior troop getting out next year who has many of the same misconceptions I did when I left the Corps - he's studying for an engineering degree of some sort and is convinced he's going to have a great future in computers - but doesn't understand that the industry moves pretty fast, and in ten years he's going to have to compete with new employees entering the workforce that grew up with a later generation of gadgets and are more familiar with it than he is. He's smart enough to stay in the military and have a good career, but like me he's probably going to have to get out first to realize that... and he's going to have a hell of a time getting back in.
Right now I can happily hop from job to job as I please, because I always have the same employer, and the same healthcare plan, Tricare remote. Not so easy for a civilian, particularly one with a *preexisting condition*, like diabetes or an autistic child.
Though its not clear from these rambling arguments I have here... its not our current brand of capitalism I have an objection to - its this widespread assumption that this is the *final* economic system, that it can't be changed or improved, and that it will be with us forever. That's not economics - that a religion.
I'll definitely concede that point... however- staying relevant education wise isn't something most people can realistically do - particularly the older they get, and if they have to pay for it themselves. It would be nice if it was like the military, and your MOS became irrelevant, you could simply switch out for free... but not so much for civilians.

I am not saying this economic systems is perfect or "final". But it is alot better than the Communism/Fascist systems that you and other people advocate constantly. Because those economic systems only really work in our dreams and on paper. Out in the real world they don't have a chance of being what they are supposed to be. Communism on paper sounds absolutely perfect, like a utopia. But in reality it doesn't lead to everyday innovation or desire to do better at all. The only people that Communism helps are the people at the top of the hierarchy, not the everyday Joe at the bottom. It's all about people at the top living off the work of the ones on the bottom and not letting them get ahead. It's like Modern day Slavery. Do you know where the word "slavery came from? It came from the word "slav", or the Slav ethnic group in Eastern Europe.
Capitalism is about people getting ahead. How if you can work towards something then you can get ahead in life.

You need to tell your Joe that if he gets out next year then he needs to start applying at least 6-9 months before Terminal leave. It is rough out here, but if he is willing to relocate. Then he can and will find a job. From what I am seeing, the majority of people that aren't finding jobs are willing to relocate to where the job is. Yes, I understand about mortgages and everything like that. But if you can't get a job to pay the mortgage then why stay there? Short sell and move.

But I have talked to awesome computer programmers here and at my last duty station in Marine Corps. Yes there is a bias against older men and women in that field. Because the thinking is that they aren't up to speed with the current os and code language. I had a friend of mine who was in his late 40's tell me that he has shown up to job interviews. They have seen how old he is and his salt and pepper hair. Then turned him down for the job.

youngsmsgt
04-29-2013, 09:32 PM
I am a GS-11. I am the equivelent in rank to a Capt.

You are an idiot...GS-11s are not equivalent in rank to Capt's...if you were when I was a MSgt I would not have been a supervisor to several GS-11's. You might have access to Officer Lodging ( which means you pay more) or non-existent Officer Clubs as a GS-11 but you are not equivalent to any Officer or Enlisted rank...so enjoy Chief lodging on don't act stupid after all you are a retired Chief don't downplay your intelligence on these forums.

The billet may have been occupied by a Capt before the conversion however several SNCO billets were once Officer billets...we also once had Flight Commanders which for the most part has been deleted...this is no longer Reagan's military force so don't confuse yourself with these lean times by calling yourself a Capt equivalent.

Banned
04-29-2013, 09:43 PM
If you want to benefit from success, then supply something that is in demand and become successful. Don't hate on the people that provide a supply of something in demand by ignorant people willing to spend all their money on it.

Every technological revolution of the past has been bloody, violent, and chaotic. Common sense would suggest that now that we can readily predict the approach of the next one, we should prepare for it, to ease the social reprecussions.


Don't like the big evil banks that have manipulated and abused the system for their gain? Then don't finance your lifestyle with them. Don't like the big evil doctors that take advantage of people by charging outrageous prices? Then don't go see them. Think insurance cost too much? Then don't get it. Don't like cell phone companies ripping you off? Then don't buy their phones and plans. Don't like the big evil corporations? Then take your business elsewhere.

We have to deal with the cards we are dealt, we have to work with the system we have... but we can strive to change it for the better.


But stop hating on people that you benefit from in some form or fashion, because your money you spend supports all the big evil corporations you hate.

Again, we have to work with the system we have - but we can try to change it for the better.


The government in some form and fashion at varying levels are all in bed with these big evil corporations too. So your progress, isn't going to help you...it's only going to further abuse you.

The government you hate and fear is nothing more than a human construct. Like any human construct, it can be used for good or evil. I find it interesting you have no issue with guns - which can be used for good or evil - but hate and fear any attempts to use government to curtail the power of social elite.


The government has had a war on poverty for over 100 years. It failed. Well, not really...it's real intent was to create a dependent people. There never was a war on poverty; it was just a selling point...it was just propaganda.

Your position on this puzzles me. You're against dependency - but you're also against creating jobs.


You must not have a clear understanding of objective data.

OBJECTIVE: not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts

The Economic Policy Institute (the source of your quoted stats) is full of personal feelings and the data used is full of interpretations.

Cute. Now provide an actual response.


I am not saying this economic systems is perfect or "final". But it is alot better than the Communism/Fascist systems that you and other people advocate constantly. Because those economic systems only really work in our dreams and on paper. Out in the real world they don't have a chance of being what they are supposed to be. Communism on paper sounds absolutely perfect, like a utopia. But in reality it doesn't lead to everyday innovation or desire to do better at all. The only people that Communism helps are the people at the top of the hierarchy, not the everyday Joe at the bottom. It's all about people at the top living off the work of the ones on the bottom and not letting them get ahead. It's like Modern day Slavery. Do you know where the word "slavery came from? It came from the word "slav", or the Slav ethnic group in Eastern Europe.
Capitalism is about people getting ahead. How if you can work towards something then you can get ahead in life.

You need to tell your Joe that if he gets out next year then he needs to start applying at least 6-9 months before Terminal leave. It is rough out here, but if he is willing to relocate. Then he can and will find a job. From what I am seeing, the majority of people that aren't finding jobs are willing to relocate to where the job is. Yes, I understand about mortgages and everything like that. But if you can't get a job to pay the mortgage then why stay there? Short sell and move.

But I have talked to awesome computer programmers here and at my last duty station in Marine Corps. Yes there is a bias against older men and women in that field. Because the thinking is that they aren't up to speed with the current os and code language. I had a friend of mine who was in his late 40's tell me that he has shown up to job interviews. They have seen how old he is and his salt and pepper hair. Then turned him down for the job.

All good advice - but I think we have a tendency to label all new ideas as "communism", "socialism", etc etc - whether or not those are actually even remotely relevant. Furthermore, we show a profound ignorance of these systems... I've seen people bandy about terms like "Maoism", "Leninism", "Marxism", even "Islamofascism" - as if they all mean the same thing, when they don't. We can't effectively use the tools available to us if we don't even bother to educate ourselves about their history beyond them being "bad".

VFFTSGT
04-29-2013, 09:47 PM
You are an idiot...GS-11s are not equivalent to Capt's...if you were when I was a MSgt I would not have been a supervisor to several GS-11's. You might have access to Officer Lodging ( which means you pay more) or non-existent Officer Clubs as a GS-11 but you are not equivalent to any Officer or Enlisted...so enjoy Chief lodging on don't act stupid after all you are a retired Chief don't downplay your intelligence on these forums.

BRUWIN, you might break your line on this one; hope you splurged for the heavier string. :fish2



Cute. Now provide an actual response.

Provide a response with objective data and an argument not full of fallacies.

jondstewart
04-30-2013, 02:33 AM
The above comment absolutely makes your point! We're paying someone $26-27 an hour to flip eggs?!? And people actually think that makes sense?!?

Actually, no. The Airmen or temporary contractors do that. Government cooks usually make all the food that requires extensive preparation. Government cooks tend to have an entitlement mentality that keeps them from having to do the more menial cooking on the grill

jondstewart
04-30-2013, 03:00 AM
THAT'S the secret. More and more people are figuring out that the private sector in America sucks balls and your employer will most likely just exploit you, then throw you in the gutter the second you become inconvenient. I'm actually surprised that ANYONE who was in the military would ever have any desire to go work for a company.

I guess I have to say I'm one of the fortunate few. I do work for a private contractor with the 611th on Elmendorf at radar sites all over Alaska and it's a union job as well and requires you to wear a lot of hats. Very uncommon as far as I know. My last job I had was a good one too, but most of the pay came from the overtime of working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for 3-4 weeks on end.

CYBERFX1024
04-30-2013, 04:30 AM
We have to deal with the cards we are dealt, we have to work with the system we have... but we can strive to change it for the better.
Your position on this puzzles me. You're against dependency - but you're also against creating jobs.
All good advice - but I think we have a tendency to label all new ideas as "communism", "socialism", etc etc - whether or not those are actually even remotely relevant. Furthermore, we show a profound ignorance of these systems... I've seen people bandy about terms like "Maoism", "Leninism", "Marxism", even "Islamofascism" - as if they all mean the same thing, when they don't. We can't effectively use the tools available to us if we don't even bother to educate ourselves about their history beyond them being "bad".

I understand that. But quite frankly your ideas about giving away from producers to those who are dependent on food stamps and welfare. I am not going to work my ass off so that people can do nothing and still get paid.
Your idea that all corporations are bad and evil. But the people that do nothing but live on welfare and suck off the government tit are decent people. Yes, I know some people are good people and just need alittle extra help. But the majority do it because they are lazy pos.

Banned
04-30-2013, 05:48 PM
BRUWIN, you might break your line on this one; hope you splurged for the heavier string. :fish2

Provide a response with objective data and an argument not full of fallacies.

Childishly whining about "fallacies" without providing any alternative data or even an explanation is barely even worth me responding to.


I understand that. But quite frankly your ideas about giving away from producers to those who are dependent on food stamps and welfare. I am not going to work my ass off so that people can do nothing and still get paid.
Your idea that all corporations are bad and evil. But the people that do nothing but live on welfare and suck off the government tit are decent people. Yes, I know some people are good people and just need alittle extra help. But the majority do it because they are lazy pos.


On what basis do you consider them "lazy pos"?

VFFTSGT
04-30-2013, 06:07 PM
Childishly whining about "fallacies" without providing any alternative data or even an explanation is barely even worth me responding to.




On what basis do you consider them "lazy pos"?

You are the one that made claims without objective data and facts. Your posts are full of fallacies and you have yet to provide an argument based in reason. As I stated before the data you provide as proof was not objective. The organization the data came from is bias and the data was based on many interpretations of people...far from objective. Your name calling is what is childish.

VFFTSGT
04-30-2013, 06:12 PM
Childishly whining about "fallacies" without providing any alternative data or even an explanation is barely even worth me responding to.




On what basis do you consider them "lazy pos"?

You are the one that made claims without objective data and facts. Your posts are full of fallacies and you have yet to provide an argument based in reason. As I stated before the data you provided as proof was not objective. The organization the data came from is biased and the data was based on many interpretations of people...far from objective. Your name calling is what is childish.

CYBERFX1024
04-30-2013, 08:19 PM
On what basis do you consider them "lazy pos"?

I know alot of people that literally do as next to nothing as possible to get by without working. Just going through the motions and still picking up foodstamps and a welfare check from the government.

I always refer back to my ex-wife. Because she is a big culprit of this. Doing everything she can to not work while getting anything she can for free

Banned
04-30-2013, 08:36 PM
I know alot of people that literally do as next to nothing as possible to get by without working. Just going through the motions and still picking up foodstamps and a welfare check from the government.

I always refer back to my ex-wife. Because she is a big culprit of this. Doing everything she can to not work while getting anything she can for free

Just for clarification - food stamps won't support you, its simply aid for sustenance for low income households.

Welfare and unemployment insurance can support you without working... but both of these programs already have a cap on the number of weeks you would receive payments.

CYBERFX1024
05-03-2013, 12:21 AM
Just for clarification - food stamps won't support you, its simply aid for sustenance for low income households.
Welfare and unemployment insurance can support you without working... but both of these programs already have a cap on the number of weeks you would receive payments.

Do you ever wonder why they put a time limit on Welfare? All you have to do is look at the British system of welfare right now and see how that is, and how it was before they put time limits on it. Because people were literally going through there ENTIRE life without working, and then teaching there welfare babies that it's ok about staying on it and getting free money.

Did I say anything about FOOD STAMPS supporting you? No, I didn't. I was referring that people use food stamps other than what it is intended for. Did you know that people actually buy and sale the money on food stamps? Did you also know that some places also allow you to buy cigarettes and alcohol on food stamps? Because people that abuse the system do all those things.

JD2780
05-03-2013, 01:55 AM
Just for clarification - food stamps won't support you, its simply aid for sustenance for low income households.

Welfare and unemployment insurance can support you without working... but both of these programs already have a cap on the number of weeks you would receive payments.

However, you can use them as a means of income like a bunch of turds in south Florida did. Big round up this week. Sell the stamps and the EBT.

Banned
05-03-2013, 03:01 AM
However, you can use them as a means of income like a bunch of turds in south Florida did. Big round up this week. Sell the stamps and the EBT.

Again - you can't live off food stamps - its at best supplemental income.

And you're right, you can sell your EBT allowance to shady retailers (its illegal, but of course it still happens), but generally get a shitty deal out of it - in Jacksonville NC, the going rate I heard was you'd get about 50% of the cut... so really you're better off just using the EBT money for what it was intended for. I'm not sure who in their right mind would trade it for cash for the 50/50 cut - presumably drug addicts or something.

Banned
05-03-2013, 03:07 AM
Do you ever wonder why they put a time limit on Welfare? All you have to do is look at the British system of welfare right now and see how that is, and how it was before they put time limits on it. Because people were literally going through there ENTIRE life without working, and then teaching there welfare babies that it's ok about staying on it and getting free money.

Yup. Clinton was a swell guy. ;)

On that same note - it is interesting that throughout history, the biggest changes and reforms are made by presidents of the opposite party than what you would think. For example Nixon vastly increasing government role in society. Reagan vastly increasing the deficit. Johnson starting the Vietnam War. Clinton reforming welfare. FDR attacking the separation of church and state.


Did I say anything about FOOD STAMPS supporting you? No, I didn't. I was referring that people use food stamps other than what it is intended for. Did you know that people actually buy and sale the money on food stamps?

Absolutely. There's a black market for EBT benefits.


Did you also know that some places also allow you to buy cigarettes and alcohol on food stamps? Because people that abuse the system do all those things.

I really don't have an issue with that. What makes a case of beer different than a case of soda pop? Or a pack of smokes different than a pack of chewing gum? Whatever gets people through the day.

grimreaper
05-03-2013, 03:13 AM
However, you can use them as a means of income like a bunch of turds in south Florida did. Big round up this week. Sell the stamps and the EBT.

And we have a government that literally doesn't give a shit. In fact, they are promoting it.


Case Worker: Illegal Aliens Got Food Stamps by the “Vanload”
April 30, 2013


For decades the U.S. government has knowingly given illegal immigrants food stamps, according to a former certification case worker who denounced the costly practice back in the 1980s but was essentially ordered to keep a lid on it.

The retired assistant case manager, Craig McNees, was in charge of vetting food-stamp applicants in north Florida and Indiana in the ’80s and says the program was infested with fraud and corruption that was perpetually ignored by management. “Illegals would come in by the vanload and we were told to give them their stuff,” McNees said. “Management knew very well they were illegal. It was so rampant that some employees would tell their illegal relatives to come get food stamps.”

McNees contacted Judicial Watch after reading documents obtained by JW from the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) detailing how the agency is working with the Mexican government to promote participation by illegal aliens in the U.S. food stamp program. The effort includes a Spanish-language flyer provided to the Mexican Embassy by the USDA ensuring that Mexicans in the U.S. don’t need to declare their immigration status to get financial assistance from Uncle Sam.

The documents ignited outrage considering the nation’s food stamp program has exploded under President Obama, who claims there are too many “food insecure households” in America. To correct the problem the administration has spent millions on ad campaigns promoting food stamps and has rewarded states with multi-million-dollar bonuses for signing up recipients. It’s been quite effective because American taxpayers spent an astounding $80.4 billion on the program in 2012 and a record number of people—46 million and growing—get free groceries from Uncle Sam.

The retired case worker who contacted JW says in the three years he worked in a Sarasota food-stamp office, he found more than 500 cases of fraud but management ignored them all instead pushing a yearly quota. “They just said that if we don’t give out as many as last year, we don’t get our money,” McNees said. “It was crazy, like a three-ring circus; like the inmates were running the asylum.”

Decades later it seems little has changed as Obama promotes the program like there’s no tomorrow. In fact, last summer a federal audit revealed that many who don’t qualify for food stamps receive them under a special “broad-based” eligibility program that disregards income and asset requirements. That means American taxpayers are getting stuck with a multi-million-dollar tab to feed hundreds of thousands who can well afford to feed themselves.

Adding insult to injury, last spring the USDA Inspector General revealed that many food-stamp recipients use their welfare benefit to buy drugs, weapons and other contraband from unscrupulous vendors. Some trade food stamps for reduced amounts of cash, the USDA watchdog told Congress, disclosing that the fraud has cost taxpayers nearly $200 million. None of this surprises McNees, who claims he witnessed so much fraud as a food-stamp case worker that he “could write a book.”

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2013/04/case-worker-illegal-aliens-got-food-stamps-by-the-vanload/

Banned
05-03-2013, 03:19 AM
And we have a government that literally doesn't give a shit. In fact, they are promoting it.



http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2013/04/case-worker-illegal-aliens-got-food-stamps-by-the-vanload/

Oh yes, more conspiracy theories from ol' Grim.

Riddle me this Batman - have you ever filled out a Federal or State form for any kind of benefit, earned or unearned, that didn't ask for your social security number? If you're here illegally, you don't have a social security number, and you're not eligible for welfare benefits of any kind.

Enough of the chain email gibberish please. I get enough of that already on my Facebook feed.

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/a-mythical-florida-mom-and-other-false-claims-about-immigrants/

grimreaper
05-03-2013, 03:31 AM
Oh yes, more conspiracy theories from ol' Grim.

Riddle me this Batman - have you ever filled out a Federal or State form for any kind of benefit, earned or unearned, that didn't ask for your social security number? If you're here illegally, you don't have a social security number, and you're not eligible for welfare benefits of any kind.

Enough of the chain email gibberish please. I get enough of that already on my Facebook feed.

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/a-mythical-florida-mom-and-other-false-claims-about-immigrants/

Funny thing is that the cute link you posted has nothing to do with the report I posted.

Surprise, surprise: Census Bureau data reveals that most U.S. families headed by illegal immigrants use taxpayer-funded welfare programs on behalf of their America-born anchor babies. Even before the recession, immigrant households with children used welfare programs at consistently higher rates than natives, according to the extensive census data collected and analyzed by a nonpartisan Washington, D.C., group dedicated to researching legal and illegal immigration in the U.S. The results, published this month in a lengthy report, are hardly surprising. Basically, the majority of households across the country benefiting from publicly-funded welfare programs are headed by immigrants, both legal and illegal. States where immigrant households with children have the highest welfare use rates are Arizona (62 percent); Texas, California and New York with 61 percent each, and Pennsylvania (59 percent).

The study focused on eight major welfare programs that cost the government $517 billion the year they were examined. They include Supplemental Security Income (SSI) for the disabled, Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (TANF), a nutritional program known as Women, Infants and Children (WIC), food stamps, free/reduced school lunch, public housing and health insurance for the poor (Medicaid). Food assistance and Medicaid are the programs most commonly used by illegal immigrants, mainly on behalf of their American-born children who get automatic citizenship.

http://www.cis.org/sites/cis.org/files/articles/2011/immigrant-welfare-use-4-11-t6.jpg

http://cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011

Banned
05-03-2013, 03:38 AM
Funny thing is that the cute link you posted has nothing to do with the report I posted.

Which apparently you didn't bother to read - it debunks the myth that illegal immigrants are eligible for welfare. They're not.


Surprise, surprise: Census Bureau data reveals that most U.S. families headed by illegal immigrants use taxpayer-funded welfare programs on behalf of their America-born anchor babies.

Yes no shit Sherlock. American citizens qualify for welfare. Thank you, Captain Obvious. Nobody was disputing that!

Try again.

CYBERFX1024
05-03-2013, 03:40 AM
Oh yes, more conspiracy theories from ol' Grim.
Riddle me this Batman - have you ever filled out a Federal or State form for any kind of benefit, earned or unearned, that didn't ask for your social security number? If you're here illegally, you don't have a social security number, and you're not eligible for welfare benefits of any kind.
http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/a-mythical-florida-mom-and-other-false-claims-about-immigrants/

Yeah the Federal government requires that to receive benefits from them. But certain state governments do not require that all. Your home state of California is one of them. They give out benefits to Illegals as well as give them free tuition grants. Oh right if they don't give benefits to the Illegals, then they give them to there anchor babies that have social security numbers.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/12429/

grimreaper
05-03-2013, 03:43 AM
Which apparently you didn't bother to read - it debunks the myth that illegal immigrants are eligible for welfare. They're not.



Yes no shit Sherlock. American citizens qualify for welfare. Thank you, Captain Obvious. Nobody was disputing that!

Try again.

So the kid's parents aren't benefiting from these programs? That's your answer? LOL...logic FAIL. Hate to break it to you Joe, but if the illegals weren't here, their kids wouldn't be either, therefore, not collecting benefits from taxpayers. You think the kids are the one's heading to the welfare office to pick up their food stamps and check? If the government is paying to raise YOUR kids, YOU are benefiting.

Joe took an extra dose of idiot pills today apparently.

grimreaper
05-03-2013, 03:44 AM
LOL, WTF?

JD2780
05-03-2013, 10:28 AM
They are eligible for welfare because they go and use fake SSNs with fake IDs. That's how some get away with voting, and getting jobs. I've seen in my last job with landscaping. Had a crew of 5 dudes I was in charge of. 3 were here illegally. I worked with the company for 3 months and quit. In those three months I saw 2 of those 3 people let go for ssn issues that hadn't been picked up for a couple yrs. it is possible for them to benefit from the programs.

Greg
05-03-2013, 11:42 AM
They are eligible for welfare because they go and use fake SSNs with fake IDs. That's how some get away with voting, and getting jobs. I've seen in my last job with landscaping. Had a crew of 5 dudes I was in charge of. 3 were here illegally. I worked with the company for 3 months and quit. In those three months I saw 2 of those 3 people let go for ssn issues that hadn't been picked up for a couple yrs. it is possible for them to benefit from the programs.

'Illegal, but Not Undocumented
Identity Theft, Document Fraud, and Illegal Employment

By Ronald W. Mortensen June 2009

Ronald W. Mortensen, PhD, is a retired career U.S. Foreign Service Officer and former Society for Human Resource Management senior executive.

This Backgrounder examines illegal immigration-related document fraud and identity theft that is committed primarily for the purpose of employment. It debunks three common misconceptions: illegal aliens are “undocumented;” the transgressions committed by illegal aliens to obtain jobs are minor; and illegal-alien document fraud and identity theft are victimless crimes. It discusses how some community leaders rationalize these crimes, contributing to a deterioration of the respect for laws in our nation, and presents a variety of remedies, including more widespread electronic verification of work status (E-Verify and the Social Security Number Verification Service) and immigrant outreach programs to explain the ramifications and risks of document fraud and identity theft.

The findings include:

Illegal immigrants are not “undocumented.” They have fraudulent documents such as counterfeit Social Security cards, forged drivers licenses, fake “green cards,” and phony birth certificates. Experts suggest that approximately 75 percent of working-age illegal aliens use fraudulent Social Security cards to obtain employment.

Most (98 percent) Social Security number (SSN) thieves use their own names with stolen numbers. The federal E-Verify program, now mandated in only 14 states, can detect this fraud. Universal, mandatory use of E-Verify would curb this and stop virtually 100 percent of child identity theft.

Illegal immigration and high levels of identity theft go hand-in-hand. States with the most illegal immigration also have high levels of job-related identity theft. In Arizona, 33 percent or all identity theft is job-related (as opposed to identity theft motivated simply by profit). In Texas it is 27 percent; in New Mexico, 23 percent; in Colorado, 22 percent; California, 20 percent; and in Nevada, 16 percent. Eight of the 10 states with the highest percentage of illegal aliens in their total population are among the top 10 states in identity theft (Arizona, California, Florida, Texas, Nevada, New York, Georgia, and Colorado)."

http://www.cis.org/IdentityTheft

JD2780
05-03-2013, 11:52 AM
With e-verify many companies simply fire the illegal. I guess a couple yrs back my former employer did have INS show up and take a few folks away. Wish I could've been there.

CYBERFX1024
05-03-2013, 02:18 PM
If anybody can read Spanish this is for you. It is from the USDA and tells Illegal immigrants that they can get benefits for there eligible (anchor baby) children, and the USDA won't inquire about the legal status of the parents.

So yes Illegal immigrants can and do get assistance.

http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/25/usdamexico-spanish-language-flyer-get-kids-on-food-stamps-without-showing-documents/

RetC141BFCC
05-03-2013, 02:34 PM
Your fear and loyalty to your social masters is touching... but I have one simple question for you.

You fervently and religiously believe in supply and demand, yes?

So if that's the case... why have wages not risen? If you actually believe there is a "shortage in skilled" labor like you claim, doesn't it logically follow that the wages in all of those fields would be skyrocketing?

A great propaganda victory indeed... your social betters have convinced you to hate your own social class, and fear any efforts to improve your life!

Joe
I am sorry I have to disagree with you. Non skilled wages are not going anywhere but skilled wages are another thing. I am a FAA Licensed Air Frame and Powerplant mechanic. If you are willing to move you can write your own ticket. I was one of the dumb asses who left the AF without and Airframe and Powerplant license. I did have a CCAF degree which believes it or not got me a job at a local Airframe and Powerplant school. There I did the self-study program and received my A+P license and now make 60,000 a year without OT or holiday pay. There are lots of good paying jobs out there but you need to be skilled labor not a liberal arts degree. There is nothing wrong with a two year degree from a technical college.

Banned
05-03-2013, 02:37 PM
LOL, WTF?

Yes... I take it you've noticed that I have a doppleganger. :D

CYBERFX1024
05-03-2013, 03:17 PM
Why aren't my posts showing up?

CYBERFX1024
05-03-2013, 03:22 PM
Why aren't my posts showing up on here?



http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/25/usdamexico-spanish-language-flyer-get-kids-on-food-stamps-without-showing-documents/

CYBERFX1024
05-03-2013, 03:23 PM
Why aren't my posts showing up?

sandsjames
05-03-2013, 03:26 PM
Love the new commercial about undocumented workers and healthcare. Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

Banned
05-03-2013, 03:31 PM
Love the new commercial about undocumented workers and healthcare. Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

http://www.chiefrok.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/yes-let-the-hate-flow-through-you.jpg

CYBERFX1024
05-03-2013, 03:35 PM
I have posted many things on here last night and today with links. But as soon as I put a link in here then it goes through a moderator. What bs is this. Go check out the dailycaller today, it shows where the USDA advocates that Illegal immigrants can receive benefits for their children and not be question about the parents legal status.

http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/25/usdamexico-spanish-language-flyer-get-kids-on-food-stamps-without-showing-documents/

Banned
05-03-2013, 03:37 PM
I have posted many things on here last night and today with links. But as soon as I put a link in here then it goes through a moderator. What bs is this. Go check out the dailycaller today, it shows where the USDA advocates that Illegal immigrants can receive benefits for their children and not be question about the parents legal status.

Post text... "edit" your post and insert the link. That works.

CYBERFX1024
05-03-2013, 03:39 PM
Thanks Joe

VFFTSGT
05-03-2013, 03:39 PM
I have posted many things on here last night and today with links. But as soon as I put a link in here then it goes through a moderator. What bs is this. Go check out the dailycaller today, it shows where the USDA advocates that Illegal immigrants can receive benefits for their children and not be question about the parents legal status.

Make a post without links. Then edit the post to add the links. This has been the way to avoid the moderator approval process that often takes days.