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20+Years
04-23-2013, 08:46 PM
Way to show those Christians! :usa2


The U.S. military ordered soldiers to remove a cross and a steeple from atop a chapel and to board up cross-shaped windows at a remote American forward operating base in Afghanistan.

The removal of Christian symbols from the chapel at Forward Operating Base Orgun-E came after a solider complained — leading American Atheists president David Silverman to send a letter to the Pentagon.

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/army-removes-crosses-steeple-from-chapel.html

CJSmith
04-29-2013, 08:16 AM
Way to show those Christians! :usa2


The U.S. military ordered soldiers to remove a cross and a steeple from atop a chapel and to board up cross-shaped windows at a remote American forward operating base in Afghanistan.

The removal of Christian symbols from the chapel at Forward Operating Base Orgun-E came after a solider complained — leading American Atheists president David Silverman to send a letter to the Pentagon.

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/army-removes-crosses-steeple-from-chapel.html

Hmm, I'll bite. The title doesn't match the article cause there is no mention of AF personnel and this should probably have been put in the Army thread but I digress.

I don't label myself as an atheist, but I guess that's what I would be called cause I don't believe in any higher being. And I don't agree with how atheists use whatever attention grabbing scheme they can to promote their non-belief such as having a church remove a cross. So I didn't agree with this until they made a very good point. Throwing up a cross in a strictly muslim country is asking for a shit storm of problems. I think this is how it should have been approached vs saying "Hey I'm an atheist and that cross offends me." The less we do to draw attention the less chance people will get killed because some nut job got pissed and wants to start a riot.

JD2780
04-29-2013, 10:51 AM
Hmm, I'll bite. The title doesn't match the article cause there is no mention of AF personnel and this should probably have been put in the Army thread but I digress.

I don't label myself as an atheist, but I guess that's what I would be called cause I don't believe in any higher being. And I don't agree with how atheists use whatever attention grabbing scheme they can to promote their non-belief such as having a church remove a cross. So I didn't agree with this until they made a very good point. Throwing up a cross in a strictly muslim country is asking for a shit storm of problems. I think this is how it should have been approached vs saying "Hey I'm an atheist and that cross offends me." The less we do to draw attention the less chance people will get killed because some nut job got pissed and wants to start a riot.

Funny, I thought it was freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. I believe they are infringing on their right to worship now. Interesting.

CrustySMSgt
04-29-2013, 11:46 AM
Funny, I thought it was freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. I believe they are infringing on their right to worship now. Interesting.

You can't worship because there is no steeple or cross on top of the building?

JD2780
04-29-2013, 12:05 PM
You can't worship because there is no steeple or cross on top of the building?

Maybe those folks feel that is the proper way to worship. I don't get offended by Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, or Athiests. I don't ask that manorahs be taken down. People are just crying for attention.

Rusty Jones
04-29-2013, 12:10 PM
I really don't think that it's atheists that are hurt the most by this. The problem is that the same chapels are used by people of all religions - not just Christians.

Now, if they built separate chapels for each religion - say, a separate building for a church, a separate building for a synagogue, and a separate building for a mosque; then that would be one thing. But a multi-use building should not be built for single-use.

technomage1
04-29-2013, 12:11 PM
You can't worship because there is no steeple or cross on top of the building?

Apparently not.

I love the quote in the article from the guy who claims it's an attack an Christianity. It always makes me chuckle when Christian groups get their panties in a knot because they got special treatment or did something they're not supposed to do (be it illegal or against regulations) and they got called on it. NEWS FLASH: Being treated like everyone else is not an "attack on your faith". They'd be screaming their heads off if the chapel had a Buddha statue in it & demanding it be removed from "their" building.

I'm guessing the AF in the thread title came from the MRRF, which has Mikey Weinstein as it's head, who was in the AF.

JD2780
04-29-2013, 12:14 PM
Apparently not.

I love the quote in the article from the guy who claims it's an attack an Christianity. It always makes me chuckle when Christian groups get their panties in a knot because they got special treatment or did something they're not supposed to do (be it illegal or against regulations) and they got called on it. NEWS FLASH: Being treated like everyone else is not an "attack on your faith". They'd be screaming their heads off if the chapel had a Buddha statue in it & demanding it be removed from "their" building.

I'm guessing the AF in the thread title came from the MRRF, which has Mikey Weinstein as it's head, who was in the AF.

They are not being treated like everybody else. They're attacked constantly. People don't generally bitch and moan against Jewish items on display. Don't want to come off as anti Semitic. Look at why it offends him? Because he doesn't believe? Good for you for not believing. I do, so why can't I display it? Because it hurt some little cry babies feelings. Get over it.

CrustySMSgt
04-29-2013, 12:20 PM
They are not being treated like everybody else. They're attacked constantly. People don't generally bitch and moan against Jewish items on display. Don't want to come off as anti Semitic. Look at why it offends him? Because he doesn't believe? Good for you for not believing. I do, so why can't I display it? Because it hurt some little cry babies feelings. Get over it.

Everyone is free to worship how they wish, but if you accomodated everyone, there wouldn't be room for a steeple, a cross, a star, a moon, a buddha, a pentagram or whatever else. Military places of worship are supposed to be non-denominational, so people of all faiths are welcome and can use the facility.

technomage1
04-29-2013, 12:21 PM
They are not being treated like everybody else. They're attacked constantly. People don't generally bitch and moan against Jewish items on display. Don't want to come off as anti Semitic. Look at why it offends him? Because he doesn't believe? Good for you for not believing. I do, so why can't I display it? Because it hurt some little cry babies feelings. Get over it.

Did you read in the article where it's against Army regulations? Does that mean anything to you? And no, I will not "get over" violations of regulations or the constitution. It doesn't matter who is violating it, it's still wrong. Equality, separtation of chruch and state, and removal of preferential treatment is not prosecution.

JD2780
04-29-2013, 12:24 PM
Everyone is free to worship how they wish, but if you accomodated everyone, there wouldn't be room for a steeple, a cross, a star, a moon, a buddha, a pentagram or whatever else. Military places of worship are supposed to be non-denominational, so people of all faiths are welcome and can use the facility.

Yet there are steeples on military chapels. If there were people at that location of the other faiths let them add to it instead of removing other items. I doubt there are many other faiths, maybe a Jew. Who knows. Once again, people are offended by everything these days. Your argument isn't the same as the little whiner in the article. His was I'm offended.

JD2780
04-29-2013, 12:28 PM
Did you read in the article where it's against Army regulations? Does that mean anything to you? And no, I will not "get over" violations of regulations or the constitution. It doesn't matter who is violating it, it's still wrong. Equality, separtation of chruch and state, and removal of preferential treatment is not prosecution.

Ok then lets stop all the violations of the UCMJ. Every time somebody junior to you rolls their eyes boom insubordination. The argument of the kid in the article was, it offends me.

technomage1
04-29-2013, 12:45 PM
Ok then lets stop all the violations of the UCMJ. Every time somebody junior to you rolls their eyes boom insubordination. The argument of the kid in the article was, it offends me.

First, nowhere did I refer to the UCMJ. The chapel was in violation of Army Regulations.

And how to you know what the argument of the complaintant was? It was never stated. You're assuming you know what it is.

TREYSLEDGE
04-29-2013, 12:45 PM
Yet there are steeples on military chapels. If there were people at that location of the other faiths let them add to it instead of removing other items. I doubt there are many other faiths, maybe a Jew. Who knows. Once again, people are offended by everything these days. Your argument isn't the same as the little whiner in the article. His was I'm offended.

Steeples aren't a religous symbol. They are more of a tradition dating back to when the tall steeple helped identify the building's importance and location. Some Temples also have steeples and Mosques have minarets (which not only signal its location but is also used for the call to prayer). Most religions have some sort of tall architectural aspect that identify the building significance.

Yes, most servicemembers are Christian, but I think you assume too much when you doubt there are other faiths, or just a Jew, at this location. Either way the chapel is supposed to be a welcoming place for people of all or no religion where they can go to worship, or find solace or talk to a chaplain about their issues. Putting a religious symbol may deter non-Christians from going to the chapel for the counsel they need. That is very important in a deployed area as I'm sure you can attest.

CrustySMSgt
04-29-2013, 01:42 PM
Yet there are steeples on military chapels. If there were people at that location of the other faiths let them add to it instead of removing other items. I doubt there are many other faiths, maybe a Jew. Who knows. Once again, people are offended by everything these days. Your argument isn't the same as the little whiner in the article. His was I'm offended.

I have no argument... I could give a shit either way. I gree with you that the dude is an attention whore whiner. But on the flip side if someone' got to have a couple piece of wood on top of a building to practicing your faith without pitching a fit, they probably aren't much better.

SomeRandomGuy
04-29-2013, 01:54 PM
Apparently not.

I love the quote in the article from the guy who claims it's an attack an Christianity. It always makes me chuckle when Christian groups get their panties in a knot because they got special treatment or did something they're not supposed to do (be it illegal or against regulations) and they got called on it. NEWS FLASH: Being treated like everyone else is not an "attack on your faith". They'd be screaming their heads off if the chapel had a Buddha statue in it & demanding it be removed from "their" building.

I have to agree with you here. Christians are always talking about how their religion is being "attacked" and "the war on christmas". The funny thing is christians are also the people attacking other groups. Maybe if christians backed off the war on gay marriage people would be ok with them displaying a cross in public. A friend of mine posted this on FB and I think it is very true:

Pastor: Now, according to a few passages in the bible, homosexuality is a sin.
Couple of older males: Amen!
Pastor: Now, wait, I'm not finished.
Pastor: You know what else the bible defines as a sin? Divorce!
---uncomfortable silence---
Pastor: There are countless passages that talk about how divorce is wrong, and that there are consequences to getting a divorce, such as the wife should be stoned. Yet, I witnessed a divorce just this morning. And I gotta tell you, it was heartbreaking, but I definitly didn't attempt to throw rocks at the wife, even though she was the one who filed for divorce. We choose to overlook the consequences of divorce because time has proven they are cruel and inhumane. The bible does not say anything about the consequences of a homosexual lifestyle. Yet, we seem to be spearheading a campaign to ruin the lives of people we do not even know.

20+Years
04-29-2013, 02:23 PM
Actually, I believe the punsihment in the old testament for homesexuality was also stoning. Its been many years since bible study though, so I could be wrong.

In general, I think people need to give up their douchebaggery for no other reason that being a douchebag. I would say I relate closer to Christian than anything, but I could care less what someone else wants to believe. You can build a Wican worship circle in the middle of my FOB, who the hell cares? It doesn't hurt me. Just like a steeple or a cross won't hurt me, or a buddah, allah, or whatever else you want to worship.

My advice, get the F@CK out of other peoples business, and get your ass back to WORK! Obviously there is a need at that FOB for a Chief's patrol looking for uniform violations.

sandsjames
04-29-2013, 02:54 PM
Actually, I believe the punsihment in the old testament for homesexuality was also stoning.


Actually, I think it was tea bagging.

drc100882
04-29-2013, 03:12 PM
Way to show those Christians! :usa2


The U.S. military ordered soldiers to remove a cross and a steeple from atop a chapel and to board up cross-shaped windows at a remote American forward operating base in Afghanistan.

The removal of Christian symbols from the chapel at Forward Operating Base Orgun-E came after a solider complained — leading American Atheists president David Silverman to send a letter to the Pentagon.

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/army-removes-crosses-steeple-from-chapel.html

Way to show those Christians.......what? The chapel was not compliant with Army regulations regarding religious items on display, so technically they should have been taken down anyway... To me, this story has nothing to do with the athiests except that one was the reason this was brought to the Army. But if the chapel was not compliant, an IG could have walked in there and had that stuff taken down right? I'm not exactly sure what the athiests have shown to Christians in this case.

20+Years
04-29-2013, 03:42 PM
Actually, I think it was tea bagging.


That would get you stoned too.

20+Years
04-29-2013, 03:50 PM
To me, this story has nothing to do with the athiests except that one was the reason this was brought to the Army.

Ummm. Ok. It has nothing to do with athiests except an athiest reported it.

drc100882
04-29-2013, 03:55 PM
Ummm. Ok. It has nothing to do with athiests except an athiest reported it.

If an athiest hadn't reported it would your response have been the same?

If an IG had brought this to the attention of the Army, and had the same result, would this have anything to do with athiests? My point was that this isn't a "victory" for athiests... it's just something that needed to happen regardless of who reported it. So I'm still not sure exactly what the athiests have "shown" to Christians in this case.

SENDBILLMONEY
04-29-2013, 04:08 PM
Hmm, I'll bite. The title doesn't match the article cause there is no mention of AF personnel and this should probably have been put in the Army thread but I digress.

I don't label myself as an atheist, but I guess that's what I would be called cause I don't believe in any higher being. And I don't agree with how atheists use whatever attention grabbing scheme they can to promote their non-belief such as having a church remove a cross. So I didn't agree with this until they made a very good point. Throwing up a cross in a strictly muslim country is asking for a shit storm of problems. I think this is how it should have been approached vs saying "Hey I'm an atheist and that cross offends me." The less we do to draw attention the less chance people will get killed because some nut job got pissed and wants to start a riot.

Why portray it as an atheist's "attention grabbing scheme," when it was apparently one or Christians violating regulations? There would have been no opportunity for anyone to cry foul if one had not been committed.

There's plenty of freedom of religion. The problem is that some people want to use the government's time and the government's dime to underwrite their proclamations of faith. Atheists shouldn't be the only people calling out such actions. It would seem to be covered under an oath or affirmation to support and defend the Constitution and bear true faith and allegiance to it. For the officer types, how does one "well and faithfully discharge" their office while violating regulations as above? Someone rating a salute signed off on this or allowed it to happen. Every Army chaplain who entered that building and didn't attempt to correct the violation is guilty of professional dereliction, either by willfully ignoring it or by failing to be conversant with AR 165-1 (Army Chaplain Corps Activities).

technomage1
04-29-2013, 05:16 PM
Atheists shouldn't be the only people calling out such actions.

:clap2 :clap2 :clap2 :clap2

JD2780
04-29-2013, 05:20 PM
:clap2 :clap2 :clap2 :clap2

Because this is America and nobody should ever be offended.

technomage1
04-29-2013, 05:36 PM
Because this is America and nobody should ever be offended.

You're missing the point here. Offense is irrelevant here, unless you're refering to offense at the regulations being willfully flaunted and the inaction of others to do anything about it. As SENDBILLMONEY noted, anybody who saw that, knew it was wrong, and did nothing was violating their oath or affirmation of enlistment or office.

JD2780
04-29-2013, 05:39 PM
You're missing the point here. Offense is irrelevant here, unless you're refering to offense at the regulations being willfully flaunted and the inaction of others to do anything about it. As SENDBILLMONEY noted, anybody who saw that, knew it was wrong, and did nothing was violating their oath or affirmation of enlistment or office.

Another example of picking and choosing regs. Be sure to enforce proper wear of the hat, proper lace boots, hair cuts, proper fit of PT gear. If you're outraged by this than you should be outraged by improper height of socks. If not you're a hypocrite.

sandsjames
04-29-2013, 06:03 PM
Wow. A cross at a church has become offensive. Next thing you know we'll be bitching that food at Burger King is unhealthy...wait...people do that too.

technomage1
04-29-2013, 06:10 PM
Another example of picking and choosing regs. Be sure to enforce proper wear of the hat, proper lace boots, hair cuts, proper fit of PT gear. If you're outraged by this than you should be outraged by improper height of socks. If not you're a hypocrite.

I'm not "outraged" by any of it, so please stop projecting what you think I feel on me. What makes you think I don't correct violations as I see them? I do seek to correct it because thats my job as a SNCO. That doesn't mean I stand people at attention and chew them out for it. But it does mean if I tell my troop he needs a haircut he'd better walk in with it squared away the next day.

I can't speak for the other services but senior E4s and E5s in the AF are expected to do this. If you don't, you're contributing to the weakening of the NCO corps.

JD2780
04-29-2013, 06:15 PM
I'm not "outraged" by any of it, so please stop projecting what you think I feel on me. What makes you think I don't correct violations as I see them? I do seek to correct it because thats my job as a SNCO. That doesn't mean I stand people at attention and chew them out for it. But it does mean if I tell my troop he needs a haircut he'd better walk in with it squared away the next day.

I can't speak for the other services but senior E4s and E5s in the AF are expected to do this. If you don't, you're contributing to the weakening of the NCO corps.

I'm not contributing to the AF at all. I got out of the babysitting service after being told I can't do my job because of a headache. I always corrected uniforms and haircuts. I was labeled as a uniform nazi. I also upheld the same standards for job performance. I for one see plenty of people bitch about things they find offensive and want changed because of regulation yet disregard the other ones. More PC cry baby BS in the military.

20+Years
04-29-2013, 06:20 PM
I don't disagee at all with it being fixed if it was against regulations. However, for example, I am not going to turn in the Wican display blocking the fire exit because I'm a Christian, but because its against regulations. There was no point for the "Atheism" to be brought up in the first place except for taking credit for who eliminated the Christian displays. There is my issue.

technomage1
04-29-2013, 06:29 PM
I don't disagee at all with it being fixed if it was against regulations. However, for example, I am not going to turn in the Wican display blocking the fire exit because I'm a Christian, but because its against regulations. There was no point for the "Atheism" to be brought up in the first place except for taking credit for who eliminated the Christian displays. There is my issue.

I think you're absolutely right. If a Wican display was blocking a fire exit somewhere then anyone should attempt to correct that. The religion - or lack thereof - of people doing the correcting is irrelevant. Really, I think this is projecting. People think Atheists are angry people looking for fights so that's what this guy became.

JD2780
04-29-2013, 06:30 PM
I think you're absolutely right. If a Wican display was blocking a fire exit somewhere then anyone should attempt to correct that. The religion - or lack thereof - of people doing the correcting is irrelevant. Really, I think this is projecting. People think Atheists are angry people looking for fights so that's what this guy became.

Moving from blocking a fire exit vs removing it all together are different.

JD2780
04-29-2013, 06:34 PM
Hispanic heritage month offends me, people speeding on base offends, fat people offend. Better remove those from base. Their are regulations against speeding, and being fat. They need to be removed immediately. Mean while ill work on the the Hispanic, African-American, Polynesian islander months being removed from base. I'm offended.

JD2780
04-29-2013, 06:35 PM
I think you're absolutely right. If a Wican display was blocking a fire exit somewhere then anyone should attempt to correct that. The religion - or lack thereof - of people doing the correcting is irrelevant. Really, I think this is projecting. People think Atheists are angry people looking for fights so that's what this guy became.

Moving from blocking a fire exit vs removing it all together are different.

20+Years
04-29-2013, 06:39 PM
Moving from blocking a fire exit vs removing it all together are different.

I agree. And no matter which action was chosen I would not anounce I was a "Christian", just like "Atheism" should have never been brought up by the originator of the complaint.

technomage1
04-29-2013, 06:56 PM
Moving from blocking a fire exit vs removing it all together are different.

True. If the display was in a chapel permanently it would be violating the regs too and should be removed. If it was there temporarily as part of a Wiccan service then it would be OK as long as it wasn't blocking the fire exit, same as any other user of the facility.

garhkal
04-29-2013, 08:07 PM
Funny, I thought it was freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. I believe they are infringing on their right to worship now. Interesting.

Agreed. So what exactly would the athiests like to see ON a church? Nothing? Have no churches?


I have to agree with you here. Christians are always talking about how their religion is being "attacked" and "the war on christmas". The funny thing is christians are also the people attacking other groups. Maybe if christians backed off the war on gay marriage people would be ok with them displaying a cross in public.

Tell that to the christians being attacked in Syria and Egypt.

Plus why is it just christians the Athiests go after.. Yet to ever hear about athiests suing a Mosque or Jewish temple.

FuelShopTech
04-29-2013, 08:44 PM
*sigh*



Army Regulation 165-1 states:

”The chapel environment will be religiously neutral when the facility is not being used for scheduled worship. Portable religious symbols, icons, or statues may be used within a chapel during times of religious worship.”

“Symbols are to be moved or covered when not in use during services. Distinctive religious symbols, such as crosses, crucifixes, the Star of David, Menorah, and other religious symbols will not be affixed or displayed permanently on the chapel interior, exterior, or grounds. Permanent or fixed chapel furnishings, such as the altar, pulpit, lectern, or communion rail will be devoid of distinctive religious symbols.”

Not difficult to understand and not "anti-Christian."

If the "chapel" in question is, in fact, a government building, on government property, and is intended to be used as a place where people of any faith can worship, then it doesn't need a bunch of Christian symbols permanently plastered all over it. Christian symbols are not the default symbols for "religion" in general.

Golly, how about we just treat all religions equally and not display any particular religious symbols on what supposed to be government property? Simple, huh?

And if you want people to stop complaining about Christian symbols on public property, then stop putting them there.

20+Years
04-29-2013, 09:07 PM
[QUOTE=FuelShopTech;621028] Christian symbols are not the default symbols for "religion" in general.

But for a long time in this country they actually were. You could find a steeple in any town, which religion it represented might be any. It was a sign to look for; worship here. Even our Medical assests are still protected by a Christian symbol. Yes, we put crosses on them. I wonder if someone will find that offensive soon?

technomage1
04-29-2013, 09:12 PM
Agreed. So what exactly would the athiests like to see ON a church? Nothing? Have no churches?



Tell that to the christians being attacked in Syria and Egypt.

Plus why is it just christians the Athiests go after.. Yet to ever hear about athiests suing a Mosque or Jewish temple.

A great deal of that is due to population size. Muslims and Jews comprise 2.1% of the US population. Christians comprise 78.4%. By sheer numbers alone you expect more suits and trouble with Christians. But religious minorities in the US know that the separation of church and state is what keeps them free to worship as they chose. It's not in their interests to break the law, even if they're in a position of power and can do so. People just don't make good legal targets when they're not doing anything illegal.

Atheists have gone after Muslims in other countries when they've acted up. Free Inquiry, for example published the cartoons that got a Danish cartoonist death threats (he's still under police protection). And the ACLU did file suit in Jan 2009 when a Muslim charter school used US taxpayer money to promote religion (the case was settled in 2012). Rest assured, that if Muslims started carving Koran passages into the marble of courthouse entryways, atheists would protest and sue (and probably be stampeded over by the number of Christians suing and/or forming a lynch mob). Or if Jews carved Torah passages.

Non-religious, to include atheists, agnostics, and nothing in particular, are 16.1%, incidentally. Source is the Pew Forum US Religious Landscape Survey.

drc100882
04-29-2013, 09:21 PM
Agreed. So what exactly would the athiests like to see ON a church? Nothing? Have no churches?

I think they'd prefer not having religious symbols that they can see, although their big thing is public land holding those religious items. They hide behind the first amendment without even knowing what it means.

JD2780
04-29-2013, 10:03 PM
Back home I can understand... I question the necessity of having the religious symbols of a certain ideology in your face 24/7 while deployed in a combat zone. In the civilian world, if you don't want to see the symbols of a violent and ruthless tyrannical religion, then you can simply not go there. There is however no way to avoid it on a crammed FOB out in Afghanistan.

I also question the tactical sense of having Christian symbols blatantly visible in an area surrounded by Muslims we're trying to convince to not try to kill us.

Yea they might realize we are there.

FuelShopTech
04-30-2013, 01:42 AM
[QUOTE=FuelShopTech;621028] Christian symbols are not the default symbols for "religion" in general.

But for a long time in this country they actually were. You could find a steeple in any town, which religion it represented might be any. It was a sign to look for; worship here. Even our Medical assests are still protected by a Christian symbol. Yes, we put crosses on them. I wonder if someone will find that offensive soon?

And it obviously isn't the case today.

garhkal
04-30-2013, 04:23 AM
And the ACLU did file suit in Jan 2009 when a Muslim charter school used US taxpayer money to promote religion (the case was settled in 2012).

Never heard of that one (that i can remember)..

Golther
04-30-2013, 01:28 PM
Never heard of that one (that i can remember)..

You wouldn't if you watch Fox.

Filterbing
04-30-2013, 05:23 PM
Peope forget this story about Orthodox Jews in New York telling women on public busse where to sit. Also I think there was something said about how they dressed as well.

http://www.thenewyorkworld.com/2011/10/25/sex-segregation-policy-on-brooklyn-bus-line-to-end-hikind-says/

garhkal
04-30-2013, 10:17 PM
You wouldn't if you watch Fox.

I watch fox, CNN, HLN, and MSNBC.. Not just one (though i much prefer Mr O'reily in that 8pm EST time slot to Mr Cooper or the hack on MSNBC)

Golther
04-30-2013, 11:39 PM
I watch fox, CNN, HLN, and MSNBC.. Not just one (though i much prefer Mr O'reily in that 8pm EST time slot to Mr Cooper or the hack on MSNBC)

Your right. It is unheard of persecute call christians out on douchbaggery on any network in the US.

Imagine this because vBulletin sucks with formatting. strikethrough text

Pullinteeth
05-01-2013, 02:10 AM
Back home I can understand... I question the necessity of having the religious symbols of a certain ideology in your face 24/7 while deployed in a combat zone. In the civilian world, if you don't want to see the symbols of a violent and ruthless tyrannical religion, then you can simply not go there. There is however no way to avoid it on a crammed FOB out in Afghanistan.

I also question the tactical sense of having Christian symbols blatantly visible in an area surrounded by Muslims we're trying to convince to not try to kill us.

So...using that logic, U.S. personnel should destroy mosques wherever they find them? C'mon Joe....you should be better than THAT...

Absinthe Anecdote
05-01-2013, 04:44 PM
The best way to destroy Muslim mosques and Christian churches is through education... once people realize they've been fooled... they'll tear down these institutions of tyranny themselves.

I’ve got to agree with you here but the institution of religion won’t have a dramatic end like that.

It will have to be worn away by a long slow process that will take generations.

The way wind erosion wears down a big rock in the desert.

sandsjames
05-01-2013, 05:06 PM
The best way to destroy Muslim mosques and Christian churches is through education... once people realize they've been fooled... they'll tear down these institutions of tyranny themselves.

The more the attempt at "destroy"ing religion takes place, the more extreme the zealots will become. To insinuate that people are being "fooled" is laughable. Everyone in this discussion is big on "facts" so please state some facts that prove I'm being "fooled".

One thing I can't understand is how anybody (religious or scientific) can argue that religion and science can't, and don't, coexist.

drc100882
05-01-2013, 05:08 PM
The best way to destroy Muslim mosques and Christian churches is through education... once people realize they've been fooled... they'll tear down these institutions of tyranny themselves.

How do you educate people to not have faith in something they believe in? How do you provide the facts and data to prove to someone that their god doesn't exist? For every person that say "there's no proof that God exists" there's another person saying "There's not proof he doesn't".... I think your crusade to convert the world to atheism needs a better plan.

sandsjames
05-01-2013, 10:01 PM
Religion has been correctly described as the opiate of the masses. It teaches the people not just submission to their government... but apathy, and suppresses the desire to push for political reform. It blinds people to the truth.

The world is in a strangle hold by the two current dominant religions - Christianity and Islam. You're right that the zealots in both of these ideologies will fight against change with all their might... but they will lose. Their only weapon is ignorance. If we destroy ignorance, we destroy religion.





Arrogant how you state this as if it's a fact. These facts are like a lot of the other "facts" you bring up when it comes to your social views.

technomage1
05-02-2013, 09:35 AM
You're right... but its fallacy that cannot survive against critical thinking. We don't need to teach kids to be atheists - if we simply teach them real life history, science, and FACT - they will recognize for themselves that all of these ideologies are full of shit... and exist only to exploit and control people.



Religion has been correctly described as the opiate of the masses. It teaches the people not just submission to their government... but apathy, and suppresses the desire to push for political reform. It blinds people to the truth.

The world is in a strangle hold by the two current dominant religions - Christianity and Islam. You're right that the zealots in both of these ideologies will fight against change with all their might... but they will lose. Their only weapon is ignorance. If we destroy ignorance, we destroy religion.



That's a good way to put it!

Teach a man to reason and he'll think for a lifetime.

sandsjames
05-04-2013, 01:45 PM
So true. Too bad teaching a man how to think is considered "liberal" in America.

Real red blooded Americans think exactly what they are told do, never question what they were taught, and mindlessly follow doctrine. ;)

It's not "teaching a man how to think" that is considered "liberal". It's that fact that it's only considered thinking if it's thinking about why religion and the views of religion are wrong. Believe it or not one can critically think about religious doctrine.

garhkal
05-04-2013, 06:16 PM
Real red blooded Americans think exactly what they are told do, never question what they were taught, and mindlessly follow doctrine. ;)

We are the borg, resistance is futile. You will be assimilated:thumb

Golther
05-04-2013, 09:42 PM
So true. Too bad teaching a man how to think is considered "liberal" in America.

Real red blooded Americans think exactly what they are told do, never question what they were taught, and mindlessly follow doctrine. ;)


I wonder why being called a Liberal is considered a dirty word? What about Libertarian? Oh wait...Many Republicans are trying to hijack that label to seem "cool" can "hip" now because a lot of thier ideas suck. Remember I said a lot not "all" before you attack me.

sandsjames
05-04-2013, 10:26 PM
I wonder why being called a Liberal is considered a dirty word? What about Libertarian? Oh wait...Many Republicans are trying to hijack that label to seem "cool" can "hip" now because a lot of thier ideas suck. Remember I said a lot not "all" before you attack me.

Liberals are a good thing. However, many who now call themselves liberals are actually just more anti-conservative than they are liberal. They don't have views of their own they support. They just have views of others they oppose.

Golther
05-04-2013, 10:36 PM
Liberals are a good thing. However, many who now call themselves liberals are actually just more anti-conservative than they are liberal. They don't have views of their own they support. They just have views of others they oppose.

True. I think a "true" liberal would support as many individual freedoms as possible, instead anti-conservatism when it come to things like gun control.

RobotChicken
05-09-2013, 03:53 AM
:hat All that 'AF power' over there and they took down our chapel without firing a shot???:sad

Tak
05-09-2013, 04:04 AM
:hat All that 'AF power' over there and they took down our chapel without firing a shot???:sad

he shoots he scores
http://www.tv-eh.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/airfarce.jpg

RobotChicken
05-09-2013, 04:29 AM
:lock1 That says it alllllllll......................:whip

Tak
05-09-2013, 03:29 PM
http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/proselytizing.asp

sandsjames
05-09-2013, 03:37 PM
Yup. Not allowing commanders to shove religion down their subordinates' throats. Horrible.

And it happens on a daily basis, too. As a matter of fact...wait...hold on...I gotta run...my commander is here to baptise me. He said if I don't do it I'll never get my next stripe.

Tak
05-09-2013, 03:42 PM
Yup. Not allowing commanders to shove religion down their subordinates' throats. Horrible.

Subordinate phrase is stricken, chain of command flattened.

SomeRandomGuy
05-09-2013, 03:50 PM
And it happens on a daily basis, too. As a matter of fact...wait...hold on...I gotta run...my commander is here to baptise me. He said if I don't do it I'll never get my next stripe.

My commander baptised me. It was 1630 on a friday afternoon. He declared an impromptu beer call at the local bar off base. Of course I was not required to go but everyone else in the section was. When I got there everyone ordered a beer so I followed suit even though I could have ordered a water. The commander picked up the entire tab. We had so many drinks that I am almost sure it counts as a baptism. We did forget to say a prayer before the event started but I do not think anyone was offended.

sandsjames
05-09-2013, 04:00 PM
Then you should have no objection to this policy.

I'm all for policy that prohibits people from trying to convert/indoctrinate someone into a religion. I'm completely against any policy that prohibits me from openly discussing any of my views.

Rusty Jones
05-09-2013, 04:30 PM
I'm all for policy that prohibits people from trying to convert/indoctrinate someone into a religion. I'm completely against any policy that prohibits me from openly discussing any of my views.

Sounds pretty self-contradictory to me.

I think atheists start talking about how there is no god in the workplace. I bet Christians will be far more offended at what we say than vice versa.

Tak
05-09-2013, 04:36 PM
Sounds pretty self-contradictory to me.

I think atheists start talking about how there is no god in the workplace. I bet Christians will be far more offended at what we say than vice versa.

Fun changing avatars Hugh.

JD2780
05-09-2013, 04:44 PM
I believe in a magic sky man who lives up in the clouds. He hates homosexuals and women. He hates porn, and has mandated that no one who is unmarried or under the age of 37 be allowed to see a female nipple - including the females themselves. However, he has no problem with kids seeing people get blown up on TV - in fact it is patriotic for them to do so. He hates racial minorities and anyone who speaks Spanish. He's a stern teacher, however he loves and cherishes us... unless we don't worship him, then he sends you to the bowels of hell for all eternity.

Yup, making JB making stuff up. He doesn't hate homosexuals actually.

JD2780
05-09-2013, 04:50 PM
I believe in a magic sky man who lives up in the clouds. He hates homosexuals and women. He hates porn, and has mandated that no one who is unmarried or under the age of 37 be allowed to see a female nipple - including the females themselves. However, he has no problem with kids seeing people get blown up on TV - in fact it is patriotic for them to do so. He hates racial minorities and anyone who speaks Spanish. He's a stern teacher, however he loves and cherishes us... unless we don't worship him, then he sends you to the bowels of hell for all eternity.

Yup, making JB making stuff up. He doesn't hate homosexuals actually.

sandsjames
05-09-2013, 05:59 PM
If you don't believe in the magic sky man, you have no place to tell a believer what magic sky man does/doesn't hate.

I didn't think it could be done, but you've done it. You've actually taken over for PYB AND Willspowers at the same time. Great job.

JD2780
05-09-2013, 06:33 PM
Yea, JB you made up the act that God hates gays, and doesnt want people to see naked bodies, women not being allowed to see nipples. Simple lies by JB. Show me the reference in the good book where it says that stuff.

drc100882
05-09-2013, 07:02 PM
I believe in a magic sky man who lives up in the clouds. He hates homosexuals and women. He hates porn, and has mandated that no one who is unmarried or under the age of 37 be allowed to see a female nipple - including the females themselves. However, he has no problem with kids seeing people get blown up on TV - in fact it is patriotic for them to do so. He hates racial minorities and anyone who speaks Spanish. He's a stern teacher, however he loves and cherishes us... unless we don't worship him, then he sends you to the bowels of hell for all eternity.

You continually remind us of how silly and stupid people are for actually believing there is a god, how religion is dangerous and hurts children, and how ALL Christians hate gays. I'm not kidnapping kids and entering them into a cult. I'm not recruiting if I say God bless you after a sneeze, nor am I trying to convert you if there's an interesting discussion about religion going on in my office any more than I'm trying to convert a democrat into a republican if there's an interesting discussion about politics in my office. We ALL know that you think religion is bad and dangerous and that you must save the children from it (irony?) but seriously. If you think God isn't real, WHY be so defensive, threatened or offended by Christians? I'm talking about right now, in today's world - what is so threatening to you, personally, about a person having any kind of faith in something? If your kid comes home and says some other kid talked to them about the Bible, is it not reasonable to have a mature conversation about what they think about it instead of just saying, well it's all made up and dangerous? You can't seem to have a conversation on here with someone about religion without referring back to the dangers and stupidity of religion or insulting them. I would think that your own personal experience with religion would be excellent proof that just because a child is taught something doesn't mean that child will grow up believing it, therefore, isn't brainwashed into the "cult".

You don't believe in God. We get it. But Christians don't want to be shut up just as much as you don't.

20+Years
05-09-2013, 07:29 PM
Thats ok. I believe in the vastness of space and time two rocks hit each other forming a perfectly balanced solar system and that on one of those planets (but only one) dinosaurs and other life grew from nothing and some cell beat all odds and eventually transformed into a man with a complex brain, endocrine system, ect... who has developed so far he can now visit other worlds. Wow, that sounds like a fairy tale.

SomeRandomGuy
05-09-2013, 07:34 PM
Thats ok. I believe in the vastness of space and time two rocks hit each other forming a perfectly balanced solar system and that on one of those planets (but only one) dinosaurs and other life grew from nothing and some cell beat all odds and eventually transformed into a man with a complex brain, endocrine system, ect... who has developed so far he can now visit other worlds. Wow, that sounds like a fairy tale.

Personally, I prefer my theory. The earth and entire universe we are in is actually a giant snow globe. The big man upstairs that so many people refer to is actually just some bratty kid who lives in the real world. He treats his snow globe sort of like an ant farm. Every now and then just for the hell of it he shakes it up and causes natural disasters. He also gets a kick out of messing with the chemicals in the globe every now and then which causes some inside the globe to think they may be doing something to effect the enviroment.

Tak
05-09-2013, 07:35 PM
zjdfklsajdklsajdklasjd

20+Years
05-09-2013, 07:37 PM
Aka... global warming: he set the snow globe too close to the heater?

Has possibilities... makes more sense than Joe anyways...

Tak
05-09-2013, 07:41 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Tg2NDh71eis/TDjpGn3Co3I/AAAAAAAAAJk/kWPxenNbmWQ/s1600/Altered-States.jpg

http://media.nola.com/entertainment_impact_tvfilm/photo/0603-peter-fonda-and-easy-riderjpg-b0f5351afb0a53df_medium.jpg

SomeRandomGuy
05-09-2013, 08:11 PM
Aka... global warming: he set the snow globe too close to the heater?

Has possibilities... makes more sense than Joe anyways...

My theory cannot even be disproven. If you try to say it would be impossible to create something this complex I just explain that the scientists on the outside are much more advanced than we are. If you try to say God is the person on the outside that is fine too.

20+Years
05-09-2013, 08:27 PM
As I see it now... a place of worship with no symbols on the outside is for Atheists. That offends ME! If I see any, I will have to lodge a complaint about the Atheist nonmarked place of worship.

WCS
05-10-2013, 07:34 AM
PSALMS CHAPTER 14

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 ¶ To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Rusty Jones
05-10-2013, 10:54 AM
PSALMS CHAPTER 14

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 ¶ To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Funny, because in terms of IQ and other cognitive tests, atheists are shown to be more intelligent than theists.

"The more learned and witty you bee, the more fit to act for Satan will you bee."
~John Cotton

TJMAC77SP
05-10-2013, 10:57 AM
The only religious symbols that should be permitted in the military are those of the magic sky man. If you oppose this, that means you are prejudiced against believers of the magic sky man and therefore a hypocrite. Before each military ceremony magic sky man's chosen shaman will step out and ceremonially slaughter a virgin goat.

You are not required to bow your head during the sacrifice (though if you don't, you will burn in hell). If you object to this ceremony taking place in a military setting, you hate magic sky man, and therefore a hypocrite, and probably a communist.

Joe,

I realize you are being humorous and think you are making a point and you are but it isn't the one you perceive.

Your sky man scenario as presented (being the ONLY symbology of that deity should be displayed and no others) is not the reality being discussed here but rather the banning of ALL religious symbology.

Secondly, not accepting the rights of others to believe or not believe in religion as they see fit is by definition, intolerance (which paradoxically is what you accuse religious people of universally). That by extension IS hypocrisy.

You want to point out the intolerance of the way SOME choose to practice their religion, fine. Do so with specifics. To condemn all who practice any religion (although in practice you ONLY mention Christianity) is nothing short of stereotyping (which is intellectually weak).

Rusty Jones
05-10-2013, 10:58 AM
Thats ok. I believe in the vastness of space and time two rocks hit each other forming a perfectly balanced solar system and that on one of those planets (but only one) dinosaurs and other life grew from nothing and some cell beat all odds and eventually transformed into a man with a complex brain, endocrine system, ect... who has developed so far he can now visit other worlds. Wow, that sounds like a fairy tale.

"Another area of fuzzy thinking out there is the movement called Intelligent Design. It asserts that somethings are too marvelous or too intricate to explain. The contention is that these things defy common scientific accounts for cause and effect, and so they’re ascribed to an intelligent, purposeful designer.

[...]

So let’s start a movement called Stupid Design, and we’ll see where that takes us. For example, what’s going on with your appendix? It’s much better at killing you than it is at anything else. That’s definitely a stupid design. What about your pinky toenail? You can barely put nail polish on it; there’s no real estate there. how about bad breath, or the fact that you breathe and drink through the same hole in your body, causing some fraction of us to choke to death every year? And here’s my last one. Ready?

Down there
between our legs,
it’s like an entertainment complex system
in the middle of a sewage system.

Who designed that?”

~Neil DeGrasse Tyson

"Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurances it cannot understand."

~Karl Marx

SENDBILLMONEY
05-10-2013, 11:38 AM
Joe,

I realize you are being humorous and think you are making a point and you are but it isn't the one you perceive.

Your sky man scenario as presented (being the ONLY symbology of that deity should be displayed and no others) is not the reality being discussed here but rather the banning of ALL religious symbology.

Secondly, not accepting the rights of others to believe or not believe in religion as they see fit is by definition, intolerance (which paradoxically is what you accuse religious people of universally). That by extension IS hypocrisy.

You want to point out the intolerance of the way SOME choose to practice their religion, fine. Do so with specifics. To condemn all who practice any religion (although in practice you ONLY mention Christianity) is nothing short of stereotyping (which is intellectually weak).

Who isn't accepting "...the rights of people to believe or not believe in religion as they see fit..."? Atheists in general, or just Joe?

I don't care what people believe, I only care what they do. As long as people don't use the government's time or the government's dime or government authority/position to push their personal beliefs or the lack of same, I'm fine. That's not religious muzzling by government. It's a policy against allowing the government to be made a megaphone for someone's religious beliefs.

FWIW, it would be just as wrong to send out emails from a .mil account with "There is no God" in the signature block as it is for people to append religious verses or citations in theirs. It would be just as wrong for a commander to say "there is no God" at staff meetings as it is to call for a prayer. It would be just as wrong for an SNCO to chastise an Airman for bowing his head in prayer as it would be for the SNCO to chastise the Airman for not bowing his head in prayer. It would be just as wrong for a TSgt to tell a SSgt "you have a duty as an NCO not to attend the Christmas party" as it is to tell him he has a duty to attend.

My personal experience includes examples of all of the above. Religious verses, prayer at mandatory formation, bow your head, attend the Christmas party or you're not fulfilling your NCO duties. It doesn't matter to me whether the belief being pushed is belief in a particular deity or in none at all.

Tak
05-10-2013, 01:59 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/07/health/lifes-work-de-waal/index.html?hpt=hp_bn17

meatbringer
05-10-2013, 02:29 PM
So who is God's dad?

Tak
05-10-2013, 02:32 PM
So who is God's dad?

Joe B of course

meatbringer
05-10-2013, 02:34 PM
Joe B of course

And his dad?

Tak
05-10-2013, 02:35 PM
And his dad?

PickYourBattles

FuelShopTech
05-10-2013, 02:36 PM
I love how this forum goes to chatting about shaving pubes in one thread, to debating theology in another thread.

I won't be joining in as I don't give a flying crap if people believe in God/unicorns/Santa Claus/Whatever, and I have no particular wish to "convert" anyone.

May the Flying Spaghetti Monster touch you all with his Noodly Appendage. Merry Festivus.

Tak
05-10-2013, 02:43 PM
I love how this forum goes to chatting about shaving pubes in one thread, to debating theology in another thread.

I won't be joining in as I don't give a flying crap if people believe in God/unicorns/Santa Claus/Whatever, and I have no particular wish to "convert" anyone.

May the Flying Spaghetti Monster touch you all with his Noodly Appendage. Merry Festivus.

Your loss, just about to post nudy photos in here

sandsjames
05-10-2013, 02:46 PM
I love how this forum goes to chatting about shaving pubes in one thread, to debating theology in another thread.

I won't be joining in as I don't give a flying crap if people believe in God/unicorns/Santa Claus/Whatever, and I have no particular wish to "convert" anyone.



And this is what gets so annoying...the comparison you make here. And to not see it as offensive. That's like me saying "I don't give a crap if people are homosexuals/into bestiality/bang leprechauns..." You are taking a valid belief/view/feeling and throwing it into a ridiculous category where a real comparison can't even be made...

Golther
05-10-2013, 02:57 PM
I love how this forum goes to chatting about shaving pubes in one thread, to debating theology in another thread.

I won't be joining in as I don't give a flying crap if people believe in God/unicorns/Santa Claus/Whatever, and I have no particular wish to "convert" anyone.

May the Flying Spaghetti Monster touch you all with his Noodly Appendage. Merry Festivus.

R'Amen. Now it it long enough.

FuelShopTech
05-10-2013, 02:57 PM
And this is what gets so annoying...the comparison you make here. And to not see it as offensive. That's like me saying "I don't give a crap if people are homosexuals/into bestiality/bang leprechauns..." You are taking a valid belief/view/feeling and throwing it into a ridiculous category where a real comparison can't even be made...

Like it or not, there's about as much justification for believing in "God" as there is for believing in unicorns.

You're not being comfortable with the comparison doesn't make it any less valid.

sandsjames
05-10-2013, 03:05 PM
Like it or not, there's about as much justification for believing in "God" as there is for believing in unicorns.

You're not being comfortable with the comparison doesn't make it any less valid.

Cool, as long as we can agree that homosexuals are just as much deviants as pedophyles.

sandsjames
05-10-2013, 03:07 PM
You can’t prove to me that leprechauns don’t exist, so I’m going to believe in them.

Seriously, why is belief in the god of Abraham any different than belief in Zeus or Thor?

It's not...but the difference of the belief in God and unicorns/Santa Clause is pretty obvious and is ONLY used because it is derogatory towards believers in "the god of Abraham".

FuelShopTech
05-10-2013, 03:08 PM
Cool, as long as we can agree that homosexuals are just as much deviants as pedophyles.

That depends on what basis you're comparing homosexuals and pedophiles.

I'm comparing "God" and "unicorns" on the evidence for their existence.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-10-2013, 03:09 PM
You can’t prove to me that leprechauns don’t exist, so I’m going to believe in them.

Seriously, why is belief in the god of Abraham any different than belief in Zeus or Thor?

Tak
05-10-2013, 03:14 PM
Reminds me of movie contact...Jodi foster, scientist non believer...asked if she loved her dad,
Then to prove it. It's like wind, can't see it but you know its there and can see affect it has.

sandsjames
05-10-2013, 03:22 PM
I read this book that is a few thousand years old, and it says leprechauns are real. Besides, how would you explain the existence of life if leprechauns weren't real?

Why are people so intent on disproving religious beliefs? I just don't get it. What is the gain? It amazes me that those who claim to be the most "tolerant" and "open-minded" people are, in fact, the exact opposite.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-10-2013, 03:22 PM
Reminds me of movie contact...Jodi foster, scientist non believer...asked if she loved her dad,
Then to prove it. It's like wind, can't see it but you know its there and can see affect it has.

Yeah, but the difference is that there is plenty of evidence that a person has a Dad.

Not much evidence for Zeus, Thor, Apollo, Mithras, or the god of Abraham.

FuelShopTech
05-10-2013, 03:24 PM
Reminds me of movie contact...Jodi foster, scientist non believer...asked if she loved her dad,
Then to prove it. It's like wind, can't see it but you know its there and can see affect it has.

"Love" is caused by chemicals and hormones in the brain.

We may not be able to "see" wind, but wind has properties that we can objectively measure and predict. "God" does not.

meatbringer
05-10-2013, 03:25 PM
You can’t prove to me that leprechauns don’t exist, so I’m going to believe in them.

Seriously, why is belief in the god of Abraham any different than belief in Zeus or Thor?

I read this book that is a few thousand years old, and it says leprechauns are real. Besides, how would you explain the existence of life if leprechauns weren't real?

sandsjames
05-10-2013, 03:25 PM
We may not be able to "see" wind, but wind has properties that we can objectively measure and predict. "God" does not. So closed-minded.

sandsjames
05-10-2013, 03:26 PM
Better laws.

How so? Do you think that if proof came out tomorrow that there was no god that everyone who currently believes would all the sudden support the things we are currently against? You honestly think we would scrap our current morals? Wow.

Tak
05-10-2013, 03:27 PM
"Love" is caused by chemicals and hormones in the brain.

We may not be able to "see" wind, but wind has properties that we can objectively measure and predict. "God" does not.

Show me a love study or pill for love.

sandsjames
05-10-2013, 03:29 PM
"Love" is caused by chemicals and hormones in the brain.

We may not be able to "see" wind, but wind has properties that we can objectively measure and predict. "God" does not.

So what do you gain by trying to "prove" to me that there isn't a God? What's the prize?

sandsjames
05-10-2013, 03:29 PM
Yeah, but the difference is that there is plenty of evidence that a person has a Dad.

Not much evidence for Zeus, Thor, Apollo, Mithras, or the god of Abraham.

Wouldn't leave much room for faith if there was a lot of evidence, would it?

Tak
05-10-2013, 03:30 PM
http://youtu.be/GreOBIloGwQ

Tak
05-10-2013, 03:36 PM
http://youtu.be/nda_OSWeyn8

Absinthe Anecdote
05-10-2013, 03:38 PM
Wouldn't leave much room for faith if there was a lot of evidence, would it?

Then why did the people in the bible get to talk to him all the time?

He used to appear to them fairly often.

Did the Burning Bush make Moses any less faithful?

SomeRandomGuy
05-10-2013, 03:39 PM
Please tell me, though, which laws would be "better"?

Off the top of my head, Why can't I buy beer on sundays in certain places?

SomeRandomGuy
05-10-2013, 03:39 PM
Better laws.

I see where you are going with this but I think maybe you should have explained. If tomorrow it was proven that no god exists what would change? There are certainly some laws that would change while others probably would not. People who are currently against abortion would still be against it based on the fact that it is murder. Gay rights would no longer be an issue but other non-traditional unions would also want equal protection. Restrictive laws against gambling, alcohol and certain drugs would probably go away.

So I see what you are saying but not all things that christians believe in would change if you could prove god does not exist.

sandsjames
05-10-2013, 03:40 PM
No, not all of sudden...and not everyone. We don't need "everyone all of sudden"...a slight move over time still would be good.

Do you honestly think that it would have no effect? none at all? Everyone would be exactly the same without their God?

We wouldn't be exactly the same. But I don't know how big a difference it would make. As you said, it would be a slight move over time (and I don't think it would be "good" but that's beside the point). That slight move over time is happening anyway.

Please tell me, though, which laws would be "better"?

sandsjames
05-10-2013, 03:42 PM
Then why did the people in the bible get to talk to him all the time? I wouldn't say "all the time" and I wouldn't say it was a lot of people.


He used to appear to them fairly often.

Did the Burning Bush make Moses any less faithful?He appeared to Moses specifically. He could have easily appeared to the whole group but chose not to. Appearing to the whole group would have removed the need for faith.

sandsjames
05-10-2013, 03:43 PM
Holy bejeezus these posts are all flipped around...

sandsjames
05-10-2013, 03:45 PM
I'm not saying all things would change overnight...and don't think they need to.

The orginial question is what is gained by trying to convince people there is no god.

So, the less people that believe in a God, the less political might the Rick Santorums, et. al. of the world have...The less political clout they have, the less likely they can pass laws...thus, in convincing people there is no God, we get better laws.

Not perfect, not all at once...just a little better over time.

I'm still trying to figure out the meaning of your use of the word "better".

SomeRandomGuy
05-10-2013, 03:45 PM
I'm not saying all things would change overnight...and don't think they need to.

The orginial question is what is gained by trying to convince people there is no god.

So, the less people that believe in a God, the less political might the Rick Santorums, et. al. of the world have...The less political clout they have, the less likely they can pass laws...thus, in convincing people there is no God, we get better laws.

Not perfect, not all at once...just a little better over time.

I kind of wonder how much effect god has on laws anymore though. I mentioned a couple of loaws above but the more I think about it the religious laws seem to be more of the minor inconveience type (not buying beer on sunday). A lot of people view the republicans or conservatives as the god nuts. The funny thing is that a lot of what the republicans stand for directly conflicts with what god would want. The Bible says that the love of money is the root of all evil. It also says that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven. Most of the republican political ideals are for smaller government and lower taxes. Some would say they support these ideas because they want to choose who they give their wealth away too. The problem is that Jesus would be in favor of some programs that support helping people in need. Im not saying Jesus would be a socialist but it is pretty obvious he supported helping out the lowest of the low in society.

sandsjames
05-10-2013, 03:47 PM
Off the top of my head, Why can't I buy beer on sundays in certain places?

And this is honestly part of a motivation to disprove God? Wow.

SomeRandomGuy
05-10-2013, 03:50 PM
And this is honestly part of a motivation to disprove God? Wow.

Actually I do not care about disproving god. I just do not want his existence used to justify restricting my rights. The two biggest laws I would love to see changed are related to online gambling and marijuana legalization. Neither of those laws exist exclusively because christians said so. I just want government to stay out of my business. I do not really care what their motivation or reasoning is.

sandsjames
05-10-2013, 03:54 PM
I kind of wonder how much effect god has on laws anymore though. I mentioned a couple of loaws above but the more I think about it the religious laws seem to be more of the minor inconveience type (not buying beer on sunday). A lot of people view the republicans or conservatives as the god nuts. The funny thing is that a lot of what the republicans stand for directly conflicts with what god would want. The Bible says that the love of money is the root of all evil. It also says that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven. Most of the republican political ideals are for smaller government and lower taxes. Some would say they support these ideas because they want to choose who they give their wealth away too. The problem is that Jesus would be in favor of some programs that support helping people in need. Im not saying Jesus would be a socialist but it is pretty obvious he supported helping out the lowest of the low in society.

Also, a HUGE majority of blacks are Christian and a HUGE majority of Latinos are as well. We know that they almost always vote democrat.

sandsjames
05-10-2013, 03:58 PM
Actually I do not care about disproving god. I just do not want his existence used to justify restricting my rights. The two biggest laws I would love to see changed are related to online gambling and marijuana legalization. Neither of those laws exist exclusively because christians said so. I just want government to stay out of my business. I do not really care what their motivation or reasoning is.

I agree. Your rights should not be restricted based on my beliefs. I'm not sure the gambling and marijuana has anything to do with Christianity. I think that has to do with taxation issues but I'm no expert. It seems pretty simple. If certain people don't want to smoke pot and gamble online then they don't have to, but shouldn't attempt to stop you from doing it. And I also want the government out of my business.

SomeRandomGuy
05-10-2013, 04:01 PM
I agree. Your rights should not be restricted based on my beliefs. I'm not sure the gambling and marijuana has anything to do with Christianity. I think that has to do with taxation issues but I'm no expert. It seems pretty simple. If certain people don't want to smoke pot and gamble online then they don't have to, but shouldn't attempt to stop you from doing it. And I also want the government out of my business.

The reason I brought up marijuana and gambling is to explain the christian factor. While those laws do not exist because of christians the majority of christains are opposed to both being legal. Most of those christians have no real reason to be opposed they just are because they think god wants them to. The problem comes in to play when other groups of people join christians for different reasons (taxation). That creates a majority cannot be defeated. If we remove the god factor the group of people opposed to both laws becomes much smaller.

sandsjames
05-10-2013, 04:06 PM
The reason I brought up marijuana and gambling is to explain the christian factor. While those laws do not exist because of christians the majority of christains are opposed to both being legal. Most of those christians have no real reason to be opposed they just are because they think god wants them to. The problem comes in to play when other groups of people join christians for different reasons (taxation). That creates a majority cannot be defeated. If we remove the god factor the group of people opposed to both laws becomes much smaller.

It is being defeated, however, already. Look at WA and CO.

As far as online gambling (and this is waaaay off topic, I know) the only thing holding that back right now is the taxation. The states can't individually tax the money because there's no single state involved. Until that issue can be cleared up I don't see it becoming legal.

sandsjames
05-10-2013, 04:09 PM
I kind of wonder how much effect god has on laws anymore though. I mentioned a couple of loaws above but the more I think about it the religious laws seem to be more of the minor inconveience type (not buying beer on sunday). A lot of people view the republicans or conservatives as the god nuts. The funny thing is that a lot of what the republicans stand for directly conflicts with what god would want. The Bible says that the love of money is the root of all evil. It also says that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven. Most of the republican political ideals are for smaller government and lower taxes. Some would say they support these ideas because they want to choose who they give their wealth away too. The problem is that Jesus would be in favor of some programs that support helping people in need. Im not saying Jesus would be a socialist but it is pretty obvious he supported helping out the lowest of the low in society.

He also supported teaching people to take care of themselves. That's where the disconnect comes in. Social programs are good and necessary but not as a continuous way of life. It's our job to get the "needy" out of that situation, not make it easier for them to stay in it.

sandsjames
05-10-2013, 04:20 PM
Posts flipping around is right!

I can't figure out which is before which...but, to try and answer all your questions.


Well, for one...gay marriage. A large part of the justification/political movement against it is religiously based. Mostly because a couple of quotes in the Bible say men lying together is bad. If a person gives up belief in that book, they give up that justification...and that only leaves them with "I don't like it" as justification, which does not hold up under scrutiny in the spirit of liberty. So, yes, I think the repeal of DOMA and approval of gay marriage in all 50 states would make for better laws than what we currently have. This is going to happen anyway. And it's not going to make any difference whether people believe in God or not.


There are a lot of others...the influence of the Religious Right is everywhere...yes, beer on Sundays...if beer could be sold on Sundays, that would be a better law. I lived in a town in Texas that didn't sell beer on Sunday. I had to drive 8 minutes to the next town to buy it (or buy it on Saturday). Not much of an inconvenience.


Now, I fully expect you to run the extreme silly with this "Wow, you want to disprove and entire belief system so you can buy a beer on Sunday...Wow"....so have at it. But the point being is it invades almost everything and a lot of it we don't even realize And I believe we need it to be part of our society, even if only to balance things out. If you completely get rid of all consequences I don't think people will be happy with the "freedoms" we have.

ThaBufe
05-10-2013, 05:16 PM
Well, for one...gay marriage. A large part of the justification/political movement against it is religiously based. Mostly because a couple of quotes in the Bible say men lying together is bad. If a person gives up belief in that book, they give up that justification...and that only leaves them with "I don't like it" as justification, which does not hold up under scrutiny in the spirit of liberty.

There are a lot of others...the influence of the Religious Right is everywhere...yes, beer on Sundays...if beer could be sold on Sundays, that would be a better law.


As far as DOMA goes, and based on my reading and interpretation of the bible, if more people would actually read and understand the NT, we wouldn’t have laws like that anyway. After reading I felt pretty certain that it was not my place to enforce God's laws on anyone.

As to some of the others, I was watching the History Channel the other night (as well as just about every night) and came across something pretty interesting. The vast majority of those laws were not born of religion, they we born of Government corruption. No beer on Sundays and dry counties for example exist because after prohibition ended, bootleggers bribed law makers to make it more difficult to get alcohol so they could stay in business. Most gambling laws exist because organizations involved in illegal gambling bribed law makers so they could stay in business and online gambling laws are just the result of do-gooders trying to expand laws and close “loopholes”. The original laws themselves most likely started that way too. Guy runs a gambling operation, sees competition popping up so he bribes somebody to make it illegal because he already knows that he has no problem living outside the law, but most of them will. I’m sure if you really look into the history of Marijuana laws, they most likely started in a similar fashion and for similar reasons.

Lastly, correct me if I’m wrong but the only stem cell research that’s illegal is embryonic stem cell research; which is the creation of human embryos for the specific purpose of destroying them for research. We might be worlds apart on this but nothing you can say on this matter will convince me that this is not a dangerously slippery slope. There are multiple other types of stem cell research that do not require crossing such lines.

sandsjames
05-10-2013, 05:21 PM
There are important things to, like, Stem Cell research...and laws that prohibit it.

So you want to get rid of the current God and replace Him with a new God

SomeRandomGuy
05-10-2013, 05:42 PM
As far as DOMA goes, and based on my reading and interpretation of the bible, if more people would actually read and understand the NT, we wouldn’t have laws like that anyway. After reading I felt pretty certain that it was not my place to enforce God's laws on anyone.

As to some of the others, I was watching the History Channel the other night (as well as just about every night) and came across something pretty interesting. The vast majority of those laws were not born of religion, they we born of Government corruption. No beer on Sundays and dry counties for example exist because after prohibition ended, bootleggers bribed law makers to make it more difficult to get alcohol so they could stay in business. Most gambling laws exist because organizations involved in illegal gambling bribed law makers so they could stay in business and online gambling laws are just the result of do-gooders trying to expand laws and close “loopholes”. The original laws themselves most likely started that way too. Guy runs a gambling operation, sees competition popping up so he bribes somebody to make it illegal because he already knows that he has no problem living outside the law, but most of them will. I’m sure if you really look into the history of Marijuana laws, they most likely started in a similar fashion and for similar reasons.

Lastly, correct me if I’m wrong but the only stem cell research that’s illegal is embryonic stem cell research; which is the creation of human embryos for the specific purpose of destroying them for research. We might be worlds apart on this but nothing you can say on this matter will convince me that this is not a dangerously slippery slope. There are multiple other types of stem cell research that do not require crossing such lines.

The biggest takeaway from this is that most christians do not realize they are being used. I have voted republican or not at all in most elections. With that being said I find myself aligned more and more with the libertarians these days. I used to think the republican party believed in values. More and more I have no idea what the party as a whole stands for. I am originally from Missouri. If I wanted to run for office all I need to do is say that I am against abortion and gun control. Just like that I have a massive block of people voting for me. Most of them will not bother to look into anything else I actually believe in. Most smart politicians have already figured this out. President Obama was smart enough to know that people who label themselves christains will not vote for someone who does not claim to be a christian. For that reason he says he is a christian. That allows some latinos and blacks to justify voting for him. If there was a way to take both religion and money out of our laws we would have better laws. I think we can all agree that all of our laws are influenced by either religion or money or both.

sandsjames
05-10-2013, 05:43 PM
Stem Cell research is a god? What?

I think you know what I meant. Allowing man to do whatever he wants with "perfecting" the human race always works out well.

20+Years
05-10-2013, 05:45 PM
I think this "thou shall not kill" stuff it utter BS. Why can't I kill someone if they make me mad? Thats my right. If it wasn't because of the bible and Christians it wouldn't be a problem.

Now on a non-sarcastic tone: what about adultery? Without religion would adultery be wrong? Or would there be no marriage? What other commandmants could we get rid of.... wait... theres that "kill" thing again.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-10-2013, 05:57 PM
I wouldn't say "all the time" and I wouldn't say it was a lot of people.

He appeared to Moses specifically. He could have easily appeared to the whole group but chose not to. Appearing to the whole group would have removed the need for faith.

Why must God hide in order for faith to exist?

He didn’t used to remain hidden and sometimes he would let at least some people see him.

Why is it such a virtue to believe in a being that is so elusive?

By some accounts, he is going to damn me to the eternal fires of hell for doubting his existence.

He sent Jesus down to walk the earth and perform miracles and to be our savior. The people who were around back then got the benefit of seeing him in action.

We are stuck with having to rely on a lot of stories that can’t readily be verified?

SomeRandomGuy
05-10-2013, 05:58 PM
I think this "thou shall not kill" stuff it utter BS. Why can't I kill someone if they make me mad? Thats my right. If it wasn't because of the bible and Christians it wouldn't be a problem.

Now on a non-sarcastic tone: what about adultery? Without religion would adultery be wrong? Or would there be no marriage? What other commandmants could we get rid of.... wait... theres that "kill" thing again.

Are we talking old testament religion or new testament? In the old testament King Solomon had over 1000 wives. In the New testament it mentions that if your brother dies it is your responsibility to take his wife in and care for her. It also says something about divorce being wrong but then again no one is perfect right? We don't need to follow all the rules but we do need to enforce ceratin ones. God wouldn't have it any other way. After all he did say not to covet your neighbor's ass. That verse alone is enough to ban gay marriage.

SomeRandomGuy
05-10-2013, 06:02 PM
Exactly, without the people who believe in God, murder would be perfectly okay. God is the only thing that tells us is not right to kill other people, which is why atheists actually want to remove murder laws from the books.....

Atheism is a form of Humanism. In humanism I am a god (Im ok with that). If you kill god (me) then god (government I guess?) will smite you.

20+Years
05-10-2013, 06:15 PM
My only point is, if we all like it or not, Religion is what our society and cultural norms have been based off of. There are many good things that entails, and yes some bad. The underlying truth is that if we could just abolish religion today because some people disagree with it, we would live in anarchy tomorrow. Certain people just fail to recognize this fact and debate with blinders on. Thats ok with me though, I know religion will exist next week, month, year, decade, century and on and on. It will continue to shape the overall rules of our society, but as time goes on liberalism and "progress" will loosen up many of the most "unpopular" rules.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-10-2013, 06:38 PM
I agree with that...well I don't think all our society and cultural norms really originate in Religion. I think Religion adopted many that are simply natural morality.



Disagree 100%...societies throughout history have always developed a means to govern themselves, with or without religion.



Because it is simply not true. Rules for society are not based on Religion...Religion has adopted many of the rules that are simply innate instinct...whatever you want to call them.

Just because someone lacks faith in a God does not mean they don't believe in rules for society...



Indeed.


We are social beings so we have developed a code of behavior to interact with each other.

You see the codes of behavior in a hive of bees and in a pack of wolves.

20+Years
05-10-2013, 08:08 PM
Yup, like when a mother wolf kills one of the young by neglecting it for being weakest. Oh wait, religion is what makes killing wrong for human mothers to do this.

garhkal
05-10-2013, 08:22 PM
Wow this thread has gotten way off topic..

F4CrewChick
05-10-2013, 09:03 PM
Funny, I thought it was freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. I believe they are infringing on their right to worship now. Interesting.It's both.

JD2780
05-10-2013, 09:29 PM
It's both.

Nope. Go read it. Free exercise of religion.

Tak
05-10-2013, 09:42 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/f-king-religious-idiots-craigslist-182010851.html

drc100882
05-10-2013, 09:58 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/f-king-religious-idiots-craigslist-182010851.html

"As for the responses he's received so far, he called them mainly positive. And for religious critics who may feel offense, he had a message: "They believe in an invisible sky wizard. I'm sorry. I don't care."

Joe?

FuelShopTech
05-11-2013, 10:40 PM
My only point is, if we all like it or not, Religion is what our society and cultural norms have been based off of. There are many good things that entails, and yes some bad. The underlying truth is that if we could just abolish religion today because some people disagree with it, we would live in anarchy tomorrow. Certain people just fail to recognize this fact and debate with blinders on. Thats ok with me though, I know religion will exist next week, month, year, decade, century and on and on. It will continue to shape the overall rules of our society, but as time goes on liberalism and "progress" will loosen up many of the most "unpopular" rules.

No.

"Morality" springs from having evolved as social animals and the necessity of living together in groups.

That's about as complicated as it gets. "Religion" is not required for "right" and "wrong."

FuelShopTech
05-11-2013, 10:42 PM
So closed-minded.

How can we observe, measure, and predict "God?"

Why is it "closed-minded" to not believe in something for which there is absolutely no reason to believe in?

FuelShopTech
05-11-2013, 10:46 PM
Show me a love study or pill for love.

It's called oxytocin.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/oxytocin


So what do you gain by trying to "prove" to me that there isn't a God? What's the prize?

I'm not trying to "disprove God," therefore the question is irrelevant.

Tak
05-11-2013, 11:11 PM
It's called oxytocin.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/oxytocin



I'm not trying to "disprove God," therefore the question is irrelevant.

Oxytocin is THE DEVIL

Tak
05-12-2013, 01:20 AM
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/r90/484655_10201211852966741_69521948_n.jpg

F4CrewChick
05-13-2013, 01:10 AM
Plus one FuelShopTech!!

Rusty Jones
05-13-2013, 11:31 AM
Also, a HUGE majority of blacks are Christian and a HUGE majority of Latinos are as well. We know that they almost always vote democrat.

This has actually been a major concern for me. As an atheist, I'm a minority within the black community; and being a minority of any kind within the black community... sucks.

But, let's think about this for a second. Academically speaking, blacks and Latinos are the lowest two achieving groups. The lowest academically achieving whites are found... in the Bible Belt.

I know what's going on. I went to church and Sunday school during my pre-teens in the late 80's/early 90's in Virginia (back then, Virginia was still culturally Southern - accents and everything. Not so much anymore.) I listened to preachers and Sunday school teachers tell us to not listen to what's being taught to us science class; that evolution and big bang were the lies of Satan, etc, etc. And, of course, pre-teens being pre-teens, they eat this shit up; because now they have a cause to rebel against the school system.

But more importantly, these children are going to refuse to learn what's being taught to them. This mentality carries over to other subjects as well; not just science.

Why learn why things are the way they are, when you can simply say "because God made it that way"?

Yeah, true intelligence right there.


My only point is, if we all like it or not, Religion is what our society and cultural norms have been based off of.

For example?


There are many good things that entails, and yes some bad. The underlying truth is that if we could just abolish religion today because some people disagree with it, we would live in anarchy tomorrow.

Certain people just fail to recognize this fact and debate with blinders on.


...uh, what? Are you saying that atheists are incapable of making and/or obeying laws?


Thats ok with me though, I know religion will exist next week, month, year, decade, century and on and on. It will continue to shape the overall rules of our society, but as time goes on liberalism and "progress" will loosen up many of the most "unpopular" rules.

Of course, religion isn't going anywhere. But I do believe that there will come a time where the religious will become a minority. Maybe not in our lifetime, maybe not for the next three or four generations, but I believe it's coming.

JD2780
05-13-2013, 12:52 PM
I have to disagree with you on this one. I went to a private christian high school. The school I went to had higher academic standards than any of the other schools in town. Some parents who were not even christian sent their kids to this school simply for the academics. An important part of intelligence is the ability to think critically and not automatically trust everything you are told. In my science class they taught creation and evolution. It was noted that both are "theories" and you are free to believe whichever you want because neither can be proven 100%. One way or another you are going to have to put your faith in things we cannot fully understand.

I think that you blaming christians for the failure of the education system is a bit of a cop out. If you think about it most of our teachers were educated at public universities which are highly liberal. In my opinion the failure of the education system is due to the lack of critical thinking. Instead of teaching kids to compare theories we are teaching them to beleive whatever I say and always accept it as fact. This happens at christian schools and public schools.

Go to the public schools in Las Vegas then look at the Christian based schools in Las Vegas. Tell me which has more issues. You're right, my sons school was taught math, science, history, as well as had bible study, and chapel classes.

JD2780
05-13-2013, 12:52 PM
I have to disagree with you on this one. I went to a private christian high school. The school I went to had higher academic standards than any of the other schools in town. Some parents who were not even christian sent their kids to this school simply for the academics. An important part of intelligence is the ability to think critically and not automatically trust everything you are told. In my science class they taught creation and evolution. It was noted that both are "theories" and you are free to believe whichever you want because neither can be proven 100%. One way or another you are going to have to put your faith in things we cannot fully understand.

I think that you blaming christians for the failure of the education system is a bit of a cop out. If you think about it most of our teachers were educated at public universities which are highly liberal. In my opinion the failure of the education system is due to the lack of critical thinking. Instead of teaching kids to compare theories we are teaching them to beleive whatever I say and always accept it as fact. This happens at christian schools and public schools.

Go to the public schools in Las Vegas then look at the Christian based schools in Las Vegas. Tell me which has more issues. You're right, my sons school was taught math, science, history, as well as had bible study, and chapel classes. Te graduation rate of the public high schools is horrible. Also, most of the middle schools are ESL schools. I had my kids in a school where English was spoke unless you took a foreign language class.

SomeRandomGuy
05-13-2013, 12:55 PM
This has actually been a major concern for me. As an atheist, I'm a minority within the black community; and being a minority of any kind within the black community... sucks.

But, let's think about this for a second. Academically speaking, blacks and Latinos are the lowest two achieving groups. The lowest academically achieving whites are found... in the Bible Belt.

I know what's going on. I went to church and Sunday school during my pre-teens in the late 80's/early 90's in Virginia (back then, Virginia was still culturally Southern - accents and everything. Not so much anymore.) I listened to preachers and Sunday school teachers tell us to not listen to what's being taught to us science class; that evolution and big bang were the lies of Satan, etc, etc. And, of course, pre-teens being pre-teens, they eat this shit up; because now they have a cause to rebel against the school system.

But more importantly, these children are going to refuse to learn what's being taught to them. This mentality carries over to other subjects as well; not just science.

Why learn why things are the way they are, when you can simply say "because God made it that way"?

Yeah, true intelligence right there.

I have to disagree with you on this one. I went to a private christian high school. The school I went to had higher academic standards than any of the other schools in town. Some parents who were not even christian sent their kids to this school simply for the academics. An important part of intelligence is the ability to think critically and not automatically trust everything you are told. In my science class they taught creation and evolution. It was noted that both are "theories" and you are free to believe whichever you want because neither can be proven 100%. One way or another you are going to have to put your faith in things we cannot fully understand.

I think that you blaming christians for the failure of the education system is a bit of a cop out. If you think about it most of our teachers were educated at public universities which are highly liberal. In my opinion the failure of the education system is due to the lack of critical thinking. Instead of teaching kids to compare theories we are teaching them to beleive whatever I say and always accept it as fact. This happens at christian schools and public schools.

JD2780
05-13-2013, 01:00 PM
I find it extremely disturbing that the only thing keeping Christians from going around raping, robbing, and murdering everyone is fear of being punished by some magic dude up in the clouds.

I do the right thing, and will continue to do the right thing, not just because I'm scared of Magic Sky Man.

It's not the only thing. It's also that place called prison. I'm worried about both consequences. Your probably wrong again joe. Wrong again indeed.

JD2780
05-13-2013, 01:08 PM
Okay my mistake. You would be a murdering stealing rapist if it weren't for fear of a god and the real life justice system. Got it.

In other words... you're a total sociopath.

And I'm just not that into raping stealing, or murdering. Prison is a great motivation to not do it though. Word smith joe you're a word smith.

JD2780
05-13-2013, 01:08 PM
Okay my mistake. You would be a murdering stealing rapist if it weren't for fear of a god and the real life justice system. Got it.

In other words... you're a total sociopath.

And I'm just not that into raping stealing, or murdering. Prison is a great motivation to not do it though. Word smith joe you're a word smith.

Tak
05-13-2013, 01:12 PM
The power of Christ compels you.

Greg
05-13-2013, 01:13 PM
I find it extremely disturbing that the only thing keeping Christians from going around raping, robbing, and murdering everyone is fear of being punished by some magic dude up in the clouds.

I do the right thing, and will continue to do the right thing, not just because I'm scared of Magic Sky Man.

You learned to do the right thing, how?

1. Intuitively/instinctively
2. Parental supervision
3. Institutional control
4. All the above
5. None of the above

JD2780
05-13-2013, 01:16 PM
You learned to do the right thing, how?

1. Intuitively/instinctively
2. Parental supervision
3. Institutional control
4. All the above
5. None of the above

Nope, JB was just born knowing. He didn't need parental involvement, teaching, or anything. He just knew.

20+Years
05-13-2013, 04:21 PM
Oh wait... so now we need PARENTAL involvement?

JD2780
05-14-2013, 01:37 AM
So why bother believing in God? What does he bring to the table that you don't already have from society and common sense?

Because my God is constant. Societies change with the wind.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-14-2013, 02:48 AM
Because my God is constant. Societies change with the wind.

Is he constant?

If you happen to be Christian just look how much he changed from the Old Testament to the New Testament.

Also, look how much the interpretation of the New Testament has changed in the last 500 years.

Perhaps he is constant from your perspective but not mine.

Again using the Christian bible as an example, he went from drowning all the inhabitants of the earth, sparing only an Ark full of animals and one family to sending his son to earth the save everyone.

Does that sound constant to you?

SomeRandomGuy
05-14-2013, 02:56 AM
Is he constant?

If you happen to be Christian just look how much he changed from the Old Testament to the New Testament.

Also, look how much the interpretation of the New Testament has changed in the last 500 years.

Perhaps he is constant from your perspective but not mine.

Again using the Christian bible as an example, he went from drowning all the inhabitants of the earth, sparing only an Ark full of animals and one family to sending his son to earth the save everyone.

Does that sound constant to you?

In his defense he only did that once and he promised that he would never do it again. He even gave us a rainbow as his promise ring that he wouldn't do it again.


small print* He said he would never destroy the earth again with water. Other options are still avaliable. Enjoy the rainbow though

Absinthe Anecdote
05-14-2013, 03:09 AM
In his defense he only did that once and he promised that he would never do it again. He even gave us a rainbow as his promise ring that he wouldn't do it again.


small print* He said he would never destroy the earth again with water. Other options are still avaliable. Enjoy the rainbow though

That isn’t constant or consistent behavior is it?

That sounds like someone who lost their temper and then felt remorse. That is why I’ve always been confused when people describe God as being perfect.

Tak
05-14-2013, 03:25 AM
"Community Guidelines

Disruption
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sandsjames
05-14-2013, 03:28 AM
Is he constant?

If you happen to be Christian just look how much he changed from the Old Testament to the New Testament.

Also, look how much the interpretation of the New Testament has changed in the last 500 years.

Perhaps he is constant from your perspective but not mine.

Again using the Christian bible as an example, he went from drowning all the inhabitants of the earth, sparing only an Ark full of animals and one family to sending his son to earth the save everyone.

Does that sound constant to you?

He IS constant. Whether the bible changes, the interpretation changes, etc...He remains constant. It's us who change...

RobotChicken
05-14-2013, 03:57 AM
He IS constant. Whether the bible changes, the interpretation changes, etc...He remains constant. It's us who change...

:typing "And I AM THE ONLY 'RC' !!!! :spy:party

Absinthe Anecdote
05-14-2013, 09:54 AM
He IS constant. Whether the bible changes, the interpretation changes, etc...He remains constant. It's us who change...

And this is exactly what led me to the conclusion that god was created by man. If you travel amongst the protestant denominations of Christianity alone, you see a slightly different god in each one.

Different aspects of his holy book are emphasized and observed. I’ve never seen, felt or heard god in any of these churches; I’ve only seen men and women talking about him and the aspects of his personality haven’t been very consistent.

From the Pentecostal church of my childhood there was the god who demanded that I be baptized, to the Baptist church of my early 20’s there was a god who only required that I profess to believe in his only son to receive salvation.

The only evidence I have to examine god is the bible and there are several versions of it floating around. But I always seem to go back and look at the differences in the character of god between the old and new testaments.

The god in the Old Testament took and active hand in human affairs, at least once in a while, but the god in the New Testament has a very hands-off approach to humanity. Since Jesus left he hasn’t done much down here; yes, I know he is supposed to come back one day but we were talking about him being constant.

That tendency disappear for thousands of years and to pop up for a quick smiting, crucifixion or apocalypse isn’t constant, I’d call it intermittent at best.

The god I don’t believe in is not very constant; he is one mysterious fellow who used to say and do a lot of things that contradicted each other.

Rusty Jones
05-14-2013, 10:52 AM
Of course, and then there's the fact that Judaism came from the polytheistic Canaanite religion, and was itself polytheistic in the beginning (Read Deuteronomy 32:8-9, and Psalms 82; for example).

Christianity gets even more strange than Judaism.

For example: there was no "Kingdom of God" or "Kingdom of Heaven" mentioned in the Old Testament that I'm aware of. Same with hell. In fact, Jews today don't even acknowledge those things. They claim that it's possible that one could be with "HaShem" or reincarnated, or if wicked, their soul could be annihilated. But those are mere postulations. Nothing more. Jews don't claim to know for sure what an afterlife is actually like. The New Testament introduced all of that.

But let's say, for the sake of argument, that the Christian concept of the afterlife was believed in from the beginning.

Why would God have to go through the trouble of impregnating a mortal, having her raise his son, and then putting his son on a mission that requires him to die on a cross; in order to make it possible for people to enter the Kingdom and not go to Hell?

Couldn't God (the Father) - who is supposed to be omnipotent and omniscient - simply forgive sins on his own and open the gates to the Kingdom without going through all of that trouble?

sandsjames
05-14-2013, 01:49 PM
Of course, and then there's the fact that Judaism came from the polytheistic Canaanite religion, and was itself polytheistic in the beginning (Read Deuteronomy 32:8-9, and Psalms 82; for example).

Christianity gets even more strange than Judaism.

For example: there was no "Kingdom of God" or "Kingdom of Heaven" mentioned in the Old Testament that I'm aware of. Same with hell. In fact, Jews today don't even acknowledge those things. They claim that it's possible that one could be with "HaShem" or reincarnated, or if wicked, their soul could be annihilated. But those are mere postulations. Nothing more. Jews don't claim to know for sure what an afterlife is actually like. The New Testament introduced all of that.

But let's say, for the sake of argument, that the Christian concept of the afterlife was believed in from the beginning.

Why would God have to go through the trouble of impregnating a mortal, having her raise his son, and then putting his son on a mission that requires him to die on a cross; in order to make it possible for people to enter the Kingdom and not go to Hell?

Couldn't God (the Father) - who is supposed to be omnipotent and omniscient - simply forgive sins on his own and open the gates to the Kingdom without going through all of that trouble?

So which is it? Did Christianity steal it's beliefs from other religions or did it not? You've now stated cases for both.

Rusty Jones
05-14-2013, 01:53 PM
So which is it? Did Christianity steal it's beliefs from other religions or did it not? You've now stated cases for both.

Christianity steal its beliefs from other religions? I don't recall ever trying to make that case. At least not on MTF.

All I'm saying is that... the first people to worship the same god that you worship, believed him to be member of pantheon that consisted of the 70 sons of El and Ashera.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-14-2013, 02:26 PM
So which is it? Did Christianity steal it's beliefs from other religions or did it not? You've now stated cases for both.

Rusty didn’t make that claim but now that you put it out there, I’ll pick it up.

There is plenty of compelling evidence that that Christianity borrowed from previous belief systems.

The holidays of Christmas and Easter where placed over celebrations of Pagan holidays and there are elements and practices of Zoroastrianism and cults that were popular in the Roman Army that Christianity appear to have adopted as their own.

Every wonder where the strange story of the Easter Bunny came from? How about decking the halls with boughs of holly?

sandsjames
05-14-2013, 02:36 PM
Every wonder where the strange story of the Easter Bunny came from? How about decking the halls with boughs of holly?Nope, never wondered because I was told at a very young age. Never bothered me, though.
Also, I don't think there is evidence that Christianity "borrowed" from anyone. In my view, it is even more "proof" that the belief system is on track when it is many of the beliefs are shared between different "systems".

It's like saying that GE "borrowed" or "stole" the idea of a refrigerator door from Maytag.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-14-2013, 02:50 PM
Nope, never wondered because I was told at a very young age. Never bothered me, though.
Also, I don't think there is evidence that Christianity "borrowed" from anyone. In my view, it is even more "proof" that the belief system is on track when it is many of the beliefs are shared between different "systems".

It's like saying that GE "borrowed" or "stole" the idea of a refrigerator door from Maytag.

This goes along with an earlier point I was trying to make about morality having evolved amongst the practices of human beings and not being divinely inspired.

sandsjames
05-14-2013, 03:00 PM
This goes along with an earlier point I was trying to make about morality having evolved amongst the practices of human beings and not being divinely inspired.

Ok, you've convinced me. I know longer believe...oh...wait...never mind.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-14-2013, 03:13 PM
Ok, you've convinced me. I know longer believe...oh...wait...never mind.

Fantastic! Welcome to Atheism!

Now, as your official atheist sponsor you are now required to donate 10 percent of your monthly pay to me.

I’ll send you a PM with that covers what is now expected of you and my bank account number so you can set up an automatic transfer every month.

Golther
05-14-2013, 04:03 PM
Fantastic! Welcome to Atheism!

Now, as your official atheist sponsor you are now required to donate 10 percent of your monthly pay to me.

I’ll send you a PM with that covers what is now expected of you and my bank account number so you can set up an automatic transfer every month.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/32561099.jpg

JD2780
05-14-2013, 05:10 PM
Or it could be the fact that when somebody does answer you become condescending, question their education, and pretty much act like a child. I've had conversations with people about religion. My brother-in-law doesn't believe in anything really. He and I can talk, but he does act like an ass.

JD2780
05-14-2013, 05:11 PM
What about the tooth fairy and Santa Claus? Why did you abandon some mythical beings you were taught to believe at a young age, but not all of them? Serious question.



There is a huge amount of evidence that Christianity - and many other religions - in the Middle East and Mediterranean all borrowed and copied each other. The only reason you don't "think" there's evidence is because you deliberately refuse to educate yourself on it.

Recently, with you nobody can take a question seriously.

JD2780
05-14-2013, 05:16 PM
Or it could be the fact that when somebody does answer you become condescending, question their education, and pretty much act like a child. I've had conversations with people about religion. My brother-in-law doesn't believe in anything really. He and I can talk, but he does act like an ass.

sandsjames
05-14-2013, 06:48 PM
What about the tooth fairy and Santa Claus? Why did you abandon some mythical beings you were taught to believe at a young age, but not all of them? Serious question. Really? That's a serious question? You're dumber than I thought.




There is a huge amount of evidence that Christianity - and many other religions - in the Middle East and Mediterranean all borrowed and copied each other. The only reason you don't "think" there's evidence is because you deliberately refuse to educate yourself on it.I am very educated on it and it still has not, and will not, change my feelings about it.

SomeRandomGuy
05-14-2013, 07:05 PM
There is a huge amount of evidence that Christianity - and many other religions - in the Middle East and Mediterranean all borrowed and copied each other. The only reason you don't "think" there's evidence is because you deliberately refuse to educate yourself on it.

If I were going to start a business I would look at other similar businesses and determine what parts of their business work and which do not. I would then model my business based on those ideas. If I were going to start a religion I would copy off of other religions. The fact that a religion is similar to others does not automatically make it untrue. Both christian science and secular science agree on just about everything except for how th world started. Since they appear to have copied each other does that make science fake?

Tak
05-14-2013, 07:12 PM
Santa Claus and tooth fairy both teach about getting something, like in getting salvation...

SomeRandomGuy
05-14-2013, 07:15 PM
So, this is kind of heady...agree, that if I were going to start a religion, that I would look at other religions to see "what worked."

That does sort of imply though, that religions are being made up, and hterefore untrue...unless the person "starting a religion" is God himself, but then He is looking toward other religions to see what worked??



Oh, c'mon now...

The point I was making is that religion most likely started with someone somewhere. Whether that person made up the religion or that person was actually god can be argued. I am just saying that obviously people have changed certain things or in some cases started their own religion. That does not automatically disqualify the original religion. A good example of this is the Protestant church versus the catholic church.

If you do some research on the Tudor Line of Kings you will find that the modern protestant church can be traced back to Henry VIII. He wanted a divorce from his wife Catherine of Argon even though divorce was not allowed in the catholic church. This cause him to split from the catholic church and declare the king as the head of the church of england. Now that he was head of the church he granted himself the divorce he wanted that the pope would not allow.

Many religions throughout time have branched from others for some reason or another. The biggest reason is ussually that someone disagrees with a particular rule so they start their own religion which allows them to get rid of that rule.

Pullinteeth
05-14-2013, 07:49 PM
If you do some research on the Tudor Line of Kings you will find that the modern protestant church can be traced back to Henry VIII. He wanted a divorce from his wife Catherine of Argon even though divorce was not allowed in the catholic church. This cause him to split from the catholic church and declare the king as the head of the church of england. Now that he was head of the church he granted himself the divorce he wanted that the pope would not allow.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmnot exactly. The Church of England and the Anglican church and their derivatives? Yes. Protestant religions as a whole? Not so much. Martin Luther should get a good portion of that credit and the credit for the Church of England as well. After all, he was a driving force behind the Reformation and founded his new "Protestant" religion in 1525 whereas Henry VIII didn't declare himself head of the church of England and thereby found by proclamation the Church of England until 1534....

JD2780
05-15-2013, 10:40 AM
Yes, if I insisted that there is a cave troll living under my desk, people probably wouldn't take me seriously either.



I still remember when I was real little and Mom said Santa Claus doesn't actually exist - after a few minutes of thinking I asked her if the Tooth Fairy is made up too. And yet I went on believing in that Jesus dude up until I was an adult. Why? I guess because she believed in the Jesus dude, so I just accepted it without really thinking.

Why do we as a society do this huge disservice to our children?


And that's the problem. You "feel" about it instead of THINK about it. The truth doesn't always feel nice. And one would think that it is beyond silly to believe that every religion in the world just goes on in isolation, and they don't communicate or interact with each other... yet that's what many people go on believing, because it is comfortable and nice to do so.

There is JB, supposedly defending my right to freedom of religion but not respecting my religion. Tolerance isn't really something democrats are good at. They just sell themselves like they are.

sandsjames
05-15-2013, 01:03 PM
There is JB, supposedly defending my right to freedom of religion but not respecting my religion. Tolerance isn't really something democrats are good at. They just sell themselves like they are.

It all stems from fear. It's the same reason people hate others because of race. It's fear and ignorance. I'd be scared from his perspective, too, if I was aware of the consequences of being wrong about there being a God.

20+Years
05-15-2013, 02:12 PM
What I don't get is why my belief offends Joe so bad. I have made no laws, forced my beliefs on no one, persecuted nobody. But Joe stays on these boards giving his OPINION about my intellectual level compared to his and other non-believers. Why Joe, if you are so above us all, do you feel the need to put us down and mock what we believe? Are you (A) truly a bully, (B) just a dick to other people, or (C) do you not know how to respectfully debate a point? I would give you a word of advice, if you truly want people to see your point of view, quit mocking them. If not, see A, B, C.

sandsjames
05-15-2013, 02:13 PM
What I don't get is why my belief offends Joe so bad. I have made no laws, forced my beliefs on no one, persecuted nobody. But Joe stays on these boards giving his OPINION about my intellectual level compared to his and other non-believers. Why Joe, if you are so above us all, do you feel the need to put us down and mock what we believe? Are you (A) truly a bully, (B) just a dick to other people, or (C) do you not know how to respectfully debate a point? I would give you a word of advice, if you truly want people to see your point of view, quit mocking them. If not, see A, B, C.

It's fear of the unknown...closed minded people struggle with that.

SomeRandomGuy
05-15-2013, 02:19 PM
What I don't get is why my belief offends Joe so bad. I have made no laws, forced my beliefs on no one, persecuted nobody. But Joe stays on these boards giving his OPINION about my intellectual level compared to his and other non-believers. Why Joe, if you are so above us all, do you feel the need to put us down and mock what we believe? Are you (A) truly a bully, (B) just a dick to other people, or (C) do you not know how to respectfully debate a point? I would give you a word of advice, if you truly want people to see your point of view, quit mocking them. If not, see A, B, C.

What you just layed out is the exact blueprint of how progressives are now winning the policy debate in America. Instead of launching insults they are having rational debate (not all but the ones who are successful). Look at the gay rights agenda. All they have done in public is make it known they want equality and try to show they are just normal humans who have a different sexual preference. The people who oppose gay rights come out with inflamatory comments and defend their position with the Bible. When rational people in the middle look at the issue they tend to side with the victim instead of the aggressor. The easiest way to win an argument is make your opponent look like a bully. Just let them do all the talking and cherry pick their points to show their side is not really rational. Joe is one of the smarter people on this board but he is not going to win any debate (not sure that is his goal anyways) because he resorts to childish tacticts and attacks the person instead of the issue.

Monkey
05-15-2013, 03:24 PM
It's fear of the unknown...closed minded people struggle with that.

While I respect your religious beliefs and have no desire to convince you to abandon them, I would say that you just summed up the reason why religion came in to existence in the first place--fear of the unknown. It's a lot easier to say that a supernatural power is behind the unknown than it is to accept that you cannot explain it.

Why does the sun cross the sky?--it must be a god in a sky chariot.
When we die, is that it?--there must be a glorious afterlife or our lives would be pointless.
Are the people who do bad things to me ever going to have to pay for it?--there must be a horrible place that makes them suffer for eternity; that way we will win in the end!

20+Years
05-15-2013, 04:21 PM
Well way to dodge my whole question in general Joe. You are also unjustifiably trying to pin on me in particular every sin committed by Christians since the beginning of time. By that note, I guess I am guilty of slavery because past white people did it and I'm white. All blacks must be guilty of robbing gas stations because I saw a black guy get prosecuted for it once.

I believe your white, did you make a repriation payment yet for your ancestors transgressions, or did you just change your skin color too?

sandsjames
05-15-2013, 05:06 PM
That brings up my earlier afterlife point that blew Sandjames' mind... the Hebrews had no concept of an afterlife until they met the Babylonians. For example in Job (which is one of the earliest stories in the bible) - it discusses in some detail how the virtuous are rewarded for their good works in THIS life - as there is no afterlife. Hence why Job couldn't understand why he was being made to suffer - as he had done no wrong.

It DID indeed blow my mind. I'd never, ever heard it before. Next thing you are going to tell me that professional wrestling isn't real. Just keep blowing my mind with all of your new information.

sandsjames
05-15-2013, 05:07 PM
Why is it always the religious right? I'm sure there must be some lefties who are religious. Oh, that's right...just the majority of Obama's votes.

SomeRandomGuy
05-15-2013, 05:54 PM
That brings up my earlier afterlife point that blew Sandjames' mind... the Hebrews had no concept of an afterlife until they met the Babylonians. For example in Job (which is one of the earliest stories in the bible) - it discusses in some detail how the virtuous are rewarded for their good works in THIS life - as there is no afterlife. Hence why Job couldn't understand why he was being made to suffer - as he had done no wrong.

I saw this on FB and it cracked me up. Sorry Joe




An atheist was seated next to a little girl on an airplane and he turned
to her and said, "Do you want to talk? Flights go quicker if you strike
up a conversation with your fellow passenger."


The little girl, who had just started to read her book, replied to the total
stranger, "What would you want to talk about?"

"Oh, I don't know," said the atheist. "How about why there is no God,
or no Heaven or Hell, or no life after death?" as he smiled smugly.

"Okay," she said. "Those could be interesting topics but let me ask
you a question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same
stuff - grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns
out a flat patty, but a horse produces clumps. Why do you suppose that is?"

The atheist, visibly surprised by the little girl's intelligence,
thinks about it and says, "Hmmm, I have no idea." To which
the little girl replies, "Do you really feel qualified to discuss
God, Heaven and Hell, or life after death, when you don't know shit?"

And then she went back to reading her book.

20+Years
05-15-2013, 06:14 PM
made me laugh...

Rusty Jones
05-15-2013, 06:20 PM
It DID indeed blow my mind. I'd never, ever heard it before. Next thing you are going to tell me that professional wrestling isn't real. Just keep blowing my mind with all of your new information.

That's what "faith" is all about. Shrugging off known or new information that conflicts with ones belief, so that faith is maintained.


Why is it always the religious right? I'm sure there must be some lefties who are religious. Oh, that's right...just the majority of Obama's votes.

And, although people on the left could use religion to justify their position on certain issues if they wanted to, how often do you see them doing it? How often do you see them trying to inject government with religion?


I saw this on FB and it cracked me up. Sorry Joe

You know what the great thing is about "I don't know?" It's an intellectually honest answer, as opposed to "God made it like that."

RobotChicken
05-15-2013, 06:35 PM
I saw this on FB and it cracked me up. Sorry Joe
:lock1:hat:first 'SRG'...You go to 'RC's hall of fame on that one'!! :lock1:cool::welcome

WCS
05-16-2013, 08:53 AM
And this is exactly what led me to the conclusion that god was created by man. If you travel amongst the protestant denominations of Christianity alone, you see a slightly different god in each one.

Different aspects of his holy book are emphasized and observed. I’ve never seen, felt or heard god in any of these churches; I’ve only seen men and women talking about him and the aspects of his personality haven’t been very consistent.

From the Pentecostal church of my childhood there was the god who demanded that I be baptized, to the Baptist church of my early 20’s there was a god who only required that I profess to believe in his only son to receive salvation.

The only evidence I have to examine god is the bible and there are several versions of it floating around. But I always seem to go back and look at the differences in the character of god between the old and new testaments.

The god in the Old Testament took and active hand in human affairs, at least once in a while, but the god in the New Testament has a very hands-off approach to humanity. Since Jesus left he hasn’t done much down here; yes, I know he is supposed to come back one day but we were talking about him being constant.

That tendency disappear for thousands of years and to pop up for a quick smiting, crucifixion or apocalypse isn’t constant, I’d call it intermittent at best.

The god I don’t believe in is not very constant; he is one mysterious fellow who used to say and do a lot of things that contradicted each other.

II CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 4
--3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

--4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Rusty Jones
05-16-2013, 10:35 AM
If I had to take a guess, WCS is Presbyterian. This passage is usually used to substantiate the Calvinist doctrine of predestination.

Regardless, I really don't see the point in quoting Bible passages to atheists in order challenge their opinion something. Makes no sense to me.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-16-2013, 11:25 AM
II CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 4
--3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

--4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

I like the New International Version a little better:

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-16-2013, 11:30 AM
If I had to take a guess, WCS is Presbyterian. This passage is usually used to substantiate the Calvinist doctrine of predestination.

Regardless, I really don't see the point in quoting Bible passages to atheists in order challenge their opinion something. Makes no sense to me.

I don’t mind, I rather like it when believers and non believers study the bible together. It was my search for God in the pages of the bible that led me to atheism.

Rusty Jones
05-16-2013, 11:47 AM
I like the New International Version a little better:

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

The problem with the New International Version is that it deliberately omits a lot of passages.

I find the best Bible to be the ones that are used by the Greek Orthodox Church. ALL parts of the Old Testament that were omitted by Jews in 100 AD, and later by Protestants during the Reformation are there (the Catholic Church omitted some as well, but not as much as Protestants and Jews have).

But... for the books that are still found in the Jewish Tanakh, the Tanakh is the best Old Testament. It was heavily edited after 600 BC to reflect monotheism; but Christian Old Testaments are edits of THAT edit.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-16-2013, 12:45 PM
The problem with the New International Version is that it deliberately omits a lot of passages.

I find the best Bible to be the ones that are used by the Greek Orthodox Church. ALL parts of the Old Testament that were omitted by Jews in 100 AD, and later by Protestants during the Reformation are there (the Catholic Church omitted some as well, but not as much as Protestants and Jews have).

But... for the books that are still found in the Jewish Tanakh, the Tanakh is the best Old Testament. It was heavily edited after 600 BC to reflect monotheism; but Christian Old Testaments are edits of THAT edit.

The NIV’s readability is its big selling point for me; I wasn’t aware of blatant and substantial omissions.

Are there many?

Funny you should mention the Greek Orthodox Church, the best conversation on religion I’ve ever had was with a member of the Greek Orthodox Church.

Rusty Jones
05-16-2013, 12:53 PM
The NIV’s readability is its big selling point for me; I wasn’t aware of blatant and substantial omissions.

Are there many?

Here's a link from an apologist defending the omissions.

http://www.anointedlinks.com/niv_omissions.html

Absinthe Anecdote
05-16-2013, 04:04 PM
If the King James Version was good enough for Paul, it's good enough for me!

When I was a kid I heard one of my father’s friends quoting the bible and saying “Thine” and “Thou” and I asked, “Why are you saying Thine and Thou”?

He smiled at me and said, “Because, that’s the way they talked back then”.

My father pounced, “that’s the way who talked?”

“Jesus and them!” he exclaimed.

You should have seen the look on his face when my father explained that Jesus didn’t speak English.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-16-2013, 04:25 PM
Exactly...I also find it mildly amusing when people pray in the King's English.

I asked my Sunday school teacher what the Epistles of Paul were and was told they were the thorns put on the head of the disciples after Jesus was crucified.

My grandmother straightened that one out; we had a new Sunday school teacher the very next week.

20+Years
05-16-2013, 05:47 PM
I never planned for this discussion to turn this serious. Quit discussing the actual verses and get back to bashing each other. Non-believers are DOOMED!

Absinthe Anecdote
05-16-2013, 08:55 PM
Here's a link from an apologist defending the omissions.

http://www.anointedlinks.com/niv_omissions.html

Back when I was reading the bible a lot I would usually compare KJV and NIV whenever I was confused on a particular passage.

Although I wasn’t looking for glaring omissions, I never noticed anything left out of the NIV that I considered substantive. I tend to side with the author of that article.

After all, as you pointed out earlier we are talking about translations and edits of previous edits. Plus, I had long since concluded that the scriptures (any version) weren’t the word of god.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-16-2013, 09:03 PM
Here's a link from an apologist defending the omissions.

http://www.anointedlinks.com/niv_omissions.html

Back when I was reading the bible a lot I would usually compare KJV and NIV whenever I was confused on a particular passage.

Although I wasn’t looking for glaring omissions, I never noticed anything left out of the NIV that I considered substantive.
I tend to side with the author of that article.

After all, as you pointed out earlier we are talking about translations and edits of previous edits. Plus, I had long since concluded that the scriptures (any version) weren’t the word of god.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-16-2013, 09:04 PM
Here's a link from an apologist defending the omissions.


Back when I was reading the bible a lot I would usually compare KJV and NIV whenever I was confused on a particular passage.

Although I wasn’t looking for glaring omissions, I never noticed anything left out of the NIV that I considered substantive.
I tend to side with the author of that article.

After all, as you pointed out earlier we are talking about translations and edits of previous edits. Plus, I had long since concluded that the scriptures (any version) weren’t the word of god.

20+Years
05-17-2013, 12:59 AM
Yes. the NIV has changes. Enough it put the Southern Baptists against any version not the KJ, as they felt man could not change the word of God at a whim.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-17-2013, 02:32 AM
Yes. the NIV has changes. Enough it put the Southern Baptists against any version not the KJ, as they felt man could not change the word of God at a whim.

That isn’t true, the Southern Baptists Convention endorsed the 1984 edition of the NIV and only recently objected to the 2011 edition over complimentary/non-complimentary gender related language, many Baptist churches continue to use the NIV.

Damn dude, I’m an atheist and you’ve got me defending the Baptists.

I encourage all believers to read the bible thoroughly and study its history because I believe it is a path to atheism for so many people.

RobotChicken
05-17-2013, 03:37 AM
:plane No athiest in any foxhole I ever shared with an 'A$$CLOWN' !!!:brick

Rusty Jones
05-17-2013, 10:50 AM
:plane No athiest in any foxhole I ever shared with an 'A$$CLOWN' !!!:brick

Bullshit. I'm sure JB knows that this is a load of bull from experience.

JD2780
05-17-2013, 10:59 AM
Bullshit. I'm sure JB knows that this is a load of bull from experience.

And I disagree. From experience.

Rusty Jones
05-17-2013, 11:10 AM
And I disagree. From experience.

Not first hand. Unless you were an atheist.

JD2780
05-17-2013, 11:15 AM
Not first hand. Unless you were an atheist.

Every foxhole I've been in had a religious individual. Plus JB says he used to be a Christian. Probably wasn't in any foxholes in the last few years.

Rusty Jones
05-17-2013, 11:23 AM
I'm also going to say this: many people who claim to be atheists aren't true atheists.

And I don't mean this in the "no true Scotsman" way that Christians do, when a Christian does something that makes the rest look bad.

I mean this in the sense that, many people who claim to be atheists really DO believe in God; they're just angry at him and rebelling. They don't like the restrictions that religion places on them, so they give God the finger and convince themselves that they don't believe in him.

For example, you might have a gay man who wants to live his life as a gay man, and believes that God won't let him. He says, "fuck you, God; I'm atheist now" and then lives his life "free," the way that God wouldn't let him.

That's not a true atheist. That's someone who is simply angry at God.

You can spot a fake atheist by asking them why they're atheist, and if it has anything to do with religion being oppressive or causing damage around the world - you are, AT LEAST, dealing with an agnostic. But in America, likely someone who holds Christian beliefs.

Granted, I hold these same complaints about religion, but it's not WHY I'm atheist.

The fact is, there is no evidence for God's existence. NONE. Sure, some Christians say they do, and merely ask a rhetorical question - where, if you can't answer it, you "lose" and therefore, God exists... BUT, regardless, the same "proof" that any Jew, Christian, or Muslim gives... I can use the SAME evidence to prove that Zeus, Neptune, Lugh, Heimdall, or any other god exists.

This is the argument, the non-emotional argument, that a true atheist should give.

Or he could respond by asking you why you're a Christian.

Those people who somehow "find God" in the foxhole? They probably had God the whole time.

JD2780
05-17-2013, 11:33 AM
I'm also going to say this: many people who claim to be atheists aren't true atheists.

And I don't mean this in the "no true Scotsman" way that Christians do, when a Christian does something that makes the rest look bad.

I mean this in the sense that, many people who claim to be atheists really DO believe in God; they're just angry at him and rebelling. They don't like the restrictions that religion places on them, so they give God the finger and convince themselves that they don't believe in him.

For example, you might have a gay man who wants to live his life as a gay man, and believes that God won't let him. He says, "fuck you, God; I'm atheist now" and then lives his life "free," the way that God wouldn't let him.

That's not a true atheist. That's someone who is simply angry at God.

You can spot a fake atheist by asking them why they're atheist, and if it has anything to do with religion being oppressive or causing damage around the world - you are, AT LEAST, dealing with an agnostic. But in America, likely someone who holds Christian beliefs.

Granted, I hold these same complaints about religion, but it's not WHY I'm atheist.

The fact is, there is no evidence for God's existence. NONE. Sure, some Christians say they do, and merely ask a rhetorical question - where, if you can't answer it, you "lose" and therefore, God exists... BUT, regardless, the same "proof" that any Jew, Christian, or Muslim gives... I can use the SAME evidence to prove that Zeus, Neptune, Lugh, Heimdall, or any other god exists.

This is the argument, the non-emotional argument, that a true atheist should give.

Or he could respond by asking you why you're a Christian.

Those people who somehow "find God" in the foxhole? They probably had God the whole time.

I like it. Unemotional talking points. I can respect everything you said and your beliefs. Thats the great thing about America, we can have differing beliefs. Just don't give people crap for their beliefs being different.

JD2780
05-17-2013, 12:10 PM
I'm surprised nobody brought up something Pat Robertson said. Completely idiotic and does not represent what many Christian men belief. Embarrassing.

Rusty Jones
05-17-2013, 12:34 PM
Pat Robertson is one of the leaders of the religious right.

I thought people here would love him.

Though, I must say this: I really do wonder why this doesn't have Christians questioning religion.

I know why Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Lutherans go to church every week: it's a celebration of the eucharist. Communion is what it's centered around. Catholics and Eastern Orthodox believe in transubstantiation of the bread and wine (bread and wine, in whole, becomes the body and blood of Christ), and Lutherans believe in consubstantiation (the bread and wine has the body and blood of Christ IN it).

For non-Lutheran Protestants... you go there for the sole purpose of letting the preacher preach. Because he or she knows more about the God and the Bible than you do. And if you don't believe that they know more than you do, then why are you there?

So, someone who knows more about God and the Bible than you do says that a man is a man, and men cheat; so get over it.

Do Christians accept this? Or do they move onto another church, so that the pastor there can tell them something else that's totally off-the-wall? You're not as knowledgeable as they are; that's why you're sitting in the pews doing the listening while they're standing up front doing the talking.

The moment you realize that these leaders are WRONG, is the moment that you're able to think for yourself; and something should click in your mind that your whole way of thinking needs to change.

JD2780
05-17-2013, 12:38 PM
Pat Robertson is one of the leaders of the religious right.

I thought people here would love him.

Though, I must say this: I really do wonder why this doesn't have Christians questioning religion.

I know why Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Lutherans go to church every week: it's a celebration of the eucharist. Communion is what it's centered around. Catholics and Eastern Orthodox believe in transubstantiation of the bread and wine (bread and wine, in whole, becomes the body and blood of Christ), and Lutherans believe in consubstantiation (the bread and wine has the body and blood of Christ IN it).

For non-Lutheran Protestants... you go there for the sole purpose of letting the preacher preach. Because he or she knows more about the God and the Bible than you do. And if you don't believe that they know more than you do, then why are you there?

So, someone who knows more about God and the Bible than you do says that a man is a man, and men cheat; so get over it.

Do Christians accept this? Or do they move onto another church, so that the pastor there can tell them something else that's totally off-the-wall? You're not as knowledgeable as they are; that's why you're sitting in the pews doing the listening while they're standing up front doing the talking.

The moment you realize that these leaders are WRONG, is the moment that you're able to think for yourself; and something should click in your mind that your whole way of thinking needs to change.

I accept the commandments. A leader was wrong. My pastor hasn't said or done anything like this.

sandsjames
05-17-2013, 01:21 PM
I'm also going to say this: many people who claim to be atheists aren't true atheists.

And I don't mean this in the "no true Scotsman" way that Christians do, when a Christian does something that makes the rest look bad.

I mean this in the sense that, many people who claim to be atheists really DO believe in God; they're just angry at him and rebelling. They don't like the restrictions that religion places on them, so they give God the finger and convince themselves that they don't believe in him.

For example, you might have a gay man who wants to live his life as a gay man, and believes that God won't let him. He says, "fuck you, God; I'm atheist now" and then lives his life "free," the way that God wouldn't let him.

That's not a true atheist. That's someone who is simply angry at God.

You can spot a fake atheist by asking them why they're atheist, and if it has anything to do with religion being oppressive or causing damage around the world - you are, AT LEAST, dealing with an agnostic. But in America, likely someone who holds Christian beliefs.

Granted, I hold these same complaints about religion, but it's not WHY I'm atheist.

The fact is, there is no evidence for God's existence. NONE. Sure, some Christians say they do, and merely ask a rhetorical question - where, if you can't answer it, you "lose" and therefore, God exists... BUT, regardless, the same "proof" that any Jew, Christian, or Muslim gives... I can use the SAME evidence to prove that Zeus, Neptune, Lugh, Heimdall, or any other god exists.

This is the argument, the non-emotional argument, that a true atheist should give.

Or he could respond by asking you why you're a Christian.

Those people who somehow "find God" in the foxhole? They probably had God the whole time.

+1....awesome post...

sandsjames
05-17-2013, 01:31 PM
Pat Robertson is one of the leaders of the religious right.

I thought people here would love him.

Though, I must say this: I really do wonder why this doesn't have Christians questioning religion.

I know why Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Lutherans go to church every week: it's a celebration of the eucharist. Communion is what it's centered around. Catholics and Eastern Orthodox believe in transubstantiation of the bread and wine (bread and wine, in whole, becomes the body and blood of Christ), and Lutherans believe in consubstantiation (the bread and wine has the body and blood of Christ IN it).

For non-Lutheran Protestants... you go there for the sole purpose of letting the preacher preach. Because he or she knows more about the God and the Bible than you do. And if you don't believe that they know more than you do, then why are you there?

So, someone who knows more about God and the Bible than you do says that a man is a man, and men cheat; so get over it.

Do Christians accept this? Or do they move onto another church, so that the pastor there can tell them something else that's totally off-the-wall? You're not as knowledgeable as they are; that's why you're sitting in the pews doing the listening while they're standing up front doing the talking.

The moment you realize that these leaders are WRONG, is the moment that you're able to think for yourself; and something should click in your mind that your whole way of thinking needs to change.

Funny thing about Pat Robertson...I don't know anyone who likes Pat Robertson, Christian or not...I'm surprised you thought people here would love him.

I think that the way things come across on this board make us (Christians) seem much more extreme and evangelical than we actually are. For instance, I have God in my everyday life but rarely...very rarely...do I discuss religion or God with anyone. If you were to work with me you probably wouldn't (unless you asked) think about me as a religious person at all. I am very non-judgmental and have never, ever, tried to convince someone that there is a God, nor have I had anyone ever try to convince me that there isn't one.

I'd be willing to bet that it's the same for most of the people involved in these discussions, that our religious views would never cross your mind in day to day life.

As far as why we attend certain churches, I can't speak for anyone but myself. I think of myself as non-denominational (as stated on my dog tags). When I "choose" a church (though I haven't been in years) I choose one where the preacher simply preaches. When one becomes judgmental I no longer attend. Once one starts preaching about giving money to the church I no longer attend. I want to hear different points of views of the bible, not be told that there is only one "right" way to do things.

The church I attended as a kid was very "relaxed" (Church of Christ). The preacher did NOT get paid by the church. He had a 5 day a week job and preached on Sundays because he enjoyed doing it. During football season he was always sure to have the service done by 12:30 so we could be home in time for football. People wore jeans, shorts, etc...and casual was accepted (accepted is a poor word as what we wore wasn't even ever thought of as an issue).

As far as the leaders being wrong, I agree. That's why the churches I've attended don't have a "leader". They have a guy who reads bible verses and gives a short sermon. I wouldn't even consider it preachy. It's more of a bible study conversation.

SomeRandomGuy
05-17-2013, 01:32 PM
Pat Robertson is one of the leaders of the religious right.

I thought people here would love him.

Though, I must say this: I really do wonder why this doesn't have Christians questioning religion.

I know why Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Lutherans go to church every week: it's a celebration of the eucharist. Communion is what it's centered around. Catholics and Eastern Orthodox believe in transubstantiation of the bread and wine (bread and wine, in whole, becomes the body and blood of Christ), and Lutherans believe in consubstantiation (the bread and wine has the body and blood of Christ IN it).

For non-Lutheran Protestants... you go there for the sole purpose of letting the preacher preach. Because he or she knows more about the God and the Bible than you do. And if you don't believe that they know more than you do, then why are you there?

So, someone who knows more about God and the Bible than you do says that a man is a man, and men cheat; so get over it.

Do Christians accept this? Or do they move onto another church, so that the pastor there can tell them something else that's totally off-the-wall? You're not as knowledgeable as they are; that's why you're sitting in the pews doing the listening while they're standing up front doing the talking.

The moment you realize that these leaders are WRONG, is the moment that you're able to think for yourself; and something should click in your mind that your whole way of thinking needs to change.

Just FYI the reason most protestants go to church is to encourage one another. It is sort of the "herd survival" mentality. They believe that by meeting weekly or several times per week they can encourage one another and become stronger christians. Let me turn the scenario into a different situation. I assume that you are married and probably have children. Since you are a family there is no reason to have gatherings unless you are performing some tradition right? I am guessing if someone belived that their family life would fall apart quickly and likely end. Most christians believe it is their duty to not only strengthen their relationship with God but also help others do the same.

Not arguing with what you are saying just pointing out the reason since you brought it up.

20+Years
05-17-2013, 01:38 PM
"Those people who somehow "find God" in the foxhole? They probably had God the whole time."

I wouldn't disagree with this statement completely. I would have to put some thought into; did they have God the whole time, or had they just not closed that door as an option? Either way, I think they "find God" because they realize that they are truly not in control of thier life at that moment, so they find hope in a higher power.

I think one of the common differences I see between those who believe and don't believe is the need/want/desire to know there is something that exists that is greater than ones self. Some people need it, some people don't.

Some people will look at the world, the countryside, the universe, and want to know somehow it was all made with intent, others believe it evolved. Some people need it, some people don't.

Some people want to think that life will go on after death. If you go to heaven, and time goes on forever, the stop on this earth will have been very short in the grand scheme of things. Others think that existence winks out at death.


I know of only one way we will all get the right answer, and we will all learn it eventually.

SomeRandomGuy
05-17-2013, 05:29 PM
I know of only one way we will all get the right answer, and we will all learn it eventually.

Why are you keeping this a secret? I need to know immidiatly. What do I have to do to find out?

sandsjames
05-17-2013, 05:43 PM
Why are you keeping this a secret? I need to know immidiatly. What do I have to do to find out?

Die..........

20+Years
05-17-2013, 06:55 PM
yup........

20+Years
05-17-2013, 08:18 PM
I guess for anyone who believes in no after life they should be living each day to its absolute limit. How could you just meander through life knowing thats all you had? Wasting a precious resource from my point of view.

sandsjames
05-17-2013, 09:05 PM
I agree.

- Why would someone who truly believes in Heaven and Hell be content to "not talk about religion" to people they know and/or care about because it causes problems on the job?? Wouldn't those problems be so minor in the grand scheme of things? Are you okay watching your loved ones go to hell because you didn't want to discharged or made fun of? Unless of course you just believe that the most effective way to spread God's word is to not talk about it.Absolutely right. That's exactly why many continue to knock on your door, pray at functions, etc...because they are willing to take the criticism. If I was a "good" Christian I would do the same.



- Why would any believer try to earn money when the Bible says it's difficult for the rich to go to heaven? Not anyone trying to earn money. Just those trying to become rich. I don't hold it against them...not for me to judge. You'll see many conversations on here about money and how happy I am not to have any savings account, etc and being very satisfied living on a very minimal amount of money. I've been criticized many times for not "planning". I see it as making enough to survive and nothing more.

Pullinteeth
05-21-2013, 04:02 PM
A sappi plate, a clean rifle, or even a pair of goggles will provide actual real-life protection.

WHOO-HOO!!!!!!!! This post made my week... Joe finally admitted that guns=good....

Pullinteeth
05-21-2013, 05:20 PM
Klingenschmitt...I knew that name sounded familiar:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/14/AR2006091401544.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/21/gordon-klingenschmitt-dadt-repeal_n_812131.html

That can't be true....according to Joe, Republicans are all extremist Christians that want to force prayer on everyone... According to these articles, G.W. Bush ignored the "request" to issue an executive order on his behalf....

"Over the past year, Klingenschmitt worked closely with Rep. Walter B. Jones Jr. (R-N.C.) and other members of Congress to push the Bush administration to issue an executive order guaranteeing the right of chaplains to pray "in the name of Jesus." So far, the White House has rebuffed the request."

meatbringer
05-21-2013, 05:43 PM
I agree.

Similarly, anyone who believes in God and Life After Death, should really be unconcerned about anything in this world and should truly be living every minute for their God. I mean, life on earth would be a small spec in relation to eternity.

- Why would someone who truly believes in Heaven and Hell be content to "not talk about religion" to people they know and/or care about because it causes problems on the job?? Wouldn't those problems be so minor in the grand scheme of things? Are you okay watching your loved ones go to hell because you didn't want to discharged or made fun of? Unless of course you just believe that the most effective way to spread God's word is to not talk about it.

- The baby one really gets me...most Christians I know say babies go to heaven when they die. So, I can really understand the logic of Andrea Yates there...if you believed babies go to heaven for eternity, and had children...them growing up only gives them a chance to screw up their eternity...why not take them out while you can? Eternity is a much longer time than the 85 years on earth.

- Why would any believer try to earn money when the Bible says it's difficult for the rich to go to heaven?

-

Why? Because it's all bullshit. People only believe in the parts of the religion that they want to. Think of any rapper going up onstage to accept an award. They always thank "God" or "Jesus" for enabling them to promote violence and degrade women for TONS of money. All the while they wear millions of dollars worth of diamonds that people died for. Another example is any wealthy politician or businessman who goes around talking religious bullshit. If Magic Sky Man actually existed, he would hate all of them. Also, I'm pretty sure Magic Sky Man would not condone the existence of a military, let alone having his awesome name associated with any of military practices.

JD2780
05-21-2013, 05:55 PM
Why? Because it's all bullshit. People only believe in the parts of the religion that they want to. Think of any rapper going up onstage to accept an award. They always thank "God" or "Jesus" for enabling them to promote violence and degrade women for TONS of money. All the while they wear millions of dollars worth of diamonds that people died for. Another example is any wealthy politician or businessman who goes around talking religious bullshit. If Magic Sky Man actually existed, he would hate all of them. Also, I'm pretty sure Magic Sky Man would not condone the existence of a military, let alone having his awesome name associated with any of military practices.

What about the poor family where the bread winner got laid off? They're barely getting by yet they still thank God for keeping the family together through the hard times?

Rusty Jones
05-21-2013, 05:58 PM
What about the poor family where the bread winner got laid off? They're barely getting by yet they still thank God for keeping the family together through the hard times?

http://www.wakeupworld.ca/uploads/5/3/5/9/5359817/272153250.jpg?516

Rusty Jones
05-21-2013, 05:59 PM
What about the poor family where the bread winner got laid off? They're barely getting by yet they still thank God for keeping the family together through the hard times?

http://www.wakeupworld.ca/uploads/5/3/5/9/5359817/272153250.jpg?516

.........................

JD2780
05-21-2013, 06:06 PM
http://www.wakeupworld.ca/uploads/5/3/5/9/5359817/272153250.jpg?516

.........................

Yup, and there are missionaries in those countries trying to feed those folks, and then there are the warlords trying to kill those same missionaries. Those hateful Christians.

JD2780
05-21-2013, 06:10 PM
http://singtothelordanewsong.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/5282.jpg

Oh wow, you use a cartoon family. Good work.

Maybe it is their faith holding a family together joe. Just keep being hypocritical JB it's ok.

Rusty Jones
05-21-2013, 06:10 PM
Yup, and there are missionaries in those countries trying to feed those folks, and then there are the warlords trying to kill those same missionaries. Those hateful Christians.

This isn't about Christians. This is about Jesus. Ah yes, good ol' Jesus. He'll help a lady find her car keys. He'll help a multimillionaire quarterback throw a touchdown pass, so he can be worth even more millions.

But a starving kid in a third world country? Fuck him.

sandsjames
05-21-2013, 06:20 PM
This isn't about Christians. This is about Jesus. Ah yes, good ol' Jesus. He'll help a lady find her car keys. He'll help a multimillionaire quarterback throw a touchdown pass, so he can be worth even more millions.

But a starving kid in a third world country? Fuck him.

Do you not realize that this has to do with people, not Jesus? The people are the ones assuming who Jesus is and isn't helping. Yet you, and people like you, will try to make it out like, if there IS a God/Jesus, he is the one killing people. Your arguments and comments are a joke.

sandsjames
05-21-2013, 06:21 PM
Its easy - and I fall into this myself - to tease believers for being uneducated and ignorant. While this is all true - they're not the enemy. The REAL enemy are the churches, the religious leaders - who brainwash these poor people, deliberately sabatoge the education system, and trick gullible Christians into giving them money.

Destroy the church - we free the thought slaves.

Sorry your religious experience was so bad. I'd love to know which priest/preacher it was who took advantage of you as a child.

JD2780
05-21-2013, 06:21 PM
Always the Christians? Hmm that's a bit overreaching JB.

sandsjames
05-21-2013, 06:26 PM
Do they put atheist on dog tags?

You can, if you choose.

Rusty Jones
05-21-2013, 06:29 PM
Its easy - and I fall into this myself - to tease believers for being uneducated and ignorant. While this is all true - they're not the enemy. The REAL enemy are the churches, the religious leaders - who brainwash these poor people, deliberately sabatoge the education system, and trick gullible Christians into giving them money.

Destroy the church - we free the thought slaves.

Very true. Because pews may be full of sheeple, but the man whose name is preceded by "reverend" sure as hell isn't. Everything you and I have spoken of, in terms of the history of and being Judaism and Christianity - the "eye opening" stuff - these pastors know about ALL of it. They're taught this stuff in the seminaries.

Yet, you don't hear them talking about these things in their sermons, do you? Bwahahaha!!!

sandsjames
05-21-2013, 06:29 PM
If didn't feed my cat, and he died - I could actually be arrested and prosecuted for animal abuse/neglect. Yet Magic Sky Man allows BILLIONS of people to die, when he could easily stop it - yet you're cool with that?
WTF are you talking about? He doesn't "let" people die. He lets people make choices that have consequences. Would you rather a God who controls everything we do? Yes, I'm cool with Him letting us live our lives, make our own decisions, and deal with those choices.



Its funny how its the "peace loving Christians" who bring up rape, sexual abuse, etc - first. That's some sick minds you guys got.Who brought up rape or sexual abuse?

JD2780
05-21-2013, 06:31 PM
Very true. Because pews may be full of sheeple, but the man whose name is preceded by "reverend" sure as hell isn't. Everything you and I have spoken of, in terms of the history of and being Judaism and Christianity - the "eye opening" stuff - these pastors know about ALL of it. They're taught this stuff in the seminaries.

Yet, you don't hear them talking about these things in their sermons, do you? Bwahahaha!!!

You don't? Funny in my church, the pastor refers to many things he was taught in seminary.