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View Full Version : Army Removes Bible Reference from Scopes



drc100882
04-23-2013, 05:50 AM
I believe this is the dumbest thing I've ever read. Who honestly cares if there's a Bible verse on the scope of a rifle? Are we serious here? And the fact that there's instructions AND photos on how to do this makes it even better. I'm willing to bet that 99% of people using these scopes didn't even know it was on there. I guess TACOM has a lot of time on their hands.

"The U.S. Army is directing troops to remove a Bible inscription that a vendor etched into the serial numbers of weapon scopes, Fox News has learned. Soldiers at Fort Wainwright in Alaska told Fox News they received a directive to turn in their scopes so the Bible references could be removed. After the letters and numbers were scrapped off, soldiers were directed to use apply black paint to ensure the verses were totally covered.
“The vendor etched those inscriptions on scopes without the Army’s approval,” Army spokesman Matthew Bourke told Fox in a written statement. “Consequently, the modified scopes did not meet the requirement under which the contract was executed.”
Bourke said the vendor agreed to remove all Bible references on future deliveries.
“Some of these scopes had already been fielded,” Bourke explained. “Corrective measures were taken to remove inscriptions during the RESET/PRESET process in order to avoid a disruption in combat operations.”

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/army-removes-bible-reference-from-scopes.html

USAF-Controller
04-23-2013, 03:31 PM
This is an old story actually. It's a problem because many soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan have reported people coming up to them and asking to see their "Jesus Rifle". It makes it look like we are fighting a Holy war.

Tak
04-23-2013, 03:39 PM
Dumbest think?

TJMAC77SP
04-23-2013, 04:30 PM
This is an old story actually. It's a problem because many soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan have reported people coming up to them and asking to see their "Jesus Rifle". It makes it look like we are fighting a Holy war.

Which they are doing because some asshat made it a story.

Greg
04-23-2013, 05:16 PM
Which they are doing because some asshat made it a story.

Exactly:

"One of the Fort Wainwright soldiers who received the order to remove the inscription told Fox News that hardly anyone was aware of the religious reference."

OtisRNeedleman
04-24-2013, 02:17 AM
That's today's Army...more concerned about political correctness than accomplishing the mission. The past couple of Saturdays at the commissary have been listening to some Army colonel babbling over the PA system about the upcoming Earth Day. Thought the money spent making a big deal out of Earth Day Army-wide would be better used for actual mission accomplishment.

106PADDOCK
04-24-2013, 02:46 AM
Answer this question, isn't there an inspection made on items received from contractors to insure the items meet the specifications of the contract? Were these items inspected at any level before being issued and the source receiving payment? Yes, this an old story but , I think these are reasonable questions.

OtisRNeedleman
04-24-2013, 06:04 AM
Answer this question, isn't there an inspection made on items received from contractors to insure the items meet the specifications of the contract? Were these items inspected at any level before being issued and the source receiving payment? Yes, this an old story but , I think these are reasonable questions. Agree. Have participated in a number of system acceptance tests to ensure the system met specs before the government would accept it. I'd expect that every scope should have been inspected before government acceptance.

Measure Man
04-24-2013, 06:43 AM
Answer this question, isn't there an inspection made on items received from contractors to insure the items meet the specifications of the contract? Were these items inspected at any level before being issued and the source receiving payment? Yes, this an old story but , I think these are reasonable questions.


Agree. Have participated in a number of system acceptance tests to ensure the system met specs before the government would accept it. I'd expect that every scope should have been inspected before government acceptance.

Not always...I've done several acceptance tests where the govt inspects the first batch, or first item in some cases, and the rest are direct-shipped from the manufacturer to the field units and immediately placed into service.

106PADDOCK
04-24-2013, 08:02 AM
Not always...I've done several acceptance tests where the govt inspects the first batch, or first item in some cases, and the rest are direct-shipped from the manufacturer to the field units and immediately placed into service.

I just thought that in the PC world of today's military, somewhere along the road these markings would have been noticed by someone in the supply/purchasing chain and acted upon before fielding. Just my Pollyanna $.02 worth.

TJMAC77SP
04-24-2013, 11:52 AM
Most contracts where a company makes an item for the government, the contract requires a UID (Unique Identification), or also IUID (Item Unique Identification) to be put on the item. We call that a serial number. It can be anything the manufacturer desires, as long as it is unique for each item. My guess is that someone in the company mentioned their particular UID system to someone else who mentioned it to someone else..............

For example (actual example) 32JN8:12 (John 8:12).

No one without foreknowledge would have ever figured this out anymore than seeing the shape of Jesus in a grilled cheese sandwich. It was a nothing bullshit story and still is.

Absinthe Anecdote
04-24-2013, 01:39 PM
That's today's Army...more concerned about political correctness than accomplishing the mission. The past couple of Saturdays at the commissary have been listening to some Army colonel babbling over the PA system about the upcoming Earth Day. Thought the money spent making a big deal out of Earth Day Army-wide would be better used for actual mission accomplishment.

Earth Day is a pretty big deal because our home planet is sad and frowning.

Also, it is the only planet that the Army currently operates on so if we don’t take care of it there will be no mission.

There are a lot of things you can do with your shopping choices in the commissary to make our planet happy and smiling again.
Buying dolphin-friendly tuna is one thing that will make mother earth smile!

Of course the tuna would prefer that you buy tuna-friendly tuna; which is just a big hunk of tofu flavored with artificial sardine oil.

technomage1
04-24-2013, 02:20 PM
This first came up 2 years ago. Why has it taken this long to remove the verses, and why did the army continue to accept scopes with the verses on them after the issue was brought to light? Those are the real questions here. I understand needing to examine the best and non disruptive to combat ops way to remove them, but 2 years? It honestly sound like the issue was conveniently forgotten...

Ace Airspeed
04-24-2013, 03:12 PM
Most contracts where a company makes an item for the government, the contract requires a UID (Unique Identification), or also IUID (Item Unique Identification) to be put on the item. We call that a serial number. It can be anything the manufacturer desires, as long as it is unique for each item. My guess is that someone in the company mentioned their particular UID system to someone else who mentioned it to someone else..............

For example (actual example) 32JN8:12 (John 8:12).

No one without foreknowledge would have ever figured this out anymore than seeing the shape of Jesus in a grilled cheese sandwich. It was a nothing bullshit story and still is.

I work in acquisition and accept product for the DoD. I completely agree with you, TJ. This is much to do about absolutely nothing.

106PADDOCK
04-24-2013, 10:40 PM
I work in acquisition and accept product for the DoD. I completely agree with you, TJ. This is much to do about absolutely nothing.

I agree with both of you, I was just thinking how & why did this nonissue become an issue.

OtisRNeedleman
04-25-2013, 02:09 AM
Earth Day is a pretty big deal because our home planet is sad and frowning.

Also, it is the only planet that the Army currently operates on so if we don’t take care of it there will be no mission.

There are a lot of things you can do with your shopping choices in the commissary to make our planet happy and smiling again.
Buying dolphin-friendly tuna is one thing that will make mother earth smile!

Of course the tuna would prefer that you buy tuna-friendly tuna; which is just a big hunk of tofu flavored with artificial sardine oil.

Nothing wrong with Earth Day. I was in high school for the first one.

However, in this supposedly austere funding environment it behooves the Army to spend every dollar toward actual military operational and maintenance requirements.

OtisRNeedleman
04-25-2013, 02:10 AM
I agree with both of you, I was just thinking how & why did this nonissue become an issue.

Maybe someone just wanted to look good on their performance report.

OtisRNeedleman
04-25-2013, 02:19 AM
Not always...I've done several acceptance tests where the govt inspects the first batch, or first item in some cases, and the rest are direct-shipped from the manufacturer to the field units and immediately placed into service.

I stand corrected. I worked in large-scale computer-based training system acquisition, some years ago. At that time, depending on the size of the system, either the entire system or an increment of the system was acceptance tested. Your point is well taken.

Banned
04-25-2013, 03:51 PM
Why is this something to get hot and bothered over? The enemy is going to find ways to make us look bad, why make it easy for them? Nobody is going to support us if we look like a bunch of crusading assholes.

Fighting religious extremists is a touchy subject. There's billions of Muslims around the world, so its pretty important to target the select few who are actively fighting us without riling up the rest of them. The majority of Americans are Christian, so invading multiple Islamic countries can create the perception that we are fighting a Christian holy war against Islam - obviously that perception is extremely detrimental to us and needs to be avoided.

There are two battlefields - the physical one and the moral one. We need to win the moral one, no matter how many bombs and tanks we have.

Absinthe Anecdote
04-25-2013, 04:35 PM
Nothing wrong with Earth Day. I was in high school for the first one.

However, in this supposedly austere funding environment it behooves the Army to spend every dollar toward actual military operational and maintenance requirements.

That Earth Day Colonel was being paid to babble over the commissary PA system from another pot of money, therefore it wasn’t wasteful.
Now go back to eating your tofu.

Absinthe Anecdote
04-25-2013, 04:58 PM
Why is this something to get hot and bothered over? The enemy is going to find ways to make us look bad, why make it easy for them? Nobody is going to support us if we look like a bunch of crusading assholes.

Fighting religious extremists is a touchy subject. There's billions of Muslims around the world, so its pretty important to target the select few who are actively fighting us without riling up the rest of them. The majority of Americans are Christian, so invading multiple Islamic countries can create the perception that we are fighting a Christian holy war against Islam - obviously that perception is extremely detrimental to us and needs to be avoided.

There are two battlefields - the physical one and the moral one. We need to win the moral one, no matter how many bombs and tanks we have.

So the fierce eyed, bearded Imam in the mountains of Northwest Pakistan is going to come to the conclusion that his ideology, philosophy and religion are all wrong and that he has lost the moral battle with those pesky Americans.

How do we get him to concede this battle of morals to us?

Maybe we could plaster the hills of Pakistan with coexist bumper stickers?

Yes! The fierce eyed, bearded Imam concedes the moral battle, gives up jihad and moves into a brownstone apartment building in NYC. He and his five burqa clad wives live right next door to the cosmopolitan gay couple and they often meet in the hallway and have friendly chats about the weather.

Sounds plausible.
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/c0.0.851.315/p851x315/704735_4569543953209_1580747009_o.jpg

TJMAC77SP
04-25-2013, 05:31 PM
Why is this something to get hot and bothered over? The enemy is going to find ways to make us look bad, why make it easy for them? Nobody is going to support us if we look like a bunch of crusading assholes.

Fighting religious extremists is a touchy subject. There's billions of Muslims around the world, so its pretty important to target the select few who are actively fighting us without riling up the rest of them. The majority of Americans are Christian, so invading multiple Islamic countries can create the perception that we are fighting a Christian holy war against Islam - obviously that perception is extremely detrimental to us and needs to be avoided.

There are two battlefields - the physical one and the moral one. We need to win the moral one, no matter how many bombs and tanks we have.



Joe, it seems to me that the only people hot and bothered over this are people who took exception to the method that Trijicon took in serializing their products.

In the minds of some, we will never win the moral battle.

sandsjames
04-25-2013, 05:39 PM
Earth Day is a pretty big deal because our home planet is sad and frowning.

Also, it is the only planet that the Army currently operates on so if we don’t take care of it there will be no mission.

There are a lot of things you can do with your shopping choices in the commissary to make our planet happy and smiling again.
Buying dolphin-friendly tuna is one thing that will make mother earth smile!

Of course the tuna would prefer that you buy tuna-friendly tuna; which is just a big hunk of tofu flavored with artificial sardine oil.

Thank you for the gay post of the week. And I don't mean gay gay, I mean flamin' gay (not that there's anything wrong with that).

sandsjames
04-25-2013, 05:41 PM
Oh, thank you!

Would you care for some tuna-friendly tuna?

I would not. And I would also not like any quinoa either. What the hell is going on with that fad?

Absinthe Anecdote
04-25-2013, 05:41 PM
Thank you for the gay post of the week. And I don't mean gay gay, I mean flamin' gay (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Oh, thank you!

Would you care for some tuna-friendly tuna?

Absinthe Anecdote
04-25-2013, 06:02 PM
I would not. And I would also not like any quinoa either. What the hell is going on with that fad?

I don’t know but the Huffington Post has a pretty good recipe for it. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/19/quinoa-recipe-how-cook_n_3110791.html

It should come in handy once the “Coexist” bumper sticker program kicks in and starts bearing fruit. When a Taliban tribal chieftain moves in next door to you, you can cook up some quinoa for him. Joe Bonham and his blue haired girlfriend will probably stop by and drop of some goat cheese.

sandsjames
04-25-2013, 06:08 PM
I don’t know but the Huffington Post has a pretty good recipe for it. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/19/quinoa-recipe-how-cook_n_3110791.html

It should come in handy once the “Coexist” bumper sticker program kicks in and starts bearing fruit. When a Taliban tribal chieftain moves in next door to you, you can cook up some quinoa for him. Joe Bonham and his blue haired girlfriend will probably stop by and drop of some goat cheese.

I don't think she is his girlfriend. My guess would be that she is someone he stalks or he is her "non-threatening male friend". I'm doubting she's even into guys.

Absinthe Anecdote
04-25-2013, 06:28 PM
I don't think she is his girlfriend. My guess would be that she is someone he stalks or he is her "non-threatening male friend". I'm doubting she's even into guys.

Either way, the Taliban tribal chieftain will appreciate the quinoa and goat cheese. You’ll all have a good laugh out by the backyard fence.
Later the trendy gay couple will stop by and invite you all out to go antiquing.
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/c0.0.851.315/p851x315/704735_4569543953209_1580747009_o.jpg

drc100882
04-25-2013, 06:43 PM
I'm not really sure that the guy that gets killed by the rifle with this scope on it cares that the inscription is on it. I think the guy that's shooting the rifle saw it, got offended by something he thinks isn't real, and complained. The bullshit about it being on our weapons as we're fighting in a non-Christian country is just that - bullshit. We're not handing out Bibles and crosses. It's not a holy war for us. We're not fighting in the name of God - they are. So really to kill us in the name of their God is a holy war against us. Now there's an interesting point. They can do whatever they want in the name of their God but holy shit! We can't have an inscription on a scope.

OtisRNeedleman
04-25-2013, 06:46 PM
That Earth Day Colonel was being paid to babble over the commissary PA system from another pot of money, therefore it wasn’t wasteful.
Now go back to eating your tofu.

I've been eating tofu since 1974.

Far as I'm concerned the money could have been better used.

TJMAC77SP
04-25-2013, 06:48 PM
I don't think she is his girlfriend. My guess would be that she is someone he stalks or he is her "non-threatening male friend". I'm doubting she's even into guys.

In my mind she is into middle aged guys...........

Absinthe Anecdote
04-25-2013, 06:48 PM
In my mind she is into middle aged guys...........

No, much older Taliban tribal chieftains with fierce eyes and henna dyed beards.

Banned
04-27-2013, 04:13 PM
So the fierce eyed, bearded Imam in the mountains of Northwest Pakistan is going to come to the conclusion that his ideology, philosophy and religion are all wrong and that he has lost the moral battle with those pesky Americans.

How do we get him to concede this battle of morals to us?

Maybe we could plaster the hills of Pakistan with coexist bumper stickers?

Yes! The fierce eyed, bearded Imam concedes the moral battle, gives up jihad and moves into a brownstone apartment building in NYC. He and his five burqa clad wives live right next door to the cosmopolitan gay couple and they often meet in the hallway and have friendly chats about the weather.

Sounds plausible.
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/c0.0.851.315/p851x315/704735_4569543953209_1580747009_o.jpg

Its not the imam we are targeting, it is the general population.

Fact is most people in the Middle East are extremely religious - so it should be no surprise that they are also extremely ignorant (most religious people are ignorant) - so even something that may seem small and trivial to us - like putting bible references on a scope, would seem much more serious to people who pray all the time and believe in imaginary fairies and gods living up in the clouds.

And lets be honest here - why would a christian even put bible verses on a scope, which is used to kill people? The motivations here are questionable.

Banned
04-27-2013, 04:15 PM
I don’t know but the Huffington Post has a pretty good recipe for it. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/19/quinoa-recipe-how-cook_n_3110791.html

It should come in handy once the “Coexist” bumper sticker program kicks in and starts bearing fruit. When a Taliban tribal chieftain moves in next door to you, you can cook up some quinoa for him. Joe Bonham and his blue haired girlfriend will probably stop by and drop of some goat cheese.

Your fear and paranioa are telling. You are a true christian.


Joe, it seems to me that the only people hot and bothered over this are people who took exception to the method that Trijicon took in serializing their products.

In the minds of some, we will never win the moral battle.

So you are not bothered by the fact that this was used as propaganda by the Taliban, and that these serial numbers probably directly contributed to the deaths of Americans?

Absinthe Anecdote
04-28-2013, 06:21 PM
Your fear and paranioa are telling. You are a true christian.

I’m just imagining the multi-cultural utopia we’d all have if we would all just coexist!

You can’t see yourself and your blue haired cutie sharing goat cheese with the fierce eyed bearded Imam and his five wives out by the backyard fence?

You shouldn’t have disdain for the Imam just because he believes in flying horses named Barack, anymore than you should harbor ill will for Baptist minister who has a bible verse inscribed upon his rifle scope.

I can see the blue haired atheist sitting down to break bread with the pierced gothic pagan while the trendy gay couple cooks simulated BBQ ribs for the Baptist minister.

The Imam wanders over to ask a question about the Goth’s tongue stud and is offered a BBQ rib. It’s okay, exclaims the elderly university professor in a tweed sport coat, there made of tofu!

The scene closes on the whole group sharing a hearty chuckle. The next thing you know they are all in a 1970-ish style band singing songs about friendship and good nutrition. You know, the way those old crappy cartoons used to end.

I don’t know Joe; maybe you’re being close minded?

Imagine! It’s easy if you try.

Tak
04-28-2013, 06:37 PM
A @#$%ing Men

Banned
04-28-2013, 09:36 PM
I’m just imagining the multi-cultural utopia we’d all have if we would all just coexist!

You can’t see yourself and your blue haired cutie sharing goat cheese with the fierce eyed bearded Imam and his five wives out by the backyard fence?

You shouldn’t have disdain for the Imam just because he believes in flying horses named Barack, anymore than you should harbor ill will for Baptist minister who has a bible verse inscribed upon his rifle scope.

I can see the blue haired atheist sitting down to break bread with the pierced gothic pagan while the trendy gay couple cooks simulated BBQ ribs for the Baptist minister.

The Imam wanders over to ask a question about the Goth’s tongue stud and is offered a BBQ rib. It’s okay, exclaims the elderly university professor in a tweed sport coat, there made of tofu!

The scene closes on the whole group sharing a hearty chuckle. The next thing you know they are all in a 1970-ish style band singing songs about friendship and good nutrition. You know, the way those old crappy cartoons used to end.

I don’t know Joe; maybe you’re being close minded?

Imagine! It’s easy if you try.

We actually agree on that one. We would already be co-existing with Islam if we stopped arming ruthless dictators, overthrowing democracies, and bombing women and children.

As a matter in fact, if we simply STOPPED massacring men, women, and children in the Middle East... relations would dramatically improve almost immediately.

You're actually being perfectly reasonable on this point... even if by accident. :)

Max Power
04-28-2013, 10:30 PM
We actually agree on that one. We would already be co-existing with Islam if we stopped arming ruthless dictators, overthrowing democracies, and bombing women and children.

As a matter in fact, if we simply STOPPED massacring men, women, and children in the Middle East... relations would dramatically improve almost immediately.

You're actually being perfectly reasonable on this point... even if by accident. :)

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/37338225.jpg

Banned
04-29-2013, 12:18 AM
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/37338225.jpg

I love this meme.

Pueblo
04-29-2013, 07:12 AM
I believe this is the dumbest thing I've ever read. Who honestly cares if there's a Bible verse on the scope of a rifle?

Apparently the manufacturer cared enough to devote time and resources to printing them on the scope.

TJMAC77SP
04-29-2013, 08:42 PM
Apparently the manufacturer cared enough to devote time and resources to printing them on the scope.

Your point (in reference to the disccusson)?

TJMAC77SP
04-29-2013, 08:44 PM
Your fear and paranioa are telling. You are a true christian.



So you are not bothered by the fact that this was used as propaganda by the Taliban, and that these serial numbers probably directly contributed to the deaths of Americans?

Nice try Joe.

I put it in the same category as the 'sacrilege' of us burning Korans (although that is an approved method of destruction). It’s a made up story about a made up affront. They might as well as say our allowing TCYB in Afghanistan is an affront to their religion. I personally think vanilla is a mind control substance to turn all Muslims into Born Again Christians.

Asinine and discussing it only adds to the fire.

Banned
04-29-2013, 10:57 PM
Your point (in reference to the disccusson)?

I think you know. Why did the manufactorer do this? What honest motivation could he possibly have had? I find it a bit disturbing that a person would be putting Bible verses on weapons parts.


Nice try Joe.

I put it in the same category as the 'sacrilege' of us burning Korans (although that is an approved method of destruction). It’s a made up story about a made up affront. They might as well as say our allowing TCYB in Afghanistan is an affront to their religion. I personally think vanilla is a mind control substance to turn all Muslims into Born Again Christians.


The best propaganda is propaganda based on truth. Sure, telling people that we're fire breathing monkeys who eat Muslim babies is a great story, but won't have much of an effect because it has no basis in reality.

Evil Imperialist Christians putting Bible verses on their weapons they use to slaughter Muslims... THAT however is a good story, and good propaganda, and is partially based on truth.


Asinine and discussing it only adds to the fire.

I find it interesting that your solution to everything seems to be simply to not talk about it and prevent anyone from finding out.

Except in this case - Al Jazeera broke the story. Believe it or not, the people outside of the USA aren't morons, and are capable of finding out stuff even if the American media suppresses the story.

Maybe your next suggestion is to bomb Al Jazeera if they report things we don't like (oops, we already did that)

Measure Man
04-29-2013, 11:51 PM
I wonder if there would be an uproar if a company used "666" as the prefix to their serial numbers?

Banned
04-30-2013, 12:58 AM
I wonder if there would be an uproar if a company used "666" as the prefix to their serial numbers?

The company in question are devout Christian zealots. I find it unlikely the government would give a multi-million dollar contract to Satanists... though it would certainly be funny if they did.

Banned
04-30-2013, 12:59 AM
Hmmm zealots.

We believe that America is great when its people are good. This goodness has been based on biblical standards throughout our history and we will strive to follow those morals.

-Trijicon Mission Statement.

Oh and mind you - this is a company that builds things used to kill people.

JD2780
04-30-2013, 01:00 AM
The company in question are devout Christian zealots. I find it unlikely the government would give a multi-million dollar contract to Satanists... though it would certainly be funny if they did.

Hmmm zealots.

Banned
04-30-2013, 01:04 AM
Hmmm zealots.

We believe that America is great when its people are good. This goodness has been based on biblical standards throughout our history and we will strive to follow those morals.

-Trijicon Mission Statement. (http://www.trijicon.com/na_en/company/mission.php)

Oh and mind you... this is a company that builds things used to kill people.

Pueblo
04-30-2013, 07:42 AM
Your point (in reference to the disccusson)?

That those who are endorsing the "Who cares?" argument are turning a blind eye to the great care the manufacturer has put into the production of these phrases on its scopes.

Pullinteeth
05-01-2013, 03:20 AM
Your fear and paranioa are telling. You are a true christian.



So you are not bothered by the fact that this was used as propaganda by the Taliban, and that these serial numbers probably directly contributed to the deaths of Americans?

Where are you getting that it had anything to do with the serial numbers? It was just some letters and numbers printed on the damn things.... Was it the wrong move? Probably... Did it have to be a big deal? Certainty not...

Banned
05-01-2013, 04:34 AM
Where are you getting that it had anything to do with the serial numbers? It was just some letters and numbers printed on the damn things.... Was it the wrong move? Probably... Did it have to be a big deal? Certainty not...

It became a big deal when Middle Eastern media discovered the serial numbers, and published the story in international news.

sandsjames
05-01-2013, 06:23 AM
It became a big deal when Middle Eastern media discovered the serial numbers, and published the story in international news.

We should complain about them displaying symbols of their religion. That'll show 'em...oh...wait, we'll defend their right to follow their beliefs, even so far as forcing our women to cover their faces...but a bible verse...look out!...

Banned
05-01-2013, 07:33 AM
We should complain about them displaying symbols of their religion. That'll show 'em...oh...wait, we'll defend their right to follow their beliefs, even so far as forcing our women to cover their faces...but a bible verse...look out!...

Okay really? Us complain about their religious symbols? That's like the rapist complaining to the rape victim.

TJMAC77SP
05-01-2013, 03:01 PM
I think you know. Why did the manufactorer do this? What honest motivation could he possibly have had? I find it a bit disturbing that a person would be putting Bible verses on weapons parts.



The best propaganda is propaganda based on truth. Sure, telling people that we're fire breathing monkeys who eat Muslim babies is a great story, but won't have much of an effect because it has no basis in reality.

Evil Imperialist Christians putting Bible verses on their weapons they use to slaughter Muslims... THAT however is a good story, and good propaganda, and is partially based on truth.



I find it interesting that your solution to everything seems to be simply to not talk about it and prevent anyone from finding out.

Except in this case - Al Jazeera broke the story. Believe it or not, the people outside of the USA aren't morons, and are capable of finding out stuff even if the American media suppresses the story.

Maybe your next suggestion is to bomb Al Jazeera if they report things we don't like (oops, we already did that)

The convoluted reference to bible vs were on scopes not weapons. To cite it as you do is exactly what I am speaking of. It is as true as my reference to TCBY as a corrupting influence.

All of your typcial bullshit aside regarding bombing Al Jazeera and the attempt to derail the actual point, they did not 'break the story'. I believe ABC was the first to report on the story.

Exactly how do you reach the conclusion that my "solution to everything seems to be simply to not talk about it and prevent anyone from finding out"? That is just plain bullshit Joe. You are really slipping lately.

TJMAC77SP
05-01-2013, 03:07 PM
We believe that America is great when its people are good. This goodness has been based on biblical standards throughout our history and we will strive to follow those morals.

-Trijicon Mission Statement.

Oh and mind you - this is a company that builds things used to kill people.

So you think the mission statement reveals them to be zealots?

Is it safe to assume that the mere reference to the bible is your tipping point for that definition?

TJMAC77SP
05-01-2013, 03:10 PM
That those who are endorsing the "Who cares?" argument are turning a blind eye to the great care the manufacturer has put into the production of these phrases on its scopes.

I most definitely don't give a rat's ass about the religious beliefs of the management of Trijicon. Truthfully I don't think you should care either. If they were Budhists and had references to quotes from the Gautama Buddha would we still be having this discussion?

It was and is still a nothing story being perpetuated by those who want to push their own agenda. Those same people who rail when people like Beck and others latch on to some insigificant morsel from the Obama administration or other Democrats and make a similar huge deal out of nothing.

Banned
05-01-2013, 04:42 PM
So you think the mission statement reveals them to be zealots?

Is it safe to assume that the mere reference to the bible is your tipping point for that definition?

Absolutely - bronze age religious dogma has no place in a modern company contracted by the American government.


The convoluted reference to bible vs were on scopes not weapons. To cite it as you do is exactly what I am speaking of. It is as true as my reference to TCBY as a corrupting influence.

Oh good. You don't consider scopes to be weapons. Excellent. So what do we use the scopes for? Stamp collecting? Watching the ball game? Bird watching?


All of your typcial bullshit aside regarding bombing Al Jazeera and the attempt to derail the actual point, they did not 'break the story'. I believe ABC was the first to report on the story.

Hmmmmm. (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2010/01/20101211239216652.html)

Regardless of who did it first... it almost immediately became propaganda for the Taliban.


Exactly how do you reach the conclusion that my "solution to everything seems to be simply to not talk about it and prevent anyone from finding out"? That is just plain bullshit Joe. You are really slipping lately.

Your entire post seems to be just whining that the media had the nerve to talk about the story.

Banned
05-01-2013, 04:44 PM
[QUOTE=TJMAC77SP;621375]I most definitely don't give a rat's ass about the religious beliefs of the management of Trijicon. Truthfully I don't think you should care either.

You seem to have this Fascism thing refined to an art form.


If they were Budhists and had references to quotes from the Gautama Buddha would we still be having this discussion?

Nope... because Buddism is a philosophy, not a religion.


It was and is still a nothing story being perpetuated by those who want to push their own agenda. Those same people who rail when people like Beck and others latch on to some insigificant morsel from the Obama administration or other Democrats and make a similar huge deal out of nothing.

Look around you. YOU'RE the one making a huge whiny deal out of this. Those of us in favor of erasing the serial numbers are simply motivated by common sense. You're the one turning this into ideology.

You're so desperate to be ANTI-politically correct, you'll throw all reason and judgement under the bus.

Absinthe Anecdote
05-01-2013, 05:45 PM
[QUOTE]

You seem to have this Fascism thing refined to an art form.



Nope... because Buddism is a philosophy, not a religion.



Look around you. YOU'RE the one making a huge whiny deal out of this. Those of us in favor of erasing the serial numbers are simply motivated by common sense. You're the one turning this into ideology.

You're so desperate to be ANTI-politically correct, you'll throw all reason and judgement under the bus.

Why does that sentence remind me of anti-establishment ACLU radicals doing the same thing?

Banned
05-01-2013, 07:10 PM
Why does that sentence remind me of anti-establishment ACLU radicals doing the same thing?

"ACLU radicals"... you mean the legal group that defends Christians and gun rights?

imported_WILDJOKER5
05-01-2013, 07:22 PM
I just thought that in the PC world of today's military, somewhere along the road these markings would have been noticed by someone in the supply/purchasing chain and acted upon before fielding. Just my Pollyanna $.02 worth.

Probably was told that it didnt mean anything or that sending them back would be a hassle over something so mundane.

Pueblo
05-02-2013, 07:40 AM
It was and is still a nothing story being perpetuated by those who want to push their own agenda.

Doesn't unnecessarily etching biblical verses on a scope also constitute pushing one's agenda?

Absinthe Anecdote
05-02-2013, 12:59 PM
"ACLU radicals"... you mean the legal group that defends Christians and gun rights?

My memory is a little foggy this morning and my Google & Wiki skills are also on the fritz.

Can you help me out by citing one pro-gun rights lawsuit the ACLU has championed?

I’ll let you slide on the ACLU championing Christianity because they have probably supported some group like Westboro Baptist Church on first amendment rights.

Banned
05-02-2013, 04:34 PM
My memory is a little foggy this morning and my Google & Wiki skills are also on the fritz.

Can you help me out by citing one pro-gun rights lawsuit the ACLU has championed?

Hmm....


As Senate Democrats struggle to build support for new gun control legislation, the American Civil Liberties Union now says it’s among those who have “serious concerns” about the bill.

Those concerns have the capacity to prove a major setback to Sen. Harry Reid’s current gun bill, which includes language from earlier bills introduced by Sens. Chuck Schumer and Barbara Boxer.

In an exclusive interview with The Daily Caller, a top lobbyist for the ACLU announced that the group thinks Reid’s current gun bill could threaten both privacy rights and civil liberties.
http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/04/exclusive-aclu-says-reids-gun-legislation-could-threaten-privacy-rights-civil-liberties/

Or how about this:


In a report issued in February, the Texas affiliate of the National Rifle Association joined the American Civil Liberties Union of Texas and the Texas Criminal Justice Coalition “to spotlight unlawful, unnecessary governmental encroachment on average law-abiding citizens.”

The report, “Above the Law: How Texas prosecutors are placing their own judgment over that of the Legislature and the law of the land,” found that district and county attorneys had instructed police officers to “unnecessarily” interrogate drivers and arrest them or take their weapons, “even if they are legally carrying the gun.”

“It’s all the self-interest of the job,” said Scott Henson, a civil liberties advocate and blogger who wrote the report. Mr. Henson contends that police officers are opposed to citizens’ carrying guns and that prosecutors depend on gun charges to strengthen weak cases and prompt plea bargains.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/05/us/05guns.html?_r=0

So the ACLU does indeed defend the 2nd Amendment when it is infringed - but of course no right wing news outlet will ever give them credit for it!



I’ll let you slide on the ACLU championing Christianity because they have probably supported some group like Westboro Baptist Church on first amendment rights.

There have been numerous occasions when the ACLU has defended Christians' first amendment rights. Here's a list of some of them.
http://www.aclufightsforchristians.com/

Interesting, isn't it? I bet Fox News never reported any of this. The Religious Right wants us to think the ACLU is a villainous atheist liberal conspiracy that only defends racial minorities and commies. When in reality, they will defend anybody who has a legitimate grievance.

technomage1
05-02-2013, 04:42 PM
Interesting, isn't it? I bet Fox News never reported any of this. The Religious Right wants us to think the ACLU is a villainous atheist liberal conspiracy that only defends racial minorities and commies. When in reality, they will defend anybody who has a legitimate grievance.

+1 "Fair and Balanced" my Aunt Petunia....

Banned
05-02-2013, 05:02 PM
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/310031_614887621872816_2020627867_n.jpg

drc100882
05-02-2013, 05:14 PM
Interesting, isn't it? I bet Fox News never reported any of this. The Religious Right wants us to think the ACLU is a villainous atheist liberal conspiracy that only defends racial minorities and commies. When in reality, they will defend anybody who has a legitimate grievance.

I really think you'd be surprised at the amount of conservatives that don't get their news ONLY from Fox. I literally have 11 different news sites saved to my favorites on my home laptop, and yes, that includes HuffPo, Politico, Mother Jones and Think Progress...Those that choose to be uninformed will be uninformed. I choose not to be uninformed.
The only show on Fox I watch daily is The Five, and ONLY because Bob Beckel cracks me up. The only show I watch on CNN is Piers Morgan because... lets face it - he's good for a laugh.
Fox has the highest rated OPINION shows, like O'Reilly and somehow Hannity, but for news news.... I avoid all major networks because they all suck.

Measure Man
05-02-2013, 05:16 PM
I really think you'd be surprised at the amount of conservatives that don't get their news ONLY from Fox. I literally have 11 different news sites saved to my favorites on my home laptop, and yes, that includes HuffPo, Politico, Mother Jones and Think Progress...Those that choose to be uninformed will be uninformed. I choose not to be uninformed.
The only show on Fox I watch daily is The Five, and ONLY because Bob Beckel cracks me up. The only show I watch on CNN is Piers Morgan because... lets face it - he's good for a laugh.
Fox has the highest rated OPINION shows, like O'Reilly and somehow Hannity, but for news news.... I avoid all major networks because they all suck.

I like Shepherd Smith...he's a hoot.

Banned
05-02-2013, 05:42 PM
I really think you'd be surprised at the amount of conservatives that don't get their news ONLY from Fox. I literally have 11 different news sites saved to my favorites on my home laptop, and yes, that includes HuffPo, Politico, Mother Jones and Think Progress...Those that choose to be uninformed will be uninformed. I choose not to be uninformed.
The only show on Fox I watch daily is The Five, and ONLY because Bob Beckel cracks me up. The only show I watch on CNN is Piers Morgan because... lets face it - he's good for a laugh.
Fox has the highest rated OPINION shows, like O'Reilly and somehow Hannity, but for news news.... I avoid all major networks because they all suck.

Good for you... then I'm sure you already knew everything I just said about the ACLU. :)

drc100882
05-02-2013, 07:32 PM
Good for you... then I'm sure you already knew everything I just said about the ACLU. :)

I actually didn't know the one about Harry Reid's bill... all that was going on while I was finishing up treatments so I was out of tune for a little while but that's interesting... seems like that bill would have been a big slap on the back for Reid but I think even he knew better.

Banned
05-02-2013, 08:16 PM
I actually didn't know the one about Harry Reid's bill... all that was going on while I was finishing up treatments so I was out of tune for a little while but that's interesting... seems like that bill would have been a big slap on the back for Reid but I think even he knew better.

I'm actually a bit surprised the ACLU made that statement - for the most part they're generally believers in the "well regulated militia" - it seems perhaps their biggest objection here was a potential invasion of privacy.

sandsjames
05-02-2013, 08:17 PM
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/310031_614887621872816_2020627867_n.jpg



Now change the word "republican" to "democrat" and "ruining" to "running".

Banned
05-02-2013, 08:34 PM
I vote Democrat to keep foreigners... etc from running my life.

What?

And how does the rich Wall Street guy play into it? They vote almost invariably for Republicans - no matter how hard Obama tries to suck up to them.

You tried to make a funny... and it failed apparently.

grimreaper
05-03-2013, 05:35 AM
I vote Democrat to keep foreigners... etc from running my life.

What?

And how does the rich Wall Street guy play into it? They vote almost invariably for Republicans - no matter how hard Obama tries to suck up to them.

You tried to make a funny... and it failed apparently.

in·var·i·a·bly
/inˈve(ə)rēəblē/
Adverb
In every case or on every occasion; always.

So 57%(D)-43%(R) in 2008 and 60%(R)-40%(D) in 2012 is your definition of "almost invariably"?


The biggest difference between this election and the race in 2008 is that Wall Street is now betting bigger on Republicans. During the last cycle, 57% of individuals from Wall Street gave to Democrats and President Obama. But this year, 60% of Wall Street's contributions went to Republicans.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/09/05/investing/wall-street-elections/index.html

You tried to state your misguided opinion as fact... and failed apparently. Love ya Joe.

TJMAC77SP
05-03-2013, 06:44 PM
[QUOTE]

You seem to have this Fascism thing refined to an art form.



Nope... because Buddism is a philosophy, not a religion.



Look around you. YOU'RE the one making a huge whiny deal out of this. Those of us in favor of erasing the serial numbers are simply motivated by common sense. You're the one turning this into ideology.

You're so desperate to be ANTI-politically correct, you'll throw all reason and judgement under the bus.

"Fascism thing"...channelling PYB again? Come on Joe, engage some brain cells. I pointed out that scopes aren't weapons, they are used with weapons. Period....a small clarifying and irrelevant point. Don't get wrapped around the axle, just pay attention to details.

So, you will dismiss my comparison to Buddhism because you don't think it's a religion? Well, aside from the fact that you are wrong......"Buddhism is a religion to about 300 million people around the world. (http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/5minbud.htm)"........I think you are again getting desperate.

The only whining going on around here is your incessant war on Christianity. It is as always very obvious. While I don't share the beliefs of the owners of Trijicon, I defend their right to state their beliefs in any way that doesn't infringe on the rights of others to practice their religion. An innocuous, mostly hidden (unless of course some news outlet tells you about it) is certainly not doing that. The only harm done to US troops was caused by those who made this into a story and by those who perpetuate it.

Banned
05-03-2013, 07:42 PM
[QUOTE=Joe Bonham;621399]

"Fascism thing"...channelling PYB again? Come on Joe, engage some brain cells. I pointed out that scopes aren't weapons, they are used with weapons. Period....a small clarifying and irrelevant point. Don't get wrapped around the axle, just pay attention to details.

Fair enough.


So, you will dismiss my comparison to Buddhism because you don't think it's a religion? Well, aside from the fact that you are wrong......"Buddhism is a religion to about 300 million people around the world. (http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/5minbud.htm)"........I think you are again getting desperate.

It depends how you define "religion" - I concede your definition is equally valid as well -


In my experience, people who say Buddhism is a philosophy and not a religion usually mean it as a compliment. They are trying to say, I think, that Buddhism is something other than the superstitious rubbish they believe religion to be.

In this view, religion is a jumble of primitive folklore that humankind drags through the ages like a cosmic security blanket. Religion is passionate and irrational and messy. But philosophy is the flower of human intellect. It is reasonable and civilized. Religion inspires war and atrocity; at worst, philosophy incites mild arguments over coffee and dessert.

Buddhism -- some Buddhism, anyway -- is a practice of contemplation and inquiry that doesn't depend on belief in God or a soul or anything supernatural. Therefore, the theory goes, it can't be a religion.
http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/a/philosophy.htm


The only whining going on around here is your incessant war on Christianity. It is as always very obvious. While I don't share the beliefs of the owners of Trijicon, I defend their right to state their beliefs in any way that doesn't infringe on the rights of others to practice their religion. An innocuous, mostly hidden (unless of course some news outlet tells you about it) is certainly not doing that. The only harm done to US troops was caused by those who made this into a story and by those who perpetuate it.

Again, you perpetuate this disturbing viewpoint that we need to conceal the truth. Here's an idea - if Trijicon didn't do this nonsense to begin with, it never would have been a story.

Banned
05-03-2013, 08:19 PM
Joe knows...

Your mom knows...

Banned
05-03-2013, 08:24 PM
Joe knows...

Your mom knows...

TJMAC77SP
05-06-2013, 12:28 PM
[QUOTE=TJMAC77SP;621985] Again, you perpetuate this disturbing viewpoint that we need to conceal the truth. Here's an idea - if Trijicon didn't do this nonsense to begin with, it never would have been a story.

It isn't about 'concealing' anything. It is about what stories are really news and why some stories are reported. You think it is important I imagine because you have an obvious issue with anything that even smells of Christianity. I have a problem with reporting news solely based on sensationalism.

Your argument about Trijicon is interesting. See if you remember this................

"If the kid had just shown his driver's license to the cop there would have never been a video to watch"

TJMAC77SP
05-06-2013, 02:27 PM
So you have a problem with it. Nobody gives a shit if you have a problem with it or not. We have this thing called a free press. Perhaps you've heard of it. This is the truth. The truth needs to be reported. Let the public be the judges of whether or not it is "newsworthy".

I'll bet the people of the Middle East found it interesting that a supposedly secular nation is sending its Soldiers into battle against Muslims with Christian references imprinted on their weapon systems.



I do remember that in fact. I'm not sure how you managed to twist my argument that a cop shouldn't have lost his bearing into showing that I somehow argued against corporate accountability and a free press.

I also find it interesting that you seem to think we have to be always forthcoming with information for the government... but the government does not need to be forthcoming about information to us.


More butt hurt Joe?

It was clearly stated as my opinion and you have another opinion. Isn't that something huh?

Speaking of twisting...........how is the US government and information release related to this story at all?

Banned
05-06-2013, 02:27 PM
It isn't about 'concealing' anything. It is about what stories are really news and why some stories are reported. You think it is important I imagine because you have an obvious issue with anything that even smells of Christianity. I have a problem with reporting news solely based on sensationalism.

So you have a problem with it. Nobody gives a shit if you have a problem with it or not. We have this thing called a free press. Perhaps you've heard of it. This is the truth. The truth needs to be reported. Let the public be the judges of whether or not it is "newsworthy".

I'll bet the people of the Middle East found it interesting that a supposedly secular nation is sending its Soldiers into battle against Muslims with Christian references imprinted on their weapon systems.


Your argument about Trijicon is interesting. See if you remember this................

"If the kid had just shown his driver's license to the cop there would have never been a video to watch"

I do remember that in fact. I'm not sure how you managed to twist my argument that a cop shouldn't have lost his bearing into showing that I somehow argued against corporate accountability and a free press.

I also find it interesting that you seem to think we have to be always forthcoming with information for the government... but the government does not need to be forthcoming about information to us.

Tak
05-06-2013, 09:15 PM
Medias so f@cking bad these days, trying to create stories.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/official--celebration--not-act-of-faith--got-high-schooler-disqualified-170034775.html

Banned
05-06-2013, 10:30 PM
Its a lose-lose situation with this crowd. If the media doesn't report a story, its a "liberal conspiracy". If they do report the story, its "sensationalism".

Think about it - if the Army just responded to individual complaints and quietly scratched out the serial numbers without any media coverage - many of the same people here on this thread would be complaining about the "media blackout" on the oppression of Christians.

TJMAC77SP
05-07-2013, 11:48 AM
Its a lose-lose situation with this crowd. If the media doesn't report a story, its a "liberal conspiracy". If they do report the story, its "sensationalism".

Think about it - if the Army just responded to individual complaints and quietly scratched out the serial numbers without any media coverage - many of the same people here on this thread would be complaining about the "media blackout" on the oppression of Christians.

And if Hitler hadn't stopped at the English Channel the Brits favorite dinner would be Schnitzel mit Bier.

Banned
05-07-2013, 04:51 PM
And if Hitler hadn't stopped at the English Channel the Brits favorite dinner would be Schnitzel mit Bier.

Hey don't talk bad about him. He was a good guy - he just believed in a strong security posture, and quickly and decisively responding to "threats" around the world.