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VFFTSGT
04-15-2013, 01:42 AM
Are you really selling this propaganda considering how irresponsible the government is with its resources?

The US sends troops to a war that has nothing to with the US and then wants to take a benefit promised to them?

When we could cut many other things like foreign aid, gun running operations, politician world tours, etc.

Or things such as hiring people to take out trash and clean toilets when Airmen on facebook could have done it for cheaper?

What about stimulus funds used to replace barriers at gates just cause versus a real need?

Or units who are denying people personal protective equipment because there is no money but spending $1,000 on award plaques.

What about cutting off the cable and selling all the flatscreen TV's that were FWA in the first place?

Are you kidding me with the nonsense that TA was the right cut and could have kept 2 squadrons flying?

Read about Chief Cody's propaganda message, page 13 this week.

efmbman
04-15-2013, 02:05 AM
I don't necessarily agree that TA was "promised", but I agree with everything else you posted. As far as being proper stewards of taxpayer money, DoD has to be the worst. I always thought that the senior enlisted adviser in any of the services should be an advocate for the troops. After reviewing many of Cody's remarks over the last few months, he is far from it.

Vrake
04-15-2013, 03:11 AM
Money is flowing faster for us of late since we are month to month, it is a race to spend it. I now have a second set of brand new boots just cause. And new Oakley "safety glasses" were just issued.

I still wish for a world where the money you save is more important the keeping some whimsical budget intact. Give everyone the same year to year but give awards on how much saved not how close to spending it all.

Vrake
04-15-2013, 03:11 AM
Money is flowing faster for us of late since we are month to month, it is a race to spend it. I now have a second set of brand new boots just cause. And new Oakley "safety glasses" were just issued.

I still wish for a world where the money you save is more important the keeping some whimsical budget intact. Give everyone the same year to year but give awards on how much saved not how close to spending it all.

mfjdspence
04-15-2013, 04:32 AM
You know, the only thing that really galls me about the whole TA thing is that we, the enlisted force, use it as a discriminator for promotions. Promotions should be focused solely on how the person does at work and not what they are doing on their off duty time. In the real world, promotions are based more upon merit and the skill of the individual and nothing about their volunteer of the year awards and even less on education, though it does play a small factor, smaller than the emphasis we place on it.

Education is key to everything we do, but what are we really promoting here by having SSgt's, TSgt's, MSgt's, SMSgt's and Chief's who have more education than the leadership above them? Sure, at present the Air Force is paying for this, but when the system goes back to a partially funded % by the Air Force, are these mandated line items such as CCAF really something we should be making folks tow the line for? Can we honestly tell them that in order for them to get promoted they need to shell money out of their own pocket? I heard the snicker there and the word CLEP mentioned under someone's breath...but that isn't for everyone.

We, the enlisted force, broke our promotion system, the performance report system and our PT program. We need to get a hold of things, come back down to breathe some of the real air here on the ground and fix the problems we have. Using the phrase "Total Person Concept" is an injustice to each and every one of us who signed on the dotted line to give our lives to our country if called upon to do so. How can we honestly look ourselves in the mirror each morning and say that you are not a total person when to make that next stripe you are sacrificing more and more of your time with your family, pay more and more out of your own pocket, to ask our Airmen to get Pell Grants and use their GI Bill while TA is taking a back seat. The Air Force bought us as total people, and they valued our ability to have fresh ideas because of our broad exposure. The more we force mostly Air Force life mentality where family, self, and everything else takes a back seat we are going to continue to have problems with being able to see the true horizon.

Bring back the sanity.

JD2780
04-15-2013, 01:42 PM
Oh wow, like we give two shits about keeping to squadrons flying. I for one, dont care. You know what would've kept two squadrons flying? Not being irresponsible with funds to begin with. Not developing a culture where, you need to speen all your money so you can ask for me later. I wish I could run my personal finances like that.

I hope the good Chief, stops being a punk, although I'm out and using my GI Bill.

JD2780
04-15-2013, 01:43 PM
Oh wow, like we give two shits about keeping to squadrons flying. I for one, dont care. You know what would've kept two squadrons flying? Not being irresponsible with funds to begin with. Not developing a culture where, you need to speen all your money so you can ask for me later. I wish I could run my personal finances like that.

I hope the good Chief, stops being a punk, although

Bumble78
04-15-2013, 03:16 PM
I bet the money we are spending on TA could have kept Tops In Blue going. It is so sad that those poor Airmen and Airwomen have to take time away from there career fields to sit around and do nothing.

JD2780
04-15-2013, 03:48 PM
Bumble that is one hell of spoon you're stirring with there. Well done.

SomeRandomGuy
04-15-2013, 03:50 PM
The most important question here is whether we can still call them "flying" squadrons. I am thinking since they are grounded we should maybe call them grounded squadrons. Also since they will not be flying the uniform of the day should be blues to make up for all of the blues mondays they missed out on while they were busy flying.

JD2780
04-15-2013, 04:09 PM
Yes grounded squadrons. I like it.

Tak
04-15-2013, 07:38 PM
Hope he's busy with top secret 6 month EPR and AC review.

ConfusedAirman
04-15-2013, 07:44 PM
I don't necessarily agree that TA was "promised", but I agree with everything else you posted. As far as being proper stewards of taxpayer money, DoD has to be the worst. I always thought that the senior enlisted adviser in any of the services should be an advocate for the troops. After reviewing many of Cody's remarks over the last few months, he is far from it.

The CMSAF (and probably most CCMs) stopped being advocates for the troops years ago to become advocates for their bosses. This has always been a fine line but it seems they gave up all hope of straddling it. Cody seems willing to trade off a few months of allowing TWO squadrons to continue to fly for years of discontent within the enlisted ranks. I really thought that at his level he would be thinking long-term strategic goals aimed at maintaining/improving the health of the Air Force. Apparently not.

SomeRandomGuy
04-15-2013, 07:54 PM
Are you really selling this propaganda considering how irresponsible the government is with its resources?

The US sends troops to a war that has nothing to with the US and then wants to take a benefit promised to them?

When we could cut many other things like foreign aid, gun running operations, politician world tours, etc.

Or things such as hiring people to take out trash and clean toilets when Airmen on facebook could have done it for cheaper?

What about stimulus funds used to replace barriers at gates just cause versus a real need?

Or units who are denying people personal protective equipment because there is no money but spending $1,000 on award plaques.

What about cutting off the cable and selling all the flatscreen TV's that were FWA in the first place?

Are you kidding me with the nonsense that TA was the right cut and could have kept 2 squadrons flying?

Read about Chief Cody's propaganda message, page 13 this week.


Another cutback that could easily be done with no effect on the mission is the cost of civilian appraisals. I have a friend who told me the exact cost of civilian appraisals AF wide but I forget the number. I want to say it was somewhere in the $1-2million range. Last year the DoD spent $3million on TA. So if Cody wants to complain about something why doesn't he say that if civilian appraisals were cut we could keep 2 squadrons flying? Civilian appraisals do not really add any value. From what I understand (admittedly not much) the appraisals are similar to enlisted EPRs. Most bullets are copy paste and you only need a favorable rating to get any step increase. It would make a lot more sense to simply create a from that blocks the increase and only use it when necessary.

Tak
04-15-2013, 08:33 PM
Imagine if CCMs worked for cmsaf and not bases.

Quixotic
04-15-2013, 08:50 PM
So the Chief says we could have kept two squadrons flying by cutting TA.Flying for how long exactly...?

sandsjames
04-15-2013, 08:51 PM
Who cares. TA should go away. We have the GI Bill. If cutting TA helps keep ONE single mission related item going then it's worth it.

JD2780
04-15-2013, 09:03 PM
Who cares. TA should go away. We have the GI Bill. If cutting TA helps keep ONE single mission related item going then it's worth it.

By mission do you mean those multiple generals flying when they have no business up in an aircraft anymore?

Tak
04-15-2013, 09:03 PM
All af missions are secondary.

sandsjames
04-15-2013, 09:25 PM
By mission do you mean those multiple generals flying when they have no business up in an aircraft anymore?

No, I mean being able to buy a filter for my generator. If it isn't mission critical, cut it. Everything.

Quixotic
04-15-2013, 09:37 PM
Who cares. TA should go away. We have the GI Bill. If cutting TA helps keep ONE single mission related item going then it's worth it.

So, having an enlisted force comprised of higher educated people isn't mission related...?

sandsjames
04-15-2013, 09:48 PM
So, having an enlisted force comprised of higher educated people isn't mission related...?

Sure it is, but we HAVE the GI Bill! So it's no longer about educating military members. It's all about saving that money to pass on to family members. It's more greed that's put our country into the debt we are in.

tiredretiredE7
04-15-2013, 10:07 PM
Are you really selling this propaganda considering how irresponsible the government is with its resources?

The US sends troops to a war that has nothing to with the US and then wants to take a benefit promised to them?

When we could cut many other things like foreign aid, gun running operations, politician world tours, etc.

Or things such as hiring people to take out trash and clean toilets when Airmen on facebook could have done it for cheaper?

What about stimulus funds used to replace barriers at gates just cause versus a real need?

Or units who are denying people personal protective equipment because there is no money but spending $1,000 on award plaques.

What about cutting off the cable and selling all the flatscreen TV's that were FWA in the first place?

Are you kidding me with the nonsense that TA was the right cut and could have kept 2 squadrons flying?

Read about Chief Cody's propaganda message, page 13 this week.

It is amazing how the Chief Cody groupies (Crusty) have nothing to say about this ignorant comment by Chief Cody. I have been bashing Chief Cody for a couple of weeks and this is more evidence that Chief Cody is just another E-9 clown dancing for the man. Why did any of you expect anything else from E-9 Cody?

Quixotic
04-15-2013, 10:19 PM
Sure it is, but we HAVE the GI Bill! So it's no longer about educating military members. It's all about saving that money to pass on to family members. It's more greed that's put our country into the debt we are in.

How exactly is TA "not about educating military members?" Even with the GI Bill? Which not everybody will be passing on to other family members by the way.

If you want to argue against greed, there's much bigger fish to fry than TA, like your free health care for instance, let's get rid of that too, so you can buy another generator filter.

Tak
04-15-2013, 10:30 PM
A highly enlisted force improves body counts.

imported_Shove_your_stupid_meeting
04-16-2013, 02:07 AM
Money is flowing faster for us of late since we are month to month, it is a race to spend it. I now have a second set of brand new boots just cause. And new Oakley "safety glasses" were just issued.

I still wish for a world where the money you save is more important the keeping some whimsical budget intact. Give everyone the same year to year but give awards on how much saved not how close to spending it all.


Eh, elsewhere it isn't flowing like that. OMB is sitting on some money (unless they pushed it after 1600 EST or so) that OSD desperately needs to push out. Some of us are broke, at least from a big picture perspective. I'm sure we have GPC cards with enough on them to buy some boots, but that's hardly breaking the bank.

Chief_KO
04-16-2013, 02:45 AM
Probably a correct fiscal statement that the TA$ could have kept 2 squadrons flying, but that is only 2 of the 17 that have been grounded. Grounding only refers to training sorties as I understand it, so the impact to defense is subject to debate. We've been there before (about 20 years ago) and will be there again.
Regarding those in (and out of) uniform who advocate using GI Bill, Financial Aid, or personal funds for education, that is a valid point. BUT, the point is cutting our benefits. If TA is a successful cut, why not cut BAS when deployed (like it used to be), add active duty co-pays to TRICARE, make clothing allowance a credit account at clothing sales (it has been tried in the past), along with a few other "bean counter" ideas.
If one chooses not to use TA, no problem...their loss. But we cannot stand by and let our benefit package erode, for the next cut might be the one you like to use.

sandsjames
04-16-2013, 03:31 PM
How exactly is TA "not about educating military members?" Even with the GI Bill? Which not everybody will be passing on to other family members by the way.

If you want to argue against greed, there's much bigger fish to fry than TA, like your free health care for instance, let's get rid of that too, so you can buy another generator filter.There's a difference with health care. There are no other options that make my healthcare free. There is no redundant system. TA is redundant to the GI Bill. I realize that everyone wants the economy to get fixed but nobody wants to make a sacrifice so it doesn't bother me too much. Americans, especially military members, have become a joke. It's no longer "Ask not what your country can do for you..", it's now "What else can my country do for me, fuck everyone else."

CrustySMSgt
04-16-2013, 03:47 PM
The CMSAF (and probably most CCMs) stopped being advocates for the troops years ago to become advocates for their bosses. This has always been a fine line but it seems they gave up all hope of straddling it. Cody seems willing to trade off a few months of allowing TWO squadrons to continue to fly for years of discontent within the enlisted ranks. I really thought that at his level he would be thinking long-term strategic goals aimed at maintaining/improving the health of the Air Force. Apparently not.

3 of the 4 services cut TA. Are you saying all 3 senior enlisted are sell-outs?

Easy to play arm chair CMSAF and say what you would do if you were in the position not knowing the facts...

CrustySMSgt
04-16-2013, 03:50 PM
^^^^^^^^^^


It is amazing how the Chief Cody groupies (Crusty) have nothing to say about this ignorant comment by Chief Cody. I have been bashing Chief Cody for a couple of weeks and this is more evidence that Chief Cody is just another E-9 clown dancing for the man. Why did any of you expect anything else from E-9 Cody?

BRUWIN
04-16-2013, 04:36 PM
I feel safe knowing the majority of Airmen in this forum are more committed to going to college than flying airplanes...which by the way...was at one time our sole mission.

Quixotic
04-16-2013, 04:39 PM
I feel safe knowing the majority of Airmen in this forum are more committed to going to college than flying airplanes...which by the way...was at one time our sole mission.

I guess the idea that maybe we're committed to both is too far fetched to be believable?

Quixotic
04-16-2013, 04:43 PM
There's a difference with health care. There are no other options that make my healthcare free. There is no redundant system. TA is redundant to the GI Bill. I realize that everyone wants the economy to get fixed but nobody wants to make a sacrifice so it doesn't bother me too much. Americans, especially military members, have become a joke. It's no longer "Ask not what your country can do for you..", it's now "What else can my country do for me, fuck everyone else."

TA is not a redundancy of the GI Bill, far from it. Furthermore, the money is out there, why should we be singled out as the ones who should roll over and take it in the @ss while the rest of America goes on a shopping spree.

Tell me, which benefit are you willing to give up for your country...?

Tak
04-16-2013, 05:53 PM
I feel safe knowing the majority of Airmen in this forum are more committed to going to college than flying airplanes...which by the way...was at one time our sole mission.

Wrong, #1 mission has always been nuclear detterance via missiles.

Pullinteeth
04-16-2013, 06:19 PM
I feel safe knowing the majority of Airmen in this forum are more committed to going to college than flying airplanes...which by the way...was at one time our sole mission.

College was once our sole mission? Maybe if you were at the Academy, ROTC, Air War College, Air Command and Staff college, AF Chap Corps College, or one of those fancy schools...

VFFTSGT
04-16-2013, 06:24 PM
I feel safe knowing the majority of Airmen in this forum are more committed to going to college than flying airplanes...which by the way...was at one time our sole mission.

I support the cutting of TA...after several other things have been cut first.

However, with the irresponsibility of the government, DOD, and Air Force when it comes to spending...I did not support this cut in TA. Lets start with cutting the cable off and stop buying award plaques first.

People could use the GI Bill in lieu of, but that is a lot of lost benefit to use the GI Bill while in the service since you don't get the housing or book stipends and you cannot go to school full time so you are losing GI Bill months over taking a couple classes at a time. It's a loss of thousands upon thousands of dollars to the service member.

With the tanker contract controversy and two modern fighters that are nothing but paperweights to date...why do we need to be flying in first place?

Jamethon
04-16-2013, 06:36 PM
Sure it is, but we HAVE the GI Bill! So it's no longer about educating military members. It's all about saving that money to pass on to family members. It's more greed that's put our country into the debt we are in.

Well that isn't our fault. We have a government entity who decided and encouraged us to pass it along to family members. All the while, because TA was 100% so your spouse could go to school for free and you could too. Don't keep saying "WE HAVE THE GI BILL!" Because we all don't. The government screwed up by telling us that we had all the benefits and then turning around taking them away, leaving most people stranded.

Also, what do you say for the kid who enlisted 2 years ago and doesn't get 100% coverage from the GI Bill? "Sorry son, you're SOL."

This whole thing is is an understandable and legitimate concern among our troops. For our CMSAF to come out and say something as mundane as this? Horrible. It is funny how I have always been told how some money is not other money and how they can't be used for one another.. but now they can.

Also, with a budget of 3 million dollars for TA? How can that realistically keep two flying squadrons active? That seems like a ploy from the top.

sandsjames
04-16-2013, 06:56 PM
Tell me, which benefit are you willing to give up for your country...?

TA, BX, Commissary,dependent BAH, dependent medical care, dependent tax breaks, shall I go on?

Sergeant eNYgma
04-16-2013, 07:16 PM
Are you really selling this propaganda considering how irresponsible the government is with its resources?

The US sends troops to a war that has nothing to with the US and then wants to take a benefit promised to them?

When we could cut many other things like foreign aid, gun running operations, politician world tours, etc.

Or things such as hiring people to take out trash and clean toilets when Airmen on facebook could have done it for cheaper?

What about stimulus funds used to replace barriers at gates just cause versus a real need?

Or units who are denying people personal protective equipment because there is no money but spending $1,000 on award plaques.

What about cutting off the cable and selling all the flatscreen TV's that were FWA in the first place?

Are you kidding me with the nonsense that TA was the right cut and could have kept 2 squadrons flying?

Read about Chief Cody's propaganda message, page 13 this week.

So basically I should give up hoping for a better replacement for Roy? How long are these tours? 4 years? Hope the NEXT guy is better...

Quixotic
04-16-2013, 07:46 PM
TA, BX, Commissary,dependent BAH, dependent medical care, dependent tax breaks, shall I go on?

So do you actually have dependents? Or are you still just campaigning against benefits that you personally don't have value in?

How about your retirement, let's give that up for the sake of Country, how about that?

tiredretiredE7
04-17-2013, 12:02 AM
So basically I should give up hoping for a better replacement for Roy? How long are these tours? 4 years? Hope the NEXT guy is better...

I wouldn't hold my breath concerning any worthy Chief being selected for CMSAF. The CMSAF will always be selected on how well they can dance for the man versus tell the man what needs to be done to support enlisted.

tiredretiredE7
04-17-2013, 12:13 AM
3 of the 4 services cut TA. Are you saying all 3 senior enlisted are sell-outs?

Easy to play arm chair CMSAF and say what you would do if you were in the position not knowing the facts...

It is not about what happened, it’s about what E9 Cody said. E9 Cody could have simply said "It is a great day for the enlisted Airman" or "The Air Force has reinforced the focus on the importance of education for the enlisted Airman". To say how the reinstatement of a benefit damages the AF mission shows E9 Cody is all about dancing for the man and is NOT focused on supporting the enlisted Airman. There is still tons of fat to cut (Community College of the Air Force is my number #1, conversion from civilian back to AD is my #2) so the planes can continue to fly and the Airman will have TA. The failure of senior AF leadership to realize these savings, indicates we still have incompetent senior AF leadership and ofcourse E9 Cody could have made these recommendations.

Tak
04-17-2013, 12:42 AM
Everyone in service dances for the man at some point,
Some the jig, some a waltz, some tango, some two step,
Question is, what kind of dance will yours be?

tiredretiredE7
04-17-2013, 02:32 AM
Everyone in service dances for the man at some point,
Some the jig, some a waltz, some tango, some two step,
Question is, what kind of dance will yours be?

I never danced for the man and that is why I happily retired as an MSgt. I did make sure my troops were prepared for future promotions ie CCAF so that could be considered dancing for the man; but I would call it leadership.

Steve-OK
04-17-2013, 02:35 AM
Flying won't get you SRE

Tak
04-17-2013, 02:44 AM
I never danced for the man and that is why I happily retired as an MSgt. I did make sure my troops were prepared for future promotions ie CCAF so that could be considered dancing for the man; but I would call it leadership.

Yep, ya danced bro...no biggie...impossible once music plays

Quixotic
04-17-2013, 03:02 AM
From the TA article in MT:


"Please let's be clear that we are here to serve, not be served. If you're not right with that in your head, then you need to be thinking about what's next for you after this enlistment."

I can't help but wonder how many TA dollars were "served" up, if any, to pay for his CCAF, or his bachelors from Trident.

Our current budgetary woes came from Capital Hill in the form of sequestration, aka, the unjust and exclusive burdening of the military with the nation's fiscal irresponsibility while the rest of the federal government goes on with budgetary business as usual.

The solution to grounded squadrons is to be found exclusively on Capital Hill, not the base education office.

tiredretiredE7
04-17-2013, 03:29 AM
From the TA article in MT:



I can't help but wonder how many TA dollars were "served" up, if any, to pay for his CCAF, or his bachelors from Trident.

Our current budgetary woes came from Capital Hill in the form of sequestration, aka, the unjust and exclusive burdening of the military with the nation's fiscal irresponsibility while the rest of the federal government goes on with budgetary business as usual.

The solution to grounded squadrons is to be found exclusively on Capital Hill, not the base education office.

We finally agree on something and thank you for these accurate comments.

Tak
04-17-2013, 03:58 AM
When cmsaf said no TA and in.same email that they were keeping ccaf req for smsgt,
He showed true colors. And those colors run.

PortDawg2T2
04-17-2013, 04:02 AM
I can't help but wonder how many TA dollars were "served" up, if any, to pay for his CCAF, or his bachelors from Trident.



For the Bachelors, $15K. Trident will transfer 60 CCAF credits and their classes are $1K each (4 sem hrs @ $250 ea).

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain" What was good for him is not good for you!

VFFTSGT
04-17-2013, 04:34 AM
You know, they should have reverted TA back to 75% rather than cut it all together.

People would have been pissed, but I don't think the uproar would have happened like it did with cutting it completely.

75% in of it self would have saved money and then some people would not take classes (saving even more money) because they would rather have the latest iPhone or Call of Duty than pay a dime towards education.

But again, cuts should have happened in other places first.

CrustySMSgt
04-17-2013, 08:03 AM
I support the cutting of TA...after several other things have been cut first.

However, with the irresponsibility of the government, DOD, and Air Force when it comes to spending...I did not support this cut in TA. Lets start with cutting the cable off and stop buying award plaques first.

People could use the GI Bill in lieu of, but that is a lot of lost benefit to use the GI Bill while in the service since you don't get the housing or book stipends and you cannot go to school full time so you are losing GI Bill months over taking a couple classes at a time. It's a loss of thousands upon thousands of dollars to the service member.

With the tanker contract controversy and two modern fighters that are nothing but paperweights to date...why do we need to be flying in first place?

Saw something on the "AF Memes" FB page this morning, a letter to residents of Wright Patt lodging saying they were cutting cable, so someone is finally listening to you! Not sure if it is AF-wide or just at WP.


It is not about what happened, it’s about what E9 Cody said. E9 Cody could have simply said "It is a great day for the enlisted Airman" or "The Air Force has reinforced the focus on the importance of education for the enlisted Airman". To say how the reinstatement of a benefit damages the AF mission shows E9 Cody is all about dancing for the man and is NOT focused on supporting the enlisted Airman. There is still tons of fat to cut (Community College of the Air Force is my number #1, conversion from civilian back to AD is my #2) so the planes can continue to fly and the Airman will have TA. The failure of senior AF leadership to realize these savings, indicates we still have incompetent senior AF leadership and ofcourse E9 Cody could have made these recommendations.

What a shame for the Air Force that your vast knowledge of operating a multi-trillion dollar operation that employs 700,000-ish people spread around the world is going to waste because of the arbitrary constraints that kept you from rising to the top. I blame NorK; they rejoice at your subjigation, because if you had been utilized to your full potential, all enemies of the state would lay in bed at night wondering when the powers at the command of alertactivedutyO11 would kick in their door and bring them to justice. What a sad world we live in...


When cmsaf said no TA and in.same email that they were keeping ccaf req for smsgt,
He showed true colors. And those colors run.

For the record, a CCAF is not required for promotion to SMSgt! :nerd


You know, they should have reverted TA back to 75% rather than cut it all together.

People would have been pissed, but I don't think the uproar would have happened like it did with cutting it completely.

75% in of it self would have saved money and then some people would not take classes (saving even more money) because they would rather have the latest iPhone or Call of Duty than pay a dime towards education.

But again, cuts should have happened in other places first.

I tried to find the exact verbiage of congress' mandate to restore TA. Only thing I've seen is they said to restore the program as budgeted for FY13... I agree that making people come out of pocket definitely thins the herd and will weed out those doing it just to do it. Just not sure that was an option for the remainder of FY13. I'd expect to see something change for FY14.

SomeRandomGuy
04-17-2013, 01:19 PM
Saw something on the "AF Memes" FB page this morning, a letter to residents of Wright Patt lodging saying they were cutting cable, so someone is finally listening to you! Not sure if it is AF-wide or just at WP.

They are planning on cutting off the cable at Wright-Patt but only in billeting. They also said they plan to reduce the number of rooms avalaiable to save on costs. What I am trying to figure out is how that saves money. I always thought lodging was self supporting or close to it. How does reducing the number of rooms (their only revenue) help save money?

The one interesting thing they are doing here is shutting off the lights in the parkking lots for buildings that do not have a 24 hour mission. When I read that I was thinking why in the world did we ever have them on in the first place? For several years now we have repeatedly been told to shut our computer monitors off at the end of the day and turn off lights. Kind of ironic that the people telling us that were leaving the lights they control turned on all night.

tiredretiredE7
04-17-2013, 01:26 PM
What a shame for the Air Force that your vast knowledge of operating a multi-trillion dollar operation that employs 700,000-ish people spread around the world is going to waste because of the arbitrary constraints that kept you from rising to the top. I blame NorK; they rejoice at your subjigation, because if you had been utilized to your full potential, all enemies of the state would lay in bed at night wondering when the powers at the command of alertactivedutyO11 would kick in their door and bring them to justice. What a sad world we live in...

Do I detect some anger since you fully endorsed E9 Cody and he turns out to be worse than E9 Roy? I am sure it makes perfect sense to you to have a GS10 civilian (who is retired military) over an E4 who could do the same job. There is obviously no savings with most GS employees but you seem to endorse this as well. I had some hope for you but it is clear you are just like E9 Cody.

What wrong, does my comment threaten your future job security as a GS employee? You fully endorsed E9 Cody who turns out to be a total hypocrite and does not support the enlisted force. What does that say about you?

JD2780
04-17-2013, 01:46 PM
For the record, a CCAF is not required for promotion to SMSgt! :nerd



I tried to find the exact verbiage of congress' mandate to restore TA. Only thing I've seen is they said to restore the program as budgeted for FY13... I agree that making people come out of pocket definitely thins the herd and will weed out those doing it just to do it. Just not sure that was an option for the remainder of FY13. I'd expect to see something change for FY14.

For the record it is required for SRE. I'd like to see somebody in recent years make E-8 withough an SRE. The AF doesnt value leadership. It has proven that repeatedly. Also, lets cut another 4,000 Airmen then as for 19 more F-35s. "Airmen are our most valuable resource"

omertalifestyle
04-17-2013, 01:48 PM
People started to use TA more when we saw the writing was on the wall that at any moment we could be cut from the AF without so much as a thank you for your service. Make a mistake and get a suspended bust, you get kicked out during rollbacks, but the guy that got the hard bust and was the actual perpetrator, is saved because technically he isn't serving the A15 anymore. When PT started to get stupid, I saw a rise in people going to school. Why? College education + Military Experience = Better chance of getting a job post-military. Now you don't just see the TSgts and MSgts that are close to retirement or jockeying for that SRE going to school; you will see people of all ranks going back to school because we can't trust the service to be a good long term goal for us anymore. You used to ask a guy or gal if they were going to be a lifer, but now you can't ask that because honestly, no one knows if they will be able to make it all the way to twenty since we have vindictive people in our ranks that likes to burn everyone for even the smallest of infraction. I knew a guy recently that had an A15 leveled against him because he forgot to put a lock back on the LOX Bottle Locker, I mean yeah he had a few QA fails here and there but they were well spread out and not for the same thing. Are we really getting that nit picky that we are going to punish everyone with something that will follow them for years to come over something that good ole fashioned remedial training cannot solve? Ok so we have the GI bill, but for one, you can't use all the benefits of the Post 9/11 GI bill when you are still active duty, so you will potentially miss out on thousands in benefit money that you were promised, and two, you are faced with having to carry a full class load on top of working 10+ hours a day, and possibly having a family to look after. I know people that are having problems taking 2 classes, and you expect them to take 4-5 classes at a time, non-stop for 36 months and still be able to focus fully on their job? At least with TA you can meter your class load out for 4+ years, do your job, an come away from the military with good training, an education, and then once out you can use the GI bill to pursue a professional degree.

Pullinteeth
04-17-2013, 01:54 PM
I tried to find the exact verbiage of congress' mandate to restore TA. Only thing I've seen is they said to restore the program as budgeted for FY13... I agree that making people come out of pocket definitely thins the herd and will weed out those doing it just to do it. Just not sure that was an option for the remainder of FY13. I'd expect to see something change for FY14.

Here is what it says;

Sec. 8129. (a) Requirement To Continue Provision of Tuition Assistance for Members of the Armed Forces- The Secretaries of the military departments shall carry out tuition assistance programs for members of the Armed Forces during the remainder of fiscal year 2013 using amounts specified in subsection (b).

(b) Amounts- The minimum amount used by the Secretary of a military department for tuition assistance for members of an Armed Force under the jurisdiction of that Secretary pursuant to subsection (a) shall be not less than--

(1) the amount appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act for tuition assistance programs for members of that Armed Force, minus

(2) an amount that is not more than the percentage of the reduction required to the Operation and Maintenance account for that Armed Force for fiscal year 2013 by the budget sequester required by section 251A of the Balanced Budget and Emergency Deficit Control Act of 1985.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hr933/text

BRUWIN
04-17-2013, 02:24 PM
I never danced for the man and that is why I happily retired as an MSgt.

I wouldn't say you happily retired...you come across very bitter. Since your first post many months ago you've been slinging mud at E-8s and E-9s at every opportunity and a lot of what you say is BS. I agree there's a problem in these ranks...but you blame the whole state of the AF on them and anybody that disagrees with you is an "E-9."

CrustySMSgt
04-17-2013, 02:50 PM
Do I detect some anger since you fully endorsed E9 Cody and he turns out to be worse than E9 Roy? I am sure it makes perfect sense to you to have a GS10 civilian (who is retired military) over an E4 who could do the same job. There is obviously no savings with most GS employees but you seem to endorse this as well. I had some hope for you but it is clear you are just like E9 Cody.

What wrong, does my comment threaten your future job security as a GS employee? You fully endorsed E9 Cody who turns out to be a total hypocrite and does not support the enlisted force. What does that say about you?

Angry? oh hell no! Life's too short to get angry over the opinion of bitter retired MSgt who talks a lot about what he'd do if he was in charge yet didn't make the cut to have a vote. No anger here, but I might suggest a peek in the mirror! I'm not gonna cry myself to sleep tonight because you no longer have hope for me.

GS job? No way, when I retire, I'm RETIRING! Then I'll fade away and the board will be all yours, for you, TAK, and Mr Stewart to tell each other how much today's AF sucks and how awesome it would be if you'd have been given a chance. Until then I'll be here span of influence is limited to talking shit on an internet forum (and probably to anyone in the aisles of the commisary and pharmacy waiting room who will listen).


For the record it is required for SRE. I'd like to see somebody in recent years make E-8 withough an SRE.

That was just a jab at TAK. The "party line" is, no single thing will exclude you from promotion... now we all know the real impacts of no CCAF/PME which = SRE.

sandsjames
04-17-2013, 03:27 PM
So do you actually have dependents? Or are you still just campaigning against benefits that you personally don't have value in?

How about your retirement, let's give that up for the sake of Country, how about that?

I do have dependents. They are NOT in the military (as much as some will claim they are).

For one to claim that TA and "education" helps the mission is a joke. Be honest with yourself. The use of TA by the majority of people is about nothing more than a career AFTER the Air Force. It's not mission essential. We functioned just fine before the push for degreed enlisted members.

TA is a great thing, don't get me wrong. But in a budget crunch, it is not a necessity.

As far as my retirement, I'd be willing to drop it to 40%.

sandsjames
04-17-2013, 03:31 PM
When cmsaf said no TA and in.same email that they were keeping ccaf req for smsgt,
He showed true colors. And those colors run.

Why is that? Why should the requirement change? (I DO NOT agree with the requirement, by the way). Does it not show actual "above and beyond" if the person is willing to sacrifice something of their own to reach the position?

Tak
04-17-2013, 03:38 PM
Crusty and I have a love/hate relationship.

At the moment I love him.

Fyi, my heart loves the AF, but my mind got jaded.

Tak
04-17-2013, 03:41 PM
Why is that? Why should the requirement change? (I DO NOT agree with the requirement, by the way). Does it not show actual "above and beyond" if the person is willing to sacrifice something of their own to reach the position?

It's like an unfunded mission, don't expect it to happen.

It's not above and beyond, its an officer req put on enlisted.

Tak
04-17-2013, 03:43 PM
For the record it is required for SRE. I'd like to see somebody in recent years make E-8 withough an SRE. The AF doesnt value leadership. It has proven that repeatedly. Also, lets cut another 4,000 Airmen then as for 19 more F-35s. "Airmen are our most valuable resource"

Did you not see his hip emoticon?
RC would be proud.

As I am for crusty's trollish behavior as a chief
Scared to retire.

Tak
04-17-2013, 03:44 PM
Anyone else want a piece.

sandsjames
04-17-2013, 03:45 PM
It's like an unfunded mission, don't expect it to happen.

It's not above and beyond, its an officer req put on enlisted.

I realize that getting a CCAF isn't above and beyond. What I'm saying is that a person taking time and money out of their own pocket is putting in more of an effort than someone who only does it if the Air Force gives them the time and money to do it (like the difference between doing volunteer work on your off duty time vs. a car wash during duty hours).

Tak
04-17-2013, 03:56 PM
I realize that getting a CCAF isn't above and beyond. What I'm saying is that a person taking time and money out of their own pocket is putting in more of an effort than someone who only does it if the Air Force gives them the time and money to do it (like the difference between doing volunteer work on your off duty time vs. a car wash during duty hours).

Time and money...people on clock 24/7 for AF.

SomeRandomGuy
04-17-2013, 04:04 PM
Saw something on the "AF Memes" FB page this morning, a letter to residents of Wright Patt lodging saying they were cutting cable, so someone is finally listening to you! Not sure if it is AF-wide or just at WP. .

I just thought of something else..............CORONA is hosted every year at WPAFB in June (probably because they have 3 golf courses on base). What are the chances they leave the cable off in billeting during that week? My guess it that it somehow gets turned back on for that week because it is mission essential.

sandsjames
04-17-2013, 04:07 PM
I just thought of something else..............CORONA is hosted every year at WPAFB in June (probably because they have 3 golf courses on base). What are the chances they leave the cable off in billeting during that week? My guess it that it somehow gets turned back on for that week because it is mission essential.

It's instances like this that remind me to always travel with my porn collection.

VFFTSGT
04-17-2013, 04:28 PM
Saw something on the "AF Memes" FB page this morning, a letter to residents of Wright Patt lodging saying they were cutting cable, so someone is finally listening to you! Not sure if it is AF-wide or just at WP.

Billeting is NAF...theoretically they are paying for cable with money they bring in, not tax dollars.

I know overall they are subsidized by the AF; to what extent I am not sure.

I am referring to cable in the office, MPF, Clinic, commander's office, etc.


I tried to find the exact verbiage of congress' mandate to restore TA. Only thing I've seen is they said to restore the program as budgeted for FY13... I agree that making people come out of pocket definitely thins the herd and will weed out those doing it just to do it. Just not sure that was an option for the remainder of FY13. I'd expect to see something change for FY14.

I meant before Congress got involved....when the AF/DOD originally cut TA not after Congress got involved.

DWWSWWD
04-17-2013, 04:51 PM
As far as my retirement, I'd be willing to drop it to 40%. Thank you for your sacrifice. You guys are making me feel guilty so here goes. I'd be willing to give up the frame shop on base. Oh, and because I'm feeling particularly patriotic today, Frank's Franks. Glad to help.

sandsjames
04-17-2013, 04:54 PM
Thank you for your sacrifice. You guys are making me feel guilty so here goes. I'd be willing to give up the frame shop on base. Oh, and because I'm feeling particularly patriotic today, Frank's Franks. Glad to help.

The last time I had Frank's Franks was at Ramstein and it was nasty. I will give it up, too.

BRUWIN
04-17-2013, 05:06 PM
GS job? No way, when I retire, I'm RETIRING!

I will advise you that you are on the right track. I've discovered I'm just a body to put in an empty seat while the blue suiters are off doing PT. That's no lie. Don't get me wrong...I have plenty of work when the mission is on, but I can't begin to tell you how much I move around to cover holes thanks mainly to some PT related issue, whether it be PT itself or someone dealing with the PT failure aftermath.

BRUWIN
04-17-2013, 05:09 PM
Thank you for your sacrifice. You guys are making me feel guilty so here goes. I'd be willing to give up the frame shop on base. Oh, and because I'm feeling particularly patriotic today, Frank's Franks. Glad to help.

We still have frame shops? Awesome!

Pullinteeth
04-17-2013, 05:36 PM
Thank you for your sacrifice. You guys are making me feel guilty so here goes. I'd be willing to give up the frame shop on base. Oh, and because I'm feeling particularly patriotic today, Frank's Franks. Glad to help.

The LeMay Center...

Oh, what about Historians? We have RFD and plus the AF doesn't believe in learning from their mistakes anyway....our heritage is chance so who needs to know about the past?

Absinthe Anecdote
04-17-2013, 07:31 PM
Billeting is NAF...theoretically they are paying for cable with money they bring in, not tax dollars.

I know overall they are subsidized by the AF; to what extent I am not sure.

I am referring to cable in the office, MPF, Clinic, commander's office, etc.



I meant before Congress got involved....when the AF/DOD originally cut TA not after Congress got involved.

Wow!

You are a giant fuddy duddy wanting to shut off cable at the clinic, MPF and commander’s office.

I’ll let you know that those expenses can be justified by anyone on a wing or group level staff who is worth their salt.

For anyone who might have to defend their cable connection, listen up.

First, you explain that those news feeds are to maintain situational awareness (one of my favorite buzz words). What if there was a tornado headed towards the base? In addition, since our mission is global, we need to maintain global situational awareness as well as local situational awareness. Those cable feeds are mission oriented.

Second, you just explain that you are getting a cheaper rate by piping the cable feed into places like the MPF.

If that doesn’t keep the unbeliever with the budget axe away, use the different pot-o-money technique.

Explain how the budget is like a well-orchestrated ballet and that the cable bill is paid for from a different pot of money. Waive your hand dismissively at the axe man then reinforce this idea by cutting loose with a stream of fiscal terms and then assume an authoritative stance by placing your hands on your hips.

Tak
04-17-2013, 08:08 PM
Wow!

You are a giant fuddy duddy wanting to shut off cable at the clinic, MPF and commander’s office.

I’ll let you know that those expenses can be justified by anyone on a wing or group level staff who is worth their salt.

For anyone who might have to defend their cable connection, listen up.

First, you explain that those news feeds are to maintain situational awareness (one of my favorite buzz words). What if there was a tornado headed towards the base? In addition, since our mission is global, we need to maintain global situational awareness as well as local situational awareness. Those cable feeds are mission oriented.

Second, you just explain that you are getting a cheaper rate by piping the cable feed into places like the MPF.

If that doesn’t keep the unbeliever with the budget axe away, use the different pot-o-money technique.

Explain how the budget is like a well-orchestrated ballet and that the cable bill is paid for from a different pot of money. Waive your hand dismissively at the axe man then reinforce this idea by cutting loose with a stream of fiscal terms and then assume an authoritative stance by placing your hands on your hips.

You know an aweful lot about nothing.

VFFTSGT
04-17-2013, 09:37 PM
You know an aweful lot about nothing.

I thought he was being sarcastic...mocking the BS excuses people use to justify wasteful spending.

Tak
04-17-2013, 09:42 PM
I thought he was being sarcastic...mocking the BS excuses people use to justify wasteful spending.

I don't know as I didn't read a word he wrote.

Rainmaker
04-17-2013, 09:43 PM
Transferability is a retention tool, like a reenlistment bonus. The writing is on the wall that it's going to go away, so All you cats wanting it to disappear, can be happy about that. In the fiscal cliff deal $76 billion in tax credits went to too big to fail corporations that already pay no taxes. As a former Registered republican Rainmaker is completely disgusted with the GOP. What now is a social conservative to do? vote for the party of misfit toys or dillusional libertarians?

In the grand scheme of things the cost of TA is a parking ticket to the government. If you haven't already realized, Once, you separate you'll quickly figure out that most Americans see no problem with sending off some other guy's kid to get his head blown off to defend their freedoms, just so long as no one sends them a bill for the kid. Hopefully, the CMSAF was misquoted. But, It does appear he is happily singing the DoD "Leadership" tune that paying for a quality force is unsustainable. I think they teach them that at the Harvard Business Seminars. These clowns need to hire a PR firm and quit with the cheerleading cut talk. He would've just been better off saying nothing. Rainmaker beginning to agree that it's time to blow it up and bring back the draft.

Tak
04-17-2013, 09:45 PM
Transferability is a retention tool, like a reenlistment bonus. The writing is on the wall that it's going to go away, so All you cats wanting it to disappear, can be happy about that. In the fiscal cliff deal $76 billion in tax credits went to too big to fail corporations that already pay no taxes. As a former Registered republican Rainmaker is completely disgusted with the GOP. What now is a social conservative to do? vote for the party of misfit toys or dillusional libertarians?

In the grand scheme of things the cost of TA is a parking ticket to the government. If you haven't already realized, Once, you seperate you'll quickly figure out that most Americans see no problem with sending off some other guy's kid to get his head blown off to defend their freedoms, just so long as no one sends them a bill for the kid. Hopefully, the CMSAF was misquoted. But, It does appear he is just singing the DoD "Leadership" tune that paying for a quality force is unsustainable. These clowns need to hire a PR firm and quit with the cheerleading cut talk. He would've just been better off saying nothing. Rainmaker beginning to agree tha it's time to blow it up and bring back the draft.

Das raciss

Tak
04-17-2013, 09:58 PM
Never confuse education with intelligence.

VFFTSGT
04-17-2013, 09:58 PM
In the grand scheme of things the cost of TA is a parking ticket to the government. If you haven't already realized, Once, you separate you'll quickly figure out that most Americans see no problem with sending off some other guy's kid to get his head blown off to defend their freedoms, just so long as no one sends them a bill for the kid. Hopefully, the CMSAF was misquoted. But, It does appear he is happily singing the DoD "Leadership" tune that paying for a quality force is unsustainable. I think they teach them that at the Harvard Business Seminars. These clowns need to hire a PR firm and quit with the cheerleading cut talk. He would've just been better off saying nothing. Rainmaker beginning to agree that it's time to blow it up and bring back the draft.

Nope...here is the quotes:



That $90 million could have kept two squadrons flying amid budget cuts that have forced the grounding of 17 combat-coded squadrons, said Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force James Cody, at an April 12 air*man’s call at Joint Base Andrews, Md.

...

“So then we’re going to walk into the work center, right,” he said. “We’re going to walk in there and say, ‘Where’s all our civilians?’ They’re not in today because we furloughed them. So they’re not getting paid their entitlement, and they’re strug*gling to figure out how they’re going to pay their mortgage.

“Then we’re going to walk a little deeper into the work center and we’re going to see a young airman sitting at a computer termi*nal taking an online course that we’re pay*ing for with tuition assistance. That’s national defense. Is that what we’re here to do?” Although the decision to suspend tuition assistance was tough, it was the right one, Cody said.

“Please let’s be clear that we are here to serve, not to be served,” he said. “If you’re not right with that in your head, then you need to be thinking about what’s next for you after this enlistment.”

Pg 13 this weeks times.

The civilians shouldn't be furloughed either. I get his point of view on that, but that was a bad call too. Sequestration was a cut to proposed increased spending. The AF spent at those unapproved levels betting sequestration wouldn't happen. That is why all these cuts are having to be made...spending money we didn't have...bad financial management. The generals and GS-15's that made these bad calls should have to front all of this money out of pocket they spent.

Rainmaker
04-17-2013, 10:01 PM
Das raciss

Only Rainmaker's baby momma knows what's up with the scrilla.

Rainmaker
04-17-2013, 10:05 PM
Nope...here is the quotes:



Pg 13 this weeks times.

The civilians shouldn't be furloughed either. I get his point of view on that, but that was a bad call too. Sequestration was a cut to proposed increased spending. The AF spent at those unapproved levels betting sequestration wouldn't happen. That is why all these cuts are having to be made...spending money we didn't have...bad financial management.

He said that?? Damn... who in the hell let they airman take classes on duty time. Rainmaker never did that wiff mines!

Rainmaker
04-17-2013, 10:12 PM
Never confuse education with intelligence.

Rainmaker never do. but, if a muhfuggah going to be a slave on the white colla plantation when he get out he need that sheepskin.

Absinthe Anecdote
04-18-2013, 05:21 AM
You know an aweful lot about nothing.

What’s wrong Tak?

Are people not paying enough attention to your posts?

Are you feeling ignored and neglected?

Is that why you are taking jabs at me? I guess you feel the need to stir up yet another little mini drama so you can be the center of attention.

I can’t help but notice you’ve been spending a lot of time on the forums lately. You’ve been posting in damn near every thread and of course your little “Tak’s Life Thread”.

Remember the time PYB suggested that you spend a little less time on the internet and a little more time attending to your children?

You remember that don’t you? I think PYB was probably right.

Now that I have posted something nasty about you, feel free to create as much drama as you need.

Tak
04-18-2013, 05:26 AM
What’s wrong Tak?

Are people not paying enough attention to your posts?

Are you feeling ignored and neglected?

Is that why you are taking jabs at me? I guess you feel the need to stir up yet another little mini drama so you can be the center of attention.

I can’t help but notice you’ve been spending a lot of time on the forums lately. You’ve been posting in damn near every thread and of course your little “Tak’s Life Thread”.

Remember the time PYB suggested that you spend a little less time on the internet and a little more time attending to your children?

You remember that don’t you? I think PYB was probably right.

Now that I have posted something nasty about you, feel free to create as much drama as you need.

Great to hear your thoughts, I've actually been pretty busy scraping popcorn ceiling and taking
Kids to basketball. Hope all is going well with you and I like to see you let my jabs
Roll as I let yours, all good fun. Have a great rest of the week.
Note, it wasn't my friend pyb who said that above, it
Was my other friends flaps and blue warrior. Did you
Know we were all actually friends and made up the
War as a joke. You didn't actually buy into that stuff right?

CrustySMSgt
04-18-2013, 08:08 AM
Crusty and I have a love/hate relationship.

At the moment I love him.

Fyi, my heart loves the AF, but my mind got jaded.

awww... :hug


As I am for crusty's trollish behavior as a chief
Scared to retire.

Not scared... some days I'd like to do nothing more! Other days I still love being there for Airmen and being a part of the team. The day will come soon... will just depend on what my next job will be. It'll either keep me around to HYT in 15 or push me off the fence to retiring in early 14.

FLAPS
04-18-2013, 10:59 AM
According to AirForce.com, 17-18 year olds should have no reason to doubt they'll actually receive the bennies the Air Force is touting. If they added a statement under each link, "Current benefits are not guaranteed throughout the entire duration of one's enlistment, term of service or career," then I'd have more respect for the Air Force's recruiting efforts.