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imported_CLSE
04-09-2013, 08:58 PM
Looking for some input/advice from anybody who's been through this or is familiar with it.

As I've mentioned before, I have a gait problem that slows me down on the run, the issue has been diagnosed by a podiatrist and I can and have been succesfully passing my PT tests doing the walk.

The problem is that I have to get put on a profile every time that I test so that I can do the walk.

This means that every six months, just before I'm due to test, I have to go to my civilian podiatrist (I'm a reservist) who writes up a letter that basically says "TSgt CLSE has a gait abnormality that results in exertional compartment syndrome and limits his ability to run. It won't get better, but it won't get worse."

I did this for 3 PT tests with no problem, I get put on the profile for 30 days, no duty restrictions and no mobility restrictions.

Last summer, I went in to get my profile done and the doc that I was talking to was new, so she did my paperwork, put me on the walk, no duty or mobility restrictions. But, she wants to check with one of the other docs before she lets me go.

He comes in and starts asking me about the condition, I explain it and give him a quick history. He goes into a spiel about how they need to be sure about what it is because they need to know that I can safely deploy. He says "We need to know that you can carry 40 pounds of gear in 115 degree heat". I tell him "I've done that, went to Afghanistan and Kuwait and I train at home with a 45 pound ruck in 100+ degree heat."

Doc: "Well, we need to be sure, we don't know for sure what's wrong."

They give me paperwork to take back to my civilian podiatrist. It's a two hour drive each way to see my podiatrist and if it's a work day, I have to use my sick leave from my civilian job to cover it.

So, I go back, get the info, send it to the Med group and a couple of weeks later I'm told there's no problem.

Fast forward to this past January. I go in for my next profile to do the walk.

The doc who's doing my profile looks at my stuff and immediately says "I don't think you should be worldwide qualified if you can't do the run on the PT test, but I can't decide that, so I referring your records to a deployment assessment working group." We have the same conversation about me being able to deploy, I tell him I have and how I train, blah, blah.

He says "Well, I don't think the 40lbs and 100 yards is valid and as far as I'm concerned, anybody who can't do the run on the PT test shouldn't be deployable."

I was getting ready to go to a tech school (another story there), so a couple of weeks later, I call the med group to find out what's going on so I don't get to the school and then get told that I'm no-points/no-pay because the med group referred my stuff to AFRC.

I get in to see a different doc, he looks at my stuff and then starts telling me that my problem may not be exertional compartment syndrome, I could have peripheral artery disease or some other circulatory problem and at high risk of a heart attack.

He doesn't bother to send me for any testing or recommend that I get any done, he just says that he can't make the decision and he's going to refer my stuff to the DAWG again, but he's also going to recommend that it be sent to the AFRC Surgeon General because they're the only ones with the authority to make the decision.

I later found out that he wrote in the notes that he was recommeding that I be made non-worldwide qualified and restricted to deployments w/in CONUS at bases with fixed MTFs.

So, basically, he's saying that he doesn't believe my podiatrist and he thinks I could have some other problem, but has no proof and isn't even going to check or recommend that I get checked for any of those problems and based on that, he's going to send that to AFRC and recommend that I be disqualified for worldwide deployment.

I've since been notified that I've been put on a no-points/no-pay profile because neither the doc or the clinic bothered to tell me that they gave me a suspense to get paperwork from my civilian docs.

As I was writing this, I got a 469 from my UHM telling her about my needing to bring the paperwork in. I saw the doc during February drill, they sent the 469 to my UHM on March 25th with a suspense of March 31st. Nice.

I'm sick of dealing with this crap. My chain of command has thrown up their hands and says they have no control over it because it's the med group.

Does anybody know if there is some way that I can force this up to AFRC to have them make a decision. I know they could make a decision that I don't like, but at least I won't have to go through the Marx Brothers school of medicine every six months and deal with this crap repeatedly.

technomage1
04-09-2013, 09:10 PM
"Well, I don't think the 40lbs and 100 yards is valid and as far as I'm concerned, anybody who can't do the run on the PT test shouldn't be deployable."

What a load of manure. I love to run, think it's a great pastime and would do it even if I didn't need to for the AF. Having said that, there are a lot of conditions I can think of where a person is qualified to serve but can't run. That doesn't mean that you can't deploy, or it shouldn't.

If they don't want to accept the diagnosis of the specialist (podiatrist) then why did they send you to him or her in the first place? And why aren't they paying for a second opinion in that case?

I'm sure some people try to game the system by going to a civilian doc to get out of the run, but that doesn't mean everyone does.

VFFTSGT
04-09-2013, 09:25 PM
He says "Well, I don't think the 40lbs and 100 yards is valid and as far as I'm concerned, anybody who can't do the run on the PT test shouldn't be deployable."

A Doc with a persoanl agenda. I would file an IG complaint.

imported_CLSE
04-09-2013, 10:34 PM
"Well, I don't think the 40lbs and 100 yards is valid and as far as I'm concerned, anybody who can't do the run on the PT test shouldn't be deployable."

What a load of manure. I love to run, think it's a great pastime and would do it even if I didn't need to for the AF. Having said that, there are a lot of conditions I can think of where a person is qualified to serve but can't run. That doesn't mean that you can't deploy, or it shouldn't.

If they don't want to accept the diagnosis of the specialist (podiatrist) then why did they send you to him or her in the first place? And why aren't they paying for a second opinion in that case?

I'm sure some people try to game the system by going to a civilian doc to get out of the run, but that doesn't mean everyone does.

I have to go to the civilian podiatrist because a) I'm a reservist and b) it's a non-duty-related issue according to the Air Force, so I don't have any choice.

They can't actually do any testing on my unless on I'm on orders over 30 days, but they can recommend that I get testing done and could even specify on the 469 that I need to get X, Y and Z tests done to screen for whatever they think is wrong.

None of them have recommended or required any testing, they just pull stuff out of their asses and completely ignore the fact that this is an overuse injury that results from running and I never exhibited any symptoms until I had to run for the PT test. Apparently, that is just a random coincidence to them.

Tak
04-09-2013, 10:56 PM
Judging from size of your post, you probably want a serious reply.
As an ex safety guy, i suggest the next time your hurt by either working
or running a pt test, you immediately fill out a safety report indicating
injury. This should route through your unit or wing safety rep and there
should be a suggestion of way ahead. This will make an official duty
tie in and log in case they take action later against you. These reports are
signed off on by commanders, which will keep them in loop and could
help with med group, as,they work in conjunction with safety. My point
is,if no one cares about your issue, flag it as an injury, it will get
attention, especially if work related. Document everything, ask drs to
put things in writing, on base you can change pcms or ask for second
opinion. Ask for references from drs,beyond opinion. Actually, the more
i type the less i remember what your issue was or what im saying.

SomeRandomGuy
04-10-2013, 02:14 PM
The doc who's doing my profile looks at my stuff and immediately says "I don't think you should be worldwide qualified if you can't do the run on the PT test, but I can't decide that, so I referring your records to a deployment assessment working group." We have the same conversation about me being able to deploy, I tell him I have and how I train, blah, blah.

He says "Well, I don't think the 40lbs and 100 yards is valid and as far as I'm concerned, anybody who can't do the run on the PT test shouldn't be deployable."

This is a load of crap. I used to work the pre deployment line for base exercises. Public health always had the table next to mine on the line. During those exercises public health practices deciding if a person is qualified for the deployment. In all of the exercises I sat in on the deployment location was either Iraq or Afghanistan. I overheard the public health doctors talking about both exercise and real world profiles (they normally brought their normal work with them to keep them busy between groups). This is where I learned the basic rule is that in general if you can run 100 yards without stopping you are normally worldwide qualified. In my opinion the run 100 yards with a 40lb pack is all that matters. Unless you are in some hardcore AFSC I cannot imagine a time where anyone would be required to run more than 100 yards during battle. If I am taking fire I am either going to keep my cover location or run to the nearest cover location. I highly doubt that location is going to be a mile and a half away.

JD2780
04-10-2013, 03:37 PM
Get a lawyer that specializes in this stuff. A bunch of TACPs got the boot for the ground based controller physical that was thrown into place with out thinking. They got medical retirement and had been in about 8-9 years. Have them review everything. Be nosey about the process. I wasn't as nosey as I should've been and got screwed. You're your most enthusiastic advocate. Take advantage of it.

JD2780
04-10-2013, 03:39 PM
This is a load of crap. I used to work the pre deployment line for base exercises. Public health always had the table next to mine on the line. During those exercises public health practices deciding if a person is qualified for the deployment. In all of the exercises I sat in on the deployment location was either Iraq or Afghanistan. I overheard the public health doctors talking about both exercise and real world profiles (they normally brought their normal work with them to keep them busy between groups). This is where I learned the basic rule is that in general if you can run 100 yards without stopping you are normally worldwide qualified. In my opinion the run 100 yards with a 40lb pack is all that matters. Unless you are in some hardcore AFSC I cannot imagine a time where anyone would be required to run more than 100 yards during battle. If I am taking fire I am either going to keep my cover location or run to the nearest cover location. I highly doubt that location is going to be a mile and a half away.

Valid point. Now the fatties may get over excited, then sprint that 100m then die of heart attack

imported_CLSE
04-10-2013, 03:47 PM
Get a lawyer that specializes in this stuff. A bunch of TACPs got the boot for the ground based controller physical that was thrown into place with out thinking. They got medical retirement and had been in about 8-9 years. Have them review everything. Be nosey about the process. I wasn't as nosey as I should've been and got screwed. You're your most enthusiastic advocate. Take advantage of it.


I remember you talking about that, any possibility that you'll be able to appeal or somethinig and get medical retirement?

JD2780
04-10-2013, 03:53 PM
I remember you talking about that, any possibility that you'll be able to appeal or somethinig and get medical retirement?

Yes I'm in the process of gathering my stuff now. Also getting my congressman involved. Since per other AF flight surgeons I was never official diagnosed, therefore shouldn't have been DQ'd from the AFsc. Lots of BS.

SomeRandomGuy
04-10-2013, 05:55 PM
Real quick my two cents, I am also aware of the 100m sprint as being a deciding factor for profile and WW qualified and the weight requirement from what I was told is because of your gear. I am also not qualified because I am not able to run 100m, the reasoning I was told was because you have to be able to sprint for cover. I was told that if I can return to pushups and the walk test that I would be qualified to deploy. I've had 5 back surgeries and require a fifth on my lumbar and will also need one on my cervical spine. The funny thing is that this is very common in my career field and I've seen 3 MEB'd in the past year from my shop for the same thing, however I've been profiled for 3 years and even though the AFI says I'm supposed to go in front of the DAWG they have yet to send my package. I asked my shirt about it and he said it's because I've been in 18 years and the squadron views this differently than the guy that's been in 5. Talk about fairness, in so many words he told me I'd be able to retire, I do appreciate it but do not think it's very fair to the other guy.

I have also seen this exact same thing. We had a girl in my office who was having issues with her back after a pregnancy. She was on and off profiles but was making progress. We had a tasking come down for a TCN deployment. Even though the squadron had 10 volunteers they chose her. They did this knowing she was having back issues and had an 8 month old child. She promptly went to the doctor who placed her back on a profile. This cancelled her deployment and automatically set her up for an MEB. She ended up getting seperated and I believe recieved 50% disability. She used that disability rating to land a sweet GS12 position (she had a bachelor's degree) and is now collecting GS 12 pay and a disability check. Hahaha who is laughing now?

All of the above happened in the same squadron that had a MSgt (over 20) who had not taken any PT test in almost 4 years (not even the walk). For some reason the squadron felt the need to intentionally MEB an A1C for deployment dodgeing instead of getting rid of a useless MSgt who was already retirement eligible anyways. The system is far from fair and is often used as a tool by those in power to harass or separate people.

WeaponsTSGT
04-10-2013, 06:12 PM
Real quick my two cents, I am also aware of the 100m sprint as being a deciding factor for profile and WW qualified and the weight requirement from what I was told is because of your gear. I am also not qualified because I am not able to run 100m, the reasoning I was told was because you have to be able to sprint for cover. I was told that if I can return to pushups and the walk test that I would be qualified to deploy. I've had 5 back surgeries and require a fifth on my lumbar and will also need one on my cervical spine. The funny thing is that this is very common in my career field and I've seen 3 MEB'd in the past year from my shop for the same thing, however I've been profiled for 3 years and even though the AFI says I'm supposed to go in front of the DAWG they have yet to send my package. I asked my shirt about it and he said it's because I've been in 18 years and the squadron views this differently than the guy that's been in 5. Talk about fairness, in so many words he told me I'd be able to retire, I do appreciate it but do not think it's very fair to the other guy.

imported_CLSE
04-11-2013, 02:27 PM
This is not helpful to your situation, but I have to say: This kind of medical group BS is why i'm glad I retired. It was already ludicrous dealing with the 3 year renewal for the waiver I had. I can't imagine going through that every 6 months. To paraphrase Bill, "I feel your pain."

The only thing I can think of is a) going to the patient advocate in the Med Group, supposedly they are there to resolve exactly this kind of problem and b) file an IG complaint.

Thanks for mentioning the patient advocate...that said, it appears that reserve Med Groups don't have them.

However, I was pointed to the Chief at our Med Group, apparently they wear that hat in the reserve units.

Also, as an update for everybody, in case you get to participate in this kind of fun yourself, the two key AFIs are 48-123 and 10-203.

Between the two, I have been able to determine that there is nothing that requires the med group to send my case to a DAWG.

However, your commander or a doc can elect to send your case for review, but your commander can also non-concur on a recommendation to put you on a mobility restriction and if both your unit commander and commander at the next level up non-concur with the recommendation, they can keep you worldwide qualified.

As a matter of fact, 10-203 specifically states, and even repeats, "Medical conditions impacting the fitness assessment only and not impacting mobility, retention, or AFSC duties do not automatically require Initial RILO."

According to 48-123, medical qualification for worldwide deployment is based on your range of motion, strength, endurance, etc, as related to your primary duties.

You have to have a profile of 4 to be non-worldwide qualified and a profile of 4 means that you are effectively crippled ("severely compromised" is the wording used in the chart) are and unable to do your job.

A profile of 1, 2 or 3 means that you are worldwide qualified.

So, a DLC for the PT test in and of itself does not make you non-worldwide qualified, the physical restrictions that your particular injury/condition impose are what determine your qualification for worldwide deployment.

technomage1
04-11-2013, 10:24 PM
Thanks for mentioning the patient advocate...that said, it appears that reserve Med Groups don't have them.

However, I was pointed to the Chief at our Med Group, apparently they wear that hat in the reserve units.

Also, as an update for everybody, in case you get to participate in this kind of fun yourself, the two key AFIs are 48-123 and 10-203.

Between the two, I have been able to determine that there is nothing that requires the med group to send my case to a DAWG.

However, your commander or a doc can elect to send your case for review, but your commander can also non-concur on a recommendation to put you on a mobility restriction and if both your unit commander and commander at the next level up non-concur with the recommendation, they can keep you worldwide qualified.

As a matter of fact, 10-203 specifically states, and even repeats, "Medical conditions impacting the fitness assessment only and not impacting mobility, retention, or AFSC duties do not automatically require Initial RILO."

According to 48-123, medical qualification for worldwide deployment is based on your range of motion, strength, endurance, etc, as related to your primary duties.

You have to have a profile of 4 to be non-worldwide qualified and a profile of 4 means that you are effectively crippled ("severely compromised" is the wording used in the chart) are and unable to do your job.

A profile of 1, 2 or 3 means that you are worldwide qualified.

So, a DLC for the PT test in and of itself does not make you non-worldwide qualified, the physical restrictions that your particular injury/condition impose are what determine your qualification for worldwide deployment.

Good info to know. thanks for sharing it.