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View Full Version : When did being in the USAF become "just a job"?



imported_DannyJ
03-15-2013, 01:16 PM
Thoughts anyone?

JD2780
03-15-2013, 01:28 PM
When it became more of a corporation than a military service component.

sandsjames
03-15-2013, 01:34 PM
When the focus started on making our pay scale in line with civilian counterparts (which fits into JDs answer).

TVANSCOT
03-15-2013, 01:44 PM
I don't believe that this is a blanket statement, many people serve for different reasons, certainly for some it is just a job. For others there may be different drivers. At the end of the day, looking forward to a job well done works regardless of military or civilian, even if it "just a job" it can still be satisfying and done well.

CrustySMSgt
03-15-2013, 01:45 PM
it is what you make of it... no different than any line of work.

Drackore
03-15-2013, 02:24 PM
Knew a guy when I worked in a machine shop...he was gung-ho....ensured every tool and die he spit out was the best product he ever made. He got promoted to floor super, pissed off all the other machinists that were there longer. They all had this idea that seniority was the only determining factor. He was called ass kisser, suck up, boss's bitch, etc. He didn't care...his paycheck got fatter. There was another guy there...showed up, did his job, went home. Didn't hang with us after work, didn't go to lunch with us. He was ok and personable, but he said "I have a life outside of this place and I prefer to keep the two separate" and so he did. No one hated him, but he didn't get raises or promotions, and he never asked for em either.

I see it all the time in the AF. I see the people that work very hard, take pride in what they do, and become the target of scorn from their peers. They promote, get more responsibility, get cut some slack. I see the ass kissers that don't really work and also get the same perks. I see the people just just come in and do their job and they eventually promote, just not as fast.

Then you have the whiny dirtbags that sit around and bitch all the time, make fun of those that work, and wonder why they never get a break.

bluecyclone1
03-15-2013, 02:48 PM
The day Merrill A McPrick became CSAF.

VFFTSGT
03-15-2013, 02:56 PM
When it became more of a corporation than a military service component.

I guess it's always been just a job for me. Maybe the first couple years were more but that's before I learned of the hypocrisy, double standards, corruption, wasteful spending, wars that have nothing to do with defending the US/freedom, etc.

Dan-O
03-15-2013, 03:02 PM
When politicians use our paychecks and benefits as a bargining chip and when leadership babysits us with their policies. The mindset of todays leaders is more of a corporate approach now that the ground conflicts overseas are drawing to a close. We have to be careful because if things kick off with N. Korea and Iran its going to make things even tougher in the Big Blue.

VFFTSGT
03-15-2013, 03:10 PM
When politicians use our paychecks and benefits as a bargining chip and when leadership babysits us with their policies. The mindset of todays leaders is more of a corporate approach now that the ground conflicts overseas are drawing to a close. We have to be careful because if things kick off with N. Korea and Iran its going to make things even tougher in the Big Blue.

Well, the Military Industrial Complex cannot survive without persistent "Overseas Contingency Operations." With Iraq gone and Afghanistan going...we will see more propoganda by our state media. It's not a matter of if but of when.

Dan-O
03-15-2013, 03:18 PM
Well, the Military Industrial Complex cannot survive without persistent "Overseas Contingency Operations." With Iraq gone and Afghanistan going...we will see more propoganda by our state media. It's not a matter of if but of when.

Yup thats what I was getting at and its only going to get worse.

VFFTSGT
03-15-2013, 03:33 PM
Yup thats what I was getting at and its only going to get worse.

I don't plan on sticking around for it.

71Fish
03-15-2013, 04:15 PM
TQM.:frusty

DaveIn3D
03-15-2013, 04:19 PM
The blue becomes 'just a job' to different people at different times. It became that for me when at 5 1/2 years in I was faced with the reenlistment question. Do I reenlist in my AFSC? Do I crosstrain into another AFSC? As I was already planning on 20, those questions were on my mind for more than a few months. During my period of reflection, I had a buddy do blue to green. That move of his opened me to another question; Do I love the Air Force enough to do another 14 years in it? Thats when I though about all I had done, where I had been, and the culture of the Air Force I had been subjected to during that enlistment. It was then, as a SSGT 3C2, 606TH ACS at Spang, that I decided that the Air Force was just a job. I signed up for the military. I want a tough regimented lifestyle. I need to be yelled at sometimes and sometimes I would rather yell instead of paperworking someone to death. I craved what the Air Force didnt offer. That was when the choice was made in my head to switch to the Marines. I had to start from the bottom again, but 6 1/2 years later I am about to pin SSGT (E-6) and I am only behind my former A.F. peers by about a year in promotions. More to the point, I couldnt be happier with my choice to change branches.

-3D

JD2780
03-15-2013, 05:39 PM
The blue becomes 'just a job' to different people at different times. It became that for me when at 5 1/2 years in I was faced with the reenlistment question. Do I reenlist in my AFSC? Do I crosstrain into another AFSC? As I was already planning on 20, those questions were on my mind for more than a few months. During my period of reflection, I had a buddy do blue to green. That move of his opened me to another question; Do I love the Air Force enough to do another 14 years in it? Thats when I though about all I had done, where I had been, and the culture of the Air Force I had been subjected to during that enlistment. It was then, as a SSGT 3C2, 606TH ACS at Spang, that I decided that the Air Force was just a job. I signed up for the military. I want a tough regimented lifestyle. I need to be yelled at sometimes and sometimes I would rather yell instead of paperworking someone to death. I craved what the Air Force didnt offer. That was when the choice was made in my head to switch to the Marines. I had to start from the bottom again, but 6 1/2 years later I am about to pin SSGT (E-6) and I am only behind my former A.F. peers by about a year in promotions. More to the point, I couldnt be happier with my choice to change branches.

-3D

Thats why I'm glad I went the route i did as a TACP. AF benefits while still having the Armyish regimental life style. Formation PT, formation runs, standing at parade rest for folks senior to me.

JD2780
03-15-2013, 05:40 PM
Serious answer...
Early 90's mcpeak, quality af, whole person concept

My father-in-law said the same exact thing when I asked him.

JD2780
03-15-2013, 05:44 PM
Yes I did son.

Thanks for the Growler of Alaskan Amber. It was delicious!!!

imported_DannyJ
03-15-2013, 05:48 PM
I suppose it may just be the unit here. Not much in the way of military bearing on the whole, people get away with "calling in sick", all the young ones are talking about getting out, etc...

JD2780
03-15-2013, 05:52 PM
I suppose it may just be the unit here. Not much in the way of military bearing on the whole, people get away with "calling in sick", all the young ones are talking about getting out, etc...

Yup, thats how its been going. Its going down hill. You could start being asshole and demand folks to stand at parade rest when talking to folks senior to them. Of course that means doing it yourself. Not saying you dont, just going with the age old phrase of we gotta practice what we preach

DaveIn3D
03-15-2013, 06:21 PM
Thats why I'm glad I went the route i did as a TACP. AF benefits while still having the Armyish regimental life style. Formation PT, formation runs, standing at parade rest for folks senior to me.

I did look at TACP but my colorvision prohibited that, CCT, PJ, and EOD. I could have kept my rank with the army but I would have lost my self respect if i went that route. I think the navy is worse than the blue in some respects so it wouldnt have been much of a change, mostly vocabulary, going that way. The coasties, at the time, were just DOT. They dont even count.

The Corps is the only place that a tree-huggin maoist like Joe and a killing them till they are dead military industialist like myself can get together and blow shit up without issue. You can also act gayer than a biker in castro and not actually be gay. Greta stuff.

-3D

JD2780
03-15-2013, 06:39 PM
I did look at TACP but my colorvision prohibited that, CCT, PJ, and EOD. I could have kept my rank with the army but I would have lost my self respect if i went that route. I think the navy is worse than the blue in some respects so it wouldnt have been much of a change, mostly vocabulary, going that way. The coasties, at the time, were just DOT. They dont even count.

The Corps is the only place that a tree-huggin maoist like Joe and a killing them till they are dead military industialist like myself can get together and blow shit up without issue. You can also act gayer than a biker in castro and not actually be gay. Greta stuff.

-3D

At the same time the coasties have a sweet gig.

SomeRandomGuy
03-15-2013, 06:44 PM
At the same time the coasties have a sweet gig.

I would have loved to join the Coast Guard. The only problem is that I am originally from the Midwest. When I joined the AF the Coast Guard MEPS station in Kansas City, MO had a quota of one recruit per year. The didn't even maintain a full time staff there. From what I have heard they mostly only recruit from locations close to where they have a prescence which is mostly on the coasts.

DaveIn3D
03-15-2013, 06:50 PM
At the same time the coasties have a sweet gig.

My brother did 8 years in the coasties. He had to PCS every 2 years. Thats why he got out. It was getting too hard on his kids.

-3D

combatrob
03-15-2013, 08:40 PM
For me, it was when the politics of our paychecks and retirement hit home. Specifically, the two half deposits as well as the possible retirement shift they floated.

technomage1
03-15-2013, 08:51 PM
For me it was when they started treating people as if they were disposable. This would have been around 2006, 2007 or so. Downsizing in middle of two wars to pay for aircraft? Kicking people out because their waist was too big for an arbitrary standard? Putting our people on 6 month dwells because the Army f-'ed up and didn't have enough people? When supervisors, supers, etc on up the chain stopped taking care of our Airmen.

Since that time, I've seen more and more that it doesn't matter how hard you work, if you don't @$$ kiss you don't get the promotion or recognition. And after a while it grinds on you. You don't put in the same effort that you used to.

You want the culture we used to have, you can't continue to treat people like this. "Hey, I need you to work your butt off but tomorrow you might be gone no matter what you do" just doesn't fly.

KellyinAvon
03-16-2013, 12:23 AM
For me it was when they started treating people as if they were disposable. This would have been around 2006, 2007 or so. Downsizing in middle of two wars to pay for aircraft? Kicking people out because their waist was too big for an arbitrary standard? Putting our people on 6 month dwells because the Army f-'ed up and didn't have enough people? When supervisors, supers, etc on up the chain stopped taking care of our Airmen.

Since that time, I've seen more and more that it doesn't matter how hard you work, if you don't @$$ kiss you don't get the promotion or recognition. And after a while it grinds on you. You don't put in the same effort that you used to.

You want the culture we used to have, you can't continue to treat people like this. "Hey, I need you to work your butt off but tomorrow you might be gone no matter what you do" just doesn't fly.

The last day I wore the uniform was 22 May 07. I keep thinking that was a good choice.

FLAPS
03-16-2013, 12:27 AM
The last day I wore the uniform was 22 May 07. I keep thinking that was a good choice.

22 May 07 was a Tuesday. Most people's last day/ret ceremony falls on a Fri. Why Tues?

KellyinAvon
03-16-2013, 01:10 AM
Yes it was a Tuesday. I had 101 days terminal leave (20 PTDY, 81 days leave) and it lined up for a 1 Sep 07 retirement date. The day I got to my first permanent duty assignment? 22 May 86.
We do need to discuss why you're looking at the calendars for different years in the almanac. If you just knew that was a Tuesday? That's worse.

Robert F. Dorr
03-16-2013, 03:15 AM
I know exactly when the Air Force became just a job. It was the day the fighter generals took over from the bomber generals.

OtisRNeedleman
03-16-2013, 03:41 AM
Things were up and down for me. As enlisted, being a Korean linguist was just a job, and one I didn't like. Getting commissioned and being a flight commander was the mission I'd always wanted to do, not just a job. Could have done that for twenty years. As a SIGINT officer instructor, depending on who was my boss it was either an utter downer or a lot of fun. Doing acquisition management was superb until the last six months, then it became just a job. The tour at Fort Meade wasn't just a job - it was pretty much hell on earth. But the last assignment at DLI was a great way to finish.

DaveIn3D
03-16-2013, 05:47 AM
I know exactly when the Air Force became just a job. It was the day the fighter generals took over from the bomber generals.

LONGE RANGE STRATEGIC BOMBING IS DEAD. Caps added for emphasis.

-3D

KellyinAvon
03-16-2013, 10:08 AM
Things were up and down for me. As enlisted, being a Korean linguist was just a job, and one I didn't like. Getting commissioned and being a flight commander was the mission I'd always wanted to do, not just a job. Could have done that for twenty years. As a SIGINT officer instructor, depending on who was my boss it was either an utter downer or a lot of fun. Doing acquisition management was superb until the last six months, then it became just a job. The tour at Fort Meade wasn't just a job - it was pretty much hell on earth. But the last assignment at DLI was a great way to finish.

You bring up some good points Otis. It's not so much on a specific day everything, everywhere went from "it's great" to"it sucks" for everyone. Nobody flipped the switch to "SUCKS" at midnight Zulu time.

What is the mission? What do I do to support it? Who do you work with/for?

Robert F. Dorr
03-16-2013, 11:19 AM
Things were up and down for me. As enlisted, being a Korean linguist was just a job, and one I didn't like. Getting commissioned and being a flight commander was the mission I'd always wanted to do, not just a job. Could have done that for twenty years. As a SIGINT officer instructor, depending on who was my boss it was either an utter downer or a lot of fun. Doing acquisition management was superb until the last six months, then it became just a job. The tour at Fort Meade wasn't just a job - it was pretty much hell on earth. But the last assignment at DLI was a great way to finish.

Don't recall previously hearing anyone not like being a Korean linguist. Do recall vividly lots of people not liking Fort Meade.

FLAPS
03-16-2013, 12:43 PM
AFT forum service announcement:

TAK buddy, I'm concerned about you. Are you talking to a counselor on a regular basis? Your behavior is really strange.

imported_Shove_your_stupid_meeting
03-16-2013, 04:20 PM
I suppose it may just be the unit here. Not much in the way of military bearing on the whole, people get away with "calling in sick", all the young ones are talking about getting out, etc...


I think that's a familiar problem all over the place.

OtisRNeedleman
03-16-2013, 05:01 PM
Don't recall previously hearing anyone not like being a Korean linguist. Do recall vividly lots of people not liking Fort Meade. Bob, things change. When I was a linguist in the 70's most of us couldn't wait to get out. Then shortly after getting out and going back to school got a letter from some chief asking me to re-enlist. Felt like wiping my butt with the letter and sending it back. If retention were very good the AF wouldn't be putting so many students through the Korean schools at DLI.

SENDBILLMONEY
03-16-2013, 10:10 PM
Thoughts anyone?

When we started being just numbers.

Robert F. Dorr
03-17-2013, 03:04 AM
Bob, things change. When I was a linguist in the 70's most of us couldn't wait to get out. Then shortly after getting out and going back to school got a letter from some chief asking me to re-enlist. Felt like wiping my butt with the letter and sending it back. If retention were very good the AF wouldn't be putting so many students through the Korean schools at DLI.

Yes. I see what you're saying. In the 1950s, it was taken for granted by all involved that we would get out after one enlistment. The alternative might have been a career alternating between Osan and Fort Meade.

OtisRNeedleman
03-17-2013, 04:44 AM
Yes. I see what you're saying. In the 1950s, it was taken for granted by all involved that we would get out after one enlistment. The alternative might have been a career alternating between Osan and Fort Meade.

That does happen for many who stay in. Some linguists stay at Osan for years at a time, do a year or two at Fort Meade, then back to Osan, interspersed with maybe a tour at Goodfellow, then Fort Meade, and so forth. But the vast majority have had enough after one tour, and get out.

Chief_KO
03-17-2013, 12:54 PM
I was sentenced to Ft Meade for two years...don't know what was worse; the post itself, the surrounding area, the military "unfriendliness" of Maryland, the cost of living, the crime, or the building itself.

HipCat
03-17-2013, 04:12 PM
I think some/maybe many, it depends on where you work and who you work with. The first few years for me as a KC-135 crew chief, it was more then a job. I then had to cross train, for medical reasons, and the work place I went to was bad. They were just changing over to a new squadron commander and, 1sgt. Ours was the commanders first command. The 1sgt was on her last enlistment before retirement. The commander was terrible. The 1sgt was as well. She didn't really do much of anything for her people. There were even a few times when she would tell me (E5 at the time) that she had nothing to do...in the middle of the day! I kept thinking, you're a 1sgt, walk around and meet the people. See what they're doing. Anything but sit around and tell an E5 you have nothing to do.

I worked my ass off in that squadron as well. I was OJT'd into IM but, because no one else wanted it and I was good at it, I did almost nothing but computer repair for the squadron. We had the second largest account on base as well, so I kept busy. I also kept snowballing extra duties and, was assigned CAT admin. I was out of office a good amount of time and, when I was in office, I did a lot of things remotely. For some reason, those 2 combined gave those in charge some impression that I didn't do enough. So, I got crapped on a lot. I was also having another medical issue that was getting worse, which was making it tougher for me to function.

I then got orders to work with NATO SACT in Virginia. They pulled 2 IMs for the same job so, I ended up working for physical security. For some reason, I absolutely loved it! It then become more then a job again. The leadership was awesome. Even though my medical condition was still worsening, they were very understanding. I remember apologizing multiple times for having so many doctor appointments. Both the OIC and, NCOIC (which were both Navy) told me "you do more work in the half days you are here then all 5 of the others combined." Eventually, I went to a med board though (July 2007.) Both fought to keep me on but, I knew it was over the second a board was announced.

So, to me, it depends on how you treat your people. As well as how you show yourself. Treat people like crap then they will treat it like just a job. Show that you don't really care for your job, and you will get the same results.

HipCat
03-17-2013, 04:13 PM
I think some/maybe many, it depends on where you work and who you work with. The first few years for me as a KC-135 crew chief, it was more then a job. I then had to cross train, for medical reasons, and the work place I went to was bad. They were just changing over to a new squadron commander and, 1sgt. Ours was the commanders first command. The 1sgt was on her last enlistment before retirement. The commander was terrible. The 1sgt was as well. She didn't really do much of anything for her people. There were even a few times when she would tell me (E5 at the time) that she had nothing to do...in the middle of the day! I kept thinking, you're a 1sgt, walk around and meet the people. See what they're doing. Anything but sit around and tell an E5 you have nothing to do.

I worked my ass off in that squadron as well. I was OJT'd into IM but, because no one else wanted it and I was good at it, I did almost nothing but computer repair for the squadron. We had the second largest account on base as well, so I kept busy. I also kept snowballing extra duties and, was assigned CAT admin. I was out of office a good amount of time and, when I was in office, I did a lot of things remotely. For some reason, those 2 combined gave those in charge some impression that I didn't do enough. So, I got crapped on a lot. I was also having another medical issue that was getting worse, which was making it tougher for me to function.

I then got orders to work with NATO SACT in Virginia. They pulled 2 IMs for the same job so, I ended up working for physical security. For some reason, I absolutely loved it! It then become more then a job again. The leadership was awesome. Even though my medical condition was still worsening, they were very understanding. I remember apologizing multiple times for having so many doctor appointments. Both the OIC and, NCOIC (which were both Navy) told me "you do more work in the half days you are here then all 5 of the others combined." Eventually, I went to a med board though (July 2007.) Both fought to keep me on but, I knew it was over the second a board was announced.

So, to me, it depends on how you treat your people. As well as how you show yourself. Treat people like crap then they will treat it like just a job. Show that you don't really care for your job, and you will get the same results.

jondstewart
03-17-2013, 11:38 PM
I arrived at my first duty station in July of 1989 and happy to say that from the day I came in the Air Force until the day I retired, I was JUST a job. Many political ass-kisser higher-uppers will tell you if you feel that way that "you're in the wrong business". Definitely so; they treat it like a business!

The NCO's I always had the most respect for are those who knew their jobs, worked hard, didn't care for the politics, tried to take care of their troops best they could without their troops walking all over them, and retire as a TSgt or MSgt.

I actually think the "babysitting trend" started in the early 2000's when our Airmen were being coddled more than ever, but they also had a lot of restrictions and curfews on weekends. That crap didn't happen when I was an Airman! If you had to work on the weekends, you could do what you wanted as long as it wasn't illegal or interfered with your duties.

Today's Air Force is definitely stricter than the 90's one, since OPS tempo and deployments have been high since 9/11 and all those "General Order #1" restrictions on deployments. Even at Diego Garcia, our 1st Sgt was shining a flashlight on the beach to make sure there weren't young troops there making out!

OtisRNeedleman
03-17-2013, 11:42 PM
I was sentenced to Ft Meade for two years...don't know what was worse; the post itself, the surrounding area, the military "unfriendliness" of Maryland, the cost of living, the crime, or the building itself.

You got off easy, only two years. I served a three-year sentence. Only saving grace was being a joint duty assignment, they couldn't keep me longer than three years.

I was there 92-95. Base, what little we needed (BX, commissary, medical, library, kids' sports) was adequate. Didn't see Maryland as particularly unfriendly to military. Better than Monterey. We lived up Reece Road, about a mile past a large public housing project (Pioneer City) - could hear sirens from that area every day. Nasty! Every house in our little subdivision had an alarm system. The general area wasn't that great. Baltimore was mighty grim, outside the Inner Harbor. Housing cost was high, and so was electricity. Otherwise, not too bad. I met some wonderful people working in the building, but otherwise it was awful. Some good points - public libraries were pretty good. Easy to get to Washington. We all liked Hersheypark. Number of good places to eat and a lot of good food in general. King's Dominion was fun. We enjoyed watching the Bowie Baysox minor league baseball team and the University of Maryland-Baltimore County basketball team. Winters there were bleak, depressing, and just too damned long. Left in late June 95 and never looked back.

Chief_KO
03-18-2013, 01:34 AM
You got off easy, only two years. I served a three-year sentence. Only saving grace was being a joint duty assignment, they couldn't keep me longer than three years.

I was there 92-95. Base, what little we needed (BX, commissary, medical, library, kids' sports) was adequate. Didn't see Maryland as particularly unfriendly to military. Better than Monterey. We lived up Reece Road, about a mile past a large public housing project (Pioneer City) - could hear sirens from that area every day. Nasty! Every house in our little subdivision had an alarm system. The general area wasn't that great. Baltimore was mighty grim, outside the Inner Harbor. Housing cost was high, and so was electricity. Otherwise, not too bad. I met some wonderful people working in the building, but otherwise it was awful. Some good points - public libraries were pretty good. Easy to get to Washington. We all liked Hersheypark. Number of good places to eat and a lot of good food in general. King's Dominion was fun. We enjoyed watching the Bowie Baysox minor league baseball team and the University of Maryland-Baltimore County basketball team. Winters there were bleak, depressing, and just too damned long. Left in late June 95 and never looked back.

2006 - 2008 was my time. Expensive to no end...no COLA, although Andrews, Bolling, Annapolis, and other Army posts got it. My motorcycle insurance alone was $1200. Thankfully our son was in elementary school, so it wasn't too bad for him. The business area right across from the post (MD hwy 175?) looked like post apocalypse war zone. We lived on post, old housing that lost power almost monthly. The only positive thing we got from that assignment was our dog, we bought her when we first got there. Other than that, a total POS tour.

OtisRNeedleman
03-18-2013, 01:52 AM
2006 - 2008 was my time. Expensive to no end...no COLA, although Andrews, Bolling, Annapolis, and other Army posts got it. My motorcycle insurance alone was $1200. Thankfully our son was in elementary school, so it wasn't too bad for him. The business area right across from the post (MD hwy 175?) looked like post apocalypse war zone. We lived on post, old housing that lost power almost monthly. The only positive thing we got from that assignment was our dog, we bought her when we first got there. Other than that, a total POS tour.

Indeed, sounds like things had greatly declined from my time. Sorry.

Shrike
03-18-2013, 12:59 PM
For me it was when they started treating people as if they were disposable. This would have been around 2006, 2007 or so. Downsizing in middle of two wars to pay for aircraft? Kicking people out because their waist was too big for an arbitrary standard? Putting our people on 6 month dwells because the Army f-'ed up and didn't have enough people? When supervisors, supers, etc on up the chain stopped taking care of our Airmen.

Since that time, I've seen more and more that it doesn't matter how hard you work, if you don't @$$ kiss you don't get the promotion or recognition. And after a while it grinds on you. You don't put in the same effort that you used to.

You want the culture we used to have, you can't continue to treat people like this. "Hey, I need you to work your butt off but tomorrow you might be gone no matter what you do" just doesn't fly.

This, and when it became clear that the careerists had taken over.

imported_DannyJ
03-18-2013, 01:36 PM
Holy shit, ladies and gentlemen, HE'S BACK!

JD2780
03-18-2013, 01:39 PM
Holy shit, ladies and gentlemen, HE'S BACK!

And the peasants rejoiced!!!

JD2780
03-18-2013, 01:44 PM
I arrived at my first duty station in July of 1989 and happy to say that from the day I came in the Air Force until the day I retired, I was JUST a job. Many political ass-kisser higher-uppers will tell you if you feel that way that "you're in the wrong business". Definitely so; they treat it like a business!

The NCO's I always had the most respect for are those who knew their jobs, worked hard, didn't care for the politics, tried to take care of their troops best they could without their troops walking all over them, and retire as a TSgt or MSgt.

I actually think the "babysitting trend" started in the early 2000's when our Airmen were being coddled more than ever, but they also had a lot of restrictions and curfews on weekends. That crap didn't happen when I was an Airman! If you had to work on the weekends, you could do what you wanted as long as it wasn't illegal or interfered with your duties.

Today's Air Force is definitely stricter than the 90's one, since OPS tempo and deployments have been high since 9/11 and all those "General Order #1" restrictions on deployments. Even at Diego Garcia, our 1st Sgt was shining a flashlight on the beach to make sure there weren't young troops there making out!

Never heard of curfews unless you're in Korea. I'm sure you were truly part of some "hardcore AF" back before 2000. Oh wait, there still wasnt any PT, virtually no ops tempo, oh and you were in the AF. The guys from the early 80s would say you were coddled. Its just like anything else. As you get older it appears that the generation after you has it easier. While its true to a point, boes that make them any less effective? Its not like it was that hard to begin with.

As for the GO1, i remember it being against cohabitation, but not contact or sex. I used to make it a hobby when passing through manas or qatar to walk around late at night trying to find bunker bunnies. Those are some "hardcore" bases. Diego, Al Udeid, Manas. Oh well, I'll never need to smell another middle easter country ever again. Unless I go over making twice as much as I did last time and not having ANYTHING to do with the military.

Shrike
03-18-2013, 01:46 PM
Holy shit, ladies and gentlemen, HE'S BACK!

I pop in every now and then but don't really have much of an occasion to post anymore. But I do have to post every now and then just to keep my avatar in the public conscious. :)

Shrike
03-18-2013, 01:51 PM
Never heard of curfews unless you're in Korea. I'm sure you were truly part of some "hardcore AF" back before 2000. Oh wait, there still wasnt any PT, virtually no ops tempo, oh and you were in the AF. The guys from the early 80s would say you were coddled. Its just like anything else. As you get older it appears that the generation after you has it easier. While its true to a point, boes that make them any less effective? Its not like it was that hard to begin with.

As for the GO1, i remember it being against cohabitation, but not contact or sex. I used to make it a hobby when passing through manas or qatar to walk around late at night trying to find bunker bunnies. Those are some "hardcore" bases. Diego, Al Udeid, Manas. Oh well, I'll never need to smell another middle easter country ever again. Unless I go over making twice as much as I did last time and not having ANYTHING to do with the military.

JD, from '89-'01 I was on about a 2:1 deployment ops tempo and only two of the deployments I went on were to a cake location. And from '89-'94 my unit did organized unit PT.

JD2780
03-18-2013, 02:01 PM
JD, from '89-'01 I was on about a 2:1 deployment ops tempo and only two of the deployments I went on were to a cake location. And from '89-'94 my unit did organized unit PT.

Every other guy I've talked to spoke of almost no ops tempo and organized PT. I know there were certain careerfield that were busy, but the AF as whole didnt do much. For a 2:1 dwell for example, for every 8 months gone, you were 4 home? TACPs have always been on a 1:1 since they incorporated the "madatory" dwell time which is over swept away. I'm not arguing, just making sure I have the ratio right. What is your example of a not so cake locations?

Yours is the first I've heard of. Even TACPs only went to Kuwait to pull their turn making sure Saddam didnt do anything. Now and then they would send guys to the phillipines, thailand, or panama. Not much else.

Oh yea, and nice to have you back posting. It was getting dull and I enjoy your avatar!!

Shrike
03-18-2013, 02:17 PM
Every other guy I've talked to spoke of almost no ops tempo and organized PT. I know there were certain careerfield that were busy, but the AF as whole didnt do much. For a 2:1 dwell for example, for every 8 months gone, you were 4 home? TACPs have always been on a 1:1 since they incorporated the "madatory" dwell time which is over swept away. I'm not arguing, just making sure I have the ratio right. What is your example of a not so cake locations?

Yours is the first I've heard of. Even TACPs only went to Kuwait to pull their turn making sure Saddam didnt do anything. Now and then they would send guys to the phillipines, thailand, or panama. Not much else.

Oh yea, and nice to have you back posting. It was getting dull and I enjoy your avatar!!
Oops, make that 1:2 OPSTEMPO.

Every other guy you talked to must have been in some specialized career fields. We had almost continuous air operations going on in the Middle East from the end of DESERT STORM to the kick-off of DESERT STORM 2 ELECTRIC BUGALOO. Plus there was Somalia, the Yugoslavia mess, Haiti, and various and sundry drug interdiction operations sprinkled all around Central and South America. Here's some of the deployments I had from '89-'01
Honduras and other locations in Central America for over a year total.
DESERT STORM and several follow-up deployments to Saudi for 18+ months total
Egypt (cake deployment; just an awesome time)
Sarajevo
Italy (cake)
Turkey several times to some bare base locations

JD2780
03-18-2013, 02:27 PM
Oops, make that 1:2 OPSTEMPO.

Every other guy you talked to must have been in some specialized career fields. We had almost continuous air operations going on in the Middle East from the end of DESERT STORM to the kick-off of DESERT STORM 2 ELECTRIC BUGALOO. Plus there was Somalia, the Yugoslavia mess, Haiti, and various and sundry drug interdiction operations sprinkled all around Central and South America. Here's some of the deployments I had from '89-'01
Honduras and other locations in Central America for over a year total.
DESERT STORM and several follow-up deployments to Saudi for 18+ months total
Egypt (cake deployment; just an awesome time)
Sarajevo
Italy (cake)
Turkey several times to some bare base locations

I only knew of a few guys going to the Balkans sounds like it was interesting yet cold and rainy. Bare base locations meaning pissing in pots and sleeping on cots. Eating MREs and working all day? Thats what a deployment is supposed to be!!

I wasnt doubting your original 2:1 dwell, for all I know there were some specialties that possibly had to pull that off. Keeping the divorce lawyers employed is a specialty in the USAF.

AF2017
03-18-2013, 03:06 PM
For me it was 2004. When they took the fun away it became a J-O-B! Prior to 2004 we worked hard and played hard. We would go out to lunch as a group. Everyone brings there lunch now. We would go to the squadron bar, club, local drinking establishment for a beer on Friday's or the occasional weekday. Now everyone just goes home and plays Xbox. We were encouraged to support intramurals as long as we didn't abuse it. I'm not sure we have intramurals anymore, plus we can't give the time off to go due to squadron PT, CBTs or some BS meeting discussing slides about PT and CBTs. Deployments and TDYs were fun and crazy, now everyone sits in there rooms and watch's TV or plays XBox.

I think society as a whole has changed the culture. Plus with DOS rollbacks, PT and just trying to not get in trouble has really put people on the defensive and play it safe.

MACHINE666
03-18-2013, 06:55 PM
The Air Force became "just a job" when McPeak took things over and pseudo-corporatized it all. I agree with whoever posted that thread here earlier (too lazy to go back and check).

JD2780
03-19-2013, 02:07 PM
Long time lurker here. I loved the Air Force of the 70's. We had a purpose, manning and a formidable foe.

Now our primary foes are congress and ROEs. The ROEs are making hadj a formidable foe against ground troops. Now the primary purpose of the AF is to support the ground troops, which is an honorable one. It is also very much needed.

Robert F. Dorr
03-19-2013, 02:18 PM
Now our primary foes are congress and ROEs. The ROEs are making hadj a formidable foe against ground troops. Now the primary purpose of the AF is to support the ground troops, which is an honorable one. It is also very much needed.

Yes, it's honorable. But it's pointless. This is not air power. Air power exists to win wars, not to support ground troops.

JD2780
03-19-2013, 02:20 PM
Yes, it's honorable. But it's pointless. This is not air power. Air power exists to win wars, not to support ground troops.

Are you fucking with me? Pointless? Pointless? Is it pointless, to destroy the enemy with cas IOT ensure the survival of friendly troops? How do you win a war without supporting ground troops? Its been going on since WWI. You cant win with a/c alone, you cannot with with ground troops alone. Get out of the neverland fairytale that you believe only aircraft can win wars. Seriously, pull your head out of your old ass.

akruse
03-19-2013, 02:45 PM
Are you fucking with me? Pointless? Pointless? Is it pointless, to destroy the enemy with cas IOT ensure the survival of friendly troops? How do you win a war without supporting ground troops? Its been going on since WWI. You can win with a/c alone, you cannot with with ground troops alone. Get out of the neverland fairytale that you believe only aircraft can win wars. Seriously, pull your head out of your old ass.

Aircraft only can easily win wars. Its pretty simple actually. Won't ever be done that way but very easily achieved.

JD2780
03-19-2013, 04:30 PM
Aircraft only can easily win wars. Its pretty simple actually. Won't ever be done that way but very easily achieved.

Not really. Good luck with that logic. I pray to God that folks with that mentality are never in senior positions of the pentagon.

akruse
03-19-2013, 04:39 PM
Not really. Good luck with that logic. I pray to God that folks with that mentality are never in senior positions of the pentagon.

Tell me why it won't work. You're stuck in the current fight of limited engagement and limiting collateral damage. I'm talking war with a nation. Why do we need to put boots on the ground to take ground if we only need them to capitulate to our demands/requirements to end the war? If we execute war the way it should be executed, there is no need for ground troops.

SomeRandomGuy
03-19-2013, 04:47 PM
Tell me why it won't work. You're stuck in the current fight of limited engagement and limiting collateral damage. I'm talking war with a nation. Why do we need to put boots on the ground to take ground if we only need them to capitulate to our demands/requirements to end the war? If we execute war the way it should be executed, there is no need for ground troops.

You seem to be advocating the strategy that ended WWII. "Just drop a nuke on the country and call it good". The problem with that strategy is that America is not the only country with a nuke (like we were then). If we attempted to win a war with strictly airpower I think other countries would join to defend the country we were bombing. It kind of depends what type of war you are fighting and why though. Take for example the First Gulf War. We bombed strategic targets and then sent in ground forces to clean up. That strategy worked well because the goal of the war wash accomplished. Once Saddam's troops retreated the war effectively ended. For a war that is against a nation and has a set purpose your strategy works well. It does not work well for the types of wars we wanted in Iraq or Afghanistan though. It also did not work for the situation in Somalia. We could not have simply bombed that entire country and called it good. The same even goes for Syria right now. Should we just drop a bomb and say game over?

JD2780
03-19-2013, 04:50 PM
Tell me why it won't work. You're stuck in the current fight of limited engagement and limiting collateral damage. I'm talking war with a nation. Why do we need to put boots on the ground to take ground if we only need them to capitulate to our demands/requirements to end the war? If we execute war the way it should be executed, there is no need for ground troops.

Desert storm. We had requirements/demands and it still took ground troops because of the LOAC. You need ground troops. Yes, we had one heck of an air campaign, but Saddam still didnt budge until the ground war kicked off.

Sure if you want to just simply destroy and entire group in the middle of an uninhabited desert then go for it. Good luck finding targets in heavy jungle without ground troops AND aircraft.

I guess you're right though, if you want to throw LOAC completely out the window you can win war with only aircraft.

JD2780
03-19-2013, 04:52 PM
You seem to be advocating the strategy that ended WWII. "Just drop a nuke on the country and call it good". The problem with that strategy is that America is not the only country with a nuke (like we were then). If we attempted to win a war with strictly airpower I think other countries would join to defend the country we were bombing. It kind of depends what type of war you are fighting and why though. Take for example the First Gulf War. We bombed strategic targets and then sent in ground forces to clean up. That strategy worked well because the goal of the war wash accomplished. Once Saddam's troops retreated the war effectively ended. For a war that is against a nation and has a set purpose your strategy works well. It does not work well for the types of wars we wanted in Iraq or Afghanistan though. It also did not work for the situation in Somalia. We could not have simply bombed that entire country and called it good. The same even goes for Syria right now. Should we just drop a bomb and say game over?

Good example. WWII, you couldnt simply push the Nazis out of France, Poland or anything other place with JUST aircraft. If we could have, we would have.

SomeRandomGuy
03-19-2013, 04:59 PM
Good example. WWII, you couldnt simply push the Nazis out of France, Poland or anything other place with JUST aircraft. If we could have, we would have.

One more thing to justify dropping nuclear bombs on Japan. In the two largest battles preceding the drops Japan took between a 97%-99% casualty rate. Their strategy was simply not to quit. They never would have surrendered any other way. Even though we killed a lot of civilians by dropping the bombs it was quite simply the only way to win the war. Even with that being said we still caught a lot of flack from some allies for that strategy. There is no way we could ever pull that strategy off in today's enviroment though.

akruse
03-19-2013, 05:00 PM
I'm not talking history folks. I'm talking the way war (future wars) should be fought. We haven't fought a "war" since Desert Storm. Look what our policy of ground troops and limited engagement has earned us from Vietnam to current day. We have been fighting an enemy armed with AK's, PKM's, fertilizer, and RPGs for over 10 years now with ABSOLUTELY nothing to show for it except for body bags and treasure lost. If we are going to engage in hostilities with another country or nation state in the future, we will gain nothing by putting large amounts of infantry on the ground. LOAC doesn't go out the window. You simply destroy their govts means to govern and employ their military. Things have changed since WW2 JD2780.

JD2780
03-19-2013, 05:08 PM
I'm not talking history folks. I'm talking the way war (future wars) should be fought. We haven't fought a "war" since Desert Storm. Look what our policy of ground troops and limited engagement has earned us from Vietnam to current day. We have been fighting an enemy armed with AK's, PKM's, fertilizer, and RPGs for over 10 years now with ABSOLUTELY nothing to show for it except for body bags and treasure lost. If we are going to engage in hostilities with another country or nation state in the future, we will gain nothing by putting large amounts of infantry on the ground. LOAC doesn't go out the window. You simply destroy their govts means to govern and employ their military. Things have changed since WW2 JD2780.

Yes I know things have changed since WWII like the GBU-12/38/31 20mm. Great tools of the trade. LOAC does go out the window. With your thought process. Because there is no way to ensure you're hitting We wouldnt have found Saddam without ground troops. Its a fact, we could've bombed that place all day and all night for years but wouldnt have found him without ground troops. Even future wars cant be won without ground troops being there. Utilizing only a/c to fight a war is a recipe for disaster. There arent enough a/c in our inventory to truly accomplish that. While your a/c are pounding targets, you'll have divisions and brigades making there way towards your bases, with those divisions come manpads and self propelled sams. Yes we have ways to deal with sams, but the enemy, assuming its peer warfare, has ways of defeating SEAD packages to a point.

akruse
03-19-2013, 06:42 PM
Yes I know things have changed since WWII like the GBU-12/38/31 20mm. Great tools of the trade. LOAC does go out the window. With your thought process. Because there is no way to ensure you're hitting We wouldnt have found Saddam without ground troops. Its a fact, we could've bombed that place all day and all night for years but wouldnt have found him without ground troops. Even future wars cant be won without ground troops being there. Utilizing only a/c to fight a war is a recipe for disaster. There arent enough a/c in our inventory to truly accomplish that. While your a/c are pounding targets, you'll have divisions and brigades making there way towards your bases, with those divisions come manpads and self propelled sams. Yes we have ways to deal with sams, but the enemy, assuming its peer warfare, has ways of defeating SEAD packages to a point.

Sure they can, in your fantasy land. Name a country that can project its forces like a situation you describe.

JD2780
03-19-2013, 07:00 PM
Sure they can, in your fantasy land. Name a country that can project its forces like a situation you describe.

Not really a fantasy land, more along the lines off my training and knowledge. Heck, during desert storm we had an F-16 brought down by SA-6s. The 16s werent in support of ANY ground troops. The c/s was Stroke, one my former collegues was a member of the flight. Once again, not a fantasay, but actuality.

As for a country that could project its forces like that. Probably China. Any country that practices centralized control with decentralized execution. We arent the only ones with great technology.

Heck a guy in cave baffled and dodged us for yrs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uh4yMAx2UA

may not have been a SEAD package, our guys were just pumping oil fields, you know trying to get Saddamn to bend to our will. Well, you see how that turned out in this video. All those smoke trails, and bright streaks are SA-6s. Yea, and that was against Iraqis.

akruse
03-19-2013, 08:13 PM
Not really a fantasy land, more along the lines off my training and knowledge. Heck, during desert storm we had an F-16 brought down by SA-6s. The 16s werent in support of ANY ground troops. The c/s was Stroke, one my former collegues was a member of the flight. Once again, not a fantasay, but actuality.

As for a country that could project its forces like that. Probably China. Any country that practices centralized control with decentralized execution. We arent the only ones with great technology.

Heck a guy in cave baffled and dodged us for yrs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uh4yMAx2UA

may not have been a SEAD package, our guys were just pumping oil fields, you know trying to get Saddamn to bend to our will. Well, you see how that turned out in this video. All those smoke trails, and bright streaks are SA-6s. Yea, and that was against Iraqis.

Copy, you're the only one with training and knowledge. What would ground troops do for the IADS system? Nobody is saying that there won't be losses. It's war. It happens. I'll withdraw and cede the battle to you and your experiences.

Capt Alfredo
03-20-2013, 01:55 AM
Are you fucking with me? Pointless? Pointless? Is it pointless, to destroy the enemy with cas IOT ensure the survival of friendly troops? How do you win a war without supporting ground troops? Its been going on since WWI. You cant win with a/c alone, you cannot with with ground troops alone. Get out of the neverland fairytale that you believe only aircraft can win wars. Seriously, pull your head out of your old ass.

Pretty sure Bob is saying that the ground support mission is one that shouldn't align to the Air Force. No one's saying it isn't important, only that it's not (or shouldn't be) the focus of the Air Force. Bob will correct me if I'm misinterpreting his point.

Quixotic
03-20-2013, 02:09 AM
You can have all the airpower in the world over a piece of ground, but until you have a soldier standing on it, with a flag in one hand and a rifle in the other, you don't own it, and you certainly haven't won it.

But don't get me wrong, airpower is awesome, and a big part of the equation.

BRUWIN
03-20-2013, 04:32 AM
You can have all the airpower in the world over a piece of ground, but until you have a soldier standing on it, with a flag in one hand and a rifle in the other, you don't own it, and you certainly haven't won it.

But don't get me wrong, airpower is awesome, and a big part of the equation.

Allied Force was essentially a war fought with airpower alone and we won. The Army's only contribution to the effort was three Army chuckleheads accidently crossing the Serbian border and becoming POWs and getting POW medals.

Quixotic
03-20-2013, 05:03 AM
Allied Force was essentially a war fought with airpower alone and we won. The Army's only contribution to the effort was three Army chuckleheads accidently crossing the Serbian border and becoming POWs and getting POW medals.

Yes, the disciples of airpower are quick to forget the existence of the KLA, or the inconvenient fact that Milosevik surrendered the same day Russia stopped backing him, called for him to surrender, and then backed the West, or the fact that a ground invasion was starting to take shape.

But first we would have to talk about what is a 'war' and what isn't.

JD2780
03-20-2013, 11:06 AM
Copy, you're the only one with training and knowledge. What would ground troops do for the IADS system? Nobody is saying that there won't be losses. It's war. It happens. I'll withdraw and cede the battle to you and your experiences.

Not saying I'm the only. I was explaining where my opinion is coming from. Simple as that. For all I know you could be wrench, cop, intel. I dont know. So what is your experience?

JD2780
03-20-2013, 11:07 AM
Pretty sure Bob is saying that the ground support mission is one that shouldn't align to the Air Force. No one's saying it isn't important, only that it's not (or shouldn't be) the focus of the Air Force. Bob will correct me if I'm misinterpreting his point.

Then have the Army get fixed wing assets capable to shooting 30mm DU, carry CDU, and heavies. Also, provide airlift for airborn operations.

Capt Alfredo
03-20-2013, 11:43 PM
Then have the Army get fixed wing assets capable to shooting 30mm DU, carry CDU, and heavies. Also, provide airlift for airborn operations.

Pretty sure I wouldn't be complaining if we handed the keys to the MC-12, A-10, AC-130, etc. over to the Army. Good luck with that!

JD2780
03-21-2013, 01:13 AM
Pretty sure I wouldn't be complaining if we handed the keys to the MC-12, A-10, AC-130, etc. over to the Army. Good luck with that!

Nope, Need F-15Es, C-130, C-17 as well.

sandsjames
03-21-2013, 03:13 PM
Why don't we just keep all of our forces in the U.S? Then, we only need to worry about ground troops if we get invaded. Long range bombers and missiles can destroy tactical targets. The Air Force can easily impose a "no-fly zone" on our borders (assuming any other country could reach our borders with their aircraft).

The reason we currently need so many ground troops is because we always feel the need to occupy whichever country we determine needs a regime change.

That leaves us with special forces who do what they do, bombers and naval vessels for launching at tactical targets, and reserve forces (as intended) to be used as ground troops if we are invaded. The cost savings and American lives saved would be immense.

JD2780
03-21-2013, 06:03 PM
Why don't we just keep all of our forces in the U.S? Then, we only need to worry about ground troops if we get invaded. Long range bombers and missiles can destroy tactical targets. The Air Force can easily impose a "no-fly zone" on our borders (assuming any other country could reach our borders with their aircraft).

The reason we currently need so many ground troops is because we always feel the need to occupy whichever country we determine needs a regime change.

That leaves us with special forces who do what they do, bombers and naval vessels for launching at tactical targets, and reserve forces (as intended) to be used as ground troops if we are invaded. The cost savings and American lives saved would be immense.

Special Forces are essentially trainers and intel gatherers. Rangers do the the DA. All this is doctrine speaking. We all know that has been thrown out the window.

Chief_KO
03-23-2013, 03:12 PM
When the Class VI became part of AAFES, congressional laws made AAFES gas prices match local competition, Top III & Chief Lounges were no longer separate bars in the NCO club, the club became the last place to go for fun, commanders calls and other official functions stopped having a "beverage break" prior to the unofficial portion, post exercise or inspection activities no longer included kegs of beer, nose art was removed from aircraft, the entire shop breaks early on a Friday to hit happy hour, volleyball or basketball was played at the workcenter during downtime, living in base housing was no longer desired, the MAC T or bowling alley was no longer the best greasy spoon on base, the annual weigh in and 1.5 mile run concluded with a pancake breakfast followed by bbq & beer, going-away and PME doo-dads were a simple certificate, small plaque or framed photo, everyone came out to either play or watch (have a beverage) intramural sports. This is a partial list...but it truly becomes "just a job" when you let it. In 1982 Airmen were accused of having that attitude, same could probably be said about every generation...

Chief_KO
03-23-2013, 06:02 PM
A couple more: When every event or activity requires a SSS, BBB, read a heads, script/program approval, JAG concurrence, and and O-6's approval. Oh and of course...no conflict with AAFES activities.

Robert F. Dorr
03-23-2013, 06:14 PM
Why don't we just keep all of our forces in the U.S? Then, we only need to worry about ground troops if we get invaded. Long range bombers and missiles can destroy tactical targets. The Air Force can easily impose a "no-fly zone" on our borders (assuming any other country could reach our borders with their aircraft).

The reason we currently need so many ground troops is because we always feel the need to occupy whichever country we determine needs a regime change.

That leaves us with special forces who do what they do, bombers and naval vessels for launching at tactical targets, and reserve forces (as intended) to be used as ground troops if we are invaded. The cost savings and American lives saved would be immense.

You probably meant special operations forces. Works for me.