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Robert F. Dorr
03-13-2013, 11:24 AM
If you're a writer and you talk to people at Kunsan, they'll tell you that because it's a remote tour they're focused on the mission and this brings them closer together. Because you don't have your family with you, they'll say, your colleagues become your family. The result is enhanced combat capability and a great deal of camaraderie and harmony.

True?

What are your thoughts?

CrustySMSgt
03-13-2013, 11:50 AM
I think that is true of overseas assignments in general. Having to rely on the base populace, either due to being uncomfortable jumping in to the local culture, or because you just like your "little America" inside the wire, people tend to be more cohesive at overseas assignments. In the States, at the end of the day and over the weekend, people scatter and don't associate with their work folk. Overseas you do more things together, like social events at the club, social groups, and hanging out in housing.

While I haven't been to the Kun, I'd equate it to being deployed. All you've got is your folks at work (or the juicy girls) to hang out with, so you do get closer and get to know them better.

71Fish
03-13-2013, 11:53 AM
If you're a writer and you talk to people at Kunsan, they'll tell you that because it's a remote tour they're focused on the mission and this brings them closer together. Because you don't have your family with you, they'll say, your colleagues become your family. The result is enhanced combat capability and a great deal of camaraderie and harmony.

True?



What are your thoughts?

That is what Sr leaders say because it is what they see. But at the lower levels it is less true. Not completely untrue, but less so. The closeness and remoteness there creates cliches' and outcasts. Not an environment for harmony.

JD2780
03-13-2013, 12:01 PM
If you're a writer and you talk to people at Kunsan, they'll tell you that because it's a remote tour they're focused on the mission and this brings them closer together. Because you don't have your family with you, they'll say, your colleagues become your family. The result is enhanced combat capability and a great deal of camaraderie and harmony.

True?

What are your thoughts?

It certainly doesnt increase combat capability but it does make the remote more tolerable by have close knit group. I think at times it can lessen the combat capability because most people are working hung over!!!

BRUWIN
03-13-2013, 12:18 PM
Kunsan is a walk in the park compared to Osan. Osan is where the real warfighting is planned and accomplished. When we played war it was for real. I would often travel to Kunsan to drink and pick fights with those in the Wolfpack...never any takers. Big wussies.

CJSmith
03-13-2013, 12:22 PM
Can't speak for Korea, only been TDY there - not stationed there. But I have been to Yokota, Kadena and Ramstein. Both Japan bases were solid. We hung out with each other all the time. We did trips together, scuba'd together, ski trips together, etc. I loved it. Ramstein - not so much. People here are on their own time. After work, there is no hanging out. Or maybe I just don't have any friends here :(

BRUWIN
03-13-2013, 12:33 PM
Can't speak for Korea, only been TDY there - not stationed there. But I have been to Yokota, Kadena and Ramstein. Both Japan bases were solid. We hung out with each other all the time. We did trips together, scuba'd together, ski trips together, etc. I loved it. Ramstein - not so much. People here are on their own time. After work, there is no hanging out. Or maybe I just don't have any friends here :(

Ramstein is just so big that it is hard to form close bond with co-workers. Couple that with the KMC being essentially the 51st state it isn't like other overseas locations. If one never leaves the KMC area they'd never know they were in Germany.

Robert F. Dorr
03-13-2013, 01:32 PM
That is what Sr leaders say because it is what they see. But at the lower levels it is less true. Not completely untrue, but less so. The closeness and remoteness there creates cliches' and outcasts. Not an environment for harmony.

This is what I'm trying to get a sense for. If anyone has more thoughts in this direction, please share them.

Bruwin, what's a KMC?

bluecyclone1
03-13-2013, 02:04 PM
This is what I'm trying to get a sense for. If anyone has more thoughts in this direction, please share them.

Bruwin, what's a KMC?

KMC is the Kaiserslautern military community. K-Town has about 5 military bases in it. It's the German version of San Antonio.

When I was in Korea Kunsan was one step above CRC and Camp Casey for AF members. You never really heard anything good about the place other than it was further south than the rest of the places. Personally, I had quite a bit of fun at CRC. We found ways to make do and enjoy ourselves and somewhat forget the fact that we were in a hole.

bluecyclone1
03-13-2013, 02:15 PM
It certainly doesnt increase combat capability but it does make the remote more tolerable by have close knit group. I think at times it can lessen the combat capability because most people are working hung over!!!

The post softball tourneys and Mayfest at CRC never spawned any hungover workdays......LOL

BRUWIN
03-13-2013, 02:15 PM
This is what I'm trying to get a sense for. If anyone has more thoughts in this direction, please share them.

Bruwin, what's a KMC?

Kaiserslaughtern Military Community. It is the area that completely surrounds Ramstein. You have Landstuhl, Vogelway, Kapaun, Sembach Annex, and several other American military installations. 50,000 to 60,000 Americans live is this roughly 30 mile area alone.

If anybody from Kunsan wants their ass kicked just let me know.

Robert F. Dorr
03-13-2013, 03:13 PM
KMC is the Kaiserslautern military community. K-Town has about 5 military bases in it. It's the German version of San Antonio.

When I was in Korea Kunsan was one step above CRC and Camp Casey for AF members. You never really heard anything good about the place other than it was further south than the rest of the places. Personally, I had quite a bit of fun at CRC. We found ways to make do and enjoy ourselves and somewhat forget the fact that we were in a hole.

It looks like we could make some reductions in Germany.

bluecyclone1, what's a CRC? Camp Red Cloud?

JD2780
03-13-2013, 03:18 PM
It looks like we could make some reductions in Germany.

bluecyclone1, what's a CRC? Camp Red Cloud?

Those are Army posts. A good places to find wayard TACPs.

bluecyclone1
03-13-2013, 03:23 PM
It looks like we could make some reductions in Germany.

bluecyclone1, what's a CRC? Camp Red Cloud?

Yes. As JD said, good place to find wayward TACPs and disgruntled radio troops.

Robert F. Dorr
03-13-2013, 03:39 PM
Yes, I've visited all of those places and wrote about the man for whom Camp Red Cloud was named:

http://www.armytimes.com/legacy/new/0-ARMYPAPER-2773630.php

I feel pretty certain I know what you intend with TACP so I won't ask about that one.

71Fish
03-13-2013, 05:19 PM
It looks like we could make some reductions in Germany.



Not as long as the Soviets still have the ability to drive tanks across the Fulda Gap.

JD2780
03-13-2013, 06:51 PM
Yes, I've visited all of those places and wrote about the man for whom Camp Red Cloud was named:

http://www.armytimes.com/legacy/new/0-ARMYPAPER-2773630.php

I feel pretty certain I know what you intend with TACP so I won't ask about that one.

I'll just add to it. They arent necessarily wayward when they get there, but they sure are when they leave. However, they control air every week. Plus its a good place for recently divorced TACPs/Radio folks.

JD2780
03-13-2013, 06:51 PM
Yes. As JD said, good place to find wayward TACPs and disgruntled radio troops.

BC- which one were you at?

bluecyclone1
03-13-2013, 07:30 PM
BC- which one were you at?

Red Cloud, ca. 1999

bluecyclone1
03-13-2013, 07:34 PM
I'll just add to it. They arent necessarily wayward when they get there, but they sure are when they leave. However, they control air every week. Plus its a good place for recently divorced TACPs/Radio folks.

Or soon to be divorced VM troops. Oh Lordy did that poor soul step into a bear trap laced with saliva from a rabid badger. But that's another story for another day.

KellyinAvon
03-13-2013, 09:15 PM
Kaiserslaughtern Military Community. It is the area that completely surrounds Ramstein. You have Landstuhl, Vogelway, Kapaun, Sembach Annex, and several other American military installations. 50,000 to 60,000 Americans live is this roughly 30 mile area alone.

If anybody from Kunsan wants their ass kicked just let me know.

You Osan guys talkin trash, I swear. At K-2 AB (that's Taegu, Bob and others) our motto was "we drink more beer by 9 AM than Osan does in a week!" I'd go to Osan (sometimes turn and burn, sometimes stay the night) and after 30 minutes I'd be ready to get back in the truck and drive back to K-2 because everyone I'd dealt with had pissed me the hell off.

K-2 RULZ the ROK!!

JD2780
03-13-2013, 09:23 PM
There was a decent crew there around that time. Most of them were going back and forth between there and Ft Bragg during that time.

JD2780
03-13-2013, 09:24 PM
You Osan guys talkin trash, I swear. At K-2 AB (that's Taegu, Bob and others) our motto was "we drink more beer by 9 AM than Osan does in a week!" I'd go to Osan (sometimes turn and burn, sometimes stay the night) and after 30 minutes I'd be ready to get back in the truck and drive back to K-2 because everyone I'd dealt with had pissed me the hell off.

K-2 RULZ the ROK!!

CRC and RC piss on K-2!!!

BRUWIN
03-13-2013, 09:26 PM
You Osan guys talkin trash, I swear. At K-2 AB (that's Taegu, Bob and others) our motto was "we drink more beer by 9 AM than Osan does in a week!" I'd go to Osan (sometimes turn and burn, sometimes stay the night) and after 30 minutes I'd be ready to get back in the truck and drive back to K-2 because everyone I'd dealt with had pissed me the hell off.

K-2 RULZ the ROK!!

Yeah, you guys get all brave on-line. I will kick your and all your Kunsan buddies little asses. We were alot closer to the DMZ than Kunsan...who were in the rear with the gear.

grimreaper
03-13-2013, 09:34 PM
Yeah, you guys get all brave on-line. I will kick your and all your Kunsan buddies little asses. We were alot closer to the DMZ than Kunsan...who were in the rear with the gear.

Unfortunately, Osan is a shell of its former self. The place has turned into dependentville. Nothing like it used to be.

bluecyclone1
03-13-2013, 09:47 PM
Yeah, you guys get all brave on-line. I will kick your and all your Kunsan buddies little asses. We were alot closer to the DMZ than Kunsan...who were in the rear with the gear.

CRC and Casey are so far north we could hear Kim Jong Il's farts. People from Osan wet themselves when they found out where we were at......LOL

Robert F. Dorr
03-13-2013, 10:24 PM
You Osan guys talkin trash, I swear. At K-2 AB (that's Taegu, Bob and others) our motto was "we drink more beer by 9 AM than Osan does in a week!" I'd go to Osan (sometimes turn and burn, sometimes stay the night) and after 30 minutes I'd be ready to get back in the truck and drive back to K-2 because everyone I'd dealt with had pissed me the hell off.

K-2 RULZ the ROK!!

I gotta laugh at the idea you gotta tell me where Taegu is. If you have any questions about the "K" numbers, you might look for my Korean War book which is, alas, out of print. The "K" numbers were no longer in general use when I arrived at Osan in 1958 and everything about the base and the vil outside the gate was different then. It was the Wild West.

KellyinAvon
03-13-2013, 10:31 PM
CRC and RC piss on K-2!!!

Those guys can't even spell K-2, let alone find it.

sandsjames
03-13-2013, 10:35 PM
I gotta laugh at the idea you gotta tell me where Taegu is. Really? Really? REALLY??!! As often as you question almost EVERYTHING that remotely resembles an acronym or abbreviation, you are really going to say "I gotta laugh at the idea..."? Are you serious with this? So are we at a point now where we are supposed to know the acronyms/abbrevations you will know? Or can we assume you know them all and quit spelling things out for you?

Are you serious with this post???

KellyinAvon
03-13-2013, 10:47 PM
Yeah, you guys get all brave on-line. I will kick your and all your Kunsan buddies little asses. We were alot closer to the DMZ than Kunsan...who were in the rear with the gear.

I'll give you that, all the WRM (War Reserve Material, Bob) we had at the Gu was to support a big regroup and taking back Osan. Emphasis on "taking back".

Robert F. Dorr
03-13-2013, 11:05 PM
Really? Really? REALLY??!! As often as you question almost EVERYTHING that remotely resembles an acronym or abbreviation, you are really going to say "I gotta laugh at the idea..."? Are you serious with this? So are we at a point now where we are supposed to know the acronyms/abbrevations you will know? Or can we assume you know them all and quit spelling things out for you?

Are you serious with this post???

I see your point.

Rizzo77
03-13-2013, 11:10 PM
Kunsan is a walk in the park compared to Osan. Osan is where the real warfighting is planned and accomplished. When we played war it was for real. I would often travel to Kunsan to drink and pick fights with those in the Wolfpack...never any takers. Big wussies.

You haven't been packed until you've been Wolfpacked. Not my sentiment, but that of a shirt available in Songtan.

Robert F. Dorr
03-13-2013, 11:11 PM
I'll give you that, all the WRM (War Reserve Material, Bob) we had at the Gu was to support a big regroup and taking back Osan. Emphasis on "taking back".

It's no secret that the North Koreans have special operations forces whose job is to disrupt airfields. Our side has been trying for decades to defend against Antonov An-2s carrying airborne special operations troops at night. That An-2 may be old and ugly but it's very stealthy and very difficult to guard against. This morning, speaking with me on the record for quotation, Wolf made reference to submarines and air cushion vehicles having a similar mission. So "taking back" in reference to Osan is entirely too credible.

KellyinAvon
03-13-2013, 11:32 PM
You haven't been packed until you've been Wolfpacked. Not my sentiment, but that of a shirt available in Songtan.

They still sell those? Not surprising, people still buy them. I do wonder if they ever sold that red Lakers jersey I saw 20 years ago.

Rizzo77
03-13-2013, 11:36 PM
I'm an Army dude, and my first assignment was at Camp Casey (1987). I am forever grateful that I served in the Indianhead Division, as it enlightened me to just how distinctly shitty Army service could really be. The sad thing is that during 24 years of service, the unit at Fort Ord, California sucked so hard that it made service on the DMZ desirable.

The only thing I didn't envy about Osan was all those stupid chemical suit exercises (our boy was a student at Osan Elementary and Osan Junior High; those miserable CREs screwed up everything when we went to Osan).

Rizzo77
03-13-2013, 11:38 PM
They still sell those? Not surprising, people still buy them. I do wonder if they ever sold that red Lakers jersey I saw 20 years ago.

I'm not aware, as I was last there in 2004. I'd wager (and I'm not a betting man) that those shirts are still on sale.

BRUWIN
03-14-2013, 12:21 AM
CRC and Casey are so far north we could hear Kim Jong Il's farts. People from Osan wet themselves when they found out where we were at......LOL

I used to go up there in an effort to try to kick some ass as well since Kunsan weenies wouldn't pony up...again no takers.

JD2780
03-14-2013, 01:23 AM
I used to go up there in an effort to try to kick some ass as well since Kunsan weenies wouldn't pony up...again no takers.

No takers because they pity you. A person that doesnt know his position in life.

BRUWIN
03-14-2013, 02:50 AM
No takers because they pity you. A person that doesnt know his position in life.

I'm in AFSOC...we go over to Eglin regularly to kick some big blue ass when we are bored. Let me know if you need yours kicked and I'll drive on over.

eman_osan
03-14-2013, 06:46 AM
I sucked more rubber at the Kun in 83-84 & 88 -89 than I did the whole time at Osan (89 - 92). We also worked hard and played hard. Kunsan used to be the best assignment in Korea because there were very few, if any families and everyone knew each other and we took care of our own. Sadly, that is no longer the case, but that's the way things are now ipretty much air force wide. Osan has changed, but if you know what you're doing it still rocks.


I'm an Army dude, and my first assignment was at Camp Casey (1987). I am forever grateful that I served in the Indianhead Division, as it enlightened me to just how distinctly shitty Army service could really be. The sad thing is that during 24 years of service, the unit at Fort Ord, California sucked so hard that it made service on the DMZ desirable.

The only thing I didn't envy about Osan was all those stupid chemical suit exercises (our boy was a student at Osan Elementary and Osan Junior High; those miserable CREs screwed up everything when we went to Osan).

JD2780
03-14-2013, 10:51 AM
I'm in AFSOC...we go over to Eglin regularly to kick some big blue ass when we are bored. Let me know if you need yours kicked and I'll drive on over.

You're a "civilian airman"in AFSOC. I'm just a civilian. You cant attack me unless the president authorizes it. Sheesh, now the rest of the nerd herd on eglin is fair game.

Brewhound
03-14-2013, 11:32 AM
I have been to all three places. RC, Osan and the Kun...By far Kunsan was the worst. They always have the biggest A-hole wing CC and senior leaders. It also is the most isolated out of the three. Was the longest and hardest year that I ever spent anywhere and that includes the sandbox.

JD2780
03-14-2013, 12:38 PM
I have been to all three places. RC, Osan and the Kun...By far Kunsan was the worst. They always have the biggest A-hole wing CC and senior leaders. It also is the most isolated out of the three. Was the longest and hardest year that I ever spent anywhere and that includes the sandbox.


Many TACPs try to go back so they wont have to deploy. Take Korea as a break. You get a bed to sleep on, 3 hot meals. Better than living on a cot or sleeping on rocks. I can see Kunsan having DB commanders.

bluecyclone1
03-14-2013, 01:40 PM
I'm an Army dude, and my first assignment was at Camp Casey (1987). I am forever grateful that I served in the Indianhead Division, as it enlightened me to just how distinctly shitty Army service could really be. The sad thing is that during 24 years of service, the unit at Fort Ord, California sucked so hard that it made service on the DMZ desirable.

The only thing I didn't envy about Osan was all those stupid chemical suit exercises (our boy was a student at Osan Elementary and Osan Junior High; those miserable CREs screwed up everything when we went to Osan).

You must have had to cut ice plant......LOL

bluecyclone1
03-14-2013, 01:42 PM
I used to go up there in an effort to try to kick some ass as well since Kunsan weenies wouldn't pony up...again no takers.

They probably passed out from laughing so hard at you when they found out where you were from......LOL

JD2780
03-14-2013, 01:44 PM
They probably passed out from laughing so hard at you when they found out where you were from......LOL

Or were just passed out from being hammered and fighting each other.

Robert F. Dorr
03-14-2013, 02:01 PM
I have been to all three places. RC, Osan and the Kun...By far Kunsan was the worst. They always have the biggest A-hole wing CC and senior leaders. It also is the most isolated out of the three. Was the longest and hardest year that I ever spent anywhere and that includes the sandbox.

No doubt every one of those commanders told anyone who asked that it was one happy, harmonious family firmly focused on the mission.

bluecyclone1
03-14-2013, 02:35 PM
Or were just passed out from being hammered and fighting each other.

Definitely would not have been the first time that happened......LOL!!

JD2780
03-14-2013, 04:55 PM
Nope, I specifically remember a pool ball fight ensuing. It was visious, and thank goodness everybody was hammered and couldnt hit each other.

Capt Alfredo
03-14-2013, 11:26 PM
You must have had to cut ice plant......LOL

If the Ice Plant were along the golf courses, at least he probably would have found some nice golf balls.

Robert F. Dorr
03-14-2013, 11:53 PM
If the Ice Plant were along the golf courses, at least he probably would have found some nice golf balls.

Ah, ice plant. If you're talking about the kind that's green (not a facility that manufactures frozen water), you're bringing back memories of duty at the Presidio of Monterey in a past era: language study five days a week followed by Saturday work details trimming the ice plant around the commander's residence and other facilities. If that's the kind you're referring to, "ice plant" was a bad word in that place at that time.

Robert F. Dorr
03-14-2013, 11:55 PM
Just did another phone interview with an Air Force officer at Kunsan. The image conveyed was one of strong unit cohesion, high morale and focus on the mission.

sandsjames
03-15-2013, 12:04 AM
Just did another phone interview with an Air Force officer at Kunsan. The image conveyed was one of strong unit cohesion, high morale and focus on the mission.

Why would you talk with an officer? If you want the real answer, speak with a SSgt or below. They will give you a non scripted answer.

I've never spoken with an officer who didn't think the morale and unit cohesion was excellent. I can't imagine how canned the answer would be if he thought it my be published.

KellyinAvon
03-15-2013, 12:11 AM
Just did another phone interview with an Air Force officer at Kunsan. The image conveyed was one of strong unit cohesion, high morale and focus on the mission.

Was that officer's offoce symbol 8FW/PA?? (that's 8th Fighter Wing Public Affairs, Bob)

Capt Alfredo
03-15-2013, 02:02 AM
Ah, ice plant. If you're talking about the kind that's green (not a facility that manufactures frozen water), you're bringing back memories of duty at the Presidio of Monterey in a past era: language study five days a week followed by Saturday work details trimming the ice plant around the commander's residence and other facilities. If that's the kind you're referring to, "ice plant" was a bad word in that place at that time.

Yes, the ice plant of the sort found on the Monterey Peninsula. A nice place to live, as I'm sure Otis can attest.

Robert F. Dorr
03-15-2013, 02:18 AM
Was that officer's offoce symbol 8FW/PA?? (that's 8th Fighter Wing Public Affairs, Bob)

The most recent example (a couple of hours ago) was 4th EFS/CC.

Robert F. Dorr
03-15-2013, 02:20 AM
Why would you talk with an officer? If you want the real answer, speak with a SSgt or below. They will give you a non scripted answer.

I've never spoken with an officer who didn't think the morale and unit cohesion was excellent. I can't imagine how canned the answer would be if he thought it my be published.

You have no idea how difficult it is to get an interview with a staff sergeant or below. The higher the rank, the easier it is to get access. I do talk with people of all ranks but a lot of the conversations are straight talk between friends, off the record, not for publication and not to be characterized here. When I'm interviewing anyone on the record for publication, that person has to get help from PA (that's public affairs, KellyinAvon) and it usually ends up being the highest-ranking person they can find.

KellyinAvon
03-15-2013, 09:36 AM
I'm in AFSOC...we go over to Bob Hope Village regularly to kick some big blue ass when we are bored. Let me know if you need yours kicked and I'll drive on over.

Fixed that for you Bru. Bob Hope Village is actually in Shalimar, not Eglin AFB.

KellyinAvon
03-15-2013, 09:40 AM
The most recent example (a couple of hours ago) was 4th EFS/CC.
EFS is Expeditionary Fighter Squadron, Bob. You were talking to a deployed Sq/CC, not one assigned to the 8FW.

KellyinAvon
03-15-2013, 09:41 AM
You have no idea how difficult it is to get an interview with a staff sergeant or below. The higher the rank, the easier it is to get access. I do talk with people of all ranks but a lot of the conversations are straight talk between friends, off the record, not for publication and not to be characterized here. When I'm interviewing anyone on the record for publication, that person has to get help from PA (that's public affairs, KellyinAvon) and it usually ends up being the highest-ranking person they can find.
Thanks Bob, I knew that. I told you that in post #54.

Robert F. Dorr
03-15-2013, 11:43 AM
EFS is Expeditionary Fighter Squadron, Bob. You were talking to a deployed Sq/CC, not one assigned to the 8FW.

They are using the EFS terminology. Squadron is spending eight months with the 8th FW.

I understood your original post on this point to suggest that I'm talking only to flacks and not to people who do real work. If that was your purpose, see post no. 57.

If it wasn't, what was your purpose?

Robert F. Dorr
03-15-2013, 11:45 AM
Thanks Bob, I knew that. I told you that in post #54.

Just trying to be helpful. Neither you nor sandsjames seem to understand yet, after constant repetition, that the problem isn't knowing Air Force terminology. The problem is understanding the writer's intent.

JD2780
03-15-2013, 12:02 PM
You have no idea how difficult it is to get an interview with a staff sergeant or below. The higher the rank, the easier it is to get access. I do talk with people of all ranks but a lot of the conversations are straight talk between friends, off the record, not for publication and not to be characterized here. When I'm interviewing anyone on the record for publication, that person has to get help from PA (that's public affairs, KellyinAvon) and it usually ends up being the highest-ranking person they can find.

Of course its harder to get interviews with those folks. They're busy busting their asses, plus those folks will give straight answers. Not canned political answers. The higher the rank the easier the access is due to their desire to look important and get promoted. You want straight answers ask for an interview with an E-5 or below. If they wont grant it there is a reason for it, and its not mission oriented. Its draping the curtain over the issues.

TVANSCOT
03-15-2013, 12:31 PM
blah blah blah.... nothing will ever happen in Korea! Its all talk! Not like when I was stationed at Torrejon in '86 and Spain was voting whether to stay as part of Nato, those were rough times! Then we had those wussies up at Zaragoza AB, they couldn't drink more than one or two sangria's without throwing up at the outdoor bowling alley in Madrid.

Korean base wusses!

:tongue:

Robert F. Dorr
03-15-2013, 01:15 PM
Of course its harder to get interviews with those folks. They're busy busting their asses, plus those folks will give straight answers. Not canned political answers. The higher the rank the easier the access is due to their desire to look important and get promoted. You want straight answers ask for an interview with an E-5 or below. If they wont grant it there is a reason for it, and its not mission oriented. Its draping the curtain over the issues.

As an outsider looking in and writing about the Air Force, I can do it two ways:

1. I can get cooperation from public affairs to arrange an interview on the record. Any E-3 or E-4 placed into that situation (and with a public affairs person present) is going to be very uncomfortable and is not going to provide the straight answer to which you refer. I can learn a lot from doing this, and I do, but I don't get the straight talk you refer to.

2. I can talk to people privately, relying on the hundreds of people in the Air Force who know I'm not going to burn them, and have conversations that aren't official and aren't on the record. Even then, I'm still an outsider and the Heisenberg Principle applies.

An outsider can't just sit down and get straight talk from an E-4 who's busy busting his ass. It doesn't work that way. It doesn't help for you to imply that an O-4 or an O-5 doesn't work hard. Most of them don't have much experience talking to an outsider, either, and while they naturally exercise caution they don't necessarily have canned political answers.

sandsjames
03-15-2013, 01:25 PM
You have no idea how difficult it is to get an interview with a staff sergeant or below. The higher the rank, the easier it is to get access. The reason for this is that officers are much more likely to spew forth the company answer. If you value ease of access over accurate answers then you are on the right track.

The responses you receive would be way more accurate if they were off the record. I'm sure you know this.

Obviously for interviews about technical/procedural stuff, the "on the record" approved through PA would be fine. However, for opinions, going through PA is really just a waste of time. It's like a woman asking her husband if she looks fat.

imported_UncommonSense
03-15-2013, 01:31 PM
...It's like a woman asking her husband if she looks...

No you don't.


Sorry. Instinct kicked in.

sandsjames
03-15-2013, 01:33 PM
No you don't.


Sorry. Instinct kicked in.

Good answer...way to be quick. You never want to pause for a fraction of a second before answering.

JD2780
03-15-2013, 01:35 PM
As an outsider looking in and writing about the Air Force, I can do it two ways:

1. I can get cooperation from public affairs to arrange an interview on the record. Any E-3 or E-4 placed into that situation (and with a public affairs person present) is going to be very uncomfortable and is not going to provide the straight answer to which you refer. I can learn a lot from doing this, and I do, but I don't get the straight talk you refer to.

2. I can talk to people privately, relying on the hundreds of people in the Air Force who know I'm not going to burn them, and have conversations that aren't official and aren't on the record. Even then, I'm still an outsider and the Heisenberg Principle applies.

An outsider can't just sit down and get straight talk from an E-4 who's busy busting his ass. It doesn't work that way. It doesn't help for you to imply that an O-4 or an O-5 doesn't work hard. Most of them don't have much experience talking to an outsider, either, and while they naturally exercise caution they don't necessarily have canned political answers.

Go find an Air Support Operations Squadron. The TACPs will answer honestly regardless of the PAOs being there. We're used to be chastised by big blue for sunglasses and uniforms. So we've always given it straight. Had breakfast with Gen Siep once, and he asked many questions. I gave a few answers which resulted in a phone call from our group Chief. I didnt care, he couldnt do anything to me since I was honest and not disrespectful. However, the truth came out!! I will imply that several of the O-4s I have ran across were working hard at getting O-5 and several of the O-5s were more concerned with O-6. Many of the ones I have ran across were simply passing through the ASOS as a "staff tour" and didnt give two shits about how they left the place. Thats my experience with them. Exercising caution and shredding the truth are two different things.

bluecyclone1
03-15-2013, 02:36 PM
Ah, ice plant. If you're talking about the kind that's green (not a facility that manufactures frozen water), you're bringing back memories of duty at the Presidio of Monterey in a past era: language study five days a week followed by Saturday work details trimming the ice plant around the commander's residence and other facilities. If that's the kind you're referring to, "ice plant" was a bad word in that place at that time.

Yes that kind of ice plant. The kind that my father spoke of quite "eloquently" and still speaks of with the very same "eloquence" 43 years later.

bluecyclone1
03-15-2013, 02:46 PM
As an outsider looking in and writing about the Air Force, I can do it two ways:

1. I can get cooperation from public affairs to arrange an interview on the record. Any E-3 or E-4 placed into that situation (and with a public affairs person present) is going to be very uncomfortable and is not going to provide the straight answer to which you refer. I can learn a lot from doing this, and I do, but I don't get the straight talk you refer to.

2. I can talk to people privately, relying on the hundreds of people in the Air Force who know I'm not going to burn them, and have conversations that aren't official and aren't on the record. Even then, I'm still an outsider and the Heisenberg Principle applies.

An outsider can't just sit down and get straight talk from an E-4 who's busy busting his ass. It doesn't work that way. It doesn't help for you to imply that an O-4 or an O-5 doesn't work hard. Most of them don't have much experience talking to an outsider, either, and while they naturally exercise caution they don't necessarily have canned political answers.

You need to find the enlisted that have been separated for a few years(three to five years) and talk to them. They aren't under big blue's thumb anymore and would give you a no bullshit perspective. You can then take all of those interviews, pick out the stuff that's just bitching and griping, and come up with something that would reflect how folks feel. The average E-3/E-4 isn't going to tell you everything that goes on because they don't want to have to get in trouble. The average O-3/O-4 isn't going to tell you everything that goes on because their nose is up the CC's ass bucking for promotion.

Telling the unabridged truth is frowned upon in private staff meetings. Telling the unabridged truth in public is the equivalent of taking a dump in the CSAFs coffee pot on the day Hagel shows up for a meet and greet.

Robert F. Dorr
03-15-2013, 10:41 PM
You need to find the enlisted that have been separated for a few years(three to five years) and talk to them. They aren't under big blue's thumb anymore and would give you a no bullshit perspective. You can then take all of those interviews, pick out the stuff that's just bitching and griping, and come up with something that would reflect how folks feel. The average E-3/E-4 isn't going to tell you everything that goes on because they don't want to have to get in trouble. The average O-3/O-4 isn't going to tell you everything that goes on because their nose is up the CC's ass bucking for promotion.

Telling the unabridged truth is frowned upon in private staff meetings. Telling the unabridged truth in public is the equivalent of taking a dump in the CSAFs coffee pot on the day Hagel shows up for a meet and greet.

Well said. I already do exactly what you suggested and it works well.

MACHINE666
03-16-2013, 10:58 AM
Kunsan USED to be one happy family, where the philosophy was "Work Hard, Play Harder", but that all changed when the Politically Correct Air Force came in and killed that mentality. How did they do it? By limiting drinking, establishing curfews and enacting lock-downs, and empowering the Senior NCOs there to run around like Darth Vader's Storm Troopers, having the ability to harass people over every time thing. This all happened in the late 90's and the early Y2k's. I was there during that time frame, and can attest that I've seen Kunsan go from being a really great assignment (a college campus without the drugs), to one that makes you cringe at it's very mention (a prison camp without the drugs).

If Congress enacts another round of BRACs, I hope Kunsan is first on the list. Then, I hope the locals burn that place down to the ground, and conduct a Buddhist purification ritual once the land has been given back to the Koreans. There is way too much bad karma at that place.

Robert F. Dorr
03-16-2013, 11:15 AM
I don't think you're going to live to see the U.S. withdraw from Kunsan because of a base realignment and closing effort or for any other reason. We have too little ramp space and too few runways in South Korea as it is now. That raises the question of whether Kunsan might ever become an accompanied tour. Generation after generation of Wolf -- I wonder if that term receives its fair share of ridicule on the ground? -- have told me that the size, shape and infrastructure will not permit accompanying family members. But is that true? And that raises the question of whether Kunsan being an accompanied tour would be a good thing. Military people talk about sacrifice more than anyone else and those who talk about it most do it least but a tour of duty at Kunsan really does involve sacrifice.

Robert F. Dorr
03-16-2013, 02:36 PM
EFS is Expeditionary Fighter Squadron, Bob. You were talking to a deployed Sq/CC, not one assigned to the 8FW.

Want to have fun with Air Force terminology? Tell me the origin of TSP (that's Theater Security Package, KellyinAvon). It's the term for (typically) a squadron deployed for an extended period to add forces to a region. TSPs go into Andersen and Kunsan all the time and no doubt they appear elsewhere. An Air Force news release says the TSP concept was invented by PACOM (that's U.S. Pacific Command, KellyinAvon) but I don't think that's accurate.

So where did the term, and the concept, originate? If anyone can tell me, I'll give you something nice.

Just don't expect it to be easy to locate the origin of the TSP concept.

KellyinAvon
03-16-2013, 06:35 PM
Want to have fun with Air Force terminology? Tell me the origin of TSP (that's Theater Security Package, KellyinAvon). It's the term for (typically) a squadron deployed for an extended period to add forces to a region. TSPs go into Andersen and Kunsan all the time and no doubt they appear elsewhere. An Air Force news release says the TSP concept was invented by PACOM (that's U.S. Pacific Command, KellyinAvon) but I don't think that's accurate.

So where did the term, and the concept, originate? If anyone can tell me, I'll give you something nice.

Just don't expect it to be easy to locate the origin of the TSP concept.

I contribute 5% to my TSP to take advantage of the matching funds. The L-series of funds are outstanding.

Robert F. Dorr
03-16-2013, 07:31 PM
I contribute 5% to my TSP to take advantage of the matching funds. The L-series of funds are outstanding.

That's the same thing my Labrador retriever Autumn does on the neighbor's front lawn. She makes a deposit.

Greg
03-16-2013, 07:51 PM
That's the same thing my Labrador retriever Autumn does on the neighbor's front lawn. She makes a deposit.

A deposit, or a message?

Quixotic
03-16-2013, 07:56 PM
I had that problem once, so I deployed a TSP.

No more deposits or messages.

Robert F. Dorr
03-17-2013, 02:27 AM
It appears that my effort to learn the origin of the term Theater Security Package (and of the concept to which it refers) is being sidetracked by flawed information in Air Force publications and news releases, to say nothing of the paucity of assistance in this venue. But I do want to make it clear that when my dog trespasses on the neighbor's yard she leaves more than a message.

imnohero
03-17-2013, 02:50 AM
Well, whether you call it a TSP or something else. The concept was "new" in 91-92, when the AF first started talking about the AEF concept. But that was taken from deploying airlift and fighter squadrons to the Philipines and other places during Vietnam. It's been called different things, because Colonels get promoted by coming up with new names for things. But its the same thing, anyway. Deploying a functional unit to temporarily boost forces in a region. I don't know the names from the past, and the furthest back I was aware of this sort of employment of forces was Vietnam. I'm not enough of an expert on Korea to know if it was done then.

RobotChicken
03-17-2013, 03:00 AM
Want to have fun with Air Force terminology? Tell me the origin of TSP (that's Theater Security Package, KellyinAvon). It's the term for (typically) a squadron deployed for an extended period to add forces to a region. TSPs go into Andersen and Kunsan all the time and no doubt they appear elsewhere. An Air Force news release says the TSP concept was invented by PACOM (that's U.S. Pacific Command, KellyinAvon) but I don't think that's accurate.

So where did the term, and the concept, originate? If anyone can tell me, I'll give you something nice.

Just don't expect it to be easy to locate the origin of the TSP concept.

LQQKING for two days...nothing but a run around,like it is somebody's hot potato. Went as far back to '49 through 'nam '65..zip. MACV was all I came up with and then it started changing names.

Robert F. Dorr
03-17-2013, 03:01 AM
Well, whether you call it a TSP or something else. The concept was "new" in 91-92, when the AF first started talking about the AEF concept. But that was taken from deploying airlift and fighter squadrons to the Philipines and other places during Vietnam. It's been called different things, because Colonels get promoted by coming up with new names for things. But its the same thing, anyway. Deploying a functional unit to temporarily boost forces in a region. I don't know the names from the past, and the furthest back I was aware of this sort of employment of forces was Vietnam. I'm not enough of an expert on Korea to know if it was done then.

Everything you write above is accurate. And I recall a lot of the history of the 1990s expeditionary concept. In fact, the Air Force chief of staff associated with the concept threw me out of his office. But for my purpose, I need to know the origin of the current term TSP in our recent history.

imnohero
03-17-2013, 03:39 AM
In the bowels of a thesaurus on some 06's desk? (that's a joke).

KellyinAvon
03-17-2013, 10:52 AM
Everything you write above is accurate. And I recall a lot of the history of the 1990s expeditionary concept. In fact, the Air Force chief of staff associated with the concept threw me out of his office. But for my purpose, I need to know the origin of the current term TSP in our recent history.

This is starting to sound like McPeak's "Objective Wing" crap.

Robert F. Dorr
03-17-2013, 11:20 AM
In the bowels of a thesaurus on some 06's desk? (that's a joke).

It's a joke? Count me as repeating Dorothy Parker's response when told Calvin Coolidge was dead.

Robert F. Dorr
03-17-2013, 11:21 AM
This is starting to sound like McPeak's "Objective Wing" crap.

Yes, but it wasn't he who tossed me.

KellyinAvon
03-17-2013, 11:28 AM
Yes, but it wasn't he who tossed me.

That does narrow it down. Next guess would be General Ryan. The AEF (then EAF) concept came around during his watch.
Although having Skelator tell you to leave would be a badge of honor with those of us from that era.

imnohero
03-17-2013, 11:53 AM
It's a joke? Count me as repeating Dorothy Parker's response when told Calvin Coolidge was dead.

LOL

She was great.

imnohero
03-17-2013, 01:06 PM
Seriously, regarding "TSP", the earliest mention of it I can find is 2002, 380th Air Expeditionary Wing, using theater support packages to support Operation Enduring Freedom. But that doesn't explain the origin of the name.

Robert F. Dorr
03-17-2013, 03:18 PM
Seriously, regarding "TSP", the earliest mention of it I can find is 2002, 380th Air Expeditionary Wing, using theater support packages to support Operation Enduring Freedom. But that doesn't explain the origin of the name.

That's a big help. It points me toward some related stuff. Thank you.

Robert F. Dorr
03-17-2013, 03:28 PM
That does narrow it down. Next guess would be General Ryan. The AEF (then EAF) concept came around during his watch.
Although having Skelator tell you to leave would be a badge of honor with those of us from that era.

You're exactly right on all points. During that era a different writer published an opinion piece titled something like, "Quick Fixes Aren't the Solution," in reference to the EAF plan. Having read stuff of mine that was critical and apparently in the belief that I'd also written "Quick Fixes," he invited me to leave right in the middle of a visit and interview in his office. He also made a short-lived attempt to ban a well-known publication from Air Force bases, an order from the boss that lasted for less than 24 hours during which time underlings told him that wasn't a practical idea. In retrospect, i think he deserved a better press and more credit although KellyinAvon's overall perception seems about right.

Badge of honor, indeed. Maybe I should have taken with me the book I'd presented -- the first of about a dozen titles never to make the chief's reading list over that year and subsequent years.

KellyinAvon
03-17-2013, 06:30 PM
You're exactly right on all points. During that era a different writer published an opinion piece titled something like, "Quick Fixes Aren't the Solution," in reference to the EAF plan. Having read stuff of mine that was critical and apparently in the belief that I'd also written "Quick Fixes," he invited me to leave right in the middle of a visit and interview in his office. He also made a short-lived attempt to ban a well-known publication from Air Force bases, an order from the boss that lasted for less than 24 hours during which time underlings told him that wasn't a practical idea. In retrospect, i think he deserved a better press and more credit although KellyinAvon's overall perception seems about right.

Badge of honor, indeed. Maybe I should have taken with me the book I'd presented -- the first of about a dozen titles never to make the chief's reading list over that year and subsequent years.

Sounds like you made the CSAF DNR (do not read) list.

Capt Alfredo
03-17-2013, 08:20 PM
Sounds like you made the CSAF DNR (do not read) list.

You'd think they'd at least let Bob set up camp at the BX bookstore for a signing.

Robert F. Dorr
03-17-2013, 08:27 PM
Sounds like you made the CSAF DNR (do not read) list.

The only time I felt certain I would actually make the real list, he got fired before it could happen.

Robert F. Dorr
03-17-2013, 08:28 PM
You'd think they'd at least let Bob set up camp at the BX bookstore for a signing.

Almost impossible to arrange.

Capt Alfredo
03-17-2013, 09:02 PM
Almost impossible to arrange.

Have you gotten a satisfactory explanation as to why?

MACHINE666
03-18-2013, 07:02 PM
I don't think you're going to live to see the U.S. withdraw from Kunsan because of a base realignment and closing effort or for any other reason. We have too little ramp space and too few runways in South Korea as it is now. That raises the question of whether Kunsan might ever become an accompanied tour. Generation after generation of Wolf -- I wonder if that term receives its fair share of ridicule on the ground? -- have told me that the size, shape and infrastructure will not permit accompanying family members. But is that true? And that raises the question of whether Kunsan being an accompanied tour would be a good thing. Military people talk about sacrifice more than anyone else and those who talk about it most do it least but a tour of duty at Kunsan really does involve sacrifice.


It was on the BRAC list twice, back in the 90's if I'm not mistaken, so anything is possible.

Besides we have aircraft carriers that can launch and retrieve Navy jets out at sea. We also have bases on mainland Japan that won't get wiped out the moment the flag goes up, and North Korea sucker-punches us all.

And whatever horse shit the 8 FW so-called 'leadership' is feeding people, saying that the base can't be expanded - that's about as fake as the tits on a $10 tranny...families can live in near-by Rainbow Village until CE finishes constructing the family housing towers similar to what they have up at Osan. You know as well as I do, that in Korea, you build UP because space to expand is very limited.