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Robert F. Dorr
03-10-2013, 03:47 PM
In a time when everyday U.S. airmen perceive generals as feathering their beds for cushy future jobs in the aerospace industry, Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan seems stubbornly bent on doing the job they gave him to perform today rather than setting himself up for a cushy, private-sector job tomorrow. With an extraordinary display of integrity that has been lacking in most American generals in recent years (see the discussion about Colin Powell on another thread), Bogdan is willing to annoy the hell out of powerful industry magnates who court and corrupt lesser men.

The manager of the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter program, Bogdan had harsh words for planemaker Lockheed Martin and engine producer Pratt & Whitney in a statement to reporters in January: "“I want them both to start behaving like they want to be around for 40 years," Bogdan warned. "I want them to take on some of the risk of this program. I want them to invest in cost reductions. I want them to do the things that will build a better relationship. I’m not getting all that love yet."

Have you noticed this general? This is no careerist sycophant. He looks like and sounds like the real deal.

Am I right? Am I giving him too much credit? What?

BOSS302
03-10-2013, 03:52 PM
In a time when everyday U.S. airmen perceive generals as feathering their beds for cushy future jobs in the aerospace industry, Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan seems stubbornly bent on doing the job they gave him to perform today rather than setting himself up for a cushy, private-sector job tomorrow. With an extraordinary display of integrity that has been lacking in most American generals in recent years (see the discussion about Colin Powell on another thread), Bogdan is willing to annoy the hell out of powerful industry magnates who court and corrupt lesser men.

The manager of the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter program, Bogdan had harsh words for planemaker Lockheed Martin and engine producer Pratt & Whitney in a statement to reporters in January: "“I want them both to start behaving like they want to be around for 40 years," Bogdan warned. "I want them to take on some of the risk of this program. I want them to invest in cost reductions. I want them to do the things that will build a better relationship. I’m not getting all that love yet."

Have you noticed this general? This is no careerist sycophant. He looks like and sounds like the real deal.

Am I right? Am I giving him too much credit? What?

No one is discussing Colin Powell's lack of integrity as a United States Army General on another thread; you are just attacking his integrity and character on another thread. Again, you prove just how small you are.

Robert F. Dorr
03-10-2013, 03:56 PM
No one is discussing Colin Powell's lack of integrity as a United States Army General on another thread; you are just attacking his integrity and character on another thread. Again, you prove just how small you are.

It was not my intention to misrepresent the discussion about Powell. I was searching for a contrast. I could have picked almost any other current general. Petraeus is a good example. You are correct that no one except me has pointed to Powell's flaws on these forums. Plenty of people have done so elsewhere. You're not helping with my purpose, which is to find out what people think of Bogdan.

OtisRNeedleman
03-10-2013, 03:56 PM
From looking at his bio I'd say this general really does care about this aircraft and the AF. Believe he wants these contractors to provide the right plane and not just line their pockets. Hope he gets support from the CSAF and Congress in his quest.

BOSS302
03-10-2013, 04:13 PM
It was not my intention to misrepresent the discussion about Powell. I was searching for a contrast. I could have picked almost any other current general. Petraeus is a good example. You are correct that no one except me has pointed to Powell's flaws on these forums. Plenty of people have done so elsewhere. You're not helping with my purpose, which is to find out what people think of Bogdan.

You pointed to Colin Powell's flaws? No, you did not. You did this:



typical of a career of a man who will say anything or do anything to get ahead and who doesn't possess an iota of honesty. There is not a single thing to admire about this man. He is the prototype for all of the self-serving, suck-up sycophants who followed and who got us into the mess we're in today.

Doesn't have any honesty? Nothing to admire about him? He's the prototype for all "suck-up sycophants"?

That's not "pointing out flaws", that is blatant character assassination. But what else should be expected of a small, tiny, vindictive man who lurks in the bowels of the Military Times forums, looking for his next column idea? For good or bad (because history has yet to make its judgment), Colin Powell will be remembered and noted.

You, on the other hand, will not. And that is very good.

In regards to General Bogdan, he seems to be doing a fine job as a General (much like Colin Powell). Let's just hope he stays in your good graces lest his name is associated with your pathetic verbal vitriol on these forums.

imnohero
03-10-2013, 04:18 PM
In a time when everyday U.S. airmen perceive generals as feathering their beds for cushy future jobs in the aerospace industry, Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan seems stubbornly bent on doing the job they gave him to perform today rather than setting himself up for a cushy, private-sector job tomorrow. With an extraordinary display of integrity that has been lacking in most American generals in recent years (see the discussion about Colin Powell on another thread), Bogdan is willing to annoy the hell out of powerful industry magnates who court and corrupt lesser men.

The manager of the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter program, Bogdan had harsh words for planemaker Lockheed Martin and engine producer Pratt & Whitney in a statement to reporters in January: "“I want them both to start behaving like they want to be around for 40 years," Bogdan warned. "I want them to take on some of the risk of this program. I want them to invest in cost reductions. I want them to do the things that will build a better relationship. I’m not getting all that love yet."

Have you noticed this general? This is no careerist sycophant. He looks like and sounds like the real deal.

Am I right? Am I giving him too much credit? What?

OK, let us examine his recent history (from his bio (http://www.af.mil/information/bios/bio.asp?bioID=11932)), his last 4 assignment were:


May 2008 - May 2009, Senior Military Assistant to the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics, Office of the Secretary of Defense, Washington, D.C.
June 2009 - July 2012, KC-46 Program Executive Officer and Program Director, KC-46 Tanker Modernization Directorate, Aeronautical Systems Center, Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio

PEO for the new tanker during the acquisition contract award phase. During which we had the AF select a program, be protested for unethical/illegal practices, and then select another tanker. Tell me Bob, is rigging the competition in favor of an inferior aircraft a sign of integrity and not "setting himself up for a cushy, private-sector job tomorrow"? For a person who values history, you seem to not know Bogdan's.


July 2012 - December 2012, Deputy Program Executive Officer for the F-35 Lightning II Joint Program Office, Arlington, Va.

Deputy PEO for 6 months, during which time he did what to act in the best interest of the program or AF?


December 2012 - present, Program Executive Officer for the F-35 Lightning II Joint Program Office, Arlington, Va.

Hasn't been PEO long enough to effect any change.

So, in conclusion, a single unsupported statement does not define the character of a man. I'd prefer to look at his history and actions myself. To me, the debacle of the tanker selection (over which he presided and lead) is a strong black mark against your sentiment.

Robert F. Dorr
03-10-2013, 05:16 PM
You pointed to Colin Powell's flaws? No, you did not. You did this:

Doesn't have any honesty? Nothing to admire about him? He's the prototype for all "suck-up sycophants"?

That's not "pointing out flaws", that is blatant character assassination. But what else should be expected of a small, tiny, vindictive man who lurks in the bowels of the Military Times forums, looking for his next column idea? For good or bad (because history has yet to make its judgment), Colin Powell will be remembered and noted.

You, on the other hand, will not. And that is very good.

In regards to General Bogdan, he seems to be doing a fine job as a General (much like Colin Powell). Let's just hope he stays in your good graces lest his name is associated with your pathetic verbal vitriol on these forums.

I wish I hadn't created this distraction from the subject of Bogdan. You could not possibly be more wrong about history not yet making its judgment, however. It is almost impossible to imagine anyone as thoroughly discredited as Powell. You are correct to criticize my not citing specific examples but that isn't the topic I want to discuss and besides the record is too plain to need any amplification.

Robert F. Dorr
03-10-2013, 05:17 PM
Rfd,
This is another suspect user who magically
Started another username this month.
Beware!

Which one, Tak? Which one? Or do I care?

Robert F. Dorr
03-10-2013, 05:22 PM
Imnohero is correct that I don't know his history in the tanker program, which is, of course, why I asked for comments. However, if I want to learn more I'll have to look farther than the post from Imnohero, which does an extraordinary job of not mentioning which tanker this general favored. I'll have to find out elsewhere. The KC-X tanker competition, like the Light Air Support competition, was a no-brainer: instead of taking years, it should have taken 20 minutes to figure out which was the better aircraft. In KC-X, they chose the wrong aircraft for a program that is sorely needed. In LAS, they picked the right airplane for a program that isn't needed at all. Both decisions could have been reached with a 20-minute walk-around check. But, again, Imnohero is right that I'm not yet educated on Bogdan's role here.

Robert F. Dorr
03-10-2013, 05:23 PM
Rfd,
This is another suspect user who magically
Started another username this month.
Beware!

Oh, yeah. I see it now, Tak. Pretty obvious who it is.

imnohero
03-10-2013, 05:41 PM
does an extraordinary job of not mentioning which tanker this general favored. I'll have to find out elsewhere.

OMG, you might have to do your own research instead of getting it from me? Gads, what have I done? As long as you're doing research, do some on what this guy has done besides make one statement that you like.

As to the other, it's irrelevant which tanker he supported. He was in a position to stop the corrupt selection process and he didn't. I mean, if we are going by unsupported evidence, like a single statement in the press taken out of context, why not take this out of context?

tiredretiredE7
03-10-2013, 05:50 PM
You pointed to Colin Powell's flaws? No, you did not. You did this:




Doesn't have any honesty? Nothing to admire about him? He's the prototype for all "suck-up sycophants"?

That's not "pointing out flaws", that is blatant character assassination. But what else should be expected of a small, tiny, vindictive man who lurks in the bowels of the Military Times forums, looking for his next column idea? For good or bad (because history has yet to make its judgment), Colin Powell will be remembered and noted.

You, on the other hand, will not. And that is very good.

In regards to General Bogdan, he seems to be doing a fine job as a General (much like Colin Powell). Let's just hope he stays in your good graces lest his name is associated with your pathetic verbal vitriol on these forums.

You seem to be very advanced on how these forums work. Are you AKA RustyJones AKA Boss302?

Robert F. Dorr
03-10-2013, 05:55 PM
OMG, you might have to do your own research instead of getting it from me? Gads, what have I done? As long as you're doing research, do some on what this guy has done besides make one statement that you like.

As to the other, it's irrelevant which tanker he supported. He was in a position to stop the corrupt selection process and he didn't. I mean, if we are going by unsupported evidence, like a single statement in the press taken out of context, why not take this out of context?

Isn't this a forum where we learn from one another? My purpose is to find out what people think of this guy. I'm pretty familiar with his background and have just brushed up on it, but I don't see the point you're making. If you don't wish to contribute on this subject, you have the happy option of doing nothing. If you're going to contribute, why not reveal to the world what you're trying to say about this guy and the tanker?

imnohero
03-10-2013, 06:00 PM
Isn't this a forum where we learn from one another? My purpose is to find out what people think of this guy. I'm pretty familiar with his background and have just brushed up on it, but I don't see the point you're making. If you don't wish to contribute on this subject, you have the happy option of doing nothing. If you're going to contribute, why not reveal to the world what you're trying to say about this guy and the tanker?

I have been perfectly clear in my opinion. Whether you learn anything is rather more in your control than mine, don't you think.

tiredretiredE7
03-10-2013, 06:03 PM
Isn't this a forum where we learn from one another? My purpose is to find out what people think of this guy. I'm pretty familiar with his background and have just brushed up on it, but I don't see the point you're making. If you don't wish to contribute on this subject, you have the happy option of doing nothing. If you're going to contribute, why not reveal to the world what you're trying to say about this guy and the tanker?

RFD,

The current state of senior AF leadership is so in love with the new asset that they have been blinded by the "bling" of a new airframe over the mission effectiveness of a new airframe; ie, F22, F35 and the tanker. Generals with integrity who actually speak up are immediately shot down by the majority rule of the new core of "bling" generals. I feel this focus would be a more effective way to start up a more in-depth conversation. This is where the AF is today and why the current AF keeps making very bad decisions. I just hope General Welsh can get the rest of the generals back on track.

Robert F. Dorr
03-10-2013, 07:23 PM
I have been perfectly clear in my opinion. Whether you learn anything is rather more in your control than mine, don't you think.

No. You're usually very articulate. But in your post on this topic you weren't clear. Imagine if I wrote a sentence for my editor saying, "He supported the wrong tanker." I'm not going to tell my editor which tanker he supported? Won't work. Isn't clear.

I seek to learn from these Forums not so much about the facts -- I can find them -- as about what people think. Had you been as clear as you usually are, you would have been a great help with that.

sandsjames
03-10-2013, 07:37 PM
No. You're usually very articulate. But in your post on this topic you weren't clear.I thought he was pretty clear, but that's just me. Of course, being an Air Force forum, airmen seem to have a much easier time recognizing the context than the non/ex airmen.

Imagine if I wrote a sentence for my editor saying, "He supported the wrong tanker." I'm not going to tell my editor which tanker he supported? Won't work. Isn't clear. Luckily, posts in this forum aren't reviewed by an editor.

You asked a question. "imnohero" answered, explaining what he thought of the General and why he feels that way. He gave examples. Examples as clear as your reason why Powell is the scum of the earth.

Frankly, when you were talking about Powell, I didn't find your comments very clear. All you said was (paraphrasing) that he lied during a UN speech about WMDs. Which UN speech was that? Did he make more than one? Please give me the dates and times so I can form a more educated and informed decision on whether or not I agree with you. You can't just say "during his speech" and not tell us which speech. How are we possibly supposed to know what you were talking about?

Robert F. Dorr
03-10-2013, 08:16 PM
I thought he was pretty clear, but that's just me. Of course, being an Air Force forum, airmen seem to have a much easier time recognizing the context than the non/ex airmen.
Luckily, posts in this forum aren't reviewed by an editor.

You asked a question. "imnohero" answered, explaining what he thought of the General and why he feels that way. He gave examples. Examples as clear as your reason why Powell is the scum of the earth.

Frankly, when you were talking about Powell, I didn't find your comments very clear. All you said was (paraphrasing) that he lied during a UN speech about WMDs. Which UN speech was that? Did he make more than one? Please give me the dates and times so I can form a more educated and informed decision on whether or not I agree with you. You can't just say "during his speech" and not tell us which speech. How are we possibly supposed to know what you were talking about?

sandsjames, if you need help knowing which United Nations speech, you don't have sufficient familiarity with Powell's history for me to be able to help you. His speech about the mobile biological weapons labs and related stuff was a seriously important event of the last decade. It should be sufficient to say "Colin Powell's United Nations speech." I could help you with this but I am up against a really tough deadline and it looks like imnohero, who could provide substantial assistance with a single sentence, isn't going to help.

By the way, everything you read in print is based in part on what other people contributed one way or another, whether with opinions, interviews, comments, or existing literature. Had imnohero chosen to explain what he meant by telling us which tanker Bogdan supported, he would have been a big help and would have saved me a little work. In retrospect, I wish I had not allowed the contempt in which so many people hold Powell to interfere with the purpose of writing about Bogdan. Ironically, if I put it in print and it's wrong those who didn't help will complain the most.

Robert F. Dorr
03-10-2013, 08:18 PM
RFD,

The current state of senior AF leadership is so in love with the new asset that they have been blinded by the "bling" of a new airframe over the mission effectiveness of a new airframe; ie, F22, F35 and the tanker. Generals with integrity who actually speak up are immediately shot down by the majority rule of the new core of "bling" generals. I feel this focus would be a more effective way to start up a more in-depth conversation. This is where the AF is today and why the current AF keeps making very bad decisions. I just hope General Welsh can get the rest of the generals back on track.

Alas, tiredretiredE7, too true. Too true, indeed.

sandsjames
03-10-2013, 08:28 PM
sandsjames, if you need help knowing which United Nations speech, you don't have sufficient familiarity with Powell's history for me to be able to help you. His speech about the mobile biological weapons labs and related stuff was a seriously important event of the last decade. It should be sufficient to say "Colin Powell's United Nations speech." I could help you with this but I am up against a really tough deadline and it looks like imnohero, who could provide substantial assistance with a single sentence, isn't going to help. Bob, if you are the resident aircraft expert and need help knowing which tanker "imnohero" was referring to, you don't have sufficient familiarity with this General for us to be able to help.

It should be sufficient, especially in an Air Force forum, to say that Bogdan supported the wrong one.

It is a shame your Powell comments are detracting from this thread. However, the purpose of the Powell thread was to discuss Generals who performed well. Powell did so. His comments to the UN were made while he was in a civilian position, which has nothing to do with his time as a serving General during the Gulf War.

Also, you know I love you. I only give you a hard time because you choose to be so critical of others writing while not seeing that you are guilty of doing the same thing, and unwilling to admit it.

Robert F. Dorr
03-10-2013, 08:37 PM
"PEO for the new tanker during the acquisition contract award phase. During which we had the AF select a program, be protested for unethical/illegal practices, and then select another tanker. Tell me Bob, is rigging the competition in favor of an inferior aircraft a sign of integrity and not "setting himself up for a cushy, private-sector job tomorrow"? For a person who values history, you seem to not know Bogdan's."

I thought I understood his role vis-a-vis the tanker until I read the above.

I have about 30 minutes more for this and then I'll have to push the "send" button. For introducing a major distraction in the form of my contempt for Powell, I probably deserve the unwillingness of anyone here assist with Bogdan or to decipher the paragraph in quotes above. It's too bad. Maybe it's my fault for mentioning Powell. Maybe it isn't my fault. But a difference of one or two words in the paragraph above would mean the world to me right now -- and would give me an opportunity to include your point of view -- and it looks like that isn't going to happen.

sandsjames
03-10-2013, 08:42 PM
I have about 30 minutes more for this and then I'll have to push the "send" button. For introducing a major distraction in the form of my contempt for Powell, I probably deserve the unwillingness of anyone here assist with Bogdan or to decipher the paragraph in quotes above. It's too bad. Maybe it's my fault for mentioning Powell. Maybe it isn't my fault. But a difference of one or two words in the paragraph above would mean the world to me right now -- and would give me an opportunity to include your point of view -- and it looks like that isn't going to happen.

I would help but, honestly, I know nothing about it. As I've stated in the past, I have little interest in airplanes and even less in the contracting of new ones. Sorry.

Robert F. Dorr
03-10-2013, 08:44 PM
I would help but, honestly, I know nothing about it. As I've stated in the past, I have little interest in airplanes and even less interested in the contracting of new ones. Sorry.

I have what I need. I just had to work a little harder and imnohero will have a little less opportunity to see his point of view reflected.

sandsjames
03-10-2013, 08:46 PM
I have what I need. I just had to work a little harder and imnohero will have a little less opportunity to see his point of view reflected.

People can view what you write? Where can this be done? It doesn't require purchasing anything, does it?

Robert F. Dorr
03-10-2013, 09:18 PM
People can view what you write? Where can this be done? It doesn't require purchasing anything, does it?

Of course not. If I manufacture a widget and you want it, it should be free, shouldn't it? Similarly, if I bust my [censored] to create an intellectual property after asking for help and receiving little, when you want it, it should be free, shouldn't it? There's a guy down the street who builds houses. If he builds a house for you, it should be free, should it not?

Everyone can now relax about the topic of this thread and the related issues. I completed a 1,400-word assignment in which I could have said more about Bogdan and the tanker but didn't. Now, I'm going to return to the Arado Ar 234 and the bridge at Remagen. Oh, and if you want to read about Bogdan without purchasing anything just walk into your local Barnes & Noble, look for the next issue of Air International, and tell them I said you should have it for free. (I would have been happy to arrange for a free copy for anyone who wanted to assist,)

sandsjames
03-10-2013, 09:24 PM
Of course not. If I manufacture a widget and you want it, it should be free, shouldn't it? Similarly, if I bust my [censored] to create an intellectual property after asking for help and receiving little, when you want it, it should be free, shouldn't it? There's a guy down the street who builds houses. If he builds a house for you, it should be free, should it not?

Everyone can now relax about the topic of this thread and the related issues. I completed a 1,400-word assignment in which I could have said more about Bogdan and the tanker but didn't. Now, I'm going to return to the Arado Ar 234 and the bridge at Remagen. Oh, and if you want to read about Bogdan without purchasing anything just walk into your local Barnes & Noble, look for the next issue of Air International, and tell them I said you should have it for free. (I would have been happy to arrange for a free copy for anyone who wanted to assist,)

A little defensive, but that's ok.

I'm sure someone will leave the magazine laying around here. There are 200 people in the building. I'm sure at least one of them likes to read. Is reading someone elses magazine the same as downloading movies for free online? Hope it's not a felony.

Out of curiosity (serious question) who are you target audience?

sandsjames
03-10-2013, 09:33 PM
Alright alright. Looks like rep boy is back.

imnohero
03-10-2013, 10:05 PM
I have what I need. I just had to work a little harder and imnohero will have a little less opportunity to see his point of view reflected.

1st, Who said I wanted my point of view represented?

2nd, unless you lead in with "For an article to be published in Air International..." how would I know that my point of view is to BE represented?

3rd, you're failure to grasp (let alone understand) a perfectly reasonable point because it wasn't spoon feed it to you like you read and reason at a 8th grade level is not my problem, and quite frankly I'm tired of doing so.

4th and finally, I could have sworn you strenuously objected to "all this talk" about integrity, saying to effect that "if it exists it needn't be discussed"...so why the sudden obsession with identifying who has it or doesn't?

imnohero
03-10-2013, 10:15 PM
I completed a 1,400-word assignment

You act as if 1400 words is a big deal. It's not. It's a couple hours effort, at most.

Robert F. Dorr
03-10-2013, 10:57 PM
This doesn't appear to have been a particularly helpful exchange.

Imnohero, you said explicitly that you wanted your point of view represented: I started this thread by asking for your thoughts and you provided them. Had you done so with more care, you could have substantially improved a piece of work that needed the very balance you could have provided. But when you offered your thoughts, the key point got lost somewhere -- whether my fault or yours, I don't know.

I didn't mean to say, and I did not say, that 1,400 words is a big deal. My goal is slightly less than double that, every day, seven days a week, whether I'm inspired or not, whether I'm sick or well, whether the weather is inviting me to go out or prompting me to feel gloomy. I don't think my goal of 2,739 words a day is a big deal, either, didn't mean to say it was, and did not say it was. You're mistaken, however, in thinking that one can write 1,400 words about complex factual matters in a couple of hours. There are plenty of writers who are far more prolific than I am, and they can't.

Imnohero, I'm sorry you're tired of spoon-feeding me at the 8th grade level. I would suggest a long nap, followed by a decision never again to offer a comment when asked for your thoughts. If you don't take this advice but choose instead to offer your thoughts again in the future do not expect me to read between the lines. That's especially true of anything involving the tanker situation, which has a complex and tortured history.

sandsjames
03-10-2013, 11:12 PM
This doesn't appear to have been a particularly helpful exchange.

Imnohero, you said explicitly that you wanted your point of view represented: Hmmm...can't find that
I started this thread by asking for your thoughts and you provided them. Is this what you mean by "explicitly" saying he wanted his point of view represented?

sandsjames
03-10-2013, 11:12 PM
And just to clarify, if you ask for our opinion on something, are we to assume you are asking permission to use it in a column?

imnohero
03-10-2013, 11:39 PM
This doesn't appear to have been a particularly helpful exchange.

Imnohero, you said explicitly that you wanted your point of view represented:

No, I may have given implicit consent, knowing that you are a writer and tend to use statement here to flesh out your own work. But I never gave explicit consent.



I didn't mean to say, and I did not say, that 1,400 words is a big deal. You're mistaken, however, in thinking that one can write 1,400 words about complex factual matters in a couple of hours. There are plenty of writers who are far more prolific than I am, and they can't.

That depends entirely on how well the writer knows, understands, and internalizes the complexity of the topic. That YOU don't know anyone capable of it, doesn't mean no one can, or that I am mistaken.



Imnohero, I would suggest a decision never again to offer a comment when asked for your thoughts.

Since this is a public forum, I will continue to offer comment in whatever style I choose, at my sole convenience.



If you don't take this advice but choose instead to offer your thoughts again in the future do not expect me to read between the lines.

I won't. In the future, you shouldn't expect me to delineate step-by-step how I arrive at my opinions, sparing you understanding a complex topic like the tanker acquisition, and providing you, on a platter, an uncompensated benefit.

If you desire a detailed opinion from me on a particular topic, contract for that opinion and provide me compensation for my time. As a subject matter expert, my current rate is $30/hr.

imnohero
03-10-2013, 11:41 PM
And just to clarify, if you ask for our opinion on something, are we to assume you are asking permission to use it in a column?



Short answer: Yes

Robert F. Dorr
03-11-2013, 12:02 AM
And just to clarify, if you ask for our opinion on something, are we to assume you are asking permission to use it in a column?

I don't need your permission. But, no, I'm not asking for it and this isn't about the column.

No. I'm looking for information and ideas, not for quotes. The issue of whether I need your permission would be relevant if I knew your real name, wanted to quote you using your real name, and wanted to use a quote that doesn't appear in a public place. I don't need your permission to use information or ideas that you display under a screen name on a public site. The situation with the column is a little different for reasons that are pretty complicated but nothing in this thread is related to any column of mine. I was looking for information and ideas for an article.

Here's a little about why the column (not a factor here) is different. I don't make the rules or administer them but as I understand it the editors at Military Times consider that they are entitled to publish any comment made by anyone in these Forums while attributing the comment to the person's screen name. If I understand correctly, they have a rule that it they do this, the quote must be exact. (So if you write a sentence that expresses a perfect idea but has misspellings and grammatical errors, those can't be corrected). I haven't discussed this with the editors but I have followed their example by quoting comments from these Forums in the column with attribution to the screen name. Again, that is not a factor for me with anything in this thread.

By the way, despite my frustration over imnohero being unwilling to say which tanker he thinks Bogdan supported, the exchanges that took place here today were very helpful, in part because they told me what to look for.

Robert F. Dorr
03-11-2013, 12:06 AM
"That depends entirely on how well the writer knows, understands, and internalizes the complexity of the topic. That YOU don't know anyone capable of it, doesn't mean no one can, or that I am mistaken."

Yes it does. You are mistaken. If you were referring to fiction or fantasy you might be right but this is about non-fiction, which means that every sentence contains facts. There are fewer than a hundred people in the world who can produce 1,400 words of non-fiction every day, let alone my goal of almost 2,800.

RobotChicken
03-11-2013, 12:10 AM
I would help but, honestly, I know nothing about it. As I've stated in the past, I have little interest in airplanes and even less in the contracting of new ones. Sorry.
:plane The NAVY is using jet-ski's now,in water world attack mode..so that might be up your wave since You are a 'groundpounding' Zoomie that doesn't read...or study 'history'..So WHY are you on this FORUM (Air Force last time 'I' RC checked) and HAVE the Pompous A$$ to critic MR.RFD? What was the last book you read? 'How to be a Professional A$$Clown when I RETIRE from the 'AIR CIRCUS' ??? Zoomies grounded..I swear......:lol

Robert F. Dorr
03-11-2013, 12:16 AM
:plane The NAVY is using jet-ski's now,in water world attack mode..so that might be up your wave since You are a 'groundpounding' Zoomie that doesn't read...or study 'history'..So WHY are you on this FORUM (Air Force last time 'I' RC checked) and HAVE the Pompous A$$ to critic MR.RFD? What was the last book you read? 'How to be a Professional A$$Clown when I RETIRE from the 'AIR CIRCUS' ??? Zoomies grounded..I swear......:lol

An excellent job of continuing the tradition of writing something meaning on this thread while being less than clear.

RobotChicken
03-11-2013, 12:25 AM
:tape2 'Only For You' Mr. Dorr.... One MUST Respect Their ELDERS....at least before the 'RISE OF THE A$$CLOWNS'! :clock:usa2

Robert F. Dorr
03-11-2013, 12:43 AM
:tape2 'Only For You' Mr. Dorr.... One MUST Respect Their ELDERS....at least before the 'RISE OF THE A$$CLOWNS'! :clock:usa2

Imnohero is one of my elders?

RobotChicken
03-11-2013, 12:52 AM
Imnohero is one of my elders?
Mr. Dorr, You are my elder due to your service to OUR Country and ongoing commitment to record unselfishly on your own resources the HISTORY of OUR Military in 'Trials and tribulations',the sacrifices of 'a few' for 'the many' that WE CHOOSE NOT TO FORGET and keep THEIR Memory ALIVE!! Now that is an 'American'! GOD Bless you! RC.

imnohero
03-11-2013, 01:00 AM
"That depends entirely on how well the writer knows, understands, and internalizes the complexity of the topic. That YOU don't know anyone capable of it, doesn't mean no one can, or that I am mistaken."

Yes it does. You are mistaken. If you were referring to fiction or fantasy you might be right but this is about non-fiction, which means that every sentence contains facts. There are fewer than a hundred people in the world who can produce 1,400 words of non-fiction every day, let alone my goal of almost 2,800.

You are contradicting yourself. But just incidentally, this also means I am not mistaken, since "fewer than a hundred" is at least one, then the statement that "no one can" is, in fact, wrong.

As to needing our permission to use statements made on this forum for articles NOT for the military times, I would suggest you check on that.

Robert F. Dorr
03-11-2013, 01:10 AM
You are contradicting yourself. But just incidentally, this also means I am not mistaken, since "fewer than a hundred" is at least one, then the statement that "no one can" is, in fact, wrong.

As to needing our permission to use statements made on this forum for articles NOT for the military times, I would suggest you check on that.

I can't find the contradiction.

Regarding your second point, whom would you have me check with?

I don't have any plan to use statements made on this forum -- only ideas and information gleaned from them -- but what if I did? None of us owns the words we write on this forum. They are fair game for anyone, not just me.

Robert F. Dorr
03-11-2013, 01:11 AM
Mr. Dorr, You are my elder due to your service to OUR Country and ongoing commitment to record unselfishly on your own resources the HISTORY of OUR Military in 'Trials and tribulations',the sacrifices of 'a few' for 'the many' that WE CHOOSE NOT TO FORGET and keep THEIR Memory ALIVE!! Now that is an 'American'! GOD Bless you! RC.

I think that's a compliment and, if so, thank you, but I wish it didn't include an apparent reference to age.

RobotChicken
03-11-2013, 01:46 AM
I think that's a compliment and, if so, thank you, but I wish it didn't include an apparent reference to age.
:doh Mr. Dorr, you would do circles around 'PT GOD' intellectually and physically....you are 21 at Heart and mind! And THAT is what makes you STRONG!! "Son..I have been your age but you have NEVER been MINE..now shut up and .....listen..and you STILL have two ears... TODAY....hint.hint!" :hail and they say tigers don't....:croc

RobotChicken
03-11-2013, 02:10 AM
:violin (Godfather movie theme please)" Thank you for your 'blessing' Godfather." (after all, Michael was a MARINE!) :love

RobotChicken
03-11-2013, 02:26 AM
:spy Well goodness sake that we can still say 'GOD' on this forum.....for know.......:whoo

imnohero
03-11-2013, 02:55 AM
None of us owns the words we write on this forum. They are fair game for anyone, not just me.

The first statement is true. They are owned by the military times organization(s).

The second statement is false, and you know it.

imnohero
03-11-2013, 03:13 AM
Right, he doesn't need my permission, he needs the permission of "Army Times" who essentially owns all intellectual property on this forum.

BURAWSKI
03-11-2013, 03:47 AM
Right, he doesn't need my permission, he needs the permission of "Army Times" who essentially owns all intellectual property on this forum.

This reminds me of a Letter to the Editor I forwarded to Navy Times several years ago. It was published with a very few words edited out. It was highly critical of President Bush and his rush to invade Iraq. Anyway, about a year later I found through a google search that same letter published in a left wing newsletter somewhere in Texas. The letter was copied exactly as I wrote it and included my name. I was surprised to see it but it appears someone just saw the letter and decided to have it published in their local newsletter for some reason.

RobotChicken
03-11-2013, 04:26 AM
:closed_2:lol Speaking of clowns.....OPPS Generals....:clock

imnohero
03-11-2013, 04:29 AM
This reminds me of a Letter to the Editor I forwarded to Navy Times several years ago. It was published with a very few words edited out. It was highly critical of President Bush and his rush to invade Iraq. Anyway, about a year later I found through a google search that same letter published in a left wing newsletter somewhere in Texas. The letter was copied exactly as I wrote it and included my name. I was surprised to see it but it appears someone just saw the letter and decided to have it published in their local newsletter for some reason.

The problem really isn't whether they have the intellectual property rights for things posted on this forum, or submitted to the website or newspaper. But they also have exclusive ownership rights to your profile information, images, and anything other information you put on the forums or elsewhere that is owned and/or operated by the "military times" group(s). The really disconcerting thing, is that they maintain exclusive, unlimited rights to distribute any and all of that information, statements, etc. to anyone they feel like giving it to, for any reason they feel like giving it.

Since military times is now owned by Gannet News, you could see your profile information published and used in any paper, TV, radio, internet, etc. on this list. (http://www.gannett.com/section/WHOWEARE06)

Which is why I have no profile, no welcome, don't accept or send private messages, don't "friend" anyone, and limit my interactions to this forum only. It is, in however small a way, a way to manage my anonymity online and control what intellectual property I "give away."

RobotChicken
03-11-2013, 04:41 AM
:spy Gosh help forum folks like 'PT-God', they have:clock:smash none to give,let alone' the flaming 'A$$CLOWN airmenance'! :flame:flame:flame:flame Intellectual is Not in their vocabulary.....

Robert F. Dorr
03-11-2013, 09:43 AM
This reminds me of a Letter to the Editor I forwarded to Navy Times several years ago. It was published with a very few words edited out. It was highly critical of President Bush and his rush to invade Iraq. Anyway, about a year later I found through a google search that same letter published in a left wing newsletter somewhere in Texas. The letter was copied exactly as I wrote it and included my name. I was surprised to see it but it appears someone just saw the letter and decided to have it published in their local newsletter for some reason.

That is something they DON'T have a right to do. About once a week some web site takes something I've published and reprints it without permission. When they do that, they receive a bill.

Note also that while the editors can make editorial changes to a letter you send them, my understanding is that if they use anything you post here they cannot make changes to it,.

Robert F. Dorr
03-11-2013, 09:46 AM
Right, he doesn't need my permission, he needs the permission of "Army Times" who essentially owns all intellectual property on this forum.

To use your exact language in publication elsewhere, perhaps. To take information and ideas and use them, not so much.

sandsjames
03-11-2013, 01:27 PM
:plane The NAVY is using jet-ski's now,in water world attack mode..so that might be up your wave since You are a 'groundpounding' Zoomie that doesn't read...or study 'history'..So WHY are you on this FORUM (Air Force last time 'I' RC checked) and HAVE the Pompous A$$ to critic MR.RFD? What was the last book you read? 'How to be a Professional A$$Clown when I RETIRE from the 'AIR CIRCUS' ??? Zoomies grounded..I swear......:lol
Did you refer to yourself in the 3rd person? Rainmaker, is that you????:lalala

imnohero
03-11-2013, 01:34 PM
To use your exact language in publication elsewhere, perhaps. To take information and ideas and use them, not so much.

You better read the terms of service again, Bob. They own the rights to "...the Materials, including any derivative works created from the Materials, in whole or in part, for any purpose and in any manner, form, format or medium..."

Ideas and information, from this forum, used to create "derivative works" (i.e. what you write), are owned by them, automatically. By signing in and using this forum, you agreed to those terms of service, whether you realized it or not.

By the way, that includes your first post to this thread. You really should be more careful putting your work on this forum.

Pullinteeth
03-11-2013, 02:10 PM
In a time when everyday U.S. airmen perceive generals as feathering their beds for cushy future jobs in the aerospace industry, Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan seems stubbornly bent on doing the job they gave him to perform today rather than setting himself up for a cushy, private-sector job tomorrow. With an extraordinary display of integrity that has been lacking in most American generals in recent years (see the discussion about Colin Powell on another thread), Bogdan is willing to annoy the hell out of powerful industry magnates who court and corrupt lesser men.

The manager of the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter program, Bogdan had harsh words for planemaker Lockheed Martin and engine producer Pratt & Whitney in a statement to reporters in January: "“I want them both to start behaving like they want to be around for 40 years," Bogdan warned. "I want them to take on some of the risk of this program. I want them to invest in cost reductions. I want them to do the things that will build a better relationship. I’m not getting all that love yet."

Have you noticed this general? This is no careerist sycophant. He looks like and sounds like the real deal.

Am I right? Am I giving him too much credit? What?

I don't know but he sure says the right things...


OK, let us examine his recent history (from his bio (http://www.af.mil/information/bios/bio.asp?bioID=11932)), his last 4 assignment were:

PEO for the new tanker during the acquisition contract award phase. During which we had the AF select a program, be protested for unethical/illegal practices, and then select another tanker. Tell me Bob, is rigging the competition in favor of an inferior aircraft a sign of integrity and not "setting himself up for a cushy, private-sector job tomorrow"? For a person who values history, you seem to not know Bogdan's.

Deputy PEO for 6 months, during which time he did what to act in the best interest of the program or AF?

Hasn't been PEO long enough to effect any change.

So, in conclusion, a single unsupported statement does not define the character of a man. I'd prefer to look at his history and actions myself. To me, the debacle of the tanker selection (over which he presided and lead) is a strong black mark against your sentiment.

Ok, as much as it pains me, I have to agree with RFD. Being a "senior military assistant" and an "executive officer" doesn't exactly mean he was the decision maker. Even being "program director" doesn't mean he made the decision to go with the tanker he was put in charge of. You are alleging that he rigged the competition. Do you have any proof of that?

As deputy exectutive officer what do you think he should have done? What did he do that was against the best interests of the AF?

So he wasn't the executive officer long enough to effect any change but you allege that he would have been able to effect change as deputy executive officer? What the hell kind of sense does THAT make?

I am not saying RFD is right in his assertation that this guy is a good guy but you sure don't make much of a case that he is wrong....

imnohero
03-11-2013, 02:13 PM
Ok, as much as it pains me, I have to agree with RFD. Being a "senior military assistant" and an "executive officer" doesn't exactly mean he was the decision maker. Even being "program director" doesn't mean he made the decision to go with the tanker he was put in charge of. You are alleging that he rigged the competition. Do you have any proof of that?

As deputy exectutive officer what do you think he should have done? What did he do that was against the best interests of the AF?

So he wasn't the executive officer long enough to effect any change but you allege that he would have been able to effect change as deputy executive officer? What the hell kind of sense does THAT make?

I am not saying RFD is right in his assertation that this guy is a good guy but you sure don't make much of a case that he is wrong....

The point is not that he did anything wrong, he very likely didn't. The point is that taken completely out of context, these facts are as damning as the single quote the Bob took out of context to praise.

I'll say it again, a single sentence does not the measure of a man take, or his character define.

Stalwart
03-11-2013, 02:28 PM
This probably wasn't the right way or place to ask the original question, since is it overwhelmingly unlikely that anyone on these forums has worked with or knows LtGen Bogdan sufficiently to comment on his decision making, character or integrity. Asking what someone thinks of him based on a quote or observations of him without being part of his ‘circle’ of either peers, immediate subordinates or friends is probably not going to net you an accurate enough answer that warrants publication.

Robert F. Dorr
03-11-2013, 05:05 PM
This probably wasn't the right way or place to ask the original question, since is it overwhelmingly unlikely that anyone on these forums has worked with or knows LtGen Bogdan sufficiently to comment on his decision making, character or integrity. Asking what someone thinks of him based on a quote or observations of him without being part of his ‘circle’ of either peers, immediate subordinates or friends is probably not going to net you an accurate enough answer that warrants publication.

You're usually right but not this time. My purpose was to find out what people who don't know him think about him, based on what they've heard.

Pullinteeth makes some good points about his significance in the tanker story. Unfortunately, what neither Pullinteeth nor Stalwart can tell me is what imnohero thinks. It remains an enigma.

imnohero
03-11-2013, 05:13 PM
"It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma..."

Pullinteeth
03-11-2013, 05:42 PM
You're usually right but not this time. My purpose was to find out what people who don't know him think about him, based on what they've heard.

Pullinteeth makes some good points about his significance in the tanker story. Unfortunately, what neither Pullinteeth nor Stalwart can tell me is what imnohero thinks. It remains an enigma.

I don't know him, have never heard of him, had no opinion until this thread. I liked his quote that you posted. I looked him up. I found it interesting but probably not particularly relevant that
23% of his career he spent as a student,
29% was as a pilot, and
49% was as a staff officer...
(I know it adds up to 101% but the percentages are rounded so...) Anyone want to bet that he collected flight pay for most of it?

Stalwart
03-11-2013, 06:13 PM
My purpose was to find out what people who don't know him think about him, based on what they've heard.

My point would be that I don't weigh much on something that is "what I have heard", especially a single or small number of quotes. Without studying the person in question, basing opinion on quotes, clips or snips of data you could think (or be driven to think) almost anything about someone.

All of the below quotes sound great in isolation and if it was all I knew about these individuals, I might think they were swell people.

"The writer is the engineer of the human soul." -- Stalin

"We think that a powerful and vigorous movement is impossible without differences — "true conformity" is possible only in the cemetery." -- Stalin

"The press must grow day in and day out" -- Stalin

"It is particularly necessary to arouse in all who participate in practical work, or are preparing to take up that work, discontent with the amateurism prevailing among us and an unshakable determination to rid ourselves of it." -- Lenin

"God the Almighty has made our nation. By defending its existence we are defending His work." -- Hitler

"If freedom is short of weapons, we must compensate with willpower." -- Hitler

Stalwart
03-11-2013, 06:38 PM
You're usually right but not this time.

And thanks. I am rarely right, I do generally strive for well-informed and honest but tactful ... generally.

WillsPowers
04-17-2013, 05:17 AM
He will be outsted in a purge Komrade. He doesn't tout the party line and his betters will soon isolate, contain and marginalize him for his political incorrectness.