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View Full Version : SERE the gender neutral standard?



JD2780
03-08-2013, 08:45 PM
Let me start off with NO. Its not. They are NOT a combat arms AFSC. They're survival instructors. They do NOT go into harms way and take the fight to the enemy. They DO NOT go into harms way and rescue downed pilots. They might assist in the planning, but they are not part of the package that goes out and gets the folks that are in trouble.

THEY ARE NOT THE GENDER NEUTRAL STANDARD.

imported_KnuckleDragger
03-08-2013, 09:09 PM
I'm not following, can you clarify some...?

Smeghead
03-08-2013, 09:09 PM
But ... but ... they got a beret. They must be BAMF battlefield Airmen.




Like cops.

Arod2012
03-08-2013, 11:49 PM
But ... but ... they got a beret. They must be BAMF battlefield Airmen.




Like cops.


this.... /thread

Rizzo77
03-09-2013, 12:08 AM
I'd like to believe that SERE could teach downed female airmen how to avoid being raped by fanatic al-Qaeda adherents, but what al-Qaeda adherent wouldn't take a shot at a US female service member?

For jikes sakes, the US military has a rape problem internally. I can't imagine that presenting the distastefulness of rape to a US servicemember will prevent the al-Qaeda bastards that already have no respect for women will follow our respect for women.

JD2780
03-09-2013, 03:02 AM
I'm not following, can you clarify some...?

In AFT they have a story talking about how SERE is the gender neutral standard.

JD2780
03-09-2013, 03:04 AM
this.... /thread

Thats fine. I'm coming from an all male AFSC. Therefore I have a vested interest in the integration of women into it. I'm not a against it, but dont compare my job to SERE. Thats what I was getting at.

BRUWIN
03-09-2013, 03:49 AM
There is a lot of physical endurance required for SERE instructor. This is probably one of the most demanding career fields there is. I think many beret types get butt hurt and try to put them down but it is my understanding they are the elite. I don't think many beret wearers will say something to a SERE instructor's face. To be honest...I think many are scared of them.

CrustySMSgt
03-09-2013, 04:09 AM
Thats fine. I'm coming from an all male AFSC. Therefore I have a vested interest in the integration of women into it. I'm not a against it, but dont compare my job to SERE. Thats what I was getting at.

No argument from me! THere is a difference between being integrated in a training scenario and in the real deal.

JD2780
03-09-2013, 11:00 AM
There is a lot of physical endurance required for SERE instructor. This is probably one of the most demanding career fields there is. I think many beret types get butt hurt and try to put them down but it is my understanding they are the elite. I don't think many beret wearers will say something to a SERE instructor's face. To be honest...I think many are scared of them.

Bru found us all out. Good work. We're also terrified of the Boy Scouts of America.

Airborne
03-09-2013, 01:42 PM
There is a lot of physical endurance required for SERE instructor. This is probably one of the most demanding career fields there is. I think many beret types get butt hurt and try to put them down but it is my understanding they are the elite. I don't think many beret wearers will say something to a SERE instructor's face. To be honest...I think many are scared of them.

It is a physically demanding career field for sure (at least to get in), but not the hardest. They are not elite, just a very specialized career field that doesnt overlap into anything like many other AFSCs and they work very close with aircrew who basically run the Air Force so they get a lot of good benefits and recognition. Not sure why they get so much funding to jump and air force riggers rarely get to jump for example.
Also you will hear a lot of them get called "SERE J's" since so many of them failed out of PJ school and a lot of them think they should be in the stack when a door is being ready to get kicked in. They do have some very good skills when it comes to survival and reintegration.

sandsjames
03-09-2013, 02:18 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/99/Itispat.jpg/200px-Itispat.jpg

"What are you trying to say?"

tiredretiredE7
03-09-2013, 02:32 PM
But ... but ... they got a beret. They must be BAMF battlefield Airmen.




Like cops.

Yes and the campaign hat makes MTIs bad@$$. Don't throw stones when you live in a glasshouse.

Rainmaker
03-09-2013, 02:38 PM
Bru found us all out. Good work. We're also terrified of the Boy Scouts of America.

Rainmaker got better survival training from the Boy Scouts then he did from SV 80 and at least they don't accept homos

Smeghead
03-09-2013, 05:01 PM
Yes and the campaign hat makes MTIs bad@$$. Don't throw stones when you live in a glasshouse.

I'm no longer an MTI, so no glass house here, dickhead. In fact this thread has nothing to do with MTIs. It's talking about SERE. They get a beret, apparently the beret is the symbol of all things badassed, that's why your tools got them right? And, MTIs are not the ones claiming to be Battlefield Airmen, so how am I throwing stones again?

http://www.moody.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123330837

Smeghead
03-09-2013, 05:04 PM
Yes and the campaign hat makes MTIs bad@$$. Don't throw stones when you live in a glasshouse.

I'm not an MTI any more, so no glass house here, dickhead. But this thread is not about MTIs, it's about SERE and their specialness. They got a beret, so they must be special and badass right? That's how your douches got one. Sec Fo!!!! And last time I checked, MTIs are not the ones claiming to be part of the Battlefield Airmen group. So how exactly am I throwing stones again?

http://www.moody.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123330837

The Cooler
03-09-2013, 05:15 PM
Rainmaker got better survival training from the Boy Scouts then he did from SV 80 and at least they don't accept homos

^pretty funny..

i think SERE is like any other careerfield that is specialized.. you get some d-bags but most of them are solid dudes. as far as the standard being gender neutral, you'd have to ask them off the record. only they would know if the females in the careerfield were ridden as hard as everyone else or eased up on by leadership because of the novelty factor. i'd probably be willing to bet though that any female SERE instructor would probably be as good or better than your average male.

The Cooler
03-09-2013, 05:37 PM
I'm not an MTI any more, so no glass house here, dickhead. But this thread is not about MTIs, it's about SERE and their specialness. They got a beret, so they must be special and badass right? That's how your douches got one. Sec Fo!!!! And last time I checked, MTIs are not the ones claiming to be part of the Battlefield Airmen group. So how exactly am I throwing stones again?

http://www.moody.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123330837

i'm so tired of the BS.. battlefield airmen is such choad terminology. who gives a sh*t what peoples jobs are as long as they do them well and contribute. if finance helps me out then they're as important as anyone. and i know finance people who've convoyed all over afghanistan supporting the mission. that's a lot more time on the battlefield then most pj's spend looking at it from above. aside from select missions do some female combat medics in the army not do the same exact missions? and let's go to the next branch.. who spends more time on the battlefield.. navy corpsmen or pj's? a job is a job is a job. the marines got it right with no special hats and patches and BS except for a few exceptions. is navy eod any better than army or air force eod because they got some extra schools? just questions for everyone to ask themselves. for you as an MTi, no one down the road will care about what kind of hat you wore.. they will remember you as the person who taught them how to be an Airman and if you did that well.

KellyinAvon
03-09-2013, 06:54 PM
Back in the day (early 2004), I was at what I think was the first planning conference for what would become known as Battlefield Airmen. I'm definitely not, nor have I ever been in that category. I was 1 of 2 MAJCOM staff weenies in a large room full of PJs, TACP, Combat Controllers, A-10 drivers and other types along those lines. There was enough testosterone in that room to produce a 50 year supply of Androgel 1.62%. This is also when we found out the Army "transformed" (Army-speak for turning 75% of their cannon-cockers into Infantry and increasing the requirement for TACP by about 500).

It started out to change the training tracks of these career fields, having everyone together for training that was common across the AFSCs, then split out for AFSC specific stuff. Why do I get the feeling it spawned a life of it's own and looks nothing like what was discussed 9 years ago?

Airborne
03-09-2013, 07:21 PM
i'm so tired of the BS.. battlefield airmen is such choad terminology. who gives a sh*t what peoples jobs are as long as they do them well and contribute. if finance helps me out then they're as important as anyone. and i know finance people who've convoyed all over afghanistan supporting the mission. that's a lot more time on the battlefield then most pj's spend looking at it from above. aside from select missions do some female combat medics in the army not do the same exact missions? and let's go to the next branch.. who spends more time on the battlefield.. navy corpsmen or pj's? a job is a job is a job. the marines got it right with no special hats and patches and BS except for a few exceptions. is navy eod any better than army or air force eod because they got some extra schools? just questions for everyone to ask themselves. for you as an MTi, no one down the road will care about what kind of hat you wore.. they will remember you as the person who taught them how to be an Airman and if you did that well.

There are some exact same missions that Army Medics and PJs do, but there are many more things that PJ doctrine says they can do. Due to necessity, PJs have been doing MEDEVAC and CASEVAC missions but thats only the tip of their iceberg. Navy Corpsmen are clinicians first, more akin to Air Force IDMTs. The ones that are on the battlefield are pipelined into it. Not sure how many of those would be female.
The battlefield airman thing is choadworthy, but it was a way for their leadership to get some funding and some say in what was going on since they were being used way more than they have been since Vietname (and more). It's easy for F-16 pilots to get what they want when you have 20 generals rated on that aircraft. When you have two O-6s to speak for the whole career field you dont have much juice.

CJSmith
03-09-2013, 07:30 PM
Green jacket, gold jacket, who gives a shit.

akruse
03-09-2013, 08:24 PM
i'm so tired of the BS.. battlefield airmen is such choad terminology. who gives a sh*t what peoples jobs are as long as they do them well and contribute. if finance helps me out then they're as important as anyone. and i know finance people who've convoyed all over afghanistan supporting the mission. that's a lot more time on the battlefield then most pj's spend looking at it from above. aside from select missions do some female combat medics in the army not do the same exact missions? and let's go to the next branch.. who spends more time on the battlefield.. navy corpsmen or pj's? a job is a job is a job. the marines got it right with no special hats and patches and BS except for a few exceptions. is navy eod any better than army or air force eod because they got some extra schools? just questions for everyone to ask themselves. for you as an MTi, no one down the road will care about what kind of hat you wore.. they will remember you as the person who taught them how to be an Airman and if you did that well.

Your understanding of the PJ career field is laughable.

The Cooler
03-10-2013, 02:08 AM
Your understanding of the PJ career field is laughable.

i don't need to have an understanding of your careerfield any greater than any other to appreciate it. but i definitely have a grasp of who on a typical day assumes the most risk. and it's usually the standard issue nothing fancy marine/army grunts. everyone else is just support including myself.

akruse
03-10-2013, 02:41 AM
i don't need to have an understanding of your careerfield any greater than any other to appreciate it. but i definitely have a grasp of who on a typical day assumes the most risk. and it's usually the standard issue nothing fancy marine/army grunts. everyone else is just support including myself.

I'm not a PJ. The good majority of PJs on the battlefield have nothing to do with helicopters unless it is putting them on the X. You are comparing a finance troop's day to day risk factors compared to your typical PJ. Got it. All I need to know.

BOSS302
03-10-2013, 02:50 AM
I'm not a PJ. You are comparing a finance troop's day to day risk factors compared to your typical PJ. Got it. All I need to know.

I do not believe you are understanding the risks that Finance "troops" face on a day-to-day basis. I heard of a Finance "troop" who accidentally spilled an extra-hot venti latte all over him when returning from the office coffee run. Do you even know the risks involved with a Finance "troop's" Facebook account when it is left unlocked and unattended because they have to help a customer at the service desk? I also once saw a Finance "troop" have to remove their ABU top in a deployed environment because the air conditioning stopped working in their office.

How dare you assume so lightly, sir.

The Cooler
03-10-2013, 05:29 AM
I'm not a PJ. The good majority of PJs on the battlefield have nothing to do with helicopters unless it is putting them on the X. You are comparing a finance troop's day to day risk factors compared to your typical PJ. Got it. All I need to know.

i'm not gonna throw any insults your way. but with what i said is that what you took away from it? my point was all careerfields are important and anyone can find themselves in pretty undesireable circumstances doing their part even if it's not common. my point was this.. the longer i stay in the more i appreciate everyone. i appreciate people who do their job well regardless of how flashy. if someone can't shoot but can take care of my family when they need it or help me out then they're as valuable as anyone. so yes the term battlefield airman irks me, because what i was trying to point out with the finance example was even they can be out talking with the locals doing their part. yes.. pj's are a class act and may bring a lot of extra skills to the table but i don't value them more than any other medics. i've derailed this topic enough.. if you reply i'll read it but won't be responding. back to gender neutral standards.

akruse
03-10-2013, 11:48 AM
i'm not gonna throw any insults your way. but with what i said is that what you took away from it? my point was all careerfields are important and anyone can find themselves in pretty undesireable circumstances doing their part even if it's not common. my point was this.. the longer i stay in the more i appreciate everyone. i appreciate people who do their job well regardless of how flashy. if someone can't shoot but can take care of my family when they need it or help me out then they're as valuable as anyone. so yes the term battlefield airman irks me, because what i was trying to point out with the finance example was even they can be out talking with the locals doing their part. yes.. pj's are a class act and may bring a lot of extra skills to the table but i don't value them more than any other medics. i've derailed this topic enough.. if you reply i'll read it but won't be responding. back to gender neutral standards.

Everyone gets a trophy. Copy.

BOSS302
03-10-2013, 11:58 AM
i'm not gonna throw any insults your way. but with what i said is that what you took away from it? my point was all careerfields are important and anyone can find themselves in pretty undesireable circumstances doing their part even if it's not common. my point was this.. the longer i stay in the more i appreciate everyone. i appreciate people who do their job well regardless of how flashy. if someone can't shoot but can take care of my family when they need it or help me out then they're as valuable as anyone. so yes the term battlefield airman irks me, because what i was trying to point out with the finance example was even they can be out talking with the locals doing their part. yes.. pj's are a class act and may bring a lot of extra skills to the table but i don't value them more than any other medics. i've derailed this topic enough.. if you reply i'll read it but won't be responding. back to gender neutral standards.

The longer you stay in, the more you should come to realize that some career fields simply do more and deserve more than others. It is not wrong and it is not an insult to other AFSC's to hold other career fields in higher esteem for what they do.

I appreciate Finance for paying me correctly every so often, but nothing they do as a career field will compare to what special operators do. I am thankful for the Civil Engineers who keep the water flowing and the electricity humming, but does it compare to the F-15 Strike Eagle driver who knocks a MiG or two out of the sky en-route to a strike mission in enemy territory (yes, last air-to-air kill was in the 90s; got it!)?

Point is that not everyone deserves a trophy or even the same amount of respect. Honestly, not everyone needs to be worrying about what the hell everyone else is doing! If Air Force career fields would start looking inward and improving their own practices and developing their own personnel to be expert technicians instead of average generalists, and STOP worrying about how big of a d*ck the other career field has, perhaps the world of the USAF would be a happier place.

sandsjames
03-10-2013, 01:17 PM
The longer you stay in, the more you should come to realize that some career fields simply do more and deserve more than others. It is not wrong and it is not an insult to other AFSC's to hold other career fields in higher esteem for what they do.

I appreciate Finance for paying me correctly every so often, but nothing they do as a career field will compare to what special operators do. I am thankful for the Civil Engineers who keep the water flowing and the electricity humming, but does it compare to the F-15 Strike Eagle driver who knocks a MiG or two out of the sky en-route to a strike mission in enemy territory (yes, last air-to-air kill was in the 90s; got it!)?

Point is that not everyone deserves a trophy or even the same amount of respect. Honestly, not everyone needs to be worrying about what the hell everyone else is doing! If Air Force career fields would start looking inward and improving their own practices and developing their own personnel to be expert technicians instead of average generalists, and STOP worrying about how big of a d*ck the other career field has, perhaps the world of the USAF would be a happier place.

Some career fields "deserve" more? Really? I'll agree that some are more directly involved in the war effort. Some are in danger more often. But they "deserve" more of what? The only thing combat related career fields deserve more of is combat medals. And that's only if they do something above and beyond their job description.

Of course not everyone deserves a trophy. Being in a combat AFSC does not change that fact. They may deserve more respect for putting their lives on the line more often (though I wouldn't say that combat pilots are doing so, especially in a world where there is no opposition Air Force). You mentioned the MiG. When's the last time one of our guys had to "knock a MiG or two out of the sky"?

JD2780
03-10-2013, 01:35 PM
We deserve more and we are given more. Special duty pay, dive pay, jump pay. None of the battlefield airmen really refer to themselves as "battlefield airmen". Thats big wigs that like using that phrase. Its dumb. Also that persons comprehension of the PJ mission and exposure is quite a bit off. There are some careerfields that get berets and I wonder why they do. Oh well not my call. Keep it real homies.

BOSS302
03-10-2013, 02:21 PM
Some career fields "deserve" more? Really? I'll agree that some are more directly involved in the war effort. Some are in danger more often. But they "deserve" more of what? The only thing combat related career fields deserve more of is combat medals. And that's only if they do something above and beyond their job description.

Of course not everyone deserves a trophy. Being in a combat AFSC does not change that fact. They may deserve more respect for putting their lives on the line more often (though I wouldn't say that combat pilots are doing so, especially in a world where there is no opposition Air Force). You mentioned the MiG. When's the last time one of our guys had to "knock a MiG or two out of the sky"?

Yes, I did mention a MiG (Mikoyan) aircraft; I also mentioned the last time the USAF had to "knock a MiG or two out of the sky". Thus I already answered the question you have asked, which leads to another question: why the hell did you bother to even ask? Everyone knows the answer already.

When is the last time you had to install a Mission Essential Power (MEP)-12 plant for a BEAR (Basic Expeditionary Airfield Resources) base? When is the last time you conducted a monthly generator run? When is the last time you rolled the MAAS out as part of an ADR (Airfield Damage Repair) team and installed it on different bases (soil vs. concrete vs. asphalt)?

I only ask these questions to you because it matters not when the "last time you did something" was, but it matters if you're prepared and trained to do that specific something when the time comes.

So no, the USAF has not had an air-to-air kill in over a decade. Does that mean an F-15 C-model pilot couldn't down a MiG-29 tomorrow if needed? Absolutely not. Just the same that you may have not laid out your MAAS in over a decade (not saying you have not), but could definitely do it if needed. USAF pilots have not faced a potent aerial enemy for many, many years; that can be attributed to US pre-emptive supremacy, the inherit weaknesses and laziness of many other aerial forces across the globe, the fact that the countries with considerable air power are our allies or docile enemies. Or all of the above, mixed together.

Yet do you slip into a lull while others are tooling up? The United States has not fought its last conventional war.

Those in the Air Force who take part in direct combat deserve exactly "more of what"? You tell me, it seems as though you have already answered your own question (again). They do get more respect, and rightly so. They do get greater media exposure and fanfare, and rightly so. They do (usually) get easier access to funding, training opportunities, etc; perhaps not rightly so but at least they are looking out for their own people, unlike some other career fields whose leaders look out only for themselves.

This debate could be avoided if, again, people did not worry about others: beret envy, flight suit envy, aeronautical badge envy, flight pay envy, jump pay envy, aircrew envy, whatever.

sandsjames
03-10-2013, 04:22 PM
Yes, I did mention a MiG (Mikoyan) aircraft; I also mentioned the last time the USAF had to "knock a MiG or two out of the sky". Thus I already answered the question you have asked, which leads to another question: why the hell did you bother to even ask? Everyone knows the answer already.

When is the last time you had to install a Mission Essential Power (MEP)-12 plant for a BEAR (Basic Expeditionary Airfield Resources) base? When is the last time you conducted a monthly generator run? When is the last time you rolled the MAAS out as part of an ADR (Airfield Damage Repair) team and installed it on different bases (soil vs. concrete vs. asphalt)?

I only ask these questions to you because it matters not when the "last time you did something" was, but it matters if you're prepared and trained to do that specific something when the time comes.

So no, the USAF has not had an air-to-air kill in over a decade. Does that mean an F-15 C-model pilot couldn't down a MiG-29 tomorrow if needed? Absolutely not. Just the same that you may have not laid out your MAAS in over a decade (not saying you have not), but could definitely do it if needed. USAF pilots have not faced a potent aerial enemy for many, many years; that can be attributed to US pre-emptive supremacy, the inherit weaknesses and laziness of many other aerial forces across the globe, the fact that the countries with considerable air power are our allies or docile enemies. Or all of the above, mixed together.

Yet do you slip into a lull while others are tooling up? The United States has not fought its last conventional war.

Those in the Air Force who take part in direct combat deserve exactly "more of what"? You tell me, it seems as though you have already answered your own question (again). They do get more respect, and rightly so. They do get greater media exposure and fanfare, and rightly so. They do (usually) get easier access to funding, training opportunities, etc; perhaps not rightly so but at least they are looking out for their own people, unlike some other career fields whose leaders look out only for themselves.

This debate could be avoided if, again, people did not worry about others: beret envy, flight suit envy, aeronautical badge envy, flight pay envy, jump pay envy, aircrew envy, whatever.

The point is that, over the last 10 years, there have been more instances of finance troops (I mention them because you did) in harms way than fighter pilots. Finance troops on convoys with the Army, outside the wire, getting shelled.

I have nothing against pilots other than most of them are arrogant douche bags, but their jobs require that they are.

I am curious to know how you know what my job is. Did you go through all my old posts or are you just a new profile of someone who's been around for awhile?

edit: Also, to answer your other question, I have never had to install a MEP 12 or MAAS, other than during exercises. A huge waste of money to be at Silver Flag every other year. I did do a monthly run the other day, though. Well, I "led a team" and "facilitated" the "extension of servicability" on equipment "supporting" several million dollars of equipment with "100% uptime".

CJSmith
03-10-2013, 04:57 PM
I am curious to know how you know what my job is. Did you go through all my old posts or are you just a new profile of someone who's been around for awhile?

Uhhh, my money is that it's an alt account.

sandsjames
03-10-2013, 05:27 PM
Uhhh, my money is that it's an alt account.

Yeah. Trying to figure out who it would be who would know that acronyms/abbreviations related to my job (unless he just looked them up).

BOSS302
03-11-2013, 03:22 AM
The point is that, over the last 10 years, there have been more instances of finance troops (I mention them because you did) in harms way than fighter pilots. Finance troops on convoys with the Army, outside the wire, getting shelled.

I have nothing against pilots other than most of them are arrogant douche bags, but their jobs require that they are.

I am curious to know how you know what my job is. Did you go through all my old posts or are you just a new profile of someone who's been around for awhile?

edit: Also, to answer your other question, I have never had to install a MEP 12 or MAAS, other than during exercises. A huge waste of money to be at Silver Flag every other year. I did do a monthly run the other day, though. Well, I "led a team" and "facilitated" the "extension of servicability" on equipment "supporting" several million dollars of equipment with "100% uptime".

You mentioned you were Power Production in the past. And yes, it is a new profile; I had an old account a long while back.

RobotChicken
03-11-2013, 03:31 AM
You mentioned you were Power Production in the past. And yes, it is a new profile; I had an old account a long while back.
:car Was it 'armoured plated too'? Like a 3/12 model...forum style...? :lock1

BOSS302
03-11-2013, 03:58 AM
:car Was it 'armoured plated too'? Like a 3/12 model...forum style...? :lock1

:couch2 .

RobotChicken
03-11-2013, 04:04 AM
:cry Diapers no doubt for the 'auspuf'. :hurt