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Chief_KO
03-08-2013, 01:07 PM
Looks like the Army and Marine Corps are suspending tuition assistance till the budget gets fixed...will the AF follow suit?

crwchf16
03-08-2013, 01:11 PM
The tuition assistance program is one of the few things that works and gives real returns. I hope Big Blue is smart enough to leave it alone

imported_KnuckleDragger
03-08-2013, 01:23 PM
The tuition assistance program is one of the few things that works and gives real returns. I hope Big Blue is smart enough to leave it alone

With that logic, it will be gone tomorrow. You will have to reimburse any TA used for the FY.

Drackore
03-08-2013, 01:24 PM
I hope so too, crwchf16, but you know Big Blue - if the Army is going to do it, we will follow suit.

And still demand people get their CCAF.

CrustySMSgt
03-08-2013, 02:21 PM
Just got an email on the subject... any information being circulated is predecisional and there has been no decision yet. But it is being discussed and given all the cuts and people being furloghed, and the fact that you can still use your GI bill, I'd sign up for classes NOW if you want TA.

Tough times...

JD2780
03-08-2013, 02:23 PM
my wife lucked out, shes starting a class next week, all signed up just in time and class is paid for

sandsjames
03-08-2013, 02:26 PM
This is a smart move. Since we are supposed to be cutting anything that is not mission critical/essential, TA should go. As useful as it may be, pursuing a degree is not critical to any part of any mission. I know there are many who take full advantage of it (as one should) but a degree does not improve any aspect of defending the country. As annoying as they are, the only courses the military should be paying for are military related.

And now I'm curious as to what all the leeching spouses are going to do with their free time if Uncle Sam stops paying to put them through school.

JD2780
03-08-2013, 02:31 PM
This is a smart move. Since we are supposed to be cutting anything that is not mission critical/essential, TA should go. As useful as it may be, pursuing a degree is not critical to any part of any mission. I know there are many who take full advantage of it (as one should) but a degree does not improve any aspect of defending the country. As annoying as they are, the only courses the military should be paying for are military related.

And now I'm curious as to what all the leeching spouses are going to do with their free time if Uncle Sam stops paying to put them through school.

They are military related if youre using them to get your ccaf to get that SRE. Here is an idea, remove the requirement and give the SRE based on performance or military related tasks. Not, hey good you're a professional student.

BOSS302
03-08-2013, 02:41 PM
I make full-use of Tuition Assistance, having just recently signed up for two more classes for Spring Session II and having TA already approved (thankfully). I would hate to see Tuition Assistance be suspended either permanently or temporarily. I also wish that our Congressional "leaders" would do their jobs and pass a sensible budget; I wish that our military leaders would not treat the money they are allocated like it's an "all you can eat" at the China Star buffet.

While Tuition Assistance is indeed a perk of military service and not a must of military service, I believe that if the government and the military were better stewards of taxpayer dollars, there would not have to be any effect on programs that impact personnel.

imported_DannyJ
03-08-2013, 02:44 PM
Already know this topic is real touchy. I say get rid of it...

http://www.militarytimes.com/forum/showthread.php?1595346-Tuition-Assistance-amp-The-Budget

BOSS302
03-08-2013, 03:00 PM
Already know this topic is real touchy. I say get rid of it...

http://www.militarytimes.com/forum/showthread.php?1595346-Tuition-Assistance-amp-The-Budget

I must admit I didn't go through ten pages of that thread discussion. Maybe the following argument was already debated or put to rest, but if Tuition Assistance really MUST go, then so be it. At the end of the day, the Air Force pays you to do your job, not be a professional student. However, I believe that a more stringent and mature fiscal responsibility could avoid having to cull personnel programs such as Tuition Assistance.

Sperry1989
03-08-2013, 03:09 PM
This is a smart move. Since we are supposed to be cutting anything that is not mission critical/essential, TA should go. As useful as it may be, pursuing a degree is not critical to any part of any mission. I know there are many who take full advantage of it (as one should) but a degree does not improve any aspect of defending the country. As annoying as they are, the only courses the military should be paying for are military related.

And now I'm curious as to what all the leeching spouses are going to do with their free time if Uncle Sam stops paying to put them through school.

Sands,

There is a rumor going around that Squadron Officer School and NCO Academy seats will be reduced for the remaining FY13 calendar. Everyone is awaiting clarification from the A1 to see if these reductions will in fact take place. I support suspending TA for the remaining FY if the rumors are true.

How can we pay for civilian education when we are cutting back on professional military education (PME)? Whether you are a supporter of military education or not, it sends the wrong signal to support TA over PME.

SomeRandomGuy
03-08-2013, 03:16 PM
Sands,

There is a rumor going around that Squadron Officer School and NCO Academy seats will be reduced for the remaining FY13 calendar. Everyone is awaiting clarification from the A1 to see if these reductions will in fact take place. I support suspending TA for the remaining FY if the rumors are true.

How can we pay for civilian education when we are cutting back on professional military education (PME)? Whether you are a supporter of military education or not, it sends the wrong signal to support TA over PME.

That is not a rumor at all. There is a Memo out from the Undersecretary of Defense (dated Feb 28 2013) On page 3 it addresses Education and Training. Here is what it says:

Education and Training (POC: AF/A1)

Education and training guidance:
All HQ AF leadership development courses scheduled tlu·ough April 2013 will be
cancelled with exceptions for courses with non-recoverable tuition. HQ AF/A1 will
evaluate subsequent classes on a monthly basis and assess the impact on our Total Force
officer, enlisted, and civilian Airmen.

Third quatter attendance at short-term TDY professional military education (PME), e.g.,
SOS, CAL T, NCO Academies will be reduced. Specific guidance will be provided by
AF/A1.
The AF will support DoD and Joint education and training consistent w/OSD guidance.
The following education and training is considered mission critical and will continue under
sequestration:

Long-term professional military education (military and civilian attendance), all precommand
training and CSAF mandated training, initial skills training, pre-deployment
expeditionary skill training, and functional skills training as required by law.

Sergeant eNYgma
03-08-2013, 03:34 PM
We got some info on this today as well. I can better deal with TA going away or being reduced if the same is done for SRE requirements for Senior and Chief. If they still want CCAF's for those ranks and eliminate TA that's a foul imo.

CJSmith
03-08-2013, 03:38 PM
Pheeew, just got my TA approved for my final two classes I need for my bachelors.

Brewhound
03-08-2013, 03:59 PM
Me too I only need 3 more classes to get my degree done. But we will still send Officers out to get thier 9th Masters degree on the Goverment dime......Great thinking Air Force

SotaPop
03-08-2013, 04:28 PM
Looks like the Army and Marine Corps are suspending tuition assistance till the budget gets fixed...will the AF follow suit?

TA will be cut not eliminated ;)

Rainmaker
03-08-2013, 04:28 PM
Rainmaker not sure what he finds more disturbing. The Hypocrisy of the DoD perfumed princes calling for cuts to our Military personnel and pay and benefits ( while at the same time they're paying over $200 Billion a year in Service Contracts) or the Military personnel on here constantly rogering up to take it in the ass, so a that a bunch of industry fat cat contractors and Political appointee General Officers can continue to get paid.

Rainmaker
03-08-2013, 04:31 PM
TA will be cut not eliminated ;)

Good to know. That must've been what they decided on at the golf course during their annual winter vacation to Corona a couple weeks ago.

CrustySMSgt
03-08-2013, 04:49 PM
TA will be cut not eliminated ;)

Ya, great way to spin it.... BTW, the "cut" is 100%

FLAPS
03-08-2013, 04:51 PM
Me too I only need 3 more classes to get my degree done. But we will still send Officers out to get thier 9th Masters degree on the Goverment dime......Great thinking Air Force

Care to elaborate?

TA paid for MOST of my Masters. The AF will not pay for another one for me.

sandsjames
03-08-2013, 04:53 PM
They are military related if youre using them to get your ccaf to get that SRE. Here is an idea, remove the requirement and give the SRE based on performance or military related tasks. Not, hey good you're a professional student.

To a point, yes. However, it would be more realistic to earning an SRE if getting the education was actually something someone had to go "above and beyond" for. I don't like any of the education stuff being related to promotion but, if it's going to be there, having it be something that you can do on government time with government money does NOT make it above and beyond. Kind of like doing a bake sale fundraiser during duty hours should not be looked at as a volunteer item.

As you said, it is related to SRE but SRE is not related to execution of the mission.

imported_DannyJ
03-08-2013, 05:02 PM
We got some info on this today as well. I can better deal with TA going away or being reduced if the same is done for SRE requirements for Senior and Chief. If they still want CCAF's for those ranks and eliminate TA that's a foul imo.

How's that? You can make your 20 years for retirement without making SMSgt or CMSgt. You can get almost all the credits for your CCAF via basic, tech school, your CDCs, ALS, and NCOA. What's left ain't all that hard to CLEP.

Now, if the AF said you had to have your CCAF to make TSgt (which is required to do 20), then I'd call foul, but until that is the scenario, whatever.

sandsjames
03-08-2013, 05:22 PM
How's that? You can make your 20 years for retirement without making SMSgt or CMSgt. You can get almost all the credits for your CCAF via basic, tech school, your CDCs, ALS, and NCOA. What's left ain't all that hard to CLEP.

Now, if the AF said you had to have your CCAF to make TSgt (which is required to do 20), then I'd call foul, but until that is the scenario, whatever.

Agree. The problem is that stripe handouts have become so common that they are now expected, which means people feel that the military should provide everything they need to make Chief. That's not the way it works. E-8 and E-9 are positions that require people to somehow differentiate themselves from their peers. If that means that a guy has to go out and spend out of pocket to get that degree to get the SRE (which isn't ACTUALLY a requirement, even though we know different) then that is what needs to happen.

It all goes back to the evaluation system we currently have telling most that they exceed the standards. It's simply not true. I believe a system that actually rewarded those who actually put the work, time, and personal sacrifice in in order to make Senior and Chief would be a much better system. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that education is the system that should be used for that but reality makes it that way.

If one doesn't have the drive to use their own time/money to get the degree (or whatever item is used as a way to set people apart) and believe the military owes it to them then they are not E8/E9 material. Plain and simple.

SomeRandomGuy
03-08-2013, 05:31 PM
Agree. The problem is that stripe handouts have become so common that they are now expected, which means people feel that the military should provide everything they need to make Chief. That's not the way it works. E-8 and E-9 are positions that require people to somehow differentiate themselves from their peers. If that means that a guy has to go out and spend out of pocket to get that degree to get the SRE (which isn't ACTUALLY a requirement, even though we know different) then that is what needs to happen.

It all goes back to the evaluation system we currently have telling most that they exceed the standards. It's simply not true. I believe a system that actually rewarded those who actually put the work, time, and personal sacrifice in in order to make Senior and Chief would be a much better system. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that education is the system that should be used for that but reality makes it that way.

If one doesn't have the drive to use their own time/money to get the degree (or whatever item is used as a way to set people apart) and believe the military owes it to them then they are not E8/E9 material. Plain and simple.

This reminds me of something. Can anyone older than me (I am 28) elaborate on when the "everybody gets a trophy" epidemic began in society? I remember recieving a trophy every year I played soccer as a kid. One year I even recieved a trophy for last place. Even worse than this, I played in a few leagues where all the trophies were the same size. The only difference was the plaque on the front which had a tiny inscription. In a lot of ways I think the "everybody gets a trophy" mentality has completely ruined my generation. We grew up expecting to always win regardless of how much effort we put in. We came through grade school and high school where teachers were not allowed to fail us. Now some of the people from my generation expect to be awarded everything their parents have without ever doing any work to earn it. When can we admit that all people are not created equal?

sandsjames
03-08-2013, 05:38 PM
This reminds me of something. Can anyone older than me (I am 28) elaborate on when the "everybody gets a trophy" epidemic began in society? I remember recieving a trophy every year I played soccer as a kid. One year I even recieved a trophy for last place. Even worse than this, I played in a few leagues where all the trophies were the same size. The only difference was the plaque on the front which had a tiny inscription. In a lot of ways I think the "everybody gets a trophy" mentality has completely ruined my generation. We grew up expecting to always win regardless of how much effort we put in. We came through grade school and high school where teachers were not allowed to fail us. Now some of the people from my generation expect to be awarded everything their parents have without ever doing any work to earn it. When can we admit that all people are not created equal?

As far as I can remember, it started in the late 80s/early to mid 90s. I remember in Little League/Senior League baseball (would have been from 1984 to 1989ish) the only team that got trophies was the first place team. Then the All-Star team players recieved pins and, of course, the semi-retarded kid always got the sportsmanship trophy. My step son was playing soccer in the mid to late 90s and EVERY kid got the trophy. My wife and I were actually looking through a box yesterday and found one of our son's track and field trophies from 1998. It was for 5th place. Thaaaat's right. 5th. So somewhere in that time frame.

imported_Sgt HULK
03-08-2013, 05:43 PM
And now I'm curious as to what all the leeching spouses are going to do with their free time if Uncle Sam stops paying to put them through school.

I was unaware that spouses could use active duty TA is this something new? or just more spouse hate?

grimreaper
03-08-2013, 05:46 PM
Agree. The problem is that stripe handouts have become so common that they are now expected, which means people feel that the military should provide everything they need to make Chief. That's not the way it works. E-8 and E-9 are positions that require people to somehow differentiate themselves from their peers. If that means that a guy has to go out and spend out of pocket to get that degree to get the SRE (which isn't ACTUALLY a requirement, even though we know different) then that is what needs to happen.

It all goes back to the evaluation system we currently have telling most that they exceed the standards. It's simply not true. I believe a system that actually rewarded those who actually put the work, time, and personal sacrifice in in order to make Senior and Chief would be a much better system. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that education is the system that should be used for that but reality makes it that way.

If one doesn't have the drive to use their own time/money to get the degree (or whatever item is used as a way to set people apart) and believe the military owes it to them then they are not E8/E9 material. Plain and simple.

All true, and in the end, people still have the GI Bill, which I think was already mentioned. Use it.

imported_Sgt HULK
03-08-2013, 05:49 PM
This reminds me of something. Can anyone older than me (I am 28) elaborate on when the "everybody gets a trophy" epidemic began in society? I remember recieving a trophy every year I played soccer as a kid. One year I even recieved a trophy for last place. Even worse than this, I played in a few leagues where all the trophies were the same size. The only difference was the plaque on the front which had a tiny inscription. In a lot of ways I think the "everybody gets a trophy" mentality has completely ruined my generation. We grew up expecting to always win regardless of how much effort we put in. We came through grade school and high school where teachers were not allowed to fail us. Now some of the people from my generation expect to be awarded everything their parents have without ever doing any work to earn it. When can we admit that all people are not created equal?

around the mid 90's I grew up playing sports in the 80's and early 90's and I played on some god awful teams that didnt get shit but better luck next year, no 10 run rule, faster clock in teh 2nd half or anything we lost and lost bad its called building character lol

sandsjames
03-08-2013, 05:59 PM
I was unaware that spouses could use active duty TA is this something new? or just more spouse hate?

There is a spouses TA. I would hope that if they cut AD TA they would also cut the spouses TA.

imported_Sgt HULK
03-08-2013, 06:03 PM
Never once head of spouses TA, aside from that BS program about 3 years back that ran out of money right away. There was also STAP for spouses over seas but they had to attend a school that accepted it and it was only 50% anyway

sandsjames
03-08-2013, 06:11 PM
"Only 50%"? Again, why would the military pay anything for this? It's not a requirement to command sponsor a spouse. The spouse is not being forced to go overseas.

There is also MyCAA.

Don't even get me started on States (like California) paying up to 100% for dependents of vets with a zero disability rating (which anybody can easily get). We aren't special. Our kids aren't special. Put them on a level playing field and let them complete with the rest of the state/country for scholarships and grants.

imported_Sgt HULK
03-08-2013, 07:43 PM
"Only 50%"? Again, why would the military pay anything for this? It's not a requirement to command sponsor a spouse. The spouse is not being forced to go overseas.

There is also MyCAA.

Don't even get me started on States (like California) paying up to 100% for dependents of vets with a zero disability rating (which anybody can easily get). We aren't special. Our kids aren't special. Put them on a level playing field and let them complete with the rest of the state/country for scholarships and grants.

You must have had/have a miserable career and little self worth.

I happen to think much like most of this country that my fellow brothers in arms are special.

reaon being because as I have said many times over, these less than 1% of society dedicated a portion of their lives in defense of this country while the rest chose or did not. That to me is more special than any running back, swimmer, pop star or diva on MTV.

The kids that are forced to change schools, lose friends, constantly move, the spouses who forgo a career and a stable life in support. Spare me the hater you shouldnt get married bullshit.

The guys sitting next to me are special so are their families, in a time of war they said fuck it lets do this. In return the country they fight for has said we will give your familiy a little something as they endure the same bullshit you go through.

a more educated society is a better society. Is it not? is a land of dumbasses more beneficial to you then a land of educated people rgardless of how they acheived it?

So yes, my kids and wife, my troops kids and wives and my bosses kids and wives are in fact more special then they familiy across the street who chose not to sacrifice anything for this country.

spare me any and all lame comebacks about your opinion of the war on terror etc. the fact that at any moment we can be sent off for death affords anyone of our kids a states right to give them some TA

Maybe you are one of those im to proud for this shit im a no body yahoo and thats fine.

i take pride in knowing that I have and will complete something that less than 1% of society will ever do, and the kids I supervise do the same. To me yes they are special individuals

You have a lot to learn

sandsjames
03-08-2013, 08:29 PM
You must have had/have a miserable career and little self worth. Not really. I enjoyed the first 18 years a lot. Not so much the last 2.


I happen to think much like most of this country that my fellow brothers in arms are special.

reaon being because as I have said many times over, these less than 1% of society dedicated a portion of their lives in defense of this country while the rest chose or did not. Actually that 1% number is quite deceiving. It's much higher than that. The 1% is how many are in at any one time. It's doesn't factor the percentage of those who were in and no longer are.


That to me is more special than any running back, swimmer, pop star or diva on MTV
I don't think the spouses or children of any of these people should receive special benefits either.


The kids that are forced to change schools, lose friends, constantly move, the spouses who forgo a career and a stable life in support. And they know this is going to happen when they join. The kids gain far more knowledge from traveling to different schools/countries. Is it difficult? Of course. Do they "deserve" special treatment? Well, in today's "gimme" society, I suppose they do.


Spare me the hater you shouldnt get married bullshit. Not saying this at all. You just shouldn't expect any special benefits for the non-military members of the family.


The guys sitting next to me are special so are their families, in a time of war they said fuck it lets do this. In return the country they fight for has said we will give your familiy a little something as they endure the same bullshit you go through. They have a little something. They have a house to live in, an education for their children, and a steady paycheck.


a more educated society is a better society. Is it not? is a land of dumbasses more beneficial to you then a land of educated people rgardless of how they acheived it? Of course a more educated society is better. I agree with you here. There are other members of society other than military and dependents.


So yes, my kids and wife, my troops kids and wives and my bosses kids and wives are in fact more special then they familiy across the street who chose not to sacrifice anything for this country. Whatever helps you sleep at night.


spare me any and all lame comebacks about your opinion of the war on terror etc. I don't have any comebacks. And this isn't just related to the WoT. It's every war.


the fact that at any moment we can be sent off for death affords anyone of our kids a states right to give them some TA The State does have the right to do so. I just think it's not a smart thing to do. I know several civilians who work in dangerous jobs. There's a threat of death every day when they go to work. Are their kids deserving of the same treatment?


Maybe you are one of those im to proud for this shit im a no body yahoo and thats fine. Not too proud for this shit at all. But my wife isn't deserving of it.


i take pride in knowing that I have and will complete something that less than 1% of society will ever do, and the kids I supervise do the same. To me yes they are special individuals Again with the less than 1%.


You have a lot to learnAs do you. In fact, I would keep TA around specifically for people like you. Your spelling and grammar are horrific. Punctuation is nonexistent. It looks like something an 11 year old might have texted. The government should pay for you to take an English class several times over.

JD2780
03-08-2013, 08:42 PM
Not really. I enjoyed the first 18 years a lot. Not so much the last 2.

Actually that 1% number is quite deceiving. It's much higher than that. The 1% is how many are in at any one time. It's doesn't factor the percentage of those who were in and no longer are.

I don't think the spouses or children of any of these people should receive special benefits either.

And they know this is going to happen when they join. The kids gain far more knowledge from traveling to different schools/countries. Is it difficult? Of course. Do they "deserve" special treatment? Well, in today's "gimme" society, I suppose they do.

Not saying this at all. You just shouldn't expect any special benefits for the non-military members of the family.

They have a little something. They have a house to live in, an education for their children, and a steady paycheck.

Of course a more educated society is better. I agree with you here. There are other members of society other than military and dependents.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

I don't have any comebacks. And this isn't just related to the WoT. It's every war.

The State does have the right to do so. I just think it's not a smart thing to do. I know several civilians who work in dangerous jobs. There's a threat of death every day when they go to work. Are their kids deserving of the same treatment?

Not too proud for this shit at all. But my wife isn't deserving of it.

Again with the less than 1%.

As do you. In fact, I would keep TA around specifically for people like you. Your spelling and grammar are horrific. Punctuation is nonexistent. It looks like something an 11 year old might have texted. The government should pay for you to take an English class several times over.

WOW you had a decent thing going then decided to act like a kid be the grammar police in an internet forum. STFU & GFY TTY

mikezulu1
03-08-2013, 08:44 PM
so can anyone tell me how much they estimate this will save DoD wide? how much is the cost of a SINGLE f-22 again
($350million)? Good thing we have those since we've been at war for the past decade now, and that 1 TRILLION dollar program has contributed so much to the fight. Why are top leaders so quick to cut people and benifits and not the wasteful pie in the sky fucking star wars fighter programs? When was the last air-to-air kill again?

JD2780
03-08-2013, 08:51 PM
so can anyone tell me how much they estimate this will save DoD wide? how much is the cost of a SINGLE f-22 again
($350million)? Good thing we have those since we've been at war for the past decade now, and that 1 TRILLION dollar program has contributed so much to the fight. Why are top leaders so quick to cut people and benifits and not the wasteful pie in the sky fucking star wars fighter programs? When was the last air-to-air kill again?

either 91 or in Kosovo. I know there were a bunch in 91, but I'm pretty sure of some in Kosovo

sandsjames
03-08-2013, 09:01 PM
WOW you had a decent thing going then decided to act like a kid be the grammar police in an internet forum. STFU & GFY TTY

I would have been good if he would have left these two statements out:


You must have had/have a miserable career and little self worth.


You have a lot to learn

If he wants to speak to me like I'm a child then I will return the favor.

JD2780
03-08-2013, 09:56 PM
I would have been good if he would have left these two statements out:





If he wants to speak to me like I'm a child then I will return the favor.

IDK, i still think you can EAD and GFY. TTY GF

ILU

sandsjames
03-08-2013, 10:03 PM
IDK, i still think you can EAD and GFY. TTY GF

ILU

EAD and F myself at the same time? I've seen that movie.

MACHINE666
03-08-2013, 10:03 PM
How many people wish they could buy bacon with their TA money, instead?


Mmmm....bacon......


:D :D :D :D :D

RobotChicken
03-08-2013, 10:09 PM
:hungry Now you 'made' a 'BLT' come to the attention of MY stomach!! Thanks 'Machine666'!! :lol:lock1

imported_KnuckleDragger
03-08-2013, 10:15 PM
You don't need TA.

Every member gets BAS. Bacon Allowance Stipend.

Rizzo77
03-08-2013, 10:34 PM
It all comes down to officers versus Enlisted. The enlisted get screwed (loss of TA); will officer "professional development (schooling)" also get cut? I'm not holding my breath.

Capt Alfredo
03-08-2013, 11:51 PM
It all comes down to officers versus Enlisted. The enlisted get screwed (loss of TA); will officer "professional development (schooling)" also get cut? I'm not holding my breath.

Officers use TA plenty. I got my Masters via TA. Most officers I know used TA to get their Masters. Masters degrees are quite helpful to get promoted to Major. However, those degrees are pretty useless otherwise...looking at you, AMU.

sandsjames
03-09-2013, 12:12 AM
Officers use TA plenty. I got my Masters via TA. Most officers I know used TA to get their Masters. Masters degrees are quite helpful to get promoted to Major. However, those degrees are pretty useless otherwise...looking at you, AMU.

You're right. They are pretty useless. As I'm sure you know, over 53% of college graduates under the age of 30 are either unemployed or doing something that doesn't require a degree. Of course, that's a bachelors, not a masters. I'm sure there are gazillions of jobs for people with Master's.

Rizzo77
03-09-2013, 12:55 AM
Officers use TA plenty. I got my Masters via TA. Most officers I know used TA to get their Masters. Masters degrees are quite helpful to get promoted to Major. However, those degrees are pretty useless otherwise...looking at you, AMU.

Well, if AMU is useless, it seems like the end of TA is a good thing. I wouldn't want TA to pay for officers to earn a pretty useless degree.

The enlisted folks that only wish to better themselves through education, whether it is AMU or any other distance learning institution are the ones that are really disadvantaged.

Gotta keep the enlisted man down; who else will make the coffee and take out the trash?

Badger
03-09-2013, 12:55 AM
Boom! Got my TA application in today and got an approval back within a few hours. This will be the last one I'll need for my Master's degree.

I'm patting myself on the back for my impeccable timing.

Capt Alfredo
03-09-2013, 01:29 AM
Well, if AMU is useless, it seems like the end of TA is a good thing. I wouldn't want TA to pay for officers to earn a pretty useless degree.

The enlisted folks that only wish to better themselves through education, whether it is AMU or any other distance learning institution are the ones that are really disadvantaged.

Gotta keep the enlisted man down; who else will make the coffee and take out the trash?

Not sure what your point is here. I am an AMU graduate and the degree, while regionally-accredited, was pretty much a joke. When I was enlisted, I used TA and went to school (brick and mortar) full time. I went in person, not because I thought distance learning was inferior (though it is), but because this was in the early 90s and we were still on dial-up internet at best and fraud, waste, and abuse mills like AMU did not really exist, though I suppose you could argue that Regents College was out there giving you credit for your Sally Struthers Toaster Repair training. That aside, you actually had to go to the library and find books. You know, those paper things with bindings that Bob likes to hawk. Typewriters to write your papers? Yep. I definitely got my money's worth and somehow no one kept me down. I never made any coffee, either. I have, however, taken out plenty of trash as an officer. In fact, I've taken out more trash as an officer than I did when I was enlisted. But I digress.

KellyinAvon
03-09-2013, 01:33 AM
Boom! Got my TA application in today and got an approval back within a few hours. This will be the last one I'll need for my Master's degree.

I'm patting myself on the back for my impeccable timing.

I heard (many years ago) officers picked up a service commitment for using TA? Thing of the past or am I having senior moment?

Rizzo77
03-09-2013, 01:59 AM
I have, however, taken out plenty of trash as an officer. In fact, I've taken out more trash as an officer than I did when I was enlisted. But I digress.

The point is that if you "earned" a Master's Degree from AMU, and you're still taking out the trash, then the TA was wasted on you and the distance learning education. That TA is now no longer available to officers, good. That is now not available to enlisted persons, though, is another unfavorable victim of the sequestration.

Rizzo77
03-09-2013, 02:04 AM
Most officers I knew used extra TA money to get Richard enlargements...
To get on par with enlisteds.

I heard that most failed; they couldn't take the pain.

DDGX300
03-09-2013, 02:29 AM
Tuition assistance is a great deal. With all the stuff that is about to happen it is not central to the Air Force mission and should be stopped. Anything less would be irresponsible, tough choices have to be made. You still have the GI Bill, it does basically the same thing. Use it. I remember when TA was 75% I thought that was an amazing deal. When they went 100% I knew that wouldn't last forever. We are cutting back, we have to to accomplish our mission.

Quixotic
03-09-2013, 02:43 AM
I joined, and re-enlisted, in large part because of the benefits of service.

The minute you take away my TA, or any other benefit that was part of the deal, is the minute I cease to be a mission hacker and become a pay check collector.

sandsjames
03-09-2013, 03:10 AM
I joined, and re-enlisted, in large part because of the benefits of service.

The minute you take away my TA, or any other benefit that was part of the deal, is the minute I cease to be a mission hacker and become a pay check collector.

And this is why education should not be used to help justify a "5".

root
03-09-2013, 03:29 AM
I joined, and re-enlisted, in large part because of the benefits of service.

The minute you take away my TA, or any other benefit that was part of the deal, is the minute I cease to be a mission hacker and become a pay check collector.Wow. Bought easily I see.

imported_Sgt HULK
03-09-2013, 03:45 AM
Not really. I enjoyed the first 18 years a lot. Not so much the last 2.

Actually that 1% number is quite deceiving. It's much higher than that. The 1% is how many are in at any one time. It's doesn't factor the percentage of those who were in and no longer are.

I don't think the spouses or children of any of these people should receive special benefits either.

And they know this is going to happen when they join. The kids gain far more knowledge from traveling to different schools/countries. Is it difficult? Of course. Do they "deserve" special treatment? Well, in today's "gimme" society, I suppose they do.

Not saying this at all. You just shouldn't expect any special benefits for the non-military members of the family.

They have a little something. They have a house to live in, an education for their children, and a steady paycheck.

Of course a more educated society is better. I agree with you here. There are other members of society other than military and dependents.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

I don't have any comebacks. And this isn't just related to the WoT. It's every war.

The State does have the right to do so. I just think it's not a smart thing to do. I know several civilians who work in dangerous jobs. There's a threat of death every day when they go to work. Are their kids deserving of the same treatment?

Not too proud for this shit at all. But my wife isn't deserving of it.

Again with the less than 1%.

As do you. In fact, I would keep TA around specifically for people like you. Your spelling and grammar are horrific. Punctuation is nonexistent. It looks like something an 11 year old might have texted. The government should pay for you to take an English class several times over.


so your only come back is the fact that I typed on an iphone while riding an exercise bike and you resort to insulting grammar and text. You resorted to childish insults when you got backed into a corner. Essentially point proven. when you have nothing left resort to insults and name calling. such a shame that your career is a gigantic disappointment so you feel the need to bring everyone else down. Glad to see you set a good example lol

Rizzo77
03-09-2013, 04:00 AM
so your only come back is the fact that I typed on an iphone while riding an exercise bike and you resort to insulting grammar and text. You resorted to childish insults when you got backed into a corner. Essentially point proven. when you have nothing left resort to insults and name calling. such a shame that your career is a gigantic disappointment so you feel the need to bring everyone else down. Glad to see you set a good example lol

C'mon Hulk, really? Try this:

#1 Don't post from an exercise bike on your phone.

#2 Don't be offended when your posting structure is criticized, because it sucks.

It may be difficult to accept, particularly in the world of facebook, twitter, and SMS shorthand, but well thought out and posted arguments might be more convincing then "FU2".

sandsjames
03-09-2013, 04:03 AM
so your only come back is the fact that I typed on an iphone while riding an exercise bike and you resort to insulting grammar and text. You resorted to childish insults when you got backed into a corner. Essentially point proven. when you have nothing left resort to insults and name calling. such a shame that your career is a gigantic disappointment so you feel the need to bring everyone else down. Glad to see you set a good example lol

Yes, that was my ONLY retort. Never mind the facts and other points that I threw out as well. Those weren't pertinent to the conversation. Nevermind that you were insulting first. It's a shame that, out of 13 lines, the only one you refer to is the last one. That's ok.

Badger
03-09-2013, 05:09 AM
I heard (many years ago) officers picked up a service commitment for using TA? Thing of the past or am I having senior moment?

I'm pretty sure it's two years from the end of each academic term.

CrustySMSgt
03-09-2013, 05:13 AM
Understand this is an emotional issue... but in the grand scheme of things, we're not taking money out of our Airmen's pockets, food out of their mouths, or shelter from over their heads. Our civilian teammates and ARC ART folks are taking a 20% pay cut, so let's keep things in perspective.

VFFTSGT
03-09-2013, 05:58 AM
so can anyone tell me how much they estimate this will save DoD wide? how much is the cost of a SINGLE f-22 again
($350million)? Good thing we have those since we've been at war for the past decade now, and that 1 TRILLION dollar program has contributed so much to the fight. Why are top leaders so quick to cut people and benifits and not the wasteful pie in the sky fucking star wars fighter programs? When was the last air-to-air kill again?

Someone said it good in another thread, it's about causing drama...which translates to votes. It's a created "emergency" for politicians/party to come in and save the day to get more votes.

How much money would we save if we stopped the national building today? Not tomorrow, next week, or next year....but today.


Understand this is an emotional issue... but in the grand scheme of things, we're not taking money out of our Airmen's pockets, food out of their mouths, or shelter from over their heads. Our civilian teammates and ARC ART folks are taking a 20% pay cut, so let's keep things in perspective.

True statement. No one thinks they are more entitled to everything on a silver platter than military members who on average perform an average job at an average quality.

I won't miss it.

Quixotic
03-09-2013, 06:10 AM
If I loose any pay or benefits over the political ineptitude that brought us to this point, I can assure you, myself (and many others based on conversations I've had) will be done caring about 'the mission.'

CrustySMSgt
03-09-2013, 07:39 AM
If I loose any pay or benefits over the political ineptitude that brought us to this point, I can assure you, myself (and many others based on conversations I've had) will be done caring about 'the mission.'

Do what you gotta do... but last time I checked, we've still got it much better than a lot of folks outside the wire. Best of luck to you!

MACHINE666
03-09-2013, 11:04 AM
Okay freaks and geeks, settle down...

What needs to happen is a bunch of us vets and retirees need to get a game plan going to protest on Capitol Hill. While they can make an example out of our active duty brethren, they can't do shit to us for fighting the good fight. Let's formulate a strategy and make it happen!

jshiver15
03-09-2013, 12:11 PM
This reminds me of something. Can anyone older than me (I am 28) elaborate on when the "everybody gets a trophy" epidemic began in society? I remember recieving a trophy every year I played soccer as a kid. One year I even recieved a trophy for last place. Even worse than this, I played in a few leagues where all the trophies were the same size. The only difference was the plaque on the front which had a tiny inscription. In a lot of ways I think the "everybody gets a trophy" mentality has completely ruined my generation. We grew up expecting to always win regardless of how much effort we put in. We came through grade school and high school where teachers were not allowed to fail us. Now some of the people from my generation expect to be awarded everything their parents have without ever doing any work to earn it. When can we admit that all people are not created equal?

I'm also 28 and I don't remember getting a trophy for everything. Honestly, I remember being 10 and our coach not throwing an end of the season pizza party because we didn't make the playoffs. I don't know if it was because I was an Air Force brat and coaches were super competitive (I know my Dad was and he coached a majority of my basketball teams growing up) or maybe I got lucky.

technomage1
03-09-2013, 01:05 PM
As crappy as losing TA is or might be (currently depending on branch), our civilians are taking a 20% pay cut, and the last I heard they're not bing paid back for it at a later date. Losing TA is nothing compared to that.

KellyinAvon
03-09-2013, 01:21 PM
I'm also 28 and I don't remember getting a trophy for everything. Honestly, I remember being 10 and our coach not throwing an end of the season pizza party because we didn't make the playoffs. I don't know if it was because I was an Air Force brat and coaches were super competitive (I know my Dad was and he coached a majority of my basketball teams growing up) or maybe I got lucky.

Hi, Kelly in Avon here: I coached Little League 8 years and my sons played a total of 10 years. I wanted to get that out in front before pointing out your coach was an a$$hole who nobody wanted to eat with anyway. Trophies for everyone and no after season pizza for a team of 10-year olds not making the playoffs isn't comparing apples to apples; it's comparing ice cream to Tuesday.

MACHINE666
03-09-2013, 01:56 PM
As crappy as losing TA is or might be (currently depending on branch), our civilians are taking a 20% pay cut, and the last I heard they're not bing paid back for it at a later date. Losing TA is nothing compared to that.

Yes, I will be one of the people who will be getting his paycheck cut by 20%, however that still doesn't make it right that they're cutting TA.

All the while, people like Shaniqua, Jo Beth, and Hector continue to recieve welfare entitlements, by simply sitting on their asses and doing nothing....

Airborne
03-09-2013, 02:33 PM
Yes, I will be one of the people who will be getting his paycheck cut by 20%, however that still doesn't make it right that they're cutting TA.

All the while, people like Shaniqua, Jo Beth, and Hector continue to recieve welfare entitlements, by simply sitting on their asses and doing nothing....

Apple, Mcdonalds, and ComCast receive way more welfare entitlements than the poor, but welfare checks to the poor are low hanging fruit. Im sure you put Jo Beth in there just to make sure no one thought you were racist.

I hope TA does go away so we can stop the rediculousness of the CCAF. Theres already talk about when youve gotten it, not just having it. Did you have it by the time your first MSgt EPR was written? No? Mark down on the front and no SRE. So units are already pressuring TSgts to get it. Do you have your CCAF as a TSgt? No? Mark down on the front. I dont know very many people who have stepped inside of a brick and mortar classroom in years, and we're selling AMU to our people like its freaking Harvard. It's gotta stop.

sandsjames
03-09-2013, 02:38 PM
Yes, I will be one of the people who will be getting his paycheck cut by 20%, however that still doesn't make it right that they're cutting TA.

All the while, people like Shaniqua, Jo Beth, and Hector continue to recieve welfare entitlements, by simply sitting on their asses and doing nothing....

Agree to a point, but I'm not sure why it always has to be one or the other we talk about fixing. It ALL needs to come into play. We ALL need to sacrifice in order to have a remote chance of fixing things. So, the welfare needs to be fixed, but so does military spending. Everything non mission essential needs to go away for now. That includes the "little" things like TA, unneeded training/TDY's, end of year overspending, cleaning contractors, certain fighter programs, DV visits, SAVs, duplicate inspections, etc. It ALL has to be on the table.

Now, as far as TA goes, they don't have to cut it completely. Since the claim is that the CCAF is "necessary", they can allow TA through completion of the CCAF. Once the CCAF is complete, you're on your own. A bachelors/masters in no way relates to the mission (the CCAF doesn't either but, as many have said, it's an unwritten "requirement"). So, once the CCAF is done, the TA is done.

CrustySMSgt
03-09-2013, 03:01 PM
Now, as far as TA goes, they don't have to cut it completely. Since the claim is that the CCAF is "necessary", they can allow TA through completion of the CCAF. Once the CCAF is complete, you're on your own. A bachelors/masters in no way relates to the mission (the CCAF doesn't either but, as many have said, it's an unwritten "requirement"). So, once the CCAF is done, the TA is done.

I've heard that option is one of the COAs being discussed.

Chief_KO
03-09-2013, 03:01 PM
Time to call the baby ugly. Why is it that one of our great employer benefits (tuition assistance) can so easily be taken away by our employer (Congress/DoD/USAF)? Because we (overwhelming majority) do not actively do the two things to get our voices heard.
1: Vote (National/State/Local level). I can buy not voting at the state/local level if you no longer physically live there or have only lived there for a short time. BUT, WTF is your excuse for not voting for who will represent you in Congress, or who will lead you as your Commander In Chief???
2: Membership in a professional (lobbying) organization. That's what orgs like AFSA, the American Legion, the VFW do for you. Fight (lobby) to sustain our current benefits and fight (lobby) for improved or new benefits.

It is NOT the mission of the DoD or the services to provide benefits to their employees and their families. These come as result of the actions of those professional orgs when they lobby Congress on our behalf. Congress in turn passes a law, then the DoD and the services must enact (put in place) what the law directs. But when AFSA has only 100K or so active members total (including retirees), it is very obvious that the mass majority (200K+) of active duty, guard, reserve Airmen could care less about their benefits.

Get off your a$$, get your Airmen off their a$$es join one (or more) of these orgs that are there to fight for you! Will you see results on Monday morning, no. But, we need to start being involved in the process, not just sitting back at bitching about getting screwed again.

Chief_KO
03-09-2013, 03:05 PM
For those who never learned history:
http://www.npr.org/2011/11/11/142224795/the-bonus-army-how-a-protest-led-to-the-gi-bill

sandsjames
03-09-2013, 03:06 PM
They better not take away the commissary for retirees :-)And lose the 5% surcharge on EVERY SINGLE ITEM? No chance.

Airborne
03-09-2013, 03:17 PM
I know your glasses arent that rose colored. Sounds like the guy that comes to ALS and NCOA to sell AFSA memberships. We tout how we are the "1%", which means politicians can get away with not having our vote. Most smart people know that if the politicians all the way down to the wing king want to take something away, it will be done. A bunch of enlisted pukes on capitol hill arent going to bring the bowling alley back, save my TA, make the CDC reasonable, or increase property values outside of the gate. Im sure you will post a link saying otherwise, but our spending has been irresponsible.
Every other war in our history has been paid for with the draft, rationing, raised taxes, war bonds, etc. Our last one and a half wars were fought with tax cuts for the middle class and for the rich. Interest rates have lowered. No draft, no war bonds, no rationing, no tax hikes. We are now paying for it. TSgts and Majors that have been in since right around 9-11 have a skewed vision of how things are supposed to be. We are not and should not be entitled to things like TA.

technomage1
03-09-2013, 03:28 PM
I still don't know why anyone would value a CCAF nowadays when it possible to get a real degree online now from reputable schools. And no, I'm not talking about AMU or Ashford. I'm talking Penn state, USC: established, top ranked, reputable schools.

The CCAF had its time and place, but its no longer the unconnected world in which the CCAF was born. There are options now.

I have yet to figure out why on earth my masters degree coursework in my field counts for less than a CCAF with the AF.

FLAPS
03-09-2013, 04:13 PM
I have yet to figure out why on earth my masters degree coursework in my field counts for less than a CCAF with the AF.

Because the day you're allowed to fill the SRE square with a non-CCAF Associates (or higher) is the day CCAF can no longer justify its own existance.

Capt Alfredo
03-09-2013, 04:18 PM
I heard (many years ago) officers picked up a service commitment for using TA? Thing of the past or am I having senior moment?

Still the case.

Quixotic
03-10-2013, 02:52 AM
Instead of taking the meat cleaver approach to TA...

1. Drop coverage down to 75%, immediately. This will help cut the serious from the non-serious in the herd and reduce wasted spending.

2. Maintain TA for CCAFs, it's required for 9-level in some career fields and some college always looks better than no college. At the very least, it shows personal initiative, which can be hard to find through other means.

3. Stop accepting new applicants for other than CCAF degrees and let those with current degree plans finish them, and then cut them off. This will draw down TA expenditures in a responsible way and avoid the hate and discontent that will result from individuals having the TA carpet ripped out from under them.

FLAPS
03-10-2013, 12:00 PM
Maintain TA for CCAFs, it's required for 9-level in some career fields and some college always looks better than no college. At the very least, it shows personal initiative, which can be hard to find through other means.

I agree that if a CCAF is REQUIRED, then at least pay for some of it, if there's a cost. That said, if it's possible to CLEP/DANTES all ed requirements (not sure it is these days), then why pay TA at all? Are those tests free?

sandsjames
03-10-2013, 12:39 PM
Instead of taking the meat cleaver approach to TA...

1. Drop coverage down to 75%, immediately. This will help cut the serious from the non-serious in the herd and reduce wasted spending.

2. Maintain TA for CCAFs, it's required for 9-level in some career fields and some college always looks better than no college. At the very least, it shows personal initiative, which can be hard to find through other means.

3. Stop accepting new applicants for other than CCAF degrees and let those with current degree plans finish them, and then cut them off. This will draw down TA expenditures in a responsible way and avoid the hate and discontent that will result from individuals having the TA carpet ripped out from under them.

I think this is fair. Possibly even down to 50%. Again, personally I think 0% is good, but 50-75% is a good compromise, with those other factors added. Just as with retirement, the impact on people currently receiving what they were "promised" when signing the last contract seems fair.

BOSS302
03-10-2013, 12:42 PM
I think this is fair. Possibly even down to 50%. Again, personally I think 0% is good, but 50-75% is a good compromise, with those other factors added. Just as with retirement, the impact on people currently receiving what they were "promised" when signing the last contract seems fair.

While I do support Tuition Assistance, even in the face of colorful comments left along with negative rep, I don't support this argument. Tuition Assistance was not promised when I first enlisted nor was such a promise made in my subsequent re-enlistments. I stress again that fiscal responsibility, practicality, and maturity by both military and civilian leaders in government would have kept us from having to cull programs that directly tie-in to personnel.

CJSmith
03-10-2013, 01:12 PM
I'm so glad my care meter is nonexistent with TA staying or going. It's probably that way because I took advantage of it when it was available and got my shit done. And I still kicked ass at my job.

sandsjames
03-10-2013, 02:03 PM
I stress again that fiscal responsibility, practicality, and maturity by both military and civilian leaders in government would have kept us from having to cull programs that directly tie-in to personnel. It would have, but it didn't happen. We need to quit talking about what COULD have been done and start doing what NEEDS to be done.

And, by the way, I put "promised" in quotes for the very reason that it wasn't actually a promise but was something that was offered when people currently in signed their last contract. I realize there's a difference.

grimreaper
03-10-2013, 07:12 PM
It would have, but it didn't happen. We need to quit talking about what COULD have been done and start doing what NEEDS to be done.

And, by the way, I put "promised" in quotes for the very reason that it wasn't actually a promise but was something that was offered when people currently in signed their last contract. I realize there's a difference.

Hmmmm... golf outings with Tiger Woods and birthday parties with Adele and Beyonce.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2290937/MoS-Diary-Adele-lands-biggest-gig-Michelle-Obamas-50th-birthday-party.html

How much TA would these things cover?

Pueblo
03-10-2013, 07:56 PM
They are military related if youre using them to get your ccaf to get that SRE. Here is an idea, remove the requirement and give the SRE based on performance or military related tasks. Not, hey good you're a professional student.

This is why I don't think any cuts in TA will last very long. The Air Force wouldn't have the slightest idea who to promote without it.

sandsjames
03-10-2013, 08:03 PM
This is why I don't think any cuts in TA will last very long. The Air Force wouldn't have the slightest idea who to promote without it.

Well, they've still got PT scores. They could promoted the guy with a 98 over a guy with a 97 (unofficially, of course).

I don't think the cuts will last very long either. I wonder if they would ever get to the point of using TA like an enlistment/reenlistment bonus. Only give it to the critically manned AFSC's.

technomage1
03-10-2013, 08:06 PM
Well, they've still got PT scores. They could promoted the guy with a 98 over a guy with a 97 (unofficially, of course).

I don't think the cuts will last very long either. I wonder if they would ever get to the point of using TA like an enlistment/reenlistment bonus. Only give it to the critically manned AFSC's.


And don't forget the guy who sold more coins for the top III than anyone else. Or the BBQ guy.

sandsjames
03-10-2013, 08:13 PM
And don't forget the guy who sold more coins for the top III than anyone else. Or the BBQ guy.

I've heard you don't want to be the MSgt at the top III BBQ who overcooks the burgers. Career suicide.

technomage1
03-10-2013, 08:27 PM
I've heard you don't want to be the MSgt at the top III BBQ who overcooks the burgers. Career suicide.

Oh, you may as well just pack it in that afternoon.

El Kabong
03-10-2013, 11:01 PM
I've heard you don't want to be the MSgt at the top III BBQ who overcooks the burgers. Career suicide.

that stays with you like a felony. can't even bbq at home after this.

imported_chipotleboy
03-11-2013, 01:30 PM
either 91 or in Kosovo. I know there were a bunch in 91, but I'm pretty sure of some in Kosovo

JD2780, you're right, there were a couple in ALLIED FORCE. They were AMRAAM kills. The pilot was paraded around the factory afterwards to tell the workers what a great job they did for the war effort.

grimreaper
03-12-2013, 02:06 AM
Well, TA was officailly suspended today. Thought there would be more people weighing in.

Jamethon
03-12-2013, 02:14 AM
Well, TA was officailly suspended today. Thought there would be more people weighing in.

Where is this news coming from? I've heard the rumors but I haven't seen anything.

imported_KnuckleDragger
03-12-2013, 02:23 AM
Well, TA was officailly suspended today. Thought there would be more people weighing in.

Haven't heard. Any more details?

Airborne
03-12-2013, 02:57 AM
Well, TA was officailly suspended today. Thought there would be more people weighing in.

Citation needed.

grimreaper
03-12-2013, 03:39 AM
Where is this news coming from? I've heard the rumors but I haven't seen anything.

Email came from base education office. They said that TA requests already in the queue would be processed, but no more TA requests are being accepted in AFVEC.

bcoco14
03-12-2013, 04:04 AM
I'll confirm. I had enrolled to tap out my TA for this FY and due to a glitch in the system from my school I had to wait for a suspense to clear. I just tried to put in my TA request and I got a message saying TA was suspended.

VFFTSGT
03-12-2013, 04:50 AM
Reinstate Military Tuition Assistance (TA) and block the Armed Service Branches from any further suspension of TA.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/reinstate-military-tuition-assistance-ta-and-block-armed-service-branches-any-further-suspension-ta/kSyVdySm

CJSmith
03-12-2013, 06:35 AM
Reinstate Military Tuition Assistance (TA) and block the Armed Service Branches from any further suspension of TA.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/reinstate-military-tuition-assistance-ta-and-block-armed-service-branches-any-further-suspension-ta/kSyVdySm

Those petitions are like the debt ceiling. They keep raising the limit till it suits them. It wasn't that long ago it used to be 25K sigs needed for a response.

tiredretiredE7
03-12-2013, 10:21 AM
Citation needed.


http://www.stripes.com/news/air-force-joins-army-marines-in-cutting-tuition-assistance-1.211417

And as a reminder, those AD who voted for Obama, voted for these cuts. Obama could have stopped these from happening by simply working with the Republicans to stop sequester. Sequester was this administrations idea and was debated during the presidential debates where Obama promised "the sequester will not happen" so people were informed. This administration's focus during the sequester negotiations was cutting the military while the Republicans focused on welfare support programs.

JD2780
03-12-2013, 10:57 AM
JD2780, you're right, there were a couple in ALLIED FORCE. They were AMRAAM kills. The pilot was paraded around the factory afterwards to tell the workers what a great job they did for the war effort.

Cool. 9 in 91 and between 15-17 during allied force. Watched lots of it on TV. That pilot probably felt like the biggest tool.

sandsjames
03-12-2013, 12:38 PM
http://www.stripes.com/news/air-force-joins-army-marines-in-cutting-tuition-assistance-1.211417

And as a reminder, those AD who voted for Obama, voted for these cuts. Obama could have stopped these from happening by simply working with the Republicans to stop sequester. Sequester was this administrations idea and was debated during the presidential debates where Obama promised "the sequester will not happen" so people were informed. This administration's focus during the sequester negotiations was cutting the military while the Republicans focused on welfare support programs.

Not only did Obama promise it wouldn't happen. RFD also guaranteed that it wouldn't happen. If I can't trust a promise from Bob I don't know who I can trust.

SotaPop
03-12-2013, 12:41 PM
Because the day you're allowed to fill the SRE square with a non-CCAF Associates (or higher) is the day CCAF can no longer justify its own existance.

This is not a CCAF policy. It was never asked for by anyone at CCAF and in fact is more of a hinderance to CCAF than anything else. Just think about how many 20+ year MSgts think the world should stop because their EPR is closing out and they want that SRE. And they all know a Chief who thinks that because they are a Chief the work should stop and rules should be broken or there is a waiver for everything.

CCAF is full of hard working individuals from different AFSCs throughout the Air Force who spend their day quantifying how Air Force training exceeds civilian training standards. That is until someone thinks they should stop what they are doing because they waited 20 years.

sandsjames
03-12-2013, 12:53 PM
So now people who want to go "above and beyond" to earn a "5" EPR actually have to make some personal sacrifice? Effort isn't supposed to be a part of advancement.

Sergeant eNYgma
03-12-2013, 01:59 PM
We got the email about them not approving anymore as well. A friend of mine is leaning toward getting out now since education was his main goal for coming in. Couple other people finishing degrees are pissed as well. I can understand but sacrifices must be made. Hopefully they are made in MANY areas of our budget not just military...

Class5Kayaker
03-12-2013, 02:01 PM
Well, TA was officailly suspended today. Thought there would be more people weighing in.


Where is this news coming from? I've heard the rumors but I haven't seen anything.



I can confirm. Official memo signed 11 Mar by the VCSAF and Undersecretary AF listed 100% suspension of TA (You're good to go if you already had it approved) along with a slew of other stuff.


Due to the current fiscal challenges, Military Tuition Assistance (TA) is suspended effective immediately. The suspension applies to all Active Duty and Reserve Airmen and will remain in effect during the current fiscal situation. Airmen will no longer be permitted to submit new requests for Tuition Assistance through the AF Virtual Education Center nor the AF Automated Education Management System. Airmen currently enrolled with an approved tuition assistance form are not affected and will be allowed to complete current course enrollment(s). Airmen can continue to access their GI Bill benefits, either the Montgomery GI Bill (MGIB) or the Post 9/11 GI Bill as applicable, or use another funding source (i.e. grants, scholarships, or state Tuition Assistance for the Air National Guard). Airmen are encouraged to contact their local education center for additional information. Updated information will be posted on the AF Virtual Education Center website located on the AF Portal.

JD2780
03-12-2013, 02:03 PM
We got the email about them not approving anymore as well. A friend of mine is leaning toward getting out now since education was his main goal for coming in. Couple other people finishing degrees are pissed as well. I can understand but sacrifices must be made. Hopefully they are made in MANY areas of our budget not just military...

Why are folks so pissed? They still have the GI Bill.

technomage1
03-12-2013, 02:05 PM
We got the email about them not approving anymore as well. A friend of mine is leaning toward getting out now since education was his main goal for coming in. Couple other people finishing degrees are pissed as well. I can understand but sacrifices must be made. Hopefully they are made in MANY areas of our budget not just military...

I'm not fond of the TA being suspended at all, but why doesn't he just use his GI Bill? It's not like there aren't other opportunities, is all I'm saying.

And if he didn't keep it in Basic he's a fool. Sorry to be harsh but that's just a fact. I've never heard of anyone who opted out of the GI bill that didn't regret it.

JD2780
03-12-2013, 02:07 PM
I'm not fond of the TA being suspended at all, but why doesn't he just use his GI Bill? It's not like there aren't other opportunities, is all I'm saying.

And if he didn't keep it in Basic he's a fool. Sorry to be harsh but that's just a fact. I've never heard of anyone who opted out of the GI bill that didn't regret it.

BAM!!!! What this guy said!!

imported_KnuckleDragger
03-12-2013, 02:15 PM
I'm not fond of the TA being suspended at all, but why doesn't he just use his GI Bill? It's not like there aren't other opportunities, is all I'm saying.

And if he didn't keep it in Basic he's a fool. Sorry to be harsh but that's just a fact. I've never heard of anyone who opted out of the GI bill that didn't regret it.

We had a good run with TA. Use GI Bill.

AIRborne184
03-12-2013, 02:20 PM
You are a freaking moron. Keep those kind of comments to yourself dumb xxx. God willing you will have a leeching spouses of your own and they will screw you for all of your money.

ConfusedAirman
03-12-2013, 02:30 PM
Fellow Airmen,

As you know, our Nation and our Air Force are working through some significant fiscal challenges. The combined effects of continuing resolution and sequestration are forcing some very tough decisions. Unfortunately we'll likely be forced to furlough nearly 180,000 civilian Airmen for 16 hours per pay period for the remainder of the fiscal year starting in April. This is one of many impacts on your units and our Airmen and Families. Given this environment we've had to make the decision to suspend military Tuition Assistance (TA) for the remainder of this fiscal year.

Effective 1700 EST, 11 March, Active Duty Airmen will no longer be able to submit requests for Tuition Assistance.

Believe me, this was a tough decision because our Air Force truly values education. This is evidenced by our requirement for a Community College of the Air Force (CCAF) degree for senior rater endorsement (SRE) eligibility. SRE means a great deal in the promotion of Master Sergeant to Senior Master Sergeant, and this will not change. We understand suspension of TA benefits makes things tougher, but there are other ways for Airmen to complete CCAF degrees. CLEP exams, the G.I. Bill, scholarships, and federal grants are some options.

We remain as committed as ever to ensuring Airmen have the opportunity and means to pursue educational goals. We're still looking at the impacts for FY14 and will do our best to have TA reinstated, although we'll likely need to review the eligibility requirements to ensure sustainability. We owe you more information on this and will provide details as soon as we can.


Thank you for your service to our Nation.

v/r

jac

JAMES A. CODY
Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force

E-mail received today.

Jamethon
03-12-2013, 02:31 PM
http://www.stripes.com/news/air-force-joins-army-marines-in-cutting-tuition-assistance-1.211417

And as a reminder, those AD who voted for Obama, voted for these cuts. Obama could have stopped these from happening by simply working with the Republicans to stop sequester. Sequester was this administrations idea and was debated during the presidential debates where Obama promised "the sequester will not happen" so people were informed. This administration's focus during the sequester negotiations was cutting the military while the Republicans focused on welfare support programs.


This is the biggest toolbag answer I have ever read. "By simply working with the republicans to stop the sequester." The sequester wasn't just the administration's idea. Stop making up stuff and find facts.

*Warning* I am not an Obama supporter, just a supporter of FACTS.

Sergeant eNYgma
03-12-2013, 02:35 PM
Why are folks so pissed? They still have the GI Bill.

That is true, maybe they had plans for the GI Bill already. My friend will prolly use his when out (He was getting tired of the AF as a whole anyway) don't know about others...I wanted to take advantage of the dependant transfer myself and hope that doesn't go belly up in the future.

imported_KnuckleDragger
03-12-2013, 02:39 PM
You are a freaking moron. Keep those kind of comments to yourself dumb xxx. God willing you will have a leeching spouses of your own and they will screw you for all of your money.

Are you talking to me? The AF isn't gonna protect anyone from an evil spouse.

Sergeant eNYgma
03-12-2013, 02:40 PM
I'm not fond of the TA being suspended at all, but why doesn't he just use his GI Bill? It's not like there aren't other opportunities, is all I'm saying.

And if he didn't keep it in Basic he's a fool. Sorry to be harsh but that's just a fact. I've never heard of anyone who opted out of the GI bill that didn't regret it.

Trust me I understand but he did keep his. I kept mine though I hate school (Figured it'd be needed sometime regardless). I don't know many people who didn't opt into it.

tiredretiredE7
03-12-2013, 02:56 PM
This is the biggest toolbag answer I have ever read. "By simply working with the republicans to stop the sequester." The sequester wasn't just the administration's idea. Stop making up stuff and find facts.

*Warning* I am not an Obama supporter, just a supporter of FACTS.

This administration has repeatedly admitted to the sequester idea originating out of the Whitehouse. This is a fact. How about you get a clue before making yourself look even more incompetent to comment on this topic? Your facts are clearly WRONG. Here are two of many articles on the origin of the sequester.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/53523

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2013/03/03/white-house-admits-third-time-president-obama-fibbed-on-sequester/

CrustySMSgt
03-12-2013, 03:05 PM
And as a reminder, those AD who voted, voted for these cuts. Our elected representatives could have stopped these from happening by simply working with each other to stop sequester.

Fixed it for you.

There is plenty of buffoonery by all parties involved.

Sergeant eNYgma
03-12-2013, 03:09 PM
Fixed it for you.

There is plenty of buffoonery by all parties involved.

There is plenty to go around but our CIC wanted the job...he takes the good and bad that go along with it...we already know congress is full of shit so that's not a news flash at all.

Drackore
03-12-2013, 03:14 PM
Here are the facts: Democrats love spending money on people they shouldn't be spending money on. They feel they are fighting for the poor and downtrodden by giving them other people's money and all they are doing is keeping them poor and downtrodden. Give a man a fish, ring a bell? They are against drug testing for welfare, does that tell you something?

Republicans are against spending money on the poor by taking it from the rich. The rich, they say, create the jobs! Sure they do - in fucking China and India! Republicans are also against this kind of blind spending. They want spending reduced without raising taxes.

The White House and Obama came up with the Sequestration idea. That is locked up. No debating that.

So Obama came up with the idea as a scare tactic. The Republicans sat back and said "Duh, ok...works for us". Now reports are coming out that Obama said "Make these sequestration cuts hurt as much as possible!"

And so they are.

The big problem with Sequestration is that the people responsible for the mess we are in are allowed to decide where to cut. As far as DOD cuts are concerned, why are we letting the same bloated management corps that has been the biggest cause of fraud, waste, and abuse decide where to make the cuts? Duh! How many Generals are trimming their staffers, aides, and perks? We saw just last week that a whole slew of worthless conferences carried out as normal in the military. My unit is still doing an exercise followed up by the most worthless form of field training ever in existence at the cost of thousands in generator and vehicle fuel.

Our government still lacks the balls to tell this host nation government that it needs to rewrite the contracts for all the host nation employees we hired so they can also be subjected to these cutbacks. Right now only American employees are feeling the pain while the host nation employees are kicking back, overpaid and underworked and completely protected. In this particular country, if they start to feel "stressed" they can go to their doctor and get several months (not exaggerating here) PAID leave to "rest and recover". WTF?!?!

Albert Einstein: "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it."

And next election, I'll bet most of you tools will reelect some if not all of your "party's" representatives. You all sit there and thump your Democrat or Republican chests, failing to realize it is both parties' fault and they will NEVER change unless suddenly all the incumbents start getting voted out.

tiredretiredE7
03-12-2013, 03:19 PM
Fixed it for you.

There is plenty of buffoonery by all parties involved.

I would normally agree with this comment but the House Republicans with bi-partisan support have previously submitted a budget for the two previous years which would have prevented the sequester in the first place. Harry Reid refused to bring these two budgets to the Senate floor for a vote. Obama failed to put Harry Reid in check so in essence made Harry Reid more powerful than Obama as far as the budget problem is concerned. So the Democrats do have more than their fair share of blame for the sequester. The sequester was this administration’s idea and Obama signed it into law. Obama also refused additional power to control how the sequester was implemented. The Democrats failure to pass a budget for 4 years brought the whole sequester to a vote. Yes, it is true the Republicans could have done more but it was the Republicans who caved last time to the Democrats.

This is all very old news as far the next battle over the Continuing Resolution is concerned. I normally do not post Foxnews links but this article is non-partisan and factual. The two main issues are Republicans want to stop funding Obamacare and Obama wants to give more money to domestic programs and reduce the money for the DoD part of the budget.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/03/12/senate-democrats-unveil-bipartisan-backed-government-funding-bill/?test=latestnews

My guess is the house Republicans will cave in last minute on Obama's wishes.

Pullinteeth
03-12-2013, 03:24 PM
And why was sequester even an issue? Because the Senate hasn't passed a budget in three YEARS. In 2011, the sequester was a compromise to try to FORCE people to play nice... How did that work out again? Oh yeah, when the deadline passed, so they put it off longer. The debt ceiling became an issue...kicked that can down the road...became an issue again...Republicans folded and allowed taxes to go up without any spending cuts... Sequester deadline came up again...Republicans refused to raise taxes again without spending cuts...Democrats refused to consider spending cuts... Both said "I'm going on vacation." Sequester was triggered and the political games continue. The White House claims they can't afford security for tours but can afford to throw parties for celebs... The Cherry Blossom festival is exempt from sequester...??? The Democrats say that sequester hurts the poor and the old (Medicare and Social Security are exempt). The Republicans say sequester hurts the national defense (half the cuts come out of the DoD budget)... Both sides blame the other....both sides claim to hate sequester but I have to think that secretly, they love it. The budget gets cut and not one Congressman has to admit for voting to cut a thing. The Democrats can blame the Republicans for everything and the Republicans can blame the Democrats for everything...

Jamethon
03-12-2013, 03:31 PM
This administration has repeatedly admitted to the sequester idea originating out of the Whitehouse. This is a fact. How about you get a clue before making yourself look even more incompetent to comment on this topic? Your facts are clearly WRONG. Here are two of many articles on the origin of the sequester.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/53523

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2013/03/03/white-house-admits-third-time-president-obama-fibbed-on-sequester/

You lost all credibility by using back door political websites and Fox News. I can pull you plenty of websites that place the blame solely on the Republican party.

Pullinteeth
03-12-2013, 03:48 PM
You lost all credibility by using back door political websites and Fox News. I can pull you plenty of websites that place the blame solely on the Republican party.

Well here you go then...the rags don't get much more liberal than the Washington Post and even THEY say it was Obama's idea;

To determine the question of ownership, we turned to Washington Post reporter Bob Woodward’s new book The Price of Politics.

Woodward’s reporting shows clearly that defense sequestration was an idea that came out of Obama’s White House. But the intention was to force Republicans to negotiate, not to actually put the cuts into effect.

Woodward summarizes the thoughts of the Obama team: "There would be no chance the Republicans would want to pull the trigger and allow the sequester to force massive cuts to Defense." Democrats, meanwhile, didn’t want to see their favorite domestic programs cut.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/oct/24/barack-obama/obama-says-congress-owns-sequestration-cuts/

Surprise, surprise...it was meant to be a political ploy to get the Republicans to cave like they usually do...how did that work out again?

mikezulu1
03-12-2013, 03:59 PM
Here are the facts: Democrats love spending money on people they shouldn't be spending money on. They feel they are fighting for the poor and downtrodden by giving them other people's money and all they are doing is keeping them poor and downtrodden. Give a man a fish, ring a bell? They are against drug testing for welfare, does that tell you something?

Republicans are against spending money on the poor by taking it from the rich. The rich, they say, create the jobs! Sure they do - in fucking China and India! Republicans are also against this kind of blind spending. They want spending reduced without raising taxes.

The White House and Obama came up with the Sequestration idea. That is locked up. No debating that.

So Obama came up with the idea as a scare tactic. The Republicans sat back and said "Duh, ok...works for us". Now reports are coming out that Obama said "Make these sequestration cuts hurt as much as possible!"

And so they are.

The big problem with Sequestration is that the people responsible for the mess we are in are allowed to decide where to cut. As far as DOD cuts are concerned, why are we letting the same bloated management corps that has been the biggest cause of fraud, waste, and abuse decide where to make the cuts? Duh! How many Generals are trimming their staffers, aides, and perks? We saw just last week that a whole slew of worthless conferences carried out as normal in the military. My unit is still doing an exercise followed up by the most worthless form of field training ever in existence at the cost of thousands in generator and vehicle fuel.

Our government still lacks the balls to tell this host nation government that it needs to rewrite the contracts for all the host nation employees we hired so they can also be subjected to these cutbacks. Right now only American employees are feeling the pain while the host nation employees are kicking back, overpaid and underworked and completely protected. In this particular country, if they start to feel "stressed" they can go to their doctor and get several months (not exaggerating here) PAID leave to "rest and recover". WTF?!?!

Albert Einstein: "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it."

And next election, I'll bet most of you tools will reelect some if not all of your "party's" representatives. You all sit there and thump your Democrat or Republican chests, failing to realize it is both parties' fault and they will NEVER change unless suddenly all the incumbents start getting voted out.

This sums it up perfectly. I dont understand how a bunch of Ivy Leauge educated businessmen and lawyers cant come to some sort of compromise. We cant even balance a checkbook. By the way how much of our foriegn aid are we cutting?

Class5Kayaker
03-12-2013, 04:02 PM
By the way how much of our foriegn aid are we cutting?

THIS ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ is an excellent rhetorical question!!

Jamethon
03-12-2013, 04:10 PM
Well here you go then...the rags don't get much more liberal than the Washington Post and even THEY say it was Obama's idea;

To determine the question of ownership, we turned to Washington Post reporter Bob Woodward’s new book The Price of Politics.

Woodward’s reporting shows clearly that defense sequestration was an idea that came out of Obama’s White House. But the intention was to force Republicans to negotiate, not to actually put the cuts into effect.

Woodward summarizes the thoughts of the Obama team: "There would be no chance the Republicans would want to pull the trigger and allow the sequester to force massive cuts to Defense." Democrats, meanwhile, didn’t want to see their favorite domestic programs cut.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/oct/24/barack-obama/obama-says-congress-owns-sequestration-cuts/

Surprise, surprise...it was meant to be a political ploy to get the Republicans to cave like they usually do...how did that work out again?

Sorry, yes the IDEA came from Obama but it was agreed by the Republican Party as well.

From the same website. http://www.politifact.com/georgia/article/2013/feb/22/politifacts-guide-sequestration/

So saying this is his fault is a bit of a stretch. That's like your dad telling you that you are grounded and your mom enforcing the inability for you to watch TV. But you only hate your dad for grounding you.

tiredretiredE7
03-12-2013, 04:11 PM
Well here you go then...the rags don't get much more liberal than the Washington Post and even THEY say it was Obama's idea;

To determine the question of ownership, we turned to Washington Post reporter Bob Woodward’s new book The Price of Politics.

Woodward’s reporting shows clearly that defense sequestration was an idea that came out of Obama’s White House. But the intention was to force Republicans to negotiate, not to actually put the cuts into effect.

Woodward summarizes the thoughts of the Obama team: "There would be no chance the Republicans would want to pull the trigger and allow the sequester to force massive cuts to Defense." Democrats, meanwhile, didn’t want to see their favorite domestic programs cut.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/oct/24/barack-obama/obama-says-congress-owns-sequestration-cuts/

Surprise, surprise...it was meant to be a political ploy to get the Republicans to cave like they usually do...how did that work out again?

Great points but Jamethon will not admit he is wrong and ofcourse would never admit to voting for Obama. I am glad Jamethon posted his comments because these demonstrate the current Democratic belief of what the problem is and still will not accept FACTS if the FACTS are against the guy who is responsible for the TA cuts. Most AD Democrats will to admit to voting for Obama or they will say something really dumb like "I did not vote". Elections have consequences and any AD who voted for Obama voted for these cuts. These same people will complain the loudest once the cuts the military retirement system come up again.

Jamethon
03-12-2013, 04:19 PM
Great points but Jamethon will not admit he is wrong and ofcourse would never admit to voting for Obama. I am glad Jamethon posted his comments because these demonstrate the current Democratic belief of what the problem is and still will not accept FACTS if the FACTS are against the guy who is responsible for the TA cuts. Most AD Democrats will to admit to voting for Obama or they will say something really dumb like "I did not vote". Elections have consequences and any AD who voted for Obama voted for these cuts. These same people will complain the loudest once the cuts the military retirement system come up again.

Lol, I won't admit that I voted for Obama because I didn't. I also wouldn't call it a fact that the "guy" responsible for everything is Obama. I will admit that Obama DID come up with the sequester. But what you are failing to realize is that it was agreed upon by the republicans. I am a registered independent and support neither party. I think they both have no idea what they are doing and are running this country into the ground. But the place the blame solely on the president is ignorant.

Pullinteeth
03-12-2013, 04:37 PM
This administration has repeatedly admitted to the sequester idea originating out of the Whitehouse. This is a fact. How about you get a clue before making yourself look even more incompetent to comment on this topic? Your facts are clearly WRONG. Here are two of many articles on the origin of the sequester.


You lost all credibility by using back door political websites and Fox News. I can pull you plenty of websites that place the blame solely on the Republican party.


Sorry, yes the IDEA came from Obama but it was agreed by the Republican Party as well.

From the same website. http://www.politifact.com/georgia/article/2013/feb/22/politifacts-guide-sequestration/

So saying this is his fault is a bit of a stretch. That's like your dad telling you that you are grounded and your mom enforcing the inability for you to watch TV. But you only hate your dad for grounding you.

So then you admit you were wrong when you tried to take tiredretired to task for simply stating it was Obama's idea?

No...not even close. It would be like if your dad said if you didn't earn enough to pay for college by the time you were a Junior, you wouldn't be going to college. If your mom said that if you didn't earn enough to pay for college or get a scholarship to pay for college you couldn't go... If your dad then prevented you from getting a job or applying for a scholarship and you didn't get any $$ for school and were told you couldn't go. Yes, your mom agreed but the idea was your dad's and most of the fault would lie with him....

wmx013
03-12-2013, 04:41 PM
The TA thing really sucks. When I signed up 17 years ago, TA (among other scholarship/commissioning opportunities) was by far the largest selling point to me. I stuck around for better reasons but I can't imagine this will help recruiting/retention. Glad I got my use out of it though.

Jamethon
03-12-2013, 04:45 PM
So then you admit you were wrong when you tried to take tiredretired to task for simply stating it was Obama's idea?

No...not even close. It would be like if your dad said if you didn't earn enough to pay for college by the time you were a Junior, you wouldn't be going to college. If your mom said that if you didn't earn enough to pay for college or get a scholarship to pay for college you couldn't go... If your dad then prevented you from getting a job or applying for a scholarship and you didn't get any $$ for school and were told you couldn't go. Yes, your mom agreed but the idea was your dad's and most of the fault would lie with him....

I think the story you just told is a little different. Most of the fault doesn't lie with the president. If the republicans didn't want it then they should have never backed it.

technomage1
03-12-2013, 05:06 PM
You are a freaking moron. Keep those kind of comments to yourself dumb xxx. God willing you will have a leeching spouses of your own and they will screw you for all of your money.

Que?

Making message long enough

Pullinteeth
03-12-2013, 05:10 PM
I think the story you just told is a little different. Most of the fault doesn't lie with the president. If the republicans didn't want it then they should have never backed it.

You mean like passing a budget? Oh wait, the House (Republican controlled) DID pass a budget... When was the last time the Senate (Democrat controlled) passed a budget? And if Obama didn't want it, he shouldn't have PROPOSED it. If the Democrats didn't WANT it, they shouldn't have voted for it. If the Obama and the Democrats didn't WANT it, they should have done something to prevent it. Seems like the Dems have PLENTY of blame AND came up with the idea in the first place.

tiredretiredE7
03-12-2013, 05:11 PM
I think the story you just told is a little different. Most of the fault doesn't lie with the president. If the republicans didn't want it then they should have never backed it.

So you start off with a personal attack on me about FACTS which you did not know about. Then you do your best to spin your mistake on the FACTS while claiming not to be a Democrat and not an Obama supporter but you still say the sequester is not the fault of the guy who came up with the idea, sold the idea to both the Democrats and the Republicans then signed the sequester into law. And the sequester is still not Obama's fault? And you still claim not to be a Democrat? 90% of Independents voted Republican in the last election so I guess you can call yourself the 10%.

I would say you exposed yourself as a typical Democratic voter who now regrets his vote. I could be wrong but I think most people would agree with me. Eitherway, I have enlightened you to the background on the sequester, how the sequester pushed the cuts to TA and who is ultimately responsible for the cuts on DoD. Hint; it’s not the Republicans.

Jamethon
03-12-2013, 05:19 PM
You mean like passing a budget? Oh wait, the House (Republican controlled) DID pass a budget... When was the last time the Senate (Democrat controlled) passed a budget? And if Obama didn't want it, he shouldn't have PROPOSED it. If the Democrats didn't WANT it, they shouldn't have voted for it. If the Obama and the Democrats didn't WANT it, they should have done something to prevent it. Seems like the Dems have PLENTY of blame AND came up with the idea in the first place.

So can't the same be said about the republicans? If they didn't want it then they shouldn't have supported it?


So you start off with a personal attack on me about FACTS which you did not know about. Then you do your best to spin your mistake on the FACTS while claiming not to be a Democrat and not an Obama supporter but you still say the sequester is not the fault of the guy who came up with the idea, sold the idea to both the Democrats and the Republicans then signed the sequester into law. And the sequester is still not Obama's fault? And you still claim not to be a Democrat? 90% of Independents voted Republican in the last election so I guess you can call yourself the 10%.

I would say you exposed yourself as a typical Democratic voter who now regrets his vote. I could be wrong but I think most people would agree with me. Eitherway, I have enlightened you to the background on the sequester, how the sequester pushed the cuts to TA and who is ultimately responsible for the cuts on DoD. Hint; it’s not the Republicans.

I guess my vote that did not include Obama or Romney somehow became Obama by some weird hypnosis by you. I proudly vote and I proudly voted for neither candidate that would either run our country into the ground, or continue to. Also, where did you get this 90% of independents voted republican? What I have read shows that 50% voted for Romney compared to 45% for Obama. I guess I am actually in the 5% who voted for neither.

Edit:

So the republicans agreed on the sequester? Hmmm...

Pullinteeth
03-12-2013, 05:21 PM
So can't the same be said about the republicans? If they didn't want it then they shouldn't have supported it?


Not unless you are an idiot...you can't say that the Republicans came up with the idea-cause Obama did. And you can't say that the Republicans didn't pass a budget because they did...

VFFTSGT
03-12-2013, 05:28 PM
I think the story you just told is a little different. Most of the fault doesn't lie with the president. If the republicans didn't want it then they should have never backed it.

Are you serious?

A simple "Google" search finds several references where the White House is the one who initially proposed sequestration.

Sequestration Bill Vote:

The (Republican Controlled) House passed the Budget Control Act on August 1, 2011 by a vote of 269–161. 174 Republicans and 95 Democrats voted for it. 66 Republicans and 95 Democrats voted against it.

NOTE: The Republicans control the House; with their vote split, the bill would have failed WITHOUT the Democratic support.

The (Democratically Controlled) Senate passed the Act on August 2, 2011 by a vote of 74–26. 6 Democrats and 19 Republicans voted against it. 45 Democrats and 28 Republicans voted for it.

NOTE: The Democrats control the Senate. If they were so against sequestration and were unified they could have blocked the bill.

A Democratic President signed the bill.

NOTE: If the Democratic President was so against the coming doom and gloom, he could have vetoed the bill.

The Sequestration Bill was far more bipartisan than Obamacare.

Both Parties own this one.

tiredretiredE7
03-12-2013, 05:39 PM
So can't the same be said about the republicans? If they didn't want it then they shouldn't have supported it?



I guess my vote that did not include Obama or Romney somehow became Obama by some weird hypnosis by you. I proudly vote and I proudly voted for neither candidate that would either run our country into the ground, or continue to. Also, where did you get this 90% of independents voted republican? What I have read shows that 50% voted for Romney compared to 45% for Obama. I guess I am actually in the 5% who voted for neither.

Edit:

So the republicans agreed on the sequester? Hmmm...

I enjoyed this debate. Ironically enough, you chose to follow some of the same techniques I have previously used to ague in these forums. Yes, unfortunately the Republicans did agree to the cuts on DoD inorder to get cuts in Social Welfare Programs. DoD works for the CINC who does have a large influence on how the cuts are applied. Honestly, TA has been on the chopping block for quite a while now; even under Republican presidents. The cut to TA has a much darker side to what other upcoming cuts to DoD are in the future under this administration. The only hope for AD is the Republicans keep some sort of power in the 2014 elections or this administration will cut DoD to the bone to support social welfare programs. DoD is what keeps our nation safe and the social welfare programs do not contribute to the defense of our nation.

I do not mind the personal attacks but some of the other forum members do get pretty spun up over any perception of a personal attack. You have demonstrated the capability to get your point across without personal attacks and you will get much further in debates in these forums.

The budget and continuing resolution debates are going to be extremely partisan and unproductive but Obama has extended an olive branch to the Republicans. DoD is really taking a beating over the sequester and uncertainty over the continuing resolution. Our AD does not deserve to be the redheaded step child of the current administration but that is exactly is what is happening to our AD. Hopefully Obama will lead the two parties to a successful compromise in meaningful cuts so our country will be spared anymore austerity.

If you did all of this to troll me then I declare you to be the winner of the troll.

Pullinteeth
03-12-2013, 05:48 PM
Are you serious?

A simple "Google" search finds several references where the White House is the one who initially proposed sequestration.

Sequestration Bill Vote:

The (Republican Controlled) House passed the Budget Control Act on August 1, 2011 by a vote of 269–161. 174 Republicans and 95 Democrats voted for it. 66 Republicans and 95 Democrats voted against it.

NOTE: The Republicans control the House; with their vote split, the bill would have failed WITHOUT the Democratic support.

The (Democratically Controlled) Senate passed the Act on August 2, 2011 by a vote of 74–26. 6 Democrats and 19 Republicans voted against it. 45 Democrats and 28 Republicans voted for it.

NOTE: The Democrats control the Senate. If they were so against sequestration and were unified they could have blocked the bill.

A Democratic President signed the bill.

NOTE: If the Democratic President was so against the coming doom and gloom, he could have vetoed the bill.

The Sequestration Bill was far more bipartisan than Obamacare.

Both Parties own this one.

100% correct. However, Jamethon claimed that Sequester was not Obama's idea and called out tiredretired on it and was and still is WRONG.

imported_KnuckleDragger
03-12-2013, 05:58 PM
I bet some schools/colleges/universities are pretty pissed about this lack of TA.

SomeRandomGuy
03-12-2013, 06:02 PM
I bet some schools/colleges/universities are pretty pissed about this lack of TA.

Looking at you University of Phoenix, Ashford, American Military University, and Trident. See you guys later. Was nice knwoing you.

Jamethon
03-12-2013, 06:07 PM
100% correct. However, Jamethon claimed that Sequester was not Obama's idea and called out tiredretired on it and was and still is WRONG.

I tried clarifying myself by saying that it was agreed upon by both parties.

In regards to your previous post, I am not trolling. I just refuse to believe it is the sole responsibility of the president. To call it that is a cop out. It is an issue that is a fault in both parties. The blame game goes back and forth between both sides when in all actuality both sides f-d up.

VFFTSGT
03-12-2013, 06:08 PM
Why don't people just use their GI BIll?

Jamethon
03-12-2013, 06:11 PM
Why don't people just use their GI BIll?

Airmen under 3 years in can't use the GI bill yet. What about those who transfered the GI bill to their spouses or kids and have already used them because the military promised TA?

Pullinteeth
03-12-2013, 06:15 PM
I tried clarifying myself by saying that it was agreed upon by both parties.

In regards to your previous post, I am not trolling. I just refuse to believe it is the sole responsibility of the president. To call it that is a cop out. It is an issue that is a fault in both parties. The blame game goes back and forth between both sides when in all actuality both sides f-d up.

Than apparently you can't read because no one ever said it was the sole responsibility of the president nor did I say you were trolling. tiredretired said it was his (Obama's) idea and you went off....you were wrong then and are wrong now... It was his idea. The fact that he now denies it doesn't change the fact that it was his idea. He thought he could use it to put the Republicans over a barrel and they would cave again... Didn't work so well this time...

And tiredretired said if you were trolling...you win...

Jamethon
03-12-2013, 06:15 PM
Are you serious?

A simple "Google" search finds several references where the White House is the one who initially proposed sequestration.

Sequestration Bill Vote:

The (Republican Controlled) House passed the Budget Control Act on August 1, 2011 by a vote of 269–161. 174 Republicans and 95 Democrats voted for it. 66 Republicans and 95 Democrats voted against it.

NOTE: The Republicans control the House; with their vote split, the bill would have failed WITHOUT the Democratic support.

The (Democratically Controlled) Senate passed the Act on August 2, 2011 by a vote of 74–26. 6 Democrats and 19 Republicans voted against it. 45 Democrats and 28 Republicans voted for it.

NOTE: The Democrats control the Senate. If they were so against sequestration and were unified they could have blocked the bill.

A Democratic President signed the bill.

NOTE: If the Democratic President was so against the coming doom and gloom, he could have vetoed the bill.

The Sequestration Bill was far more bipartisan than Obamacare.

Both Parties own this one.

I have been trying to say that both parties who this one!

It has been misconstrued as saying that it is solely the republican's fault. It is BOTH party's faults and everyone is blaming one.

VFFTSGT
03-12-2013, 06:16 PM
Airmen under 3 years in can't use the GI bill yet. What about those who transfered the GI bill to their spouses or kids and have already used them because the military promised TA?

IME, not seen too many Airmen under 3 years go to school. So, the few can wait their 3 years.

That was a personal choice to transfer the GI Bill. TA is not always promised - there is a disclaimer at the bottom about funds availability....people just took it for granted.

Odds are, if you transferred 100% of GI Bill you are staying in until 20. Don't really NEED an education to do that.

imported_KnuckleDragger
03-12-2013, 06:18 PM
Airmen under 3 years in can't use the GI bill yet.

Interesting.


I don't see any less emphasis being put on CCAF. Hopefully, college will stop being mandatory for awards and EPRs(i know it's not truly mandatory now).

BUDJR8
03-12-2013, 06:20 PM
IME, not seen too many Airmen under 3 years go to school.

Must be hard chargers at my location, our Airmen are actively engaged in school and furthering their education...or were until this got pulled...

technomage1
03-12-2013, 06:22 PM
IME, not seen too many Airmen under 3 years go to school. So, the few can wait their 3 years.

That was a personal choice to transfer the GI Bill. TA is not always promised - there is a disclaimer at the bottom about funds availability....people just took it for granted.

Odds are, if you transferred 100% of GI Bill you are staying in until 20. Don't really NEED an education to do that.

I always thought it was wrong that the pot 9/11 GI bill didn't have a funds pay in and it could be transferred. Don't get me wrong, those are nice features, but I always wondered about how it was going to be funded in future. Under the old o e, a lot of people paid in, some used it and a lot did not. So it wasn't as expensive a program to maintain as the new one is.

Agree it was a personal choice to transfer the GI Bill. My sup is moaning now because he transferred his to his daughter and now TA is gone. He's an E8, so while I have some sympathy I don't have a whole lot. If he wants the degree he's going for, he'll have to pony up. Either way his daughter is set.

VFFTSGT
03-12-2013, 06:23 PM
Interesting.


I don't see any less emphasis being put on CCAF. Hopefully, college will stop being mandatory for awards and EPRs(i know it's not truly mandatory now).

My last 2 EPR's have ZERO volunteerism on them and they are firewall 5's. So, education is definitely not "mandatory." Tell them to go take a CLEP test.

VFFTSGT
03-12-2013, 06:25 PM
I always thought it was wrong that the pot 9/11 GI bill didn't have a funds pay in and it could be transferred. Don't get me wrong, those are nice features, but I always wondered about how it was going to be funded in future. Under the old o e, a lot of people paid in, some used it and a lot did not. So it wasn't as expensive a program to maintain as the new one is.

Agree it was a personal choice to transfer the GI Bill. My sup is moaning now because he transferred his to his daughter and now TA is gone. He's an E8, so while I have some sympathy I don't have a whole lot. If he wants the degree he's going for, he'll have to pony up. Either way his daughter is set.

Yeah, no sympathy for an E-8. I have over $1,000/month I could do whatever with. If I have extra income, an E-8 should.

And that is just one month. A class at TA max is $750/semester. More than enough.

Military has become a bunch of entitlement loafers really....wanting everything for nothing. The people I feel sorry for is Army who spend a year in a sandbox in combat...not an Airman riding a desk.


In the past three years, VA has provided more than $24.4 billion in tuition and benefits to over 870,000 Veterans, Servicemembers, and their families, and to the universities, colleges, and trade schools they attend.

Pullinteeth
03-12-2013, 06:28 PM
I am just waiting for the email that says TA is closed for the Guard and Reserve....

BUDJR8
03-12-2013, 06:29 PM
My last 2 EPR's have ZERO volunteerism on them and they are firewall 5's. So, education is definitely not "mandatory." Tell them to go take a CLEP test.

Nothing wrong with that if everyone is in the same boat, but in the specific categories, how is one to separate each person/peer across the board?

Sergeant eNYgma
03-12-2013, 06:32 PM
Are you serious?

A simple "Google" search finds several references where the White House is the one who initially proposed sequestration.

Sequestration Bill Vote:

The (Republican Controlled) House passed the Budget Control Act on August 1, 2011 by a vote of 269–161. 174 Republicans and 95 Democrats voted for it. 66 Republicans and 95 Democrats voted against it.

NOTE: The Republicans control the House; with their vote split, the bill would have failed WITHOUT the Democratic support.

The (Democratically Controlled) Senate passed the Act on August 2, 2011 by a vote of 74–26. 6 Democrats and 19 Republicans voted against it. 45 Democrats and 28 Republicans voted for it.

NOTE: The Democrats control the Senate. If they were so against sequestration and were unified they could have blocked the bill.

A Democratic President signed the bill.

NOTE: If the Democratic President was so against the coming doom and gloom, he could have vetoed the bill.

The Sequestration Bill was far more bipartisan than Obamacare.

Both Parties own this one.

What's a good nonpartisan go-to site for political info iyo?

VFFTSGT
03-12-2013, 06:32 PM
Nothing wrong with that if everyone is in the same boat, but in the specific categories, how is one to separate each person/peer across the board?

I dunno, job performance maybe. 20% people do 80% of the work. Figure out who the 20% is and kick the those who do nothing but volunteer and go to school to the curb.

Pullinteeth
03-12-2013, 06:37 PM
Airmen under 3 years in can't use the GI bill yet. What about those who transfered the GI bill to their spouses or kids and have already used them because the military promised TA?

AGAIN....WRONG. After 90 days of AD, you are eligible to use the Post 9-11 GI Bill....

https://gibill.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/947

VFFTSGT
03-12-2013, 06:37 PM
What's a good nonpartisan go-to site for political info iyo?

That's difficult to find; I don't think there is one honestly. I just use search engines and chase down facts as best as possible and attempt to form a logical conclusion.

Almost every website has some partisan point of view; you just have to filter out the noise.

When I was looking up those numbers, the first site I came across had headline that said 174 Republicans Voted for sequestration and in the comments someone asked how many democrats voted for it. One person responded zero democrats. Well, we know that was a liberal site with people not able to think for themselves (the same can be said for the other side favored websites too)....lol

VFFTSGT
03-12-2013, 06:42 PM
AGAIN....WRONG. After 90 days of AD, you are eligible to use the Post 9-11 GI Bill....

https://gibill.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/947

That's a good point...forgot the 3 year thing was a MGIB requirement that changed with Post 9/11 GI Bill.

BUDJR8
03-12-2013, 06:44 PM
I dunno, job performance maybe. 20% people do 80% of the work. Figure out who the 20% is and kick the those who do nothing but volunteer and go to school to the curb.

I realize and obviously consider that...I'm saying if you have two shit-hot SSgts job-wise...they are both marked "clearly exceeds" in that corresponding section...when it comes to education and one has ZERO and one has 5 classes, how are they both "clearly exceeds" in that section? They aren't...that's why we have the current EPR mess we have...I don't agree with all the parameters but the form lays it out pretty clear...

Pullinteeth
03-12-2013, 06:44 PM
What's a good nonpartisan go-to site for political info iyo?

Heh...heh...heh... That is a good one. IMO, you have to believe oh, at MOST half of what you read. I try to do it like a journalist is SUPPOSED to, verify with at least two sources. If you look at one and it is a post of the AP and you look at another and it is a repost of the AP, I would keep looking. I also like to try to get both sides so I go to CNN and Fox quite often. I kinda trust the government sites but you have to actually READ what they write because they aren't above lying or manipulating the #s to make 'em say what they want them to say-see Joe's thread about the USDA and food stamps...

Jamethon
03-12-2013, 06:46 PM
AGAIN....WRONG. After 90 days of AD, you are eligible to use the Post 9-11 GI Bill....

https://gibill.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/947

But it doesn't pay 100% like TA does

Pullinteeth
03-12-2013, 06:50 PM
But it doesn't pay 100% like TA does

I never said it did.... You really need to get your vision checked....

VFFTSGT
03-12-2013, 06:51 PM
But it doesn't pay 100% like TA does

The average Airman has a large HDTV, XBOX/PS3, high speed internet connection, latest smartphone with a $100/month plan, etc...

If they WANT an education, they won't mind paying a lit bit towards it. TA use to be 75%.

Pullinteeth
03-12-2013, 06:53 PM
The average Airman has a large HDTV, XBOX/PS3, high speed internet connection, latest smartphone with a $100/month plan, etc...

If they WANT an education, they won't mind paying a lit bit towards it. TA didn't use to be 75%.

I used it when it was "only" 75% and was glad to have it...course I LOVED it when it went to 100%...

VFFTSGT
03-12-2013, 06:56 PM
I realize and obviously consider that...I'm saying if you have two shit-hot SSgts job-wise...they are both marked "clearly exceeds" in that corresponding section...when it comes to education and one has ZERO and one has 5 classes, how are they both "clearly exceeds" in that section? They aren't...that's why we have the current EPR mess we have...I don't agree with all the parameters but the form lays it out pretty clear...

The odds of coming across two equally shit-hot SSgt's job wise in the same work center is slim. One is somehow better than the other... Better customer service, better troubleshooting skills, better something....

The problem comes is from being friends with subordinates and the inability to honestly rate a person or being the "bad guy." With education and volunteer work, a supervisor uses that to rate someone and push aside the responsibility on well that is the AF requirement...rather than take on the responsibility of rating one over the other meaning one person is better than the other and now has a few more points than the other for promotion.

imported_DannyJ
03-12-2013, 06:57 PM
I used it when it was "only" 75% and was glad to have it...course I LOVED it when it went to 100%...

Upside to all this is now we now know which folks are only here for the educational benefits.

Pullinteeth
03-12-2013, 06:59 PM
Upside to all this is now we now know which folks are only here for the educational benefits.

I came in for education bennies... I won't lie. I stayed for other reasons but I don't see anything wrong with someone joining for monetary reasons...

BUDJR8
03-12-2013, 07:01 PM
The problem comes is from being friends with subordinates and the inability to honestly rate a person or being the "bad guy." With education and volunteer work, a supervisor uses that to rate someone and push aside the responsibility on well that is the AF requirement...rather than take on the responsibility of rating one over the other meaning one person is better than the other and now has a few more points than the other for promotion.

Nailed it; exactly how I feel...supervisors want to be friends and not supervisors and make the hard call...

technomage1
03-12-2013, 07:35 PM
But it doesn't pay 100% like TA does

TA doesn't pay 100% either. Since my school is $700 a credit hour I tapped out TA then used my GI Bill for top up. Now I'm purely on the GI bill, for reasons unrelated to the sequester, and I'm fully covered under that, though they pay by the month.

I'm one of those cases where the Montgomery GI bill is better than the post 9/11 one.

Airborne
03-13-2013, 02:29 AM
The average Airman has a large HDTV, XBOX/PS3, high speed internet connection, latest smartphone with a $100/month plan, etc...

If they WANT an education, they won't mind paying a lit bit towards it. TA use to be 75%.

I understand people complaining about the politicians/country not really supporting the military financially, but it has pissed me off to no end today people complaining that TA has been cut. I didnt know about TA when I joined, I thought it was just the MGI Bill. Found out it was 75% and thought it was cool and was happy to pay a couple of hundred bucks to top up and for a book. Now everyone is expected to go to Phoenix or AMU and have never stepped foot in a class room or had actual classmates and cant afford to drop a couple of g's for class. Though I whole heartedly support higher education, I say good riddance to 100% TA and the CCAF requirement and SRE and the inability to make Maj without a Master's requirements, etc. Thought there'd be more action on the board today regarding it.

VFFTSGT
03-13-2013, 02:52 AM
http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monograph_reports/2005/MR1295.pdf


Tuition assistance (TA) is a military-sponsored program that reim-
burses military members for the cost of college classes while on
active duty. The program is part of a series of quality-of-life efforts
designed to make military service more attractive to youth and
encourage them to remain in the military.

Well, considering we have a problem with too much retention these days, getting rid of TA should help that problem too.

VFFTSGT
03-13-2013, 03:06 AM
Only 26,000 more signatures needed...

Reinstate Military Tuition Assistance (TA) and block the Armed Service Branches from any further suspension of TA.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/reinstate-military-tuition-assistance-ta-and-block-armed-service-branches-any-further-suspension-ta/kSyVdySm

It needed over 50,000 when someone posted it this morning.

cloudFFVII
03-13-2013, 03:38 AM
Only 26,000 more signatures needed...

Reinstate Military Tuition Assistance (TA) and block the Armed Service Branches from any further suspension of TA.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/reinstate-military-tuition-assistance-ta-and-block-armed-service-branches-any-further-suspension-ta/kSyVdySm

It needed over 50,000 when someone posted it this morning.

I signed this petition too (on Monday).

And while the Post 9/11 GI Bill isn't going to solve everything, let me put your fears to rest by saying there is ZERO chance that will change. The VA is exempt from these revenue cutting actions.

TA will be restored when FY14 begins. The services have zero flexibility to meet these budgetary cuts. Once they hit the new FY, they will have more options.

Personally, they should just can the F-35. Problem solved.

VFFTSGT
03-13-2013, 03:43 AM
I signed this petition too (on Monday).

And while the Post 9/11 GI Bill isn't going to solve everything, let me put your fears to rest by saying there is ZERO chance that will change. The VA is exempt from these revenue cutting actions.

TA will be restored when FY14 begins. The services have zero flexibility to meet these budgetary cuts. Once they hit the new FY, they will have more options.

Personally, they should just can the F-35. Problem solved.

I didn't sign it, just re-sharing - I believe everyone should have their voice heard. And I want as much negative publicity of the Congress and the Executive branch as possible.

I don't mind them cutting TA; granted there are 38,921 other things that should be cut first....like foreign aid and the over priced paper weights we refer to as the F-22 and F-35.

cloudFFVII
03-13-2013, 03:47 AM
I didn't sign it, just re-sharing - I believe everyone should have their voice heard. And I want as much negative publicity of the Congress and the Executive branch as possible.

I don't mind them cutting TA; granted there are 38,921 other things that should be cut first....like foreign aid and the over priced paper weights we refer to as the F-22 and F-35.

Honestly, I don't mind it either. The majority of AF members had PLENTY of time to use this at 100%. If they chose to wait and not make it a priority, then honestly they just need to look in the mirror.

I DO have a problem if they keep CCAF as a SRE, while taking away one of the most important methods to help pay to complete it.

And, something I'm sure that will hit a few people, are those who transferred their benefits. If their kids are using it, now all of a sudden they need it too. Yes, while I agree people should save for a child's education and not throw all their eggs in one basket, it's going to catch a lot of people flat-footed.

grimreaper
03-13-2013, 04:11 AM
I DO have a problem if they keep CCAF as a SRE, while taking away one of the most important methods to help pay to complete it.

You have from when you are an Amn to after you put on MSgt to do it. For most people, it amounts to 5 classes, of which most, if not all, can be CLEPed. If you used all your GI Bill on your kids, you can apply for grants or take out a student loan for yourself, which is what you would've had to do for your kids anyway if you weren't able to transfer GI Bill benefits. That's less that $4k over several years. While it sucks that TA was suspended, using it to decry the requirement of a CCAF for SRE is just too convenient of an excuse. Now we'll really get to see who wants to put forth the extra effort to get promoted.

Airborne
03-13-2013, 04:17 AM
You have from when you are an Amn to after you put on MSgt to do it. For most people, it amounts to 5 classes, of which most, if not all, can be CLEPed. If you used all your GI Bill on your kids, you can apply for grants or take out a student loan for yourself, which is what you would've had to do for your kids anyway if you weren't able to transfer GI Bill benefits. That's less that $4k over several years. While it sucks that TA was suspended, using it to decry the requirement of a CCAF for SRE is just too convenient of an excuse. Now we'll really get to see who wants to put forth the extra effort to get promoted.

I really get where you coming from, but in the grand scheme, you cant expect people to come off cash for an Air Force requirement. Same age old adage of "if the Air Force wants me to have it, they will issue it to me." They were issuing money in the form of TA, now they arent. The air force wants you to be a top marksman they send you to the range, they dont tell you to buy your own weapon and ammo and go to the range on the weekend. And they stopped CLEPs at my base a couple of weeks ago because they couldnt afford a proctor.

Airborne
03-13-2013, 04:22 AM
double post.

grimreaper
03-13-2013, 04:29 AM
There's nothing that says the AF has to promote you past E-7 either. You can make it to E-7 almost completely on your own. To make E-8 and E-9, you have to sell the board on why they should promote you. If you're going to tell the board that you aren't willing to do something as easy as completing 5 classes, you're telling them you're OK with retiring as an E-7.

Airborne
03-13-2013, 04:54 AM
There's nothing that says the AF has to promote you past E-7 either. You can make it to E-7 almost completely on your own. To make E-8 and E-9, you have to sell the board on why they should promote you. If you're going to tell the board that you aren't willing to do something as easy as completing 5 classes, you're telling them you're OK with retiring as an E-7.

Exactly, but every E9 is acting like every E6 is going to make E9. So instead of having CCAF for your E8 board, you now have to have your CCAF and course 14 done as an E6 so you can get SRE on your first E7 EPR lest you not make the holy grail that is E8. Hopefully these budget cuts will get us back more mission focused and stop some of the madness.

grimreaper
03-13-2013, 05:09 AM
Exactly, but every E9 is acting like every E6 is going to make E9. So instead of having CCAF for your E8 board, you now have to have your CCAF and course 14 done as an E6 so you can get SRE on your first E7 EPR lest you not make the holy grail that is E8. Hopefully these budget cuts will get us back more mission focused and stop some of the madness.

Every E-9 isn't acting like every E-6 is going to make E-9. They are telling you what you need to do to help you do it. If you don't get SRE when you are TIG eligible as an E-7, you are only hurting yourself.

Airborne
03-13-2013, 05:28 AM
Every E-9 isn't acting like every E-6 is going to make E-9. They are telling you what you need to do to help you do it. If you don't get SRE when you are TIG eligible as an E-7, you are only hurting yourself.

Thus proving my point.

CrustySMSgt
03-13-2013, 05:56 AM
I DO have a problem if they keep CCAF as a SRE, while taking away one of the most important methods to help pay to complete it.

And, something I'm sure that will hit a few people, are those who transferred their benefits. If their kids are using it, now all of a sudden they need it too. Yes, while I agree people should save for a child's education and not throw all their eggs in one basket, it's going to catch a lot of people flat-footed.

The average person has 17 years before they compete for E8; if they haven't managed to get their CCAF by then, through DANTES/CLEP or taking classes, they have no one to blame but themselves. Making SMSgt isn't a right; it is the toughest stripe to make, with only 10-12% of eligibles being selected. Those 10-12% will have theirs done... if you want to be in that group, you'll make it a priority. Having said that, if this goes on for more than this FY, it will obviously have a trickle down effect and there will be more people who don't have their CCAF/SRE. If enough people have a record of sustained superior performance, with this exception, at some point the you'd start seeing some folks make it without it. I don't think we'll ever get there, but I do expect TA to either drop to a lower percentage and/or only cover CCAF requirements or maybe a graduate degree (since they went throught he trouble of coming up with the AU-ABC program), and if they till push officers to complete their Masters, allowances for that.

I transferred my GI bill to my daughter and then came to my senses and realized that was some good stuff I could milk after retirement! SO I made her enroll in one semester and take all the classes she'd need to get a CCAF and then sent her to the recruiter to go sign up and earn her OWN GI bill benefit! (OK, she made the decision on her own, but this sounds better lol) Sent her off to basic training today... :usa


double post.

When you go back in to edit the double post, there is a "delete post" option at the bottom of the window. Click that and it is gone! :)


Every E-9 isn't acting like every E-6 is going to make E-9. They are telling you what you need to do to help you do it. If you don't get SRE when you are TIG eligible as an E-7, you are only hurting yourself.

That about sums it up.

FLAPS
03-13-2013, 10:32 AM
Although I've seen dozens of other examples, as you wonder why the official USAF website still lists TA as a benefit of service, you can rest assured that our taxpayer money is being spent wisely....at least in 2011, according to Sen Coburn's website:


• $75,000 to promote awareness about the role Michigan plays in producing Christmas trees & poinsettias.


• $15.3 million for one of the infamous Bridges to Nowhere in Alaska.


• $113,227 for video game preservation center in New York.


• $550,000 for a documentary about how rock music contributed to the collapse of the Soviet Union.


• $48,700 for 2nd annual Hawaii Chocolate Festival, to promote Hawaii’s chocolate industry.


• $350,000 to support an International Art Exhibition in Venice, Italy.


• $10 million for a remake of “Sesame Street” for Pakistan.


• $35 million allocated for political party conventions in 2012.


• $765,828 to subsidize “pancakes for yuppies” in the nation’s capital.


• $764,825 to study how college students use mobile devices for social networking.

CrustySMSgt
03-13-2013, 10:36 AM
Although I've seen dozens of other examples, as you wonder why the official USAF website still lists TA as a benefit of service,

The website updater guy was probably on his furlough day yesterday, so it didn't get updated lol

mikezulu1
03-13-2013, 12:18 PM
thought this would be of interest

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123335129#.UT_okevbttR.facebook


the ENTIRE budget for the TA program is less than half the cost of a SINGLE F-22.

sandsjames
03-13-2013, 12:28 PM
thought this would be of interest

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123335129#.UT_okevbttR.facebook


the ENTIRE budget for the TA program is less than half the cost of a SINGLE F-22.


Going to the movies is less than 1% of my total monthly income. However, when I'm at the point of having to cut stuff out, going to the movies is one of those things I have to cut back on.

Pullinteeth
03-13-2013, 12:36 PM
TA closed for Reserve;

HQ AFRC/A1, 13-014 Expiration: Until Superseded

1. In accordance with FY13 Sequestration Guidance, Change #1, Military Tuition Assistance (TA) is suspended effective 1700 hrs, 11 Mar 13. This suspension applies to all Regular Air Force and Reserve Airmen and will remain in effect during the current fiscal situation.

tiredretiredE7
03-13-2013, 02:18 PM
Already know this topic is real touchy. I say get rid of it...

http://www.militarytimes.com/forum/showthread.php?1595346-Tuition-Assistance-amp-The-Budget

The ironic part is the people who are most affected by this voted for BO.

SomeRandomGuy
03-13-2013, 02:28 PM
The ironic part is the people who are most affected by this voted for BO.

You may be right but that does not mean it was the only reason they voted for Obama. There will be plenty of people who vote republican that will be harmed by things republicans want done. Not everyone votes for a candidate based on what it will do to their wallet (No, I didn't vote for Obama).

One example is some people on here supporting cutting TA. Of course the change affects them but they still believe it is the right thing to do.

mikezulu1
03-13-2013, 02:45 PM
Going to the movies is less than 1% of my total monthly income. However, when I'm at the point of having to cut stuff out, going to the movies is one of those things I have to cut back on.

or you could downgrade from owning 1,100 lamborghinis to 1,099 lamborghinis and still enjoy your movie

JD2780
03-13-2013, 02:46 PM
You may be right but that does not mean it was the only reason they voted for Obama. There will be plenty of people who vote republican that will be harmed by things republicans want done. Not everyone votes for a candidate based on what it will do to their wallet (No, I didn't vote for Obama).

One example is some people on here supporting cutting TA. Of course the change affects them but they still believe it is the right thing to do.

While I dont support the cutting of TA, I certainly dont support the outrage it has sparked.

Class5Kayaker
03-13-2013, 03:49 PM
I understand people complaining about the politicians/country not really supporting the military financially, but it has pissed me off to no end today people complaining that TA has been cut. I didnt know about TA when I joined, I thought it was just the MGI Bill. Found out it was 75% and thought it was cool and was happy to pay a couple of hundred bucks to top up and for a book. Now everyone is expected to go to Phoenix or AMU and have never stepped foot in a class room or had actual classmates and cant afford to drop a couple of g's for class. Though I whole heartedly support higher education, I say good riddance to 100% TA and the CCAF requirement and SRE and the inability to make Maj without a Master's requirements, etc. Thought there'd be more action on the board today regarding it.

Where's you hear that? I've heard none of that is changing. In fact, CMSAF Cody's email specifically stated CCAF is still a requirement for SRE even though TA has been suspended.


Fellow Airmen,

As you know, our Nation and our Air Force are working through some significant fiscal challenges. The combined effects of continuing resolution and sequestration are forcing some very tough decisions. Unfortunately we'll likely be forced to furlough nearly 180,000 civilian Airmen for 16 hours per pay period for the remainder of the fiscal year starting in April. This is one of many impacts on your units and our Airmen and Families. Given this environment we've had to make the decision to suspend military Tuition Assistance (TA) for the remainder of this fiscal year.

Effective 1700 EST, 11 March, Active Duty Airmen will no longer be able to submit requests for Tuition Assistance.

Believe me, this was a tough decision because our Air Force truly values education. This is evidenced by our requirement for a Community College of the Air Force (CCAF) degree for senior rater endorsement (SRE) eligibility. SRE means a great deal in the promotion of Master Sergeant to Senior Master Sergeant, and this will not change. We understand suspension of TA benefits makes things tougher, but there are other ways for Airmen to complete CCAF degrees. CLEP exams, the G.I. Bill, scholarships, and federal grants are some options.

We remain as committed as ever to ensuring Airmen have the opportunity and means to pursue educational goals. We're still looking at the impacts for FY14 and will do our best to have TA reinstated, although we'll likely need to review the eligibility requirements to ensure sustainability. We owe you more information on this and will provide details as soon as we can.

Thank you for your service to our Nation.

v/r
jac

JAMES A. CODY
Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force

Quixotic
03-13-2013, 04:34 PM
Effective 1700 EST, 11 March, Active Duty Airmen will no longer be able to submit requests for Tuition Assistance.

Effective 1701 EST, 11 March, this Airman quit being a mission hacker and became a pay check collector.

This was the last straw.

FLAPS
03-13-2013, 04:36 PM
Airmen under 3 years in can't use the GI bill yet. What about those who transfered the GI bill to their spouses or kids and have already used them because the military promised TA?

Airmen under 3 years have the right amount of time to become the best Airmen they can be, by knocking out all upgrade training and even CLEP the five or so courses required for a CCAF. Imagine that...a CCAF completed by the 3-year point! AFTER that's all done, then they'll be around the 3-year point where they can focus on additional education that will actually cost them something.

sandsjames
03-13-2013, 04:46 PM
or you could downgrade from owning 1,100 lamborghinis to 1,099 lamborghinis and still enjoy your movie

But we are at the stage where we need to cut down the number of lamborghinis to the minimum amount necessary AS well as cutting out going to the movies. It has to be EVERYTHING that takes a hit. That's how far in the hole we are (we actually need to cut out ALL the lamborghinis and go back to driving the BMWs we already have).

SomeRandomGuy
03-13-2013, 04:47 PM
Airmen under 3 years have the right amount of time to become the best Airmen they can be, by knocking out all upgrade training and even CLEP the five or so courses required for a CCAF. Imagine that...a CCAF completed by the 3-year point! AFTER that's all done, then they'll be around the 3-year point where they can focus on additional education that will actually cost them something.

That is what I was thinking. BMT is 8 weeks. After that the Amn will have tech school. For my career field (finance) tech school is 12 weeks. After that the Amn will PCS to their first base. The Amn needs to inprocess and complete FTAC. After that the Amn is expected to complete CDCs. In my unit we had a standing rule that college courses were not allowed until CDCs were complete. For finance that is 4 volumes which the Amn is allowed 1 month per volume. So even if the Amn is a hard charger they will not be done with CDCs until at least the 1 year mark. At that point they need to get signed off on core tasks and simply learn to be in the AF. The three year mark is a good point for the Amn to start college. I see no issues with waiting until that point especially with everything else that comes with being a new Amn.

tiredretiredE7
03-13-2013, 04:59 PM
Effective 1701 EST, 11 March, this Airman quit being a mission hacker and became a pay check collector.

This was the last straw.

I cane see alot of people's moral being lowered by this decision. However, the illegals in Colorado have just been given a huge boost in moral. They get TA for being illegal.

Class5Kayaker
03-13-2013, 05:32 PM
I cane see alot of people's moral being lowered by this decision. However, the illegals in Colorado have just been given a huge boost in moral. They get TA for being illegal.

Yeah, but that's a state's decision on how they're spending their state's money, nothing to do with federally funded TA (not that it makes cutting TA or funding illegals' tuition right IMO).

sandsjames
03-13-2013, 06:07 PM
Yeah, but that's a state's decision on how they're spending their state's money

+1...two completely separate issues.

grimreaper
03-13-2013, 06:33 PM
-Alternatives to CCAF credit without tuition assistance

-All of the general education requirements for CCAF can be completed with free CLEP or DANTES testing. You can get the study guides from your education office, library, or you can hit the link to the Peterson’s Air Force Education Resource Center. At the Peterson’s site , you will find practice tests for all 33 subjects and the e-book section has “Master the CLEP”…a book with subject reviews and practice exercises for the five general CLEP subject tests that are required for your CCAF (college composition, humanities, college mathematics, natural sciences, and social sciences/history).

-Apply for pell grants and/or student loans at www.FAFSA.ed.gov. This grant can provide you up to $5,500/year which will pay for 4-7 classes (and books). FAFSA can also provide information on low interest loans to pay for tuition.

-You can also use your 9/11 GI Bill, but word of caution…using the bill while you are still in can cause you to lose money in the long run…part timers get paid less than full time students and you will also not get the BAH $ that you are eligible once you separate/retire…the numbers are here, and you should also discuss this with your education office.

-HARM/SARM courses at Dyess AFB and Fort Dix can also count towards your CCAF…if your unit has the funds and are willing to send you in this fiscally strained environment.

-Hit up your base education office to see what scholarships are available and how to apply for them. If you are willing to do some school work…a short essay for the scholarship should be a piece of cake! 

-Paying tuition outright…I know, it is a lot of money. But, if you can afford it, the amount of tax benefits for students can be huge. For example, the American Opportunity Tax Credit provides a maximum annual credit of $2,500.

sandsjames
03-13-2013, 07:25 PM
-Alternatives to CCAF credit without tuition assistance

-All of the general education requirements for CCAF can be completed with free CLEP or DANTES testing. You can get the study guides from your education office, library, or you can hit the link to the Peterson’s Air Force Education Resource Center. At the Peterson’s site , you will find practice tests for all 33 subjects and the e-book section has “Master the CLEP”…a book with subject reviews and practice exercises for the five general CLEP subject tests that are required for your CCAF (college composition, humanities, college mathematics, natural sciences, and social sciences/history).

-Apply for pell grants and/or student loans at www.FAFSA.ed.gov. This grant can provide you up to $5,500/year which will pay for 4-7 classes (and books). FAFSA can also provide information on low interest loans to pay for tuition.

-You can also use your 9/11 GI Bill, but word of caution…using the bill while you are still in can cause you to lose money in the long run…part timers get paid less than full time students and you will also not get the BAH $ that you are eligible once you separate/retire…the numbers are here, and you should also discuss this with your education office.

-HARM/SARM courses at Dyess AFB and Fort Dix can also count towards your CCAF…if your unit has the funds and are willing to send you in this fiscally strained environment.

-Hit up your base education office to see what scholarships are available and how to apply for them. If you are willing to do some school work…a short essay for the scholarship should be a piece of cake! 

-Paying tuition outright…I know, it is a lot of money. But, if you can afford it, the amount of tax benefits for students can be huge. For example, the American Opportunity Tax Credit provides a maximum annual credit of $2,500.

But Mr. Reaper. All the things you mentioned require some effort and sacrifice by me. Why should I, a heroic military member, not be handed everything on a silver spoon? I've earned it. Just ask every person who feels obligated to thank the military at every opportunity.

mikezulu1
03-13-2013, 07:30 PM
But we are at the stage where we need to cut down the number of lamborghinis to the minimum amount necessary AS well as cutting out going to the movies. It has to be EVERYTHING that takes a hit. That's how far in the hole we are (we actually need to cut out ALL the lamborghinis and go back to driving the BMWs we already have).

agree 100%

grimreaper
03-13-2013, 07:45 PM
But Mr. Reaper. All the things you mentioned require some effort and sacrifice by me. Why should I, a heroic military member, not be handed everything on a silver spoon? I've earned it. Just ask every person who feels obligated to thank the military at every opportunity.

All I can say to everybody is that I hope they took advantage of all the goodies when we had them because times...they are a changin'.

I can see TA coming back eventually, but if/when it does, I doubt it will be 100%.

AF Comm Guy
03-14-2013, 02:17 AM
After exhausting my powers of Google-fu I think I figured out that the FY13 budget for Tuition Assistance was $128 Million. If anyone else can research it a little and find some hard numbers, please do. They seem to keep the information obscure on purpose.

I'm not going to make any judgements about whether it should or should not be cut, I just wanted people to know some numbers.

BRUWIN
03-14-2013, 02:53 AM
I'm having a goood laugh over here where I work. Every single person that has brought this issue up and has been whining and complaining about it has yet to ever use TA after I have asked them.

Quixotic
03-14-2013, 03:03 AM
I'm having a goood laugh over here where I work. Every single person that has brought this issue up and has been whining and complaining about it has yet to ever use TA after I have asked them.

Roughly a quarter of my work place is (was) using it. I'm almost done, but the younger ones were either just starting, or about halfway through their plans. But you're right, some of the Airmen who are upset about it haven't started, and I question whether some of them ever would. But with 104,000 thousand using it, just in the AF, it is still a valued program for many.

tiredretiredE7
03-14-2013, 03:12 AM
I'm having a goood laugh over here where I work. Every single person that has brought this issue up and has been whining and complaining about it has yet to ever use TA after I have asked them.

My reply to them would simply be "elections have consequences".

Quixotic
03-14-2013, 03:38 AM
My reply to them would simply be "elections have consequences".

Not really, Democrats and Republicans are both spending this country into the cr@pper equally. Fiscal irresponsibility is a banner both parties lay claim too, equally, and the idea that we wouldn't be in this same mess if Romney had won is laughable.

Airborne
03-14-2013, 04:44 AM
Where's you hear that? I've heard none of that is changing. In fact, CMSAF Cody's email specifically stated CCAF is still a requirement for SRE even though TA has been suspended.

I didnt mean to infer that it was happening, but I cant see it continuing to be a requirement in years to come even if it only is 5 CLEPS....Which most people end up having to take 2 of those full time. I would like to see the enlisted force get back to being technicians and the backbone of the force, not wanna be officers. It is of my belief that the requirement for a two year degree to make e8 an e9 is the Air Forces way to get warrant officers without having to pay for it.

CrustySMSgt
03-14-2013, 04:51 AM
Where's you hear that? I've heard none of that is changing. In fact, CMSAF Cody's email specifically stated CCAF is still a requirement for SRE even though TA has been suspended.

Stop trying to confuse people with facts! :fish :bolt


Not really, Democrats and Republicans are both spending this country into the cr@pper equally. Fiscal irresponsibility is a banner both parties lay claim too, equally, and the idea that we wouldn't be in this same mess if Romney had won is laughable.

Our whole system is so @#$%^&*('ed up that neither side is worth a shit. DC is so inbred and infused with lobbiest money that they are all pushing their own personal agendas over the good of the people and the country. Everyone wants cuts, just not in their district. Everyone wants to reduce spending, as long as isn't a program that someone is slipping money in their back pocket to protect. So they all sit around pointing fingers at each other in a giant circle jerk.

For everyone that bitches about pork being tagged on bills, funding of rediculous projects, and studies that make no sense, do you pull up the stats on how your elected representation voted and if it is contrary to what you think it should be, contact them and ask why, and if the answer isn't satisfactory, hold them accountable at election time? Or do you just go in and check to support your party blindly?

Apathy on the part of our citizens is the biggest contributor to most of our problems. Easier to sit around and bitch on the internet about the country going to hell, the constitution being trampled, and how you're getting screwed than to get out and vote. Maybe if we ran our elections through a Facebook Poll we'd get more folks to turn out.

CrustySMSgt
03-14-2013, 05:01 AM
I didnt mean to infer that it was happening, but I cant see it continuing to be a requirement in years to come even if it only is 5 CLEPS....Which most people end up having to take 2 of those full time. I would like to see the enlisted force get back to being technicians and the backbone of the force, not wanna be officers. It is of my belief that the requirement for a two year degree to make e8 an e9 is the Air Forces way to get warrant officers without having to pay for it.

Huh?!? :confused:

Warrent officers are skilled technicians. To be a WO you only have to have a high school diploma.

Quixotic
03-14-2013, 05:04 AM
Our whole system is so @#$%^&*('ed up that neither side is worth a shit. DC is so inbred and infused with lobbiest money that they are all pushing their own personal agendas over the good of the people and the country. Everyone wants cuts, just not in their district. Everyone wants to reduce spending, as long as isn't a program that someone is slipping money in their back pocket to protect. So they all sit around pointing fingers at each other in a giant circle jerk.

For everyone that bitches about pork being tagged on bills, funding of rediculous projects, and studies that make no sense, do you pull up the stats on how your elected representation voted and if it is contrary to what you think it should be, contact them and ask why, and if the answer isn't satisfactory, hold them accountable at election time? Or do you just go in and check to support your party blindly?

Apathy on the part of our citizens is the biggest contributor to most of our problems. Easier to sit around and bitch on the internet about the country going to hell, the constitution being trampled, and how you're getting screwed than to get out and vote. Maybe if we ran our elections through a Facebook Poll we'd get more folks to turn out.

Are you yelling at me, or agreeing with me, I can't tell. LOL

P.S. my congressional delegation routinely hears from me, I can't say that about anybody else I know. They're too busy with football and video games it would seem...

CrustySMSgt
03-14-2013, 05:10 AM
Are you yelling at me, or agreeing with me, I can't tell. LOL


Agreeing rofl

EDIT:

Was just in the "library" and had a thought (NO, I'm not posting from there lol). From what I recall on the SMSgt board, more than 30-40% of first time eligible MSgts did not have their CCAF (and/or PME) when it has been FREE for over 10 years! These are probably the same people who are now bitching, because "I was just about to sign up for classes to knock it out and now I'm getting screwed!" :tsk

sandsjames
03-14-2013, 11:47 AM
Joe Bonham, I need you as the voice of reason on this topic. And I'm serious on this. Can you please explain to these people that there are people who are in much more need of aid than military members bringing home over $50k a year (not counting the "free" medical care).

CJSmith
03-14-2013, 12:09 PM
Agreeing rofl

Was just in the "library" and had a thought (NO, I'm not posting from there lol). From what I recall on the SMSgt board, only about 30-40% of first time eligible MSgts had their CCAF (and/or PME) when it has been FREE for over 10 years! These are probably the same people who are now bitching, because "I was just about to sign up for classes to knock it out and now I'm getting screwed!" :tsk

Dafuq? Seriously?

JD2780
03-14-2013, 12:18 PM
Huh?!? :confused:

Warrent officers are skilled technicians. To be a WO you only have to have a high school diploma.

I see where he is coming from with the having WOs without paying for it but youre right. No degree required and yet they're as skilled as any E-8 or E-9. Yes, all they need is a high school diploma but they need to be more intelligent than your average highschooler. Every WO I've ever met had a degree, but they enjoyed where they were at and stayed there. The AF would still benefit from the WO program in certain AFSCs.

To often our E-8s and E-9s are trying to dance between being the senior enlisted advisors AND the continue to be the skilled technicians. Sadly, you cant. Its been provent time and time again that its almost impossible to do both. Between the scheduling bake sales and mandatory fun its impossible to be decent at all of the parts.

JD2780
03-14-2013, 12:25 PM
Dafuq? Seriously?

I know of 2 MSgts that fit that bill. One simply doesnt want to make SMSgt but has a bachelors. The other finally got into a position where he can take classes because he wants to learn something instead of just taking cleps. In the last 10 yrs he has deployed 9 times, when he wasnt deployed he was busy going TDY constantly. When he was deployed he was out on missions for 4-6 days at a time and doing that every week. He was on small out posts and not massively built up FOBs and airbases. So, no he doesnt meet the requirement for SRE however, he will be make it on the 2nd or 3 look. Although he would be a great SMSgt even without it. Has more experience, and expertise than most SMSgts I know. More leadership skills, more people skills. His hand writing is horrible, but I dont remember that being a requirement.

I know most E-7s dont fit this bill, but how do you not give a guy an SRE when he is the epitome of what a leader should be but doesnt have an artibrary piece of paper?

Pullinteeth
03-14-2013, 12:31 PM
I cane see alot of people's moral being lowered by this decision. However, the illegals in Colorado have just been given a huge boost in moral. They get TA for being illegal.

They gonna start robbin banks?:madgrin


I'm having a goood laugh over here where I work. Every single person that has brought this issue up and has been whining and complaining about it has yet to ever use TA after I have asked them.

I used the hell out of it...don't think I am whining. I miss it and my spousal unit will miss it when she goes back in the fall but...we shall get by.

tiredretiredE7
03-14-2013, 12:33 PM
Not really, Democrats and Republicans are both spending this country into the cr@pper equally. Fiscal irresponsibility is a banner both parties lay claim too, equally, and the idea that we wouldn't be in this same mess if Romney had won is laughable.

I think your point is Romney would have cut TA as well? Both parties have been on a spending spree but it was Obama's spending spree combined with inaction in congress (solely Harry Reid not brining the House budget to the floor for a vote for the past two years) to pass a sustainable budget was the main motivator which resulted in the sequester. The sequester is what pushed DoD to implement the TA cuts. I believe Romney would have at least tried to stop sequester from cutting into the DoD and Romney would have accepted the additional power offered by congress to have flexibility to make the cuts in specific areas instead of across the board sequester cuts. Obama refused to accept the additional power to make specific cuts.

JD2780
03-14-2013, 12:34 PM
They gonna start robbin banks?:madgrin

They need pay for classes some how!!! Cant be using the GI bill until they get out. That would just be crazy!!

tiredretiredE7
03-14-2013, 12:38 PM
I know of 2 MSgts that fit that bill. One simply doesnt want to make SMSgt but has a bachelors. The other finally got into a position where he can take classes because he wants to learn something instead of just taking cleps. In the last 10 yrs he has deployed 9 times, when he wasnt deployed he was busy going TDY constantly. When he was deployed he was out on missions for 4-6 days at a time and doing that every week. He was on small out posts and not massively built up FOBs and airbases. So, no he doesnt meet the requirement for SRE however, he will be make it on the 2nd or 3 look. Although he would be a great SMSgt even without it. Has more experience, and expertise than most SMSgts I know. More leadership skills, more people skills. His hand writing is horrible, but I dont remember that being a requirement.

I know most E-7s dont fit this bill, but how do you not give a guy an SRE when he is the epitome of what a leader should be but doesnt have an artibrary piece of paper?

In today's AF, absolutely. The AF wants managers and suppresses leadership and wants a “me” instead of “we” attitude in the enlisted ranks. And the CCAF is still not a requirement or standard in a written form in any AF guidance.

JD2780
03-14-2013, 12:45 PM
In today's AF, absolutely. The AF wants managers and suppresses leadership and wants a “me” instead of “we” attitude in the enlisted ranks. And the CCAF is still not a requirement or standard in a written form in any AF guidance.

Its not a requirement for E-8 but its a requirement for SRE isnt it? I've always been told it was.

tiredretiredE7
03-14-2013, 12:51 PM
Where's you hear that? I've heard none of that is changing. In fact, CMSAF Cody's email specifically stated CCAF is still a requirement for SRE even though TA has been suspended.

Wow. Thanks for posting this email. I guess the little Brown Book's use of the word "should" when referring to the CCAF has now officially been interpreted as "must or "will" by the new CMSAF. I will be the first to say the new CMSAF will NOT be any better than CMSAF Roy and proves it by this statement. DTRA is going to love this interpretation and good luck passing any DTRA NSIs next year.

CrustySMSgt
03-14-2013, 12:53 PM
Dafuq? Seriously?

EDIT: Sorry, I just realized my mistake. I originally wrote only 50% had, but then couldn't remember exactly, so I bumped it down and meant to say "DID NOT".

You'd be amazed. We are also one of the AFSCs doing a developmental assignment panels and I think my AFSC was closer to 50%... that's why I tell folks to knock out their PME and CCAF as soon as they can. If 50% of people self-eliminate, you're already ahead of the game.


I see where he is coming from with the having WOs without paying for it but youre right. No degree required and yet they're as skilled as any E-8 or E-9. Yes, all they need is a high school diploma but they need to be more intelligent than your average highschooler. Every WO I've ever met had a degree, but they enjoyed where they were at and stayed there. The AF would still benefit from the WO program in certain AFSCs.

To often our E-8s and E-9s are trying to dance between being the senior enlisted advisors AND the continue to be the skilled technicians. Sadly, you cant. Its been provent time and time again that its almost impossible to do both. Between the scheduling bake sales and mandatory fun its impossible to be decent at all of the parts.

I don't see most E8/9s being comparable to WOs. We push our SNCOs in to management positions where WOs remain tied to the specialty they got the WO position to work. Admittedly I haven't directly worked around any, so I'm just speaking from my likely limited knowledge.

I don't think there are a lot of SMSgts who haven't made the leap between being a specialist/technician and being a leader/manager. Looking at records it is easy to identify those still performing at the membership level and those who demonstrate leadership. For them and Chiefs I think there may be pockets of AFSCs that they remain more closely tied with "the working man" like maintenance, but I think that is more because they love the job and being in the trenches.


I know of 2 MSgts that fit that bill. One simply doesnt want to make SMSgt but has a bachelors. The other finally got into a position where he can take classes because he wants to learn something instead of just taking cleps. In the last 10 yrs he has deployed 9 times, when he wasnt deployed he was busy going TDY constantly. When he was deployed he was out on missions for 4-6 days at a time and doing that every week. He was on small out posts and not massively built up FOBs and airbases. So, no he doesnt meet the requirement for SRE however, he will be make it on the 2nd or 3 look. Although he would be a great SMSgt even without it. Has more experience, and expertise than most SMSgts I know. More leadership skills, more people skills. His hand writing is horrible, but I dont remember that being a requirement.

I know most E-7s dont fit this bill, but how do you not give a guy an SRE when he is the epitome of what a leader should be but doesnt have an artibrary piece of paper?

For the uber-hua AFSCs, "a friend told me" that in theory the bar is set a bit differently than it probably is for the rest of the AF. Agree, for certain specialties, do you want the guy who's managed to be in "training" and staff positions his whole career, has all his blocks checked, but has not operational credibility or someone who's demonstrated their leadership in the field?

JD2780
03-14-2013, 01:00 PM
You'd be amazed. We are also one of the AFSCs doing a developmental assignment panels and I think my AFSC was closer to 50%... that's why I tell folks to knock out their PME and CCAF as soon as they can. If 50% of people self-eliminate, you're already ahead of the game.



I don't see most E8/9s being comparable to WOs. We push our SNCOs in to management positions where WOs remain tied to the specialty they got the WO position to work. Admittedly I haven't directly worked around any, so I'm just speaking from my likely limited knowledge.

I don't think there are a lot of SMSgts who haven't made the leap between being a specialist/technician and being a leader/manager. Looking at records it is easy to identify those still performing at the membership level and those who demonstrate leadership. For them and Chiefs I think there may be pockets of AFSCs that they remain more closely tied with "the working man" like maintenance, but I think that is more because they love the job and being in the trenches.



For the uber-hua AFSCs, "a friend told me" that in theory the bar is set a bit differently than it probably is for the rest of the AF. Agree, for certain specialties, do you want the guy who's managed to be in "training" and staff positions his whole career, has all his blocks checked, but has not operational credibility or someone who's demonstrated their leadership in the field?

TACP isnt uber-hua. We're uber-complainers. When we stop bitching thats when folks should stop worrying!!!!

WOs arent meant for leadership positions but they can be unofficials leaders and mentors. Just like as a SSgt or TSgt you can mentor Capts.

CrustySMSgt
03-14-2013, 01:40 PM
New cmsaf picks 6 month window to review AC and eprs
And ironically the only thing people are talking about is TA.



Until the 6 months is up and the results come out, what else is there to discuss on the matter?

JD2780
03-14-2013, 02:00 PM
You miss the irony
Alexander Dumb Ass.
For years this forum
Has bitched about
Pt and eprs and
Leadership did squat.
Now the cmsaf is
Actually doing a
Review and all
People are talking
About is TA.

There is a crowd consumed with blood lust. When something looks to be going right, it will find something else to attack.

CrustySMSgt
03-14-2013, 02:06 PM
You miss the irony
Alexander Dumb Ass.
For years this forum
Has bitched about
Pt and eprs and
Leadership did squat.
Now the cmsaf is
Actually doing a
Review and all
People are talking
About is TA.

You're right, I'm a dumb ass... so genius, please explain how stating fact is ironic?

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/what-is-irony-with-examples/

sgtpotsie
03-14-2013, 03:14 PM
There are 2 ways to look at the government cancelling Tuition Assistance for the military:
1. The military is a sacred cow that should never be touched, no matter what, despite the ridiculous amounts of money we waste every year (flat screen TVs in the lobby for slide shows, new furniture every year, billion dollar computer systems that get scrapped, weapons systems that do not meet expectations and are scrapped, etc) and there are other areas that should be cut first. Or,
2. Every government department, including the military, should do their part to cut spending during these difficult times when our country is over $16 TRILLION in debt. For every one of my friends who complains about spending money we don't have, why all of a sudden are we up in arms over an expenditure that doesn't contribute to national security? And when last I checked, TA was cut for this fiscal year only (for now.)
Tuition Assistance was a perk, a nicety. Nowhere did it appear on anyone's enlistment contract. Everyone who opted for it still has the GI Bill, so if they still want to go to school, the government will STILL pay for your college. Quit your damn belly aching, take some cuts like our civilian counterparts have been taking for years, and feel some pain for a change. It's either this or some of you lose your job completely. Your choice. Meanwhile, those in charge will continue to tell us to turn off the lights as a way to save money, while pretending that the Air Force employing 315 Generals is not part of the problem. My point is, it's time to get serious. I think cutting TA as a non critical expenditure at this point was the right move. I might not have STARTED there, but we shouldn't STOP there.

Quixotic
03-14-2013, 03:18 PM
I think your point is Romney would have cut TA as well? Both parties have been on a spending spree but it was Obama's spending spree combined with inaction in congress (solely Harry Reid not brining the House budget to the floor for a vote for the past two years) to pass a sustainable budget was the main motivator which resulted in the sequester. The sequester is what pushed DoD to implement the TA cuts. I believe Romney would have at least tried to stop sequester from cutting into the DoD and Romney would have accepted the additional power offered by congress to have flexibility to make the cuts in specific areas instead of across the board sequester cuts. Obama refused to accept the additional power to make specific cuts.

Your feeble attempt to blame one and defend the other for the current fiscal mess is absurd.

Quixotic
03-14-2013, 03:30 PM
There are 2 ways to look at the government cancelling Tuition Assistance for the military:
1. The military is a sacred cow that should never be touched, no matter what, despite the ridiculous amounts of money we waste every year (flat screen TVs in the lobby for slide shows, new furniture every year, billion dollar computer systems that get scrapped, weapons systems that do not meet expectations and are scrapped, etc) and there are other areas that should be cut first. Or,
2. Every government department, including the military, should do their part to cut spending during these difficult times when our country is over $16 TRILLION in debt. For every one of my friends who complains about spending money we don't have, why all of a sudden are we up in arms over an expenditure that doesn't contribute to national security? And when last I checked, TA was cut for this fiscal year only (for now.)
Tuition Assistance was a perk, a nicety. Nowhere did it appear on anyone's enlistment contract. Everyone who opted for it still has the GI Bill, so if they still want to go to school, the government will STILL pay for your college. Quit your damn belly aching, take some cuts like our civilian counterparts have been taking for years, and feel some pain for a change. It's either this or some of you lose your job completely. Your choice. Meanwhile, those in charge will continue to tell us to turn off the lights as a way to save money, while pretending that the Air Force employing 315 Generals is not part of the problem. My point is, it's time to get serious. I think cutting TA as a non critical expenditure at this point was the right move. I might not have STARTED there, but we shouldn't STOP there.

So, are you arguing that all of our benefits should go away, or just the ones you find no value in?

Wow, think of all the benefits that aren't technically in the enlistment contract that could go away, you're right, we should all just bend over and take it in the name of political ineptitude, right?

sandsjames
03-14-2013, 03:47 PM
Hell, cut BAS as well...

"BAS is meant to offset costs for a member's meals. This allowance is based in the historic origins of the military in which the military provided room and board (or rations) as part of a member's pay. This allowance is not intended to offset the costs of meals for family members."

I'm all for it. Extra pay for food? Really? Who gets that in the civilian world? Also, I'd cut BAH. The only allowance should be a COLA that covers the difference in cost of different locations (just as a civilian employer generally pays higher wages in, say, California than they do in Texas because of cost of living).

This would actually allow our salaries to be RAISED while still saving money. Also, it would make more income taxable, sending more back to the government. People survived just fine in the military pre 80s/90s pay boom. They could do it again.

Give us medical care (for military member) and allow us to pay for Tricare (same as retiree rates) for dependents.

F4CrewChick
03-14-2013, 03:50 PM
USAF on a budget

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8532/8556660051_835964f111.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/f4crewchick/8556660051/) USAF_budget (http://www.flickr.com/photos/f4crewchick/8556660051/) by F4CrewChick (http://www.flickr.com/people/f4crewchick/), on Flickr

Class5Kayaker
03-14-2013, 03:52 PM
Park University announced yesterday that they're covering tuition for military members who are students affected by the TA shutdown and who don't have access to GI Bill or grants.

http://news.park.edu/pub/news_002308.shtml


Park University Offering Emergency Military Scholarships
By Brad Biles - March 12, 2013 - 5:15 pm

NEWS RELEASE

Many people have been caught in the middle of the U.S. federal government's sequester, and the active duty members of our U.S. military have been significantly impacted by suspensions to their tuition assistance funds.

In response to these cuts, and in support of the men and women who serve our country, Park University has announced it will grant Emergency Military Scholarships to help any qualified active duty military personnel continue their higher education studies.

Park's Emergency Military Scholarship Fund will provide full tuition assistance immediately to those students who are not eligible for GI Bill benefits, Pell grants or federal loans.

Students interested in receiving these emergency funds are requested to first consider these other possible sources of tuition funding, if needed, from these resources:
--- GI Bill Benefits -- Military students should contact their education service office or visit http://gibill.va.gov/ to determine eligibility.
--- Pell Grants and Federal Loans -- Visit www.park.edu/finaid/ to apply and determine your eligibility; applications are currently available for both the 2012-2013 and 2013-2014 award years.

"I am proud to lead an organization that has taken these strides to ensure our active duty military students' educational needs are met during these difficult times," said Michael H. Droge, Ph.D., Park University president. "I invite members of the community to join the University in supporting our U.S. military students with a gift to the Emergency Military Scholarship Fund."

To make a donation, visit www.park.edu/give/, or contact the Office of University Advancement at advancement@park.edu or (816) 584-6200.

Park University's 8-week Spring II classes begin Monday, March 18. Students interested in Park University's Emergency Military Scholarships should contact the University's Office of Student Financial Services at finaid@park.edu, (816) 584-6290 or www.park.edu/finaid.

sandsjames
03-14-2013, 03:53 PM
Park University announced yesterday that they're covering tuition for military members who are current students affected by the TA shutdown and who don't have access to GI Bill or grants.

Awesome. Private companies who feel they can afford that sort of thing should be commended for doing so.

sandsjames
03-14-2013, 03:54 PM
USAF on a budget

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8532/8556660051_835964f111.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/f4crewchick/8556660051/) USAF_budget (http://www.flickr.com/photos/f4crewchick/8556660051/) by F4CrewChick (http://www.flickr.com/people/f4crewchick/), on Flickr


PYB sighting!

Pullinteeth
03-14-2013, 03:58 PM
2. Every government department, including the military, should do their part to cut spending during these difficult times when our country is over $16 TRILLION in debt. For every one of my friends who complains about spending money we don't have, why all of a sudden are we up in arms over an expenditure that doesn't contribute to national security? And when last I checked, TA was cut for this fiscal year only (for now.)

You are of course aware that 1/2 of the cuts due to sequestration are DoD cuts right? You are also aware that some programs and expenditures are not being touched at all right? You are aware of course that the what $120 BILLION dollars in forgien aid to Syria and the French (to fight in Mali) etc.. doesn't really contribute to national security either-if ANYTHING it makes us less stable. Not saying the DoD shouldn't tighten their belts or even that TA is a sacred cow. I am merely pointing out that the DoD is being cut deeper than anyone else and others aren't being cut at ALL....

sandsjames
03-14-2013, 04:03 PM
You are of course aware that 1/2 of the cuts due to sequestration are DoD cuts right? You are also aware that some programs and expenditures are not being touched at all right? You are aware of course that the what $120 BILLION dollars in forgien aid to Syria and the French (to fight in Mali) etc.. doesn't really contribute to national security either-if ANYTHING it makes us less stable. Not saying the DoD shouldn't tighten their belts or even that TA is a sacred cow. I am merely pointing out that the DoD is being cut deeper than anyone else and others aren't being cut at ALL....

Yes yes yes. It all needs to be cut. Of course, since the DoD budget is so huge and one of the main causes of our issues is the wars.

Pullinteeth
03-14-2013, 04:27 PM
Yes yes yes. It all needs to be cut. Of course, since the DoD budget is so huge and one of the main causes of our issues is the wars.

Well I guess it is all in how you do the math isn't it? According to this website;

Entitlement spending (no definition)=$26.1 Trillion-$171 Billion cut (14.8% of the total cuts)
Non-Defense discretionary spending=$11.3 Trillion-$322 Billion cut (27.95)
Defense Spending=5.3 Trillion-$492 Bilion cut (42.6%)
Net Interest=$3.6 Trillion-$169 Billion cut (14.6%)

http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/budget-control-act

cloudFFVII
03-14-2013, 04:46 PM
Since, obviously, TA isn't coming back until FY14 (1 October) at the earliest, if it comes back in its previous form at all, I wanted to provide a couple options that should be available to any AF member to use:

- If you signed up under MGIB (Chap 30):
*You'll get around $1500 sent directly to you for each month of benefits
*If your college (tuition/fees/books/etc) is LESS then $1500, then you keep the rest
*If you use all 36 months of your MGIB you qualify for 12 months under Post 9/11 (48 months total)
*You utilize a VA Form 22-1990 through the DVA website to use the benefit.
http://www.gibill.va.gov/resources/benefits_resources/rates/CH30/ch30rates100112.htm

Now, if you want to convert your MGIB to Post 9/11 (which is a PERMANENT decision...research both programs FULLY before deciding to take action), you do this through the same procedure that I described above for using your MGIB.

Under Post 9/11 (for AD members in service)
*Pays 100% of your tuition/fees directly to the school; you don't have to worry about remembering to send them a check
*Also provides many avenues for certification programs, etc.
*7 states will all bridge the gap that Post 9/11 does not fill if you want to go to a private school
*All this information can be found on the same VA website
*Keep in mind: If you use Post 9/11 when you retire/separate, and you take even ONE class at a brick-and-mortar school, you will get BAH at the E-5 w/dependent rate. And that's YOURS. So if it costs you like $100 for gas to go to class, that's still a heck of a lot of money in your pocket. You can also qualify for other benefits such as a book stipend as well as a rural benefit.
http://www.gibill.va.gov/benefits/post_911_gibill/index.html

So yes, there are still plenty of options out there that exist for members to complete their education. I just thought this would be more productive then offering up opinions that are not going to change the conditions that TA is currently in.

Pullinteeth
03-14-2013, 04:53 PM
Since, obviously, TA isn't coming back until FY14 (1 October) at the earliest, if it comes back in its previous form at all, I wanted to provide a couple options that should be available to any AF member to use:

- If you signed up under MGIB (Chap 30):
*You'll get around $1500 sent directly to you for each month of benefits
*If your college (tuition/fees/books/etc) is LESS then $1500, then you keep the rest
*If you use all 36 months of your MGIB you qualify for 12 months under Post 9/11 (48 months total)
*You utilize a VA Form 22-1990 through the DVA website to use the benefit.
http://www.gibill.va.gov/resources/benefits_resources/rates/CH30/ch30rates100112.htm

Now, if you want to convert your MGIB to Post 9/11 (which is a PERMANENT decision...research both programs FULLY before deciding to take action), you do this through the same procedure that I described above for using your MGIB.

Under Post 9/11 (for AD members in service)
*Pays 100% of your tuition/fees directly to the school; you don't have to worry about remembering to send them a check
*Also provides many avenues for certification programs, etc.
*7 states will all bridge the gap that Post 9/11 does not fill if you want to go to a private school
*All this information can be found on the same VA website
*Keep in mind: If you use Post 9/11 when you retire/separate, and you take even ONE class at a brick-and-mortar school, you will get BAH at the E-5 w/dependent rate. And that's YOURS. So if it costs you like $100 for gas to go to class, that's still a heck of a lot of money in your pocket. You can also qualify for other benefits such as a book stipend as well as a rural benefit.
http://www.gibill.va.gov/benefits/post_911_gibill/index.html

So yes, there are still plenty of options out there that exist for members to complete their education. I just thought this would be more productive then offering up opinions that are not going to change the conditions that TA is currently in.

That is quite humorous. You say ANY AF member then didn't label the one ONLY availible to ADAF, mislabeled the one availible to all, and didn't even mention the one availible only to those in a Reserve component...

technomage1
03-14-2013, 05:05 PM
Since, obviously, TA isn't coming back until FY14 (1 October) at the earliest, if it comes back in its previous form at all, I wanted to provide a couple options that should be available to any AF member to use:

- If you signed up under MGIB (Chap 30):
*You'll get around $1500 sent directly to you for each month of benefits
*If your college (tuition/fees/books/etc) is LESS then $1500, then you keep the rest
*If you use all 36 months of your MGIB you qualify for 12 months under Post 9/11 (48 months total)
*You utilize a VA Form 22-1990 through the DVA website to use the benefit.
http://www.gibill.va.gov/resources/benefits_resources/rates/CH30/ch30rates100112.htm

Now, if you want to convert your MGIB to Post 9/11 (which is a PERMANENT decision...research both programs FULLY before deciding to take action), you do this through the same procedure that I described above for using your MGIB.

Under Post 9/11 (for AD members in service)
*Pays 100% of your tuition/fees directly to the school; you don't have to worry about remembering to send them a check
*Also provides many avenues for certification programs, etc.
*7 states will all bridge the gap that Post 9/11 does not fill if you want to go to a private school
*All this information can be found on the same VA website
*Keep in mind: If you use Post 9/11 when you retire/separate, and you take even ONE class at a brick-and-mortar school, you will get BAH at the E-5 w/dependent rate. And that's YOURS. So if it costs you like $100 for gas to go to class, that's still a heck of a lot of money in your pocket. You can also qualify for other benefits such as a book stipend as well as a rural benefit.
http://www.gibill.va.gov/benefits/post_911_gibill/index.html

So yes, there are still plenty of options out there that exist for members to complete their education. I just thought this would be more productive then offering up opinions that are not going to change the conditions that TA is currently in.

The chapter 30 benefits are capped for AD to tuition and fees only. I can't speak to the post 9/11 as I never converted.

sgtpotsie
03-14-2013, 05:43 PM
So, are you arguing that all of our benefits should go away, or just the ones you find no value in?

Wow, think of all the benefits that aren't technically in the enlistment contract that could go away, you're right, we should all just bend over and take it in the name of political ineptitude, right?

Any other words you'd like to put in my mouth? I never said there was no value to the benefit. I'm just saying we were not left without education options. I did say that I wouldn't have started there, though. Our country is going bankrupt, plain and simple. Why would we not make cuts to programs that are not vital to protecting our national security until we can at least come up with a common sense budget that doesn't suck any more life out of our national treasury? If you are against that, that makes you selfish at best.

VFFTSGT
03-14-2013, 06:35 PM
I'm all for it. Extra pay for food? Really? Who gets that in the civilian world? Also, I'd cut BAH. The only allowance should be a COLA that covers the difference in cost of different locations (just as a civilian employer generally pays higher wages in, say, California than they do in Texas because of cost of living).

This would actually allow our salaries to be RAISED while still saving money. Also, it would make more income taxable, sending more back to the government. People survived just fine in the military pre 80s/90s pay boom. They could do it again.

Give us medical care (for military member) and allow us to pay for Tricare (same as retiree rates) for dependents.

I hope this was intended to be a sarcastic post.

Because we get BAH/BAS, our base pay is substantially lower than it would be.

It's all part of a total compensation package....some companies give bonuses, some provide vehicles, and some provide housing.

There is a lot of wasteful spending in the US Gov and anyone who would advocate cutting military and civil service personnel pay and benefits while we are supporting illegal aliens and foreign aid is complete moron.

Sperry1989
03-14-2013, 06:40 PM
I hope this was intended to be a sarcastic post.

Because we get BAH/BAS, our base pay is substantially lower than it would be.

It's all part of a total compensation package....some companies give bonuses, some provide vehicles, and some provide housing.

There is a lot of wasteful spending in the US Gov and anyone who would advocate cutting military and civil service personnel pay and benefits while we are supporting illegal aliens and foreign aid is complete moron.

How would you feel about the government taxing BAS and BAH? I see both of your arguments, just curious to what you think.