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imported_KnuckleDragger
03-02-2013, 06:12 PM
With stellar EPRs and all boxes checked/SR endorsed:

Is it possible to make SMSgt within HYT if I had a Referral "4"(for a PT failure) as a TSgt at my 14 year mark? Outside of remotes/365s, I don't think I will be able to put 10 EPRs on top of that bad one.

or to paraphrase:

How critical are the "bottom" 5 EPRs to a board?



When I ask these questions in person, I feel like I get the "you can do anything you put your mind to" answer. I need brutal honesty. In reality, I need to know if this obstacle is too large to overcome.

CJSmith
03-02-2013, 06:23 PM
Stats are pretty clear who gets picked up.

SMSgt AF averages
2013 - 135
2012 - 134.99
2011 - 134.98
2010 - 135
2009 - 134.99
2008 - 134.99
2007 - 134.99
2006 - 135

imported_KnuckleDragger
03-02-2013, 06:40 PM
Those EPR averages are for the "top" 5 EPRs. I can attain that. My question is about the "bottom" 5 EPRs(because the board looks at the last 10) being a dealbreaker.

PT GOD
03-02-2013, 07:42 PM
I think you be focusing on the wrong thing, what you need to be focusing on is keeping your non-pting butt in the af ...if you was my troop, or my in dis squadron here, aint no tsgts allowed to be failing no pt ..what kind of horrible example are you bro. if i was you i'd just get out of the af now, and save myselves da there embarsasment of having a pt failures on my record....

Chief_KO
03-03-2013, 01:05 AM
I never got to sit on a promotion board, but from all I ever heard from Chiefs and Colonels that did usually only the top 3-4 EPRs are really read. Now, as the board looks at decoration history and see something out of place (a PCS without a medal, a medal "downgrade" etc.) a board member may look at the EPRs during that period (if they are in the folder) to get an understanding of what might have happened. Now, having seen a referral 4 for PT (assuming all the other markings were far right), that board member will score accordingly. Board members cannot speak to each other during the score, the only time they talk is if there is a split score (more than 1 point difference between members). The admin support person would identify that record with a split, and then convene the board members to resolve the split. While all members can speak, only the two with the split can change their scores to be within 1 point of each other.

During, the boards trial runs they are given 10 packages to score (from a previous year's board, with that member not meeting this board). Each package contains a unique variable, with the idea being to challenge each board member to be able to find and discern the unique thing in that package. The board members then will "norm" their scoring to set their scoring range (6-10). That is one reason why board scores vary from year to year and from AFSC to AFSC. Each AFSC meets the same board, so comparisons between the AFSCs is nothing but idle complaining and whining.

It is possible for that referral 4 to go totally unnoticed by the board, but again if a dec is missing or "downgraded" it would tip the board to look at those EPRs. Best thing to do, max your USAFSE study effort cause that is the one factor you have total control of.

BRUWIN
03-03-2013, 01:10 AM
With stellar EPRs and all boxes checked/SRE endorsed:

Is it possible to make SMSgt within HYT if I had a Referral "4"(for a PT failure) as a TSgt at my 14 year mark? Outside of remotes/365s, I don't think I will be able to put 10 EPRs on top of that bad one.



I believe you can do anything you put your mind to.

tiredretiredE7
03-03-2013, 01:41 AM
With stellar EPRs and all boxes checked/SRE endorsed:

Is it possible to make SMSgt within HYT if I had a Referral "4"(for a PT failure) as a TSgt at my 14 year mark? Outside of remotes/365s, I don't think I will be able to put 10 EPRs on top of that bad one.

or to paraphrase:

How critical are the "bottom" 5 EPRs to a board?



When I ask these questions in person, I feel like I get the "you can do anything you put your mind to" answer. I need brutal honesty. In reality, I need to know if this obstacle is too large to overcome.

To be brutally honest with you; I have to ask why this would even be a question in the first place? You need to keep pushing for SMSgt regardless of your past EPRs. I have seen some totally worthless MSgts who were desk jockeys their whole career make SMSgt. This last SMSgt cycle had two of the most highspeed MSgts I worked with make MSgt and one of them was totally unexpected due to no SRE the first time they were SRE eligible. This MSgt had 2 EPRs SRE since the non-SRE EPR and held a very unique primary position and just got promoted. It should have taken two more EPRs to recover from the non-SRE so there are exceptions to the "rule". You should live everyday thinking you WILL get promoted if that is your goal. Think of all of the MSgts in your careerfield that failed FA as a MSgt. They essentially you up in the pool of promotees. There are tow Chiefs in these forums who love to remond me of SMSgts and Chiefs they know of who did not have either course 14 or CCAF complete and still got promoted. I would say BS except I know of a MSgt without a CCAF who was promoted to SMSgt within the last 4 years.

It sounds like you have all of your boxes filled but the only person who can give you a brutally honest answer is an experienced Chief who will take an in-depth look at the content of your EPRs. There are a couple of CHiefs in these forums I would recommend you send your EPRs for a review (I am not dropping their names). You may only be missing one or two of the easy "gimme" extra things the board looks for such as TOP 3 president.

CrustySMSgt
03-03-2013, 04:56 AM
Stats are pretty clear who gets picked up.

SMSgt AF averages
2013 - 135
2012 - 134.99
2011 - 134.98
2010 - 135
2009 - 134.99
2008 - 134.99
2007 - 134.99
2006 - 135

Great starting point for the discussion!


Those EPR averages are for the "top" 5 EPRs. I can attain that. My question is about the "bottom" 5 EPRs(because the board looks at the last 10) being a dealbreaker.

Have you played with WAPS calculator? If not, Google it, DL it and play around with the EPR score calculator portion. If you've got 9 5s, with a 4 on bottom, your score will be 134.51. 2nd from bottom, 134.02. But remember, the numbers above are the AVERAGE board score, so it is possible to sneak in without a full set of 5s, but unless they are rounding up, those average 135s do not reflect anyone getting selected without 5s. Just for illustration purposes, if 1200 people all have a score of 135 and one has a 134.51, the average is 134.9995920066611... given they show some year's averages to the hundreth, it would appear that no one got anything less, but I suspect that isn't the case and not everyone does.

Receny matters! If you had a strong record before the 4, show you learned your lesson and have a strong record on top, I'd say there is no reason you can't make SMSgt. What you've done as a MSgt will carry much more weight than what you did as a TSgt 5-6 years ago.

Never pass up leadership opportunities. Get out of your workcenter and LEAD your peers at the group, wing, AF, and community level. Keep plugging away at your education; you don't need to have 20 credits a year; one or two classes a year show you're making progress.

PM me if you're interested in some more specific information that I won't post publically.

BLOB: yes you can

CJSmith
03-03-2013, 05:07 AM
Great starting point for the discussion!



Have you played with WAPS calculator? If not, Google it, DL it and play around with the EPR score calculator portion. If you've got 9 5s, with a 4 on bottom, your score will be 134.51. 2nd from bottom, 134.02. But remember, the numbers above are the AVERAGE board score, so it is possible to sneak in without a full set of 5s, but unless they are rounding up, those average 135s do not reflect anyone getting selected without 5s. Just for illustration purposes, if 1200 people all have a score of 135 and one has a 134.51, the average is 134.9995920066611... given they show some year's averages to the hundreth, it would appear that no one got anything less, but I suspect that isn't the case and not everyone does.

Receny matters! If you had a strong record before the 4, show you learned your lesson and have a strong record on top, I'd say there is no reason you can't make SMSgt. What you've done as a MSgt will carry much more weight than what you did as a TSgt 5-6 years ago.

Never pass up leadership opportunities. Get out of your workcenter and LEAD your peers at the group, wing, AF, and community level. Keep plugging away at your education; you don't need to have 20 credits a year; one or two classes a year show you're making progress.

PM me if you're interested in some more specific information that I won't post publically.

BLOB: yes you can

The same site also has a AFSC calculator if you really want to drill it down.

jondstewart
03-03-2013, 06:35 AM
A "referral 4"?! Christ, I remember when a 4 was actually a decent EPR, but after making SSgt, it didn't help in making rank. Remember, a 5 means you're overall perfect, or near perfect if you have a markdown or two. ;)

Jeez, why can't some of this be changed. You have people in the Army who can barely read and write making E8 because they are hardasses!

imported_KnuckleDragger
03-03-2013, 12:13 PM
To clarify:

I am currently a TSgt. That being said, I will have 5 years worth of EPRs that are 5s. That could be anywhere from 5 to 10 EPRs(all 5s). I would score 135. The referral 4 will be more than 5 years back, when I am testing for SMSgt, thus not affecting the EPR portion of the score. Hopefully I painted a better picture this time. If not, or I am still wrong, let me know!

PT GOD
03-03-2013, 03:37 PM
To clarify:

I am currently a TSgt. That being said, I will have 5 years worth of EPRs that are 5s. That could be anywhere from 5 to 10 EPRs(all 5s). I would score 135. The referral 4 will be more than 5 years back, when I am testing for SMSgt, thus not affecting the EPR portion of the score. Hopefully I painted a better picture this time. If not, or I am still wrong, let me know!

Damn TSgt's failing PT tests, what a disgrace to the service. Have you done anything in your career that you have actually succeeded at? I tell my people, if you can't pass every PT test then you have zero integrity, it is your only damn job, and the enlisted force structure specifically lists staying in physical shape as a primary duty at EVERY level. You sir, failed to do your job, you sir failed to live up to the core values, you sir should march right into the separations office and rip the stripes off your arm. No excuse for ANYONE to fail a PT Test, but a TSgt!!! A leader, a supervisor...seriously, If I'd be to be embarrassed and ashamed of myself to even look in the mirror. Get your act together troop!!!

CJSmith
03-03-2013, 04:25 PM
Damn TSgt's failing PT tests, what a disgrace to the service. Have you done anything in your career that you have actually succeeded at? I tell my people, if you can't pass every PT test then you have zero integrity, it is your only damn job, and the enlisted force structure specifically lists staying in physical shape as a primary duty at EVERY level. You sir, failed to do your job, you sir failed to live up to the core values, you sir should march right into the separations office and rip the stripes off your arm. No excuse for ANYONE to fail a PT Test, but a TSgt!!! A leader, a supervisor...seriously, If I'd be to be embarrassed and ashamed of myself to even look in the mirror. Get your act together troop!!!

Slow clap. I read through that without pausing.

Robert F. Dorr
03-10-2013, 10:03 PM
A "referral 4"?! Christ, I remember when a 4 was actually a decent EPR, but after making SSgt, it didn't help in making rank. Remember, a 5 means you're overall perfect, or near perfect if you have a markdown or two. ;)

Jeez, why can't some of this be changed. You have people in the Army who can barely read and write making E8 because they are hardasses!

This system has got to be changed.

Chief_KO
03-10-2013, 10:11 PM
Since the AFI did not specifically state you could not have a referral "5", there were some commanders who actually signed off on those EPRs. They didn't want to "hurt Johnny's career".
Big contributing factor to the "EPR problem" are the men & women who wear their rank on the shoulders. Easy to place the blame on the NCO/SNCO corps, but only 1 person in a unit signs (approves) EVERY performance report (and it is NOT the Chief).

SgtS
03-11-2013, 06:17 AM
To clarify:

I am currently a TSgt. That being said, I will have 5 years worth of EPRs that are 5s. That could be anywhere from 5 to 10 EPRs(all 5s). I would score 135. The referral 4 will be more than 5 years back, when I am testing for SMSgt, thus not affecting the EPR portion of the score. Hopefully I painted a better picture this time. If not, or I am still wrong, let me know!

Not really trying to be a dick here or anything, and certainly what you do now affects you later down the road, BUT isn't there a stripe in between the one you have now and the one you are talking about that you should be more concerned about making and putting on first?

tiredretiredE7
03-11-2013, 10:19 AM
Not really trying to be a dick here or anything, and certainly what you do now affects you later down the road, BUT isn't there a stripe in between the one you have now and the one you are talking about that you should be more concerned about making and putting on first?
MSgt is a given for most who can test well.

imported_SergeantJack
03-12-2013, 03:40 PM
Perhaps it's merely bitterness at my own failed Air Force career, but all this microexamination of every minute detail from a member's past in order to get another stripe brings an image to mind:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR78Kd9j51WHD7sUDEKphMO5PgHphAKM XBeTtVwTuyuWmURT94ZnRajFP9R

Please, sir, can I have some more?

imported_KnuckleDragger
03-12-2013, 04:03 PM
Not really trying to be a dick here or anything, and certainly what you do now affects you later down the road, BUT isn't there a stripe in between the one you have now and the one you are talking about that you should be more concerned about making and putting on first?

You are exactly right. Sometimes I put the cart before the horse. Time to study!

106PADDOCK
03-12-2013, 04:07 PM
A "referral 4"?! Christ, I remember when a 4 was actually a decent EPR, but after making SSgt, it didn't help in making rank. Remember, a 5 means you're overall perfect, or near perfect if you have a markdown or two. ;)

Jeez, why can't some of this be changed. You have people in the Army who can barely read and write making E8 because they are hardasses!

Because they are competent hardasses who can easily pass PT tests............. by the Army's standards :-)

CrustySMSgt
03-13-2013, 05:21 AM
Perhaps it's merely bitterness at my own failed Air Force career, but all this microexamination of every minute detail from a member's past in order to get another stripe brings an image to mind:

Please, sir, can I have some more?

Could be worse, we could be like the Army and board more than just E8 & E9.

tiredretiredE7
03-13-2013, 01:11 PM
Could be worse, we could be like the Army and board more than just E8 & E9.

I would have easily made E9 in the Army.

JD2780
03-13-2013, 02:00 PM
I wish for E-8 and E-9 you had to actually sit down in front of a board.