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View Full Version : Dept. of Agriculture: "Food Stamps make America Stronger"



Banned
02-28-2013, 06:28 AM
Cue conservative outrage in 3... 2... 1... (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/28/do-food-stamps-make-america-stronger-the-usda-says-yes/)

TJMAC77SP
02-28-2013, 01:53 PM
USDA endorses the benefits of a program they manage................

Why would there be outrage or surprise at all?

Posts like this is why you get called a troll Joe.

BTW: The food stamp program, like most entitlement programs is great and needed. What people of your ilk like to ignore when raging against conservatives is that the average opponent to the programs is really opposed to the abuse of the systems not the programs themselves. Of course it makes for a better visual to show children and the elderly when talking about how the big, bad, evil wolves (everyone who doesn't agree with you) wants to 'change X program as we know it". Some here have even claimed that the programs are in danger of being eliminated totally if the GOP were to come to power.

Of course, obviously these tactics generally work which is the saddest thing of all.

CrustySMSgt
02-28-2013, 02:02 PM
USDA endorses the benefits of a program they manage................


should this REALLY have to be pointed out to anyone?

What does he expect their marketing campaign to be, "Food Stamps, we know you're losers, but we love you anyway?"

Pullinteeth
02-28-2013, 02:09 PM
Cue conservative outrage in 3... 2... 1... (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/28/do-food-stamps-make-america-stronger-the-usda-says-yes/)

Do I think they make a good argument? Sure why not. However, giving half the data to complete the equasion doesn't make their conclusion ture. They claim for every $5 in food stamps, $9.20 is generated in local revenue... What they don't tell you is how much it costs in tax dollars for every $5 in food stamps. If we had that portion of the puzzle, then you could really say it does or does not benefit the economy.
To clarify, if it costs the government more than $4.20 in overhead (salaries, facilities, whatever) for every $5 in bennies, then it isn't a good economic investment. If it is less, then they have a point.
I don't know which it true but I know that they are only painting half the picture....

sandsjames
02-28-2013, 02:19 PM
I'M OUTRAGED!!!...not even a little bit. Of course foodstamps are good for the local economies. It's the government paying local communites money that they wouldn't have otherwise had. It's not rocket surgery.

Food stamps are a good thing when used for their purpose by people who need them.

Troll on, Joe. I don't think you'll get the reaction you were hoping for outta this fishing trip.

MilPhD
02-28-2013, 02:21 PM
I would prefer a successful America that doesn't need to support 50 million citizens with food stamps.

Pullinteeth
02-28-2013, 02:23 PM
2962
Did no one else notice that they have the Afghan flag over Malaysia, the Saudi flag over Afghanistan, and the Malaysian flag over Saudi Arabia?

sandsjames
02-28-2013, 02:32 PM
I would prefer a successful America that doesn't need to support 50 million citizens with food stamps.

I think we all would. Unfortunately, we've got a long way to go.

Greg
02-28-2013, 02:38 PM
Food stamps makes America stronger?! Ha-ha-ha. What a load of crap! How does enabling dependency make anything stronger?

The majority of those receiving SNAP live in the inner-city, aka, a food desert. The name, food desert, is used to describe the limited options of the local residents.

Walk into one of the local small supermarkets or conveinance stores, and notice all the options available. Displays loaded with salty snacks and sugary drinks. What produce displayed is usually bruised and overly ripe.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1900947,00.html

TJMAC77SP
02-28-2013, 05:11 PM
2962
Did no one else notice that they have the Afghan flag over Malaysia, the Saudi flag over Afghanistan, and the Malaysian flag over Saudi Arabia?

Good catch.

imported_WILDJOKER5
02-28-2013, 06:26 PM
Liberals and their fuzzy math, that is something to be outraged about really. It was dumb when Pelosi said it a few years ago, it is just as dumb now.

Pullinteeth
02-28-2013, 06:29 PM
Using this logic and fuzzy math, the DoD could legitimately argue that every Congressional district should have a Base/Post/Station because of the influx of capital that a military facility brings to the community.... After all, if you don't factor in how much they cost to build/maintain, they are a great way to stimulate the economy...

imported_WILDJOKER5
02-28-2013, 06:43 PM
Using this logic and fuzzy math, the DoD could legitimately argue that every Congressional district should have a Base/Post/Station because of the influx of capital that a military facility brings to the community.... After all, if you don't factor in how much they cost to build/maintain, they are a great way to stimulate the economy...

BINGO. You hit the nail on the head of why we should close at least 90% of our bases overseas. We feed our money into the other countries local economies through rent, up keep, and the troops paychecks that just doesnt ever come back to the states. The GOP is concerned about the mexicans that come here illegally and work and send their money back to mexico to support their families, yet we send way more money around the world through the military.

garhkal
02-28-2013, 07:40 PM
should this REALLY have to be pointed out to anyone?

What does he expect their marketing campaign to be, "Food Stamps, we know you're losers, but we love you anyway?"

What';s the betting that if someone at the USDA did say that they would be blasted in the media and forced to apologize.


Do I think they make a good argument? Sure why not. However, giving half the data to complete the equation doesn't make their conclusion ture. They claim for every $5 in food stamps, $9.20 is generated in local revenue... What they don't tell you is how much it costs in tax dollars for every $5 in food stamps. If we had that portion of the puzzle, then you could really say it does or does not benefit the economy.
To clarify, if it costs the government more than $4.20 in overhead (salaries, facilities, whatever) for every $5 in bennies, then it isn't a good economic investment. If it is less, then they have a point.
I don't know which it true but I know that they are only painting half the picture....

Very true PT... we are only getting one side of the equation. Does the USDA or any other govt branch list the cost of supplying said benefits? Doubt it.


I would prefer a successful America that doesn't need to support 50 million citizens with food stamps.

Heck i would prefer that those people ON it were successful themselves so they could get off.


BINGO. You hit the nail on the head of why we should close at least 90% of our bases overseas. We feed our money into the other countries local economies through rent, up keep, and the troops paychecks that just doesnt ever come back to the states. The GOP is concerned about the mexicans that come here illegally and work and send their money back to mexico to support their families, yet we send way more money around the world through the military.

Or just in foreign aid. I saw on CNN's ticker that we have located 60 million to send to Syria...

Banned
03-01-2013, 02:31 AM
Fewer people going hungry... by definition makes you stronger.

Greg
03-01-2013, 02:43 AM
Fewer people going hungry... by definition makes you stronger.

It helps if the money is spent wisely.

Banned
03-01-2013, 02:50 AM
It helps if the money is spent wisely.

It does. Actually holding employers accountable for actually employing Americans would help too.

Greg
03-01-2013, 03:03 AM
It does. Actually holding employers accountable for actually employing Americans would help too.

A robust economy cures quite a few ills. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. True change comes from within.

Apply for an entry-level position, get your foot in the door. Start from the bottom, work your way up.

A very hard, difficult task. How determined are you?

sandsjames
03-01-2013, 01:42 PM
It does. Actually holding employers accountable for actually employing Americans would help too.

Yes it would!!! This has to be the first move for any sort of fix.

sandsjames
03-01-2013, 01:44 PM
Fewer people going hungry... by definition makes you stronger.

Actually, taking "strength" away from the "strongest" to prop up the weakest only makes the entire group weaker.

Pullinteeth
03-01-2013, 01:55 PM
Fewer people going hungry... by definition makes you stronger.

You are right (for the most part). Eating food does generally make people stronger but that isn't what this is about...it is about whether the Federal government taking your money and giving it to someone else improves the economy or not...

MilPhD
03-01-2013, 02:44 PM
It does. Actually holding employers accountable for actually employing Americans would help too.

Joe, what is preventing you from becoming an employer? You have no problem continually criticizing employers and directing how they should run THEIR companies. Talk is cheap and worthless, step up or shut up. I would love to work for your company. I better get paid close to your salary and income or I'm going to complain how you're a worthless, despicable, greedy, corrupt, evil, man taking advantage of your employees.

So Joe, where do I sign up? What type of company do you plan to start? Hope you're a HUGE success and then you can prove all of us wrong about your liberal ideals.

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-01-2013, 03:52 PM
It does. Actually holding employers accountable for actually employing Americans would help too.

So when 20-30 million illegals get amnesty, and we dont have enough work to go around already, who is going to be hired then?

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-01-2013, 04:00 PM
Joe, what is preventing you from becoming an employer? You have no problem continually criticizing employers and directing how they should run THEIR companies. Talk is cheap and worthless, step up or shut up. I would love to work for your company. I better get paid close to your salary and income or I'm going to complain how you're a worthless, despicable, greedy, corrupt, evil, man taking advantage of your employees.

So Joe, where do I sign up? What type of company do you plan to start? Hope you're a HUGE success and then you can prove all of us wrong about your liberal ideals.The federal government hasnt given him a loan yet to start the company of "government moochers inc." yet so, it might be a while.

TJMAC77SP
03-01-2013, 04:14 PM
So when 20-30 million illegals get amnesty, and we dont have enough work to go around already, who is going to be hired then?

WJ5, In all fairness I believe the current estimates are between 11 and 12 million and I would guess a large percentage of them are actually working. That isn't the problem. The problem is that they aren't paying taxes and yet are drawing benefits from various entitlement programs and tax-funded organizations.

Hell, I am all for amnesty (let's face it we were all immigrants at some point in our family tree). I just want them paying taxes and adding to our society. In fact the plan put forth by the bipartisan Senate group addresses many of the issues but was 'dead on arrival' to quote Harry Reid's favorite retort to anything that isn't very partisan

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-01-2013, 05:19 PM
WJ5, In all fairness I believe the current estimates are between 11 and 12 million and I would guess a large percentage of them are actually working. That isn't the problem. The problem is that they aren't paying taxes and yet are drawing benefits from various entitlement programs and tax-funded organizations. I think you are right on the numbers.

My question still stand though. And when they get their amnesty and the bosses are forced to pay them more money, how many will be laid off due to the labor cost going up?


Hell, I am all for amnesty (let's face it we were all immigrants at some point in our family tree). I just want them paying taxes and adding to our society. In fact the plan put forth by the bipartisan Senate group addresses many of the issues but was 'dead on arrival' to quote Harry Reid's favorite retort to anything that isn't very partisanHey, sure. And my AR-15 and many other "undocumented" assault rifles want amnesty too.

Amnesty will cause another spike in unemplyment. And they still wont be paying taxes cause they arent making enough to pay income taxes anyways.

garhkal
03-01-2013, 07:32 PM
WJ5, In all fairness I believe the current estimates are between 11 and 12 million and I would guess a large percentage of them are actually working. That isn't the problem. The problem is that they aren't paying taxes and yet are drawing benefits from various entitlement programs and tax-funded organizations.

Hell, I am all for amnesty (let's face it we were all immigrants at some point in our family tree). I just want them paying taxes and adding to our society. In fact the plan put forth by the bipartisan Senate group addresses many of the issues but was 'dead on arrival' to quote Harry Reid's favorite retort to anything that isn't very partisan

i'm not for any form of amnesty. All it does is tell those who break the law, stay around long enough, and we will make you legal. Which is a massive slap in the face for all those who DO go the proper legal route.

TJMAC77SP
03-01-2013, 08:04 PM
i'm not for any form of amnesty. All it does is tell those who break the law, stay around long enough, and we will make you legal. Which is a massive slap in the face for all those who DO go the proper legal route.

You are right I do get your point but, here's the thing. These 11 million are literally facts on the ground. I personally believe it virtually impossible to deport every one of the illegals (and yes that is what they are, if someone wants to attempt to soften that fine. Perhaps we can call a thief a possession-concept challenged person). I am not convinced that we can even secure the borders enough to keep another 11 million illegals from coming here AFTER the amnesty. All I know is that, just like entitlement programs and spending in general, SOMETHING has to be done. It isn't enough to vilify ANYONE who suggests ANYTHING to fix the problem. Contribute to the solution or sit down and SFTU.

Banned
03-02-2013, 01:20 AM
Actually, taking "strength" away from the "strongest" to prop up the weakest only makes the entire group weaker.

Something tells me you weren't paying very much attention in math class.

You have a hundred people, 1 large pizza. One person in the group takes the entire pizza except for one slice, to be split among the rest. Now if that man instead left TWO pieces of pizza to be split... would that make the group stronger (AKA, the average amount of pizza eaten per person rises), or weaker (AKA, the average amount of pizza eaten per person declines)


Joe, what is preventing you from becoming an employer? You have no problem continually criticizing employers and directing how they should run THEIR companies. Talk is cheap and worthless, step up or shut up. I would love to work for your company. I better get paid close to your salary and income or I'm going to complain how you're a worthless, despicable, greedy, corrupt, evil, man taking advantage of your employees.

So Joe, where do I sign up? What type of company do you plan to start? Hope you're a HUGE success and then you can prove all of us wrong about your liberal ideals.

So I guess since you're not a politician, you have no right to condemn politicians.

Rizzo77
03-02-2013, 02:20 AM
I saw on CNN's ticker that we have located 60 million to send to Syria...

I saw that. On the SAME DAY that sequestration went into effect, somehow 60 million dollars are just laying around.

I don't wanna hear SHIT about neglect in MY country when we're wasting money around the world.

Banned
03-02-2013, 03:02 AM
I saw that. On the SAME DAY that sequestration went into effect, somehow 60 million dollars are just laying around.

I don't wanna hear SHIT about neglect in MY country when we're wasting money around the world.

We gotta prepare for the apocalypse man. Jesus won't come back until America/Israel and all the nasty Arabs have a final epic battle in the Middle East.

Pullinteeth
03-02-2013, 03:28 AM
Something tells me you weren't paying very much attention in math class.

You have a hundred people, 1 large pizza. One person in the group takes the entire pizza except for one slice, to be split among the rest. Now if that man instead left TWO pieces of pizza to be split... would that make the group stronger (AKA, the average amount of pizza eaten per person rises), or weaker (AKA, the average amount of pizza eaten per person declines)

Joe, Joe, Joe...something tells me you were paying too much attention to the "new math" class.

The truth of the equation is likely more like this. You have 100 people. Each has 1 large pizza. The government comes and takes 1/2 of each of their pizzas (50 pizzas total). You also have 25 people with no pizzas. The gov then distributes 10 pizzas to those the 25 that had no pizza and throws the remaining 40 pizzas in the trash and tells everyone that they produced 10 pizzas for those that had none and that there is now more pizza than there was before the gov intervened.


We gotta prepare for the apocalypse man. Jesus won't come back until America/Israel and all the nasty Arabs have a final epic battle in the Middle East.

Remember those threads where the guy was saying that the Chinese Army was prohesized in the bible and a sign of the end times? Good times...good times...

Rizzo77
03-02-2013, 03:34 AM
We gotta prepare for the apocalypse man. Jesus won't come back until America/Israel and all the nasty Arabs have a final epic battle in the Middle East.

Nostradamus said it would be in July of 1999, and the Mayans said December 21, 2012.

I'm STILL payin' taxes that INCREASED this year.

Enjoy your bunker, dude.

Banned
03-02-2013, 03:42 AM
Nostradamus said it would be in July of 1999, and the Mayans said December 21, 2012.

I'm STILL payin' taxes that INCREASED this year.

Enjoy your bunker, dude.

We gotta do it man! Any American leader who doesn't put Israeli interests above our own is a traitor!

Greg
03-02-2013, 01:13 PM
We gotta do it man! Any American leader who doesn't put Israeli interests above our own is a traitor!

Love me some Israeli muff. Finding the mute button is another matter.

garhkal
03-02-2013, 06:27 PM
You are right I do get your point but, here's the thing. These 11 million are literally facts on the ground. I personally believe it virtually impossible to deport every one of the illegals (and yes that is what they are, if someone wants to attempt to soften that fine. Perhaps we can call a thief a possession-concept challenged person). I am not convinced that we can even secure the borders enough to keep another 11 million illegals from coming here AFTER the amnesty. All I know is that, just like entitlement programs and spending in general, SOMETHING has to be done. It isn't enough to vilify ANYONE who suggests ANYTHING to fix the problem. Contribute to the solution or sit down and SFTU.

Well lets see.. The Oil companies have deep ground penetrating sonar/radar that lets them see pockets 100s of meters down. We have lots of contractors with diggers just sitting around.
DITCH the damn border.. from coast to coast. 200m deep, 300m wide. Take all the dirt and make a rampart on our side of the ditch, 100m high, then use the rest to fortify up all our river levies.
THEN put a friken wall on the top of the rampart after concreting the whole lot. Use the ground penetrating radar to detect tunnels and shut them down by colapsing them.
That right there would secure it a hell of a lot better than it is now.
As to the deporting. Yes it would be hard as heck to deport the lot of them, but we can start by deporting all those in jail.
Then cut off all aid (welfare, food stamps etc). stop the free schooling for the kids of illegals. Get on all the damn sanctuary cities as much as the DOJ/WH what to get onto the cities/states wanting to be harsh towards illegals. Make it hard for illegals to stay here... They will self deport.


I don't wanna hear SHIT about neglect in MY country when we're wasting money around the world.

To me that right there, is one of the easiest ways we can cut some of our damn budget.. STOP sending foreign aid.

sandsjames
03-02-2013, 10:00 PM
Something tells me you weren't paying very much attention in math class.

You have a hundred people, 1 large pizza. One person in the group takes the entire pizza except for one slice, to be split among the rest. Now if that man instead left TWO pieces of pizza to be split... would that make the group stronger (AKA, the average amount of pizza eaten per person rises), or weaker (AKA, the average amount of pizza eaten per person declines)





It depends. If you've got 8 slices and 50 people you are ALL going to get weaker because there isn't enough sustanance for anyone. However, if you only have 8 people then it may be better for all (though the strongest will still get weaker).

Unfortunately, we have 50 people trying to share one pizza.

Pullinteeth
03-03-2013, 02:08 AM
It depends. If you've got 8 slices and 50 people you are ALL going to get weaker because there isn't enough sustanance for anyone. However, if you only have 8 people then it may be better for all (though the strongest will still get weaker).

Unfortunately, we have 50 people trying to share one pizza.

Don't forget the share that the gov takes before they divvy it up.... IMO, that is the portion that the Dept of Ag left out of their equasion...

Banned
03-03-2013, 02:11 AM
It depends. If you've got 8 slices and 50 people you are ALL going to get weaker because there isn't enough sustanance for anyone. However, if you only have 8 people then it may be better for all (though the strongest will still get weaker).

Unfortunately, we have 50 people trying to share one pizza.

JC would be so proud of you.

garhkal
03-03-2013, 07:10 AM
Don't forget the share that the gov takes before they divvy it up.... IMO, that is the portion that the Dept of Ag left out of their equasion...

True dat.. Plus even if what they take 'is slated' to go to others some gets wasted.

sandsjames
03-03-2013, 02:56 PM
JC would be so proud of you.

Old schtick...from the department of redundancy department.

Pullinteeth
03-03-2013, 04:47 PM
JC would be so proud of you.

J.C. Romero? Why?

sandsjames
03-03-2013, 07:58 PM
J.C. Romero? Why?

JC Penny...JC Whitney...or maybe Jay Zee. (Or Jay Zed, as they call him in England).

Banned
03-05-2013, 01:05 AM
Old schtick...from the department of redundancy department.

I just find it interesting America continues to be the most Christian country in the developed world, but has so systematically marginalized and dismissed all of his teachings.

TJMAC77SP
03-05-2013, 11:59 AM
I just find it interesting America continues to be the most Christian country in the developed world, but has so systematically marginalized and dismissed all of his teachings.

How do you figure we are "the most Christian country in the developed world"? What quantifies that? Say...compared to the UK, or France. Maybe Norway, or Denmark, Spain?

sandsjames
03-05-2013, 02:37 PM
I just find it interesting America continues to be the most Christian country in the developed world, but has so systematically marginalized and dismissed all of his teachings.

Not sure which teachings you are referring to. He teaches that I need to be compassionate to other people. I am that. I help out others quite regularly. He teaches that I have to realize that I'm not perfect...that I am a sinner...and should not be hypocritical about that, which I am not. I always pay my taxes, which is a requirement. What he doesn't teach is that I have to support any government redistribution of wealth. I'm unable to find that anywhere.

Forced "compassion" is not compassion. It's like comparing two airmen. One who volunteers because he likes to do it and the other who volunteers to help out his EPR. One who goes to school because he wants the education and wants to better himself while the other takes CLEPs in order to fill a block on the EPR.

When I buy a meal and a toy at Walmart and give it to a mother and her child sitting in the parking lot, I believe that is much more the intent of his teachings than my taxes being used to help support someone. Just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Banned
03-05-2013, 07:39 PM
Not sure which teachings you are referring to. He teaches that I need to be compassionate to other people. I am that. I help out others quite regularly. He teaches that I have to realize that I'm not perfect...that I am a sinner...and should not be hypocritical about that, which I am not. I always pay my taxes, which is a requirement. What he doesn't teach is that I have to support any government redistribution of wealth. I'm unable to find that anywhere.

Forced "compassion" is not compassion. It's like comparing two airmen. One who volunteers because he likes to do it and the other who volunteers to help out his EPR. One who goes to school because he wants the education and wants to better himself while the other takes CLEPs in order to fill a block on the EPR.

When I buy a meal and a toy at Walmart and give it to a mother and her child sitting in the parking lot, I believe that is much more the intent of his teachings than my taxes being used to help support someone. Just my opinion. I could be wrong.

And yet Jesus told us to pay our taxes... so much for the "forced redistribution of wealth" argument.

Furthermore - what happened before those nasty progressives forced the helpless rich people to put money towards social safety nets? If you couldn't afford food, you starved. If you couldn't afford medical care, you died. Your children died. This isn't theoretical... because that is exactly the nightmare America went through before these programs were put in place.

Heck, I recall quite a few of the first socialist movements were Christian. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism)Before of course the evangelicals brainwashed everyone into believing your material wealth is a yardstick of your piety.

MACHINE666
03-05-2013, 07:41 PM
Take away my guns, but don't take away my food stamps! Soylent Green is the cornerstone of every nutritious meal!

:D :D :D :D :D

garhkal
03-05-2013, 08:10 PM
Not sure which teachings you are referring to. He teaches that I need to be compassionate to other people. I am that. I help out others quite regularly. He teaches that I have to realize that I'm not perfect...that I am a sinner...and should not be hypocritical about that, which I am not. I always pay my taxes, which is a requirement. What he doesn't teach is that I have to support any government redistribution of wealth. I'm unable to find that anywhere.

Forced "compassion" is not compassion. It's like comparing two airmen. One who volunteers because he likes to do it and the other who volunteers to help out his EPR. One who goes to school because he wants the education and wants to better himself while the other takes CLEPs in order to fill a block on the EPR.

When I buy a meal and a toy at Walmart and give it to a mother and her child sitting in the parking lot, I believe that is much more the intent of his teachings than my taxes being used to help support someone. Just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Very well said.. Charity begins at home with what you do yourself. IMO it is not something that can be forced on you.. and if/when it does, it is imo no longer charity.

TJMAC77SP
03-05-2013, 08:29 PM
And yet Jesus told us to pay our taxes... so much for the "forced redistribution of wealth" argument.

Furthermore - what happened before those nasty progressives forced the helpless rich people to put money towards social safety nets? If you couldn't afford food, you starved. If you couldn't afford medical care, you died. Your children died. This isn't theoretical... because that is exactly the nightmare America went through before these programs were put in place.

Heck, I recall quite a few of the first socialist movements were Christian. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism)Before of course the evangelicals brainwashed everyone into believing your material wealth is a yardstick of your piety.

Joe, taxes as a concept is not redistribution of wealth. I suppose as it is practised here currently you could make that argument but not sure the is what Jesus preached about (although I plead ignorant as to what exactly you are referring to as I am not really a right wing Christian...I won't say nutjob).

sandsjames
03-05-2013, 09:20 PM
And yet Jesus told us to pay our taxes... so much for the "forced redistribution of wealth" argument.And I do pay my taxes and feel that everyone should pay more than we do. That has nothing to do, however, with helping someone out. The taxes should be for infrastructure and defense. The only taxes that we should pay that redistribute any wealth should be, if any, at the very local level.



Furthermore - what happened before those nasty progressives forced the helpless rich people to put money towards social safety nets? If you couldn't afford food, you starved. If you couldn't afford medical care, you died. Your children died. This isn't theoretical... because that is exactly the nightmare America went through before these programs were put in place. The nightmare of an America that was powerful, respected, educated, etc? The country that everyone wanted to emigrate to? It's a shame that people get sick and die, or starve, etc. No amount of socialism will fix that.


Heck, I recall quite a few of the first socialist movements were Christian. Before of course the evangelicals brainwashed everyone into believing your material wealth is a yardstick of your piety. I'm not sure what church you attended, but I've never been to one that talked about wealth this way. Not sure where you've been attending. And, for FUCKs sake, can you go one thread without trying to bash Christianity. I don't mind you disliking it, but it's the ONLY crutch you have for any argument. You've got nothing else. Is your mind that small? Are you that limited? It's really quite pathetic. I thought you had a little more game than that.

Banned
03-05-2013, 10:46 PM
And I do pay my taxes and feel that everyone should pay more than we do. That has nothing to do, however, with helping someone out. The taxes should be for infrastructure and defense. The only taxes that we should pay that redistribute any wealth should be, if any, at the very local level.

So where did Jesus say taxes should only be for infrastructure and defense? Furthermore - why even those two items?

How about law enforcement? Education? So pretty much, you oppose about 99% of the services you enjoy every day. Is that what you're saying?

I think everyone should be required to pay for their own defense. If you were't responsible enough to hire a militia to guard your house, and a foreign enemy comes in and burns it down, you deserved it.


The nightmare of an America that was powerful, respected, educated, etc? The country that everyone wanted to emigrate to?

Are you claiming we're not powerful anymore?

In the 1800s, less than 10% of Americans graduated high school... so much for "educated".

Are we less respected now than we used to be? Its true people are annoyed that we keep bombing and invading them, but that's a foreign policy issue, and by no means a new one.

Are you trying to claim that people don't emigrate here from the far corners of the earth anymore? Want to rethink that statement? Also note that so many people want to come here, our emigration policies are much stricter than they used to be.


It's a shame that people get sick and die, or starve, etc. No amount of socialism will fix that.

Well I'm glad you're so concerned about the problem. Its fortunate that despite all the naysayers, we have drastically improved our safety nets for the poor in the last 100 years. There's still hunger and illness, but in much smaller numbers.


I'm not sure what church you attended, but I've never been to one that talked about wealth this way. Not sure where you've been attending. And, for FUCKs sake, can you go one thread without trying to bash Christianity. I don't mind you disliking it, but it's the ONLY crutch you have for any argument. You've got nothing else. Is your mind that small? Are you that limited? It's really quite pathetic. I thought you had a little more game than that.

This is very interesting. I point out to you that Christians used to be socialists and actually give a shit about the poor... and that makes you angry. VERY interesting. Does that fact bother you?

sandsjames
03-05-2013, 11:44 PM
So where did Jesus say taxes should only be for infrastructure and defense? Furthermore - why even those two items?
How about law enforcement? Education? So pretty much, you oppose about 99% of the services you enjoy every day. Is that what you're saying? Those were two examples, not all encompassing. Holy shit dude. And I think I am going to go back and read all of your posts to figure out how many times you start your responses with the word "so" and end with "is that what you're saying?" I realize you can't actually reasonably respond so your only defense is to put words in my mouth.


I think everyone should be required to pay for their own defense. If you were't responsible enough to hire a militia to guard your house, and a foreign enemy comes in and burns it down, you deserved it. That seems fair to me. But it's your party who doesn't want me to be able to buy and possess the items I need for my own defense.




Are you claiming we're not powerful anymore? Again with the response in the form of a question. I'm saying that, militarily, we are powerful. However, relative to what we used in regards to finances, education, etc, we are lacking.


In the 1800s, less than 10% of Americans graduated high school... so much for "educated". I'm glad to know when you talk about people starving and dying you were talking about the 1800's. Way to keep it relevant.


Are we less respected now than we used to be? Its true people are annoyed that we keep bombing and invading them, but that's a foreign policy issue, and by no means a new one. Hell, Joe. You don't even respect the country and you're a citizen.


Are you trying to claim that people don't emigrate here from the far corners of the earth anymore? Want to rethink that statement? Also note that so many people want to come here, our emigration policies are much stricter than they used to be.Again with more questions and trying to put words in my mouth. Please show me where I said people don't emigrate to the U.S. anymore. My statement points out that the U.S. isn't as enticing as it used to be (for other than Mexicans).




Well I'm glad you're so concerned about the problem. Its fortunate that despite all the naysayers, we have drastically improved our safety nets for the poor in the last 100 years. There's still hunger and illness, but in much smaller numbers.So what you're saying is that we don't have social issues to worry about anymore? So you're saying that our policies have worked to stop hunger and illness? So you're trying to say that our government works like it's supposed to? Is that what you're saying?




This is very interesting. I point out to you that Christians used to be socialists and actually give a shit about the poor... and that makes you angry. VERY interesting. Does that fact bother you?No, what makes me angry is that it's the only crutch you have (other than, as you also did in this paragraph, putting words in my mouth). It's not anger I feel, Joe. It's disappointment. I really thought you were better than this. I really thought you were intelligent and could debate topics. It's fairly obvious that you are a one trick pony who can do nothing but try to twist everything someone else says into something that supports your point of view. Does that fact bother you? Is that what you're saying? So what you're saying is that you think everyone should be a Christian? If the government was ran by Christians then we wouldn't have any poor or sick? Is that what you're saying?

Banned
03-06-2013, 12:45 AM
Those were two examples, not all encompassing. Holy shit dude. And I think I am going to go back and read all of your posts to figure out how many times you start your responses with the word "so" and end with "is that what you're saying?" I realize you can't actually reasonably respond so your only defense is to put words in my mouth.

Nice way to dodge the question without even a pretense at trying to answer it.

Since we're discussing specifically the New Testament viewpoint on government... where did Jesus say defense/infrastructure are the only legitimate functions of government that can be funded with taxation?

Also note that even in the Old Testament it was mandated that the poor be fed with the wheat that accidentally fell on the ground during harvest... not to mention all debts were mandated to be forgiven every seven years. OMG socialism!


That seems fair to me. But it's your party who doesn't want me to be able to buy and possess the items I need for my own defense.

You think if you were allowed to buy your own assault weapons a military and police force would be unnecessary? That you could single-handedly fend off a foreign invasion? That if we removed the the thousands of National Guard and border patrol, and removed all police, that you could fight off the Mexican cartels? You're more delusional than I thought.

Yup. I can see it now. Fifty gang members surrounding your house shooting in through the windows, and you're saying "Good thing I was allowed to purchase these 30 round mags! Who needs big government anyways?"


Again with the response in the form of a question. I'm saying that, militarily, we are powerful. However, relative to what we used in regards to finances, education, etc, we are lacking.

Except our economy is larger than ever before. Yes, wages have stagnated and wealth has shifted upwards towards the top 1-4%... but I doubt that's a trend you would like to talk about.


I'm glad to know when you talk about people starving and dying you were talking about the 1800's. Way to keep it relevant.

I'm curious... when did you THINK I was talking about? You were griping about progressives (A movement that didn't start to gain a foothold until the early 20th century).


Hell, Joe. You don't even respect the country and you're a citizen.

I respect the good things America has done. Obviously I'm against the negative aspects... and I'm against the extremists who want to turn my country into Afghanistan.


Again with more questions and trying to put words in my mouth. Please show me where I said people don't emigrate to the U.S. anymore. My statement points out that the U.S. isn't as enticing as it used to be (for other than Mexicans).

I would LOVE to see some evidence to say that we aren't as enticing anymore. To that I say you're full of crap. There's highly educated hard-working people from around the world still coming here and wanting to come here.


So what you're saying is that we don't have social issues to worry about anymore? So you're saying that our policies have worked to stop hunger and illness? So you're trying to say that our government works like it's supposed to? Is that what you're saying?

We've improved... definitely doesn't mean we're perfect. But anyone who thinks that our safety nets haven't improved over the last 20, 50, and 100 years needs his head examined.


No, what makes me angry is that it's the only crutch you have (other than, as you also did in this paragraph, putting words in my mouth). It's not anger I feel, Joe. It's disappointment. I really thought you were better than this. I really thought you were intelligent and could debate topics. It's fairly obvious that you are a one trick pony who can do nothing but try to twist everything someone else says into something that supports your point of view. Does that fact bother you? Is that what you're saying? So what you're saying is that you think everyone should be a Christian? If the government was ran by Christians then we wouldn't have any poor or sick? Is that what you're saying?

I think Christianity in its uncorrupted form is an excellent belief system. What makes me angry is how prominent Christians twist Christ's teachings to support selfishness and disregard for our fellow human beings.

Banned
03-06-2013, 12:54 AM
Actually Sand, I'll have to take the hit on the "1800s" comment... I got this thread confused with our other argument about progressives.

sandsjames
03-06-2013, 01:26 AM
Since we're discussing specifically the New Testament viewpoint on government... where did Jesus say defense/infrastructure are the only legitimate functions of government that can be funded with taxation? And where did I say that? You will notice that my last post stated that I was only using examples and that those two were not all encompassing. But who am I telling? You don't actually need to read the post to respond to it.


Also note that even in the Old Testament it was mandated that the poor be fed with the wheat that accidentally fell on the ground during harvest... not to mention all debts were mandated to be forgiven every seven years. OMG socialism! The poor can have whatever food they want that I drop on the ground. I'm not going to eat it (unless I pick it up within 5 seconds).




You think if you were allowed to buy your own assault weapons a military and police force would be unnecessary? That you could single-handedly fend off a foreign invasion? That if we removed the the thousands of National Guard and border patrol, and removed all police, that you could fight off the Mexican cartels? You're more delusional than I thought.So you're saying you hate Mexicans? Why are you discriminating about Mexicans? Why do liberals hate Mexicans? Is that what you're saying?


Yup. I can see it now. Fifty gang members surrounding your house shooting in through the windows, and you're saying "Good thing I was allowed to purchase these 30 round mags! Who needs big government anyways?" Huh? I would never live in a gang neighborhood. I'm not THAT compassionate.




Except our economy is larger than ever before. Yes, wages have stagnated and wealth has shifted upwards towards the top 1-4%... but I doubt that's a trend you would like to talk about. I would love to discuss it but you'd turn it into a boring evil Christian conversation and we'd go in circles.


I respect the good things America has done. Obviously I'm against the negative aspects... and I'm against the extremists who want to turn my country into Afghanistan. We can agree on this. I am also against those same extremists who would like to be able to take more of my money from me while telling me what possessions I'm allowed to have.




I would LOVE to see some evidence to say that we aren't as enticing anymore. To that I say you're full of crap. There's highly educated hard-working people from around the world still coming here and wanting to come here. I have no stats. I have 12 years living overseas and seeing the change in attitude towards America. Of course there are people who still want to come here. Why do you think that is? It's not so they can give up 62% of their income to provide for everyone else. It's to get away from having to pay 80% elsewhere. But the majority of the people come here because it's the closest border to cross. If Mexico bordered Canada instead of the U.S the illegals would be more than happy to be moose farmers.




We've improved... definitely doesn't mean we're perfect. But anyone who thinks that our safety nets haven't improved over the last 20, 50, and 100 years needs his head examined. The safety nets may have improved but that doesn't mean the nation is better off. In fact, I'd say the improvement of the safety nets is inversely proportionate to the decline in several other areas (literacy, education, employment, etc).




I think Christianity in its uncorrupted form is an excellent belief system. What makes me angry is how prominent Christians twist Christ's teachings to support selfishness and disregard for our fellow human beings.The thing you don't seem to get, Joe, is that Christianity came into being BECAUSE people are selfish and disregard many things. If we made all the right choices He would not have had to give his life. To expect Christians do the right thing all the time is pointless. And to try to determine what those "right" things are is a waste of time. It's just annoying that you like to continually throw Christianity out there in a way that's supposed to guilt me into something. It's not going to work. Trust me. I know what my short comings are and I work on sorting those out on a daily basis.

Banned
03-06-2013, 01:48 AM
And where did I say that? You will notice that my last post stated that I was only using examples and that those two were not all encompassing. But who am I telling? You don't actually need to read the post to respond to it.

So when you said "The taxes should be for infrastructure and defense."... you were just kidding?


The poor can have whatever food they want that I drop on the ground. I'm not going to eat it (unless I pick it up within 5 seconds).

Then you are on par with a bronze age tribe 4 thousand years ago. Congratulations. Maybe someday you'll get to 1850.


So you're saying you hate Mexicans? Why are you discriminating about Mexicans? Why do liberals hate Mexicans? Is that what you're saying?

And you wonder why I think Christians are a complete fucking joke.


Huh? I would never live in a gang neighborhood. I'm not THAT compassionate.

Now... why do you think you don't live in a gang neighborhood? Could it be - GASP -because your neighborhood has an effective police force, and a good school system?

GENIUS


I would love to discuss it but you'd turn it into a boring evil Christian conversation and we'd go in circles.

Somehow this answer doens't surprise me.


We can agree on this. I am also against those same extremists who would like to be able to take more of my money from me while telling me what possessions I'm allowed to have.

It always comes back to your worldly possessions, doesn't it?


I have no stats. I have 12 years living overseas and seeing the change in attitude towards America. Of course there are people who still want to come here. Why do you think that is? It's not so they can give up 62% of their income to provide for everyone else. It's to get away from having to pay 80% elsewhere. But the majority of the people come here because it's the closest border to cross. If Mexico bordered Canada instead of the U.S the illegals would be more than happy to be moose farmers.

Oh god America is such a terrible place to live with all those horrible big government types giving us health care and public education.

http://web.mit.edu/cis/images/fpi/immigration/fig1.jpg

(And no - I'm not sure what that spike in the 90s was caused by)


The safety nets may have improved but that doesn't mean the nation is better off. In fact, I'd say the improvement of the safety nets is inversely proportionate to the decline in several other areas (literacy, education, employment, etc).

And I'm sure you have loads of evidence for that.


The thing you don't seem to get, Joe, is that Christianity came into being BECAUSE people are selfish and disregard many things. If we made all the right choices He would not have had to give his life. To expect Christians do the right thing all the time is pointless. And to try to determine what those "right" things are is a waste of time. It's just annoying that you like to continually throw Christianity out there in a way that's supposed to guilt me into something. It's not going to work. Trust me. I know what my short comings are and I work on sorting those out on a daily basis.

Actually I agree with this. If Christ came back, he'd probably get crucified again. "Give away your possessions and follow me" - could you IMAGINE how long he would last with talk like that?

sandsjames
03-06-2013, 01:56 PM
Oh god America is such a terrible place to live with all those horrible big government types giving us health care and public education.



I'm happy about this, Joe. This is the first time I've EVER seen you defend America at all. Of course it took me (the person you will disagree with no matter what) to take the stance you generally take about how bad America is, but it worked. I bet if I started talking about how bad Christians were you would work to prove me wrong. You are impressive.

TJMAC77SP
03-06-2013, 03:03 PM
I'm happy about this, Joe. This is the first time I've EVER seen you defend America at all. Of course it took me (the person you will disagree with no matter what) to take the stance you generally take about how bad America is, but it worked. I bet if I started talking about how bad Christians were you would work to prove me wrong. You are impressive.

You also got him to come down on the side of Jesus and Christianity (somewhat).

CYBERFX1024
03-06-2013, 03:45 PM
For the record..... I am all for Food Stamps if it goes to the people actually needing it and they use it for stuff that it is supposed to be used for. But what I am not in favor of it is people that don't need it but it, or people that get it and spend the food stamps alcohol, cigarettes, and various other non-related issues. I have actually seen people try to sell me some of there food stamps, and yes it does happen.

If you want to know how that happens then here it goes. Basically say someone has $200 in food stamps, they offer someone else the food stamps for cold cash. Then the original person goes to the store to get the items in the store, give them to person B. Then person A gets x amount of cash.

Pullinteeth
03-06-2013, 04:18 PM
Cue conservative outrage in 3... 2... 1... (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/28/do-food-stamps-make-america-stronger-the-usda-says-yes/)

Getting back on topic, are you insinuating that a Liberal wouldn't be smart enough to realize that the USDA only provided part of the equation then claimed to have solved it?

Banned
03-06-2013, 04:58 PM
I'm happy about this, Joe. This is the first time I've EVER seen you defend America at all. Of course it took me (the person you will disagree with no matter what) to take the stance you generally take about how bad America is, but it worked. I bet if I started talking about how bad Christians were you would work to prove me wrong. You are impressive.

Maybe eventually you'll understand that your religion does not own the country. I've never said I "hate America" like you claim - but I do hate how the Christian Taliban has dragged it through the mud.

And its good to see you finally realize that I have no issue with JC - I even like the guy. I do hate how his doctrine has been twisted into a propaganda tool by the evangelicals.


You also got him to come down on the side of Jesus and Christianity (somewhat).

As I've said before, I have NEVER had an issue with Jesus. Why this is just now dawning on you two is a mystery to me.

In fact, I do recall a bunch of people condemning me here a while back for citing the Bible in my arguments in favor of safety nets. LOL!

TJMAC77SP
03-06-2013, 05:34 PM
Maybe eventually you'll understand that your religion does not own the country. I've never said I "hate America" like you claim - but I do hate how the Christian Taliban has dragged it through the mud.

And its good to see you finally realize that I have no issue with JC - I even like the guy. I do hate how his doctrine has been twisted into a propaganda tool by the evangelicals.



As I've said before, I have NEVER had an issue with Jesus. Why this is just now dawning on you two is a mystery to me.

In fact, I do recall a bunch of people condemning me here a while back for citing the Bible in my arguments in favor of safety nets. LOL!

Joe, why is it you can post tongue in cheek (guns serving a purpose, assassinating public figures) but no one else can? Did ya' see "(somewhat)"?

No dawning and no mystery.

BTW: are you saying you believe in what Jesus preached?

MACHINE666
03-06-2013, 05:37 PM
When I go looking for dates at the supermarket, I always target the fat women with 3 - 5 children....white, black, or hispanic. Don't care. They're always a dead-ringer for food stamps! After I get done making sweet love to them in their trailer park bedroom, I roll over 3 times to get off them, and then go raid their fridge. Uncle Scam feeds them well, and since I don't wanna work anymore, I know where I can get a free meal and a place to sleep anytime I want! Last count I checked, I have 3 half-black babies, 3 white babies, and 5 half-hispanic babies, all with different women....

:D :D :D :D :D

Banned
03-06-2013, 05:38 PM
Joe, why is it you can post tongue in cheek (guns serving a purpose, assassinating public figures) but no one else can? Did ya' see "(somewhat)"?

No dawning and no mystery.

BTW: are you saying you believe in what Jesus preached?

Do I believe he is a god? No. Do I believe what he taught is (mostly) good for society? Certainly.

FYI - that wasn't tongue in cheek - citizens "self regulating" each other save a lot of trouble. Why intervene directly against trouble makers when fearful citizens will do the work for you?

garhkal
03-06-2013, 07:22 PM
And yet Jesus told us to pay our taxes... so much for the "forced redistribution of wealth" argument.

Did taxes back then go to pay for people to live off the government? Did it go for social safety nets?


And I do pay my taxes and feel that everyone should pay more than we do. That has nothing to do, however, with helping someone out. The taxes should be for infrastructure and defense. The only taxes that we should pay that redistribute any wealth should be, if any, at the very local level.

Very true.. Take a look at England for example.. One of the higher tax rates in the world from VAT/Income taxes, but also one of the higher levels of social programs. How is that NOT making taxes into redistribution of wealth?



This is very interesting. I point out to you that Christians used to be socialists and actually give a shit about the poor... and that makes you angry. VERY interesting. Does that fact bother you?

Christians still are. Most charities out there are church based or supported.. so are a good chunk of the soup kitchens.
Just cause christians don't want to support the waste that they see in the govt by giving higher taxes does NOT mean they don't give a shit about the poor. How long now have we had this supposed "war on poverty"?


You think if you were allowed to buy your own assault weapons a military and police force would be unnecessary? That you could single-handedly fend off a foreign invasion? That if we removed the the thousands of National Guard and border patrol, and removed all police, that you could fight off the Mexican cartels? You're more delusional than I thought.

Yup. I can see it now. Fifty gang members surrounding your house shooting in through the windows, and you're saying "Good thing I was allowed to purchase these 30 round mags! Who needs big government anyways?"

That actually made me almost cover my monitor in Dr pepper joe.. thanks.. Needed a laugh.


The safety nets may have improved but that doesn't mean the nation is better off. In fact, I'd say the improvement of the safety nets is inversely proportionate to the decline in several other areas (literacy, education, employment, etc).

IMO its also linked to the PCing up of society, to where people are all winners just for participating, no one gets offended etc.. we as a country have seemed to lost our drive that made us the best in the world at a lot of stuff.


For the record..... I am all for Food Stamps if it goes to the people actually needing it and they use it for stuff that it is supposed to be used for. But what I am not in favor of it is people that don't need it but it, or people that get it and spend the food stamps alcohol, cigarettes, and various other non-related issues. I have actually seen people try to sell me some of there food stamps, and yes it does happen.

If you want to know how that happens then here it goes. Basically say someone has $200 in food stamps, they offer someone else the food stamps for cold cash. Then the original person goes to the store to get the items in the store, give them to person B. Then person A gets x amount of cash.

well said. Some feel our disdain for the programs is NOT about all the waste/fraud/abuse of it that we want stopped/clamped down on, but that we hate the poor. When i see homeless if i have cash, i buy them food (rather than just giving them money). I have done a number of volunteer projects to help those less fortunate. Does not mean just cause i have heartache with the glut of people joining welfare/food stamps that i despise the poor.. Just those who freeload.

CYBERFX1024
03-06-2013, 08:43 PM
well said. Some feel our disdain for the programs is NOT about all the waste/fraud/abuse of it that we want stopped/clamped down on, but that we hate the poor. When i see homeless if i have cash, i buy them food (rather than just giving them money). I have done a number of volunteer projects to help those less fortunate. Does not mean just cause i have heartache with the glut of people joining welfare/food stamps that i despise the poor.. Just those who freeload.

Yes you are correct. I am all about helping people out when they are done, and I believe that karma is real. I have compassion for my fellow man/woman. But don't think my kindness is weakness. I have had the same man ask me 4 times in 3 months for money at a local supermarket, all the while giving me the same line "I just got out of such a such jail". I gave him money twice and after that never again.
I have to work for my money so you better work too.

Banned
03-06-2013, 09:03 PM
Did taxes back then go to pay for people to live off the government? Did it go for social safety nets?

Yes. Social safety nets date back to at least Babylon, possibly even earlier. Safety nets are arguably even more important in agriculture-based societies, when crop failures mean that at any given point, there's probably a group of people somewhere running out of food.

For a biblical example - remember Joseph stockpiling food in Egypt - to be distributed to the people in the event of a famine.


Very true.. Take a look at England for example.. One of the higher tax rates in the world from VAT/Income taxes, but also one of the higher levels of social programs. How is that NOT making taxes into redistribution of wealth?

How is it RE-distribution of wealth... as opposed to simply distribution of wealth?


Christians still are. Most charities out there are church based or supported.. so are a good chunk of the soup kitchens.
Just cause christians don't want to support the waste that they see in the govt by giving higher taxes does NOT mean they don't give a shit about the poor. How long now have we had this supposed "war on poverty"?

The majority of the population is still christian, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that the majority of charitable organizations are also influenced by such. But presuming this hypothesis is correct, then homelessness/poverty rates over time would be flat, correct? Regardless of government institutions intervention - the Christians would always take up the slack? Why is this not the case?


That actually made me almost cover my monitor in Dr pepper joe.. thanks.. Needed a laugh.

Glad to help. :D

garhkal
03-06-2013, 11:12 PM
Yes you are correct. I am all about helping people out when they are done, and I believe that karma is real. I have compassion for my fellow man/woman. But don't think my kindness is weakness. I have had the same man ask me 4 times in 3 months for money at a local supermarket, all the while giving me the same line "I just got out of such a such jail". I gave him money twice and after that never again.
I have to work for my money so you better work too.

I'd potentially have given him cash the first time.. BUT not the second... especially using the same damn line.


How is it RE-distribution of wealth... as opposed to simply distribution of wealth?

Its redistribution cause it takes from some to give to others... Where as with just distribution, each gets a share from the get go.


The majority of the population is still christian, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that the majority of charitable organizations are also influenced by such. But presuming this hypothesis is correct, then homelessness/poverty rates over time would be flat, correct? Regardless of government institutions intervention - the Christians would always take up the slack? Why is this not the case?

Honestly.. Unsure. Could be several reasons imo.
1) more homeless these days than before
2) more charities giving to the same spots, but ignoring others.
3) less people giving less to those charities..

Banned
03-07-2013, 12:50 AM
Its redistribution cause it takes from some to give to others... Where as with just distribution, each gets a share from the get go.

How is society taking from that person if it was society that gave him that money in the first place? No one would have money if society didn't exist.


Honestly.. Unsure. Could be several reasons imo.
1) more homeless these days than before
2) more charities giving to the same spots, but ignoring others.
3) less people giving less to those charities..

There probably are a lot more homeless people - due to most of the government funded mental institutions being shut down. Also part of the reason our prison population increased so much. The mentally disabled without immediate family willing and able to support them simply end up on the streets or in jail.

So why didn't Christians pick up the slack?

I by no means have an issue with private charity - religious or non-religious - its a good thing. But we need to stop pretending that private charity could even begin to replace actual nation-wide social safety nets.

TJMAC77SP
03-07-2013, 12:57 PM
How is society taking from that person if it was society that gave him that money in the first place? No one would have money if society didn't exist.



There probably are a lot more homeless people - due to most of the government funded mental institutions being shut down. Also part of the reason our prison population increased so much. The mentally disabled without immediate family willing and able to support them simply end up on the streets or in jail.

So why didn't Christians pick up the slack?

I by no means have an issue with private charity - religious or non-religious - its a good thing. But we need to stop pretending that private charity could even begin to replace actual nation-wide social safety nets.

I am going to ignore the first undecipherable part but Joe, PLEASE read some real and actual history please.

Here we have the inane and oft-repeated claim that the homeless problem is the result of the big mean government closing mental institutions. The intimation being that the evil elected officials just don't care about the crazy people. Not all homeless are mentally ill. In fact this organization (http://www.homelessofhc.org/index.php/get-educated-information-homelessness/causes-of-homelessness)shows it not to be a major factor at all (less than 8%).
It is a complex problems which you have once again tried to put in a very small box which predictably leads to blame for one or more of your favorite groups.

I am sure you heard a sound bite once and I am sure that someone pointed out the story of some homeless person who indeed was put out of a closed institution or since the institution was closed, had no alternative for care. Reminds me of the 84 year old man in SC who would have trouble getting a copy of his birth certificate so that PROVES that voter ID laws were unfair and designed to keep him from voting. Classic strawman argument.

Banned
03-07-2013, 05:11 PM
I am going to ignore the first undecipherable part but Joe, PLEASE read some real and actual history please.

Here we have the inane and oft-repeated claim that the homeless problem is the result of the big mean government closing mental institutions. The intimation being that the evil elected officials just don't care about the crazy people. Not all homeless are mentally ill. In fact this organization (http://www.homelessofhc.org/index.php/get-educated-information-homelessness/causes-of-homelessness)shows it not to be a major factor at all (less than 8%).
It is a complex problems which you have once again tried to put in a very small box which predictably leads to blame for one or more of your favorite groups.

I am sure you heard a sound bite once and I am sure that someone pointed out the story of some homeless person who indeed was put out of a closed institution or since the institution was closed, had no alternative for care. Reminds me of the 84 year old man in SC who would have trouble getting a copy of his birth certificate so that PROVES that voter ID laws were unfair and designed to keep him from voting. Classic strawman argument.

Nice bit of misdirection there. This post should actually be put in a textbook or something.

First off, you casually dismiss the fact that mental illness is a significant cause of homelessness... then provide absolutely no evidence or argument as to why - your only "proof" is a statistic about Hillsborough County, which you falsely claimed was the nationwide rate.

Then you set up a series of red herrings that nobody here said and then cleverly refuted them. Who said that ALL homeless are mentally ill? I didn't, and I don't think anyone else did either. And who said anything about a story about an 84 year old man? I didn't.

So in the end, you have once again succeeded in justifying inaction against a real problem... which is odd because I would think you of all people would want an aggressive solution against "threats" - I guess the only legitimate threat in your mind is third rate dictators trying to build chemical weapons in their attic.

TJMAC77SP
03-07-2013, 05:43 PM
Nice bit of misdirection there. This post should actually be put in a textbook or something.

First off, you casually dismiss the fact that mental illness is a significant cause of homelessness... then provide absolutely no evidence or argument as to why - your only "proof" is a statistic about Hillsborough County, which you falsely claimed was the nationwide rate.

Then you set up a series of red herrings that nobody here said and then cleverly refuted them. Who said that ALL homeless are mentally ill? I didn't, and I don't think anyone else did either. And who said anything about a story about an 84 year old man? I didn't.

So in the end, you have once again succeeded in justifying inaction against a real problem... which is odd because I would think you of all people would want an aggressive solution against "threats" - I guess the only legitimate threat in your mind is third rate dictators trying to build chemical weapons in their attic.

I apologize for the citation. I didn't read close enough. How about a national source (http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/why.html). You have to scroll down to the Other category to see mental health issues mentioned.

But, perhaps you can prove your assertion that….


How is society taking from that person if it was society that gave him that money in the first place? No one would have money if society didn't exist.

There probably are a lot more homeless people - due to most of the government funded mental institutions being shut down.

That would be a contributing factor not THE factor. Since you only mentioned that situation the intimation is that you think it is THE factor. Of course you are free to attempt to prove that.

This is a constant failure in your thinking. Picking and choosing which facts to present at cogent and relative.

And you know perfectly well why I referenced the Voter ID Law example. It is another example of a strawman argument which makes for good press but is hardly accurate or helpful in understanding the real problem and its causes.

Speaking of misdirection……………….(clever btw, attempting to turn my spotlighting your misdirection with like accusations against me).

I guess the only legitimate threat in your mind is third rate dictators trying to build chemical weapons in their attic.

Banned
03-07-2013, 06:01 PM
I apologize for the citation. I didn't read close enough. How about a national source (http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/why.html). You have to scroll down to the Other category to see mental health issues mentioned.

But, perhaps you can prove your assertion that….



That would be a contributing factor not THE factor. Since you only mentioned that situation the intimation is that you think it is THE factor. Of course you are free to attempt to prove that.

This is a constant failure in your thinking. Picking and choosing which facts to present at cogent and relative.

And you know perfectly well why I referenced the Voter ID Law example. It is another example of a strawman argument which makes for good press but is hardly accurate or helpful in understanding the real problem and its causes.

Speaking of misdirection……………….(clever btw, attempting to turn my spotlighting your misdirection with like accusations against me).

16%... sounds pretty high to me. And of course not even counting people who are not necessarily even diagnosed with an illness, but just low IQ.

And your own link seems to confirm this:


Approximately 16% of the single adult homeless population suffers from some form of severe and persistent mental illness (U.S. Conference of Mayors, 2005). Despite the disproportionate number of severely mentally ill people among the homeless population, increases in homelessness are not attributable to the release of severely mentally ill people from institutions. Most patients were released from mental hospitals in the 1950s and 1960s, yet vast increases in homelessness did not occur until the 1980s, when incomes and housing options for those living on the margins began to diminish rapidly. According to the 2003 U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Report, most homeless persons with mental illness do not need to be institutionalized, but can live in the community with the appropriate supportive housing options (U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 2003). However, many mentally ill homeless people are unable to obtain access to supportive housing and/or other treatment services. The mental health support services most needed include case management, housing, and treatment.

I can buy that. America used to be a place where anybody could support himself and family with hard work. Now that's no longer possible. Minimum wage is not a living wage... not even close. Which means - to put it bluntly - dumb people cannot support themselves.

And what makes it all the more interesting is these right wingers - these christians - condemning the poor for being "lazy" - which is total bullshit and another reason I don't take the religion seriously - its economic trends that are consistently fucking over the bottom 9 tenths of the population.

MACHINE666
03-07-2013, 07:01 PM
In these economically challenging times, you should not have to give up on your vices. It is well known that most strippers and hookers live on food stamps too, so why not see if you can subtitute yours for money or drugs? Most strippers should have a fair exchange rate for dollars to food-stamp ratio, and if you're friendly with the local neighborhood pimp in your projects or trailer park, then see what he can manage! It sure beats stealing hub caps and AM car stereos in order to get a lap dance or a beej, that's for sure!

:D :D :D :D :D

TJMAC77SP
03-07-2013, 08:19 PM
16%... sounds pretty high to me. And of course not even counting people who are not necessarily even diagnosed with an illness, but just low IQ.

And your own link seems to confirm this:



I can buy that. America used to be a place where anybody could support himself and family with hard work. Now that's no longer possible. Minimum wage is not a living wage... not even close. Which means - to put it bluntly - dumb people cannot support themselves.

And what makes it all the more interesting is these right wingers - these christians - condemning the poor for being "lazy" - which is total bullshit and another reason I don't take the religion seriously - its economic trends that are consistently fucking over the bottom 9 tenths of the population.

Why did I know that you would find any percentage as 'pretty high'? I am in truth Carnac the Magnificent.

And..........the portion you quoted had ZERO to do with the closing of a single mental health facility. Are we now discussing yet another of the many factors contributing to homelessness?

Finally, yet another completely irrelevant swipe at Christians.

Banned
03-07-2013, 08:38 PM
Why did I know that you would find any percentage as 'pretty high'? I am in truth Carnac the Magnificent.

And..........the portion you quoted had ZERO to do with the closing of a single mental health facility. Are we now discussing yet another of the many factors contributing to homelessness?

Okay, so how does this have "zero" to do with homelessness? Seems perfectly obvious - there's no care available for the simple minded, and there's no jobs they can do to earn a living on their own.

Also worth noting more than half of our prison population is mentally ill. (http://www.hrw.org/news/2006/09/05/us-number-mentally-ill-prisons-quadrupled)

Seems to me you're once again attempting to muddy the waters to conceal obvious fact, instead proposing inaction and that we simply ignore it.


Finally, yet another completely irrelevant swipe at Christians.

When they stop filling the interwebz, Fox, and radio with their hateful trash about the misfortunate, I'll stop taking swipes at them.

Greg
03-07-2013, 09:04 PM
Also worth noting more than half of our prison population is mentally ill. (http://www.hrw.org/news/2006/09/05/us-number-mentally-ill-prisons-quadrupled)


Yes, this is true, especially if one is to consider alcohol and drug abuse as mental illness, which it is.

Every corrections facility has twelve-step groups that regularly schedule daily meetings. Most inmates do attend, if just to have something to do till the next meal is served.

Some do take the programs to heart. About fifty percent relapse upon release from the institution. Of the ones who relapse, half will find their way back into the "rooms."

giggawatt
03-08-2013, 11:54 AM
So when you said "The taxes should be for infrastructure and defense."... you were just kidding?



Then you are on par with a bronze age tribe 4 thousand years ago. Congratulations. Maybe someday you'll get to 1850.



And you wonder why I think Christians are a complete fucking joke.



Now... why do you think you don't live in a gang neighborhood? Could it be - GASP -because your neighborhood has an effective police force, and a good school system?

GENIUS



Somehow this answer doens't surprise me.



It always comes back to your worldly possessions, doesn't it?



Oh god America is such a terrible place to live with all those horrible big government types giving us health care and public education.

http://web.mit.edu/cis/images/fpi/immigration/fig1.jpg

(And no - I'm not sure what that spike in the 90s was caused by)



And I'm sure you have loads of evidence for that.



Actually I agree with this. If Christ came back, he'd probably get crucified again. "Give away your possessions and follow me" - could you IMAGINE how long he would last with talk like that?

I'm gonna throw out a guess to the spike in the 90s. Maybe after the fall of the Iron Curtain, many people that lived in Easter Bloc nations were allowed to leave the shit holes that communism left them in. (I didn't read the rest of the thread so far so this might have been answered.) Just a guess.

Banned
03-08-2013, 05:03 PM
I'm gonna throw out a guess to the spike in the 90s. Maybe after the fall of the Iron Curtain, many people that lived in Easter Bloc nations were allowed to leave the shit holes that communism left them in. (I didn't read the rest of the thread so far so this might have been answered.) Just a guess.

That is actually a REALLY good guess, that's probably what happened!

sandsjames
03-08-2013, 05:32 PM
I can buy that. America used to be a place where anybody could support himself and family with hard work. Now that's no longer possible. Minimum wage is not a living wage... not even close. Which means - to put it bluntly - dumb people cannot support themselves.



You're right. A person would find it extremely difficult to survive on a minimum wage job. However, they could survive much better with TWO minimum wage jobs. A report on the radio was talking about this very issue this morning. What separates immigrants from citizens is that the immigrants (whether from Mexico or Eastern Europe) will move here and work two jobs. Shitty jobs? Yes. But they want to achieve better. They came here believing in the "American Dream" and are going to do whatever it takes to try to achieve it. I'll bet you'll be hard pressed to find an American Citizen living in poverty who is more willing to work as many jobs as it takes to survive. It shows the difference in the work ethic and expectations of Americans. We want the results without putting in the effort.

bluecyclone1
03-08-2013, 05:34 PM
USDA endorses the benefits of a program they manage................

Why would there be outrage or surprise at all?

Posts like this is why you get called a troll Joe.

BTW: The food stamp program, like most entitlement programs is great and needed. What people of your ilk like to ignore when raging against conservatives is that the average opponent to the programs is really opposed to the abuse of the systems not the programs themselves. Of course it makes for a better visual to show children and the elderly when talking about how the big, bad, evil wolves (everyone who doesn't agree with you) wants to 'change X program as we know it". Some here have even claimed that the programs are in danger of being eliminated totally if the GOP were to come to power.

Of course, obviously these tactics generally work which is the saddest thing of all.

Probably thinks it's some sort of Israeli conspiracy to infiltrate and control the economy too. You know, those evil Jews and their money grubbing. Oy vey!!

bluecyclone1
03-08-2013, 05:37 PM
I'm gonna throw out a guess to the spike in the 90s. Maybe after the fall of the Iron Curtain, many people that lived in Easter Bloc nations were allowed to leave the shit holes that communism left them in. (I didn't read the rest of the thread so far so this might have been answered.) Just a guess.

NAFTA. Once they opened the borders, you couldn't keep the wal-marts on the border towns stocked well enough, and suddenly the dairies had more people than they could shake a stick at to milk cows.

bluecyclone1
03-08-2013, 05:39 PM
In these economically challenging times, you should not have to give up on your vices. It is well known that most strippers and hookers live on food stamps too, so why not see if you can subtitute yours for money or drugs? Most strippers should have a fair exchange rate for dollars to food-stamp ratio, and if you're friendly with the local neighborhood pimp in your projects or trailer park, then see what he can manage! It sure beats stealing hub caps and AM car stereos in order to get a lap dance or a beej, that's for sure!

:D :D :D :D :D

Charity begins at home!! LOL

Pullinteeth
03-08-2013, 06:04 PM
You're right. A person would find it extremely difficult to survive on a minimum wage job. However, they could survive much better with TWO minimum wage jobs. A report on the radio was talking about this very issue this morning. What separates immigrants from citizens is that the immigrants (whether from Mexico or Eastern Europe) will move here and work two jobs. Shitty jobs? Yes. But they want to achieve better. They came here believing in the "American Dream" and are going to do whatever it takes to try to achieve it. I'll bet you'll be hard pressed to find an American Citizen living in poverty who is more willing to work as many jobs as it takes to survive. It shows the difference in the work ethic and expectations of Americans. We want the results without putting in the effort.

I don't know about that. As someone that was broke and homeless, I did whatever I had to do to make ends meet. I had two jobs (one paid minimum wage, the other less than minimum wage). When it comes to those on the dole so to speak, I don't even mind if they only work one job or are just actively looking for work. I see nothing wrong with the Gov helping them out. What I do have a problem with is those that don't work and don't intend to work and live off the Gov. While I don't know what percentage of those on the dole that would be, they seem to be the ones that get all the press. For all I know, it might be a very low percentage.

sandsjames
03-08-2013, 06:14 PM
I don't know about that. As someone that was broke and homeless, I did whatever I had to do to make ends meet. I had two jobs (one paid minimum wage, the other less than minimum wage). When it comes to those on the dole so to speak, I don't even mind if they only work one job or are just actively looking for work. I see nothing wrong with the Gov helping them out. What I do have a problem with is those that don't work and don't intend to work and live off the Gov. While I don't know what percentage of those on the dole that would be, they seem to be the ones that get all the press. For all I know, it might be a very low percentage.

I agree with you completely. I was speaking in generalizations. As you said, the thing is that you were working towards getting out of it. Too many don't.

Banned
03-08-2013, 07:12 PM
You're right. A person would find it extremely difficult to survive on a minimum wage job. However, they could survive much better with TWO minimum wage jobs. A report on the radio was talking about this very issue this morning. What separates immigrants from citizens is that the immigrants (whether from Mexico or Eastern Europe) will move here and work two jobs. Shitty jobs? Yes. But they want to achieve better. They came here believing in the "American Dream" and are going to do whatever it takes to try to achieve it. I'll bet you'll be hard pressed to find an American Citizen living in poverty who is more willing to work as many jobs as it takes to survive. It shows the difference in the work ethic and expectations of Americans. We want the results without putting in the effort.

lol wow and you accuse ME of hating America. Do you really have nothing but contempt for Americans' work ethic?

sandsjames
03-08-2013, 07:55 PM
lol wow and you accuse ME of hating America. Do you really have nothing but contempt for Americans' work ethic?

Yes, Joe. I DO have a contempt for the work ethic of many Americans. I also have a contempt for the people who accept that lack of work ethic from others.

Banned
03-08-2013, 10:12 PM
Yes, Joe. I DO have a contempt for the work ethic of many Americans. I also have a contempt for the people who accept that lack of work ethic from others.

Then you have my pity.

sandsjames
03-08-2013, 10:21 PM
Then you have my pity.

Now I will be able to sleep.

Banned
03-08-2013, 10:31 PM
For someone who hates himself and his own social class, you seem pretty at ease.

sandsjames
03-08-2013, 10:49 PM
For someone who hates himself and his own social class, you seem pretty at ease.

I'm guessing this is targeted at me? Can you expand on why you think I hate myself and my "social class" (whatever that means)?

Banned
03-10-2013, 02:00 AM
Seriously? You are always the first to condemn your peers as "lazy" - you're not only okay with your family being uninsured (and liable to become a burden on the taxpayer), but actually PROUD of it - you scoff at the idea of giving your peers any type of assistance -

Face it - you hate yourself.

sandsjames
03-10-2013, 12:30 PM
Seriously? You are always the first to condemn your peers as "lazy" - you're not only okay with your family being uninsured (and liable to become a burden on the taxpayer), but actually PROUD of it - you scoff at the idea of giving your peers any type of assistance -

Face it - you hate yourself.

Right, because being proud that my family is able to support themselves instead of relying on government assistance must HAS to mean I hate myself. Makes perfect sense. And please look back at my posts. I've stated several times that I fully support welfare/social assistance until it is misused.

As far as self hate goes, I think that lies with someone who is ashamed to be a middle class white male and constantly feels the need to apologize for it.

Pullinteeth
03-11-2013, 07:44 PM
I agree with you completely. I was speaking in generalizations. As you said, the thing is that you were working towards getting out of it. Too many don't.

Was reading an article about how the fastest growing job pays crap and came across this;

Under these conditions, it's no surprise then that about 40% of home aides rely on public assistance, such as Medicaid and food stamps, just to get by.

Thought "Hey, here is an example of those on welfare working and working a pretty important job... Then...

A recent study by the Institute for Women's Policy Research estimates immigrants make up 28% of home health care workers, and of those, one in five are undocumented.

So that kind of validates your point about immigrants working shyte jobs....

The Census Bureau has found that 53% of home health aides are minorities. By their calculations, it is the single most common job for black women, who alone represent nearly a third of the entire profession.

Apparently a good source of employment for minorities too....
Maybe not relevant and doesn't give any REAL information but it does show that some people will work a job even if it doesn't pay well-either to be working or because they like the work....

http://money.cnn.com/2013/03/11/news/economy/fastest-growing-job/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

sandsjames
03-12-2013, 05:20 AM
Was reading an article about how the fastest growing job pays crap and came across this;

Under these conditions, it's no surprise then that about 40% of home aides rely on public assistance, such as Medicaid and food stamps, just to get by.

Thought "Hey, here is an example of those on welfare working and working a pretty important job... Then...

A recent study by the Institute for Women's Policy Research estimates immigrants make up 28% of home health care workers, and of those, one in five are undocumented.

So that kind of validates your point about immigrants working shyte jobs....

The Census Bureau has found that 53% of home health aides are minorities. By their calculations, it is the single most common job for black women, who alone represent nearly a third of the entire profession.

Apparently a good source of employment for minorities too....
Maybe not relevant and doesn't give any REAL information but it does show that some people will work a job even if it doesn't pay well-either to be working or because they like the work....

http://money.cnn.com/2013/03/11/news/economy/fastest-growing-job/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Good stats. Great to see. And I'd bet those immigrants are probably working more than one of those jobs.

Not only a good source of employment for minorities, but whites too (by my math 47%, assuming the immigrants are considered minorities). Welfare is an awesome thing for the people you've mentioned here. That's what it's designed for.

Now, I'm curious as to the stats of those who have quit jobs, or quit looking for jobs, because the government aide pays more (or similar) money.

If there is someone working a job that isn't paying enough to survive, they deserve to get the aide. They are earning it. They are contributing. I will willingly give up my tax money, without a second thought, for everyone on that list.

garhkal
03-12-2013, 05:33 AM
Nice rundown on some figures/stats PT.

Robert F. Dorr
03-12-2013, 09:39 AM
Yes, Joe. I DO have a contempt for the work ethic of many Americans. I also have a contempt for the people who accept that lack of work ethic from others.

You're right but it's hard because that lack is so widespread.

sandsjames
03-12-2013, 12:40 PM
You're right but it's hard because that lack is so widespread.


It is. And it's not just those without job. The work ethic, or lack thereof, of many people people who actually HAVE jobs. People I work with on a daily basis. And I'm not exempt. I'm sure my father's generation would deem my work ethic very poor and, in comparison, I could not argue the point.

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-12-2013, 05:21 PM
I just find it interesting America continues to be the most Christian country in the developed world, but has so systematically marginalized and dismissed all of his teachings.

What teachings are you talking about? JC passed up pleanty of beggers on the street who were not willing to do for themselves because someone else would do it for them.

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-12-2013, 05:28 PM
And yet Jesus told us to pay our taxes... so much for the "forced redistribution of wealth" argument.

Furthermore - what happened before those nasty progressives forced the helpless rich people to put money towards social safety nets? If you couldn't afford food, you starved. If you couldn't afford medical care, you died. Your children died. This isn't theoretical... because that is exactly the nightmare America went through before these programs were put in place.

Heck, I recall quite a few of the first socialist movements were Christian. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism)Before of course the evangelicals brainwashed everyone into believing your material wealth is a yardstick of your piety.
Actually now because of the government, it costs more for those things and more people "need" help. Its a spiral out of control because of government. There are still people that dies of starvation and lack of medical care, government hasnt cured that.

TJMAC77SP
03-13-2013, 11:37 AM
Okay, so how does this have "zero" to do with homelessness? Seems perfectly obvious - there's no care available for the simple minded, and there's no jobs they can do to earn a living on their own.


It has zero to do with proving this asinine assertion..............



There probably are a lot more homeless people - due to most of the government funded mental institutions being shut down............

(which you really knew already)


Also worth noting more than half of our prison population is mentally ill. (http://www.hrw.org/news/2006/09/05/us-number-mentally-ill-prisons-quadrupled)

Seems to me you're once again attempting to muddy the waters to conceal obvious fact, instead proposing inaction and that we simply ignore it.


There is no muddying of anything on my side. There is you attempting to back away from yet another unsupported assertion.



When they stop filling the interwebz, Fox, and radio with their hateful trash about the misfortunate, I'll stop taking swipes at them.

Could you point out some of the 'trash' that Christians as a whole say about the 'misfortunate'?

JD2780
03-13-2013, 11:53 AM
It has zero to do with proving this asinine assertion..............




(which you really knew already)




There is no muddying of anything on my side. There is you attempting to back away from yet another unsupported assertion.




Could you point out some of the 'trash' that Christians as a whole say about the 'misfortunate'?

Hes referring to the many soup kitchens and homeless shelters ran be religious organizations. That trash. Also how many large churches in large cities keep doors open at night to allow homeless to sleep in there. Once again, that trash. Joe hates religion and religious folks.

bluecyclone1
03-13-2013, 02:17 PM
Hes referring to the many soup kitchens and homeless shelters ran be religious organizations. That trash. Also how many large churches in large cities keep doors open at night to allow homeless to sleep in there. Once again, that trash. Joe hates religion and religious folks.

Methinks he's been hanging around Berkley a little too much. They love to hate there.

JD2780
03-13-2013, 02:58 PM
Methinks he's been hanging around Berkley a little too much. They love to hate there.

That is correct. He threw a fit yesterday after I asked a question because I truly didnt know. Then went on a rant.

Greg
03-13-2013, 03:19 PM
Actually now because of the government, it costs more for those things and more people "need" help. Its a spiral out of control because of government. There are still people that dies of starvation and lack of medical care, government hasnt cured that.

At one time, there was over two hundred beds available for those in need of detoxification from alcohol and drug abuse in northeastern Ohio. This was about a decade ago. Since that time there has been federal grant money that the Alcohol Drug Abuse and Mental Health Services of Cuyahoga County has utilized to cover the cost of those who are unable to afford their own detox. But since the feds have supplied monies, they have also required x-amount of paperwork. As of this day, there now fourty-four beds between three facilities for the detoxification of substance abuse.

Each new intake (prospective client) that is welcomed in, and after seeing the on-duty nurse, spends approximately a half an hour to forty-five minutes going through twenty-seven forms to "John Hancock" before that new individual is able to begin the process of detox.

TJMAC77SP
03-13-2013, 04:25 PM
At one time, there was over two hundred beds available for those in need of detoxification from alcohol and drug abuse in northeastern Ohio. This was about a decade ago. Since that time there has been federal grant money that the Alcohol Drug Abuse and Mental Health Services of Cuyahoga County has utilized to cover the cost of those who are unable to afford their own detox. But since the feds have supplied monies, they have also required x-amount of paperwork. As of this day, there now fourty-four beds between three facilities for the detoxification of substance abuse.

Each new intake (prospective client) that is welcomed in, and after seeing the on-duty nurse, spends approximately a half an hour to forty-five minutes going through twenty-seven forms to "John Hancock" before that new individual is able to begin the process of detox.

So, is your assertion that the reduction in beds is from the federally required paperwork?

sandsjames
03-13-2013, 04:53 PM
So, is your assertion that the reduction in beds is from the federally required paperwork?Probably more to do with insurance issues than anything else. I'd imagine the forms are even a result of insurance coverage.

Pullinteeth
03-13-2013, 05:22 PM
Actually now because of the government, it costs more for those things and more people "need" help. Its a spiral out of control because of government. There are still people that dies of starvation and lack of medical care, government hasnt cured that.

No, no, no... If you don't count what it costs the government to do things FOR you, it actually benefits the economy to have the government do things for you...

bluecyclone1
03-13-2013, 07:44 PM
That is correct. He threw a fit yesterday after I asked a question because I truly didnt know. Then went on a rant.

Definitely a Berkley-eske move. Must be in a PhD program there. PhD in this instance meaning Piled higher and Deeper.

JD2780
03-13-2013, 09:28 PM
Definitely a Berkley-eske move. Must be in a PhD program there. PhD in this instance meaning Piled higher and Deeper.

Sometimes confused with a "Playa Hater Degree"

Greg
03-13-2013, 09:53 PM
So, is your assertion that the reduction in beds is from the federally required paperwork?

Besides local, there's county, state, and federal paperwork. Redundancy at its finest!

Granted, the person requiring detox will be housed for a period of time, it's the additional cost of administrative tasks, and communication issues between the parties involved.

Banned
03-14-2013, 10:49 PM
At one time, there was over two hundred beds available for those in need of detoxification from alcohol and drug abuse in northeastern Ohio. This was about a decade ago. Since that time there has been federal grant money that the Alcohol Drug Abuse and Mental Health Services of Cuyahoga County has utilized to cover the cost of those who are unable to afford their own detox. But since the feds have supplied monies, they have also required x-amount of paperwork. As of this day, there now fourty-four beds between three facilities for the detoxification of substance abuse.

Each new intake (prospective client) that is welcomed in, and after seeing the on-duty nurse, spends approximately a half an hour to forty-five minutes going through twenty-seven forms to "John Hancock" before that new individual is able to begin the process of detox.

Without being too familiar with the situation - I would suggest it probably has more to do with increased cost of living, and a much weaker economy. I know a lot of shelters on the west coast started charging fees or closing down altogether in recent years.


Which is very interesting, because a lot of people were claiming that tax cuts would give rich people more money to donate... which somehow never materialized when it was actually needed.

That is correct. He threw a fit yesterday after I asked a question because I truly didnt know. Then went on a rant.

TJMAC77SP
03-15-2013, 12:00 PM
Which is very interesting, because a lot of people were claiming that tax cuts would give rich people more money to donate... which somehow never materialized when it was actually needed.

Actually charitable giving (http://www.nptrust.org/philanthropic-resources/charitable-giving-statistics) rose in the years 2003-2007, dipped slightly in 2008 and has now reached about where it started in 2001.

It tends to rise and fall with the economy and personal income.

Banned
03-15-2013, 03:52 PM
Actually charitable giving (http://www.nptrust.org/philanthropic-resources/charitable-giving-statistics) rose in the years 2003-2007, dipped slightly in 2008 and has now reached about where it started in 2001.

It tends to rise and fall with the economy and personal income.

Oh cool... you mean kinda like what I just said:

"I would suggest it probably has more to do with increased cost of living, and a much weaker economy."

TJMAC77SP
03-15-2013, 04:33 PM
Oh cool... you mean kinda like what I just said:

"I would suggest it probably has more to do with increased cost of living, and a much weaker economy."

Except that as usual you threw in a little barb at the 'tax decrease crowd'............didn't think that would slip by did ya'?

The rest of your post...........


....Which is very interesting, because a lot of people were claiming that tax cuts would give rich people more money to donate... which somehow never materialized when it was actually needed.

And.........charitable giving did 'materialize' so your statement was incorrect (which was my point)

BTW: Wouldn't the reduction in beds be a result of ‘the government’?


………….There probably are a lot more homeless people - due to most of the government funded mental institutions being shut down. ……

Banned
03-15-2013, 04:51 PM
Except that as usual you threw in a little barb at the 'tax decrease crowd'............didn't think that would slip by did ya'?

The rest of your post...........



And.........charitable giving did 'materialize' so your statement was incorrect (which was my point)

BTW: Wouldn't the reduction in beds be a result of ‘the government’?

You forgot the rest of my post:

which somehow never materialized when it was actually needed.

Isn't there some torture porn you should be watching right now?

TJMAC77SP
03-15-2013, 07:27 PM
You forgot the rest of my post:

which somehow never materialized when it was actually needed.

Isn't there some torture porn you should be watching right now?

Oh, I see. So I was completely off base and your post wasn't intended at another stick in the eye to the GOP?

Torture porn....interesting. I assume you have watched some because I have never heard of that particular genre.