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MajesticThunder
02-26-2013, 11:03 PM
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/02/26/7-things-that-must-be-at-top-hagel-to-do-list/#ixzz2M357rlHS


Great proposals. :thumb

Robert F. Dorr
02-27-2013, 12:08 AM
I would like the members of this Forum to list things they'd like the new Secretary of Defense to do. If you could sit down with Chuck Hagel for five minutes, what would you say to him?

BURAWSKI
02-27-2013, 12:30 AM
We need a defense strategy. We don't have one. We cannot be the 911 police force for the world. It isn't the military's job to nation build. Also, I'd like to know why we have all of these bases in Europe. The Cold War ended in 1991 but the military has conducted itself like nothing happened.

grimreaper
02-27-2013, 12:30 AM
I would like the members of this Forum to list things they'd like the new Secretary of Defense to do. If you could sit down with Chuck Hagel for five minutes, what would you say to him?

Ask him what our position on Iran is? LOL. Ask him why he wouldn't disclose potential foreign financial conflicts of interest?

“I support the president’s strong position on containment” of Iran, Hagel said early in the session, appearing to endorse a policy President Barack Obama has rejected in favor of declaring that the U.S. will not tolerate Iran getting nuclear weapons.

A short time later, Hagel said he’d been handed a note and wanted to correct his answer. “If I said that, I meant to say that obviously — his position on containment — we don’t have a position on containment.”

Sensing that even Hagel’s clarification fell short of fully clarifying the point, Armed Services Committee Chairman Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.) jumped in.

“Just to make sure your correction is clear, we do have a position on containment — which is we do not favor containment,” Levin noted.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/five-takeaways-from-the-chuck-hagel-hearing-87044.html

Robert F. Dorr
02-27-2013, 01:33 AM
We need a defense strategy. We don't have one. We cannot be the 911 police force for the world. It isn't the military's job to nation build. Also, I'd like to know why we have all of these bases in Europe. The Cold War ended in 1991 but the military has conducted itself like nothing happened.

I've got an idea. Why don't we read the Constitution? It refers to the common defense. It doesn't say anything about using the military to liberate Afghan women or to prevent people from growing opium poppies or to defend Israel. The common defense. Pull all forces back to U.S. soil, shift to a reliance on long-range, land based air power, and quit trying to be a world power.

efmbman
02-27-2013, 01:43 AM
I've got an idea. Why don't we read the Constitution? It refers to the common defense. It doesn't say anything about using the military to liberate Afghan women or to prevent people from growing opium poppies or to defend Israel. The common defense. Pull all forces back to U.S. soil, shift to a reliance on long-range, land based air power, and quit trying to be a world power.

"Common defense" can be subjective. I bet if you polled 100 people on what "common defense" is, you would get 70 different answers (certainly a few would agree). More importantly, I would imagine there would be very different opinions from Congress and the White House. I agree with redeploying all U.S. forces back to U.S. soil.

grimreaper
02-27-2013, 01:45 AM
I've got an idea. Why don't we read the Constitution? It refers to the common defense. It doesn't say anything about using the military to liberate Afghan women or to prevent people from growing opium poppies or to defend Israel. The common defense. Pull all forces back to U.S. soil, shift to a reliance on long-range, land based air power, and quit trying to be a world power.

If we were actually following the Constitution instead of just reading it, there's a lot of things we wouldn't be doing that we are. We might as well just cut the 10th Amendment since it's widely ignored anyway.

Jamethon
02-27-2013, 01:49 AM
I've got an idea. Why don't we read the Constitution? It refers to the common defense. It doesn't say anything about using the military to liberate Afghan women or to prevent people from growing opium poppies or to defend Israel. The common defense. Pull all forces back to U.S. soil, shift to a reliance on long-range, land based air power, and quit trying to be a world power.

The best comparison I heard to our current situation is comparing the United States to Michael Moore (filmmaker). He has been so infatuated with helping other people that he has let himself go physically (and probably mentally). He needs to take a step back and reevaluate his personal life before getting involved with other people's issues. I think the United States needs to focus more on our homeland, and protecting OURSELVES before venturing out to help others. We have become fat and lazy and will soon not have enough money to really have as strong of a military as we want. Our country was at it's best when we lived in isolation and refused to get involved in other country's issues.

After all, doesn't the Taliban (not Al Qaeda) hate us because we are occupying their land? All of their attacks stem from us not leaving the middle east. That can't keep being our excuse.

imnohero
02-27-2013, 05:48 AM
I would like the members of this Forum to list things they'd like the new Secretary of Defense to do. If you could sit down with Chuck Hagel for five minutes, what would you say to him?

1. Cancel the F35, it is a failed program.
2. Bar all field grade officers from serving in any capacity for defense firms
3. Stop thinking in terms of empire, cold war, and being a global power for "good." Then reevaluate our acquisition programs.
4. Stop the "spend it or lose it" budgeting process.

That should be plenty to get done in 4 years.

Drackore
02-27-2013, 05:52 AM
Start cutting from the top, where mots of the waste exists and occurs. 25% of all General Officers and GS15+ positions automatic. 25% reduction of all staff positions. Automatic, nonnegotiable, no escape clauses.

Secondly, hold these General Officers to a higher standard. When they slip and fall...don't rescue them, put an arm around them, and relocate them. You punish them, harshly. Top leaders screwing up should NEVER be given the cushy treatment that they get.

Finally, I would tell him that the Pentagon and State Depts need to reevaluate how they SOFA and contract employment with host country nationals on overseas bases. Here in Germany, the Commissary employs X number of Germans. If a German is "stressed out" and they go to a doctor, they get paid time off for being stressed out or anxiety....as long as they *need* to be off - WITH PAY! During this pre-sequestration panic, the Commissary here cut all part timers hours down to the original "guarantee" in their contracts - 20 hrs. My wife was working mid30s, as well as the other part timers. Now they are not renewing contracts for full timers...American full timers. The Germans are safe.

That is literally taking American dollars out of the American economy. We're throwing money away. If we are doing this at DeCa overseas - what are we doing elsewhere?

Seriously, if we're going to try to "save money", we start with the local nationals first, then pinch American families...not the other way around!

Sergeant eNYgma
02-27-2013, 03:48 PM
Agree wit alot of that Drackore especially the part about the Generals and GS whoever the hell running around. We don't need all of that...way too top heavy we've become. We don't need Staff Cars either for anyone imo, drive your own car.

Rainmaker
02-27-2013, 04:28 PM
1. Cancel the F35, it is a failed program.
2. Bar all field grade officers from serving in any capacity for defense firms
3. Stop thinking in terms of empire, cold war, and being a global power for "good." Then reevaluate our acquisition programs.
4. Stop the "spend it or lose it" budgeting process.

That should be plenty to get done in 4 years.

A SECDEF can't do any of that stuff.

Jamethon
02-27-2013, 05:05 PM
1. Cancel the F35, it is a failed program.
2. Bar all field grade officers from serving in any capacity for defense firms
3. Stop thinking in terms of empire, cold war, and being a global power for "good." Then reevaluate our acquisition programs.
4. Stop the "spend it or lose it" budgeting process.

That should be plenty to get done in 4 years.

Field grade or Flag grade? Flag grade seems a lot more appropriate for this one.

Robert F. Dorr
02-27-2013, 05:36 PM
A SECDEF can't do any of that stuff.

He can't do most of the other stuff listed here, either. But he can weigh in and grab as much influence as he's able to grab. Gates wielded enormous power but that's partly because he began under a hands-off president. Gates almost single-handedly gave us all this crap for counterinsurgency that will be useless in an actual war.

Rainmaker
02-27-2013, 08:57 PM
Agree wit alot of that Drackore especially the part about the Generals and GS whoever the hell running around. We don't need all of that...way too top heavy we've become. We don't need Staff Cars either for anyone imo, drive your own car.

Great idea! Maybe they'll go back to the good old days after WWI when Colonels in the war reverted to permanent Captains and the draftees get to practice with broom sticks. We can just pull out of everywhere and fight a few insurrections against the pesky Mexican bandito gangs running amok in Texas , all while the temple money changers keep pumping printed money into the stock market for too big to fail banks and corporations to take record profits before they short it again.

The Peacetime Military sucks! But, enjoy the downtime men. Luckily, nature abhors a vacumm and in a couple of short years we'll get some new action with the latest boogyman or even better a Cold War 2.0 with China and we'll all be back in business!

Rainmaker
02-27-2013, 10:01 PM
I would like the members of this Forum to list things they'd like the new Secretary of Defense to do. If you could sit down with Chuck Hagel for five minutes, what would you say to him?

How bout in-sourcing medical care??? That's right Bob. Rainmaker said it. Shitcan Tricare, and let the services staff up to take care of their own again. Because, after all In our fearless leader's own words... It's unsustainable and "eating DoD alive".

Imagine that. There's no control on medical inflation. The troops are going to the doctor more after 12 years of constant deployments and it costs too much. who could've known?

The whole point was supposed to be to save money. Tricare like every other outsourcing of core military capability is a scam and corporate cash cow. Check out how many retired Medical corps Generals and Admirals (who pushed for outsourcing) wound up becoming consultants to these groups and you'll know everything you need to know about Tricare and why it's not saving money.

Jamethon
02-28-2013, 01:31 AM
How bout in-sourcing medical care??? That's right Bob. Rainmaker said it. Shitcan Tricare, and let the services staff up to take care of their own again. Because, after all In our fearless leader's own words... It's unsustainable and "eating DoD alive".

Imagine that. There's no control on medical inflation. The troops are going to the doctor more after 12 years of constant deployments and it costs too much. who could've known?

The whole point was supposed to be to save money. Tricare like every other outsourcing of core military capability is a scam and corporate cash cow. Check out how many retired Medical corps Generals and Admirals (who pushed for outsourcing) wound up becoming consultants to these groups and you'll know everything you need to know about Tricare and why it's not saving money.

So if I get injured and go to a civilian hospital because there is not a military hospital in my area, how is that going to be paid for? Bases without ER's and specialists that you need to be referred off base to? Healthcare is going to need to be outsourced somehow...

efmbman
02-28-2013, 01:49 AM
I'm thankful gates supported transfer of gi bill to dependents.
I consider it my biggest benefit.

I find it difficult to know if you are serious or not, but I agree nevertheless.

F4CrewChick
02-28-2013, 05:43 AM
I would like the members of this Forum to list things they'd like the new Secretary of Defense to do. If you could sit down with Chuck Hagel for five minutes, what would you say to him?Mindless pentagon spending designed only to enrich DoD contractors and guarantee jobs for retiring brass. I think there should be a 5 year moratorium on retiring military joining defense firms with government contracts. Pentagon spending is THE MOST WASTEFUL of all governmental spending. Chuck Hagel needs to be the tough boss, start shaking the tree, until a shitload of flag officers fall out.

Banned
02-28-2013, 06:18 AM
The article's ideas were all good... but meaningless altruisms. "Reform", "streamline", "make more efficient", "hire experts"... well no shit. I thought we should make the Pentagon less efficient and hire morons.

BURAWSKI
02-28-2013, 07:38 AM
I think this SECDEF is going to be one of the best we've ever had in that office.

Robert F. Dorr
02-28-2013, 11:11 AM
Mindless pentagon spending designed only to enrich DoD contractors and guarantee jobs for retiring brass. I think there should be a 5 year moratorium on retiring military joining defense firms with government contracts. Pentagon spending is THE MOST WASTEFUL of all governmental spending. Chuck Hagel needs to be the tough boss, start shaking the tree, until a shitload of flag officers fall out.

Yes on all of that except instead of five years make it a lifetime ban.

In the distant past this would have been self-policing: Any self-respecting officer of the Marshall, Arnold and Eisenhower era would have thought it beneath contempt to accept a job with a company that makes planes and equipment for the military.

Robert F. Dorr
02-28-2013, 11:12 AM
I think this SECDEF is going to be one of the best we've ever had in that office.

I haven't formed an opinion so I'm curious to know why you think this.

MajesticThunder
02-28-2013, 11:54 AM
Be atypically, comprehensive with DoD cost saving changes.

Integrate military assets better; neutralize internal “turf” wars for funding or glory.

Stop role duplication. Old traditions die hard, but US can’t afford status quo any more.

Abolish all five U.S. Service academies. Next BRAC list be comprised solely of all five service academies with an all or none proviso. Expand OTS/OCS and ROTC to fill the gap.

Active duty forces should all be light and lean expeditionary or rapid deployment forces only. Energize and amplify “forward operating site” and "cooperative security location" wisdom.

Shift all “heavy” (armor, artillery, bombers) units across DoD exclusively into reserve components only to spin up, as needed. Revisit prepositioning and global “lily pad” concept exploiting better coordinated reserve call ups.

Consolidate major roles into only one service stopping redundant like units. All armor and artillery operated solely by Army Reserve not also provided by USMC Reserves.

Fund one land-based “Air Force”, one carrier-based naval “aviation force”. Army and USMC should not also be in the rotary-wing and fixed-wing aircraft or any air component business.

Develop SOCOM propensity to better deploy MARSOC and other service special operations capability for more specific forte roles that do not negatively vie for prestige or funding.

Rein all DoD R & D and acquisition aspects into a single streamlined system.

Stop trying to slyly nickel and dime away military entitlements from current or former members, just get all planned changes upfront to implement fully starting FY 2017 on all those you have not yet entered into All Volunteer Service so they know what the true score is from day one. Stab from the front, not back!

Until “new” contracts take force, grandfather all those “medical, dental, pay for life served in good faith veterans” in the system already to retain what was promised directly or indirectly.

Give those enrolled in ROTC or service academies options to bail out now if so inclined before any all inclusive entitlement reduction forced acclimatization hits. All changes must fairly only occur before any service obligation begins not after.

Convert all the military positions you want into civilians and contractors except mandate that all future DoD civilians and government contractors must be equally deployable as a condition of employment to be fit and ready to go where duty calls to support mission or war fighters otherwise just keep uniformed members doing their jobs both in garrison and at the less cozy sharp end.
:usa2

imnohero
02-28-2013, 12:46 PM
Be atypically, comprehensive with DoD cost saving changes.

Integrate military assets better; neutralize internal “turf” wars for funding or glory.

Stop role duplication. Old traditions die hard, but US can’t afford status quo any more.

Abolish all five U.S. Service academies. Next BRAC list be comprised solely of all five service academies with an all or none proviso. Expand OTS/OCS and ROTC to fill the gap.

Active duty forces should all be light and lean expeditionary or rapid deployment forces only. Energize and amplify “forward operating site” and "cooperative security location" wisdom.

Shift all “heavy” (armor, artillery, bombers) units across DoD exclusively into reserve components only to spin up, as needed. Revisit prepositioning and global “lily pad” concept exploiting better coordinated reserve call ups.

Consolidate major roles into only one service stopping redundant like units. All armor and artillery operated solely by Army Reserve not also provided by USMC Reserves.

Fund one land-based “Air Force”, one carrier-based naval “aviation force”. Army and USMC should not also be in the rotary-wing and fixed-wing aircraft or any air component business.

Develop SOCOM propensity to better deploy MARSOC and other service special operations capability for more specific forte roles that do not negatively vie for prestige or funding.

Rein all DoD R & D and acquisition aspects into a single streamlined system.

Stop trying to slyly nickel and dime away military entitlements from current or former members, just get all planned changes upfront to implement fully starting FY 2017 on all those you have not yet entered into All Volunteer Service so they know what the true score is from day one. Stab from the front, not back!

Until “new” contracts take force, grandfather all those “medical, dental, pay for life served in good faith veterans” in the system already to retain what was promised directly or indirectly.

Give those enrolled in ROTC or service academies options to bail out now if so inclined before any all inclusive entitlement reduction forced acclimatization hits. All changes must fairly only occur before any service obligation begins not after.

Convert all the military positions you want into civilians and contractors except mandate that all future DoD civilians and government contractors must be equally deployable as a condition of employment to be fit and ready to go where duty calls to support mission or war fighters otherwise just keep uniformed members doing their jobs both in garrison and at the less cozy sharp end.
:usa2

Good list.

Rainmaker
02-28-2013, 03:19 PM
I haven't formed an opinion so I'm curious to know why you think this.

Well he survived the Jewish Lobby's Neocon attack dogs, so I'd say he's off to a good start.

Rainmaker
02-28-2013, 03:46 PM
So if I get injured and go to a civilian hospital because there is not a military hospital in my area, how is that going to be paid for? Bases without ER's and specialists that you need to be referred off base to? Healthcare is going to need to be outsourced somehow...

That’s the point. The majority of Military installations used to have this capability in-house. Like everything else. It was outsourced to private industry (supposedly to save money) in the 90s. Now Senators (that are married to Billionaires) and Generals (that are going to get paid Millions to work for Defense Industry as Consultants or sign Million dollar book contracts) are telling us it's unsustainable and the troops and their families or retirees are going to have to get kicked off the Tricare rolls. Outsourcing is a euphemism for Mega Corporations gorging themselves at the Taxpayer trough. Now the DoD budget is busted. and who do you think is going to pick up the tab first? Lockheed or Private Snuffy?

Rainmaker
02-28-2013, 04:12 PM
Yes on all of that except instead of five years make it a lifetime ban.

In the distant past this would have been self-policing: Any self-respecting officer of the Marshall, Arnold and Eisenhower era would have thought it beneath contempt to accept a job with a company that makes planes and equipment for the military.

I don't really have a problem so much with that as, i do this army of hundreds of thousands of staff augmentation support contractors, Most supplementally funded (to circumvent the law and congressional oversight), that are still on the books. We're supposedly busted and going to have to give 100K plus troops the boot and put nearly a Million Civil Servants on leave without pay. but, yet we still have these guys on the books. I don't think most people here understand this. Supplemental funds are supposed to be for emergencies until such time as you can reasonably estimate the cost. We're still using them 12 years later. You can't buy end strength with supplemental funds. This was done intentionally to hide the true costs in both blood and money from the public.

Pullinteeth
02-28-2013, 04:15 PM
I really liked #5, #6, and #7...

5. Change the way the Pentagon spends money. This is a tall order but many defense programs have “use or lose” incentives; if you don’t spend all your money, you may get less money to spend next year. This system creates incentives for waste. Instead, Hagel and his team should create incentives for thrift and innovation and implement the same best practices that work in the private sector.

6. Reform defense contracting practices to prioritize “effectiveness” over “fairness.”

7. Implement “smart” spending. The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) uses a smart system for paying its officers when they travel -- they receive a flat fee. Everyone gets the same amount – and they can use it to stay in a nice hotel, or pick a cheaper hotel and pocket the difference – it eliminates fraud and the “nickel and diming” of employees under the current system. It's no secret that excessive bureaucracy leads to unnecessary waste.

F4CrewChick
02-28-2013, 07:01 PM
I really liked #5, #6, and #7...

5. Change the way the Pentagon spends money. This is a tall order but many defense programs have “use or lose” incentives; if you don’t spend all your money, you may get less money to spend next year. This system creates incentives for waste. Instead, Hagel and his team should create incentives for thrift and innovation and implement the same best practices that work in the private sector.

6. Reform defense contracting practices to prioritize “effectiveness” over “fairness.”

7. Implement “smart” spending. The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) uses a smart system for paying its officers when they travel -- they receive a flat fee. Everyone gets the same amount – and they can use it to stay in a nice hotel, or pick a cheaper hotel and pocket the difference – it eliminates fraud and the “nickel and diming” of employees under the current system. It's no secret that excessive bureaucracy leads to unnecessary waste.
Spot on. +1

efmbman
02-28-2013, 10:15 PM
I didn't curse, therefore i was serious.

Good to know.


Name me the best military person in the last 20 years.

I'm sure many will disagree, but I can't help but think of the man being laid to rest at West Point: Schwartzkopf.

sandsjames
02-28-2013, 10:41 PM
I'm sure many will disagree, but I can't help but think of the man being laid to rest at West Point: Schwartzkopf.

I would agree, except he doesn't have nearly enough vowels in his last name.

efmbman
02-28-2013, 11:04 PM
Seriously, maybe one good/great leader...not one amazing one...in 20+ years, why?

I would guess that it is because being a very senior military leader (4-stars) has become political instead of professional. Gone are the days when Eisenhower, Devers, Patton, Bradley, LeMay and the rest would openly challenge their political masters based on the well-being of the troops. Now they are salaried yes-men that tow the line to get the rewards after retirement. I am sure that many of these generals land those great 6-figure board positions as a result of some political influence and a well-placed phone call or two.

sandsjames
02-28-2013, 11:44 PM
Seriously, maybe one good/great leader...not one amazing one...in 20+ years, why?I'd say definitely Colin Powell, but he's right on the border of the 20 years. Both he and Stormin' Norman. I just think it's difficult to pick out good/great leaders in a military that fights wars without a real "front". If you think about all the past great ones, they all "stormed a hill" or made a stand or something recognizable.

I know what the problem is. It's the damn long range bombers that have allowed our leaders to stay on the back lines.

efmbman
02-28-2013, 11:52 PM
I'd say definitely Colin Powell, but...

I was going to mention Powell. I think he was a great leader and his books are genuinely great. The only blemish is the MDW speech, of course, as SECSTATE. He did his job, supporting the position of his administration... but he should have checked the details like to professed to do all those years. Granted, this happened post-Generalship. I'm still not sure where I weigh in on that chapter of his life.

Robert F. Dorr
03-01-2013, 01:04 AM
I was going to mention Powell. I think he was a great leader and his books are genuinely great. The only blemish is the MDW speech, of course, as SECSTATE. He did his job, supporting the position of his administration... but he should have checked the details like to professed to do all those years. Granted, this happened post-Generalship. I'm still not sure where I weigh in on that chapter of his life.

There exists no better example of someone who will change his stripes and adopt whatever position happens to be in vogue if it would help his career. His United Nations speech about mobile biological warfare labs is not something that can be forgotten or forgiven: because many people shared the admiration for him that efmbman still feels today (long after he has been thoroughly discredited), that speech contributed substantially to a war that has killed tens of thousands and destroyed the reputation of the United States.

efmbman
03-01-2013, 01:25 AM
There exists no better example of someone who will change his stripes and adopt whatever position happens to be in vogue if it would help his career. His United Nations speech about mobile biological warfare labs is not something that can be forgotten or forgiven: because many people shared the admiration for him that efmbman still feels today (long after he has been thoroughly discredited), that speech contributed substantially to a war that has killed tens of thousands and destroyed the reputation of the United States.

I wouldn't go that far... but that could be because I spent the majority of my time in uniform admiring Powell as you say. As far as Powell's time in uniform I still and always will admire him for his service and leadership. The intelligence was flawed. He did not confirm or check out the details and he admits this. More importantly (to me) he takes ownership of this mistake.

The devil is in the details. History is full of examples of how seemingly insignificant events contribute to horrific conclusions. This is certainly one of them. Hindsight is 20/20.

BURAWSKI
03-01-2013, 01:55 AM
I haven't formed an opinion so I'm curious to know why you think this.

He's the real deal of course. He has a true appreciation for what it means to send Americans into harm’s way and to serve in the military. His perspective is unlike any other SECDEF we've had. Consider that he had an opportunity to take an easy assignment in Germany rather than in Vietnam during the height of the fighting. He not only chose to go to Vietnam, but he had to fight with his chain of command to do so. He was wounded in combat and proven himself on the battlefield. His combat awards aren't for some BS either. He earned them. Because of this and other factors I know he will not take a lackadaisical attitude when it comes to sending in troops. We've had that attitude in Donald Rumsfeld, as well as others. Although Rumsfeld served in the military, I don't think he considered other options before deciding to commit troops. Other secretaries seemed to look at committing troops as just another option instead of as a last resort. Chuck Hagel won't take that attitude and that's a big difference and a deal-breaker for me.

Robert F. Dorr
03-10-2013, 12:21 PM
I wouldn't go that far... but that could be because I spent the majority of my time in uniform admiring Powell as you say. As far as Powell's time in uniform I still and always will admire him for his service and leadership. The intelligence was flawed. He did not confirm or check out the details and he admits this. More importantly (to me) he takes ownership of this mistake.

The devil is in the details. History is full of examples of how seemingly insignificant events contribute to horrific conclusions. This is certainly one of them. Hindsight is 20/20.

There is no way to forgive Powell's performance in his United Nations speech, whether it was a lie (and there is lots of good reason to believe it was) or a mistake. That performance was the tipping point and tens of thousands of people have died as a result. This performance was typical of a career of a man who will say anything or do anything to get ahead and who doesn't possess an iota of honesty. There is not a single thing to admire about this man. He is the prototype for all of the self-serving, suck-up sycophants who followed and who got us into the mess we're in today.

Robert F. Dorr
03-10-2013, 12:31 PM
Hindsight is 20/20.

No hindsight involved. Everyone with any knowledge of the subject knew that we were being lied to. We knew it at the time. We were lied to, we started the wrong war by invading the wrong country and we are still paying for it. George W. Bush was on the bridge but Colin Powell was down in the engine room, turning the knobs, pulling the levers and lying to us to advance his own career, displaying the fundamental dishonesty that has characterized every minute of his life.

BOSS302
03-10-2013, 12:36 PM
There is no way to forgive Powell's performance in his United Nations speech, whether it was a lie (and there is lots of good reason to believe it was) or a mistake. That performance was the tipping point and tens of thousands of people have died as a result. This performance was typical of a career of a man who will say anything or do anything to get ahead and who doesn't possess an iota of honesty. There is not a single thing to admire about this man. He is the prototype for all of the self-serving, suck-up sycophants who followed and who got us into the mess we're in today.

Colin Powell is a distinguished military veteran who saw multiple tours in Vietnam - to include being wounded and surviving a helicopter crash - who served as Ronald Reagan's National Security Advisor, who performed admirably as the Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, who has received several US military decorations (Purple Heart, Bronze Star, Soldier's Medal, etc) and also received several high-order decorations from foreign nations.

You rode a desk, you write literary dribble about aircraft and history, and you lurk on the MilitaryTimes.com forum like some sort of ancient Troll.

Out of the two of you, one is deserving of admiration and respect for, at the very least, his 35 years of honorable military service to the United States. Let me let you in on a little secret: it's not you.

You know a lot about airplanes and you have made some very good points in discussions past, but you make yourself out to be a very tiny man in this thread.

sandsjames
03-10-2013, 12:41 PM
No hindsight involved. Everyone with any knowledge of the subject knew that we were being lied to. We knew it at the time. We were lied to, we started the wrong war by invading the wrong country and we are still paying for it. George W. Bush was on the bridge but Colin Powell was down in the engine room, turning the knobs, pulling the levers and lying to us to advance his own career, displaying the fundamental dishonesty that has characterized every minute of his life.


Yeah, nobody actually believed that Iraq had WMDs (which, of course, they did before we gave them enough time to smuggle them out of the country).

imnohero
03-10-2013, 12:58 PM
No hindsight involved. Everyone with any knowledge of the subject knew that we were being lied to. We knew it at the time. We were lied to, we started the wrong war by invading the wrong country and we are still paying for it. George W. Bush was on the bridge but Colin Powell was down in the engine room, turning the knobs, pulling the levers and lying to us to advance his own career, displaying the fundamental dishonesty that has characterized every minute of his life.

So then you can point out how you used your moderate fame and connections in various media to challenge that "lie." To call out, in a public way, against the war generally and against Powell and Powell's speech specifically. You raised hell, you burned bridges in the name of truth and justice.

No?

FLAPS
03-10-2013, 01:30 PM
George W. Bush was on the bridge but Colin Powell was down in the engine room, turning the knobs, pulling the levers and lying to us to advance his own career, displaying the fundamental dishonesty that has characterized every minute of his life.

A Sec Of State trying to advance his own career? Advance it to where exactly? The man has already "been there, done that," and proved himself a patriot more times over his lifetime than you'd have space to brag about in any of your books.

Besides the UN speech, one that relied solely on bad intel he was given, what "fundamental dishonesty" did he characterize "every minute of his life?"

Pullinteeth
03-11-2013, 02:42 PM
There is no way to forgive Powell's performance in his United Nations speech, whether it was a lie (and there is lots of good reason to believe it was) or a mistake. That performance was the tipping point and tens of thousands of people have died as a result. This performance was typical of a career of a man who will say anything or do anything to get ahead and who doesn't possess an iota of honesty. There is not a single thing to admire about this man. He is the prototype for all of the self-serving, suck-up sycophants who followed and who got us into the mess we're in today.

I am sure you have the same opinion of these Senators as well; Tim Johnson, Blanche Lincoln, Dianne Feinstein, Jeff Sessions, Christopher Dodd, Joseph Lieberman, Bill Nelson, Max Cleland, Zell Miller, Evan Bayh, Tom Harkin, Mary Landrieu, John Breaux, John Kerry, Joseph Biden, Thomas Carper, Jean Carnahan, Max Baucus, Ben Nelson, Harry Reid, Hillary Clinton, Charles Schumer, John Edwards, Byron Dorgan, Ernest "Fritz" Hollings, Maria Cantwell, Jay Rockefeller, and Herb Kohl?

MajesticThunder
03-11-2013, 02:53 PM
No hindsight involved. Everyone with any knowledge of the subject knew that we were being lied to. We knew it at the time. We were lied to, we started the wrong war by invading the wrong country and we are still paying for it. George W. Bush was on the bridge but Colin Powell was down in the engine room, turning the knobs, pulling the levers and lying to us to advance his own career, displaying the fundamental dishonesty that has characterized every minute of his life.

Opinions Are Like ... Everyone Has One

I’m confident our increasingly polarized country would actually be better with more politicians and senior leaders comparable to Colin Powell vs. any status quo contenders.

In over 33 years of combined US military, GS, and contractor government service; every fellow US citizen (approx. 30) and a few foreign nationals I know from across a very diverse spectrum of commissioned, enlisted, or civilian compatriots in varied branches of government who personally served with or experienced firsthand interaction with Colin Powell had nothing but positive, respectful, and complimentary praise for his professionalism and persona.

There was an apt time that if Colin Powell had chosen to run for President he would have undoubtedly secured most of the military vote, including mine.

In retrospect, I assertively still consider Powell’s moderate, centrist, and obliging overall composed approach to US military operations or global diplomacy topics of his day as being refreshing, inclusive, and worthy of slightly more appreciation. :usa2

Pullinteeth
03-11-2013, 06:59 PM
No hindsight involved. Everyone with any knowledge of the subject knew that we were being lied to. We knew it at the time. We were lied to, we started the wrong war by invading the wrong country and we are still paying for it. George W. Bush was on the bridge but Colin Powell was down in the engine room, turning the knobs, pulling the levers and lying to us to advance his own career, displaying the fundamental dishonesty that has characterized every minute of his life.

Sweet, so you agree that William Clinton, John Kerry, Tom Daschle, Carl Levin, Nancy Pelosi, Bob Graham, Al Gore, Ted Kennedy, Jay Rockerfeller, Henry Waxman, Robert Byrd, Hillary Clinton etc... were all liars building the foundation for G.W. Bush and Colin Powell to feed this tripe to the U.N.? After all, the democrats were ALSO talking about Iraq's WMDs since '98....

http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp

BURAWSKI
03-11-2013, 08:52 PM
Just a comment about the derogatory opinions of GEN Powell. I don't think it is fair to call him a lier. I remember him giving that famous speech to the UN in 2003 and the CIA Director was sitting directly behind him. Any information that GEN Powell put out about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction was vetted through the CIA. Also, all of the alphabet soup agencies within the Intelligence Community were saying that Iraq had those weapons. It isn't fair to single out GEN Powell. Had he had his druthers I know he would have never allowed us to invade Iraq. I think he is a standup individual and would gladly serve under him anytime.