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ROAD
02-10-2013, 05:19 PM
1. Inspections: make them all in house, no more flying hundreds of inspectors around the country and world in a non-stop waste of money that only proves we are good at making shit look right at the very last second.

2. Bands, All of them...worthless, pointless, pathetic tradition

3. Air Shows: nobody likes them but civilians, they don't help with recruiting, they only waste our days off and waste money on fuel/maint for the planes

4. Demonstration teams: Thunderbirds, shooting teams, ect..If you are part of anything that's only mission is to make public appearances and show off your skills...you should be using those skills in the operational AF, not being flaunted around like a show poiny. This also applies to all sports teams that are more than "after work" fun.

5. Civilian janitors: that's what airman who are in trouble are suppose to be doing, cleaning stuff, taking out garbage, why are we paying these people to do it

6. PT Program: How much time and money is wasted because of this one program, we use to pay civilians, now we take people out of their job so that they can watch other squadrons. Integrity is our first core value, if you dont trust your people to do the PT test on themselves, kick us all out and start over. It also leads to time and money wasted in multiple meetings, board hearings, court martial...it's treated more seriously than being caught dead hooker in your trunk while covered in cocaine : Fix, go back to squadron doing it...take it off EPR, the end.

7. Personal vehicle for anyone needs to go, self explanatory

8. Drug testing: it cost DOD over a billion dollars a year. Make it simple, you show symptoms or prob cause, they pull you in and test you , other wise, you are performing well at work, who cares.

9. CBT's, PME : all a waste of time, how many times in your life have you been in a situation where you said "thank god I learned this in PME or i'd be lost?"...never, thats how often...same goes for CBTs, all a pointless and wasteful spending of money and time.

10. Paperwork that gets pencil whipped: 1800s, ect..you know the ones i'm talking about, the ones nobody does until inspection time...if they are that pointless that we only need to do them when we know someone will be looking, then they are not needed,will save time and money from the whole AF not printing these things out.

I'm sure you can all think of more...

Quixotic
02-10-2013, 05:39 PM
Gyms!
DFACs!
Family care programs!
Health care!
Dorms!
Security Forces!
TMO!
G.I. Bill
TA
BX
Commissaries
Base housing
MWR
30 days of leave a year
TSP
Pensions
Space A
Schools
Museums

Cut it all, but don't you dare touch my F-35, and I don't care if you have to start up the draft to fill the ranks later.

efmbman
02-10-2013, 05:46 PM
One quarter (maybe more) of the officers in the rank of O4-O10. There are simply not enough people in service to justify all that brass. The only service that even comes close to having a pyramid-like rank structure is the USMC. To do so, would require the immediate repeal of Executive Order 13223. This was signed on 14 SEP 2001 by Bush, but has been renewed every year since (yes, that includes 4 times by President Obama).

VFFTSGT
02-10-2013, 05:53 PM
Cut off the lights...inside and outside.

Drove by my base last night and thought wow...you cannot tell it's dark outside.

Not one single thing was going on either...the base was essentially a ghost town.

Quixotic
02-10-2013, 06:02 PM
Cut off the lights...inside and outside.

Drove by my base last night and thought wow...you cannot tell it's dark outside.



Wait a minute! That sounds like a base that doesn't need reflective belts any more! You could work that to your advantage.

VFFTSGT
02-10-2013, 06:05 PM
Wait a minute! That sounds like a base that doesn't need reflective belts any more! You could work that to your advantage.

No, you will still get slaughtered for not wearing a reflective belt.

Rainmaker
02-10-2013, 06:10 PM
Gyms!
DFACs!
Family care programs!
Health care!
Dorms!
Security Forces!
TMO!
G.I. Bill
TA
BX
Commissaries
Base housing
MWR
30 days of leave a year
TSP
Pensions
Space A
Schools
Museums

Cut it all, but don't you dare touch my F-35, and I don't care if you have to start up the draft to fill the ranks later.

My man Quixotic off to a good start. But, what DoD really need is more think tank studies from the military experts in academia to suggest more stuff we can outsource to private industry. You gots to spend money to make money

Absinthe Anecdote
02-10-2013, 06:53 PM
My man Quixotic off to a good start. But, what DoD really need is more think tank studies from the military experts in academia to suggest more stuff we can outsource to private industry. You gots to spend money to make money

You might be on to something there.

I was thinking we could put defense spending cuts under the control of a panel made from reporters at National Public Radio while we could put entitlement cuts under the control of a panel of Fox News reporters.

Personally, I’ve been scouting remote locations to live out the hermit phase of my life. It’s either that or I’m just going to totally immerse myself in TMZ, reality TV shows and just not care anymore.

Robert F. Dorr
02-10-2013, 07:07 PM
Air National Guard bases like the one in Mansfield, Ohio that has one wing, two groups and four squadrons totaling 1,200 people to operate four ... count 'em ... FOUR ... C-27J Spartan airlifters.

bigKranium
02-10-2013, 07:37 PM
Air National Guard bases like the one in Mansfield, Ohio that has one wing, two groups and four squadrons totaling 1,200 people to operate four ... count 'em ... FOUR ... C-27J Spartan airlifters.

Congressmen Jim Jordan from Ohio's fightin' fourth district totally disagrees with Mr. Dorrs' comments and would like them stricken from the record. And anything to do with Abrams tank upgrades (also in his district). :wacko

But... Straight from his bio, "Jordan has been an advocate of the taxpayer, looking for waste, fraud and abuse in the federal government." He should probably start in his backyard.

On another note, I think Mr. Dorr had a good idea about GO's a few weeks back.

MajesticThunder
02-10-2013, 08:36 PM
Abolish all five U.S. Service academies:

- United States Military Academy (USMA)

- United States Naval Academy (USNA)

- United States Coast Guard Academy (USCGA)

- United States Merchant Marine Academy (USMMA)

- United States Air Force Academy (USAFA)

And any linked preparatory schools to get DOD (and taxpayers) completely out of superfluous undergraduate extravagance which only sources about 20% of commissioned officers.

Amplify and better exploit more frugal OCS/OTS sourcing and existing ROTC framework to fill any gap in appointments from unconditional closure of all service academies.

Each service equally shares pain of imposed drastic change in over politicized traditions and ostentatious legacies vs. loss of explicit military operational capability.

Welcome to the 21st century, robust change means promising leaders will just pragmatically hail from more cost effective paths already available.

Only one coherent example of genuine cost saving change, other examples abound. :noidea

needmorecowbell
02-10-2013, 09:03 PM
Green Flag(s) and Red Flag

chevyman
02-10-2013, 09:18 PM
Top in Blue, Thunderbirds, bands and air shows are not goiny away. They make the brass feel good and the public loves them. We can cut the end of year sending sprees. Buying stupid things just because is a good way to save money.

akruse
02-10-2013, 09:40 PM
Green Flag(s) and Red Flag

Most outstandingly dumb idea heard to date. Congrats.

OtisRNeedleman
02-10-2013, 09:44 PM
Abolish all five U.S. Service academies:

- United States Military Academy (USMA)

- United States Naval Academy (USNA)

- United States Coast Guard Academy (USCGA)

- United States Merchant Marine Academy (USMMA)

- United States Air Force Academy (USAFA)

And any linked preparatory schools to get DOD (and taxpayers) completely out of superfluous undergraduate extravagance which only sources about 20% of commissioned officers.

Amplify and better exploit more frugal OCS/OTS sourcing and existing ROTC framework to fill any gap in appointments from unconditional closure of all service academies.

Each service equally shares pain of imposed drastic change in over politicized traditions and ostentatious legacies vs. loss of explicit military operational capability.

Welcome to the 21st century, robust change means promising leaders will just pragmatically hail from more cost effective paths already available.

Only one coherent example of genuine cost saving change, other examples abound. :noidea

VERY well put.

JD2780
02-10-2013, 11:41 PM
I like what somebody else said. Having the airmen take out the trash, vacuum, wash windows. In 2 out of the 3 units I worked in our Airmen did the vacuuming, and all the house keeping stuff. We still took out the trash.

Heck we mowed the grass. I know thats a crazy concept to most Airmen.

JD2780
02-10-2013, 11:42 PM
I like what somebody else said. Having the airmen take out the trash, vacuum, wash windows. In 2 out of the 3 units I worked in our Airmen did the vacuuming, and all the house keeping stuff. We still took out the trash.

Heck we mowed the grass. I know thats a crazy concept to most Airmen.

Robert F. Dorr
02-11-2013, 12:09 AM
The Merchant Marine Academy is not a military service academy.

The Coast Guard is, and is also very useful.

The other three service academies (Air Force, Army, Navy) are unnecessary and won't be missed. That's especially true of the Air Force Academy.

It's possible to produce a perfectly good second lieutenant or ensign for about one-tenth the cost.

Robert F. Dorr
02-11-2013, 12:12 AM
Abolish all five U.S. Service academies:

- United States Military Academy (USMA)

- United States Naval Academy (USNA)

- United States Coast Guard Academy (USCGA)

- United States Merchant Marine Academy (USMMA)

- United States Air Force Academy (USAFA)

And any linked preparatory schools to get DOD (and taxpayers) completely out of superfluous undergraduate extravagance which only sources about 20% of commissioned officers.

Amplify and better exploit more frugal OCS/OTS sourcing and existing ROTC framework to fill any gap in appointments from unconditional closure of all service academies.

Each service equally shares pain of imposed drastic change in over politicized traditions and ostentatious legacies vs. loss of explicit military operational capability.

Welcome to the 21st century, robust change means promising leaders will just pragmatically hail from more cost effective paths already available.

Only one coherent example of genuine cost saving change, other examples abound. :noidea

I'm dying to find someone who has solid numbers on the cost of producing an officer via the various methods we use. I would get rid of Colorado Springs in a heartbeat.

chevyman
02-11-2013, 12:18 AM
I'm dying to find someone who has solid numbers on the cost of producing an officer via the various methods we use. I would get rid of Colorado Springs in a heartbeat.

I create an officer every time I take a dump.

RobotChicken
02-11-2013, 12:24 AM
I'm dying to find someone who has solid numbers on the cost of producing an officer via the various methods we use. I would get rid of Colorado Springs in a heartbeat.
:spy .05 cents on the $ and without the 'PC BS'..lock up 4,000 horny guys and gals for 4 years after H.S.;you get what you sow.......:croc:deadhorse

13Foxtrot
02-11-2013, 12:44 AM
1. End all overseas accompanied tours. This would allow the closure/de-scope of huge amounts of base operating facilities/costs such as child care centers, youth programs, DoDDs schools, smaller commissary/bx, base housing, hospitals and all the infrastructure required to provide "Little America's" overseas. Make overseas tours 6/12 month remotes as they do in Korea...

Robert F. Dorr
02-11-2013, 12:45 AM
For not just the military but society in general:

-- eliminate all photo ID and all federal laws relating to state-issued driver's licenses

-- eliminate all coins except quarters

-- eliminate everything in the Pentagon building

Robert F. Dorr
02-11-2013, 12:46 AM
1. End all overseas accompanied tours. This would allow the closure/de-scope of huge amounts of base operating facilities/costs such as child care centers, youth programs, DoDDs schools, smaller commissary/bx, base housing, hospitals and all the infrastructure required to provide "Little America's" overseas. Make overseas tours 6/12 month remotes as they do in Korea...

This is an idea I really, really like.

SomeRandomGuy
02-11-2013, 12:48 AM
I'm dying to find someone who has solid numbers on the cost of producing an officer via the various methods we use. I would get rid of Colorado Springs in a heartbeat.

I do not have exact numbers but I do know one thing. After your 2 year at the AF Academy a cadet has to sign an agreement that if they fail out after that they will either enlist in the AF as an A1C or pay back over $300,000. That should give you a rough idea what it costs.

Robert F. Dorr
02-11-2013, 01:11 AM
I do not have exact numbers but I do know one thing. After your 2 year at the AF Academy a cadet has to sign an agreement that if they fail out after that they will either enlist in the AF as an A1C or pay back over $300,000. That should give you a rough idea what it costs.

I'll ask the Academy tomorrow but if you can be more specific about the amount, please do. If you drop out before the end of the second year, then what? I'll ask that, too. Isn't A1C the same as E-3? Shouldn't they make it E-2?

SomeRandomGuy
02-11-2013, 01:16 AM
I'll ask the Academy tomorrow but if you can be more specific about the amount, please do. If you drop out before the end of the second year, then what? I'll ask that, too. Isn't A1C the same as E-3? Shouldn't they make it E-2?


According to this an AF Academy degree is valued at $416,000. It casually mentions that if you are disenrolled or discharged you would incur an active duty commitment. The reason they give them the rank of E3 is because that is the same would someone of the street would get if they have laready completed at least 60 college credits.

http://www.academyadmissions.com/commitment/

PT GOD
02-11-2013, 03:09 AM
how bouts you stop all this BS about 4 failures on PT test before being CONSIDERED for discharge, one failure..hell, i'll even say...1 failure auto discharge, dont score over a 90 EVERY YEAR and you can't be reenlisting...that'll save some coin biatches

imported_Renazance
02-11-2013, 05:43 AM
Staff cars - use your own damn car, you can afford it
General's Aides - that's what wives are for
Awards banquets, staff dinners, etc
Stop buying new computers every 2 years!
Tops in Blues
Thunderbirds
Rodeos
Inspection Teams - have no value added

CJSmith
02-11-2013, 05:47 AM
The military.

/end thread

Monkey
02-11-2013, 08:03 AM
Ask Senator Tom A. Coburn.
http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?a=Files.Serve&File_id=00783b5a-f0fe-4f80-90d6-019695e52d2d

MajesticThunder
02-11-2013, 09:15 AM
The Merchant Marine Academy is not a military service academy.

The Coast Guard is, and is also very useful.

The other three service academies (Air Force, Army, Navy) are unnecessary and won't be missed. That's especially true of the Air Force Academy.

It's possible to produce a perfectly good second lieutenant or ensign for about one-tenth the cost.

Technically USMMA is a service academy requiring a DOD Medical Examination Review Board (DODMERB) entrance physical to get in and confers military commissions with a service (reserve) obligation after graduation.

Active duty U.S. Navy instructors are embedded into the cadre, however USMMA’s annual O & M budget is gleaned from DOT instead of DOD so ultimately from same cash strapped US taxpayers either way.

Prove the process works with reduced pork barrel pretext. I propose next BRAC list be comprised solely of the five service academies with an all or none proviso.

Let’s test if any elected official is actually serious about saving DOD money with minimal negative impact to frontline defense. Some traditions are now simply too costly.

Closing all of these opulent tax funded military “campuses” and realigning their combined service entry accessions to existing more thrifty internal or external sources of leadership edification would be a genuine “base” closure cost savings revelation.

Negligible portion of each academy’s staff could be readily transferred across to bolster proportionally increased OCS/OTS and ROTC programs on existing military installations and established civilian institutions.

Majority of BRAC closed service academy staff billets could easily be part of mandated DOD end strength personnel number cuts (savings) without direct impact to any operational, mission essential organizations.

Once confirmed, I sincerely hope SecDef nominee Hagel during an upcoming tenure can make closing of all service academies his worthy legacy to the American taxpayers.:usa2

Blue Warrior
02-11-2013, 10:08 AM
Let’s test if any elected official is actually serious about saving DOD money with minimal negative impact to frontline defense. Some traditions are now simply too costly.

I think the Senators and Representatives from Colorado would have something to say about the "minimal impact" of closing the USAFA. I wonder what the economic impact of closing the USMA and USNA are.

---------------------------

http://www.usafa.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123305768


Academy releases 2011 Economic Impact Statement, nearly $1 billion in local impact


The Air Force Academy's Financial Management Directorate recently released its Economic Impact Analysis for Fiscal Year 2011, outlining nearly $1 billion in total economic impact on Colorado Springs and its surrounding communities.

Robert F. Dorr
02-11-2013, 10:20 AM
I think the Senators and Representatives from Colorado would have something to say about the "minimal impact" of closing the USAFA. I wonder what the economic impact of closing the USMA and USNA are.

---------------------------

http://www.usafa.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123305768


Academy releases 2011 Economic Impact Statement, nearly $1 billion in local impact


The Air Force Academy's Financial Management Directorate recently released its Economic Impact Analysis for Fiscal Year 2011, outlining nearly $1 billion in total economic impact on Colorado Springs and its surrounding communities.

Yes, of course. It's the same problem with bases. We have far too many bases.

MajesticThunder
02-11-2013, 11:57 AM
I think the Senators and Representatives from Colorado would have something to say about the "minimal impact" of closing the USAFA. I wonder what the economic impact of closing the USMA and USNA are.

---------------------------

http://www.usafa.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123305768


Academy releases 2011 Economic Impact Statement, nearly $1 billion in local impact


The Air Force Academy's Financial Management Directorate recently released its Economic Impact Analysis for Fiscal Year 2011, outlining nearly $1 billion in total economic impact on Colorado Springs and its surrounding communities.


As a law abiding, US citizen taxpayer I would prefer to have a moratorium on all overseas / foreign aid sourced from my government mandated US tax dollars until we fix our domestic fiscal woe.

Authentic savings must start coming from somewhere.

If not some funds appropriated by the Congress to provide comprehensive, redundant federal “universities” located in Colorado, New York, Maryland, and Connecticut, then where?

Delegations, communities, and individuals are always encouraged to provide data, opinions, and feedback to BRAC commissions. Here lies a weakness in the overall BRAC process.

Closing all service academies serves the greater good to find bona fide DOD “fat” and prudently trim without compromising core national security functions.

Perhaps some radical new form of Roman styled BRAC decimation ritual where like military installations (size, mission, geographical area, active/reserve/guard) are grouped in bunches of ten and assigned nondescript numbers.

Have a live publicly broadcast BRAC “lottery draw” from each bunch of ten to identify which installations must close thus cutting out protracted art of NIMBY politics as usual.

One in ten installations will be randomly culled for BRAC action. Regardless of logic or consequence savings “discipline” will be imposed. :lock1

For good fiscal discipline of our nation perhaps any so called servants of the people who protest against this new uncompromising, but effective BRAC method can submit themselves to a modern day pollice verso to pay attention to the overlooked wishes of us fleeced taxpayers. :hail

I personally would give most legislators the thumbs down. :thumb

imported_chipotleboy
02-11-2013, 12:04 PM
I do not have exact numbers but I do know one thing. After your 2 year at the AF Academy a cadet has to sign an agreement that if they fail out after that they will either enlist in the AF as an A1C or pay back over $300,000. That should give you a rough idea what it costs.

That's really a sweetheart deal when you consider an ROTC scholarship cadet is locked into their contract after only 1 year of college. And even going to MIT or Stanford, they are less expensive than a USAFA cadet.

JD2780
02-11-2013, 12:20 PM
That's really a sweetheart deal when you consider an ROTC scholarship cadet is locked into their contract after only 1 year of college. And even going to MIT or Stanford, they are less expensive than a USAFA cadet.

And you get twice the education and probably a better leader.

imported_KnuckleDragger
02-11-2013, 01:44 PM
When we leave Afghanistan, we go to the budget we were using in 2000. Problem solved.

JD2780
02-11-2013, 02:39 PM
When we leave Afghanistan, we go to the budget we were using in 2000. Problem solved.

There will be lots of shocked folks running around. As far as TACPs go, no more cool gear, cool schools and awesome TDYs. Only long TDY will be to kawait, NTC, JRTC. Schools will be airborne and air assault, and only time you'll control is on a range once every 3 months for currency. Lots of training will happen in the back woods.

SomeRandomGuy
02-11-2013, 02:49 PM
When we leave Afghanistan, we go to the budget we were using in 2000. Problem solved.

Sure that sounds simple. What exactly are those numbers again? Well let's see here the DoD budget was about $475 Billion in 2003. So we need to get back to somewhere close to that number. Should be simple right? How much was last year's budget? A little over $900 Billion! Ok so you are saying that we can simply leave Afghanistan and cut our budget in half. What a simple solution why hasn't anyone else thought of this yet?

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_2003_2017USb_13s1li1181440_708cs_30 t

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_2003_2017USb_13s1li1181440_708cs_30 t

imported_chipotleboy
02-11-2013, 09:34 PM
And you get twice the education and probably a better leader.

True. I was approached several times in my career about teaching at the zoo. After finding out from current and former faculty members that their education process is an assembly line where faculty are told exactly how to teach their subjects with little room for innovation, I turned it down.

GoatDriver57
02-11-2013, 10:54 PM
"When we leave Afghanistan, we go to the budget we were using in 2000. Problem solved."

Not so fast Pilgrim! When we turn the lights out in AssCanAcan, we'll fund the tab for all the civilian workers and their families over, to auto USA citizenship that worked for us in-country, coming to a state near you.

imported_KnuckleDragger
02-12-2013, 12:28 AM
When we leave Afghanistan, we go to the budget we were using in 2000. Problem solved.

Although I did say this tongue-in-cheek, because it is an over-simplification, I still believe it.

Do I know the numbers. No. I don't care.

Before 9/11 I would say most Services had it pretty good. We weren't rubbing pennies together. If you take Iraq/Afghanistan out of the equation, what new stuff do we need that we didn't have pre 9/11?

I guess my point is, how did we afford stuff pre 9/11, on such a "meager" budget?

imported_Shove_your_stupid_meeting
02-12-2013, 12:40 AM
The DoD spends over $200 billion annually on services. Perhaps we got it better overall than we care to realize, and maybe it's time to suck it up? In other words, take out our own trash, vacuum and dust our own areas, etc. In some areas, we seem to be screwed (IT support), but we could live with hiring fewer people to wipe our butts (at least in some locations).

SomeRandomGuy
02-12-2013, 12:58 AM
Although I did say this tongue-in-cheek, because it is an over-simplification, I still believe it.

Do I know the numbers. No. I don't care.

Before 9/11 I would say most Services had it pretty good. We weren't rubbing pennies together. If you take Iraq/Afghanistan out of the equation, what new stuff do we need that we didn't have pre 9/11?

I guess my point is, how did we afford stuff pre 9/11, on such a "meager" budget?

I think your idea is a start. The point I made earlier was more to illustrate just how much the budget has grown since the wars kicked off. The DoD is complaining about sequestration and what amounts to a roughly 10% cut. If anyone in congress proposed a 50% cut I think Panetta and others might have a heart attack. I was trying to do a little research on your idea but it is difficult to compare numbers. The DoD accounting system is terrible and most reports are writeen with some sort of bias. I did find one report that compares expenses for the war. If the numbers are correct the amount allocated directly to Iraq and Afghanistan was roughly 159 Billion. As I mentioned in my earler post the DoD budget has grown from $450 Billion to over $900 Billion in only 10 years. If we can assume that only 159 Billion is directly attributed to the war we know that other programs have grown. I think your idea would be a good starting point. Maybe congress could mandate that the DoD send a comparison budget from 2001 and 2013 and justify each new program or expense. I would love to know why these new programs are necessary now. when they were not prior to 9/11. Obviously, some security programs would be required my guess is most new expenses are more of a result of requirements creep.

http://costsofwar.org/sites/default/files/articles/39/attachments/Wheeler%20Pentagon%20Spending.pdf

VFFTSGT
02-12-2013, 01:08 AM
Although I did say this tongue-in-cheek, because it is an over-simplification, I still believe it.

Do I know the numbers. No. I don't care.

Before 9/11 I would say most Services had it pretty good. We weren't rubbing pennies together. If you take Iraq/Afghanistan out of the equation, what new stuff do we need that we didn't have pre 9/11?

I guess my point is, how did we afford stuff pre 9/11, on such a "meager" budget?

We didn't have all those contractor employees before 9/11....

imported_Shove_your_stupid_meeting
02-12-2013, 01:13 AM
We didn't have all those contractor employees before 9/11....


Supposedly it's cheaper to have them, although when it comes to cleaning the office/shop, moving furniture, and other basic manual labor we use to have to do back in the day, I'm not sure how we're saving a buck.

VFFTSGT
02-12-2013, 01:30 AM
Supposedly it's cheaper to have them, although when it comes to cleaning the office/shop, moving furniture, and other basic manual labor we use to have to do back in the day, I'm not sure how we're saving a buck.

The AF (our last CSAF) came out and said it wasn't...

This is why many contracts have been let go and we started "in-sourcing," at least at my base we did.

There was nothing about paying contractors over 6 digits to do my job in a deployed environment and pay my type people to sit at home and twiddle thumbs.

We also did not have CAC cards pre-9/11, gate barriers, DBID scanners, DTS, Blackberries, ABU's ....

Quixotic
02-14-2013, 09:59 PM
"The United States still has more than $1 billion allocated for Haiti [2010 earthquake relief] sitting in the Treasury..."

- NY Times, 23 Dec 2012.

And here we sit, facing sequestration...

BRUWIN
02-14-2013, 11:44 PM
We didn't have all those contractor employees before 9/11....

And we had terrorists running around blowing our shit up all over the world as a result.

VFFTSGT
02-15-2013, 02:24 AM
And we had terrorists running around blowing our shit up all over the world as a result.

Are you sure you are not getting post 9/11 confused with pre 9/11?

BRUWIN
02-15-2013, 05:27 AM
Are you sure you are not getting post 9/11 confused with pre 9/11?

He said we didn't have all these contractors prior to 9/11...and we didn't. At least not in intel. And thanks to Bill Clinton we didn't have a clue about Al Qeada and what they were gonna blow up next. Intel prior to 9/11 was reactive rather than proactive. We've since brought many contractors into the intel mix with many years experience....and since 9/11 how many attacks have we experienced?

Banned
02-15-2013, 05:33 AM
@ Road: Good list, I agree with almost all of it, except your first line:


1. Inspections: make them all in house, no more flying hundreds of inspectors around the country and world in a non-stop waste of money that only proves we are good at making shit look right at the very last second.

THAT sounds like a TERRIBLE idea. So if inspections are all "in house"... that completely defeats the point of an inspection.

needmorecowbell
03-07-2013, 03:43 PM
There will be lots of shocked folks running around. As far as TACPs go, no more cool gear, cool schools and awesome TDYs. Only long TDY will be to kawait, NTC, JRTC. Schools will be airborne and air assault, and only time you'll control is on a range once every 3 months for currency. Lots of training will happen in the back woods.

They are cutting NTC rotations left and right now!

Sperry1989
03-07-2013, 03:51 PM
I propose the following three ideas for non-flying bases.

1. Four day work week based on 10 hr days--ENTIRE base shuts down on 5th day and weekends--no exceptions
2. Hire more partime civil service positions while reducing full time positions
3. Demolish unused buildings and facilities

SomeRandomGuy
03-07-2013, 04:11 PM
I have a great idea that would save millions right away. From now on "dignitaries" such as Chief of Staff, CMSgt of the Air Force, Various General's, etc will no longer be allowed to go on site visits. If these dignitaries want to have a talk with the Airmen they can use DCO (defense connect online). This also means we will not have to pay them tax free pay every month for the 1 day they spent in the AOR for "morale puposes". We would also save money based on increased productivity from not having to attend all calls that no one cares about anyways.

I bet if we ask someone like Crusty (currently deployed) we would find these visits are mostly useless. The same question and answer forum could easily be emailed out to the entire AF. For those interested, the information would be avaliable. For those who are not, it really doesn't matter because they weren't paying attention before anyways.

imported_chipotleboy
03-07-2013, 04:29 PM
@ Road: Good list, I agree with almost all of it, except your first line:



THAT sounds like a TERRIBLE idea. So if inspections are all "in house"... that completely defeats the point of an inspection.

Well then let's do it by VTC. Just wheel all your inspectable items into the conference room for the participants to view on their high-def TVs at the remote sites.

Another square filled.

RobotChicken
03-08-2013, 03:01 AM
:clock Mandatory cuts of ALL services FLAG/GEN officers of 20% and keep it there,reductions to increase with the decrease of ENLISTED as a result of 'doing more with less', good for the goose.........:hurt

crwchf16
03-08-2013, 12:50 PM
Let's be honest with these budget numbers and take inflation into account. Yes we're forking out almost double than what we did in 2001 but what did we pay for a gallon of gas then? However, I do agree the excess we are spending is ridiculous and needs to be trimmed but here is how I would do it:
1. Stop paying contractors for non-working equipment (F-22 and F-35 for example) and don't pay them another dime until they fix it. If they cannot get it fixed in a year, drop the contract and restart the bidding process.
2. Go back to our old acquisition system and forget the concurrency concept as a bad idea that just doesn't work.
3. Take a hard, realistic look at Ops tempo vs. actual requirements with the goal of establishing something sustainable that will not wear down what equipment (and people) we currently have. As it is we are running both into the ground, especially the people.
4. I like the idea posted earlier about unaccompanied overseas tours of 1 to 2 years max. Also we need to close as many bases in Europe as possible. Really, do we still need to be there? Let Europe protect itself. Ditto for Asia.

JD2780
03-08-2013, 01:10 PM
They are cutting NTC rotations left and right now!


Thank goodness. People can stop dropping their morale at the big rock before the gate. Yea NTC needs to happen, but not in the frequency it was happening.

Brewhound
03-08-2013, 03:02 PM
MORE GENERAL OFFICERS.....That is the first thing I would cut. We dont need all of them.

Pullinteeth
04-16-2013, 01:09 PM
So let me get this straight...the AF can't think of a single thing that could be cut except TA and since they got their hand slapped when they tried that, they are now asking for people to tell them what to cut?

"Fellow Airmen,

I need your help. Throughout my Air Force career I’ve learned that when times get tough, Airmen consistently figure out a way to "get it done." Today, complex security and fiscal challenges reemphasize the need to capture and implement your innovative ideas for the Air Force and for the Nation. I want to hear from you and I encourage your participation in a 30 day "Airmen Powered by Innovation" call for ideas on how we can cut costs and better fly, fight and win.

There are two options for you to participate in this effort. During the month of May, you can provide your ideas using the Air Force Portal or the Air Force's public website (links below).

1. The Air Force Portal link provides for submission of ideas and/or an interactive discussion forum:

https://www.my.af.mil <https://www.my.af.mil/>

2. The Air Force Public Site is set up for access via your mobile device or home computers:

http://www.af.mil <http://www.af.mil/>

The future of our Air Force starts with you. Providing global reach, vigilance and power requires all of us working together as an unbeatable team. As we face fiscal challenges, we must make prudent choices to ensure the Air Force is able to unleash the full potential of airpower. Each of us must find new ways to win the fight, strengthen the team, and shape the future. Every Airman, every day, can make a difference. Be that Airman and let me know your thoughts on how we can better fly, fight and win!

LARRY O. SPENCER
General, USAF
Vice Chief of Staff"

JD2780
04-16-2013, 01:10 PM
Generals!!!! Get rid of a good portion of them.

Dickie
04-16-2013, 06:30 PM
I create an officer every time I take a dump.

That is awesome!

Kicker47
04-16-2013, 08:45 PM
Three words: "Global Strike Challenge". :sad

MajesticThunder
04-16-2013, 09:32 PM
http://www.rs.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/070125-F-4884R-022.jpg

How about a moratorium halting extravagant USAF recruiting advertizing and sponsorship contracts with only exception being for www.airforce.com which more than adequately offers interested prospects interactive chat and points of contact for their local recruiters.

Any other form of expensive, glitzy recruiting is surplus to mission requirements. Because very basic good Business 101 practices of recruit “supply & demand” apply especially in dire fiscal times.

What party line are they indoctrinating at that Air Force Academy? :tinfoil3

Perhaps Air Force Academy closure in favor of more cost effective ROTC and OTS would solve that lack of Business 101 skills or biased fiscal decision process previously highlighted and also save taxpayer money.

Pullinteeth
04-17-2013, 01:05 PM
$10 Billion a year right here;

http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20130417/NEWS/304170001/Report-U-S-footing-greater-bill-overseas-bases

sandsjames
04-17-2013, 03:03 PM
Bring back TQM!!! That's the only way to ensure we are spending wisely.

mindurian
04-17-2013, 09:16 PM
Great Job guys: I have been retired for 3 years and things haven't gotten any better, much worse.

NASCAR thing got started because an Air Force Research Lab four star's sport was watching NASCAR, he started all kinds of stuff with. AFRL is a vast wasteland, absolutely worthless scientists, just a burearcy. One general tried to fix stuff in Human Effectiveness directorate and got fired in a few weeks.

Although a military wide problem stop paying hazardous duty pay for things that are less hazardous than other jobs (altitude chamber and others) and cut out all jumping except for special forces; parachuting was a disaster in WW11 both for the US and Germans and is just a historic relic.

Dead on comments about inspections...all I have been in the inspector just said, "this isn't the way I would do it". The worst thing was I took on a project for another shop to help them out; the IG said the program I worked was great but hammered them big time for not doing it themselves...talking about not wanting people to work together.

Flight suits Flight suits...they are only for flying and only on the days you are actually flying in an airplane that requires them. Extra washing and wear reduces the flame retardency, only rated used to wear them at flying squadrons.

Pt testing...complete three mile walk and waist circumference done at your annual physical by medics. Use medical health standards Males less than 40, females less than 36....if somebody fails dock their pay $100 a month.

The unnecessary bases are everywhere, its unbelievable how little goes on now. Guard Reserve bases are built in civilian airfields when airfields at military bases are totally empty, its rare to see an airplane flying.

One uniform to wear for outside work and another for office work...get rid of everything else.

No time based rotations, move people to fill a vacancy.

Cut out all except the awards for true above the norm stuff (like helping with an accident).

Cut narratives on OER's OPR's to one five line narrative...no stupid bullets.

to get proficiency pay for medics make them see patients over 75% of the time...no staff jobs with pro pay.

BigBaze
04-17-2013, 10:10 PM
See ya to to sending every TSgt to NCO Academy, make it correspondence, or cut it down, there is no reason to make it as long as it is. *ducks and runs from all the E9/1st Sgt types*

JD2780
04-18-2013, 12:21 AM
Great Job guys: I have been retired for 3 years and things haven't gotten any better, much worse.

NASCAR thing got started because an Air Force Research Lab four star's sport was watching NASCAR, he started all kinds of stuff with. AFRL is a vast wasteland, absolutely worthless scientists, just a burearcy. One general tried to fix stuff in Human Effectiveness directorate and got fired in a few weeks.

Although a military wide problem stop paying hazardous duty pay for things that are less hazardous than other jobs (altitude chamber and others) and cut out all jumping except for special forces; parachuting was a disaster in WW11 both for the US and Germans and is just a historic relic.

Dead on comments about inspections...all I have been in the inspector just said, "this isn't the way I would do it". The worst thing was I took on a project for another shop to help them out; the IG said the program I worked was great but hammered them big time for not doing it themselves...talking about not wanting people to work together.

Flight suits Flight suits...they are only for flying and only on the days you are actually flying in an airplane that requires them. Extra washing and wear reduces the flame retardency, only rated used to wear them at flying squadrons.

Pt testing...complete three mile walk and waist circumference done at your annual physical by medics. Use medical health standards Males less than 40, females less than 36....if somebody fails dock their pay $100 a month.

The unnecessary bases are everywhere, its unbelievable how little goes on now. Guard Reserve bases are built in civilian airfields when airfields at military bases are totally empty, its rare to see an airplane flying.

One uniform to wear for outside work and another for office work...get rid of everything else.

No time based rotations, move people to fill a vacancy.

Cut out all except the awards for true above the norm stuff (like helping with an accident).

Cut narratives on OER's OPR's to one five line narrative...no stupid bullets.

to get proficiency pay for medics make them see patients over 75% of the time...no staff jobs with pro pay.


Jumping hasn't been a disaster. Do a little research. There have been quite a few successful combat jumps. Not a relic, but a useful tactical insertion technique. How much jump experience do you have? How knowledgable are you about the history of airborne operations?

The rest you are dead on!!!

garhkal
04-18-2013, 02:48 AM
1. Inspections: make them all in house, no more flying hundreds of inspectors around the country and world in a non-stop waste of money that only proves we are good at making shit look right at the very last second.

6. PT Program: How much time and money is wasted because of this one program, we use to pay civilians, now we take people out of their job so that they can watch other squadrons. Integrity is our first core value, if you dont trust your people to do the PT test on themselves, kick us all out and start over. It also leads to time and money wasted in multiple meetings, board hearings, court martial...it's treated more seriously than being caught dead hooker in your trunk while covered in cocaine : Fix, go back to squadron doing it...take it off EPR, the end.


Yes we are supposed to have integrity.. but as has been shown several times in the past year or so, that is not as common as one hopes.. So having outside inspectors go over your stuff is needed.. BUT to save money schedule all inspections at the same time, or if possible, use commands already there to inspect others.. Same with PT.. many commands i have been at had more than 1 command doing their "Pts" at the same time, so have people from the other command do your scores..


2. Bands, All of them...worthless, pointless, pathetic tradition

3. Air Shows: nobody likes them but civilians, they don't help with recruiting, they only waste our days off and waste money on fuel/maint for the planes


Agreed.. Though would at least keep the bands that do funerals.


4. Demonstration teams: Thunderbirds, shooting teams, ect..If you are part of anything that's only mission is to make public appearances and show off your skills...you should be using those skills in the operational AF, not being flaunted around like a show poiny. This also applies to all sports teams that are more than "after work" fun.


Wouldn't that come under air shows?


5. Civilian janitors: that's what airman who are in trouble are suppose to be doing, cleaning stuff, taking out garbage, why are we paying these people to do it


Hell, have everyone clean up after themselves...


7. Personal vehicle for anyone needs to go, self explanatory


Only 2 vehicles i could see needing are the CDO and duty driver.. All else agree, get rid of.


Gyms!
Family care programs!
Dorms!
TMO! ??? What this??
G.I. Bill
BX
Commissaries
MWR
Space A
Schools (STATESIDE i agree, we have enough.. Overseas, i say keep them)..


I left in the ones i agree with should be cut..


One quarter (maybe more) of the officers in the rank of O4-O10. There are simply not enough people in service to justify all that brass. The only service that even comes close to having a pyramid-like rank structure is the USMC. To do so, would require the immediate repeal of Executive Order 13223. This was signed on 14 SEP 2001 by Bush, but has been renewed every year since (yes, that includes 4 times by President Obama).

Well said.. though i say more like 1/3rd or 1/2...


1. End all overseas accompanied tours. This would allow the closure/de-scope of huge amounts of base operating facilities/costs such as child care centers, youth programs, DoDDs schools, smaller commissary/bx, base housing, hospitals and all the infrastructure required to provide "Little America's" overseas. Make overseas tours 6/12 month remotes as they do in Korea...

Or Bahrain/diego garcia (navy).. But i do feel we spend too much money supporting people taking big families overseas..



Stop buying new computers every 2 years!

Or new furniture every time a new command comes in..
Heck on that aspect, stop lavish ceremonies every time a command changes commanding officers.


As a law abiding, US citizen taxpayer I would prefer to have a moratorium on all overseas / foreign aid sourced from my government mandated US tax dollars until we fix our domestic fiscal woe.

Especially to countries like NK, Lybia, Egypt.. Any country which has sent people to join the taliban.
BUT imo we should cut ALL foreign aid period, other than emergency relief aid until our deficit is gone..


I have a great idea that would save millions right away. From now on "dignitaries" such as Chief of Staff, CMSgt of the Air Force, Various General's, etc will no longer be allowed to go on site visits. If these dignitaries want to have a talk with the Airmen they can use DCO (defense connect online). This also means we will not have to pay them tax free pay every month for the 1 day they spent in the AOR for "morale puposes". We would also save money based on increased productivity from not having to attend all calls that no one cares about anyways.

I bet if we ask someone like Crusty (currently deployed) we would find these visits are mostly useless. The same question and answer forum could easily be emailed out to the entire AF. For those interested, the information would be avaliable. For those who are not, it really doesn't matter because they weren't paying attention before anyways.

I say damn good idea.. And this applies double to all those senators etc who make these visits..
Also if they DO wish to make them, THEY PAY out of their own damn pocket for it all..

As for some i feel need to be done (NON MIL specific)..
1) cut all congress/house of reps pay to 1/10th what it is now (this includes the president).. If they want a pay raise, have them ask their constituents have they done a good enough job to deserve one.. 5% raise per year max allowed, 75% vote required to get it.

2) Cut our damn welfare/disabled rolls. I also include things like food stamps on this, WIC (which i personally find sexist since male single parents are not iirc eligible for it). Also that program that gives free cell phones to those on WIC/Welfare...

3) As mentioned above, cut all foreign aid unless sent for post disaster relief. This stays in effect until we get rid of our almost 17 trillion deficit.

4) Cut all congressional junkets/seminars etc, like the one that got plastered all over the news in Vegas (forget the govt entity).. They want to fly somewhere for some shindig, THEY PAY themselves..

TVANSCOT
04-18-2013, 11:18 AM
Air National Guard bases like the one in Mansfield, Ohio that has one wing, two groups and four squadrons totaling 1,200 people to operate four ... count 'em ... FOUR ... C-27J Spartan airlifters.

That is not how Air Guard bases operate. Out of that 1200 you have SPS, Comm, CE, Personnel, Services (other bases have JTACS and so on....) all of which can deploy separate of any flying mission the base may have. What you really are looking at is probably 300-400 maintenance and ops (out of those probably 100-150 full time) folks who actually work with the aircraft. This similar to any active duty base that might have X full squadrons and 15,000 people working on the base (like Hill).

Pullinteeth
04-18-2013, 12:33 PM
That is not how Air Guard bases operate. Out of that 1200 you have SPS, Comm, CE, Personnel, Services (other bases have JTACS and so on....) all of which can deploy separate of any flying mission the base may have. What you really are looking at is probably 300-400 maintenance and ops (out of those probably 100-150 full time) folks who actually work with the aircraft. This similar to any active duty base that might have X full squadrons and 15,000 people working on the base (like Hill).

That is the point....you have 1,200 that could be used for the infrastructure of a base that actually had aircraft....you move the aicraft, move the people, close the base.

TVANSCOT
04-18-2013, 01:20 PM
That is the point....you have 1,200 that could be used for the infrastructure of a base that actually had aircraft....you move the aicraft, move the people, close the base.

If you go with that theory there are many bases that could be consolidated across the board. Here is another idea, line up all the aircraft in nice little rows so they are easier to refuel and post guards around.... Consolidation might save a little money, but is not necessarily the greatest idea nor is it proven to save anything (joint bases?)

Bumble78
04-18-2013, 03:15 PM
I have been stationed at a joint base, and have been TDY to a couple other joint bases. Does not make sense to me, the jobs are the same, there may be a slight savings in cops and services but I didn't see anything but legal combine.

And for moving aircraft and people to combine bases, you have to have the infrastructure in place, like ramp space, hanger space, and office space. I have not been to a base that had enough ramp or hanger space to add more than a couple of transient birds.

Tak
04-18-2013, 03:20 PM
I say allow more homesteading. If people want to stay at a base ten or twenty years let them.
Saves tons in PCs costs and dislocation allowances. Hell I saved the AF thousands by being
At minot from 02-12...know a chief who did whole 26 at minot in missile mx.

Tak
04-18-2013, 03:25 PM
I have been stationed at a joint base, and have been TDY to a couple other joint bases. Does not make sense to me, the jobs are the same, there may be a slight savings in cops and services but I didn't see anything but legal combine.

And for moving aircraft and people to combine bases, you have to have the infrastructure in place, like ramp space, hanger space, and office space. I have not been to a base that had enough ramp or hanger space to add more than a couple of transient birds.

Air Force Times September 20, 2010 Pg. 34

Service Chief Won't Support More Joint Bases

Consolidation falls short on savings, Schwartz says

By Michael Hoffman

SHAW AIR FORCE BASE, S.C. — Joint basing is a failure that has not produced the cost savings the Defense Department expected, the Air Force’s top officer said.

Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz said he will not support future joint bases and questioned whether the 12 joint bases recommended by the 2005 Base Closure and Realignment Commission should be split apart.

“The bottom line is there are some significant issues with joint bases, and over time you will see no more, that’s for sure. The question is whether we will see less,” Schwartz told a crowd of airmen after being asked if he supported the effort to consolidate military bases.

Schwartz is the first service chief to speak against plans to consolidate 26 Air Force, Army, Navy and Marine Corps installations into 12 joint bases by Oct. 1. The Air Force is the lead agency for six of the 12 bases, including Joint Base Charleston, S.C.; Joint Base McGuire-Dix-Lakehurst, N.J.; Joint Base Andrews-Naval Air Facility Washington; Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson, Alaska; Joint Base Lackland-Sam Houston-Randolph, Texas; and Joint Base Langley-Eustis, Va.

The BRAC estimated that joint basing would save the Defense Department $2.3 billion over 20 years. Schwartz said he doubts the savings estimates, but would not talk about specific dollar amounts. “We thought that joint bases would offer other cost savings. I am, and a number of other people, are coming to the conclusion that is not the case,” he said.

A 2009 Government Accountability Office report stated “it was unclear whether joint basing will result in actual savings.” Air War College published a report in February titled “Joint-Basing Funding” that said joint basing will cost the Defense Department $2.7 billion over 20 years.

“Joint-Basing is actually costing the Depart of Defense more money than if the 26 bases and posts had remained separate,” said the report written by Jeffrey K. McNeely.

Four Air Force bases — Hickham in Hawaii, Andersen on Guam, McChord in Washington state and Bolling in the District of Columbia — are now part of joint bases owned by the Navy or Army.

Schwartz said joint basing sounded good on paper. By joining the bases, the services could sign one contract for services such as trash pickup.

“It made sense and there is a business case for that,” he said.

Schwartz conceded it is still early to pass judgment on joint basing, but said he has encountered issues at his home on Joint Base Anacostia-Bolling, Washington, D.C., that go beyond money. The Air Force is the only service whose leaders in Washington live on a base operated by another service.

“The Navy owns our base and that has proven to be a little bit problematic, to be honest. I actually have to remind people that the club at Bolling Air Force Base is mine,” he said. “I know that sounds silly, but the deal is, it is important for services to have a platform where they can post people and operate. And at the moment, that is not the case for the Air Force.”

imported_SergeantJack
04-18-2013, 03:40 PM
Dear General Spencer,

I recommend immediately cutting the position of Vice Chief of Staff. What does that guy even do, anyway?

Sincerely,

Every Enlisted Person, Ever

MACHINE666
04-18-2013, 03:59 PM
Make co-ed showers and locker rooms in the gym.

Co-habited dorm rooms too. This way, airmen can't "just get married" in order to get Housing Allowance and move out!

You can also do a Wild Card draw, where two completely polar opposite people get roomed up. Imagine some dork looking like Napoleon Dynamite and some huge fat black chick who resembles Precious, share a bed and a dorm room together!

Female airmen who live in the dorms and become pregnant stay in the dorms after delivering their little thug-rat. Kids don't take up that much space!

:D :D :D :D :D

20+Years
04-18-2013, 04:15 PM
Nope... if you make the locker rooms co-ed, the 65 year old men might feel insecure walking around naked and propping thier foot up on a bench while talking to people. -ugh-

JD2780
04-18-2013, 05:13 PM
Make co-ed showers and locker rooms in the gym.

Co-habited dorm rooms too. This way, airmen can't "just get married" in order to get Housing Allowance and move out!

You can also do a Wild Card draw, where two completely polar opposite people get roomed up. Imagine some dork looking like Napoleon Dynamite and some huge fat black chick who resembles Precious, share a bed and a dorm room together!

Female airmen who live in the dorms and become pregnant stay in the dorms after delivering their little thug-rat. Kids don't take up that much space!

:D :D :D :D :D

That off spring could disrupt the aircrews precious crew rest.

SomeRandomGuy
04-18-2013, 05:28 PM
Make co-ed showers and locker rooms in the gym.

We don't need showers or locker rooms at the gym at all. We can just plant a few well placed shrubs outside. If you need to take a leak you can use the shrub. If you need to drop a dump save it for the coffee pot when you get back to the office. As far as showers go the Army and MArines get by just fine whend deployed. People can carry baby wipes if they care that much about how they smell.

imported_chipotleboy
04-18-2013, 05:42 PM
AFRL is a vast wasteland, absolutely worthless scientists, just a burearcy. One general tried to fix stuff in Human Effectiveness directorate and got fired in a few weeks.



Throwing the B.S. flag on this one. Who are you to judge the quality of the scientists? And as far as Generals being fired, I know why he got fired and it had nothing to do RH. He pissed off everybody from SECAF down to the AFMC/CV. And she was given the honors because of the way he publicly snubbed her at a program review.

ConfusedAirman
04-18-2013, 06:24 PM
That is the point....you have 1,200 that could be used for the infrastructure of a base that actually had aircraft....you move the aicraft, move the people, close the base.


But you don't have 1200 that could be used for the infrastructure of the base. Most are traditional guardsmen who come in for one weekend a month to train. AS TVANSCOT pointed out, the majority are available to deploy (and do) apart from the flying mission.

TJMAC77SP
04-18-2013, 07:22 PM
Throwing the B.S. flag on this one. Who are you to judge the quality of the scientists? And as far as Generals being fired, I know why he got fired and it had nothing to do RH. He pissed off everybody from SECAF down to the AFMC/CV. And she was given the honors because of the way he publicly snubbed her at a program review.

Which AFRL......there are several. Maybe the point is in that statement?

garhkal
04-18-2013, 07:44 PM
I say allow more homesteading. If people want to stay at a base ten or twenty years let them.
Saves tons in PCs costs and dislocation allowances. Hell I saved the AF thousands by being
At minot from 02-12...know a chief who did whole 26 at minot in missile mx.

Agreed to that.. Heck if someone wishes to try and stay at one locale (stateside) for 10+ years let them.

Tak
04-18-2013, 07:59 PM
Agreed to that.. Heck if someone wishes to try and stay at one locale (stateside) for 10+ years let them.

Damn chiefs call it gaming the system, I disagree.
As long as you keep gaining higher positions and even
Pca, who cares.

Bumble78
04-18-2013, 08:24 PM
Do we need the Pentagon channel or AFN new people?

Absinthe Anecdote
04-18-2013, 09:30 PM
That is not how Air Guard bases operate. Out of that 1200 you have SPS, Comm, CE, Personnel, Services (other bases have JTACS and so on....) all of which can deploy separate of any flying mission the base may have. What you really are looking at is probably 300-400 maintenance and ops (out of those probably 100-150 full time) folks who actually work with the aircraft. This similar to any active duty base that might have X full squadrons and 15,000 people working on the base (like Hill).

Yep, I remember looking up that Guard unit that RFD was talking about, most of that 1200 is a Red Horse unit that has nothing to do with the flying mission.

Tak
04-18-2013, 09:33 PM
Yep, I remember looking up that Guard unit that RFD was talking about, most of that 1200 is a Red Horse unit that has nothing to do with the flying mission.

Ummm calvery became chopper units in 'nam.

Absinthe Anecdote
04-18-2013, 09:48 PM
Ummm calvery became chopper units in 'nam.

Add about two dozen emoticons that have nothing to do with your off tangent comment and that would be a good Robot Chicken post.

Tak
04-18-2013, 10:17 PM
Add about two dozen emoticons that have nothing to do with your off tangent comment and that would be a good Robot Chicken post.

Red horse...calvery....get it....oh nevermind....RC out

imported_chipotleboy
04-18-2013, 11:27 PM
Which AFRL......there are several. Maybe the point is in that statement?

Even if that is the point, that is not a directorate I would call out for being worthless. Human Effectiveness Directorate has folks who are world class leaders in the field of "machine learning", also in training systems, and life support technology. I just went through an external distinguished panel review of my programs and the first thing they said was to increase collaboration with Human Effectiveness.

mindurian
04-19-2013, 03:16 AM
Throwing the B.S. flag on this one. Who are you to judge the quality of the scientists? And as far as Generals being fired, I know why he got fired and it had nothing to do RH. He pissed off everybody from SECAF down to the AFMC/CV. And she was given the honors because of the way he publicly snubbed her at a program review.

Who am I to criticize the quality of the scientists? I was a scientist in AFRL management for 4 years, I got to see exactly what went on, and I have worked as a scientist many other places so I know a little about scientific quality. Now there were some very good people at AFRL and I tried to stop some of the almost unbelievably bad practices (to the point of being unethical and corrupt) and some people praised me for what I did but many held resentments. It is just too entrenched a burearcy with too many people doing nothing but defending their funding lines. There are still some people pretending to do research on vibration, an area that died scientifically decades ago. Also many people doing their pet programs that have no real meaning to the military and might belong in a University if the scientists were competent.

TVANSCOT
04-19-2013, 11:53 AM
Yep, I remember looking up that Guard unit that RFD was talking about, most of that 1200 is a Red Horse unit that has nothing to do with the flying mission.

The assumption is (understandably) by most people, that the AF flies aircraft and that is about it. I know that is what I thought when I joined in '85. This has changed by magnitudes especially over the last 10 years where the army proved they just could not do it all.

JD2780
04-19-2013, 12:00 PM
Is cavalry not Calvary. The cav is military thing, Calvary is the mountain where Jesus was crucified.

Pullinteeth
04-19-2013, 01:56 PM
But you don't have 1200 that could be used for the infrastructure of the base. Most are traditional guardsmen who come in for one weekend a month to train. AS TVANSCOT pointed out, the majority are available to deploy (and do) apart from the flying mission.

And that is different from any other base how? The point is that it is a base with 1,200 people and four aircraft. I have been at bases (AD and Reserve) that were BRAC'd. I get that it sucks. The point of this thread isn't how you can make serving as convenient as possible for as many people, it is how to save $$... Moving the aircraft to a base that already has aircraft (or conversely, moving more aircraft to the ANG base), can save money by reducing the infrastucture requirements....

This isn't rocket surgery...


Yep, I remember looking up that Guard unit that RFD was talking about, most of that 1200 is a Red Horse unit that has nothing to do with the flying mission.

And RHS can be moved to another base without too much problem... The AFR has done it dozens of times.... Not FUN but can save $$$...

Tak
04-19-2013, 02:03 PM
Is cavalry not Calvary. The cav is military thing, Calvary is the mountain where Jesus was crucified.

Grammar rule #3
Make sure you use proper grammar when
Correcting someone else's grammar.

imported_chipotleboy
04-19-2013, 07:03 PM
Who am I to criticize the quality of the scientists? I was a scientist in AFRL management for 4 years, I got to see exactly what went on, and I have worked as a scientist many other places so I know a little about scientific quality. Now there were some very good people at AFRL and I tried to stop some of the almost unbelievably bad practices (to the point of being unethical and corrupt) and some people praised me for what I did but many held resentments. It is just too entrenched a burearcy with too many people doing nothing but defending their funding lines. There are still some people pretending to do research on vibration, an area that died scientifically decades ago. Also many people doing their pet programs that have no real meaning to the military and might belong in a University if the scientists were competent.

Oh...so you were a scientist in "management" and that gives you the right to assess the quality of the work done in the tech directorates. First you say we're all worthless, now you say there are some very good people. Which is it? Perhaps you should get your story straight before you slander thousands of people. My guess is you were one of the XP types who liked to pretend to be in charge of our research, bad mouth us to our leadership and commanders, and take the credit for our work when we succeeded in spite of your interference. Thank God our last two commanders have delayered the headquarters and forced people to come back to the tech directorates to do some real engineering work instead of making stoplight charts in Powerpoint.

(BTW, nobody ever made Fellow out of HQ AFRL)

I've also worked in a lot of other places as an AFRL customer, like ACC and the intel community where we received the fruits of AFRL labor. They delivered some neat stuff just in time for ALLIED FORCE that if we hadn't got it, we would have lost a lot of aircrew. And they delivered and are still delivering a lot of cool stuff for the GWOT. The people who count (our customers) have a much different attitude about AFRL than you do.

I wasn't aware that research on "vibration" has died out scientifically. That would be a surprise to the people in sensor exploitation and spacecraft dynamics. Maybe they can use your extensive vibration expertise on combat ID of difficult targets, and georegistration of imagery from microUAVs. They'd love to hear that you solved their problems. And as far as your "pet programs" having no relevance to the military, don't be too quick to judge unless you have the whole story of why the research is being done. Twenty years ago, DoD invested a lot of money into breast cancer detection research. It doesn't sound like a relevant military problem, but it was a good way to get started in automatic target recognition research by working on a relatively simple problem to advance the state of the art before taking on a more challenging problem like combat ID. A lot of "not relevant" research falls into that category. With budgets being as tight as they are now, it's very difficult to get anything approved without a compelling story tied to a user need, even if it's just a vague need expressed for 30 years down the road. Even in the best of times, most of our budget came from external sources like DARPA, and we have to compete aggressively with the Navy for that business.

JD2780
04-19-2013, 07:12 PM
Grammar rule #3
Make sure you use proper grammar when
Correcting someone else's grammar.

Wasnt correcting grammar. I was correct the reference of cav. It's a cav or cavalry unit.

Tak
04-19-2013, 07:32 PM
Wasnt correcting grammar. I was correct the reference of cav. It's a cav or cavalry.

Cav...cavalry...who gives a shit...

- H. Gilmore

JD2780
04-19-2013, 10:05 PM
Cav...cavalry...who gives a shit...

- H. Gilmore

Well done sir well done. If you'll excuse I hear the asteroids game calling my name from the game room.

Tak
04-19-2013, 10:06 PM
Well done sir well done. If you'll excuse I hear the asteroids game calling my name from the game room.

Girlfriend's dead, got hit by a truck...

JD2780
04-19-2013, 10:28 PM
Girlfriend's dead, got hit by a truck...

You eat of shit for breakfast?

RetC141BFCC
04-20-2013, 01:58 PM
how bouts you stop all this BS about 4 failures on PT test before being CONSIDERED for discharge, one failure..hell, i'll even say...1 failure auto discharge, dont score over a 90 EVERY YEAR and you can't be reenlisting...that'll save some coin biatches

Can I ask you a question? I am new here but are you serious? Some of the best mechanics I have ever worked with could not pass todays PT standards. The mission of the AF is to fly and fight not to be a PT god. Let me know how the works out for you on the outside

RetC141BFCC
04-20-2013, 02:03 PM
How? I cut grass as a Airman its called doing more then a 8 hour shift. In the mainteance world when I retired in 03 we still cleaned our own shops and hangers. We never shut down for training. I always knew there were two seperate Air Forces those that worked lots of OT and those who did not. I would never change a thing all that work got me the great job I have now.

FLAPS
04-20-2013, 03:11 PM
Can I ask you a question? I am new here but are you serious? Some of the best mechanics I have ever worked with could not pass todays PT standards. The mission of the AF is to fly and fight not to be a PT god. Let me know how the works out for you on the outside

PT God has been around a while and hasn't hooked a fish in very long time. Looks like he got one today.

mindurian
04-21-2013, 08:10 PM
Oh...so you were a scientist in "management" and that gives you the right to assess the quality of the work done in the tech directorates. First you say we're all worthless, now you say there are some very good people. Which is it? Perhaps you should get your story straight before you slander thousands of people. My guess is you were one of the XP types who liked to pretend to be in charge of our research, bad mouth us to our leadership and commanders, and take the credit for our work when we succeeded in spite of your interference. Thank God our last two commanders have delayered the headquarters and forced people to come back to the tech directorates to do some real engineering work instead of making stoplight charts in Powerpoint.

(BTW, nobody ever made Fellow out of HQ AFRL)

I've also worked in a lot of other places as an AFRL customer, like ACC and the intel community where we received the fruits of AFRL labor. They delivered some neat stuff just in time for ALLIED FORCE that if we hadn't got it, we would have lost a lot of aircrew. And they delivered and are still delivering a lot of cool stuff for the GWOT. The people who count (our customers) have a much different attitude about AFRL than you do.

I wasn't aware that research on "vibration" has died out scientifically. That would be a surprise to the people in sensor exploitation and spacecraft dynamics. Maybe they can use your extensive vibration expertise on combat ID of difficult targets, and georegistration of imagery from microUAVs. They'd love to hear that you solved their problems. And as far as your "pet programs" having no relevance to the military, don't be too quick to judge unless you have the whole story of why the research is being done. Twenty years ago, DoD invested a lot of money into breast cancer detection research. It doesn't sound like a relevant military problem, but it was a good way to get started in automatic target recognition research by working on a relatively simple problem to advance the state of the art before taking on a more challenging problem like combat ID. A lot of "not relevant" research falls into that category. With budgets being as tight as they are now, it's very difficult to get anything approved without a compelling story tied to a user need, even if it's just a vague need expressed for 30 years down the road. Even in the best of times, most of our budget came from external sources like DARPA, and we have to compete aggressively with the Navy for that business.

Hey, Calm down a bit...let me give you an analogy, everybody knows our political system, particularly the legislative branch is totally unfunctional... that doesn't mean all senators and representatives are bad. Not everything done at AFRL is worthless, but most of it is...and that is what my bosses would tell me privately when I worked there. I saw one section using research techniques outdated 50 years ago, but they kept defending what they were doing, I tried to get them closed and people hollered at me initially but finally my bosses, despite saying they disagreed with me, shut them down.

When I was talking about vibration I was referring to human effects of vibration.

The breast cancer argument sounds like you had some time with NASA, they make the same type of illogical arguments, although there may be exceptions, you don't justify scientific reserach by working in unnecessary areas...of course a stopped clock is right twice a day.

I've heard all the arguments about AFRL's importance, but privately most AFRL management would agree with me about stuff other than their own.

You would be great working in XP!

JD2780
04-21-2013, 09:22 PM
How? I cut grass as a Airman its called doing more then a 8 hour shift. In the mainteance world when I retired in 03 we still cleaned our own shops and hangers. We never shut down for training. I always knew there were two seperate Air Forces those that worked lots of OT and those who did not. I would never change a thing all that work got me the great job I have now.

TACPs still do that because the army doesn't have people come and clean the buildings. The troops do it. We mowed, we vacuumed, we mopped, we wiped windows and mirrors. Taking responsibility for your house.

There are good mechanics and there are good Airmen. Good Airmen can pass the PT test, test well on written exams, and do their job really well. Good mechanics are good mechanics.

imported_chipotleboy
04-22-2013, 05:22 PM
Hey, Calm down a bit...let me give you an analogy, everybody knows our political system, particularly the legislative branch is totally unfunctional... that doesn't mean all senators and representatives are bad. Not everything done at AFRL is worthless, but most of it is...and that is what my bosses would tell me privately when I worked there. I saw one section using research techniques outdated 50 years ago, but they kept defending what they were doing, I tried to get them closed and people hollered at me initially but finally my bosses, despite saying they disagreed with me, shut them down.

When I was talking about vibration I was referring to human effects of vibration.

The breast cancer argument sounds like you had some time with NASA, they make the same type of illogical arguments, although there may be exceptions, you don't justify scientific reserach by working in unnecessary areas...of course a stopped clock is right twice a day.

I've heard all the arguments about AFRL's importance, but privately most AFRL management would agree with me about stuff other than their own.

You would be great working in XP!

How gracious of you to admit that some of us know what we're doing.

As far as your bosses...I suggest the waste is there, among your XP brethren. Most people I know in XP are the useless ones we got rid of from the tech directorates.

And the breast cancer argument is sound. If you take on a complicated problem like combat ID straightaway, you will wander in the wilderness for decades not making progress. Better to start on a simple problem to develop the state of the art and accomplish something useful, then when the state-of-the-art is sufficiently advanced you can make progress on the harder problems. It's because we know how to do research that NASA calls us in whenever they have problems.

And that is the true measure of our value...how we're seen by our customers. Hardly a month goes by that I'm not contacted by someone in the user community looking for S&T support. They come straight to me, not through the XP types who are supposed to handle the customer interaction. That user opinion is what I care about, and not the opinion of some disgruntled HQ types in the long fading twilight of their mediocre careers. And especially not the opinion of the fired AFRL/CC who last I heard was running a junk hauling company.

RetC141BFCC
04-29-2013, 03:42 PM
TACPs still do that because the army doesn't have people come and clean the buildings. The troops do it. We mowed, we vacuumed, we mopped, we wiped windows and mirrors. Taking responsibility for your house.

There are good mechanics and there are good Airmen. Good Airmen can pass the PT test, test well on written exams, and do their job really well. Good mechanics are good mechanics.

JD
I rather have a good Air Force Mechanic working on a transport aircraft I was getting ready to Fly on then a Good PT test taker or one who can take a test.

JD2780
04-29-2013, 05:21 PM
JD
I rather have a good Air Force Mechanic working on a transport aircraft I was getting ready to Fly on then a Good PT test taker or one who can take a test.

If he is in the military than his job is to do both. Not one or the other. That is what separates us for the guys turning wrenches for united or delta. I understand where you're coming from. I'd want a good maintenance guy working on my equipment as well. However, if he over weight and can't deploy then I can't bring him with me and he is no good. Get me a guy that is good at both.