PDA

View Full Version : Tuition Assistance & The Budget



imported_DannyJ
02-09-2013, 06:29 AM
So, with all the impending craziness of budgetary cuts and what it entails, why hasn't TA been cut? Seriously, we have the GI/Post 9/11 Bill to pay for school once we're out, and we have less and less people on active duty, not to mention how ridiculous it is for people to take time away from work for school...

Why hasn't the shit been cut? :smash

CYBERFX1024
02-09-2013, 07:04 AM
Who knows actually.... The only service who actually tried to cut back was the Marine Corps. Then they got a huge backlash from it they had to reverse that decision.

Robert F. Dorr
02-09-2013, 11:53 AM
Who knows actually.... The only service who actually tried to cut back was the Marine Corps. Then they got a huge backlash from it they had to reverse that decision.

Think of the money we could save if we just got rid of them entirely.

technomage1
02-09-2013, 12:04 PM
Think of the money we could save if we just got rid of them entirely.

Ok, but then don't require a CCAF for MSgt and above.

imported_DannyJ
02-09-2013, 12:43 PM
Ok, but then don't require a CCAF for MSgt and above.

I'm good with that.

Blue Warrior
02-09-2013, 01:10 PM
Ok, but then don't require a CCAF for MSgt and above.

I don't recall paying a dime for CLEP or DANTES when I got my CCAF. I guess things have changed since 1995.

71Fish
02-09-2013, 02:13 PM
Why do you people hate education?

imported_DannyJ
02-09-2013, 03:00 PM
I got mine w/o gov assistance. If I want more, I have the GI Bill.

sandsjames
02-09-2013, 03:07 PM
Have mentioned many times that TA needs to go. We've got the GI Bill. People who talk about not needing a CCAF (which we don't) if we lost TA are misguided. Paying for it on your own is showing you are going above and beyond. It's like the difference of volunteering off duty vs on duty.

Even if one could argue that TA should stay, there is NO WAY spouses TA can be justified. That should have been gone years ago (or never implemented).

RAIDTHIS
02-09-2013, 03:17 PM
Think of the money we could save if we just got rid of them entirely.

Who is them?

Absinthe Anecdote
02-09-2013, 03:33 PM
Who is them?

I thought he meant get rid of the Marines but I'm not sure.

Bob is a very strong advocate of air power, especially long-range heavy bombers. He kind of reminds me of Curtis Lemay in his thinking on military doctrine.

Robert F. Dorr
02-09-2013, 03:34 PM
Who is them?

The Marine Corps. That's 100% clear in the original post.

Robert F. Dorr
02-09-2013, 03:34 PM
I thought he meant get rid of the Marines but I'm not sure.

Bob is a very strong advocate of air power, especially long-range heavy bombers. He kind of reminds me of Curtis Lemay in his thinking on military doctrine.

Curtis LeMay, not so much. Alexander Seversky.

Robert F. Dorr
02-09-2013, 03:35 PM
I like TA and hope the budget cuts won't affect Lilly's web site.

Rainmaker
02-09-2013, 03:44 PM
I like TA and hope the budget cuts won't affect Lilly's web site.

Looks like Lilly has already had plenty of cuts made to her T&A

71Fish
02-09-2013, 03:48 PM
I got mine w/o gov assistance. If I want more, I have the GI Bill.

That's admirable of you. I'm not being a smart ass, I seriously mean that. I wish I had that kind of drive. But if it wasn't for the gov "assistance" I probably would not have earned my degree. It took tuition being free for me to get off my lazy ass and stop making excuses.

Rainmaker
02-09-2013, 03:51 PM
I don't recall paying a dime for CLEP or DANTES when I got my CCAF. I guess things have changed since 1995.

Standardized testing to objectively measure a person's knowledge of a subject? Das Raciss..

imported_DannyJ
02-09-2013, 03:52 PM
Who is them?

I believe he was insinuating getting rid of the Marine Corps.

Blue Warrior
02-09-2013, 06:56 PM
Standardized testing to objectively measure a person's knowledge of a subject? Das Raciss..

It cracked me up to be "objectively" evaluated on my PUBLIC speaking ability by speaking to a tape recorder while sitting alone in a room for 10 minutes.

Rainmaker
02-09-2013, 07:16 PM
It cracked me up to be "objectively" evaluated on my PUBLIC speaking ability by speaking to a tape recorder while sitting alone in a room for 10 minutes.

That test alone proves that everyone can achieve at least 3 semester hours of college credit. Dale Carnegie would roll over in his grave!

technomage1
02-09-2013, 07:24 PM
I don't recall paying a dime for CLEP or DANTES when I got my CCAF. I guess things have changed since 1995.

I'm the wrong person to ask about CLEP or DANTES. I came in with a bachelors and am currently working on my masters. Neither of these is from banana university, unlike the CCAF - which I got with a transfer of credits and only because the AF required that I get it for MSgt or above. Oh, I know that requirement doesn't officially exist, but if you hope to get an end of tour dec, a 5 on your EPR or promotion to SMSgt at my unit you'd better have the CCAF if you're an E7.

Only in the AF would an associates degree in your field outweigh a masters.

Anyway, remove the stupidity surrounding the CCAF - or better yet kill it- and I have no problem with removing the TA.

grimreaper
02-09-2013, 07:45 PM
I'm the wrong person to ask about CLEP or DANTES. I came in with a bachelors and am currently working on my masters. Neither of these is from banana university, unlike the CCAF - which I got with a transfer of credits and only because the AF required that I get it for MSgt or above. Oh, I know that requirement doesn't officially exist, but if you hope to get an end of tour dec, a 5 on your EPR or promotion to SMSgt at my unit you'd better have the CCAF if you're an E7.

Only in the AF would an associates degree in your field outweigh a masters.

Anyway, remove the stupidity surrounding the CCAF - or better yet kill it- and I have no problem with removing the TA.

Who has ever said anything about a CCAF "outweighing" a Masters? The AF has basically said that is you want to progress past E-7, you need to have it. If someone already has a degree and can just transfer credits to fulfill the requirement, I'm not sure what the big deal is. I can think of a lot better things to be bitching about.

If someone isn't even willing to do that, when all it's going to cost them is a transcript, they probably have no business wearing SMSgt of Chief stripes to begin with.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-09-2013, 07:45 PM
I'm the wrong person to ask about CLEP or DANTES. I came in with a bachelors and am currently working on my masters. Neither of these is from banana university, unlike the CCAF - which I got with a transfer of credits and only because the AF required that I get it for MSgt or above. Oh, I know that requirement doesn't officially exist, but if you hope to get an end of tour dec, a 5 on your EPR or promotion to SMSgt at my unit you'd better have the CCAF if you're an E7.

Only in the AF would an associates degree in your field outweigh a masters.

Anyway, remove the stupidity surrounding the CCAF - or better yet kill it- and I have no problem with removing the TA.

I’ve even heard talk that sometimes having a master’s degree can be detrimental in terms of promotion board scores for enlisted.

The board can view it as you’ve spent too much time looking out for yourself instead of the Air Force.

That sort of thing changes from year to year but I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that a bullet in your EPR about being the Pancake Breakfast Manager helps you while having a Master’s Degree in Project Management is detrimental.

Robert F. Dorr
02-09-2013, 08:01 PM
I’ve even heard talk that sometimes having a master’s degree can be detrimental in terms of promotion board scores for enlisted.

The board can view it as you’ve spent too much time looking out for yourself instead of the Air Force.

That sort of thing changes from year to year but I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that a bullet in your EPR about being the Pancake Breakfast Manager helps you while having a Master’s Degree in Project Management is detrimental.

Because it's probably 100% accurate, this post is really disturbing.

Blue Warrior
02-09-2013, 08:18 PM
I'm the wrong person to ask about CLEP or DANTES. I came in with a bachelors and am currently working on my masters. Neither of these is from banana university, unlike the CCAF - which I got with a transfer of credits and only because the AF required that I get it for MSgt or above. Oh, I know that requirement doesn't officially exist, but if you hope to get an end of tour dec, a 5 on your EPR or promotion to SMSgt at my unit you'd better have the CCAF if you're an E7.

Only in the AF would an associates degree in your field outweigh a masters.

Anyway, remove the stupidity surrounding the CCAF - or better yet kill it- and I have no problem with removing the TA.

I'm all for killing the little "land of make-believe" CCAF. If the AF was serious about higher Ed, then they'd require people to get real degrees that actually require you to take classes.

grimreaper
02-09-2013, 08:26 PM
I'm all for killing the little "land of make-believe" CCAF. If the AF was serious about higher Ed, then they'd require people to get real degrees that actually require you to take classes.

If a CCAF wasn't a "real" degree, then they would not be an accredited university and other schools would not accept any transfer credits from them. Neither is the case. You have to take classes to complete your general education requirements or take CLEP or DANTES exams, which is an acceptable means of doing so for every Associate's program in any school I'm aware of.

grimreaper
02-09-2013, 08:49 PM
After earning the coveted CCAF, I was quite disappointed to be told by a PA Community College, then again at a four-year state school, the NO CLEP or DANTES would be accepted. Honestly, I couldn't blame them.

After each test I took I was convinced I failed, only to find out I passed and "earned" 3 credits.

Sure, CCAF is accredited, but it's hardly a degree worth bragging about to anyone outside the AF. Sorry, but it's true.

LOL, then you picked some bad schools to try to enroll in. A community college that wouldn't accept CLEP or DANTES? I would have laughed in their faces. Credit for CLEPs is based on the American Council on Education (ACE) recommendations and has nothing to do with the military. They are accepted in over 2900 schools.

Nobody is "bragging" about anything. A CCAF is a stepping stone to get a Bachelor's, and considering that the AU-ABC program exists, it is obviously is not worthless.

MCPO_USN
02-09-2013, 08:55 PM
Think of the money we could save if we just got rid of them entirely.

If we get rid of the USMC we should also absorb the USAF back into the USA.

garhkal
02-09-2013, 09:32 PM
Why do you people hate education?

Too many people milk it, then get out saying "Thanks uncle sam, up yours!"


Even if one could argue that TA should stay, there is NO WAY spouses TA can be justified. That should have been gone years ago (or never implemented).

Most definitely. The service member is the one serving to earn the privilege for TA, and i never saw it ok to give it to spouses/dependents.

Quixotic
02-09-2013, 09:50 PM
So, with all the impending craziness of budgetary cuts and what it entails, why hasn't TA been cut? Seriously, we have the GI/Post 9/11 Bill to pay for school once we're out, and we have less and less people on active duty, not to mention how ridiculous it is for people to take time away from work for school...

Why hasn't the shit been cut? :smash

It's one of the benefits that attract people like me to volunteer for this commitment, and in the end, stick with it.

Furthermore, what does having fewer people on active duty have to do with it?

And I don't know of any one using TA, myself included, that gets to take time off of work to go to school. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I haven't seen it...

technomage1
02-09-2013, 10:11 PM
I’ve even heard talk that sometimes having a master’s degree can be detrimental in terms of promotion board scores for enlisted.

The board can view it as you’ve spent too much time looking out for yourself instead of the Air Force.

That sort of thing changes from year to year but I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that a bullet in your EPR about being the Pancake Breakfast Manager helps you while having a Master’s Degree in Project Management is detrimental.

You had better darn well look after yourself because the AF won't. They expect lifelong commitment now but aren't willing to provide the same. Force shaping took care of that.

You can do everything right but still get royally screwed in the end. Look at Colton Reed. Yes, the AF took care of him - eventually, after a public shaming.

grimreaper
02-09-2013, 11:14 PM
In 1996 two reputable PA state schools did not accept DANTES or CLEP, so back then the CCAF was absolutely worthless to me. I'm just going off of experience.

Oh, in 1996 I guess that could very well be possible. Of course, back then, education wasn't being pushed nearly as hard as it is now.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-10-2013, 12:11 AM
In 1996 two reputable PA state schools did not accept DANTES or CLEP, so back then the CCAF was absolutely worthless to me. I'm just going off of experience.

So I guess you didn’t participate in the graduation ceremony, huh?

One of you MSgts still on active duty should suggest that a Command Chief and a Top 3 award be created for the two highest GPAs of each quarterly graduation.

That would be a nice little crusade you could launch at the next TOP 3 meeting. You don’t have to worry about getting AF level approval; just make it an award presented by the local Command Chief and TOP3.

You should be able to stick the Command Chief with paying for one of them out of his pocket if you are crafty enough.

You’ll have all the Chiefs beaming at you and you can keep from feeling like you are suggesting that just for EPR fodder by telling yourself that you are doing it as a form of sarcasm and ridicule.
It’s easy to play the game, just delude yourself.

Blue Warrior
02-10-2013, 12:41 AM
So I guess you didn’t participate in the graduation ceremony, huh?

One of you MSgts still on active duty should suggest that a Command Chief and a Top 3 award be created for the two highest GPAs of each quarterly graduation.

That would be a nice little crusade you could launch at the next TOP 3 meeting. You don’t have to worry about getting AF level approval; just make it an award presented by the local Command Chief and TOP3.

You should be able to stick the Command Chief with paying for one of them out of his pocket if you are crafty enough.

You’ll have all the Chiefs beaming at you and you can keep from feeling like you are suggesting that just for EPR fodder by telling yourself that you are doing it as a form of sarcasm and ridicule.
It’s easy to play the game, just delude yourself.

I didn't go to my graduation, but had I done so I wouldn't have had a GPA since I CLEP and DANTES my way to a degree. Good suggestion though, and I'll pass it on to one of my SNCOs!

Robert F. Dorr
02-10-2013, 12:56 AM
Bet you a GPA and raise a CLEP and a DANTES, plus an SNCO, if you'll QSL the IBA in the AOR.

And, oh, by the way, any reference to study, scholastic attainment, grades or degrees should be forbidden from appearing in your performance rating. The rating should tell the reader whether you performed your duty and whether you should be promoted, nothing else.

omertalifestyle
02-10-2013, 01:29 AM
I got my CCAF recently. I've wanted to get it for a long time just to say I did it, but I was too focused on being good at my job. It wasn't until a realized that I have to prepare for life after the Air Force that I started to go to school. Since I decided to give my wife my Post 9/11 GI Bill, I use TA for every class in conjunction with Pell Grants. When it dawned on me that I've given 11 years of my life to the USAF only to potentially be shown the door on what amount to technicalities and that my experience and proficiency at my job really don't matter, I decided to further my education where I could get a job on the outside where all that is really important is how well you perform your job and other factors such as your ability to run don't matter. I will leave the Air Force and thank Big Blue for my CCAF, my A&P license, and I should be nearly done with my bachelors. I will also thank them for allowing me to provide my wife a way to get her degree so that we can both work at places other than Wal-Mart and McDonalds.

Robert F. Dorr
02-10-2013, 01:58 AM
I got my CCAF recently. I've wanted to get it for a long time just to say I did it, but I was too focused on being good at my job. It wasn't until a realized that I have to prepare for life after the Air Force that I started to go to school. Since I decided to give my wife my Post 9/11 GI Bill, I use TA for every class in conjunction with Pell Grants. When it dawned on me that I've given 11 years of my life to the USAF only to potentially be shown the door on what amount to technicalities and that my experience and proficiency at my job really don't matter, I decided to further my education where I could get a job on the outside where all that is really important is how well you perform your job and other factors such as your ability to run don't matter. I will leave the Air Force and thank Big Blue for my CCAF, my A&P license, and I should be nearly done with my bachelors. I will also thank them for allowing me to provide my wife a way to get her degree so that we can both work at places other than Wal-Mart and McDonalds.

Help me to understand why you would study with CCAF if you're at a base where there's a college or university nearby. Does a sheepskin from CCAF mean anything to anybody in The World?

A&P license. Now there's something useful. But CCAF?

cloudFFVII
02-10-2013, 02:04 AM
I disagree with the premise of eliminating TA.

Failed weapon/equipment programs and computer programs (hello, DIEMRS) have cost the AF far more money then TA ever possibly could.

If TA is such a drag, then that means everyone is using it to get their degree. Right?

Yet less than 1% of the enlisted side (at least) have a Master's degree. And I believe it's under 20% have a Bachelor's.

TA is needed, especially with the standup of the Post 9/11 Transfer of Education Benefits (TEB) program.

If you remove TA, the member really has little choice but to then use their Post 9/11 for themselves. And it would be yet something else that punishes family members.

And, while my expectation is you guys will respond with both guns blazing, keep in mind outside of 1 program that requires VA approval, if a service member dies, their dependents will not qualify for educational benefits if they have not utilized TEB. If a member is led into a lane where they have to use their Post 9/11 GI Bill that action will not occur.

TA for spouses, 100% agree: With the TEB program, that need is satisfied and should be eliminated. But I think, given the climate we are about to enter into with Sequestering and Force Management, it would be very, very bad to take out TA. I will wager, however, that it will go from 100% to 75% if Sequestering becomes reality.

Robert F. Dorr
02-10-2013, 02:31 AM
Yet less than 1% of the enlisted side (at least) have a Master's degree. And I believe it's under 20% have a Bachelor's.

I don't know how to find out but I would have guessed that in the Air Force the percentage of enlisted members with a bachelor's degree would be much higher (although I hope they don't award one to anybody who puts two spaces between sentences).

omertalifestyle
02-10-2013, 02:35 AM
Help me to understand why you would study with CCAF if you're at a base where there's a college or university nearby. Does a sheepskin from CCAF mean anything to anybody in The World?

A&P license. Now there's something useful. But CCAF?

Actually I have heard from a few people that have separated that the CCAF actually does give them a slight advantage in the job market, but only a very small advantage. That combined with a Honorable discharge shows a company that not only did you serve your country faithfully but it also shows that you were willing to self improve while you were doing it.

Also the classes I took for my CCAF also applied towards my bachelors so it was taking a few classes to achieve two different goals.

KellyinAvon
02-10-2013, 02:44 AM
After earning the coveted CCAF, I was quite disappointed to be told by a PA Community College, then again at a four-year state school, the NO CLEP or DANTES would be accepted. Honestly, I couldn't blame them.

After each test I took I was convinced I failed, only to find out I passed and "earned" 3 credits.

Sure, CCAF is accredited, but it's hardly a degree worth bragging about to anyone outside the AF. Sorry, but it's true.

You're starting to sound like FLAPS there Blue Warrior, you need to cut that sh!t out.

KellyinAvon
02-10-2013, 02:46 AM
Because it's probably 100% accurate, this post is really disturbing.

What Bob said.

efmbman
02-10-2013, 03:01 AM
And, oh, by the way, any reference to study, scholastic attainment, grades or degrees should be forbidden from appearing in your performance rating. The rating should tell the reader whether you performed your duty and whether you should be promoted, nothing else.

I had a Command Sergeant Major once that stated plainly for the entire command to hear that NCOs with a degree would not be looked upon favorably. The reason? College is time-consuming. Therefore, he would be left to wonder how much of your duty time was spent studying, writing papers or taking a test online when you should have been focused on the mission and taking care of your soldiers.

KellyinAvon
02-10-2013, 03:12 AM
My question on eliminating TA is, would it matter? How much is it compared to other bottomless pits of money spent by DoD and what's the return on investment? Is it part of the 80% caused by the 20% ? (thank you Mr. Pareto)

Robert F. Dorr
02-10-2013, 03:20 AM
Actually I have heard from a few people that have separated that the CCAF actually does give them a slight advantage in the job market, but only a very small advantage. That combined with a Honorable discharge shows a company that not only did you serve your country faithfully but it also shows that you were willing to self improve while you were doing it.

Also the classes I took for my CCAF also applied towards my bachelors so it was taking a few classes to achieve two different goals.

A slight advantage over what? No college? College from an institution in the civilian world? What?

I think an employer is more interested in the practical skills, abilities, common sense and maturity you get from the military than in knowing (harp, here) that you "did...serve your country faithfully."

omertalifestyle
02-10-2013, 04:38 AM
A slight advantage over what? No college? College from an institution in the civilian world? What?

I think an employer is more interested in the practical skills, abilities, common sense and maturity you get from the military than in knowing (harp, here) that you "did...serve your country faithfully."

Sometimes I feel employers are looking for other qualities on top of what you can do. Items such as how you handle stress, are you able to multitask, can you respond well to change. I'm not saying that the CCAF is something that addresses these concerns, but the fact that it encompasses basic training, technical training, management and leadership training, and then the few basic classes needed for any degree, it is actually one of those degrees that shows an employer that you did actually do a considerable amount to obtain it. Anyone can go to a class and sit through lectures and get a degree that route, but not everyone can make it through military training and then carry that through to a degree.

I feel that the CCAF is not something that you should consider a stopping point in education, but a stepping stone to that next level. I think the logic the Air Force had by providing TA and the CCAF Associates was a way to not only recruit, but also to give a little motivation to someone who otherwise would have never gone to college and would have left the military after 4 years with nothing but a piece of paper.

imported_DannyJ
02-10-2013, 05:47 AM
I'm not sure on the numbers (cost of TA), but if we're cutting people, we should be cutting BS programs like TA and every dollar helps. We've got record retention and everyone knows that was the original point of TA (to help retention). Transfer of 9/11 education benefits should be on the block too. You know why? CAUSE YOU'RE STILL GETTING A PAYCHECK (which is a lot more than MANY people can say), not to mention all the other benefits like free health care.

As a supervisor; I could give exactly 3.14 f*cks if you can do algebra real good if you can't do the job the USG is paying you to do. Keep your education until you're out.

Other shit that should go before we cut even 1 body:
Tops in Blue
Thunder Birds
Enlisted Aides
A&FRC NCOIC Slots
Most of Services slots (they could pay a GS-3 to do most of that shit)
Staff Cars
Free CLEPS and DANTES
Retarded Dec and EPR processes
AMONG DAMN NEAR EVERYTHING ELSE THAT ISN'T DIRECTLY TIEABLE TO AIRPOWER.

71Fish
02-10-2013, 06:30 AM
I'm not sure on the numbers (cost of TA), but if we're cutting people, we should be cutting BS programs like TA and every dollar helps. We've got record retention and everyone knows that was the original point of TA (to help retention). Transfer of 9/11 education benefits should be on the block too. You know why? CAUSE YOU'RE STILL GETTING A PAYCHECK (which is a lot more than MANY people can say), not to mention all the other benefits like free health care.

As a supervisor; I could give exactly 3.14 f*cks if you can do algebra real good if you can't do the job the USG is paying you to do. Keep your education until you're out.

Other shit that should go before we cut even 1 body:
Tops in Blue
Thunder Birds
Enlisted Aides
A&FRC NCOIC Slots
Most of Services slots (they could pay a GS-3 to do most of that shit)
Staff Cars
Free CLEPS and DANTES
Retarded Dec and EPR processes
AMONG DAMN NEAR EVERYTHING ELSE THAT ISN'T DIRECTLY TIEABLE TO AIRPOWER.

You must have a real group of motivated misfits working for you.
Reality check, if you are anything in real life like this post indicates, you are the type of supervisor that causes (good) people to leave the AF.

imported_DannyJ
02-10-2013, 06:51 AM
You must have a real group of motivated misfits working for you.
Reality check, if you are anything in real life like this post indicates, you are the type of supervisor that causes (good) people to leave the AF.

I'm not understanding how you're connecting one to the other...

Because I believe in trimming fat before cutting people I'm a supervisor that make people want to seperate? GREAT LOGIC. I'm suggesting we do everything possible to KEEP the right people. That said, I do believe that we can afford to get rid of people using the USG rather than serving it.

Ok, here's the numbers 90,100 enlisted or so currently using TA. In 2007 it cost the AF $164M. That's six years ago. I'm willing to bet it's gone up since then. Conservatively, we could fund an additional 1K Amn with that alone. That's only TA! How many people could we keep, weapons system be funded, etc if we got rid of programs like this?

grimreaper
02-10-2013, 07:35 AM
I'm not understanding how you're connecting one to the other...

Because I believe in trimming fat before cutting people I'm a supervisor that make people want to seperate? GREAT LOGIC. I'm suggesting we do everything possible to KEEP the right people. That said, I do believe that we can afford to get rid of people using the USG rather than serving it.

Ok, here's the numbers 90,100 enlisted or so currently using TA. In 2007 it cost the AF $164M. That's six years ago. I'm willing to bet it's gone up since then. Conservatively, we could fund an additional 1K Amn with that alone. That's only TA! How many people could we keep, weapons system be funded, etc if we got rid of programs like this?

WE, as in the AF, don't get to decide to keep more people. Congress decides our end strength and then the AF does what it has to do to get to that number or get stuck having to pay for everything over what Congress says we should have. Just because we save some money here and there doesn't mean we are not still going to cut people. We have ended one war, are winding down another, and are living under a Democratic Administration. Democrats smell blood in the water and see this as a perfect opportunity to chop the DoD.

Troop levels are coming down no matter what we do. Cutting TA, which is a drop in the bucket, would not even be a factor.

The only people that may get forced out are people that we probably shouldn't be keeping anyway.

And as far as weapon systems go, overpriced, over budget, unnecessary weapon systems are what do need to go. That's where the real money is at and is where it is wasted.

Quixotic
02-10-2013, 08:30 AM
Ok, here's the numbers 90,100 enlisted or so currently using TA. In 2007 it cost the AF $164M. That's six years ago. I'm willing to bet it's gone up since then. Conservatively, we could fund an additional 1K Amn with that alone. That's only TA! How many people could we keep, weapons system be funded, etc if we got rid of programs like this?

$164M? That's our weekly fuel bill.

So, you consider 90K plus enlisted airmen taking the initiative to better themselves by beginning, and attaining, higher educational goals a bad investment for the AF?




And as far as weapon systems go, overpriced, over budget, unnecessary weapon systems are what do need to go. That's where the real money is at and is where it is wasted.

Amen.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-10-2013, 10:28 AM
I'm not understanding how you're connecting one to the other...

Because I believe in trimming fat before cutting people I'm a supervisor that make people want to seperate? GREAT LOGIC. I'm suggesting we do everything possible to KEEP the right people. That said, I do believe that we can afford to get rid of people using the USG rather than serving it.

Ok, here's the numbers 90,100 enlisted or so currently using TA. In 2007 it cost the AF $164M. That's six years ago. I'm willing to bet it's gone up since then. Conservatively, we could fund an additional 1K Amn with that alone. That's only TA! How many people could we keep, weapons system be funded, etc if we got rid of programs like this?

How do you feel about cutting fat people? Is that ok?

Absinthe Anecdote
02-10-2013, 10:28 AM
I'm not understanding how you're connecting one to the other...

Because I believe in trimming fat before cutting people I'm a supervisor that make people want to seperate? GREAT LOGIC. I'm suggesting we do everything possible to KEEP the right people. That said, I do believe that we can afford to get rid of people using the USG rather than serving it.

Ok, here's the numbers 90,100 enlisted or so currently using TA. In 2007 it cost the AF $164M. That's six years ago. I'm willing to bet it's gone up since then. Conservatively, we could fund an additional 1K Amn with that alone. That's only TA! How many people could we keep, weapons system be funded, etc if we got rid of programs like this?

How do you feel about cutting fat people? Is that ok?

imported_DannyJ
02-10-2013, 10:54 AM
How do you feel about cutting fat people? Is that ok?

Yes. Cutting FAT people is good. PT standards are pretty easy anyway. They aren't right, but easy enough to comply with.

-break-

Congress actually only gives us a MAXIMUM, the AF has decided to go less than that, 99% due to funding.

Better yourself on your own dime. That's what I'm saying. Why should you be able to double dip TA and the 9/11 bill? We get paid enough to do it ourselves if we didn't want to use the 9/11 bill anyway. And yes, TA is a bad investment. 90% of that money goes to mickey mouse schools like UMUC and Pheonix. Say what you want, those are not "good" schools. Those are schools that the military and the schools themselves tell you are good, not civilian employers.

As far as the weapons systems point; that whole system is beyond broke, and I get that. If we could fix that with a single decision, like what could be done by ending TA, we'd have done it already. Sadly, it's not going to be an easy fix.

TA isn't the only thing I advocate cutting, just in case you didn't catch onto that. Find me $164M else where in the budget that doesn't affect readiness and then talk.

imported_KnuckleDragger
02-10-2013, 11:03 AM
They could cut TA. It won't affect the meat of the budget. I plan on using TA to get my B.S. before it's gone. I try to stress the same to my peers.

imported_DannyJ
02-10-2013, 11:05 AM
The only people that may get forced out are people that we probably shouldn't be keeping anyway.

Too bad we can't get rid of the people that should go. Remember, the first thing they look at is AFSC, not your record. A lot of it comes down to timing; date of seperation, date of enlistment, etc.

Also say the above when you don't get a CJR and because of cuts and record retention there aren't any slots to cross train into (BTW I do not fall into that category). Shit, SF is overmanned right now. We are losing people we SHOULD keep from cuts like this.

Robert F. Dorr
02-10-2013, 11:52 AM
Too bad we can't get rid of the people that should go. Remember, the first thing they look at is AFSC, not your record. A lot of it comes down to timing; date of seperation, date of enlistment, etc.

Also say the above when you don't get a CJR and because of cuts and record retention there aren't any slots to cross train into (BTW I do not fall into that category). Shit, SF is overmanned right now. We are losing people we SHOULD keep from cuts like this.

Remember, there is "a rat" in separation.

KellyinAvon
02-10-2013, 12:27 PM
Remember, there is "a rat" in separation.

There is no "I" in team, but there is in "retired" and "Blue-ID Mafia". Where ya goin with this Bob?

JD2780
02-10-2013, 01:03 PM
Why do you people hate education?

Its not so much we hate education, but if I have a bachelors in homeland security but not my CCAF apparently I'm not dedicated to my AFSC. Its a stupid requirement.

Completed ALS, NCOA, classroom instructor, and instructed for 4 yrs but dont have speech credit. A CCAF doesnt show added knowledge of your AFSC.

CrustySMSgt
02-10-2013, 01:15 PM
WE, as in the AF, don't get to decide to keep more people. Congress decides our end strength and then the AF does what it has to do to get to that number or get stuck having to pay for everything over what Congress says we should have. Just because we save some money here and there doesn't mean we are not still going to cut people. We have ended one war, are winding down another, and are living under a Democratic Administration. Democrats smell blood in the water and see this as a perfect opportunity to chop the DoD.

Troop levels are coming down no matter what we do. Cutting TA, which is a drop in the bucket, would not even be a factor.

The only people that may get forced out are people that we probably shouldn't be keeping anyway.

And as far as weapon systems go, overpriced, over budget, unnecessary weapon systems are what do need to go. That's where the real money is at and is where it is wasted.

Congress IS the problem. They mandate cuts, but of course not a single one of them will approve that cut coming from their districts... so we end up cutting the only thing we have control over, people. If we didn't have to get approval to streamline the AF, things would be vastly different. As long as Congress holds our leash and tells us what's best for us, this is a hole we'll never get out of.



Yes. Cutting FAT people is good. PT standards are pretty easy anyway. They aren't right, but easy enough to comply with.

-break-

Congress actually only gives us a MAXIMUM, the AF has decided to go less than that, 99% due to funding.

Better yourself on your own dime. That's what I'm saying. Why should you be able to double dip TA and the 9/11 bill? We get paid enough to do it ourselves if we didn't want to use the 9/11 bill anyway. And yes, TA is a bad investment. 90% of that money goes to mickey mouse schools like UMUC and Pheonix. Say what you want, those are not "good" schools. Those are schools that the military and the schools themselves tell you are good, not civilian employers.

As far as the weapons systems point; that whole system is beyond broke, and I get that. If we could fix that with a single decision, like what could be done by ending TA, we'd have done it already. Sadly, it's not going to be an easy fix.

TA isn't the only thing I advocate cutting, just in case you didn't catch onto that. Find me $164M else where in the budget that doesn't affect readiness and then talk.

Education has always been one of the thigns that draw people to the military. I'll give you the GI Bill is a HUGE benefit (and expense) that will not last for long; once we pull out of Afghanistan and the bean counters find it politically tenable, it'll be gone. Now while times are tough on the outside, they could probably cut TA and not see a significant impact to recruiting/retainability... but when things get better on the outside, it will make a difference.

Can't remember what year it changed, but when I came in, we only got 75% and it didn't keep people from joining or staying, so I could see accepting a reduction, but I don't think it'll ever be done away with.

KellyinAvon
02-10-2013, 01:25 PM
Congress IS the problem. They mandate cuts, but of course not a single one of them will approve that cut coming from their districts... so we end up cutting the only thing we have control over, people. If we didn't have to get approval to streamline the AF, things would be vastly different. As long as Congress holds our leash and tells us what's best for us, this is a hole we'll never get out of.




Education has always been one of the thigns that draw people to the military. I'll give you the GI Bill is a HUGE benefit (and expense) that will not last for long; once we pull out of Afghanistan and the bean counters find it politically tenable, it'll be gone. Now while times are tough on the outside, they could probably cut TA and not see a significant impact to recruiting/retainability... but when things get better on the outside, it will make a difference.

Can't remember what year it changed, but when I came in, we only got 75% and it didn't keep people from joining or staying, so I could see accepting a reduction, but I don't think it'll ever be done away with.

It went to 100% around 2002 if memory serves. We (not just the AF) were coming off not making recruitment and retention numbers in the late-90s. The 50% retirement option for the REDUX retirees was offered around that time too. Accordian effect?

imported_KnuckleDragger
02-10-2013, 01:35 PM
Its not so much we hate education, but if I have a bachelors in homeland security but not my CCAF apparently I'm not dedicated to my AFSC. Its a stupid requirement.

Completed ALS, NCOA, classroom instructor, and instructed for 4 yrs but dont have speech credit. A CCAF doesnt show added knowledge of your AFSC.

They let you instruct that long without a CCAF?

Absinthe Anecdote
02-10-2013, 02:07 PM
Actually I have heard from a few people that have separated that the CCAF actually does give them a slight advantage in the job market, but only a very small advantage. That combined with a Honorable discharge shows a company that not only did you serve your country faithfully but it also shows that you were willing to self improve while you were doing it.

Also the classes I took for my CCAF also applied towards my bachelors so it was taking a few classes to achieve two different goals.

You are 100% right!

However, if you want to maximize this slight advantage then it is crucial for you to win the Command Chief Master Sergeants moral coin for having the highest GPA in your CCAF graduating class.

This is like graduating 'summa cum laude' or 'magna cum laude' from a regular university and employers will know exactly what you are talking about if you put it on your resume.

Now, CCAF doesn’t have a fraternity system (so don’t put this on your resume) but if you have the opportunity to work this into a conversation during an interview, mention that you were a member of Lambda Lambda Lambda (Tri-Lambs).

Then fondly reminisce about toga parties and the time you and the guys took your brother’s Lincoln Continental on a road trip and thoroughly trashed the car and then had to report it stolen to collect the insurance money.

You will definitely stand out amongst the other applicants if you do this.

sandsjames
02-10-2013, 02:47 PM
Why is it that every time someone mentions cutting something, there's always someone else to come along to say it's pointless because it's only a drop in the bucket? Do you not realize that all these "drops" are what causes the bucket to overflow? Nobody is saying that cutting TA would help with the budget. However, cutting TA and the 200 other money sucking programs would.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-10-2013, 03:14 PM
Why is it that every time someone mentions cutting something, there's always someone else to come along to say it's pointless because it's only a drop in the bucket? Do you not realize that all these "drops" are what causes the bucket to overflow? Nobody is saying that cutting TA would help with the budget. However, cutting TA and the 200 other money sucking programs would.

Ugh, because it is a form of subterfuge?

Don’t cut this program that I like, it is inexpensive, a mere drop in the bucket. Go cut something else!

If that doesn’t work the Oliver Twist method is often employed next. You know, tug on their heart strings a little, sad dirty but lovable face and a defeated plea for mercy. “May I have some more, Sir?”

sandsjames
02-10-2013, 03:24 PM
Ugh, because it is a form of subterfuge?

Don’t cut this program that I like, it is inexpensive, a mere drop in the bucket. Go cut something else!

If that doesn’t work the Oliver Twist method is often employed next. You know, tug on their heart strings a little, sad dirty but lovable face and a defeated plea for mercy. “May I have some more, Sir?”

Cut it all. Everything other than maintaining the aircraft the infrastructure/manning to support those aircraft and the bases they are on. Get rid of ALL the extras. Everything, no matter who it affects, if it doesn't directly support the mission.

This is the same problem we have with all spending in the government. Everyone has their own little pet they think needs to stay around. Because of this, we keep spending more that we are making. I'm no economics major, but when you spend more than you have, I'm going to assume it's not a good thing.

We have the GI Bill. If you want to get an "education" while in the military, it's paid for. It's not the responsibility of the military to allow you to get that education and still leave you with your entire GI Bill after you get out. I don't get the logic at all.

If I am having trouble paying my bills, I'm going to have to cut stuff. I could arguing that my going to the movies once a month is only a drop in the bucket to my overall spending. $30 a month doesn't really add up to much. But when I put that together with cutting down my cable package, turning the lights off when I leave a room, turning the temp down on the water heater, and buying more bulk foods when I grocery shop, those things equal a pretty good overall cut in spending.

Absinthe Anecdote
02-10-2013, 04:17 PM
Cut it all. Everything other than maintaining the aircraft the infrastructure/manning to support those aircraft and the bases they are on. Get rid of ALL the extras. Everything, no matter who it affects, if it doesn't directly support the mission.

This is the same problem we have with all spending in the government. Everyone has their own little pet they think needs to stay around. Because of this, we keep spending more that we are making. I'm no economics major, but when you spend more than you have, I'm going to assume it's not a good thing.

We have the GI Bill. If you want to get an "education" while in the military, it's paid for. It's not the responsibility of the military to allow you to get that education and still leave you with your entire GI Bill after you get out. I don't get the logic at all.

If I am having trouble paying my bills, I'm going to have to cut stuff. I could arguing that my going to the movies once a month is only a drop in the bucket to my overall spending. $30 a month doesn't really add up to much. But when I put that together with cutting down my cable package, turning the lights off when I leave a room, turning the temp down on the water heater, and buying more bulk foods when I grocery shop, those things equal a pretty good overall cut in spending.

The Connie Mack Penny Plan?

Check it out...

Rainmaker
02-10-2013, 04:32 PM
Cut it all. Everything other than maintaining the aircraft the infrastructure/manning to support those aircraft and the bases they are on. Get rid of ALL the extras. Everything, no matter who it affects, if it doesn't directly support the mission.

This is the same problem we have with all spending in the government. Everyone has their own little pet they think needs to stay around. Because of this, we keep spending more that we are making. I'm no economics major, but when you spend more than you have, I'm going to assume it's not a good thing.

We have the GI Bill. If you want to get an "education" while in the military, it's paid for. It's not the responsibility of the military to allow you to get that education and still leave you with your entire GI Bill after you get out. I don't get the logic at all.

If I am having trouble paying my bills, I'm going to have to cut stuff. I could arguing that my going to the movies once a month is only a drop in the bucket to my overall spending. $30 a month doesn't really add up to much. But when I put that together with cutting down my cable package, turning the lights off when I leave a room, turning the temp down on the water heater, and buying more bulk foods when I grocery shop, those things equal a pretty good overall cut in spending.

The logic is this. It is the military's responsibility to recruit the force the country needs. So long as the overwhelming majority of the citizens in the country want to shirk the responsibility to serve, then the military has to offer up competitive salaries and benefits to attract personnel. In order to get people to deploy multiple times to combat zones the evil post 9-11 GI bill was created. Don't worry. Most likely, it will soon be going away. Most fortune 500 companies and pretty much all major Defense contractors offer 100% tuition reimbursement to their professional employees.

Rainmaker
02-10-2013, 04:50 PM
Lets get rid of the dorms and have the troops sleep in tents. We could cut costs and it would build character. If you want to sleep in an actual dorm, the GI bill will pay for that after you get out.

Rainmaker
02-10-2013, 05:07 PM
The Connie Mack Penny Plan?

Check it out...

Sounds pretty good. But, Rainmaker never trusts plans from 4th Generation politicians that are closely connected to Multi-Billion dollar hedge fund managers to reduce the "debt".

Robert F. Dorr
02-10-2013, 05:13 PM
The logic is this. It is the military's responsibility to recruit the force the country needs. So long as the overwhelming majority of the citizens in the country want to shirk the responsibility to serve, then the military has to offer up competitive salaries and benefits to attract personnel. In order to get people to deploy multiple times to combat zones the evil post 9-11 GI bill was created. Don't worry. Most likely, it will soon be going away. Most fortune 500 companies and pretty much all major Defense contractors offer 100% tuition reimbursement to their professional employees.

Citizens aren't shirking the responsibility to serve. They're avoiding having to send their sons or daughters to the next Vietnam. That's why they pay the big bucks to volunteer military members. The solution is to stay out of wars that don't have popular support. The comment about Fortune 500 companies would have been more accurate in 2003 than in 2013.

Rainmaker
02-10-2013, 05:30 PM
Citizens aren't shirking the responsibility to serve. They're avoiding having to send their sons or daughters to the next Vietnam. That's why they pay the big bucks to volunteer military members. The solution is to stay out of wars that don't have popular support. The comment about Fortune 500 companies would have been more accurate in 2003 than in 2013.

We live in a country of Shirks. Starting with the Congress who shirks it's responsibility to declare wars in order to avoid having to actually justify and try to win them quickly.

Quixotic
02-10-2013, 06:04 PM
Yes. Cutting FAT people is good. PT standards are pretty easy anyway. They aren't right, but easy enough to comply with.

-break-

Better yourself on your own dime. That's what I'm saying. Why should you be able to double dip TA and the 9/11 bill? We get paid enough to do it ourselves if we didn't want to use the 9/11 bill anyway. And yes, TA is a bad investment. 90% of that money goes to mickey mouse schools like UMUC and Pheonix. Say what you want, those are not "good" schools. Those are schools that the military and the schools themselves tell you are good, not civilian employers.

As far as the weapons systems point; that whole system is beyond broke, and I get that. If we could fix that with a single decision, like what could be done by ending TA, we'd have done it already. Sadly, it's not going to be an easy fix.

TA isn't the only thing I advocate cutting, just in case you didn't catch onto that. Find me $164M else where in the budget that doesn't affect readiness and then talk.


Why are you arguing against TA and not the G.I. Bill then? Why not cut both? So we can truly "better ourselves on our own dime?"

Please define exactly what a Mickey Mouse school is? And I'm dying to know what your qualifications for designating one school 'good' and another 'not good' are.

So because it's easier to cut benefits instead of gazillion dollar weapons systems, we should cut benefits? Seriously!?!?

"TA Isn't the only thing I advocate cutting, just in case you didn't catch onto that." Oh please do go on!

"Find me $164M else where in the budget that doesn't affect readiness and then talk." How about those gazillion dollar weapon systems that we don't need?

VFFTSGT
02-10-2013, 06:40 PM
So, with all the impending craziness of budgetary cuts and what it entails, why hasn't TA been cut? Seriously, we have the GI/Post 9/11 Bill to pay for school once we're out, and we have less and less people on active duty, not to mention how ridiculous it is for people to take time away from work for school...

Why hasn't the shit been cut? :smash

Things the government should cut before cutting services, entitlements, benefits, etc of military personnel....

1. Foreign aid
2. The excessive Presidential Travel of all Presidents.
3. Congressional and Executive pay, staff, and expense accounts
4. Several government agencies such as ATF (could be handled by FBI - ATF's original purpose went obsolete decades ago) and many others... Just another government program with a life span of eternity
5. Defense contractors - because the military routinely pays 3,000 times what anything is actually worth - just paid $10,000 for an obsolete touchscreen the other day.
6. Wasteful TDY's such as Silver Flag and PME (Dressing up in my blues, reciting the creed, and marching does nothing)
7. Excessive routine/training flying
8. Long Term/Excessive Welfare
9. Bases stop leaving every light on (interior and exterior) - my base routinely looks brighter than New York City and it's way smaller and nothing going on
10. Desks and computers for every Airman
11. The overly burdensome and time consuming 937,481 information systems (DTS, ETIMS, ALDS, etc) the Air Force has and makes us use
12. Blackberries and other government issued cell phones
13. Flat screen TV's
14. Cable services
15. ....

JD2780
02-10-2013, 06:48 PM
They let you instruct that long without a CCAF?

I didnt go to NCOA, just ALS. I had to get out before I got to sew on. The majority of guys in the squadron I was teaching at didnt have their CCAF, and had been through NCOA. It was an ACC school. It wasnt a requirement. I had 3 guys that had bachelors in different fields, but were far beyond many of the folks with CCAFs when it came to job knowledge. Its a trivial piece of paper.

akruse
02-10-2013, 08:55 PM
Things the government should cut before cutting services, entitlements, benefits, etc of military personnel....


7. Excessive routine/training flying

15. ....

No doubt in my mind that that went away many years ago. Our squadron can barely maintain CMR status. A great majority of our pilots are on par with NK and their amount of training hours.

imported_DannyJ
02-10-2013, 10:48 PM
Why are you arguing against TA and not the G.I. Bill then? Why not cut both? So we can truly "better ourselves on our own dime?"

I'm arguing against TA because we DO have the GI bill. I'd like to say, better yourself on your own dime, until you get out. I believe the education focus of the AF is all out of whack (particularly with the enlisted side); cutting TA would lessen that and save some money. We just don't need it anymore.


Please define exactly what a Mickey Mouse school is? And I'm dying to know what your qualifications for designating one school 'good' and another 'not good' are.

Qualifications of non-mickey mouse school...I'm pretty lazy on research for this kind of shit, but suffice it to say, if the school isn't at least 50 years old and in-residence... Just a quick and dirty. It's also a bit like when you fart and aren't sure if you shart yourself. If you have to check, bingo.


So because it's easier to cut benefits instead of gazillion dollar weapons systems, we should cut benefits? Seriously!?!?

Yes, seriously. Trim the easiest, lowest net gain items first.


"Find me $164M else where in the budget that doesn't affect readiness and then talk." How about those gazillion dollar weapon systems that we don't need?

You MUST be in the wrong job if you can make that determination for the whole of the DoD!

Btw, how many zero's in a gazillion?

omertalifestyle
02-11-2013, 01:27 AM
I'm arguing against TA because we DO have the GI bill. I'd like to say, better yourself on your own dime, until you get out. I believe the education focus of the AF is all out of whack (particularly with the enlisted side); cutting TA would lessen that and save some money. We just don't need it anymore.



Qualifications of non-mickey mouse school...I'm pretty lazy on research for this kind of shit, but suffice it to say, if the school isn't at least 50 years old and in-residence... Just a quick and dirty. It's also a bit like when you fart and aren't sure if you shart yourself. If you have to check, bingo.



Yes, seriously. Trim the easiest, lowest net gain items first.



You MUST be in the wrong job if you can make that determination for the whole of the DoD!

Btw, how many zero's in a gazillion?

Sure lets cut benefits to the military, the money still won't go unspent, it will probably go to fund welfare for illegal immigrants.....great idea you had.

Quixotic
02-11-2013, 02:29 AM
I'm arguing against TA because we DO have the GI bill. I'd like to say, better yourself on your own dime, until you get out. I believe the education focus of the AF is all out of whack (particularly with the enlisted side); cutting TA would lessen that and save some money. We just don't need it anymore.

What you mean to say is YOU don't need it anymore. I'm guessing the other 90K plus that use TA, which you referenced earlier, probably have a different take on that.


Qualifications of non-mickey mouse school...I'm pretty lazy on research for this kind of shit, but suffice it to say, if the school isn't at least 50 years old and in-residence... Just a quick and dirty. It's also a bit like when you fart and aren't sure if you shart yourself. If you have to check, bingo.

You're lazy on research? Agreed.
I guess accreditation, among other things, is meaningless?


Yes, seriously. Trim the easiest, lowest net gain items first.

That's right, as long as it looks like we're trying to solve the problem, by taking out the easy low hanging fruit that will gain nothing, who cares if the problem is really being solved in any significant and meaningful way right?


You MUST be in the wrong job if you can make that determination for the whole of the DoD!

Yes, the utter hypocrisy of this remark, given that my statement you are referencing was followed by a question mark, and given your recent declarations about TA for the rest of us, won't be lost on myself or anyone else reading this.

Look around, I'm not the only one saying it. Sorry, but cutting TA (or any other such benefit on that fiscal level) is not going to make the slightest difference in our current budgetary situation. Expensive, gazillion dollar weapon systems that counter no realistic threat today, or in the foreseeable future, is where effective, realistic choices need to be made.


Btw, how many zero's in a gazillion?
Research it.

PT GOD
02-11-2013, 04:29 AM
It appears Congress gots'ta snatchn dis into deir own hands by addin' an amendment t'de Defense Audo'izashun Act uh 2012 (HR 1540) dat would direct da damn DoD t'repo't on de effects uh reducin' de current 100 tuishun and fees rate by 25. Currently servicemembers kin git down t'100 uh de tuishun and fees covered as long as de puh' semesta' credit limit uh $250 be not 'seeded. Anydin' tuishun costs which 'seed da damn puh' credit hour cap must be paid drough secondary sources likes deir GI Bill benefit, scholarships, grants o' out-of-pocket. If passed by Congress all servicemembers, no matta' which branch, may soon gots'ta rely on secondary fundin' sources t'help cova' deir tuishun and fees. De language uh de amendment, offered by Rep. Mike Coffman (R-CO), duz not direct DoD t'immediately cut da damn rates, however, it duz call fo' de Defense Secretary t'examine da damn possible effects uh a cut. In addishun, de amendment directs DoD t'look fo' inefficiencies and ddownlicashuns uh benefits - i. Ya' know?e. What it is, Mama! servicemember’s ability t'use da damn GI Bill while on active duty.

imported_DannyJ
02-11-2013, 05:12 AM
What you mean to say is YOU don't need it anymore. I'm guessing the other 90K plus that use TA, which you referenced earlier, probably have a different take on that.

You're lazy on research? Agreed.
I guess accreditation, among other things, is meaningless?

That's right, as long as it looks like we're trying to solve the problem, by taking out the easy low hanging fruit that will gain nothing, who cares if the problem is really being solved in any significant and meaningful way right?

Yes, the utter hypocrisy of this remark, given that my statement you are referencing was followed by a question mark, and given your recent declarations about TA for the rest of us, won't be lost on myself or anyone else reading this.

Look around, I'm not the only one saying it. Sorry, but cutting TA (or any other such benefit on that fiscal level) is not going to make the slightest difference in our current budgetary situation. Expensive, gazillion dollar weapon systems that counter no realistic threat today, or in the foreseeable future, is where effective, realistic choices need to be made.
Research it. (Well isn't this the iron calling the kettle black!?)

Listen, no one NEEDS TA and you are taking this shit WAAAY too seriously, not to mention the blatant entitlement issues. I can still use TA. I choose not to. That's what it comes down to. Accreditation, for schools is kinda like when KIA offered 10 year warranted on their cars back in the early 00s. Didn't make the cars any less pieces of shit, just warranted pieces of shit.

In the end, justify to yourself what you need to. Ain't gonna change my position.

Quixotic
02-11-2013, 05:49 AM
Listen, no one NEEDS TA and you are taking this shit WAAAY too seriously, not to mention the blatant entitlement issues. I can still use TA. I choose not to. That's what it comes down to. Accreditation, for schools is kinda like when KIA offered 10 year warranted on their cars back in the early 00s. Didn't make the cars any less pieces of shit, just warranted pieces of shit.

In the end, justify to yourself what you need to. Ain't gonna change my position.

No, you haven't changed your position, but you continuously change your reasoning. In fact, let me refresh your memory on your original reasoning, here it is.


So, with all the impending craziness of budgetary cuts and what it entails, why hasn't TA been cut? Seriously, we have the GI/Post 9/11 Bill to pay for school once we're out, and we have less and less people on active duty, not to mention how ridiculous it is for people to take time away from work for school...

Why hasn't the shit been cut? :smash

You went from the budget, less people on active duty, and time away from work to comparing accreditation of so called Mickey Mouse schools with a Kia warranty as your reasoning for ending TA. You have yet to stand your ground and back up anything you've said.

So, there's this financial aid program the military has to benefit service members who are interested in self development in order to attain not only higher critical thinking skills, but a higher education level in general, by attending college classes off duty. It's called Tuition Assistance. I think someone like you could benefit from this program. If you would like more info, I can send you a link?

PS; My "research it" comment was sarcasm. Next time I will include smiley faces to help you more adequately comprehend my humor. Furthermore, it's the pot that calls the kettle black, not the iron.

CJSmith
02-11-2013, 07:22 AM
Yet less than 1% of the enlisted side (at least) have a Master's degree. And I believe it's under 20% have a Bachelor's.


I don't know how to find out but I would have guessed that in the Air Force the percentage of enlisted members with a bachelor's degree would be much higher (although I hope they don't award one to anybody who puts two spaces between sentences).

21.13% have an Associates (55,993)
6.8% have a Bachelors (18,013)
1.17% have a Masters (3,116)
0.006% have a PHD (18)
0.0018% have a professional degree (5)
This of course does not count those that did not submit their degrees to the education office.
Source: https://www.thrmis.hq.af.mil/ as of 31 Jan 13

(who the hell are these 23 people that have PHD or higher and are still enlisted?)



Can't remember what year it changed, but when I came in, we only got 75% and it didn't keep people from joining or staying, so I could see accepting a reduction, but I don't think it'll ever be done away with.

Want to drastically cut TA use? Go back to this. The only people that will go after it are those that really want a degree to advance themselves. Others are just using it as a box filler cause it's free.

Quixotic
02-11-2013, 07:38 AM
Now that would be an interesting number to know, how many people use TA and finish what they started.

I get the impression that many start it for no other reason than it sounded like a good idea, and then loose interest and don't follow through. I did some searching for actual TA graduation rates but couldn't find anything.

But I'm with CJSmith on this one, if there's some money down on the part of the student, it'll help separate those who aren't serious from those who are.

Airman of Darkness
02-11-2013, 08:33 AM
So, there's this financial aid program the military has to benefit service members who are interested in self development in order to attain not only higher critical thinking skills, but a higher education level in general, by attending college classes off duty. It's called Tuition Assistance. I think someone like you could benefit from this program. If you would like more info, I can send you a link?

PS; My "research it" comment was sarcasm. Next time I will include smiley faces to help you more adequately comprehend my humor. Furthermore, it's the pot that calls the kettle black, not the iron.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_burn_centers_in_the_United_States

Comrade
02-11-2013, 08:37 AM
(who the hell are these 23 people that have PHD or higher and are still enlisted?)



Most of them are probably band members. Most of the guaranteed AF Band personnel enlist with at least a Bachelor's degree.

bcoco14
02-11-2013, 09:10 AM
Why is it that every time someone mentions cutting something, there's always someone else to come along to say it's pointless because it's only a drop in the bucket? Do you not realize that all these "drops" are what causes the bucket to overflow? Nobody is saying that cutting TA would help with the budget. However, cutting TA and the 200 other money sucking programs would.

Why don't we keep the TA and start with the retirement, just get rid of it.No grandfather clause either, just cut it off completely. Make the TSP mandatory. That's a bigger drop in the bucket.

If you want to modify the TA program here is my suggestion. Make TA 100% for core classes. The AF makes it mandatory to have a CCAF to make anything past MSgt, they can pay for it. You want a bachelors, 75% like the old days and no TA for a masters up. Sorry officers, but the majority of you get a free education through the academy or ROTC scholarships. If you are serious about making it a carer and need a masters you make enough to shell out a few buck to get an advanced degree. Plus, they send them to some schools that will get them a masters. Hell the Academy even PAYS them to go to school.

This will keep people from just taking classes to get an EPR bullet. Keep the CLEP/DANTES free for one try. Just because you pass a CLEP doesn't mean you will score high enough on it for it to transfer to a 4 year program.

TIB gets shut down. Thunderbirds and AF honor guard stay, they have a purpose. Band of the golden west and every other regional band gets shut down. Get rid of the AF churas too, we don't need the singing sergeants.

And while were at it lets take away everyone BAH and BAS, married and single. We can move everyone into base housing and if that's full, tent city! Everyone gets 3 MRE's a day and no more clothing allowance. Every year you can turn in your unserviceable uniforms for new issued ones. 1 for 1 swap. For health care we can have a co-pay, percriptions we farm out to the local Walgreen's. No more per Diem for TDY's. Everyone gets field conditions.

I love these "cut off your nose to spite the face" threads! The big money stuff is in the contracts. The congress men and women from those districts will never let those go so all these points a mute. Until we get people in office that are willing to sacrifice some of there voters nothing will change.

It always amazes me how quick some people are to relinquish their benefit's all in the name of trying to balance the budget.

CJSmith
02-11-2013, 09:15 AM
Why don't we keep the TA and start with the retirement, just get rid of it.No grandfather clause either, just cut it off completely. Make the TSP mandatory. That's a bigger drop in the bucket.

If you want to modify the TA program here is my suggestion. Make TA 100% for core classes. The AF makes it mandatory to have a CCAF to make anything past MSgt, they can pay for it. You want a bachelors, 75% like the old days and no TA for a masters up. Sorry officers, but the majority of you get a free education through the academy or ROTC scholarships. If you are serious about making it a carer and need a masters you make enough to shell out a few buck to get an advanced degree. Plus, they send them to some schools that will get them a masters. Hell the Academy even PAYS them to go to school.

This will keep people from just taking classes to get an EPR bullet. Keep the CLEP/DANTES free for one try. Just because you pass a CLEP doesn't mean you will score high enough on it for it to transfer to a 4 year program.

TIB gets shut down. Thunderbirds and AF honor guard stay, they have a purpose. Band of the golden west and every other regional band gets shut down. Get rid of the AF churas too, we don't need the singing sergeants.

And while were at it lets take away everyone BAH and BAS, married and single. We can move everyone into base housing and if that's full, tent city! Everyone gets 3 MRE's a day and no more clothing allowance. Every year you can turn in your unserviceable uniforms for new issued ones. 1 for 1 swap. For health care we can have a co-pay, percriptions we farm out to the local Walgreen's. No more per Diem for TDY's. Everyone gets field conditions.

I love these "cut off your nose to spite the face" threads! The big money stuff is in the contracts. The congress men and women from those districts will never let those go so all these points a mute. Until we get people in office that are willing to sacrifice some of there voters nothing will change.

It always amazes me how quick some people are to relinquish their benefit's all in the name of trying to balance the budget.

Seems to be the trend on here. Bitch and complain about something, then bitch and complain that something was taken away.

JD2780
02-11-2013, 11:42 AM
21.13% have an Associates (55,993)
6.8% have a Bachelors (18,013)
1.17% have a Masters (3,116)
0.006% have a PHD (18)
0.0018% have a professional degree (5)
This of course does not count those that did not submit their degrees to the education office.
Source: https://www.thrmis.hq.af.mil/ as of 31 Jan 13

(who the hell are these 23 people that have PHD or higher and are still enlisted?)




Want to drastically cut TA use? Go back to this. The only people that will go after it are those that really want a degree to advance themselves. Others are just using it as a box filler cause it's free.

Then you need to remove the requirement for a CCAF to get SRE.

CJSmith
02-11-2013, 12:04 PM
Then *you need to remove the requirement for a CCAF to get SRE.

*they, not me.

If I may elaborate. TA should be available for CCAF. Anything more than that it should go to 75%. Yes, you are right - it should be removed as a SRE if it's not available.

JD2780
02-11-2013, 01:28 PM
*they, not me.

If I may elaborate. TA should be available for CCAF. Anything more than that it should go to 75%. Yes, you are right - it should be removed as a SRE if it's not available.

By "you" I meant the people who run stuff. Not CJSmith.

That actually sounds like a decent deal. Even for a degree factory like AMU 75% is pretty good.

Stalwart
02-11-2013, 04:04 PM
Enlisted with undergraduate degrees:
Army: 8.1%
Navy: 3.5%
Air Force: 6.8%
Marines: 2%

Enlisted with graduate degrees:
Army: 1%
Navy: .8%
Air Force: .8%
Marines: .2%

Some other interesting facts about the current military force and education / demographics:

The quality of enlisted troops has increased since the start of the Iraq war (2003). Based on education levels, test scores, waivers for medical or criminal activity.

Members of the all-volunteer military are significantly more likely to come from high-income neighborhoods than from low-income neighborhoods. Only 11 percent of enlisted recruits in 2007 came from the poorest one-fifth of neighborhoods, while 25 percent came from the wealthiest quintile. These trends are even more pronounced in the Army Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) program, in which 40 percent of enrollees come from the wealthiest neighborhoods.

American soldiers are more educated than their peers. A little more than 1 percent of enlisted personnel lack a high school degree, compared to 21 percent of men 18-24 years old.

Contrary to conventional wisdom, minorities are not overrepresented in military service. Enlisted troops are somewhat more likely to be white or black than their non-military peers. Whites are proportionately represented in the officer corps, and blacks are overrepresented, but their rate of overrepresentation has declined each year from 2004 to 2011.

imported_Sgt HULK
02-11-2013, 04:51 PM
I love this thread and threads like these. 2 sides of the argument. the side of the folks that take full advantage of the entitlements they EARNED arguing why it is a benefit. A benefit to signing that blank check to uncle sam for your life. The other side. The folks who do not use it saying it is a waste. Or as I like to paint with a broad stroke, the lazy ones that do not take full advantage of what is provided to them ( in before I have this that and the next thing I I I I I ).

Just because you choose not or feel you do not need a degree does not mean that others will agree with you. Because you choose to work 8-10 hrs a day go home, play video games, drink beer or watch ESPN. does not mean that TA is a worthless benefit, a benefit that we have all earned by lacing up the boots every single day. Even if you are not on a one to one dwell or working 15 hrs a day, you are still in the military and the potential for you to go off and do something that 99 percent of Americans will not be called upon to do affords you this one little entitlement of education. One day you will no longer be in uniform and Uncle Sam wants to make sure you are prepped for that. If you chose not to use TA then don't, but calling it a waste because you choose not to is the same as calling every other entitlement given to us a waste because you choose not too use it. Maybe it's a waste to you because you lack discpline or insert some other excuse. But those who sacrifce family time and studying all weekend know the value of a piece of paper when it comes to securing future employment.

By the way those mickey mouse schools do not get TA unless they go through the checks and balances needed.
In the mean time I'll go back to finishing my homework. 3 more classes and my MBA will finally be done then on to PHD :D Thank you TA ;) All regionally accredited, private non profit universities ;) ( grammar nazi's spare me your reply, the i-pad blows)

sandsjames
02-11-2013, 04:55 PM
I love this thread and threads like these. 2 sides of the argument. the side of the folks that take full advantage of the entitlements they EARNED arguing why it is a benefit. A benefit to signing that blank check to uncle sam for your life. The other side. The folks who do not use it saying it is a waste. Or as I like to paint with a broad stroke, the lazy ones that do not take full advantage of what is provided to them ( in before I have this that and the next thing I I I I I ).

Just because you choose not or feel you do not need a degree does not mean that others will agree with you. Because you choose to work 8-10 hrs a day go home, play video games, drink beer or watch ESPN. does not mean that TA is a worthless benefit, a benefit that we have all earned by lacing up the boots every single day. Even if you are not on a one to one dwell or working 15 hrs a day, you are still in the military and the potential for you to go off and do something that 99 percent of Americans will not be called upon to do affords you this one little entitlement of education. One day you will no longer be in uniform and Uncle Sam wants to make sure you are prepped for that. If you chose not to use TA then don't, but calling it a waste because you choose not to is the same as calling every other entitlement given to us a waste because you choose not too use it. Maybe it's a waste to you because you lack discpline or insert some other excuse. But those who sacrifce family time and studying all weekend know the value of a piece of paper when it comes to securing future employment.

By the way those mickey mouse schools do not get TA unless they go through the checks and balances needed.
In the mean time I'll go back to finishing my homework. 3 more classes and my MBA will finally be done then on to PHD :D Thank you TA ;) All regionally accredited, private non profit universities ;) ( grammar nazi's spare me your reply, the i-pad blows)

TA is not a "worthless" benefit. However, it is in no way critical to completion of the mission which means, in the financial fiasco we are currently in, it isn't necessary.

imported_Sgt HULK
02-11-2013, 05:02 PM
SO you're saying mission first people last? No need to take care of those taking care of you?

I whole heartedly agree, tops in blues, F-22 air shows, staff cars, end of year spending, band, rifle demo teams, show glitz and glam shit can get cut.

may as well cut everything that doesnt have to do with bombs on target, eventually there will be no one to put them bombs on target

Igloowhite
02-11-2013, 05:45 PM
One day you will no longer be in uniform and Uncle Sam wants to make sure you are prepped for that. If you chose not to use TA then don't, but calling it a waste because you choose not to is the same as calling every other entitlement given to us a waste because you choose not too use it. This is one among the many reasons the original Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944 was created and should still continue to be funded.

sandsjames
02-11-2013, 06:05 PM
SO you're saying mission first people last? No need to take care of those taking care of you?

I whole heartedly agree, tops in blues, F-22 air shows, staff cars, end of year spending, band, rifle demo teams, show glitz and glam shit can get cut.

may as well cut everything that doesnt have to do with bombs on target, eventually there will be no one to put them bombs on target

They HAVE the GI Bill. Every single member, for free. By taking away TA, the military is doing absolutely nothing to hurt ones chances to get an "education" (and I use that term very loosely). All it's doing is not having the taxpayer pay for the education of a military member's children.

JD2780
02-11-2013, 06:13 PM
Uncle Sam doesnt give to shits about you.

Sergeant eNYgma
02-11-2013, 06:16 PM
Citizens aren't shirking the responsibility to serve. They're avoiding having to send their sons or daughters to the next Vietnam. That's why they pay the big bucks to volunteer military members. The solution is to stay out of wars that don't have popular support. The comment about Fortune 500 companies would have been more accurate in 2003 than in 2013.

BOTH are going on.

Grammar Police
02-11-2013, 07:38 PM
Uncle Sam doesnt give to shits about you.

No wonder you want to cut TA. English is too hard for you.

garhkal
02-11-2013, 10:00 PM
I'm arguing against TA because we DO have the GI bill. I'd like to say, better yourself on your own dime, until you get out. I believe the education focus of the AF is all out of whack (particularly with the enlisted side); cutting TA would lessen that and save some money. We just don't need it anymore.

And at least when i joined up, you paid INTO the GI BILL to receive it.


They HAVE the GI Bill. Every single member, for free. By taking away TA, the military is doing absolutely nothing to hurt ones chances to get an "education" (and I use that term very loosely). All it's doing is not having the taxpayer pay for the education of a military member's children.

Too true.. plus with the current GI bill you can opt to give it to your kids/spouses.

imported_DannyJ
02-12-2013, 05:20 AM
And at least when i joined up, you paid INTO the GI BILL to receive it.



Too true.. plus with the current GI bill you can opt to give it to your kids/spouses.

I paid the $1200 too man. I'm also not one of the guys crying to get it back either.

bcoco14
02-12-2013, 05:26 AM
I paid the $1200 too man. I'm also not one of the guys crying to get it back either.

You can get it back, but that would require you to go to school.

imported_DannyJ
02-12-2013, 05:33 AM
You can get it back, but that would require you to go to school.

I'm done with school. I did my time. Got 2 degrees. If I did want my Master's? 9/11 bill AFTER I get out.

Quixotic
02-12-2013, 07:28 AM
I'm done with school. I did my time. Got 2 degrees. If I did want my Master's? 9/11 bill AFTER I get out.

Oh, so you "Got 2 degrees" already, now your previous comments against TA make a little more sense.

Let me see if I have this right, you never used TA to get those two degrees, only the G.I. Bill, right? All while on active duty right?

imported_Sgt HULK
02-12-2013, 01:03 PM
Wait you got 2 degrees? That means while you were off going to school someone else was at work carrying the weight of your absence

:D swidt

JD2780
02-12-2013, 01:18 PM
No wonder you want to cut TA. English is too hard for you.

Fat fingers. Doesn't give two shits. My bad GP.

I'm not 100% for cutting TA. I used it. I'm for cutting the CCAF requirement for SRE endorsement.

JD2780
02-12-2013, 01:19 PM
Wait you got 2 degrees? That means while you were off going to school someone else was at work carrying the weight of your absence

:D swidt

He also go NCO of the year for his volunteer work, education, and scoring 90 or above on PT test. Accomplishing no work.

Robert F. Dorr
03-13-2013, 01:57 AM
No wonder you want to cut TA. English is too hard for you.

Come back, Grammar Police, wherever you are.

cloudFFVII
03-13-2013, 03:40 AM
Wasn't it just like 2 weeks ago Chief Cody was saying Education and Training was his #1 priority?

Talk about a baptism by fire that money trumps all goals :)

If this isn't a signal to remove the ridiculous requirement to have a CCAF for SRE, nothing will be. If the AF was really serious, they'd make a Bachelors mandatory to E-7 and a Masters mandatory to E-8. Those actually make a difference in the real world in getting a decent job.

bcoco14
03-13-2013, 04:56 AM
If this isn't a signal to remove the ridiculous requirement to have a CCAF for SRE, nothing will be.

Chief Cody said in his e-mail that the CCAF requirement for promotion will remain in place. You just have to do it out of your own pocket now.

bcoco14
03-13-2013, 05:12 AM
can someone post said cmsaf email?
Here you go.

Fellow Airmen,


As you know, our Nation and our Air Force are working through some significant fiscal challenges. The combined effects of continuing resolution and sequestration are forcing some very tough decisions. Unfortunately we'll likely be forced to furlough nearly 180,000 civilian Airmen for 16 hours per pay period for the remainder of the fiscal year starting in April. This is one of many impacts on your units and our Airmen and Families. Given this environment we've had to make the decision to suspend military Tuition Assistance (TA) for the remainder of this fiscal year.

Effective 1700 EST, 11 March, Active Duty Airmen will no longer be able to submit requests for Tuition Assistance.

Believe me, this was a tough decision because our Air Force truly values education. This is evidenced by our requirement for a Community College of the Air Force (CCAF) degree for senior rater endorsement (SRE) eligibility. SRE means a great deal in the promotion of Master Sergeant to Senior Master Sergeant, and this will not change. We understand suspension of TA benefits makes things tougher, but there are other ways for Airmen to complete CCAF degrees. CLEP exams, the G.I. Bill, scholarships, and federal grants are some options.

We remain as committed as ever to ensuring Airmen have the opportunity and means to pursue educational goals. We're still looking at the impacts for FY14 and will do our best to have TA reinstated, although we'll likely need to review the eligibility requirements to ensure sustainability. We owe you more information on this and will provide details as soon as we can.

Thank you for your service to our Nation.


v/r

jac

JAMES A. CODY

Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force