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SgtS
02-07-2013, 05:31 AM
So, just got an e-mail from my org's SEA (I'm in a joint assignment, but he happens to be an AF CMSgt) about the Air Force PME situation for our organization. In it he talked about the discriminators AFPC is now using to determine who gets to go to SNCOA and who doesn't. According to his e-mail, AFPC will not schedule a member to go to SNCOA for:

"1. DEROS date within 12 months from graduation date"
"2. Has not completed course 14"
"3. PT exempt from 1 or more components"

Wait ... what? That's right. If you have a walk waiver, or push-up waiver, etc. you ain't going to SNCOA. Kiss that promotion good-bye.

CrustySMSgt
02-07-2013, 06:04 AM
hmmm... first I've heard of that. Will do some digging and see what I can find out. (Unfortunately the Senior Enlisted Leader for Air Force Enlisted Educationjust left here [deployed as EMSG Supt] a month ago, I could have gone straight to the source!)

CrustySMSgt
02-07-2013, 06:14 AM
"1. DEROS date within 12 months from graduation date"
"2. Has not completed course 14"


BTW, these two are easy... it is 12 months of retainability, which has always been the case and you have to have done the correspondance course before attending in residence.

SgtS
02-07-2013, 06:24 AM
BTW, these two are easy... it is 12 months of retainability, which has always been the case and you have to have done the correspondance course before attending in residence.

Of course, they weren't the focus of the post. Number three was. One and two are kinda no-brainers ... especially two.

CrustySMSgt
02-07-2013, 07:14 AM
Of course, they weren't the focus of the post. Number three was. One and two are kinda no-brainers ... especially two.

Shot an email to the Chief there; will let you know what I find out!

technomage1
02-07-2013, 10:36 AM
I understand the first 2. But if a doc says you should be on profile - and it makes its way through the insane profile system we have today - number 3 should not be an issue.

Deploy Me Please
02-07-2013, 11:00 AM
I went to SNCOA last spring and we had quite a few folks on waivers. If it is a rule, it is a pretty new one.

JD2780
02-07-2013, 12:44 PM
So, just got an e-mail from my org's SEA (I'm in a joint assignment, but he happens to be an AF CMSgt) about the Air Force PME situation for our organization. In it he talked about the discriminators AFPC is now using to determine who gets to go to SNCOA and who doesn't. According to his e-mail, AFPC will not schedule a member to go to SNCOA for:

"1. DEROS date within 12 months from graduation date"
"2. Has not completed course 14"
"3. PT exempt from 1 or more components"

Wait ... what? That's right. If you have a walk waiver, or push-up waiver, etc. you ain't going to SNCOA. Kiss that promotion good-bye.

Its one of two things. The WING wont schedule you for it, but are saying its AFPCs issue. The other one could be, big AF is still trying to reduce retirement money by screwing people over in promotion. Cant wait to see what Crusty says. It doesnt apply to me, but it is interesting.

CJSmith
02-07-2013, 01:56 PM
Its one of two things. The WING wont schedule you for it, but are saying its AFPCs issue. The other one could be, big AF is still trying to reduce retirement money by screwing people over in promotion. Cant wait to see what Crusty says. It doesnt apply to me, but it is interesting.

The AF still has to promote 1% to E9 and 2% to E8. So I don't see this as a way of reducing retirements. Or I could have just read your post wrong which I've done before.

tiredretiredE7
02-07-2013, 01:57 PM
So, just got an e-mail from my org's SEA (I'm in a joint assignment, but he happens to be an AF CMSgt) about the Air Force PME situation for our organization. In it he talked about the discriminators AFPC is now using to determine who gets to go to SNCOA and who doesn't. According to his e-mail, AFPC will not schedule a member to go to SNCOA for:

"1. DEROS date within 12 months from graduation date"
"2. Has not completed course 14"
"3. PT exempt from 1 or more components"

Wait ... what? That's right. If you have a walk waiver, or push-up waiver, etc. you ain't going to SNCOA. Kiss that promotion good-bye.

Some USAFE units had an additional requirement of CCAF completion but nothing on PT in 2011.

CrustySMSgt
02-07-2013, 02:36 PM
Some USAFE units had an additional requirement of CCAF completion but nothing on PT in 2011.

Why would you send a MSgt to SNCOA who hasn't completed CCAF?


Its one of two things. The WING wont schedule you for it, but are saying its AFPCs issue. The other one could be, big AF is still trying to reduce retirement money by screwing people over in promotion. Cant wait to see what Crusty says. It doesnt apply to me, but it is interesting.

There have been no changes regarding how they look at profiles.



Physical or Duty Profiles with Restrictions or Limitations

Have you been placed on Physical or Duty Profile with Limitation or Restriction?

If so, you must be pre-approved to attend the AFSNCOA.

BACKGROUND

The USAF requires all students attending the AF SNCO Academy (AFSNCOA) to be able to complete all course curriculum activities, to include academics, fitness, drill, and combined operations. This means all students on physical/duty profiles with restrictions or limitations, regardless of service affiliation, must have their profile pre-coordinated with the AFSNCOA. Students with profile annotated on AF Form 469, Duty Limiting Condition Report or AF Form 422, Notification of Air Force Member's Qualification Status (or sister service equivalents) will not report to school without prior coordination of the AF Form 469/422 and attendance approval by the AFSNCOA. Upon selection for class and until the class start date, students who possess or receive an AF Form 469/422 that expires after the course start date must before departing for the AFSNCOA, provides base formal training office a copy of the form for routing and approval. Sister services use their service-specific or base-specific forms. AFSNCOA will determine if the student is accepted or deferred based on the school's ability to accommodate the medical or physical condition and based on an overall assessment of impact to the course objectives. Students who possess an AF 469/422 (or sister service equivalent) and report to school without prior approval may be deemed ineligible and subject to return travel at unit expense.

COORDINATION PROCESS

1. Member is selected to attend the AFSNCOA and signs a formal training allocation notification.

2. If at any time the member is placed on a physical/duty profiles with limitation or restriction, immediately notify chain of command and base formal training office.

3. Member provides a copy of the physical or duty profile to the base formal training office or sister service equivalent.

4. The formal training office or sister service equivalent sends a copy to the AFSNCOA student administration office immediately.

5. Student administration office notifies member's formal training office or sister service equivalent of the decision and in-turn notifies the member.

6. If approved, the member proceeds to the AFSNCOA. If deferred, the member seeks a new class date via AFPC or the sister-service equivalent.

CONCLUSION

Students with physical/ duty profile with restriction or limitations must receive approval from the AFSNCOA before departing the duty station for the academy.


No hard numbers on a percentage of those rejected, but they apparently do look at them hard and if you can't drill and participate in some form of PT, they will kick you down the road. A local unit would have no reason to use this as a discriminator; if someone gets selected, run their name up and if it gets shot down, you backfill with the next guy.

JD2780
02-07-2013, 04:41 PM
Why would you send a MSgt to SNCOA who hasn't completed CCAF?



There have been no changes regarding how they look at profiles.



No hard numbers on a percentage of those rejected, but they apparently do look at them hard and if you can't drill and participate in some form of PT, they will kick you down the road. A local unit would have no reason to use this as a discriminator; if someone gets selected, run their name up and if it gets shot down, you backfill with the next guy.

Where is the requirement to have a CCAF? Its only for SRE. If you refuse to send somebody to SNCOA but they have all the prereqs knocked out then the AF is holding them back. There is no requirement to have SRE to make SMSgt. I know its next to impossible, but its not required.

grimreaper
02-07-2013, 04:55 PM
Where is the requirement to have a CCAF? Its only for SRE. If you refuse to send somebody to SNCOA but they have all the prereqs knocked out then the AF is holding them back. There is no requirement to have SRE to make SMSgt. I know its next to impossible, but its not required.

But when you rack and stack your MSgts, someone without a CCAF is going to be waaaay down on the list compared to his peers. Why would someone that far down on the list be chosen for in-residence PME over the other MSgts who do have CCAF? Since in-residence SNCOA is only a prereq to sew on E-8, how is it holding him back if you acknowledge that it's impossible to make it? Good chance you wouldn't be attending SNCOA until you've been selected for promotion to E-8 anyway.

JD2780
02-07-2013, 05:50 PM
But when you rack and stack your MSgts, someone without a CCAF is going to be waaaay down on the list compared to his peers. Why would someone that far down on the list be chosen for in-residence PME over the other MSgts who do have CCAF? Since in-residence SNCOA is only a prereq to sew on E-8, how is it holding him back if you acknowledge that it's impossible to make it? Good chance you wouldn't be attending SNCOA until you've been selected for promotion to E-8 anyway.

In a TACP unit there arent many SNCOs. At most 2 usually. Most flight chiefs tend to be TSgts or very young MSgts. So the pool isnt that big to begin with. Sq Sup is usually a young SMSgt or old MSgt

Is SNCOA slots picked up by Wing? What if you arent assigned to a wing? What if you go from Sq-Gp-#AF-MAJCOM. I never made it to the point where I needed to worry about this. I'm just curious.

tiredretiredE7
02-07-2013, 07:23 PM
Why would you send a MSgt to SNCOA who hasn't completed CCAF?

No hard numbers on a percentage of those rejected, but they apparently do look at them hard and if you can't drill and participate in some form of PT, they will kick you down the road. A local unit would have no reason to use this as a discriminator; if someone gets selected, run their name up and if it gets shot down, you backfill with the next guy.

I was selected to go to SNCOA in 2009 right after I arrived at my last assignment. I did not want to go so I simply told the Chief I did not have a CCAF or mess dress (and I never purchased a mess dress). Those two issues ensured I would never go.

I would send any MSgt to SNCOA of they showed future potential. I didn't see CCAF mentioned by the OP so I added my 2 cents.

technomage1
02-07-2013, 07:27 PM
Why would you send a MSgt to SNCOA who hasn't completed CCAF?



There have been no changes regarding how they look at profiles.



No hard numbers on a percentage of those rejected, but they apparently do look at them hard and if you can't drill and participate in some form of PT, they will kick you down the road. A local unit would have no reason to use this as a discriminator; if someone gets selected, run their name up and if it gets shot down, you backfill with the next guy.

This makes sense. A pushup profile for a minor shoulder injury probably wouldn't knock you out of the course, but if you can't move 10 feet then you should wait until you're more able to attend the course.

Deciding on a case by case basis is OK. I'd have an issue if it was carte blanche "No".

imported_StandardsAMust
02-07-2013, 08:18 PM
So, just got an e-mail from my org's SEA (I'm in a joint assignment, but he happens to be an AF CMSgt) about the Air Force PME situation for our organization. In it he talked about the discriminators AFPC is now using to determine who gets to go to SNCOA and who doesn't. According to his e-mail, AFPC will not schedule a member to go to SNCOA for:

"1. DEROS date within 12 months from graduation date"
"2. Has not completed course 14"
"3. PT exempt from 1 or more components"

Wait ... what? That's right. If you have a walk waiver, or push-up waiver, etc. you ain't going to SNCOA. Kiss that promotion good-bye.

If #3 is correct, this wouldn't have anything to do with any current profile the member is on prior to going to SNCOA per the guidance Crusty posted above.

Right now, you have to have a current and passing PT test to attend ALS/NCOA/SNCOA. You cannot go while in the "unsat" category. Ironically, you can deploy to a war zone in this category, but not attend PME.

I would hedge a bet that many SNCO's are going to the school with passing PT scores showing many types of exemptions on their most recent test. I do not know what that percentage is, but I wouldn't be surprised if 30% of the class had an exemption(s) on their most current PT test (more than a 100 per class). I would also hedge a bet that the #1 exempted component is the cardio one.

If #3 is true, it's a step in the right direction and should be mandated for all levels of PME.

I can guarantee the profile rates would drop like a rock if #3 is true. Only those with true medical conditions warranting a real profile will be left to evaluate.

BRUWIN
02-07-2013, 08:50 PM
If #3 is correct, this wouldn't have anything to do with any current profile the member is on prior to going to SNCOA per the guidance Crusty posted above.

Right now, you have to have a current and passing PT test to attend ALS/NCOA/SNCOA. You cannot go while in the "unsat" category. Ironically, you can deploy to a war zone in this category, but not attend PME.

I would hedge a bet that many SNCO's are going to the school with passing PT scores showing many types of exemptions on their most recent test. I do not know what that percentage is, but I wouldn't be surprised if 30% of the class had an exemption(s) on their most current PT test (more than a 100 per class). I would also hedge a bet that the #1 exempted component is the cardio one.

If #3 is true, it's a step in the right direction and should be mandated for all levels of PME.

I can guarantee the profile rates would drop like a rock if #3 is true. Only those with true medical conditions warranting a real profile will be left to evaluate.

Damn...your rep bar looks like the final scene of "Scarface."

DWWSWWD
02-07-2013, 09:44 PM
#3 is absolutely not true. Not happening at AFPC and would be very difficult to influence at the wing level. Once someone is scheduled, it takes the Wing CC to get them unscheduled. Regarding your the OPs last comment though, "kiss that promotion goodbye", SNCOA has nothing to do with promotion. The board cannot see whether you've gone in-residence or via course 14, unless you've won an award and it is in your EPR.

RetSNCO
02-07-2013, 11:34 PM
In a TACP unit there arent many SNCOs. At most 2 usually. Most flight chiefs tend to be TSgts or very young MSgts. So the pool isnt that big to begin with. Sq Sup is usually a young SMSgt or old MSgt

Is SNCOA slots picked up by Wing? What if you arent assigned to a wing? What if you go from Sq-Gp-#AF-MAJCOM. I never made it to the point where I needed to worry about this. I'm just curious.

Been a few years since I attended, but in FY10 AFPC kept the master list. People selected for E-8 were top priority and essentially went in line number order from the first class after promotion release. Then there is a criteria based on parts of the promotion process (board score, test, etc) to rack and stack the non-selects. Out of this, they have primaries (who are guaranteed a seat in some class) and alternates (who were not guaranteed, but could attend). The wing has nothing to do with it but notify you or try to reclama if you are selected for a class. Not sure if that process changed but there was a push to take all PME scheduling out of wings since they had a problem allowing people to skip PME without the career ramifications.

As for profiles, there was maybe 50 out of 400 people on the profile flight. They did PT separate from the rest but I heard it was intense still. The reason you couldn't go as a failure is they don't have enough people to do the monitoring necessary (4-5 times a week mandatory PT). But just a profile you could go because they had several areas you could work out with the rest of the group. They could always change it to no profiles, I'm sure someone has thought of it. You don't need SNCOA (as of a few years ago) to pin on E-8, so theoretically you can still get promoted that high.

grimreaper
02-07-2013, 11:40 PM
Been a few years since I attended, but in FY10 AFPC kept the master list. People selected for E-8 were top priority and essentially went in line number order from the first class after promotion release. Then there is a criteria based on parts of the promotion process (board score, test, etc) to rack and stack the non-selects. Out of this, they have primaries (who are guaranteed a seat in some class) and alternates (who were not guaranteed, but could attend). The wing has nothing to do with it but notify you or try to reclama if you are selected for a class. Not sure if that process changed but there was a push to take all PME scheduling out of wings since they had a problem allowing people to skip PME without the career ramifications.

As for profiles, there was maybe 50 out of 400 people on the profile flight. They did PT separate from the rest but I heard it was intense still. The reason you couldn't go as a failure is they don't have enough people to do the monitoring necessary (4-5 times a week mandatory PT). But just a profile you could go because they had several areas you could work out with the rest of the group. They could always change it to no profiles, I'm sure someone has thought of it. You don't need SNCOA (as of a few years ago) to pin on E-8, so theoretically you can still get promoted that high.

If it wasn't then, it is now.

AFPAM36-2241

9.16.2.3.1. Mission and Goals. The AFSNCOA mission is to prepare senior NCOs to lead the enlisted force in the employment of air, space and cyberspace power in support of national security objectives. The AFSNCOA vision is to equip today’s senor enlisted leaders to be tomorrow’s expeditionary warriors. AFSNCOA in residence is required for promotion to SMSgt.

Edit: as I was copy/pasting I noticed the type-o "senor" in the PDG.

CrustySMSgt
02-08-2013, 05:09 AM
Where is the requirement to have a CCAF? Its only for SRE. If you refuse to send somebody to SNCOA but they have all the prereqs knocked out then the AF is holding them back. There is no requirement to have SRE to make SMSgt. I know its next to impossible, but its not required.

grimreaper's comments below sum it up pretty good. With a smaller force and money being tight, we should reserve PME in residence for those who are most likely to be promoted. If you've been a MSgt for a couple years (the target for attending SNCOA in residence) and don't have your CCAF yet, that probably is a good indicator of your commitment to making SMSgt.

And as stated below, the board only sees you've completed SNCOA, so if you've done the distant learning, you've checked that block in the eyes of the board, so not going in residence isn't going to keep you from being promoted (but not doing your CCAF pretty much seals the deal).


But when you rack and stack your MSgts, someone without a CCAF is going to be waaaay down on the list compared to his peers. Why would someone that far down on the list be chosen for in-residence PME over the other MSgts who do have CCAF? Since in-residence SNCOA is only a prereq to sew on E-8, how is it holding him back if you acknowledge that it's impossible to make it? Good chance you wouldn't be attending SNCOA until you've been selected for promotion to E-8 anyway.


In a TACP unit there arent many SNCOs. At most 2 usually. Most flight chiefs tend to be TSgts or very young MSgts. So the pool isnt that big to begin with. Sq Sup is usually a young SMSgt or old MSgt

Is SNCOA slots picked up by Wing? What if you arent assigned to a wing? What if you go from Sq-Gp-#AF-MAJCOM. I never made it to the point where I needed to worry about this. I'm just curious.

The list is maintained by AFPC and selections are made based on WAPS scores & TIG.

I looked at the TACP AFSC when I was on the board. Y'all, the CCTs, PJs, and the like were tougher to score, because of the high ops tempo and focus on operational leadership. Can't discuss specifics (as I've been reminded in PMs) but in general, it was fairly obvious who was getting the job done and who just looked good on paper.

JD2780
02-08-2013, 05:53 PM
grimreaper's comments below sum it up pretty good. With a smaller force and money being tight, we should reserve PME in residence for those who are most likely to be promoted. If you've been a MSgt for a couple years (the target for attending SNCOA in residence) and don't have your CCAF yet, that probably is a good indicator of your commitment to making SMSgt.

And as stated below, the board only sees you've completed SNCOA, so if you've done the distant learning, you've checked that block in the eyes of the board, so not going in residence isn't going to keep you from being promoted (but not doing your CCAF pretty much seals the deal).





The list is maintained by AFPC and selections are made based on WAPS scores & TIG.

I looked at the TACP AFSC when I was on the board. Y'all, the CCTs, PJs, and the like were tougher to score, because of the high ops tempo and focus on operational leadership. Can't discuss specifics (as I've been reminded in PMs) but in general, it was fairly obvious who was getting the job done and who just looked good on paper.

As of recently it is, but in 06 it wasnt so obvious apparently because there was the single most hated person in the AFSC that received his E-9. He steam rolled people everywhere. I know, now and then somebody squeeks by, its part of life. Lately, I've seen some very squared away guy making it E-8 and E-9 also. There is hope!!!

I value operational leadership better than sitting behind a desk at some unit forcing guys inside when the same training can be conducted out on the range. Oh well, things be a changing for the 1C4 much for the better, little for the worse.

BRUWIN
02-08-2013, 08:57 PM
I notice nothing in these new rules is mentioned about dumb asses being ineligible for SNCOA.

StuporFly
07-11-2013, 11:42 AM
[QUOTE=CrustySMSgt;605927]grimreaper's comments below sum it up pretty good. With a smaller force and money being tight, we should reserve PME in residence for those who are most likely to be promoted. If you've been a MSgt for a couple years (the target for attending SNCOA in residence) and don't have your CCAF yet, that probably is a good indicator of your commitment to making SMSgt.

And as stated below, the board only sees you've completed SNCOA, so if you've done the distant learning, you've checked that block in the eyes of the board, so not going in residence isn't going to keep you from being promoted (but not doing your CCAF pretty much seals the deal).





The list is maintained by AFPC and selections are made based on WAPS scores & TIG.


I'm a newbie going through older threads so I'm sorry if this is old news. Some people are apparrently really lucky. Just got a Msgt in that attended SNCOA before he even tested for the 1st time for E8. And went to a sister service academy to boot. This was just last year. So that whole WAPS test being a factor doesn't ring true in this case. He is really high-speed and will probably get picked up this coming cycle though.
On the flip side we had a SMgt wearing his rank almost 2 years before he went to SNCOA.
I've got 4 years in grade, all boxes checked, maybe I'll get to go someday. I'd prefer to go to one of the other service academies, too. I hope when I do go it will be a shorter class like I keep hearing about.

Chief_KO
07-11-2013, 12:07 PM
If it wasn't then, it is now.

AFPAM36-2241

9.16.2.3.1. Mission and Goals. The AFSNCOA mission is to prepare senior NCOs to lead the enlisted force in the employment of air, space and cyberspace power in support of national security objectives. The AFSNCOA vision is to equip today’s senor enlisted leaders to be tomorrow’s expeditionary warriors. AFSNCOA in residence is required for promotion to SMSgt.

Edit: as I was copy/pasting I noticed the type-o "senor" in the PDG.

The PDG should never be used as guidance or as a directive. It is a pamphlet (AFPAM), not a manual (AFMAN) or instruction (AFI). I forget the AFI on promotions and am too retired to look it up. As said earlier, the promo board only sees the RIP showing "Y" for completion of SNCOA. The only way a board would know if a member attended in residence is if that member won an award.
I enjoyed SNCOA, had a great seminar group, lots of fun eating, drinking, laughing...and picked up a few professional leadership tools.

Pullinteeth
07-11-2013, 12:40 PM
AFI 36-2502

1.11. Professional Military Education (PME) Requirements. Airmen selected for promotion to SSgt, MSgt, or SMSgt must complete in-residence PME before assuming these grades (SSgt = ALS, MSgt = NCOA, and SMSgt = SNCOA). MilPDS automatically withholds promotion for those who do not complete appropriate PME prior to the effective date

Keep in mind this ONLY applies to ADAF...

BISSBOSS
07-11-2013, 01:57 PM
So, just got an e-mail from my org's SEA (I'm in a joint assignment, but he happens to be an AF CMSgt) about the Air Force PME situation for our organization. In it he talked about the discriminators AFPC is now using to determine who gets to go to SNCOA and who doesn't. According to his e-mail, AFPC will not schedule a member to go to SNCOA for:

"1. DEROS date within 12 months from graduation date"
"2. Has not completed course 14"
"3. PT exempt from 1 or more components"

Wait ... what? That's right. If you have a walk waiver, or push-up waiver, etc. you ain't going to SNCOA. Kiss that promotion good-bye.

Wow...

Absolutely incredible.

I KNEW that the new philosophy was that PT is more important than being proficient at you Primary AFSC but apparently it is also a KEY indicator of you future potential as an AF Leader and Senior NCO!

Hmmmmph.

Who'd have thunk it

-BB-

Pullinteeth
07-11-2013, 02:05 PM
Wow...

Absolutely incredible.

I KNEW that the new philosophy was that PT is more important than being proficient at you Primary AFSC but apparently it is also a KEY indicator of you future potential as an AF Leader and Senior NCO!

Hmmmmph.

Who'd have thunk it

-BB-

If you have ever been, it makes sense. It isn't that you CAN'T go if you are on a limiting profile, it is just that they have to be more discriminating. It has been this way for years. They have a cripple flight for PT but they also have I think 4 non-cripple flights. They can only take so many cripples in the cripple flight AND they have to factor in that it seems like some people get off a profile to go and then get back on one as soon as they get there AND some of us old bastards actually do get broken @ SNCOA. Factor all that in and you will get the # of cripples they can take on the front end. So, while it isn't impossible for a cripple to go to SNCOA, it is a bit more difficult than for someone that isn't broken...

DWWSWWD
07-11-2013, 02:08 PM
Wow...

Absolutely incredible.

I KNEW that the new philosophy was that PT is more important than being proficient at you Primary AFSC but apparently it is also a KEY indicator of you future potential as an AF Leader and Senior NCO!

Hmmmmph.

Who'd have thunk it

-BB- Once again, not true. Commandants approve or disapprove attendance for profiles. I will very seldom disapprove one. It's more important that someone come get educated than it is for me to watch them do a push-up.

BISSBOSS
07-11-2013, 02:27 PM
Once again, not true. Commandants approve or disapprove attendance for profiles. I will very seldom disapprove one. It's more important that someone come get educated than it is for me to watch them do a push-up.


Originally Posted by SgtS
So, just got an e-mail from my org's SEA (I'm in a joint assignment, but he happens to be an AF CMSgt) about the Air Force PME situation for our organization. In it he talked about the discriminators AFPC is now using to determine who gets to go to SNCOA and who doesn't. According to his e-mail, AFPC will not schedule a member to go to SNCOA for:

"1. DEROS date within 12 months from graduation date"
"2. Has not completed course 14"
"3. PT exempt from 1 or more components"

Wait ... what? That's right. If you have a walk waiver, or push-up waiver, etc. you ain't going to SNCOA. Kiss that promotion good-bye.


Seems like AFPC is making that decision for you... A Commandant should see the list of personnel on a PT Component Waiver reduced drastically now - No?

-BB-

Pullinteeth
07-11-2013, 03:41 PM
I went to Keesler in 2005, you just needed to bring profile so they could see limitation.

I wasn't aware SNCOA was EVER at Keesler much less as recently as 2005....and according to the AF, it never was...
http://www.afhra.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=15356

imported_MERC8401
07-12-2013, 05:25 AM
I've recently been briefed that you have to have 3 consecutive passing PT scores with the last 2 being a 90 or above. And that will only get you nominated to go...then you will have interviews and mock PT tests with the Command Chief prior to being able to attend. I figured that was a base or MAJCOM idea. Is it AFPC that actually selects who goes? Or is it the base or MAJCOM that selects? All I thought when I got briefed that was....well looks like those SNCOA classes are going to get a lot smaller.

Measure Man
07-12-2013, 05:45 AM
I've recently been briefed that you have to have 3 consecutive passing PT scores with the last 2 being a 90 or above. And that will only get you nominated to go...then you will have interviews and mock PT tests with the Command Chief prior to being able to attend. I figured that was a base or MAJCOM idea. Is it AFPC that actually selects who goes? Or is it the base or MAJCOM that selects? All I thought when I got briefed that was....well looks like those SNCOA classes are going to get a lot smaller.

How about 3 consecutive >75 SKT scores...with the last 2 being 80 or above!!

Oh no, SKT score is a super-secret private affair between a member and his/her commander.

What's more important AF?

Drackore
07-12-2013, 07:59 AM
BLUF (TL;DR): Stop worrying. Welcome letter dated Jun 2013 states that if you are on a profile, it has to be precoordinated, not auto-rejected!

Go to the AF Portal, at the home screen in the search box type SNCOA, then select Air Force Senior Noncommissioned Officer Academy - AFSNCOA, most likely the first link.

From there, select the link for Duty Limiting Condition (DLC) Profiles. That is dated April 2011. Also look for the welcome letter (cut/pasted below):

MEMORANDUM FOR AFSNCOA CLASS 13-E 15 June 2013
FROM: AFSNCOA/EDB/SA
SUBJECT: Welcome Letter

1. Greetings and welcome to the AFSNCOA. You are in for a challenging and exciting 7 weeks of operational and strategic leadership enhancement! As with each and every educational or professional development opportunity, you get out of it what you put into it. While at the AFSNCOA, you will have the opportunity to interact with senior mentors, AF senior leaders, and business/industry professionals who are focused on your development as a Senior Enlisted Leader. You will also participate in physical fitness, a local community volunteer project, and an Air Force enlisted cultural event (Warrior Day). Furthermore, you will have an opportunity to interact with sister service and coalition partner students.

2. You are required to take the following actions upon notification of attendance by your formal training office.
a. Ensure your fitness test is current, and PASSING, and does not expire during the class (6 Aug–20 Sep 13).
NOTE: You are not permitted to attend if your assessment is not passing and current through the entire class.
b. If you are on a FITNESS PROFILE, the profile needs to be coordinated and approved by the AFSNCOA. If you have NOT accomplished this, do so IMMEDIATELY through your unit/base formal training manager.
NOTE: You are NOT permitted to attend the course if you do not have a coordinated and approved profile.c. Ensure your DoD IAA Cyber Awareness Challenge Training is current through 20 Sep 13. Maxwell-Gunter AFB migrated to the AF Network; you will not have access to the network if your IAA Training is not current.

3. Upon arriving at Gunter Annex, proceed to the University Inn Reception Desk to check-in. You do not need to make lodging reservations; a block of rooms are set aside for AFSNCOA Students. While at the reception desk, locate the student roster to identify your respective flight assignment. If you have lodging questions call DSN 596-5501 or Comm (334) 270-4000. Showtime for day of education (DOE) 1, (6 Aug 13) is 0700. DOE 1 uniform is the service uniform. You are required to bring the following items on DOE 1:
a. Current and passing fitness test and profile (if applicable)b. A personal or government-issued laptop/netbook is highly recommended considering the curriculum is ONLY offered electronically. If you bring a laptop/netbook, it needs to be compatible with ADOBE, preferably ADOBE 10, as ADOBE 10 allows highlighting and note taking on the electronic medium. The AFSNCOA has a very limited supply of laptops for those personnel who absolutely cannot acquire a personal or government laptop for use. Contact DSN 596-4902 or Comm (334) 416-4902 or e-mail afsncoa.protocol@us.af.mil to reserve one NLT 29 Jul 13. Keep in mind, our objective is to minimize paper copies and the inefficiency they drive.

4. Labor Day is observed Mon, 2 Sep. You ARE authorized to leave the local area over the 3-day weekend. Do not plan to depart before 1630 on Fri, 30 Aug.

5. Graduation is 20 Sep; you will be released NLT 1200. To be on the safe side, ensure your return flight departs no earlier than 1500. Allow extra time if flying out of Birmingham or Atlanta (Atlanta is one hour ahead).

6. For more information, refer to the AF Portal AFSNCOA site at the following link https://www.my.af.mil/gcss-af/USAF/ep/globalTab.do?command=org&pageId=681742&channelPageId=s6925EC1343FB0FB5E044080020E329A9. We look forward to meeting and serving you throughout your class.

//signed/ljd/15 June 2013//
LARON J. DASS, SMSgt, USAF
Superintendent, Student Administration

CrustySMSgt
07-12-2013, 12:07 PM
BLUF (TL;DR): Stop worrying. Welcome letter dated Jun 2013 states that if you are on a profile, it has to be precoordinated, not auto-rejected!


Stop trying to confuse people with facts! :fish :silly:

Chief_KO
07-12-2013, 12:10 PM
I've recently been briefed that you have to have 3 consecutive passing PT scores with the last 2 being a 90 or above. And that will only get you nominated to go...then you will have interviews and mock PT tests with the Command Chief prior to being able to attend. I figured that was a base or MAJCOM idea. Is it AFPC that actually selects who goes? Or is it the base or MAJCOM that selects? All I thought when I got briefed that was....well looks like those SNCOA classes are going to get a lot smaller.

Now we know why a Command Chief needs his/her own exec....

20+Years
07-12-2013, 12:39 PM
The "policy" has been around for several years. I went back in 09 or 10, it existed. They supposedly only allow a certain percent to come with waivers. Do they really stick to it, who knows? As someone said, the profile group has thier own work session.

I can see CCMs scruitinizing it locally though.

DWWSWWD
07-12-2013, 12:58 PM
I've recently been briefed that you have to have 3 consecutive passing PT scores with the last 2 being a 90 or above. And that will only get you nominated to go...then you will have interviews and mock PT tests with the Command Chief prior to being able to attend. I figured that was a base or MAJCOM idea. Is it AFPC that actually selects who goes? Or is it the base or MAJCOM that selects? All I thought when I got briefed that was....well looks like those SNCOA classes are going to get a lot smaller.

SNCOs are selected by AFPC to attend SNCOA. I could easily believe a CCM instituting some kind of arbitrary standard but it would be very, very difficult to carry out. AFPC would quickly notice the deferments (approved by Wing CC under strict criteria) and that wouldn't last long. Somebody is blowing smoke up your skirt. There's no limit on the number of profiles that a school could accept. Seems there is a certain percentage of folks with limitations and that number stays about the same from one class to the next.

CrustySMSgt
07-12-2013, 01:13 PM
SNCOs are selected by AFPC to attend SNCOA. I could easily believe a CCM instituting some kind of arbitrary standard but it would be very, very difficult to carry out. AFPC would quickly notice the deferments (approved by Wing CC under strict criteria) and that wouldn't last long. Somebody is blowing smoke up your skirt. There's no limit on the number of profiles that a school could accept. Seems there is a certain percentage of folks with limitations and that number stays about the same from one class to the next.

What is up with y'all trying to confuse people with facts today? Facts are much less interesting than rumor, speculation, and doom crying! :biggrin-new:

Pullinteeth
07-12-2013, 01:52 PM
SNCOs are selected by AFPC to attend SNCOA. I could easily believe a CCM instituting some kind of arbitrary standard but it would be very, very difficult to carry out. AFPC would quickly notice the deferments (approved by Wing CC under strict criteria) and that wouldn't last long. Somebody is blowing smoke up your skirt. There's no limit on the number of profiles that a school could accept. Seems there is a certain percentage of folks with limitations and that number stays about the same from one class to the next.

I only know how it works in my little corner of the AF but for us, the SQ has to recommend you, it goes to HQ, and if you meet their criteria, THEN they submit your name. We get a certian # of dates and it is up to our training person who they put in the slot....

imported_MERC8401
07-15-2013, 01:43 AM
I would think that the Wing CC and the CCM could deny someone the opprotunity to attend SNCOA if they didn't deem the individual ready. It's my impression that AFPC sends the Wing CC a list of names of people eligible and he widdles that list down to the people he would like to attend. Is that not how the system works?

raustin0017
07-15-2013, 02:11 AM
People are already vetted before the list is sent to the Wings.