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efmbman
02-03-2013, 01:30 PM
From today's Washington Post:



THE UNITED STATES has invested tens of billions of dollars in the past decade alone to foil illegal immigration — tightening the border, accelerating deportations, deputizing local police — while doing precious little to stop employers from hiring undocumented immigrants.

That is fixable — by means of a universal national identity card — and must be fixed as part of any sensible overhaul of the nation’s immigration system.

Critics of immigration reform are right that the last big attempt to fix the system, in 1986, was no fix at all. Millions of undocumented immigrants were given amnesty but without any effective provision to stop future illegal migrants from entering the country or overstaying their visas.

If the current attempt to reform the system includes a provision to legalize some 11 million illegal immigrants — and we hope it does — it must not repeat the mistake of 1986. That means establishing mechanisms to ensure an adequate supply of legal immigrant labor, skilled and unskilled. And it means deterring unauthorized entry.

There are two ways to achieve that goal. One is to deploy sensors, drones and thousands more agents along the border, as both the George W. Bush and Obama administrations have done, to significant effect. The other is to make it easy for companies to detect and reject undocumented job applicants and for the government to prosecute employers who flout the law. If illegal immigrants can’t get jobs, they won’t come to this country.

An effective solution would be to issue tamper-proof, biometric ID cards — using fingerprints or a comparably unique identifier — to all citizens and legal residents. Last week, both President Obama and a bipartisan group of eight senators seeking immigration reform urged something along those lines, without calling it a universal national identity card. That’s a major step forward.

The senators proposed requiring job applicants to demonstrate legal status and identity by “non-forgeable electronic means,” along with “safeguards to protect American workers, prevent identity theft, and provide due process protections.” The president proposed a “fraud-resistant, tamper-resistant Social Security card,” among other secure documents, to prove work eligibility.

Critics on both the civil-liberties left and the libertarian right have long resisted such cards as the embodiment of a Big Brother brand of government, omniscient, invasive and tentacular. Their criticisms ring hollow.

More than a third of Americans (35 percent) possess passports, up from just 6 percent 20 years ago — and all passports issued since 2007 contain chips that enable biometric use of facial recognition technology. The proliferation of passports for foreign travel has not encroached on Americans’ civil liberties. Why would another form of ID, used for employment verification, pose such a threat?

Yes, unscrupulous employers could still ignore the law, but doing so would become riskier and more prone to enforcement. Critics contend that a national ID would only drive up the cost of counterfeit documents. Would they prefer that falsified documents are cheap?

A phased-in, reliable ID might have other benefits — for instance, to safeguard voting. That should satisfy Republicans who insist that IDs prevent fraud at the ballot, as well as Democrats who believe Republicans want to suppress voting.

Inevitably, there would be glitches and errors. But with effective safeguards for privacy and against government prying, the benefits would easily outweigh the costs.


Is it Big Brother...? A violation of civil liberties? If so, how exactly?

Or is it way to protect our country?

sandsjames
02-03-2013, 01:31 PM
And cue RFD.

CrustySMSgt
02-03-2013, 02:01 PM
It's an f-ing ID card... WTF does that have to do with "big brother?"

As long as it is tailorable to make it dual purpose as your driver's license, so you don't have to carry both, I'm all for it. Only down side is I'd have to get rid of my original DL that I'm still using... always fun to present it and get a good laugh when they see my photo from when I was 16 and that it expired in 1987!

Quixotic
02-03-2013, 06:04 PM
I think the best way to answer the question is: Will a National I.D. card solve the problem of Illegal Immigration? I don't think so.

Employers know when they are hiring illegals and having another potential form of 'proof of citizenship' for them to ignore will not solve the problem.

And yes, "using fingerprints or a comparably unique identifier" to collect my biometric signature, to track me like a criminal, would be an invasion of my privacy and a violation of my civil rights - as if we really have any anymore.

I guess if you live your life in fear of terrorists, a National I.D. does have some merit though.

Or, if your a politician interested in gerrymandering districts more effectively, a National database to draw more specific demographic information from would be great.

Tell me, exactly who does a National I.D. really benefit the most...? You? Me? Or somebody else...?

efmbman
02-03-2013, 06:20 PM
And yes, "using fingerprints or a comparably unique identifier" to collect my biometric signature, to track me like a criminal, would be an invasion of my privacy and a violation of my civil rights - as if we really have any anymore.

As members of the military, are we not already tracked, fingerprinted and have DNA on file? Granted the population at large certainly is not subject to this - at least until one of them is arrested or convicted of a crime serious enough to warrant such sampling.

I forget who said it, but to paraphase: One has a right to privacy. But in an age of terrorism and illegal immigration you don't have a right to be anonymous.


Tell me, exactly who does a National I.D. really benefit the most...? You? Me? Or somebody else...?

That is the question, isn't it? Bravo, Quixotic.

Greg
02-03-2013, 06:23 PM
More baffling BS from our legislators in DC. They just need to enforce the laws already on the books!

sandsjames
02-03-2013, 07:51 PM
More baffling BS from our legislators in DC. They just need to enforce the laws already on the books!

Exactly. If they did that, none of these other issues would even matter.

garhkal
02-03-2013, 09:16 PM
Is it Big Brother...? A violation of civil liberties? If so, how exactly?

Or is it way to protect our country?

I am all for it. BUT you can bet there are gonna be those clambering that this will hurt the poor etc.


Employers know when they are hiring illegals and having another potential form of 'proof of citizenship' for them to ignore will not solve the problem.

Which is why i fully support greater penalties on companies (and the personnel doing the hiring) that DO hire illegals.


More baffling BS from our legislators in DC. They just need to enforce the laws already on the books!


Plus As what happened with Regan, when the dems pleaded to secure the border if they just pass amnesty for the illegals here back then, who here Honestly thinks doing so again will be any different.

CYBERFX1024
02-03-2013, 11:24 PM
But having to show this to vote would still be considered racist and derogatory to minorities and the poor.

efmbman
02-04-2013, 12:31 AM
But having to show this to vote would still be considered racist and derogatory to minorities and the poor.

Why? If everyone has to show it, how would it single out the minorites and the poor?

Greg
02-04-2013, 12:38 AM
Why? If everyone has to show it, how would it single out the minorites and the poor?

Supposedly due to added expense. But that myth has been proven untrue. Minorities and the poor can be given waivers by local social and welfare departments.

Blue Warrior
02-04-2013, 01:05 AM
We should just all get microchip implants with GPS or RFID technology.

CYBERFX1024
02-04-2013, 03:18 AM
Why? If everyone has to show it, how would it single out the minorites and the poor?


Who knows. I was making a joke. Because supposedly minorities and poor people don't have and don't need ANY type of actual state id. That's how us Crazy White Republicans are instituting the new Jim Crow laws.

Also Democrats are using this saying that it discriminates against the minorities and poor people when it is brought up in court.

CrustySMSgt
02-04-2013, 03:23 AM
I'm gonna go back to my default answer... if you've got nothing to hide, why gives a hoot if someone has your fingerprints on file (which as previously mentioned, they already do if you've been in the military)?

Agree without enforcing the laws already on the books and making those breaking the laws feel pain as well as discouraging illegals from coming here, it won't make a difference. But it would clear up some identity theft and fake ID issues... though for enough money, someone will crack the code soon enough.

efmbman
02-04-2013, 09:43 PM
Who knows. I was making a joke.

I know - just being devil's advocate a little. That is, strangely, an argument I keep hearing on this subject. So far, no one has laid out a convincing reason as to why anyone would be oppressed.


... if you've got nothing to hide, why gives a hoot if someone has your fingerprints on file...?

Agreed. I can't see a down side to a national ID card. I see plently of upside. I see lot's of reasons for people that are up to no good to oppose the national ID card.

garhkal
02-05-2013, 08:17 PM
I'm gonna go back to my default answer... if you've got nothing to hide, why gives a hoot if someone has your fingerprints on file (which as previously mentioned, they already do if you've been in the military)?


I hear that argument used also to demand dna/searches without probable cause. Does not fly with me..

jconners [Stolen Valor]
02-15-2013, 11:44 PM
I recommend a National ID card that also requires fingerprinting...for all persons 18 and above...and restoring the draft and mandatory draft registration at age 18...combine the process...everyone, no exceptions...

KellyinAvon
02-16-2013, 12:19 AM
I recommend a National ID card that also requires fingerprinting...for all persons 18 and above...and restoring the draft and mandatory draft registration at age 18...combine the process...everyone, no exceptions...

In your spare time when you're not busy being an Internet faker you really should read the 4th amendment to the United States Constitution.

efmbman
02-16-2013, 12:29 AM
Here is a perspective on how the National ID Card could be implemented and still be constitutional:

http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1071&context=dltr

Banned
02-17-2013, 05:34 PM
The naivity around here is amazing. So if corporations are already ignoring birth certificates, background checks and social security cards... do any of you HONESTLY believe that a "national ID card" will solve anything?

efmbman
02-17-2013, 07:42 PM
The naivity around here is amazing. So if corporations are already ignoring birth certificates, background checks and social security cards... do any of you HONESTLY believe that a "national ID card" will solve anything?

We can't all be as perfect as you are, Joe. We try... enlighten us please. Grace us with your profound wisdom. Someone with it all figured out has, in my opinion, a civic duty to pass of such knowledge to the rest us.

Banned
02-19-2013, 07:24 PM
I just find it amusing that people who normally advocate for small government throw all that out the window when it comes to certain issues - like immigration and religion.

Pullinteeth
02-19-2013, 07:51 PM
An effective solution would be to issue tamper-proof, biometric ID cards — using fingerprints or a comparably unique identifier — to all citizens and legal residents. Last week, both President Obama and a bipartisan group of eight senators seeking immigration reform urged something along those lines, without calling it a universal national identity card. That’s a major step forward.

Since when is ANYTHING tamper proof? All it would take is a talented hacker working with a forger to go into the database and replace your biometric data with that of someone else and create a new ID.... Would it be as easy as making a fake DL, BC, and SSC? Probably not but tamper proof? No such thing.

efmbman
02-19-2013, 08:50 PM
I just find it amusing that people who normally advocate for small government throw all that out the window when it comes to certain issues - like immigration and religion.

Are you presuming to know that I advocate small government? You have probably deduced my stand on illegal immigration, but you have no idea what my thoughts on religion are. Or was that just an "in general" statement?

Banned
02-19-2013, 10:57 PM
Or was that just an "in general" statement?

Your perceptive skills are quite astute.

efmbman
02-19-2013, 11:03 PM
Your perceptive skills are quite astute.

Thanks, Joe. Does not really answer my question, however.

sandsjames
02-19-2013, 11:04 PM
I just find it amusing that people who normally advocate for small government throw all that out the window when it comes to certain issues - like immigration and religion.

I just find it amusing that people who normally advocate for freedom of choice throw all that out the window when it comes to certain issues - like chanting the letters of your country...and religion.

sandsjames
02-19-2013, 11:05 PM
Thanks, Joe. Does not really answer my question, however.

Has he ever answered a question? Seems that every response is just another accusation or a "so what your saying is..." statement. Never an answer. He's just like a politician.

Banned
02-19-2013, 11:07 PM
I just find it amusing that people who normally advocate for freedom of choice throw all that out the window when it comes to certain issues - like chanting the letters of your country...and religion.

You can believe whatever bullshit you want, so long as you're not infringing on the rights and well being of your fellow human beings.

Banned
02-19-2013, 11:08 PM
Thanks, Joe. Does not really answer my question, however.

And that question would be what exactly?

efmbman
02-19-2013, 11:12 PM
And that question would be what exactly?

The question is exactly what I posted earlier. You can't scroll up? You quoted it when you responded...


Has he ever answered a question? Seems that every response is just another accusation or a "so what your saying is..." statement. Never an answer. He's just like a politician.

Appears Sandjames is right. Never an answer.

TJMAC77SP
02-20-2013, 11:36 AM
You can believe whatever bullshit you want, so long as you're not infringing on the rights and well being of your fellow human beings.

I had hoped you would have realized what you had written here and deleted it by now. Do you need another day?

Let me help.

Read the last 25 posts you have written and tell me if you have not infringed on the "well-being" of a fellow human being.

Banned
02-20-2013, 03:37 PM
The question is exactly what I posted earlier. You can't scroll up? You quoted it when you responded...



Appears Sandjames is right. Never an answer.

As I had explained already, that was an "in general" statement. Now what question were you referrring to?

Banned
02-20-2013, 03:38 PM
I had hoped you would have realized what you had written here and deleted it by now. Do you need another day?

Let me help.

Read the last 25 posts you have written and tell me if you have not infringed on the "well-being" of a fellow human being.

I don't see it that way.

TJMAC77SP
02-20-2013, 04:07 PM
I don't see it that way.

Well, I knew THAT.

efmbman
02-20-2013, 09:08 PM
As I had explained already, that was an "in general" statement. Now what question were you referrring to?

You explained nothing, Joe. Here is your post from earlier:


Your perceptive skills are quite astute.

I try my best not to read into any statements, and I ask clarification when I am unsure about the meaning of a post. I, unlike many here, do not jump to conclusions. It is an important element of effective communication.

Thank you for answering. I sincerely appreciate it.

Robert F. Dorr
03-11-2013, 08:50 PM
This is a terrible idea.

sandsjames
03-12-2013, 04:25 AM
This is a terrible idea.

I agree, Bob. There should not be a national ID card. However, a valid ID card should be required in order to vote, purchase weapons, make banking transactions, etc. I would never want to require someone to have an ID card, or anything else for that matter (insurance, guns, etc). However, if they are going to want to take part in something which has a requirement (ie to vote you must be a citizen) then there HAS to be proof of that citizenship.

RobotChicken
03-12-2013, 04:29 AM
Might want to 'consult' with 'PYB' on THAT ONE!! :tape2:target

garhkal
03-12-2013, 04:30 AM
I agree, Bob. There should not be a national ID card. However, a valid ID card should be required in order to vote, purchase weapons, make banking transactions, etc.


Agreed with this.. Since we already require an id card for so much else, why not require one for voting.

RobotChicken
03-12-2013, 04:33 AM
The 'Social Security Number' was only for your account, NOTHING ELSE! Now it is your SS#on your arm!:smash

Banned
03-12-2013, 05:04 AM
If it ain't broke...

Robert F. Dorr
03-12-2013, 08:34 AM
We already have a national ID card. By using federal highway funds as the carrot, the federal government several years ago dictated to the states the size and shape of all driver's licenses. Fifty states in the union and not one of them said to Washington: "No thanks. Tenth amendment and all. Keep your money and we'll decide here in the state capital what our driver's licenses should look like."

Robert F. Dorr
03-12-2013, 08:35 AM
The 'Social Security Number' was only for your account, NOTHING ELSE! Now it is your SS#on your arm!:smash

Try opening a bank account without one.

sandsjames
03-12-2013, 11:50 AM
We already have a national ID card. By using federal highway funds as the carrot, the federal government several years ago dictated to the states the size and shape of all driver's licenses. Fifty states in the union and not one of them said to Washington: "No thanks. Tenth amendment and all. Keep your money and we'll decide here in the state capital what our driver's licenses should look like."

Tenth amendment? You think Washington cares about the tenth amendment? If Joe Bonham, a semi-moderate liberal, doesn't care about the tenth amendment then why would the (far more) liberals in Washington care?

The problem with the drivers license is that you have to pass a test and pay. Any ID card needs to be free in order not to alienate the "poor and elderly" (or minorities).

garhkal
03-12-2013, 06:44 PM
Try opening a bank account without one.

Don't i know it.. My mother had one durig her time married to my father and when she worked up in maine. After the divorce she was not told anything about it going away, nor during her return stay in england.. 5 yrs ago when i brought her back here from the UK to live with me, we checked and though her social is STILL in system, cause she is retired officially (over the 62 age bracket, and therefore by the SSA can''t work) she was not reissued a card with the # on.. and when we tried to open an account for her, there was an issue cause the SSA had 'flagged it'.

efmbman
03-12-2013, 08:52 PM
This is a terrible idea.


If it ain't broke...

Hmmm... well here's a decent reason:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/03/11/cincinnati-poll-worker-charged-with-voting-half-dozen-times-in-november/

Damn sure if this was happening after a Republican got in the White House it would be all over the news. Seems broke to me. Since it happened, wouldn't it be reasonable to consider how many did the same without getting caught?

Banned
03-12-2013, 09:23 PM
Hmmm... well here's a decent reason:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/03/11/cincinnati-poll-worker-charged-with-voting-half-dozen-times-in-november/

Damn sure if this was happening after a Republican got in the White House it would be all over the news. Seems broke to me. Since it happened, wouldn't it be reasonable to consider how many did the same without getting caught?

People both Republican and Democrat have been caught cheating in the last election... and yet they were still caught, and there is no evidence to suggest this is a widespread occurance.

sandsjames
03-13-2013, 11:26 AM
People both Republican and Democrat have been caught cheating in the last election... and yet they were still caught, and there is no evidence to suggest this is a widespread occurance.

I love how the argument is always "It's not widespread". So if it's not widespread we don't need to worry about it? It's only illegal if a majority do it, right?

Banned
03-13-2013, 04:17 PM
I love how the argument is always "It's not widespread". So if it's not widespread we don't need to worry about it? It's only illegal if a majority do it, right?

Its a pain in the ass to cheat and vote multiple times, and there's serious consequences for it - including possible jail time.

So no, its up to you to find evidence if you think we should fuck up the system to fix an imaginary problem.

sandsjames
03-13-2013, 04:25 PM
Its a pain in the ass to cheat and vote multiple times, and there's serious consequences for it - including possible jail time.

So no, its up to you to find evidence if you think we should fuck up the system to fix an imaginary problem.

It's a pain in the ass to hire a hitman to kill ones wife, there is possible jail time, and it's not that widespread. No need to worry about stopping people from doing it.

AJBIGJ
03-13-2013, 08:30 PM
We already have a national ID card.

This is a point, if not the point, worthy of additional emphasis. If this "National ID Card" idea was such a fantastic problem solver, then why have the localized equivalents at the state level not even provided a comprehensive solution even for their own situations? This is the whole point of Federalism at its finest, let each state experiment with their own localized solutions to the challenges they face and if they come up with a workable solution, the rest are free to adopt similar tactics (via popular vote in their state legislatures) to address their own challenges. Yet I'm pretty darn certain every state in the union has government issued ID cards. Whether it be voter fraud, illegal immigration or what-not I know of very few that have comprehensively delivered what this conceptual "National ID Card" is propagandized to potentially deliver. Even those that appear to "deliver on these promises" to an extent it is fair to ask whether it's the results of legislative measures in place or by factors entirely unrelated to effective legislation (such as geographic location or economic situational information).

I see this "National ID Card" idea as precisely adding one thing we do not currently experience today, the additional overhead that the newly managed federal program would require to establish the infrastructure required to implement such a program, along with the accompanying additional cost that would go hand-in-hand with this entirely redundant and completely ineffectual piece of legislative conceptual tripe. I for one tend to believe that "Conservatism" in its original definition stands behind the principles that reduce Federal Government overthrow of the State institutions and that reduces the burden to the taxpayer. I'll throw my hat with any individual who seeks similar ends, even if not for similar reasons.

This piece of garbage idea provided under this forum header proves that there are such thing as stupid questions to ask.

garhkal
03-14-2013, 04:30 AM
People both Republican and Democrat have been caught cheating in the last election... and yet they were still caught, and there is no evidence to suggest this is a widespread occurance.

And how many times must it occur for you to consider it a problem joe?? 100? 1000000??