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View Full Version : Troops say proposed UCMJ change unfair in prostitution-legal Germany



CrustySMSgt
11-18-2012, 01:01 PM
Interesting story... Seems like a valid point. I can see where enforcement where prostitution is illegal, but under these circumstances (or similiary, at a "ranch" in Nevada) where the industry is regulated at there is less a chance that human trafficing is involved, what rational does the gov't have for prohibitting a legal activity?

The counter argument of a parallel to drug use where legal is apples and oranges; drug use is illegal because of the physical effects, not because it is "immoral".


By Jessica Inigo
Stars and Stripes
Published: September 26, 2004
RHEIN-MAIN AIR BASE, Germany — Troops stationed in Germany are seeing red over the Pentagon’s proposal to add an anti-prostitution charge to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and it’s not just the glow from the local red light district.

Military personnel and their families on Rhein Main Air Base, only minutes from one of the largest red light districts in the world, are angered by the Department of Defense announcement to change the UCMJ. Those interviewed largely agree that Germany is not the place to enforce such a law.

Unlike other overseas military installations across the world where sex trade and human trafficking runs rampant, in Germany, prostitution is legal. There are licensed brothels, called Eros Center, where working girls can rent their own rooms for the day. There are no madames.



http://www.stripes.com/news/troops-say-proposed-ucmj-change-unfair-in-prostitution-legal-germany-1.24513

efmbman
11-18-2012, 03:09 PM
When I clicked the link to the story, I was suprised that the date is 26 SEP 2004. We you aware this story was 8 years old?

CrustySMSgt
11-18-2012, 03:13 PM
When I clicked the link to the story, I was suprised that the date is 26 SEP 2004. We you aware this story was 8 years old?

DAMN... no, I missed that! It was on the current "most read" links on the Stars & Stripes webpage, so I didn't even look at the date. :sorry

MACHINE666
11-19-2012, 11:14 AM
DAMN... no, I missed that! It was on the current "most read" links on the Stars & Stripes webpage, so I didn't even look at the date. :sorry

This still brings up a valid (but overlooked) point. How can the military say that one act is 'moral' (i.e., the killing of a government-sanctioned enemy), yet another act is considered 'immoral' (i.e. prostitution) in countries where it is legal and regulated.

I'm willing to bet the number of troops who claim PTSD from getting some pussy are ZERO.

Rusty Jones
11-19-2012, 12:16 PM
You know, I actually thought long and hard about this. It's my understanding that from the Victorian Era all the way up until the 1950's, married women generally didn't have sex unless it was to reproduce. At that time, men using the services of prostitutes was pretty normal. Back then, no one thought any less of a man for paying for sex.

Now, paying for sex is the major taboo. For men now, it’s all about getting it any way you can; as long as you're not paying for it. So now, here are the results of that: When I go into a store, it's always the fattest, loudest, most unhygienic women that have multiple children with them that they cannot keep under control. Many women today simply have no class. They'll behave a certain way, and have absolutely no shame. Why? Because they're still going to get some dick, regardless. I remember when I got out of the Navy, and was flat broke, I went to go donate plasma; and saw an overweight woman with hairy legs, and then watched a dude STILL hit on her!

Oh, and from my observation (i.e., this is purely anecdotal), most women under the age of 40 can't cook. Male Generation X'ers are to blame for this, as they started learning how to cook in order to impress the ladies; and now, men are stuck with the duties. Women can't cook anymore, because they don't have to.

These are all results. Men view paying for sex with a decent looking prostitute to be uber shameful; but have no problem sticking their dicks into a female Jabba the Hut.

Men are now "working" for sex; as I illustrated with the cooking thing. I remember one woman I dated expecting me to paint her tool shed and rake her yard; and threatened to withhold sex from me if I didn't do it. She was shocked that I declined, and then went on about how other men did it for her.

And if other men did it for her, I wouldn't be surprised. I imagine that back in the 1940's, it would be "fuck you, I'm going to the street corner."

"John-shaming" - and the outlawing of prostitution - is what led to "Pussy Power," in my opinion.

I've only paid for sex once - two chicks. That was solely for the purpose of getting a threesome under my belt. While other dudes are sitting there wondering what it's like, pestering their girlfriends and ruining their relationships by begging her to have a threesome, or getting disappointed that the bisexual girl they pursued and got doesn't do threesomes and isn't the meal ticket that they'd hoped for; they could easily kill ALL of that once and for all, if they got the fuck over their pride and shelled out the cash.

But... as long as a man doesn't have the means to get pussy whenever and wherever he wants, pussy will rule him. Somehow, I think that that's why most women want prostitution to stay illegal.

DarkHeart
11-19-2012, 01:02 PM
Rusty, Sex is why men work. We may do more for it now than in the past (I doubt it, men have always been superior cooks), but in the end, everything a man does he does for sex.

Rusty Jones
11-19-2012, 01:12 PM
Rusty, Sex is why men work. We may do more for it now than in the past (I doubt it, men have always been superior cooks), but in the end, everything a man does he does for sex.

You ever had those times during your single days, where you just simply didn't want to be bothered with it? Did you quit your job?

What about gay men? The reason I bring that up is because, gay or straight, men like to fuck. Gay men are attracted to those who are as equally eager to fuck as they are. If what you were saying was true, gay men would never work.

Rusty Jones
11-19-2012, 01:24 PM
Oh, and by the way, some of the dudes I know who are getting far more pussy than most... don't work. Even in my late teens/early 20's, before I joined the Navy; I was freeloading off of women I was dating while not working.

DarkHeart
11-19-2012, 01:46 PM
You ever had those times during your single days, where you just simply didn't want to be bothered with it? Did you quit your job?

What about gay men? The reason I bring that up is because, gay or straight, men like to fuck. Gay men are attracted to those who are as equally eager to fuck as they are. If what you were saying was true, gay men would never work.

Not really. Yes its easier to find a hook up when your dating pool is as horny as you are, but you still have to attract someone and gay men are probably more competitive when it comes to "peacocking" than straight men. With some exceptions we tend to buy more expensive clothing, work out and/or diet regularly, cook, etc. We do pretty much the same nonsense that straights do. You work to find a mate and then you keep working to maintain that relationship. Personally I think men continue to work and strive for more (wealth, status, etc) even though they may have a mate, because they are still trying to impress the oposite (or same in my case) sex. This is all subconscious by the way. Humans aren't monogamus by nature, so we are in a constant state of trying to impress someone. Society is the way it is because men want to bang, it can all be traced back to banging.

DarkHeart
11-19-2012, 01:51 PM
Oh, and by the way, some of the dudes I know who are getting far more pussy than most... don't work. Even in my late teens/early 20's, before I joined the Navy; I was freeloading off of women I was dating while not working.

An anomaly easily explained. Some people are stupid.

A recent study (I'll find you a link if you want) found that over the past 2,000 years, human intelligence has been on a stedy decline. It could be that stupidity is a winning trait in the natural selection of the human species. A terrifying thought. The Wallmart people do seem to be spreading.

garhkal
11-19-2012, 09:11 PM
Rusty, Sex is why men work. We may do more for it now than in the past (I doubt it, men have always been superior cooks), but in the end, everything a man does he does for sex.

Whether its paying a hooker, geting a pricy meal, movie and jewelry, guys always pay for it.

DarkHeart
11-20-2012, 05:06 PM
Whether its paying a hooker, geting a pricy meal, movie and jewelry, guys always pay for it.

An interesting twist, men don't pay hookers for sex. We pay them to leave.

USN - Retired
11-20-2012, 05:34 PM
I can guess what some of the responses will be to this thread by those who oppose prostitution, so I will provide my rebuttal to those responses now in order to save time.

First anticipated response: Prostitution is illegal because prostitutes are abused and mistreated.
My rebuttal:
(1) Prostitution is illegal; therefore, that profession is run by criminals. Criminals usually don’t treat people well. Furthermore, the police are the enemy of prostitutes. Prostitutes who are abused and mistreated can not count on the police for support.
(2) Domestic violence occurs in marriages. Some people, especially radical feminists, would have us believe that the percentage of married women who are abused by their husbands is quite high. If we are really serious about ending all domestic violence against women, shouldn’t we also outlaw the institution of marriage?

Second anticipated response: Prostitution is illegal because it might damage marriages.
My rebuttal:
(1) If we are trying to protect marriages, then why isn’t adultery illegal ( in the civilian world)?
(2) If we are trying to protect marriages, then why do we have unilateral no-fault divorce?
(3) If we are trying to protect marriages, then why is it so easy to file for a divorce?

Third anticipated response: Prostitution is illegal because prostitutes spread STDs (including HIV)
My rebuttal:
(1) If we were really serious about stopping STDs, then wouldn’t we outlaw all forms of promiscuous behavior. STDs is not a problem related only to prostitution.
(2) In places where prostitution is legal (i.e. Nevada), prostitutes tend to practice safe sex.

Fourth anticipated response: Prostitution is illegal because prostitutes are women who are forced into the profession.
My rebuttal:
(1) How many of the legal prostitutes in Nevada are being forced to work as prostitutes? If prostitution is made legal, then it can be regulated. It is very hard to force some one to work in an industry that is regulated.

Fifth anticipated response: Legalizing prostitution will significantly damage our culture and our society.
My rebuttal:
(1) How would legalized prostitution cause any more damage to our culture and our society than unilateral no-fault divorce, promiscuous behavior, strip clubs, and hard core porn?

Sixth anticipated response: Legalized prostitution would be a horrible career choice for women.
My rebuttal:
(1) I agree. Is that our decision to make for all women? Who among us has the right to make that decision for ALL women? Many people in our country consider the military to be a horrible career choice.
(2) By legalizing prostitution, it will be easier for the government to offer services to women who desire to leave that profession.

Seventh anticipated response: No woman would want to be a prostitute.
My rebuttal:
(1) Some women do choose to be prostitutes. Google Brooke Taylor.
(2) No woman ever dreams of being a waitress or a maid. Should it be illegal to employ a woman as a waitress or maid?

Pullinteeth
11-20-2012, 05:53 PM
This still brings up a valid (but overlooked) point. How can the military say that one act is 'moral' (i.e., the killing of a government-sanctioned enemy), yet another act is considered 'immoral' (i.e. prostitution) in countries where it is legal and regulated.

I'm willing to bet the number of troops who claim PTSD from getting some pussy are ZERO.

The claim is that bangin hookers supports human trafficking...kinda like smokin pot supports terrorism?

AJBIGJ
11-20-2012, 06:22 PM
It will probably get shoved into Article 125 along with all other sex acts and is generally ignored when put to practice.

garhkal
11-20-2012, 09:43 PM
I can guess what some of the responses will be to this thread by those who oppose prostitution, so I will provide my rebuttal to those responses now in order to save time.

First anticipated response: Prostitution is illegal because prostitutes are abused and mistreated.
My rebuttal:
(1) Prostitution is illegal; therefore, that profession is run by criminals. Criminals usually don’t treat people well. Furthermore, the police are the enemy of prostitutes. Prostitutes who are abused and mistreated can not count on the police for support.
(2) Domestic violence occurs in marriages. Some people, especially radical feminists, would have us believe that the percentage of married women who are abused by their husbands is quite high. If we are really serious about ending all domestic violence against women, shouldn’t we also outlaw the institution of marriage?

Very true USN. Also as we see in several other threads, mistreatment is not limited to prostitutes, spouses and Girl friends also are mistreated (so too are husbands/boyfriends). So cause something may cause mistreatment is no reason to stop it, unless you also stop it for all other things.



Second anticipated response: Prostitution is illegal because it might damage marriages.
My rebuttal:
(1) If we are trying to protect marriages, then why isn’t adultery illegal ( in the civilian world)?
(2) If we are trying to protect marriages, then why do we have unilateral no-fault divorce?
(3) If we are trying to protect marriages, then why is it so easy to file for a divorce?

And with the recent redefinition of marriage, to ME it looks like we no longer care about the definition of marriage, and so why protect it.



Third anticipated response: Prostitution is illegal because prostitutes spread STDs (including HIV)
My rebuttal:
(1) If we were really serious about stopping STDs, then wouldn’t we outlaw all forms of promiscuous behavior. STDs is not a problem related only to prostitution.
(2) In places where prostitution is legal (i.e. Nevada), prostitutes tend to practice safe sex.

I have known several females who were "ladies of the night".. even a knob job being bare is rare to come across, compared to couples just hooking up at the local bar. So from my perception they are more Safe sex friendly than the common person.



Fourth anticipated response: Prostitution is illegal because prostitutes are women who are forced into the profession.
My rebuttal:
(1) How many of the legal prostitutes in Nevada are being forced to work as prostitutes? If prostitution is made legal, then it can be regulated. It is very hard to force some one to work in an industry that is regulated.

While i agree there are plenty of women forced into the sex trade as slaves, that does not (not should it 'paint:) all women in the industry as sex slaves. Which is imo one of the bigger issues i have with the way the Press has portrayed it. When in Mayport, 4 of the girls in the area i stayed out in town for 3 weeks were hookers by night, college students by day, and their hooking was used as a way to help out pay the bills.. THAT was their choice. same with plenty of other ladies. (like you showed for nevada).



Fifth anticipated response: Legalizing prostitution will significantly damage our culture and our society.
My rebuttal:
(1) How would legalized prostitution cause any more damage to our culture and our society than unilateral no-fault divorce, promiscuous behavior, strip clubs, and hard core porn?

Especially since most of that porn is not even made in the states but is easily viewable here.



Sixth anticipated response: Legalized prostitution would be a horrible career choice for women.
My rebuttal:
(1) I agree. Is that our decision to make for all women? Who among us has the right to make that decision for ALL women? Many people in our country consider the military to be a horrible career choice.
(2) By legalizing prostitution, it will be easier for the government to offer services to women who desire to leave that profession.

Plus by legalizing it, they can
A) Tax it
B) license it, so that means those getting licenses get checked out (both medically and legally)
C) Can be a great reducer for underage girls getting into the biz.
D) Due to it being legal, gives both the "Johns" and the gals, protection.



Seventh anticipated response: No woman would want to be a prostitute.
My rebuttal:
(1) Some women do choose to be prostitutes. Google Brooke Taylor.
(2) No woman ever dreams of being a waitress or a maid. Should it be illegal to employ a woman as a waitress or maid?

See my comment above for the 4 in mayport.


The claim is that bangin hookers supports human trafficking...kinda like smokin pot supports terrorism?

Which i can agree it CAN support it in many overseas areas, cause of the preponderance for those ladies TO be human trafficed, but take Germany or holland, where its legal (or nevada), there are a lot less trafficed people there. So banning it cause the person you get with MAY be a trafficed person is to me akin to shutting the barn door after the horse has bolted.

sharkhunter
03-26-2013, 11:01 PM
I was stationed in Spangdahlem AB, Germany when this article was published and I even responded back to column. I was a young A1C at the time, but now that I'm a mature SSgt, my view has changed (somewhat). The issue that can arise...does visiting a brothel or having a prostitute (legal or illegal) present a good military image? And if you are caught (again, whether its legal or not), what can of personal character does that show to your First Shirt or CC? Even worse, what if you were married and caught?

RobotChicken
03-26-2013, 11:41 PM
:spy Was just reading that last night,was going to post on it....anyway; there are several ways to look at it. For instance be 'Cooped up'(pun intended) on a 'bird farm'(pun intended) for 8 months with only 7 days on the Beach doing 12hr plus days 7 days a week and for non flight deck types not seeing daylight for weeks gets old. Then the average age onboard is 21yrs and fresh meat pilots not much more..it gets kinda crazy. That was my Navy..now they have females onboard so 'mums the word' on how they deal with it! Now with all these Captains,Col.,Gens, etc getting caught with their 'short arm' misplaced in the ranks below them makes you wonder what else they have been down to besides(pun again). Just IMO of course, and do not try this abroad. (pun intended) :smokin

Pullinteeth
03-29-2013, 03:08 PM
I was stationed in Spangdahlem AB, Germany when this article was published and I even responded back to column. I was a young A1C at the time, but now that I'm a mature SSgt, my view has changed (somewhat). The issue that can arise...does visiting a brothel or having a prostitute (legal or illegal) present a good military image? And if you are caught (again, whether its legal or not), what can of personal character does that show to your First Shirt or CC? Even worse, what if you were married and caught?

What kind of military image does it present when you visit a bar or a liquor store? Should we ban military members from those as well? What kind of military image does it present for military members to go to WIC or their food stamps office? Should be ban them from going there as well? I think first Sgts and commanders have more pressing issues than who you choose to bang... If you are married? That is YOUR problem not mine.

garhkal
04-01-2013, 01:35 AM
Agreed. There are a lot of things we legally do that can be considered a bad image.. IMO does not mean they should be banned.

MACHINE666
04-01-2013, 06:23 PM
I was stationed in Spangdahlem AB, Germany when this article was published and I even responded back to column. I was a young A1C at the time, but now that I'm a mature SSgt, my view has changed (somewhat). The issue that can arise...does visiting a brothel or having a prostitute (legal or illegal) present a good military image? And if you are caught (again, whether its legal or not), what can of personal character does that show to your First Shirt or CC? Even worse, what if you were married and caught?

If your stupid ass is dumb enough to go visit the Venus Bar (aptly located between Spangdahlem and Bitburg Air Base in the Eiffel Community) wearing your PT gear or ABUs, then you're a bigger idiot if you get caught by some First Shirt or OSI douchebag!

To piggyback off of Pullinteeth's post, who made people like you the morality police? What's so 'good' about killing people, whether you do it with an M-4 rifle, a sniper rifle, or an F-16? How's that for "good military image"?

The bottom line is that people need to fuck, just as much as they need to breathe air, eat and sleep. The DoD is stupid to think that people can just turn off their libido like the flip of a switch, when they deploy, go TDY, or PCS. Instead, they should be smart the way they used to be back in the day: Public Health does checks on bars and brothels which they find meet health standards, and let the troops do the rest if they please. While there will always be the human trafficking element, in countries like Germany and the Netherlands, the military can always work with the Polizei to ensure our GIs are going to places which comply fully with host nation laws. They can always place an off-limits sign to the establishments which don't wanna play ball....kinda the way they do already with off-base businesses, night clubs, and vendors who just don't give a damn.

I blame the stupidity of the military on people with your sentiments.

RobotChicken
04-01-2013, 06:30 PM
:spyGo get'em 'Machine666' You the Man!! :lol