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View Full Version : Army getting rid of the ASU already?



Creaminess
09-25-2012, 01:39 AM
Really? The mandatory possession date of the ASU isn't even here, and now they're talking about getting rid of it already. I'm tired of having to spend money on uniforms and not getting a clothing allowance for it (yes, I'm an officer). You know what, Army? If you change to ANOTHER dress uniform, you can GIVE it to me this time. Make up your mind on a decent uniform that people want instead of ignoring us and then changing your minds later. Make the right decision the first time.

F4CrewChick
09-25-2012, 02:10 AM
I guess they are going to change to an all-service multicam which seems a good idea. There might be some leeway given because of the sudden switch. If not, just think of it this way, the multicam is a much better uniform.

Creaminess
09-25-2012, 03:23 AM
I guess they are going to change to an all-service multicam which seems a good idea. There might be some leeway given because of the sudden switch. If not, just think of it this way, the multicam is a much better uniform.

ASU=Army Service Uniform, our dress uniform. You're talking about utility uniforms.

Rusty Jones
09-25-2012, 11:52 AM
I was Navy, so take it for what it's worth:

The problem with the Army uniforms in general is that they have too much shit on them. Bages, patches, ribbons, cords; as if it's a damn Boy Scout uniform.

At least, with the Blues, it wasn't like that. Of course, with the phasing out of the Greens and replacing them with the blues, the asshats in specific branches of the Army bitched and moaned and wanted to keep the things that made them look different from the other branches of the Army on their blues. Thus, Airborne types get to wear boots with the ASU and tuck their pants in; and berets are worn with it.

Sad, because the blues were the one uniform that could stand against the Marine Corps blues. But, it's like, Soldiers wanted to give that up since they seem to hate service-wide uniformity.

The ONLY change to the uniform that I thought was good was taking the gold stripe off of the trousers for non-NCO's, and making them earn it upon becoming an NCO. Other than that, get rid of unit badges and pins, get rid of boots, and get rid of berets. Another change that should be made is that the belt around the coat worn by ceremonial units should be required for everyone.

And another change - don't make this the standard issue dress uniform. The Greens were ugly. The Army should bring back the Pinks & Greens like they had during the World Wars. Issue all Soldiers that, and then blue trousers, white shirts, and blue service cap. The blue coat can be optional. Just like in the Marine Corps.

MisterBen
09-25-2012, 01:31 PM
I agree with Rusty about the Army uniform looking like a Christmas tree and a big consensus amongst soldiers is to revert to the WWII uniforms since we would like to honor the greatest generation by wearing the uniforms they wore.

https://surveys.natick.army.mil/Surveys/asu.nsf/welcome?openform

That is the survey and it has selections for changing the white shirt to tan and khaki. Many soldiers suggested to take the shoulder boards off for enlisted and put the ranks back on the sleeves and I agree with that. Also, get rid of that ludicrious CSIB and go back to patches.

Keep the blues for formal wear and soldiers are willing to handle the costs of the way it was before.

Also, stop with multicam being the same uniform for all the services because you just wore it once during an interlude lol.

I wear it daily and even though it is better than UCP; it does not solve the issue of suitable camouflage for all terrains. That is why the US Army is considering US4CES camo which is similar to MARPAT and NWU Type III/AOR.

Creaminess
09-25-2012, 02:42 PM
I was Navy, so take it for what it's worth:

The problem with the Army uniforms in general is that they have too much shit on them. Bages, patches, ribbons, cords; as if it's a damn Boy Scout uniform.

Definitely agree 1000%. I took the survey a week or so ago and selected the option to SEW on the combat patch like on the greens, as well as sewing on the unit patch. I'd say if they don't want the unit patch on it, then that's fine. But there's already enough crap to pin onto the uniform; the patches should not have become badges. I don't have any tabs, but I say for those who do, those should be sewn on as well instead of the little pin-on tabs.

I also agree with bringing back the vintage uniforms. Isn't that what most surveyed wanted when they selected a replacement for the greens in the first place? Yet the Army, in its infinite wisdom, failed to listen.

Oh, and what's with the timing of this idea to do yet ANOTHER major uniform change for something that the majority of Soldiers rarely wear anyway? Is it that important at this point in time to do that? Get through the drawdown, get through the handover of Afghanistan to their own people, stabilize the force, worry about all the IMPORTANT things first.

ArmyJedi
09-25-2012, 03:07 PM
I have seen uniforms come and go and while I dread changing again, I think the Army made a mistake with the ASUs. I do not mean to infer that we should "copy" any other services, however, one size/uniform does not fit all occasions. Keep the pants and add a khaki short and long sleeve shirt to wear as class B's. For the short sleeve shirt, use the same design that the navy uses which is not meant to wear with a tie, looks way more professional with a collar that is meant to lay down and the shirt has permanent creases and is thick enough to support the weight of awards etc. Take our jacket and put a mandarin collar on it so that it has no resemblance to a buisiness suit, no more shirt and tie with the jacket. No longer would Soldiers have to left and right justify/allign their awards and badges, everything would be centered over a pocket and look more professional. The US Army Band has this jacket minus pockets and it looks very much like a uniform made for Soldiers and would be a fitting way to honor our heritage. Keep the stetson, maroon, green, and tan berets for those that earn them and dump the black beret for a service cap for everyone else. If we have to stick with a less formal uniform then go the route the Marines have with a belted jacket in a Army-specific color.

As a 1SG, I would designate more days where my Soldiers are in a class B uniform if it was more professional looking and could be a good office uniform as the Army used to for non-field/motorpool days.

MisterBen
09-25-2012, 03:08 PM
I am with you Creaminess.

Here is the front page

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/signalwarrant/Stuff/armytimes_zps867645ba.jpg

F4CrewChick
09-25-2012, 04:13 PM
ASU=Army Service Uniform, our dress uniform. You're talking about utility uniforms.My bad--sorry creamy--As AF, I'm so used to switching uniforms, it became meaningless. I do hope you get what you want in this regard. Who knows? The Army might help defray the costs if they do choose I new ASU.

soglejr
09-25-2012, 05:12 PM
This is why Marlow White has been in business for 100+ years.

fivepointnine
09-26-2012, 07:47 AM
what is wrong with the current class A's? They are distinctly "Army" and have been used since about '54, plus everyone already has them! I would not mind the WWII style either.

McFailsauce
09-26-2012, 06:25 PM
This is why Marlow White has been in business for 100+ years.
----

Good point. Just bought a brand new set of ASUs from them...

btw, the "Pinks and Greens" were only worn by officers. Enlisted guys wore the standard issue OD green wool dress/field uniform.

CON50582
10-01-2012, 01:22 PM
I was Navy, so take it for what it's worth:

Of course, with the phasing out of the Greens and replacing them with the blues, the asshats in specific branches of the Army bitched and moaned and wanted to keep the things that made them look different from the other branches of the Army on their blues. Thus, Airborne types get to wear boots with the ASU and tuck their pants in; and berets are worn with it.



I guess I'm one of those hats that likes tradition.

I'm tired of filling out surveys no one reads. If I remember correctly last time I already put khaki with a OD jacket. I think the khakis that went away in the mid 80s with a OD green jacket would be sharp. Please don't put black or gold braids on our pants.

ChaplainC
10-03-2012, 07:00 AM
I find it interesting when people say they like tradition but reject the ASU. Given that the ASU is an imitation of the cavalry uniforms of the 1800's and the "old west era" etc. I rather like that aspect of the uniforms. Personally I think they look a heck of a lot better than the Chair Force uniforms, and IMHO anyone who actually advocates for a belt around the outside of the jacket needs to seriously get a life, or get their head shrunk, or something. Those things look horrible, are a total nightmare to deal with, and serve absolutely no purpose what so ever! Why in the world would you want that thing? On top of that you are more likely that they will shoot for a cloth belt and sash like the Air Force tried... Let me tell you, that went over as well as the blue digitals they tried to go for as well!

Now change to a new uni, keep it the same, I really could care less. I personally hate WHITE in a uniform, it looks bad, and I just want to ask the guy to bring me a freakin Sprite! Plus the dang things turn brown easily, or what ever other color dinner happens to be that day because invariably someone always manages to get it on themselves.

I believe that the Army wears way too much crap on the uniform, and a simpler ASU would be nice given how much they wanted to simplify the ACU way back when. I also happen to like the collarless look the Marines have, and others have had that in the past as well, but I really do not care much. Again at least the ASU has four pockets rather than two or three, and they are not trying to look like a business suit. I dislike the shirt and tie look, and I dislike the collar and having to shift the salad all around because it looks lame IMHO. We are the world's most powerful army, the least we could do is try to look the part.

Long and short of it, I like the ASU's traditional styling, but I do not care for the tie and I couldn't give a crap if they keep it or not. I am never going to go to work in the Pentagon, so I will not have to wear it every day anyhow.

Rusty Jones
10-03-2012, 12:55 PM
I find it interesting when people say they like tradition but reject the ASU. Given that the ASU is an imitation of the cavalry uniforms of the 1800's and the "old west era" etc. I rather like that aspect of the uniforms.

Bullshit. The Army can say this until it's blue in the face, but it's not convincing anyone. Take the common sense approach to this. Get a picture of someone in Civil War Era Union uniform and put it next to a picture of someone in the ASU's. They look NOTHING alike. Today's uniform is nothing but Army greens in a different color.


Personally I think they look a heck of a lot better than the Chair Force uniforms, and IMHO anyone who actually advocates for a belt around the outside of the jacket needs to seriously get a life, or get their head shrunk, or something. Those things look horrible, are a total nightmare to deal with, and serve absolutely no purpose what so ever! Why in the world would you want that thing? On top of that you are more likely that they will shoot for a cloth belt and sash like the Air Force tried... Let me tell you, that went over as well as the blue digitals they tried to go for as well!

Look at the Marine Corps dress blues. They have a white belt around their jacket for enlisted. Compare it to the ASU, and you'll see that the lack of the belt is one of the many things that make the ASU look like shit compared to the Marine Corps blues.

MisterBen
10-03-2012, 01:03 PM
Even Chaplains are exempt from a tongue-lashing from Rusty :)

ChaplainC
10-03-2012, 06:49 PM
Even Chaplains are exempt from a tongue-lashing from Rusty :)

Haha, I do not mind, people get out of hand all over the place. What ever right?

Hey if they want to go with the belt for just the E's I am ok with that, but I still think you are nuts. They look like some big gay fashion accessory to wear, I would rather wear the Officer's CAPE and a Wheel Cap than that belt. :)

Kind regards

Rusty Jones
10-04-2012, 11:29 AM
Whoa, you guys aren't even in the Rep Wars forum. Who negged you two, if you know? What were the messages?

CORNELIUSSEON
10-13-2012, 09:24 PM
In the first place, the Scout Uniforms are based on British Army uniforms, whereas our current Green, White and Blue uniforms are based on German uniforms. The point is that neither is original.

This is the first time that the Army has asked the opinion of its junior members on the subject of Uniforms, and I’ll bet that they are ruing the day they ever did. Why? Because all of a sudden the junior Troops are questioning the wisdom of the Seniors, and they are doing so completely in a vacuum. The only reason why the issue has come up again is probably because they want to put the whole subject to rest, and they recognize that the Junior Troops won't be satisfied until they put their full Two Cents in.

Once that is done, they will finish implementing the Blue ASU, tell all and sundry to button their lips, and life in the service will continue.

Incidentally, uniforms have always been gaudy when compared with civilian dress; the more gaudy the better.

Rizzo77
10-14-2012, 12:42 AM
First off, I liked the green uniform. I wore it for 20 years, and was just fine with it.

I also purchased my own set of dress blues; I looked smokin' hot in the blues, so that might color my opinion. It's over, it's done, the end has begun. If you listen to fools, the mob rules.

Now that the blues are the ASU, we just need to return the gold stripe to ALL pants. It is fucking stupid to make an officer uniform, anyway. Service stripes also need to be included. That gold trim looks great on the sleeves.

And quit fucking competing with the Marines; they win. Let it go.

Rizzo77
10-14-2012, 12:43 AM
First off, I liked the green uniform. I wore it for 20 years, and was just fine with it.

I also purchased my own set of dress blues; I looked smokin' hot in the blues, so that might color my opinion. It's over, it's done, the end has begun. If you listen to fools, the mob rules.

Now that the blues are the ASU, we just need to return the gold stripe to ALL pants. It is fucking stupid to make an officer uniform, anyway. Service stripes also need to be included. That gold trim looks great on the sleeves.

And quit fucking competing with the Marines; they win. Let it go.

CORNELIUSSEON
10-14-2012, 04:07 AM
First off, I liked the green uniform. I wore it for 20 years, and was just fine with it.

I also purchased my own set of dress blues; I looked smokin' hot in the blues, so that might color my opinion. It's over, it's done, the end has begun. If you listen to fools, the mob rules.

Now that the blues are the ASU, we just need to return the gold stripe to ALL pants. It is fucking stupid to make an officer uniform, anyway. Service stripes also need to be included. That gold trim looks great on the sleeves.

And quit fucking competing with the Marines; they win. Let it go.

Everyone will wear gold trouser stripes EXCEPT Specialist and below. A Gold on Blue version of the current Service Stripes and Overseas Bars are authorized for the Blue ASU. As for competing with the Marines, I agree with you, but not for the same reason. I am glad that we aren't competing with the Marine Corps because that was the lesson of getting rid of the Greens and the Whites, and killed the global schedule that prescribed just which Class A was authorized in which climate zone.

ECKSRAY
10-15-2012, 02:45 PM
If they do change or get rid of the ASU I hope "they" make the right decision this time. On my current assignment we are required to wear ASU's once a week. I work with all civilians and when I come in they always joke about delivering the mail or driving a bus. I always put an end to the jokes but it is frustrating (to say the least) that the Army puts us in something that even GS/DoD employees don't respect.

Creaminess
10-15-2012, 02:47 PM
If you listen to fools, the mob rules.

You get bonus points for the Sabbath reference. And if your "Rizzo" name is in any way affiliated with the Jerky Boys, you will be awarded even more points.

Rizzo77
10-15-2012, 03:37 PM
You get bonus points for the Sabbath reference. And if your "Rizzo" name is in any way affiliated with the Jerky Boys, you will be awarded even more points.

Frank Rizzo. He'll be calling soon.

Creaminess
10-15-2012, 07:01 PM
Frank Rizzo. He'll be calling soon.

Looking for Brett Weir?

Rizzo77
10-15-2012, 11:30 PM
Get Brett Weir I said!

ImpliedConsent
10-16-2012, 01:41 AM
Really? The mandatory possession date of the ASU isn't even here, and now they're talking about getting rid of it already. I'm tired of having to spend money on uniforms and not getting a clothing allowance for it (yes, I'm an officer). ... Make the right decision the first time.

Agreed. There used to be a thing as pride and tradition. I still have pride, but still working out that whole tradition thing. The uniform is a good part of tradition. I could care less what they do with BDU/ACU/OCP/next flavor or battle uniform, but dang, the garrison uniforms? Really? I went many, many years with that ugly green crap, the blue ASU is a step above, but too many accessories. Maybe modify the ASU instead of wholesale replace. Kill that CSIB, my CIB makes up for it. Maybe a sew-on FWS on the right shoulder. Whatever the changes, dang, stick with it.

MisterBen
10-16-2012, 11:07 AM
Agreed. There used to be a thing as pride and tradition. I still have pride, but still working out that whole tradition thing. The uniform is a good part of tradition. I could care less what they do with BDU/ACU/OCP/next flavor or battle uniform, but dang, the garrison uniforms? Really? I went many, many years with that ugly green crap, the blue ASU is a step above, but too many accessories. Maybe modify the ASU instead of wholesale replace. Kill that CSIB, my CIB makes up for it. Maybe a sew-on FWS on the right shoulder. Whatever the changes, dang, stick with it.

I agree with you sir. I hope they change that white color shirt and get rid of the CSIB.

Creaminess
10-16-2012, 05:31 PM
I agree with you sir. I hope they change that white color shirt and get rid of the CSIB.

I took the online survey and voted for a gray shirt and sew-on unit and combat patches.

onemaingun
11-08-2012, 04:07 AM
I think they dress uniform should have stayed greens, the new dress fatigue be multi-cam and return to black boots.

Banned
11-09-2012, 05:46 PM
We do NOT need black boots. I know sgt majors get a hard-on about shining boots, but no - that's a waste of time. As for me, I've never had black boots, Marines or Army - there's no sense in trying to learn now.

USMC0341
11-09-2012, 06:06 PM
We do NOT need black boots. I know sgt majors get a hard-on about shining boots, but no - that's a waste of time. As for me, I've never had black boots, Marines or Army - there's no sense in trying to learn now.

Looked sharp, but stupid in functionality; you go to the field, beat the shit out of them, get them wet, then expected to have them all pretty when you're back in garrison. Same a pressing and starching uniforms. If I could have my time spent on polishing boots and pressing cammies back, I would be going on one helluva vacation. Not to mention if you weren't in the field, you better have your cammies and boots squared away again after noon chow.

Shudder.....

CORNELIUSSEON
11-09-2012, 07:41 PM
We do NOT need black boots. I know sgt majors get a hard-on about shining boots, but no - that's a waste of time. As for me, I've never had black boots, Marines or Army - there's no sense in trying to learn now.

The changeover from Tanned (Black) boots to Suede boots started during Desert Storm in 1991. I was one of many who made the changeover at the first attempt, and still own my suede boots. The virtues of the changeover were as follows:

1. Suede boots don't need the break-in period that Tanned boots do.
2. Suede boots have a much longer utility period than Tanned boots (Mine are 21 Years old, and are still in perfect order).
3. Tanned boots are harder to clean. Suede boots only need a stiff wire brush and water in order to be cleaned.
4. Suede boots need no polishing, reducing the cost of maintenance.
5. Suede boots are easier to pack in a Duffle Bag since they aren't stiff like Tanned boots are.
6. Suede boots don't tire the legs during extended walking like Tanned boots do, since they aren't as stiff.

As to the issue of garrison vs. field wear, we would own an extra pair of Tanned boots that were kept in Garrison to meet the inspection requirements. The need for that extra pair of boots ceased to exist with the changeover.

MisterBen
11-10-2012, 06:40 AM
lol creaminess. I agree with Joe. I came in the 80s and took pride in shining my boots but when I received my tan ones in 2005; they feel great like I am walking in sneakers. They are harder to clean but they still get clean. Currently, I am using the ADS mountain boots in Afghanistan and love these too.

I do not want to return back to black boots. That will be the same BS that Corny will probably say about our current BATES high gloss shoes with the ASU. He probably still has his highly shined ones from the Vietnam War still in perfect order. :)

Corny, I respect that you are retired but I am someone that is still serving from the 80s and you have to let go of the past comparisons. Those are apples vs oranges now. And guess what? With today's tan boots, they break in much faster than the black one so your comment number 1 is not correct for today. I will also add that your number 6 comment is wrong too.

CORNELIUSSEON
11-10-2012, 03:55 PM
If you go and read what I wrote, you will see that I LIKE the Suede boots, and immediately disposed of my Tanned (Black) boots. If I was as retro as you assert, I would have never changed from the original Wool Fatigues we received in 1967, but - in fact - I went through several different Fatigue uniforms, including the original Wool, the replacement Cotton, the light-weight Jungle Fatigues, the original BDU, and finally the "Chocolate Chip" Desert BDU. We wore three different Fatigue Caps until we arrived at the Patrol Cap you now wear. We started with full color Patches, and switched to Camouflaged Patches in the middle of the Vietnam War. We started with two Summer uniforms: the Summer Green ASU and the Short Sleeve Khaki ASU, not to mention the Winter Green ASU. We had two hats for wear with the ASU: The Service Cap you still have, and the Forage Cap we could only wear when Deployed outside CONUS. You guys Bitch about being treated as guinea pigs while the Army goes through the various uniform changes, well, WAKE UP!!!! We were doing the guinea pig thing when you were in diapers, and we groused about it as well, but we groused amongst ourselves, never with earshot of the Senior Grades, because they would show up at one Morning Formation in the new uniform - both Officers and NCOs - and we would be expected to show up the following morning dressed like them. There would be no discussion as to whether or not we liked the switch - that was the job for the Senior Grades to decide - but there were occasional requests for comment from the Senior Grades that was when we would speak up. None of this would ever make it to the Press like it does today, except that the Army Times would announce the decision when it became official.

As to the stiffness of the boot, that means that the Seniors have already gone back one step because ours were like Glove Leather, and I'm looking at my pair as I write this. Incidentally, the crack about not wearing them since I retired, that isn't true. When I do things where they are a better choice than regular shoes, I wear them, and they fit like they were new, and are still supple, which the old Tanned (Black) boots would never be after this length of time. Finally, the first generation of Suede Boots were ALL "custom made", and purchased by their wearers, while the Army did its thing arranging a Contract for a "standard" suede boot. The result was a choice of wearing the "Issue" boot OR buying you own from several licensed manufacturers. Mine are a pair of the originals, which were manufactured and purchased in Saudi Arabia, and are modeled on the Black Leather boot we wore at the time, including the light plate the boot had between the Sole and the Upper to protect against being wounded if we stepped on buried stakes or other bobby traps. In other words, both boots were based on ground experience in Vietnam, and solved all of the problems we experienced with the World War Two era Black Boot (which was originally Brown when first designed) in the Vietnam environment.

So, stop whining about how the Seniors are making you try new uniform items - you aren't doing anything we didn't do, and we didn't do anything the Korea and earlier generations haven't done since the Revolutionary days.

Finally, I was reminded that the reason why we Retirees have been brought into the mix with the current generation of soldiers is precisely to make the point that there is continuity between the generations, and you still have much to learn from our experience - as we learned from the World War Two/Korea Generation.

I just got back from a cruise where I met several Retirees, Veterans, and currently serving troops, and the Ship gave us a room where we could discuss things. One of the currently serving guys was an E-7 Recruiter, and the subject moved to this forum. The type of discussions and the mood of this forum was compared to the Poop Chute dialog when we were on duty, and it was decided that the difference is that you actually have a venue where you can whine to your heart's content, which is a good thing - because the rest of the troops can ignore you and continue with their service lives. In our day, the Seniors would take note of your whine, and judge it in terms of the mental health of the troops as a whole, but they didn't go so far as to make actual decisions based on the substance of the whine as it appears to be happening today. So be it. I came back from the cruise sure that the barbs and arrows I receive here aren't representative of the mood of the Army as a whole, or even on any Unit basis. It's just the same old group of malcontents who don't like that the Army isn't doing things "their" way, and feel that there is nothing to learn from how things were done before they were around.

I will still be around - wherether or not you like it - and I will continue to have my say when I see fit. If you feel that I am wrong, that's fine, but don't expect me to see things your way just because you insist that I should.

Nuff said.

USMC0341
11-12-2012, 09:30 PM
lol creaminess. I agree with Joe. I came in the 80s and took pride in shining my boots but when I received my tan ones in 2005; they feel great like I am walking in sneakers. They are harder to clean but they still get clean. Currently, I am using the ADS mountain boots in Afghanistan and love these too.

I do not want to return back to black boots. That will be the same BS that Corny will probably say about our current BATES high gloss shoes with the ASU. He probably still has his highly shined ones from the Vietnam War still in perfect order. :)

Corny, I respect that you are retired but I am someone that is still serving from the 80s and you have to let go of the past comparisons. Those are apples vs oranges now. And guess what? With today's tan boots, they break in much faster than the black one so your comment number 1 is not correct for today. I will also add that your number 6 comment is wrong too.

You my friend, were just cornholed

USMC0341
11-12-2012, 09:43 PM
If you go and read what I wrote, you will see that I LIKE the Suede boots, and immediately disposed of my Tanned (Black) boots. If I was as retro as you assert, I would have never changed from the original Wool Fatigues we received in 1967, but - in fact - I went through several different Fatigue uniforms, including the original Wool, the replacement Cotton, the light-weight Jungle Fatigues, the original BDU, and finally the "Chocolate Chip" Desert BDU. We wore three different Fatigue Caps until we arrived at the Patrol Cap you now wear. We started with full color Patches, and switched to Camouflaged Patches in the middle of the Vietnam War. We started with two Summer uniforms: the Summer Green ASU and the Short Sleeve Khaki ASU, not to mention the Winter Green ASU. We had two hats for wear with the ASU: The Service Cap you still have, and the Forage Cap we could only wear when Deployed outside CONUS. You guys Bitch about being treated as guinea pigs while the Army goes through the various uniform changes, well, WAKE UP!!!! We were doing the guinea pig thing when you were in diapers, and we groused about it as well, but we groused amongst ourselves, never with earshot of the Senior Grades, because they would show up at one Morning Formation in the new uniform - both Officers and NCOs - and we would be expected to show up the following morning dressed like them. There would be no discussion as to whether or not we liked the switch - that was the job for the Senior Grades to decide - but there were occasional requests for comment from the Senior Grades that was when we would speak up. None of this would ever make it to the Press like it does today, except that the Army Times would announce the decision when it became official.

As to the stiffness of the boot, that means that the Seniors have already gone back one step because ours were like Glove Leather, and I'm looking at my pair as I write this. Incidentally, the crack about not wearing them since I retired, that isn't true. When I do things where they are a better choice than regular shoes, I wear them, and they fit like they were new, and are still supple, which the old Tanned (Black) boots would never be after this length of time. Finally, the first generation of Suede Boots were ALL "custom made", and purchased by their wearers, while the Army did its thing arranging a Contract for a "standard" suede boot. The result was a choice of wearing the "Issue" boot OR buying you own from several licensed manufacturers. Mine are a pair of the originals, which were manufactured and purchased in Saudi Arabia, and are modeled on the Black Leather boot we wore at the time, including the light plate the boot had between the Sole and the Upper to protect against being wounded if we stepped on buried stakes or other bobby traps. In other words, both boots were based on ground experience in Vietnam, and solved all of the problems we experienced with the World War Two era Black Boot (which was originally Brown when first designed) in the Vietnam environment.

So, stop whining about how the Seniors are making you try new uniform items - you aren't doing anything we didn't do, and we didn't do anything the Korea and earlier generations haven't done since the Revolutionary days.

Finally, I was reminded that the reason why we Retirees have been brought into the mix with the current generation of soldiers is precisely to make the point that there is continuity between the generations, and you still have much to learn from our experience - as we learned from the World War Two/Korea Generation.

I just got back from a cruise where I met several Retirees, Veterans, and currently serving troops, and the Ship gave us a room where we could discuss things. One of the currently serving guys was an E-7 Recruiter, and the subject moved to this forum. The type of discussions and the mood of this forum was compared to the Poop Chute dialog when we were on duty, and it was decided that the difference is that you actually have a venue where you can whine to your heart's content, which is a good thing - because the rest of the troops can ignore you and continue with their service lives. In our day, the Seniors would take note of your whine, and judge it in terms of the mental health of the troops as a whole, but they didn't go so far as to make actual decisions based on the substance of the whine as it appears to be happening today. So be it. I came back from the cruise sure that the barbs and arrows I receive here aren't representative of the mood of the Army as a whole, or even on any Unit basis. It's just the same old group of malcontents who don't like that the Army isn't doing things "their" way, and feel that there is nothing to learn from how things were done before they were around.

I will still be around - wherether or not you like it - and I will continue to have my say when I see fit. If you feel that I am wrong, that's fine, but don't expect me to see things your way just because you insist that I should.

Nuff said.

Bet those guys you cornered on the cruise wish they didn't get suckered into that room!

CorneliousSeon,

It's not about the bitching, it's about effectiveness in a combat environment; never have we had better input on the impact of gear choices in a combat environment than currently exists. We have been at war for over 11 years, our guys know what is worthless shit (Marine Corps pack choices for the first 5 years of the wars) and what works great.

I say the uniform and gear choices should be decided by a panel of combat tested service members from a rifleman on up.

MisterBen
11-13-2012, 12:39 PM
You my friend, were just cornholed

ooh it hurts; it hurts!! ;)

But seriously, I did enjoy his thesis. Retirement is great!

But I do agree about the whine. Problem is that the brass tries to fix the wrong crap or makes things worse when trying to fix it. It is like a wife that screams. We think that we are listening but we actually are not.

CORNELIUSSEON
11-24-2012, 12:07 AM
Bet those guys you cornered on the cruise wish they didn't get suckered into that room!

CorneliousSeon,

It's not about the bitching, it's about effectiveness in a combat environment; never have we had better input on the impact of gear choices in a combat environment than currently exists. We have been at war for over 11 years, our guys know what is worthless shit (Marine Corps pack choices for the first 5 years of the wars) and what works great.

I say the uniform and gear choices should be decided by a panel of combat tested service members from a rifleman on up.

The oldest guy in the room was in his 80s, and served in World War Two. Of course, we deferred to his seniority.

As to gear changes, I agree with you only in that you had 11 years to solve problems. The current series of wars is the first such series in American history where more than one generation went into combat against the same enemy, and the first time when it was possible to fix the kind of problems while still in combat. Remember, I spanned the period from Vietnam (1967) through Desert Storm (1990-91), and so the troops I served with in Desert Storm had experienced the equipment in service since Vietnam, and so was able to likewise tell those who were much younger than us what equipment was shitty, and what worked just fine. For example, we were the generation that transitioned from Jeeps to HumVees, and we told those that would listen that they had wasted their money because we saw that the HumVees had the same vulnerabilities that the Jeeps had, and they were much easier to hit while in motion than the Jeeps they replaced simply because they were larger than the Jeeps. So, our Truckmasters were able to advise the Regulars we had to deal with that if a HumVee got hit, don’t bother trying to repair it, just Red X it, and ship it back for scrap. As for Packs, we were the first generation that actually was issued a full sized pack (Desert Storm). For most of our existence, we were issued the Fanny Pack, and weren’t allowed to carry anything that couldn’t be slung across our body, or fit in the Fanny Pack. Why? Because the Korean War Generation was equipped that way, and they were still evaluating new equipment that would show up in time for Desert Storm. The Vietnam era equipment – by the way – was always considered as temporary until peace arrived, and it was decided which of those items to retain and which to do away with.

If they do with this upcoming peace what they did after Vietnam, then it will be the Peacetime Generation that will fix the current problems, so if you stay in long enough to become part of that group, then you will see the changes made, and – trust me – there still are things that need fixing. The HumVee needs to be scrapped altogether. The M-16 and its competitors need to be evaluated for a final choice. Oh, and just whose idea was it that you carry your rifle with the muzzle down? I will admit that you have us to blame for the top-mounted strap, but we still carried the rifle with the muzzle elevated. Why? Safety.

ChaplainC
11-27-2012, 03:56 PM
Interesting post Corneliusseon,

I believe that the muzzle of the weapon is down simply because it is the fastest way to bring the weapon into service. It has been proven many times that one can bring a weapon up and aim much faster than one can bring a weapon down and aim. Precious seconds...

As for the rest of it, very good thoughts and info. I personally do not see any vehicles out there that would fit the needs of the HMMWV better than it does itself. I agree that the jeeps would have done the job just as well, and the new unlimited jeep would likely be easy to modify to fit the same job as the HMMWV, but I do not see it as being able to do it better. Looking at the other countries, most of them just use Land Rovers for the job, which is no different than a jeep.

CORNELIUSSEON
11-27-2012, 04:59 PM
Interesting post Corneliusseon,

I believe that the muzzle of the weapon is down simply because it is the fastest way to bring the weapon into service. It has been proven many times that one can bring a weapon up and aim much faster than one can bring a weapon down and aim. Precious seconds...

As for the rest of it, very good thoughts and info. I personally do not see any vehicles out there that would fit the needs of the HMMWV better than it does itself. I agree that the jeeps would have done the job just as well, and the new unlimited jeep would likely be easy to modify to fit the same job as the HMMWV, but I do not see it as being able to do it better. Looking at the other countries, most of them just use Land Rovers for the job, which is no different than a jeep.

Thanks for the information.

Just so you know, the Land Rover was a deliberate copy of the original Jeep from 1947. Until then, the Brits used the Jeeps we provided to them during the war, and the Jeeps we left behind when we came home. The land rover included all of the positive components from the original Jeep, and improved the creature comforts. Both the Land Rover and the HumVee have one serious flaw not found in the Jeep: The original specifications for the Jeep required that two persons could manually lift the Jeep from one corner so that flats could be changed in the field without the need for Lifts or Ramps. You only needed to get a rock large enough or a log to support the raised side.

As to fulfilling the HMMWV Mandate, we expected that that mandate would result in a range of vehicles, NOT a single vehicle that could be modified to suit. I think that that is the central problem with the HumVee.

CORNELIUSSEON
11-28-2012, 11:28 PM
I need to find a way to prevent Corny from commenting on posts I originate.

The only reliable way would be for you to buy out the newspapers, and then reprogram the forum.

MisterBen
11-29-2012, 04:08 AM
The oldest guy in the room was in his 80s, and served in World War Two. Of course, we deferred to his seniority.

As to gear changes, I agree with you only in that you had 11 years to solve problems. The current series of wars is the first such series in American history where more than one generation went into combat against the same enemy, and the first time when it was possible to fix the kind of problems while still in combat. Remember, I spanned the period from Vietnam (1967) through Desert Storm (1990-91), and so the troops I served with in Desert Storm had experienced the equipment in service since Vietnam, and so was able to likewise tell those who were much younger than us what equipment was shitty, and what worked just fine. For example, we were the generation that transitioned from Jeeps to HumVees, and we told those that would listen that they had wasted their money because we saw that the HumVees had the same vulnerabilities that the Jeeps had, and they were much easier to hit while in motion than the Jeeps they replaced simply because they were larger than the Jeeps. So, our Truckmasters were able to advise the Regulars we had to deal with that if a HumVee got hit, don’t bother trying to repair it, just Red X it, and ship it back for scrap. As for Packs, we were the first generation that actually was issued a full sized pack (Desert Storm). For most of our existence, we were issued the Fanny Pack, and weren’t allowed to carry anything that couldn’t be slung across our body, or fit in the Fanny Pack. Why? Because the Korean War Generation was equipped that way, and they were still evaluating new equipment that would show up in time for Desert Storm. The Vietnam era equipment – by the way – was always considered as temporary until peace arrived, and it was decided which of those items to retain and which to do away with.

If they do with this upcoming peace what they did after Vietnam, then it will be the Peacetime Generation that will fix the current problems, so if you stay in long enough to become part of that group, then you will see the changes made, and – trust me – there still are things that need fixing. The HumVee needs to be scrapped altogether. The M-16 and its competitors need to be evaluated for a final choice. Oh, and just whose idea was it that you carry your rifle with the muzzle down? I will admit that you have us to blame for the top-mounted strap, but we still carried the rifle with the muzzle elevated. Why? Safety.

The only thing you do to make your point, is to bring up the Army of yesterday to today's issue. Well, the M-16 and Humvee is still here and when the UCP was fielded, Soldiers were giving input as well. How do I know? Because I was one of the Soldiers in 2005. But the brass just went with the UCP even though another pattern was better because it was simply digital.

Soldiers are just giving input on the ASU and PT uniform but when does input in the field always go in the way of the consensus? I do not know but I will bet on less. Just like DADT survey had proven.

It is a different Army now SSG and you are very clueless about it. So enjoy your conversations with your old vets. When you have served 20 active years like many of us have; then you will be in the same class of servicemember. ;)

CORNELIUSSEON
11-29-2012, 02:07 PM
The only thing you do to make your point, is to bring up the Army of yesterday to today's issue. Well, the M-16 and Humvee is still here and when the UCP was fielded, Soldiers were giving input as well. How do I know? Because I was one of the Soldiers in 2005. But the brass just went with the UCP even though another pattern was better because it was simply digital.

Soldiers are just giving input on the ASU and PT uniform but when does input in the field always go in the way of the consensus? I do not know but I will bet on less. Just like DADT survey had proven.

It is a different Army now SSG and you are very clueless about it. So enjoy your conversations with your old vets. When you have served 20 active years like many of us have; then you will be in the same class of servicemember. ;)

Yes, I know, each generation acts like it invented the wheel in their lifetime, and the following generations have to re-learn things all over again. Just file this discussion away for your retirement years, and take it out from time to time to remind yourself of what I said when the time comes for someone junior to you to tell you to "stick it where the sun don't shine".

Robert F. Dorr
12-08-2012, 11:15 PM
I agree with Rusty about the Army uniform looking like a Christmas tree and a big consensus amongst soldiers is to revert to the WWII uniforms since we would like to honor the greatest generation by wearing the uniforms they wore.

This is a great idea. It would also be great if the Army would ditch the three-letter abbreviations for military ranks. We lived without them until 1966.

CORNELIUSSEON
01-25-2013, 06:29 PM
I'm only junior to you in age, slappy.

In your dreams. Historically, Retirees are considered Senior in terms of their status, and in terms of the date they achieved their status, TIS and TIG within the Retired status continues to run.

CORNELIUSSEON
01-25-2013, 06:35 PM
Corny couldn't handle 20 years on active duty. There are things we can learn from the past, but this guy refuses to come into the 21st century.

Actually, I certainly could have handled 20 years of Active Duty, but - as some here will find now that the Downsizing of the 1970s is in re-run - it wasn't up to me, and it certainly won't be up to you! Proof of that is the fact that I ended up doing 28 Years in the civilian employment I went to upon my movement to the Guard.

SENDBILLMONEY
01-26-2013, 11:45 PM
Actually, I certainly could have handled 20 years of Active Duty, but - as some here will find now that the Downsizing of the 1970s is in re-run - it wasn't up to me, and it certainly won't be up to you! Proof of that is the fact that I ended up doing 28 Years in the civilian employment I went to upon my movement to the Guard.

Wait, I thought you "got around the Army Garrison Culture by going to the National Guard." Are we now to understand that you didn't get around the Army's garrison culture, but were instead removed from it via involuntary downsizing?

Rizzo77
01-27-2013, 12:01 AM
Wait, I thought you "got around the Army Garrison Culture by going to the National Guard." Are we now to understand that you didn't get around the Army's garrison culture, but were instead removed from it via involuntary downsizing?

Who retires as a SSG? Unless you beat up an officer, you must REALLY suck (as a Soldier, and as a human being).

Jh762
02-16-2013, 08:10 AM
hahahahah now that's a blast from the past

CORNELIUSSEON
02-18-2013, 12:32 AM
Wait, I thought you "got around the Army Garrison Culture by going to the National Guard." Are we now to understand that you didn't get around the Army's garrison culture, but were instead removed from it via involuntary downsizing?

The former has to do with the CONSEQUENCES of moving from the Regular Army to the Guard, which means moving from one culture to the other.

The latter has to do with WHY I made the move, which took place due to the downsizing of the Regular Army due to the end of the Vietnam War.

There is no contradiction except in your head.

MisterBen
02-18-2013, 02:36 AM
The former has to do with the CONSEQUENCES of moving from the Regular Army to the Guard, which means moving from one culture to the other.

The latter has to do with WHY I made the move, which took place due to the downsizing of the Regular Army due to the end of the Vietnam War.

There is no contradiction except in your head.

Why even validate that comment by providing a response? You served, completed 20 years of service, had a good civilian job and now have a decent retirement. Regardless of rank retired, it is still a milestone to be proud of and you are a combat veteran of the Vietnam War.

Relax and enjoy your retirement.

CORNELIUSSEON
03-13-2013, 03:31 AM
The Army also needs to get rid of Cornelius Seon. We've done just fine without him since he retired from his sham ARNG service 50 years ago.

Not 50, 15 (Left the Guard in 1993, and got my pension in 2008). Looks like you need to re-learn Math.

CORNELIUSSEON
03-13-2013, 03:39 AM
Why even validate that comment by providing a response? You served, completed 20 years of service, had a good civilian job and now have a decent retirement. Regardless of rank retired, it is still a milestone to be proud of and you are a combat veteran of the Vietnam War.

Relax and enjoy your retirement.

I AM relaxed. Retirement gives me all the time in the world to do what I wish to do, and the freedom to speak as I see fit. Those Magpies are used to saying things like that to people who must be careful in what they say for fear of losing their careers. I'm beyond having to protect my career, and so can practice the level of Free Speech those Magpies only wish they could practice. After all, I don't hide behind an Alias like they do.

CORNELIUSSEON
03-13-2013, 03:47 AM
Because Corny is a know-it-all douche who can't help but defend himself since he knows how transparent he is. Nobody here thinks his input is valuable or relevant, so he explains himself ad nauseum in a failed attempt at sounding like he knows something.

Obviously you must feel that what I say indeed has value. Otherwise, you wouldn't comment on it at all. If I thought that what you say didn't have any merit, I certainly wouldn't bother responding to it. Yes, it has negative merit, but merit nonetheless.

MisterBen
03-15-2013, 11:16 PM
Not 50, 15 (Left the Guard in 1993, and got my pension in 2008). Looks like you need to re-learn Math.

Happy 65th Birthday.

MisterBen
03-15-2013, 11:18 PM
I AM relaxed. Retirement gives me all the time in the world to do what I wish to do, and the freedom to speak as I see fit. Those Magpies are used to saying things like that to people who must be careful in what they say for fear of losing their careers. I'm beyond having to protect my career, and so can practice the level of Free Speech those Magpies only wish they could practice. After all, I don't hide behind an Alias like they do.

I have to say that I do agree with you when it comes to forums.

CORNELIUSSEON
07-23-2014, 06:15 AM
First of all, I finally got my copies of the new AR-670-1 and DA Pam 670-1, and I'm glad that they finally let the ink dry on the subject of the Army Service Uniform.

"13–1. Classification
The service and dress uniforms authorized for wear are classified as:
a. The Army green uniform (see paras 13–2 through 13–9). The wear-out date for this uniform is 30 September 2015.
b. The Army (old) blue uniform. The wear-out date on this uniform is 30 September 2015 (see paras 13–10 through 13–18). Uniforms must be converted to match specifications of the Army service uniform (ASU) by 1 October 2015 (as otherwise authorized).
c. The ASU (see paras 13–10 through 13–18). The mandatory possession date of this uniform is 1 October 2015."

Secondly, we have a new Web Site from the US Army Human Resources Command which is named "Soldiers For Life". It is the web portal that replaces our direct access to AKO. You can find it here: http://soldierforlife.army.mil/index.html, and it is a lot easier to use than AKO was.

INGUARD
07-29-2014, 02:17 AM
Well as an officer, if I do not wear the new ASU at dining-ins or on my DA photo, I am going to get a mouthful. Everyone is wearing the ASUs now.

CORNELIUSSEON
07-29-2014, 03:18 AM
One point is necessary at this juncture: The new Blue ASU isn't "New", it has simply achieved a Resurrection. It dates from the Civil War with a diffrent cut (The Marine Corps Blue service uniform is as close to our original Blue ASU as you can find today), but was sidelined as the ASU in 1917, when we started to redesign the ASU along British lines. This is when Khaki and Green started to show up as ASUs. The change was complete by 1940, when the design lately seen in the so-called "Pink-and-Green" ASU survived to become the Post War Green ASU.. The "new" Blue ASU is an amalgam of the Green ASU design, and the original Blue ASU, and this finally puts the Army on the same plane as the Marine Corps when it comes to looking "Military".

Stalwart
07-29-2014, 03:27 AM
The Marine Corps Blue service uniform is as close to our original Blue ASU as you can find today

The Marine Corps service uniform is green. Blue is the dress uniform.




The "new" Blue ASU is an amalgam of the Green ASU design, and the original Blue ASU, and this finally puts the Army on the same plane as the Marine Corps when it comes to looking "Military".

Not really. The Blue is ASU is being used as more of a 'business' uniform (testimony on the hill, for service uniform day it is what the Army is wearing at my joint command. The Marines use their service uniform for that. The Marine Corps Dress Blue is a Dress uniform (for more formal occasions) ... the Blue ASU is used for both.

INGUARD
07-29-2014, 04:02 AM
One point is necessary at this juncture: The new Blue ASU isn't "New", it has simply achieved a Resurrection. It dates from the Civil War with a diffrent cut (The Marine Corps Blue service uniform is as close to our original Blue ASU as you can find today), but was sidelined as the ASU in 1917, when we started to redesign the ASU along British lines. This is when Khaki and Green started to show up as ASUs. The change was complete by 1940, when the design lately seen in the so-called "Pink-and-Green" ASU survived to become the Post War Green ASU.. The "new" Blue ASU is an amalgam of the Green ASU design, and the original Blue ASU, and this finally puts the Army on the same plane as the Marine Corps when it comes to looking "Military".

Every Soldier was given the history about the decision behind the ASU with its Civil War lineage. Personally, I preferred to go with the World War II era of the greatest generation. Also, the Pink and Greens were worn by officers as enlisted only wore the greens. You can see that easily when watching Band of Brothers or any WWII movie.

To me, I do not like it; especially with the tons of badges added to it. I would have liked it we would have remained with the Greens or go back to the WWII uniforms. Now those uniforms were sharp. But any uniform that resembles another service is to be removed from the uniform decision board. And with cost savings comes inferiority.