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Tak
08-06-2012, 06:10 PM
I pulled this from the Top 3 thread because frankly
No one will go into a thread with that title and I
Think it's one of my more serious posts and nyc
Response that's worth discussing:

Originally Posted by Tak "My games and playful profanity aside, look chief, There was a day when chiefs told it like it was behind doors And in public. If you asked them a question, there was an Immediate no bullshit straight answer. Now, when chiefs are asked, there's a pause and a Bs response. Chief, that pause is killing the enlisted force and showing Weakness to our officer force. I long for the day chiefs will Say no, when everyone else says yes, again. Amen."

Originally Posted by NYC "Now THAT is the Tak I've grown to admire over the years! I agree that there are MANY Chief's who have lost sight of that because they are still bucking for some kind of promotion/career advancement, and that makes me very sad. I sit in many Chief meetings and there is a whole lot of talk about PT shirts untucked and reflective belts not being worn, and I'm like "Really?". Let's change the fucking world!! There's so much more we could be doing. So yes, Tak, your point is valid. I will also say that for every Chief bucking for E-10, there is a good Chief who wants to roll up his sleeves and do some work. The problem is that many of these "Poser Chief's" are the one's being selected for Wg CCC. They're the guy/gal who can spit out doctrine and creeds with a silver tongue and have 0% body fat under a custom-fitted uniform, but there's no substance, man! Let's lock the fucking door, hash out the shitty problems we face, and then drink beer until we're singing songs and acting stupid.

Tak, you said it well, "the pause is killing us". But we ain't dead yet! We just need to get rid of the arrogant pricks who hold positions of power and install some Chief's who actually give a shit and don't care about E-10. They're out there, I know it..."

radio2sensorops
08-06-2012, 06:35 PM
Subscribed.

TheFuture
08-06-2012, 06:44 PM
They are out there but I believe that quite a few of them don't want to deal with the BS and get out. I don't blame them, I got out because of the BS. I am not saying I could have made Chief by any means but I have seen good E5's on up to E8's bounce because they were sick of the BS. Many of those E5's/E6's weren't anywhere near 20 but knew well enough that big blue was no longer for them because of the BS.

They are out there but what incentive do they have to stay in when every action is questioned and every way of doing things is second guessed even if done by the words written in black and white? Far too often I have heard "I don't care if it is in the AFI, do it my way". If what NYC said about Chiefs talking about tucked in shirts and reflective belts is true...well then, the force is officially getting fist f'd by its own people.

Leadership didn't cut the nuts of its Chiefs, Chiefs did it to themselves by bringing the PT shirts and reflective belts to the forefront and not real issues like suicides, stress, and everything of the sort. There are real problems to be fixed but we are too blinded by the shiney blue chrome on the polished nuts of leadership to realize it.

To an extent we did this to ourselves. I hope all of you that are still in are doing what needs to be done and doing it proudly. You are all better men and women than I for sticking it out.

Luvnlife
08-06-2012, 08:16 PM
Everything is going the way of the Dodo because of the pussification of our society, and its worming its way into the military; it will be complete once the Marines finally cave.

Rainmaker
08-06-2012, 08:45 PM
I used to think that most of the Chiefs knew better. But, were just politicking. Then i realized that most of them actually believe the Bullshit they are spewing.

Nic
08-06-2012, 09:28 PM
I had a SMSgt bitching to me about a problem I brought up. "Leadership is so screwed up here" I looked at him and said Uhhh arent you leadership?? I left after that comment
I knew a Chief that would speak his mind. He is now a civilan earning SMSgt pay.

Kegler
08-06-2012, 09:52 PM
An obituary I received in an email that relates to this topic (I do not know who to give credit to as the author...but it is so true it is sad). As stated by a few already....the culture we live in has transformed into this PC era and the military has started adopting it. This is much bigger than an AF problem...it is society as a whole that has dug this hole we live in today.

Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as:
- Knowing when to come in out of the rain;
- Why the early bird gets the worm;
- Life isn't always fair;
- and maybe it was my fault.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, are in charge).

His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.

Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children.

It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.

Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims..

Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault.

Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement..

Common Sense was preceded in death, by his parents, Truth and Trust, by his wife, Discretion, by his daughter, Responsibility, and by his son, Reason.

He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers;
I Know My Rights
I Want It Now
Someone Else Is To Blame
I'm A Victim

Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing.

sandsjames
08-07-2012, 01:43 AM
What's the Top 3 thread?

Tak
08-07-2012, 01:50 AM
What's the Top 3 thread?

Not taking questions dillweed.

sandsjames
08-07-2012, 01:57 AM
Not taking questions dillweed.

You've been Cornholed

"Fresh and dried dill leaves (sometimes called "dill weed" to distinguish it from dill seed) are used as herbs, mainly in Finland, Sweden, the Baltic, in Russia, and in central Asia.

Like caraway, its fernlike leaves are aromatic and are used to flavor many foods, such as gravlax (cured salmon), borscht and other soups, and pickles (where the dill flower is sometimes used). Dill is best when used fresh, as it loses its flavor rapidly if dried; however, freeze-dried dill leaves preserve their flavor relatively well for a few months.

Dill seed is used as a spice, with a flavor somewhat similar to caraway, but also resembling that of fresh or dried dill weed.[4] Dill oil can be extracted from the leaves, stems and seeds of the plant. Dill is the herb most often added to fish when consumed as food.

Dill is the eponymous ingredient in dill pickles: cucumbers preserved in salty brine and/or vinegar.

In Arabic, dill seed, called ain jaradeh (cricket eye), is used as a spice in cold dishes such as fattoush and pickles.

In Arab countries of the Persian Gulf, dill is called shibint and is used mostly in fish dishes.

In Lao cuisine and parts of northern Thailand, dill is known in English as Laotian coriander[5] and Lao cilantro(Lao: ຜັກຊີ, Thai: ผักชีลาว). In the Lao language, it is called phak see, and in Thai, it is known as phak chee Lao.[6] In Lao cuisine, the herb is typically used in mok pa (steamed fish in banana leaf) and several coconut milk-based curries that contain fish or prawns.

In Romania dill (mărar) is used on a national scale as an ingredient for soups such as borscht, pickles and other dishes; it is often mixed with salted cheese and used as a filling for the langos. Another popular dish with dill as a base ingredient is the dill sauce.

In Vietnam, the use of dill in cooking is regional, specifically northern Vietnamese cuisine.

In Iran, dill is known as shevid and is sometimes used with rice and called shevid-polo. It is also used in Iranian aash recipes, and is also called sheved in Persian."

Shrike
08-07-2012, 02:16 AM
We haven't had a good Cornholing around here in a while. Thanks, sj!

:)

sandsjames
08-07-2012, 02:21 AM
We haven't had a good Cornholing around here in a while. Thanks, sj!

:) My pleasure. I only hope I didn't infringe on your territory as you are the resident Cornholer in these parts.

Shrike
08-07-2012, 02:25 AM
My pleasure. I only hope I didn't infringe on your territory as you are the resident Cornholer in these parts.

Someone needs to take over for me. Once I'm retired the original Cornhole will outrank me and if I mock his posting style he might make me wash his car or polish his cane.

imported_Renazance
08-07-2012, 06:33 AM
In today's AF, everyone is looking out for #1. No one wants to be the bad guy and stand up and speak their mind for fear that it'll reflect negatively on them. Those in leadership positions have to walk on eggshells to avoid doing anything that'll piss off the chain of command. They're too worried that speaking up will get them marked down on their EPR and that it'll derail their chances of making the next rank. The authority of the NCO and SNCO corps has been stripped away. We no longer have to the power to correct problems at the lowest level. Everything has to get routed up and every officer in the chain seems to believe he or she has to get involved in every issue. Commanders are afraid to make tough decisions in order to cover their own asses.

imported_DannyJ
08-07-2012, 07:11 AM
In today's AF, everyone is looking out for #1. No one wants to be the bad guy and stand up and speak their mind for fear that it'll reflect negatively on them. Those in leadership positions have to walk on eggshells to avoid doing anything that'll piss off the chain of command. They're too worried that speaking up will get them marked down on their EPR and that it'll derail their chances of making the next rank. The authority of the NCO and SNCO corps has been stripped away. We no longer have to the power to correct problems at the lowest level. Everything has to get routed up and every officer in the chain seems to believe he or she has to get involved in every issue. Commanders are afraid to make tough decisions in order to cover their own asses.

I agree with 95% of what is said in totality in this thread, HOWEVER, it goes back to asking yourself what you are in it for. I just re-upped in January for the longest term possible after a good while of hard consideration of whether to stay in or not. For me it came down to, "am I willing to put up with all the shit, put others and the force first, and do what I can to improve the situation?" As ridiculous as that sounds, that's what it came to, for me at least. No one hates choking down the blue kool aid more than I, but in the end, we do have the possiblity to return to being the baddest ass mofos on the block.

Control what you can control.

Drackore
08-07-2012, 08:15 AM
As a TSgt at my last unit, I got sick of the politics and started fighting for my troops (they were on the other side of the base, well away from the main unit - thus they never got awards or recognition because they didn't get "face time"). I would pull unit and Group leadership into our shop to show them our crappy office furniture and our crappy facility and our outstanding equipment and mission terminals. Looked them dead in the eye and said "You won't see a better operating or asthetically pleasing terminal anywhere else in the DoD." Told them that since we kicked ass at our job, shouldn't we be supporting them better with a fixed up building and chairs to sit in and desks to sit at? Got the money. NCOIC took the credit. That's fine. I made sure it went in my EPR as well.

Moved up from the ANCOIC to NCOIC and eventually Section Chief....all the while fighting for my people. When I got to Section Chief, my E9 told me "You are now one of "them"...the "them" you fought against. Time to get on board." Nah. Didn't happen. In all fairness, I can't really call this guy a sole E9. He had management styles I didn't like, but he also had some leadership styles that I did admire. An E-Chief? Dunno.

Anyways...new unit. Been here over half a year now. Been told I am too brash, too harsh, out of line, out of my lane, not in my role, etc. I replied "That's who I am, that's my LEADERSHIP style. I don't manage, there is enough of that to go around. I am not changing".

My EPRs and Decs and Awards do not matter to me. I will work for them...I will not steal them like most SNCOs do. What goes on my EPRs and packages are MY work..not someone else's work (team efforts of course go to the entire team). I will not ever walk on the backs of my people to get ahead. I can't do it. It disgusts me. People that do it should STFU and get out (Os included). You are wrong. Anything you say to argue me is WRONG. Earn your own damn way.

When I heard at SNCO Induction that your troops earning Quarterly/Annual awards should go on your SNCO EPR because the board's look at those - the earlier assignment I mentioned made sense. Awards are not for the most deserving - they are for grooming favored SNCOs for advancement! Maybe not everywhere, but in enough places to make the entire program diseased.

Since I was a SSgt I was doing MSgt lvl work (was the only SSgt instructor in a course taught by MSgts...took over as NCOIC for a MSgt and as Section Chief for a different MSgt, both as a TSgt). Now I am an NCOIC at this unit. I talk to each one of my troops every day. I mentor them on the Blue Koolaid stance of SARC, Financial Readiness, Alcohol, dress and appearance, something every day. We also shoot the shit. Talk about video games, women, families, racial differences, news...whatever.

Am I propping myself up and saying "Hey look at me, I am great"? No. I am saying I am doing my job, regardless if others in the AF like it or not.

If I have a pause...it's not because I am thinking of the political answer...I am wording my answers carefully. If you ask me a sensitive question that requires a response of "no" and my gut is to say "Fuck no"...I will pause to remove the word "fuck" from my brain. However, one thing I will ALWAYS do it tell it straight...regardless of rank or position. Officers stopped being intimidating to me when I was a SrA. I still see E9s get all flabbergasted when a General is around. Why? Who cares. They are still people. These people NEED to hear it straight. Wing Kings, Command Chiefs, MAJCOM CCs, CSAF, CMSAF...they NEED to hear it straight. They also need to make their visits unannounced and visit without their entourage.

I would sit back and daydream that if I made Chief and became a Wing Command Chief...I would visit a random office...unannounced, no notice. If people found out and wanted to follow me around I'd tell them to get lost. I'd talk to the Airmen and NCOs....closed door...and say "Drop the BS...what's bothering you?" I would take that input to the Wing CC along with what the Shirts and Chiefs would tell me in the political meetings I will have to have. "Sir...see the difference? The Chiefs and Shirts are saying morale is the best they've seen. These anonymous Airmen and NCOs I talked to personally say otherwise."

But my chances of making Chief are spiralling downward epically. My mouth, my attitude, my physical problems. So now I can only hope that I can influence someone out there with balls to take up the mantle and realize that as NCOICs, Section Chiefs - you worry MORE about people. Do they have the tools? Do they have the resources? Are they equally and properly recognized? Let THEM worry about the mission. If they screw up the mission - THEN YOU GET INVOLVED. Otherwise you report that your mission is fine, and report on what your people need to keep it that way.

Sorry - every thread like this brings out the long-winded in me. The Air Force fails at leadership at ALL levels. I love the AF though. Don't get me wrong. I love it like I love America. So much potential...but sadly...both disgust me because of where they are both at right now: in the sewer.

imported_Renazance
08-07-2012, 10:20 AM
As a TSgt at my last unit, I got sick of the politics and started fighting for my troops (they were on the other side of the base, well away from the main unit - thus they never got awards or recognition because they didn't get "face time"). I would pull unit and Group leadership into our shop to show them our crappy office furniture and our crappy facility and our outstanding equipment and mission terminals. Looked them dead in the eye and said "You won't see a better operating or asthetically pleasing terminal anywhere else in the DoD." Told them that since we kicked ass at our job, shouldn't we be supporting them better with a fixed up building and chairs to sit in and desks to sit at? Got the money. NCOIC took the credit. That's fine. I made sure it went in my EPR as well.

Moved up from the ANCOIC to NCOIC and eventually Section Chief....all the while fighting for my people. When I got to Section Chief, my E9 told me "You are now one of "them"...the "them" you fought against. Time to get on board." Nah. Didn't happen. In all fairness, I can't really call this guy a sole E9. He had management styles I didn't like, but he also had some leadership styles that I did admire. An E-Chief? Dunno.

Anyways...new unit. Been here over half a year now. Been told I am too brash, too harsh, out of line, out of my lane, not in my role, etc. I replied "That's who I am, that's my LEADERSHIP style. I don't manage, there is enough of that to go around. I am not changing".

My EPRs and Decs and Awards do not matter to me. I will work for them...I will not steal them like most SNCOs do. What goes on my EPRs and packages are MY work..not someone else's work (team efforts of course go to the entire team). I will not ever walk on the backs of my people to get ahead. I can't do it. It disgusts me. People that do it should STFU and get out (Os included). You are wrong. Anything you say to argue me is WRONG. Earn your own damn way.

When I heard at SNCO Induction that your troops earning Quarterly/Annual awards should go on your SNCO EPR because the board's look at those - the earlier assignment I mentioned made sense. Awards are not for the most deserving - they are for grooming favored SNCOs for advancement! Maybe not everywhere, but in enough places to make the entire program diseased.

Since I was a SSgt I was doing MSgt lvl work (was the only SSgt instructor in a course taught by MSgts...took over as NCOIC for a MSgt and as Section Chief for a different MSgt, both as a TSgt). Now I am an NCOIC at this unit. I talk to each one of my troops every day. I mentor them on the Blue Koolaid stance of SARC, Financial Readiness, Alcohol, dress and appearance, something every day. We also shoot the shit. Talk about video games, women, families, racial differences, news...whatever.

Am I propping myself up and saying "Hey look at me, I am great"? No. I am saying I am doing my job, regardless if others in the AF like it or not.

If I have a pause...it's not because I am thinking of the political answer...I am wording my answers carefully. If you ask me a sensitive question that requires a response of "no" and my gut is to say "Fuck no"...I will pause to remove the word "fuck" from my brain. However, one thing I will ALWAYS do it tell it straight...regardless of rank or position. Officers stopped being intimidating to me when I was a SrA. I still see E9s get all flabbergasted when a General is around. Why? Who cares. They are still people. These people NEED to hear it straight. Wing Kings, Command Chiefs, MAJCOM CCs, CSAF, CMSAF...they NEED to hear it straight. They also need to make their visits unannounced and visit without their entourage.

I would sit back and daydream that if I made Chief and became a Wing Command Chief...I would visit a random office...unannounced, no notice. If people found out and wanted to follow me around I'd tell them to get lost. I'd talk to the Airmen and NCOs....closed door...and say "Drop the BS...what's bothering you?" I would take that input to the Wing CC along with what the Shirts and Chiefs would tell me in the political meetings I will have to have. "Sir...see the difference? The Chiefs and Shirts are saying morale is the best they've seen. These anonymous Airmen and NCOs I talked to personally say otherwise."

But my chances of making Chief are spiralling downward epically. My mouth, my attitude, my physical problems. So now I can only hope that I can influence someone out there with balls to take up the mantle and realize that as NCOICs, Section Chiefs - you worry MORE about people. Do they have the tools? Do they have the resources? Are they equally and properly recognized? Let THEM worry about the mission. If they screw up the mission - THEN YOU GET INVOLVED. Otherwise you report that your mission is fine, and report on what your people need to keep it that way.

Sorry - every thread like this brings out the long-winded in me. The Air Force fails at leadership at ALL levels. I love the AF though. Don't get me wrong. I love it like I love America. So much potential...but sadly...both disgust me because of where they are both at right now: in the sewer.

My name is Renazance and I approved this message. Now if more NCOs, SNCOs, and officers were like this, the AF would be in a much better state. Drack, don't change your ways. We need people like you.

imported_DannyJ
08-07-2012, 10:25 AM
My name is Renazance and I approved this message. Now if more NCOs, SNCOs, and officers were like this, the AF would be in a much better state. Drack, don't change your ways. We need people like you.

Amen, brotha. Amen.

Drackore
08-07-2012, 10:45 AM
Thanks fellas, but I will tell you - I do feel very alone. I'll get Os and SNCOs come tell me that what I do is right...BUUUUT I need to dumb it down, nice it up, etc. Then those very same people go and do the things we all can't stand. Like I said...I would love to take this style to CMSgt...I just don't think I even have the patience to do so.

imported_Renazance
08-07-2012, 10:56 AM
Thanks fellas, but I will tell you - I do feel very alone. I'll get Os and SNCOs come tell me that what I do is right...BUUUUT I need to dumb it down, nice it up, etc. Then those very same people go and do the things we all can't stand. Like I said...I would love to take this style to CMSgt...I just don't think I even have the patience to do so.

Just keep on trucking. You might luck out and work for someone that no shit supports your style 100%. I wouldn't dumb it down or nice it up. If someone doesn't understand you or gets their feelings hurt, that's their problem, not yours.

DWWSWWD
08-07-2012, 02:03 PM
Leadership didn't cut the nuts of its Chiefs, Chiefs did it to themselves by bringing the PT shirts and reflective belts to the forefront and not real issues like suicides, stress, and everything of the sort.

To be fair, the evolution of this thing went something like this: Airmen were wearing their PT gear like gangsters, with pants around their asses and shirts 4 times too big and NCOs walked past it. Air Force leadership (begins with an O-, not an E-) changed the policy. Airmen don't tuck their shirts in and NCOs walk past it. Chiefs cannot walk past a problem. Ever. The last thing I want to do is tell an Airman to tuck his shirt in. He knows better and 50 NCOs have walked past it. Take care of the shit on your scope and it gives me more to time to care of the shit on mine. There you go, straight talk from a Chief.

Tak
08-07-2012, 02:06 PM
To be fair, the evlution of this thig went something like this: Airmen were wearing their PT gear like gangsters, with pants around their asses and shirts 4 times too big and NCOs walked past it. Air Force leadership (begins with an O-, not an E-) changed the policy. Airmen don't tuck their shirts in and NCOs walk past it. Chiefs cannot walk past a problem. Ever. The last thing I want to do is tell an Airman to tuck his shirt in. He knows better and 50 NCOs have walked past it. Take care of the shit on your scope and it gives me more to time to care of the shit on mine. There you go, straight talk from a Chief.

Awesome, straight talk from a chief about pt shirt tucking.

sandsjames
08-07-2012, 02:08 PM
When I heard at SNCO Induction that your troops earning Quarterly/Annual awards should go on your SNCO EPR because the board's look at those - the earlier assignment I mentioned made sense. Awards are not for the most deserving - they are for grooming favored SNCOs for advancement! Maybe not everywhere, but in enough places to make the entire program diseased.



Does this really happen with awards? I wasn't aware at all that they used them for themselves. No wonder there a mandatory number the shop has to turn in every time. Ridiculous if it's widespread.

Tak
08-07-2012, 02:10 PM
Does this really happen with awards? I wasn't aware at all that they used them for themselves. No wonder there a mandatory number the shop has to turn in every time. Ridiculous if it's widespread.

All this crap is meaningless once your out.

sandsjames
08-07-2012, 02:25 PM
All this crap is meaningless once your out.

Yeah, I've thought about this more as I get closer to retirement. I've never worried about the awards and stuff anyway. Actually got into an argument/discussion yesterday with my NCOIC. We had a shop meeting and it was briefed that every supervisor needs to start turning in a quarterly package for their troop. His thoughts are that we need to push these guys to get them to volunteer more, do school, etc. To me, award winners are those who do the stuff required without being asked to do it. If you have to "highly recommend" someone do it, then they are just following orders.

DWWSWWD
08-07-2012, 02:39 PM
Awesome, straight talk from a chief about pt shirt tucking. Touche, Tak. Substitute any number of things that we didn't take care of and got policies as a result. The PT shirt thing is frustrating to me because it is so easy and folks think that it consumes every minute of every day for a Chief. People will watch the train jump the tracks and then bitch that they don't have any authority.

TheFuture
08-07-2012, 03:39 PM
To be fair, the evlution of this thig went something like this: Airmen were wearing their PT gear like gangsters, with pants around their asses and shirts 4 times too big and NCOs walked past it. Air Force leadership (begins with an O-, not an E-) changed the policy. Airmen don't tuck their shirts in and NCOs walk past it. Chiefs cannot walk past a problem. Ever. The last thing I want to do is tell an Airman to tuck his shirt in. He knows better and 50 NCOs have walked past it. Take care of the shit on your scope and it gives me more to time to care of the shit on mine. There you go, straight talk from a Chief.

Chief, I do get it and I understand that a Chief can't walk by any problem without correcting it. However, when Chiefs are organizing sock height, reflective belt and PT shirt gustapo...there is a real problem with the force.

When you have blowhards like Blutarsky (back in my lurking days) reaching airmen at all levels with his drivle, then there is a problem. When you have Chiefs that spend more time rubbing elbows with leadership and not in the so called trenches with their troops, there is a real problem. When Chiefs are substituting regs with their personal preference then there is a problem.

Is it all the fault of the Chiefs? No, not at all or even remotely for that matter. I think they catch the flack because they are one of the few that have the power to stomp their mighty foot down and stop the non-sense. These are the men and women that can stand in front of the CC's, look them in the eye and tell them "I don't think that is a good idea" and more than likely be okay when they leave that office. We simply do not have many that have the testicular fortitude to do that.

DWWSWWD
08-07-2012, 04:05 PM
Chief, I do get it and I understand that a Chief can't walk by any problem without correcting it. However, when Chiefs are organizing sock height, reflective belt and PT shirt gustapo...there is a real problem with the force.

When you have blowhards like Blutarsky (back in my lurking days) reaching airmen at all levels with his drivle, then there is a problem. When you have Chiefs that spend more time rubbing elbows with leadership and not in the so called trenches with their troops, there is a real problem. When Chiefs are substituting regs with their personal preference then there is a problem.

Is it all the fault of the Chiefs? No, not at all or even remotely for that matter. I think they catch the flack because they are one of the few that have the power to stomp their mighty foot down and stop the non-sense. These are the men and women that can stand in front of the CC's, look them in the eye and tell them "I don't think that is a good idea" and more than likely be okay when they leave that office. We simply do not have many that have the testicular fortitude to do that. I've never seen the PT shirt gustapo and I've only seen a couple of Chiefs that wouldn't stand on their CC's desk and tell them they were off track. Blutarsky.... I don't know. These interwebz are a weird thing. Could be that folks that are there with him take his targets in the context of his face to face relationships with them and it works. I don't know him. There are things that I send out, that without the context of my credbility and reputation with my folks, would not work. I do know some Chiefs that are less effective because they have a poor relationship with their CC. I think a great Chief can slam beers with the sled dogs and then go drink wine with the General to get his people what they need. This is a point that young Drackore could use to the benefit of his folks. I used to be just like him. If you fight to the death on an issue, you don't live to fight another day. I think I take pretty good care of my folks and most of it is verbal judo, relationships and an occasional dump in a coffeepot.

Drackore
08-08-2012, 06:33 AM
You called me young. That's a +1 from me no matter what else was said. /hearts (no gay)

I have heard what you are saying many, many times. It seems like great advice up front, but look around and it doesn't work out that way. When I see that "line drawn" by my seniors, that's when I know to stop and I will stop. I don't push an issue into the annoyance or insubordinate catagories. However, there are just too many fights to fight. I'd like to pick and choose, but too many other SNCOs are too pussified to take up any of those battles. They will all say, in private "I agree with your stance...thank you for bringing it up". When their support is needed though, they sulk in the corner hoping no one looks over at them.

And unless that General is drinking Mad Dog, I'll pass on the wine and just get down to brass tacks. No General wants me around his little function anyways. People's clothes usually go missing.


I've never seen the PT shirt gustapo and I've only seen a couple of Chiefs that wouldn't stand on their CC's desk and tell them they were off track. Blutarsky.... I don't know. These interwebz are a weird thing. Could be that folks that are there with him take his targets in the context of his face to face relationships with them and it works. I don't know him. There are things that I send out, that without the context of my credbility and reputation with my folks, would not work. I do know some Chiefs that are less effective because they have a poor relationship with their CC. I think a great Chief can slam beers with the sled dogs and then go drink wine with the General to get his people what they need. This is a point that young Drackore could use to the benefit of his folks. I used to be just like him. If you fight to the death on an issue, you don't live to fight another day. I think I take pretty good care of my folks and most of it is verbal judo, relationships and an occasional dump in a coffeepot.

JD2780
08-08-2012, 05:21 PM
Speaking of stupid shit. A buddy of mine is retiring after 21 yrs of service 7 deployments to iraq and afghaniland, 2x purple hears 2 BSMs 1 with V, and many other commendation and achievement medals and is getting an AFCOM for his retirement medal. Because he doesnt have a CCAF

Me 10 yrs of service 4 deployments to iraq and afghaniland, no purple heart, down graded BSM to ARCOM, along with 5 other commendation and some achievement medals. I'm also getting an AFCOM at my separation thing, not really a ceremony because thats dumb.

Anybody else see the stupidity in a MSgt with 21 yrs and all that stuff getting an AFCOM for retirement?

JD2780
08-08-2012, 05:22 PM
To be fair, the evolution of this thing went something like this: Airmen were wearing their PT gear like gangsters, with pants around their asses and shirts 4 times too big and NCOs walked past it. Air Force leadership (begins with an O-, not an E-) changed the policy. Airmen don't tuck their shirts in and NCOs walk past it. Chiefs cannot walk past a problem. Ever. The last thing I want to do is tell an Airman to tuck his shirt in. He knows better and 50 NCOs have walked past it. Take care of the shit on your scope and it gives me more to time to care of the shit on mine. There you go, straight talk from a Chief.

I appreciate your candor. However, I see CMSgts and SNCOs AND O's and NCOs walk past people wearing their ABUs and PT gear like its an LL Cool J concert.

ROAD
08-08-2012, 05:26 PM
I appreciate your candor. However, I see CMSgts and SNCOs AND O's and NCOs walk past people wearing their ABUs and PT gear like its an LL Cool J concert.

LL Cool J still does concerts?

JD2780
08-08-2012, 05:28 PM
I think so, Snoop dog? or is it Dawg now?

ROAD
08-08-2012, 05:34 PM
I think so, Snoop dog? or is it Dawg now?

You are so not cool...it's Snoop Lion now...he changed his name and stopped making rap music.

gmc2011
08-08-2012, 05:38 PM
I think so, Snoop dog? or is it Dawg now?

Snoop Lion, as of a couple of days ago. Just not the same, Snoop L-I-O-N doesn't have the same ring as Snoop D-O-double G!

JD2780
08-08-2012, 05:55 PM
Damn, yup I'm not cool. I'll still call him snoop dogg. I'll go be ashamed while rollin down the street to continue with my out processing.

Luvnlife
08-08-2012, 07:31 PM
So today that same Airman who doesnt use "sir/ma'am" is sitting at their desk (back turned away from everyone) texting on their cell phone, with one monitor on youtube watching music videos and the other monitor on Facebook. Two MSgt's have come into the office to speak to others and left without saying anything. Maybe the Amn has dirt on everyone in the sqd so they're afraid to say something.

Or since they arent blocked on the network its acceptable?

imported_DannyJ
08-08-2012, 07:38 PM
So today that same Airman who doesnt use "sir/ma'am" is sitting at their desk (back turned away from everyone) texting on their cell phone, with one monitor on youtube watching music videos and the other monitor on Facebook. Two MSgt's have come into the office to speak to others and left without saying anything. Maybe the Amn has dirt on everyone in the sqd so they're afraid to say something.

Or since they arent blocked on the network its acceptable?

Not in my damn office/ work space it wouldn't be! Once in a while is fine, but seriously?

sandsjames
08-08-2012, 08:11 PM
So today that same Airman who doesnt use "sir/ma'am" is sitting at their desk (back turned away from everyone) texting on their cell phone, with one monitor on youtube watching music videos and the other monitor on Facebook. Two MSgt's have come into the office to speak to others and left without saying anything. Maybe the Amn has dirt on everyone in the sqd so they're afraid to say something.

Or since they arent blocked on the network its acceptable?

If there's nothing else going on, then no big deal. If there's work to be done, then it's a different story. I'll never find "busy work" for my guys to do. If we're caught up then go ahead and do what you want. We all have to make up that wasted time when we are deployed, away from family, working at least 72 hours a week.

DWWSWWD
08-08-2012, 08:46 PM
Speaking of stupid shit. A buddy of mine is retiring after 21 yrs of service 7 deployments to iraq and afghaniland, 2x purple hears 2 BSMs 1 with V, and many other commendation and achievement medals and is getting an AFCOM for his retirement medal. Because he doesnt have a CCAF
Anybody else see the stupidity in a MSgt with 21 yrs and all that stuff getting an AFCOM for retirement? I think I posted this before.... Decoration reg states that for retirement, one's entire career should be considered. A MSgt that may not be considered for a PCS MSM because of a CCAF or PT failure or whatever, should still be able to stand tall in front of his Mom and receive an MSM in grateful appreciation for 20 years of service. Soooo, one of two things is true. CC is a jackass/Chief is weak or there's more to the story.

JD2780
08-08-2012, 10:56 PM
I think I posted this before.... Decoration reg states that for retirement, one's entire career should be considered. A MSgt that may not be considered for a PCS MSM because of a CCAF or PT failure or whatever, should still be able to stand tall in front of his Mom and receive an MSM in grateful appreciation for 20 years of service. Soooo, one of two things is true. CC is a jackass/Chief is weak or there's more to the story.

There isnt anymore to the story. The guy has never failed a PT test. Was a great sq sup. Our OG Chief is a punk and our Sq CC isnt standing up for him.

ROAD
08-08-2012, 11:08 PM
I know some people care, but for me, if they "screwed me over " on a medal when retiring, I would not care. Not going to affect the rest of my life in any way, and civilians who hire you don't know the diffrence

JD2780
08-09-2012, 03:10 AM
He is coming back into the sq as a civilian. Its also the principal of it. Why is a CCAF necessary to get an MSM upon retirement. Not its not going to do much, but really an AFCOM. Giving me the samething for 10 yrs as hes getting for 21

ROAD
08-09-2012, 06:21 AM
He is coming back into the sq as a civilian. Its also the principal of it. Why is a CCAF necessary to get an MSM upon retirement. Not its not going to do much, but really an AFCOM. Giving me the samething for 10 yrs as hes getting for 21

Did he care? I mean did he voice his displeasure to you? i ask because, he may not give a shit, people's values on things like "decorations" vary greatly, some people need to be constantly reminded with positive reinforcement how much that are valued and all that BS. Others don't give two shits, they have a high enough self esteem to know the are the shit and don't need a medal or others to tell them. (yes i'm doing my course 14 right now, just finished the behavioral analysis portion) knowing your superiors and subordinates values which may differ greatly from your own and trying to see things from their point of view will greatly increase your ability to supervisor and accept orders that you may not agree with...(who said PME was a waste of time, oh that was me)

imported_Renazance
08-09-2012, 07:13 AM
Damn, yup I'm not cool. I'll still call him snoop dogg. I'll go be ashamed while rollin down the street to continue with my out processing.

If you wanna show how really uncool you are, you go around calling him Snoop Doggy Dogg ;-)

JD2780
08-09-2012, 03:09 PM
Did he care? I mean did he voice his displeasure to you? i ask because, he may not give a shit, people's values on things like "decorations" vary greatly, some people need to be constantly reminded with positive reinforcement how much that are valued and all that BS. Others don't give two shits, they have a high enough self esteem to know the are the shit and don't need a medal or others to tell them. (yes i'm doing my course 14 right now, just finished the behavioral analysis portion) knowing your superiors and subordinates values which may differ greatly from your own and trying to see things from their point of view will greatly increase your ability to supervisor and accept orders that you may not agree with...(who said PME was a waste of time, oh that was me)

He is a little pissed. He knows its not worth anything later in life, but feels screwed over. There is NO requirement for CCAF to recieve an MSM. However, the AF likes screwing people over. Now they're trying to MAKE him have a retirement ceremony. Stupidty is our black plague and its spreading across the AF!!

Drackore
08-09-2012, 03:50 PM
How do you force someone to have a ceremony? Especially if you are slighting or screwing them over? If I didn't want a ceremony, I wouldn't show up. What are they going to do?


He is a little pissed. He knows its not worth anything later in life, but feels screwed over. There is NO requirement for CCAF to recieve an MSM. However, the AF likes screwing people over. Now they're trying to MAKE him have a retirement ceremony. Stupidty is our black plague and its spreading across the AF!!

Luvnlife
08-09-2012, 04:06 PM
If there's nothing else going on, then no big deal. If there's work to be done, then it's a different story. I'll never find "busy work" for my guys to do. If we're caught up then go ahead and do what you want. We all have to make up that wasted time when we are deployed, away from family, working at least 72 hours a week.

Nah, this is all the time non-stop. From arrival to departure, all day looooooong. Gotta remember to update that FB status!

Orion
08-11-2012, 11:09 AM
The Pause thats killing the USAF is the lack of enlisted leadership. Unfortunatly, our Chiefs and Shirts seem to think Morale is bought with Burger Burns and checking ID's at the gate. The message our NCO's get is the path to success is the Top-3 car wash and reading the creed at the ALS banquet.

Orion
08-11-2012, 11:18 AM
Unfortunately, this is becoming the norm in many locations. In the MXG, I would say 50% of the people get a PCS Dec, Zero for PCA and if you are a SNCO, better have your CCAF or you can expect zip! New standard in Mx seems to be "Abuse your people until they can no longer perform, then shit on them as they limp out the door"

Our Squadron also pays for the shadow box and reception at retirements. It's not cheap and is supported by a $200 snack bar tax. Units and families get allot in return for this tax. But for retirements, Basic rule is no ceremony, no shadow box.

Forsaken Wombat
08-11-2012, 11:33 AM
He is a little pissed. He knows its not worth anything later in life, but feels screwed over. There is NO requirement for CCAF to recieve an MSM. However, the AF likes screwing people over. Now they're trying to MAKE him have a retirement ceremony. Stupidty is our black plague and its spreading across the AF!!

You can't make someone have a ceremony. What will they do, take away his retirement? These kind of "leaders" are merely hyenas. Once they target someone, they nip and bite and chew and snarl until they've exhausted themselves, then move on to a new target. An old NCOIC of mine was royally screwed over by our "leadership" as he approached retirement; he decided the best middle finger he could give was to not have a retirement ceremony and instead have a get-together with the shop and some friends. "Leadership" tried to force him; he ignored them.

He's now making six figures as a civilian. Best retirement ever.

RobotChicken
08-16-2013, 07:52 AM
I pulled this from the Top 3 thread because frankly
No one will go into a thread with that title and I
Think it's one of my more serious posts and nyc
Response that's worth discussing:

Originally Posted by Tak "My games and playful profanity aside, look chief, There was a day when chiefs told it like it was behind doors And in public. If you asked them a question, there was an Immediate no bullshit straight answer. Now, when chiefs are asked, there's a pause and a Bs response. Chief, that pause is killing the enlisted force and showing Weakness to our officer force. I long for the day chiefs will Say no, when everyone else says yes, again. Amen."

Originally Posted by NYC "Now THAT is the Tak I've grown to admire over the years! I agree that there are MANY Chief's who have lost sight of that because they are still bucking for some kind of promotion/career advancement, and that makes me very sad. I sit in many Chief meetings and there is a whole lot of talk about PT shirts untucked and reflective belts not being worn, and I'm like "Really?". Let's change the fucking world!! There's so much more we could be doing. So yes, Tak, your point is valid. I will also say that for every Chief bucking for E-10, there is a good Chief who wants to roll up his sleeves and do some work. The problem is that many of these "Poser Chief's" are the one's being selected for Wg CCC. They're the guy/gal who can spit out doctrine and creeds with a silver tongue and have 0% body fat under a custom-fitted uniform, but there's no substance, man! Let's lock the fucking door, hash out the shitty problems we face, and then drink beer until we're singing songs and acting stupid.

Tak, you said it well, "the pause is killing us". But we ain't dead yet! We just need to get rid of the arrogant pricks who hold positions of power and install some Chief's who actually give a shit and don't care about E-10. They're out there, I know it..."

"The more thing change; the more they stay the same...nuff said."

jondstewart
08-18-2013, 08:24 PM
The problem is that for the past 20 years, the younger generation is much more coddled and PC'd. Anybody that is straightforward or "telling it like it is", is pretty much considered uncouth or a heartless a'hole!

You can do it in the Army by simply telling your troops and they apply it and move on. But God forbid you give it to somebody straight in the Air Force, unless you want them to end up traumatized or in tears!

jondstewart
08-18-2013, 08:29 PM
You can't make someone have a ceremony. What will they do, take away his retirement? These kind of "leaders" are merely hyenas. Once they target someone, they nip and bite and chew and snarl until they've exhausted themselves, then move on to a new target. An old NCOIC of mine was royally screwed over by our "leadership" as he approached retirement; he decided the best middle finger he could give was to not have a retirement ceremony and instead have a get-together with the shop and some friends. "Leadership" tried to force him; he ignored them.

He's now making six figures as a civilian. Best retirement ever.

THAT is somebody I respect! I pretty much gave the leadership of our squadron the finger when I retired! The highest ranking person that came to my little get together was our First Sergeant; he was one of those that really cared about and took care of his people and I'm glad he came!

jondstewart
08-18-2013, 08:42 PM
Speaking of stupid shit. A buddy of mine is retiring after 21 yrs of service 7 deployments to iraq and afghaniland, 2x purple hears 2 BSMs 1 with V, and many other commendation and achievement medals and is getting an AFCOM for his retirement medal. Because he doesnt have a CCAF

Me 10 yrs of service 4 deployments to iraq and afghaniland, no purple heart, down graded BSM to ARCOM, along with 5 other commendation and some achievement medals. I'm also getting an AFCOM at my separation thing, not really a ceremony because thats dumb.

Anybody else see the stupidity in a MSgt with 21 yrs and all that stuff getting an AFCOM for retirement?

Well, my last deployment was to Afghanistan and I got nothing, despite a good LOE and praise from the Chief I worked for and I received no medal at all for my 21 years in. Just an Army Comm and 2 AF Achievement medals my whole career. And spent a whole year on a FOB. I did have an attractive shadow box, though! But I also spent my whole career at Barksdale, Lackland, and Elmendorf. Not PCS'ing every 3 years is a career killer!

And that [censored] Colonel Bankston that was the Wing CC in the early 2000's made sure NOBODY got medals for PCS'ing! Yes, I'm calling him out by name!

RobotChicken
08-19-2013, 02:21 AM
The problem is that for the past 20 years, the younger generation is much more coddled and PC'd. Anybody that is straightforward or "telling it like it is", is pretty much considered uncouth or a heartless a'hole!

You can do it in the Army by simply telling your troops and they apply it and move on. But God forbid you give it to somebody straight in the Air Force, unless you want them to end up traumatized or in tears!

"Sad state of affairs in today's US of America, reminds me of more then a 'few' failed States of Government."

wildman
08-19-2013, 06:40 PM
When I retired in 1988 I had a retirement dinner at a local restaurant I was a regular at, the only people there were the ones I had worked with.

I saw what was coming and was glad that I was now retired and did not have to put up with the obvious BS. In my day an AFCOM medal meant something and one did indeed earn it or them, sad to see it has now been apparently trivialized. My old dad had a saying and man is it ever so true "As ye sow so shall ye reap". I think we can see what was sown and what is now being harvested.

Always,
Wildman