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BURAWSKI
07-16-2012, 01:26 AM
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sns-rt-us-usa-military-sexbre86e08b-20120715,0,6430508.story


This looks like it's going to grow into a major scandal for the Air Force.

Tak
07-16-2012, 01:38 AM
Source of downfall: DADT repeal.

One standard falls, others follow, then whole machine breaksdown.

Robert F. Dorr
07-16-2012, 02:22 AM
Never mind ChiefB. Burawski should be CMSAF

efmbman
07-16-2012, 02:35 AM
This looks like it's going to grow into a major scandal for the Air Force.

I am willing to bet that many already consider this a major scandal.

Vrake
07-16-2012, 03:12 AM
I just hope they do a good job on the investigations. Having some come back unsubstantiated is a good sign.

Fry the guilty but don't wreck a career over a false claim from someone who is trying to game the system or being petty.

JD2780
07-16-2012, 03:31 AM
Source of downfall: DADT repeal.

One standard falls, others follow, then whole machine breaksdown.

I think it was the ABU.

SgtS
07-16-2012, 03:39 AM
Source of downfall: DADT repeal.

One standard falls, others follow, then whole machine breaksdown.

Yes, you are absolutely correct ... blame the heterosexual sex assault on the lifting of the ban on homosexuals in the military. Makes PERFECT sense.

Not.

Ass.

tiredretiredE7
07-16-2012, 03:51 AM
Source of downfall: DADT repeal.

One standard falls, others follow, then whole machine breaksdown.

Concur 100%. I had to deal with reports of rampant man on man public kissing when this came out. I just took names and contacted their 1st shirt. Their excuses everytime was "Obama said it is OK now" and this was in early 2009.

Vrake
07-16-2012, 03:52 AM
Jeebus isn't there eleventybillion other threads to discuss DADT?

Seems to be good bait though.

F4CrewChick
07-16-2012, 06:12 AM
Concur 100%. I had to deal with reports of rampant man on man public kissing when this came out. I just took names and contacted their 1st shirt. Their excuses everytime was "Obama said it is OK now" and this was in early 2009.
While I agree that lowering standards is problematic, discriminating against a single class of people who by virtue of what legal things they do their private lives is not a "standard" it is bigotry and just plain wrong.

You said, "I had to deal with reports of rampant man on man public kissing..." Did you witness this yourself, or just the 'reports' of the 'rampage?' Your observation that heterosexual male sexual assault on on young women in a subordinate position comes from the repeal of an unjust law is ludicrous.

I do agree that the lowering of standards has a hand in this situation at Lackland, but it wasn't the DADT repeal; it was the SIGNIFICANT LOWERING OF STANDARDS when George W. Bush and Donald Rumsfeld blatantly lowered the standards for enlistment to 'fill the ranks' and did so with men convicted of felony crimes. You want to make a correlation between crime and gays? How about crime and criminals. I advise you to rethink your position. Seriously.

NYC
07-16-2012, 08:06 AM
Concur 100%. I had to deal with reports of rampant man on man public kissing when this came out. I just took names and contacted their 1st shirt. Their excuses everytime was "Obama said it is OK now" and this was in early 2009.

Yup, DADT repeal is the reason the world will soon end. It's like freaking Caligula out here in the Air Force; dudes boning each other in public, ordering frapuccino's, discussing interior design techniques, combing each other's hair. Just the other day I was giving a guy some "feedback" and he was all, "You wanna make out?" and I was like, "With who?" and he was like, "With me, silly!" and I was like, "ummm". I'm scared of all the homos running around trying to rape me...I can see them eyeballing me...I know they want a piece of my overweight, middle-aged ass! Cuz that's all homos wanna do is rape straight guys...it's a fact! They will find you...and they will RAPE YOU! Just separate or retire now before it's too late and you become a homo, too!

Absinthe Anecdote
07-16-2012, 10:20 AM
Source of downfall: DADT repeal.

One standard falls, others follow, then whole machine breaksdown.

I like my beer cold...my TV loud...and my homosexuals flaming.

tiredretiredE7
07-16-2012, 10:55 AM
Yup, DADT repeal is the reason the world will soon end. It's like freaking Caligula out here in the Air Force; dudes boning each other in public, ordering frapuccino's, discussing interior design techniques, combing each other's hair. Just the other day I was giving a guy some "feedback" and he was all, "You wanna make out?" and I was like, "With who?" and he was like, "With me, silly!" and I was like, "ummm". I'm scared of all the homos running around trying to rape me...I can see them eyeballing me...I know they want a piece of my overweight, middle-aged ass! Cuz that's all homos wanna do is rape straight guys...it's a fact! They will find you...and they will RAPE YOU! Just separate or retire now before it's too late and you become a homo, too!

The most popular gay men's version of porn is a gay guy having sex with a heterosexual guys; willing or unwillingly, FYI. The outbreak of heterosexual porn due to internet access in early 2000 has been blamed on the increased sexual assaults against women so with the current popular form of gay porn is gay guy/straight guy; you can draw your own conclusions if straight men are at risk in the AF. The rate of man on man rape in the AF has been increasing since 2008 with most of the incidents occurring in a deployed environment. These are some current and relevant facts that you should be aware of as a Chief but I am guessing you did not know until this post.

tiredretiredE7
07-16-2012, 11:07 AM
While I agree that lowering standards is problematic, discriminating against a single class of people who by virtue of what legal things they do their private lives is not a "standard" it is bigotry and just plain wrong.

You said, "I had to deal with reports of rampant man on man public kissing..." Did you witness this yourself, or just the 'reports' of the 'rampage?' Your observation that heterosexual male sexual assault on on young women in a subordinate position comes from the repeal of an unjust law is ludicrous.

I do agree that the lowering of standards has a hand in this situation at Lackland, but it wasn't the DADT repeal; it was the SIGNIFICANT LOWERING OF STANDARDS when George W. Bush and Donald Rumsfeld blatantly lowered the standards for enlistment to 'fill the ranks' and did so with men convicted of felony crimes. You want to make a correlation between crime and gays? How about crime and criminals. I advise you to rethink your position. Seriously.

Witnessed firsthand and turned them to their shirt since they were too stupid to realize their "openness" was placing them in jeopardy of being assaulted by gay bashers. This would have been a very bad incident since DADT hadn't been repealed so the gay guys would have been assaulted and probably investigated for being gay. I never told them this reason but I did tell their shirts why I was calling them about the behavior. Their shirts all thanked me and the gay guys were not prosecuted for "hugging and kissing" each other since that is not a big deal under the UCMJ. The guys who I called their shirt about would often thank me the next time they saw me when they realized I had their safety as the reason for calling their shirt. Who would win if they were assaulted? I would have had a ton of paperwork to complete. My position always took the safety of the individual into consideration so they could continue to execute their part of the mission.

technomage1
07-16-2012, 12:12 PM
To get back to the issue at hand - why is it such a hard concept to grasp that if you're in a position of power, that hot young thing isn't interested in you as a person but what you can do for her? Or, that your interest in her could reasonably be construed as a directive? Either way, the result is bad and that is why we have the rules we do.

I think what disturbs me the most in the whole story is the way the whistleblower was treated at first. That shows a widespread issue and not just a rotten apple.

NYC
07-16-2012, 12:12 PM
Witnessed firsthand and turned them to their shirt since they were too stupid to realize their "openness" was placing them in jeopardy of being assaulted by gay bashers. This would have been a very bad incident since DADT hadn't been repealed so the gay guys would have been assaulted and probably investigated for being gay. I never told them this reason but I did tell their shirts why I was calling them about the behavior. Their shirts all thanked me and the gay guys were not prosecuted for "hugging and kissing" each other since that is not a big deal under the UCMJ. The guys who I called their shirt about would often thank me the next time they saw me when they realized I had their safety as the reason for calling their shirt. Who would win if they were assaulted? I would have had a ton of paperwork to complete. My position always took the safety of the individual into consideration so they could continue to execute their part of the mission.

How about human kindness and caring? That didn't play into your decision at all? Oh wait, they were sub-human gay trash. You say they were "in jeopardy of being assaulted by gay bashers" and your first thought was to get them out of there so they wouldn't lose any time on the job? Not everyone has a narrow-minded view of the world, tired. Go spend some time in the big city. Queers have been living openly for almost half a century now. They're not all evil (just the real horny ones!)

tiredretiredE7
07-16-2012, 12:23 PM
How about human kindness and caring? That didn't play into your decision at all? Oh wait, they were sub-human gay trash. You say they were "in jeopardy of being assaulted by gay bashers" and your first thought was to get them out of there so they wouldn't lose any time on the job? Not everyone has a narrow-minded view of the world, tired. Go spend some time in the big city. Queers have been living openly for almost half a century now. They're not all evil (just the real horny ones!)

You shouldn't call them "sub-human gay trash" they were members of our military community who were contributing the mission. Your calling them "queers" demonstrates your distain for homosexuals in the military and I am very troubled by your attitude since you are in a position of authority. It’s sad to see there are people like you still in the military.

Shrike
07-16-2012, 01:01 PM
I like my beer cold...my TV loud...and my homosexuals flaming.

You're such a Homer.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-16-2012, 02:23 PM
You're such a Homer.

Thanks!

7 out of 10 of my lasts posts have been Homer Simpson quotes.

I can move on the something else.

imported_DannyJ
07-16-2012, 02:36 PM
Thanks!

7 out of 10 of my lasts posts have been Homer Simpson quotes.

I can move on the something else.

Peter Griffin?

Tak
07-16-2012, 03:06 PM
Former president- commander in chief can bang young innocent intern in white house and keep his job.

Tak
07-16-2012, 03:09 PM
Yup, DADT repeal is the reason the world will soon end. It's like freaking Caligula out here in the Air Force; dudes boning each other in public, ordering frapuccino's, discussing interior design techniques, combing each other's hair. Just the other day I was giving a guy some "feedback" and he was all, "You wanna make out?" and I was like, "With who?" and he was like, "With me, silly!" and I was like, "ummm". I'm scared of all the homos running around trying to rape me...I can see them eyeballing me...I know they want a piece of my overweight, middle-aged ass! Cuz that's all homos wanna do is rape straight guys...it's a fact! They will find you...and they will RAPE YOU! Just separate or retire now before it's too late and you become a homo, too!
I like your avatar...one dog looking this way, other doing looking that way, guy saying wadda ya want from me.

NYC
07-16-2012, 03:21 PM
I like your avatar...one dog looking this way, other doing looking that way, guy saying wadda ya want from me.

Greatest movie EVER! Not to sound "gay" or anything but your "The Shining" avatar ain't too bad either.

Nic
07-16-2012, 08:14 PM
2 things.
1. Friend of mine was a TI till '11 i asked him about if he ever "had the urge" to go at it with a female trainee. His response
Hell NO. They stink they wear no makeup and they are all ugly. Yeah once they clean up they look ALOT better but when they are trainees they are very homely.
2. Taking a piss today and in front of the urinal there was a paper (Usually QA flashes) asking if you were sexually assaulted in BT OR Tech school and if you were to call some #.

Robert F. Dorr
07-16-2012, 08:18 PM
2 things.
1. Friend of mine was a TI till '11 i asked him about if he ever "had the urge" to go at it with a female trainee. His response
Hell NO. They stink they wear no makeup and they are all ugly. Yeah once they clean up they look ALOT better but when they are trainees they are very homely.
2. Taking a piss today and in front of the urinal there was a paper (Usually QA flashes) asking if you were sexually assaulted in BT OR Tech school and if you were to call some #.

You may have noticed that the Navy is eliminating urinals in its ships. They're just getting started but that's the plan. Gender neutrality, you see. Reminds me of movie "About Schmidt" where Jack Nicholson's wife required him to sit. That's right, we're talking gender-neutral latrine ... er ... head ... er ... bathroom ... or whatever it's called nowadays. Next time you do this, remember to pull the seat up.

BENDER56
07-16-2012, 08:32 PM
The most popular gay men's version of porn is a gay guy having sex with a heterosexual guys; willing or unwillingly, FYI.

You know a lot about gay stuff, don't you?

Shrike
07-16-2012, 08:35 PM
You know a lot about gay stuff, don't you?

I thought the same thing.

Personally I think he's just using some pseudo-serious bait in order to see how many fish he can hook.

Tak
07-16-2012, 08:47 PM
Their gonna interview 20,000 AF women, should be interesting

Tak
07-16-2012, 08:50 PM
When I was in basic 92, you had a witness with you anytime
Anything involved a female. Saw same thing whole 20 yrs.

VFFSSGT
07-16-2012, 08:52 PM
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sns-rt-us-usa-military-sexbre86e08b-20120715,0,6430508.story


This looks like it's going to grow into a major scandal for the Air Force.

American Media...always trying to make crap worst than it is. This article mentions the 35 that have been remove from instructor status but fails to mention they were not all caused by sexual relations. :frusty

Shrike
07-16-2012, 10:43 PM
American Media...always trying to make crap worst than it is. This article mentions the 35 that have been remove from instructor status but fails to mention they were not all caused by sexual relations. :frusty

We wouldn't want the great masses to use actual facts to form an educated opinion, now would we?

Robert F. Dorr
07-17-2012, 01:35 AM
American Media...always trying to make crap worst than it is. This article mentions the 35 that have been remove from instructor status but fails to mention they were not all caused by sexual relations. :frusty

Actually, they were. All of us were.

BURAWSKI
07-17-2012, 01:52 AM
It appears that all of the 35 instructors that were removed had some association with the misconduct. All of the misconduct does not necessarily have to involve sexual relations. It could be complicity or conspiring to cover it up or something else. The investigation is still continuing.

BRUWIN
07-17-2012, 01:59 AM
American Media...always trying to make crap worst than it is. This article mentions the 35 that have been remove from instructor status but fails to mention they were not all caused by sexual relations. :frusty

Well the AF is ok with that...it's enlisted after all. If this were officers there would be no press releases and the only place we'd be able to read about it is military corruption.com

BURAWSKI
07-17-2012, 02:01 AM
Ahhh, but the times, they are a changin!

VFFSSGT
07-17-2012, 05:18 AM
Well the AF is ok with that...it's enlisted after all. If this were officers there would be no press releases and the only place we'd be able to read about it is military corruption.com

It was even on NBC Nightly News tonight...while they sensationalized the story with some fat slobby looking former Air Force female that was a "victim" and on a crusade to save all female recruits now from all the evil men in the world...they didn't try to manipulate the 35 number.

VFFSSGT
07-17-2012, 05:18 AM
Well the AF is ok with that...it's enlisted after all. If this were officers there would be no press releases and the only place we'd be able to read about it is military corruption.com

It was even on NBC Nightly News tonight...while they sensationalized the story with some fat slobby looking former Air Force female that was a "victim" and on a crusade to save all female recruits now from all the evil men in the world...they didn't try to manipulate the 35 number.

BRUWIN
07-17-2012, 06:39 AM
It was even on NBC Nightly News tonight...while they sensationalized the story with some fat slobby looking former Air Force female that was a "victim" and on a crusade to save all female recruits now from all the evil men in the world...they didn't try to manipulate the 35 number.

I thought all the victims were still in the military?

VFFSSGT
07-17-2012, 07:07 AM
I thought all the victims were still in the military?

Oh she wasn't a victim of a TI...she was supposedly a victim of a recruiter. So...she really had nothing to do with the story at hand, but to make it more emotional.

sweep_the_leg
07-17-2012, 02:51 PM
It was even on NBC Nightly News tonight...while they sensationalized the story with some fat slobby looking former Air Force female that was a "victim" and on a crusade to save all female recruits now from all the evil men in the world...they didn't try to manipulate the 35 number.

It's gone well beyond our national news...

http://www.aljazeera.com/video/americas/2012/07/201271705149374215.html

VFFSSGT
07-17-2012, 05:27 PM
It's gone well beyond our national news...

http://www.aljazeera.com/video/americas/2012/07/201271705149374215.html

nice... :doh

maybe they are just jealous becuase our TI's got 72 virgins in this life. :loco

Robert F. Dorr
07-17-2012, 09:11 PM
Can it be true that the Marine Corps doesn't have female drill instructors? A letter in Marine Corps Times suggests why:

"Women raise a man's sexual desire when training together and it changes his focus to the detriment of everyone..."

Maybe it's time to drag out that chemical they used to put in the food. What was that called?

MACHINE666
07-17-2012, 10:23 PM
Can it be true that the Marine Corps doesn't have female drill instructors? A letter in Marine Corps Times suggests why:

"Women raise a man's sexual desire when training together and it changes his focus to the detriment of everyone..."

Maybe it's time to drag out that chemical they used to put in the food. What was that called?

Vitamins?

Or HORMONES?!?!

(Just remember you can't hear a vitamin!)

:D :D :D :D :D

NYC
07-18-2012, 09:48 AM
Can it be true that the Marine Corps doesn't have female drill instructors? A letter in Marine Corps Times suggests why:

"Women raise a man's sexual desire when training together and it changes his focus to the detriment of everyone..."

Maybe it's time to drag out that chemical they used to put in the food. What was that called?

Potassium nitrate is one of several nitrogen-containing compounds collectively referred to as saltpeter. Potassium nitrate was once thought to induce impotence, and is still falsely rumored to be in institutional food (such as military fare) as an anaphrodisiac; however, there is no scientific evidence for such properties. And yes, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

I say split 'em up for 6-8 weeks (however the hell long Basic Training is). What's the big deal? Let 'em go at it like rabbits at Tech School. And anyone with the scruples (or lack thereof) to hit that musty, crusty swamp cootch at Lackland ain't playin' with a full deck, anyhows...

Robert F. Dorr
07-18-2012, 10:49 AM
Potassium nitrate is one of several nitrogen-containing compounds collectively referred to as saltpeter. Potassium nitrate was once thought to induce impotence, and is still falsely rumored to be in institutional food (such as military fare) as an anaphrodisiac; however, there is no scientific evidence for such properties. And yes, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

I say split 'em up for 6-8 weeks (however the hell long Basic Training is). What's the big deal? Let 'em go at it like rabbits at Tech School. And anyone with the scruples (or lack thereof) to hit that musty, crusty swamp cootch at Lackland ain't playin' with a full deck, anyhows...

This is very informative and very sensible. The terms "potassium nitrate" and "saltpeter" were in my mind but I didn't look them up and wasn't certain. In days past, everyone knew -- they knew -- the stuff was in the fare offered by the mess hall. Okay, so it wasn't but everybody knew it anyway. Apparently the Marine Corps does split them up by gender in basic training. Now, "crusty swamp crotch" is not an easy phrase to create so you win a big salute for that.

Shrike
07-18-2012, 12:47 PM
This is very informative and very sensible. The terms "potassium nitrate" and "saltpeter" were in my mind but I didn't look them up and wasn't certain. In days past, everyone knew -- they knew -- the stuff was in the fare offered by the mess hall. Okay, so it wasn't but everybody knew it anyway. Apparently the Marine Corps does split them up by gender in basic training. Now, "crusty swamp crotch" is not an easy phrase to create so you win a big salute for that.

Not "crotch", Bob. The word is "cootch".

Robert F. Dorr
07-18-2012, 12:54 PM
Not "crotch", Bob. The word is "cootch".

You mean I write about the Air Force all day every day and I still have difficulty understanding simple terms that everybody uses? In this case, can't claim not to have known the writer's intent. Must bone up, no pun intended, on my military terminology.

Shrike
07-18-2012, 12:56 PM
You mean I write about the Air Force all day every day and I still have difficulty understanding simple terms that everybody uses? In this case, can't claim not to have known the writer's intent. Must bone up, no pun intended, on my military terminology.

It's not a military term, it's a vagislangical term.

Robert F. Dorr
07-18-2012, 12:59 PM
It's not a military term, it's a vagislangical term.

Now you're doing what I do. Wipe the lack of expression off that straight face. And tell me what BK means.

Robert F. Dorr
07-18-2012, 07:20 PM
Not "crotch", Bob. The word is "cootch".

Crotch
Cootch
Botch
Ooops

Banned
07-18-2012, 07:37 PM
Can it be true that the Marine Corps doesn't have female drill instructors? A letter in Marine Corps Times suggests why:

"Women raise a man's sexual desire when training together and it changes his focus to the detriment of everyone..."

Maybe it's time to drag out that chemical they used to put in the food. What was that called?

There are female drill instructors, however they stick to the female platoons. No male DIs in female platoons, and vica versa.

Banned
07-18-2012, 07:38 PM
Oh, and I find the phrasing "widening sex" to be offensive and graphic.

Pullinteeth
02-21-2013, 07:41 PM
One case got tossed...not because he was not guilty...because of how the evidence was collected;

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2013/02/ap-case-against-lackland-mti-samuel-wicks-dropped-evidence-022113

Pullinteeth
03-15-2013, 08:02 PM
And another one pled guilty (to everything but the rape charge)...

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2013/03/air-force-mti-soto-pleads-guilty-to-some-charges-031513w/

Class5Kayaker
03-15-2013, 08:12 PM
This is what irked me about this particular case:


MTI on trial pleads guilty to several charges

By Kristin Davis - Staff Writer
Posted : Friday Mar 15, 2013 13:13:34 EDT

A former Joint Base San Antonio-Lackland military training instructor pleaded guilty Thursday to wrongful sexual contact, unprofessional relationships and related charges of adultery and making a false official statement but denied that he raped a former recruit.

Staff Sgt. Eddy Soto could receive up to 11 years in prison and a dishonorable discharge on the charges he admitted to at a court-martial at the base. If convicted on the rape charge, to which he pleaded not guilty, he faces up to a life sentence.

The case is still ongoing.

Soto is the 10th MTI to either face a judge or jury in an evolving sexual misconduct scandal at Lackland. One of those had his case dismissed after a judge ruled evidence against him was obtained improperly. The other nine have been convicted on some or all of their charges.

The alleged rape victim testified during an Article 32 hearing in November that she and Soto began a romantic relationship about a year and a half after she finished basic training, the San Antonio Express-News reported. Soto had been her instructor at Lackland in 2010. She testified he raped her when she flew to his home from California in 2011.

“He just started having sex with me,” the newspaper quoted the woman as saying. “I said, ‘No, I’m not ready.’”

Like most of the alleged Lackland victims, she did not report the incident, said Brent Boller, a base spokesman. The Air Force Office of Special Investigations sought the woman out after her name surfaced in connection with Soto’s during a sweeping investigation of basic training soon after the scandal began to unfold.

The woman, who spent about two hours on the stand, also said she returned to San Antonio to visit Soto at least two times following the alleged assault, Boller said.

Rita Chung, a cross-cultural specialist from Virginia’s George Mason University, testified at Soto’s trial that the woman’s actions were consistent with someone influenced by Southeast Asian culture, he said. The former recruit is of Southeast Asian decent.

Chung said the culture places mentors and teachers in high esteem and that victims of sexual assault are sometimes viewed as tainted and could be isolated from their family and community.

The Air Force has identified at least 62 former trainees victimized in the scandal, which ushered in significant changes at basic military training. More than half of those had graduated from BMT at the time of their involvement with trainers, and 11 of the relationships involved no physical contact. Ten of the cases involve allegations of sexual assault.

All but four of the 62 former trainees are women.

This totally screams of OSI "convincing" her she was raped to stack another case against another MTI. What alleged victim flies halfway acros the country on two more separate occassions after she has been allegedly raped by him previously???!!!

tiredretiredE7
03-15-2013, 09:03 PM
This is what irked me about this particular case:



This totally screams of OSI "convincing" her she was raped to stack another case against another MTI. What alleged victim flies halfway acros the country on two more separate occassions after she has been allegedly raped by him previously???!!!

A TI having sex with a trainee is wrong in my book but I do agree with your belief that OSI convinced her she was raped.

Class5Kayaker
03-15-2013, 09:23 PM
A TI having sex with a trainee is wrong in my book but I do agree with your belief that OSI convinced her she was raped.

Agreed.

typingmoretexthere

Pullinteeth
04-26-2013, 08:00 PM
I'm no lawyer but these two things just don't seem to be fair and equitable...

Staff Sgt. Robert Hudson pleaded guilty to having sex with a female basic trainee, adultery, maltreating male basic trainees, making a false official statement and obstruction of justice and was sentenced Thursday to five months in jail, reduction to E-2 and a bad conduct discharge.

Another ex-MTI convicted by a jury one day earlier on 31 counts of cruelty, abuse, wrongful sexual contact and other charges related to the treatment of trainees was reduced just one rank and allowed to stay in the Air Force. Former Tech. Sgt. Bobby Bass physically assaulted male trainees and ordered them to put Icy Hot muscle cream on their genitals; to exercise in their underwear; to crowd into a shower naked with dozens of other trainees.

Guess bumpin uglies is worse than sexual assault or whatever the heck making someone Icy Hot their junk is...