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Anon
07-06-2012, 10:30 PM
Just curious what others are experiancing. I get it for strats and Senior Rater endorsement, but do your units require Course 14 and CCAF completion for MSM's to be given to MSgts when they PCA/PCS?

giggawatt
07-06-2012, 10:32 PM
NOOOOOOOO!!!!!

tiredretiredE7
07-06-2012, 10:38 PM
Just curious what others are experiancing. I get it for strats and Senior Rater endorsement, but do your units require Course 14 and CCAF completion for MSM's to be given to MSgts when they PCA/PCS?

USAFE is leaning towards this requirement. My Wing also marked down the "Training" block on any MSgt who did not have either or both of these requirements. I saw quite a few MSgts get Commendation medals instead of a MSM. The wing would not consider a “push note” if a MSgt had all the requirements for a CCAF but was not awarded the CCAF due to known CCAF issues. The wing would simply respond “tell them to CLEP the required credits”. I am so glad I don’t have to deal with those idiots anymore.

JD2780
07-06-2012, 10:42 PM
Happened to my Sup, last year. He didnt get ANY medal for his PCS although he kept this place afloat for the 2 yrs he was the sup, and the other 2 years he was an awesome instructor

LogDog
07-06-2012, 10:50 PM
Just curious what others are experiancing. I get it for strats and Senior Rater endorsement, but do your units require Course 14 and CCAF completion for MSM's to be given to MSgts when they PCA/PCS?
What does Course 14 or having a CCAF to do with the MSM? The MSM is awarded for outstanding non-combatant meritorious achievement usually covering a 2-year or more period. It's about how well they performed/handled their duties and responsibilities in relation to their rank, the mission, and their use of resources. If you have two MSgts at two different bases doing performing the same functions in an identical manner then why should one get an MSM because they completed Course 14 and probably completed the CCAF a couple of years ago and the other not get an MSM because they haven't completed one or both? It's about their job and leadership performance.

FLAPS
07-06-2012, 10:51 PM
I've seen MSMs denied for SNCOs who've failed to fill their CCAF/Crs 14 squares. This higher standard isn't such a bad thing for an organization that is looking for a little more than just great job performance.

Shrike
07-06-2012, 10:58 PM
The careerists and Kool-Aid slurpers have spent over a decade bending over my USAF and buttf#$king it into the bastardized service we have today.

js7799
07-06-2012, 11:01 PM
What's 'buttfasking?'

Shrike
07-06-2012, 11:10 PM
What's 'buttfasking?'

That's not what I typed. What are you using to view the forum?

Either way, you should ask an elderly schoolteacher to tell you. Whisper it in her ear...

tiredretiredE7
07-06-2012, 11:14 PM
The careerists and Kool-Aid slurpers have spent over a decade bending over my USAF and buttf#$king it into the bastardized service we have today.

Shrike,

Amen, and I am further pi$$ed off that some in these forums continue to embrace the decline instead of trying to fix the problem.

BRUWIN
07-06-2012, 11:15 PM
USAFE is leaning towards this requirement. My Wing also marked down the "Training" block on any MSgt who did not have either or both of these requirements. I saw quite a few MSgts get Commendation medals instead of a MSM. The wing would not consider a “push note” if a MSgt had all the requirements for a CCAF but was not awarded the CCAF due to known CCAF issues. The wing would simply respond “tell them to CLEP the required credits”. I am so glad I don’t have to deal with those idiots anymore.

OK...I'm confused. How can you have completed all the requirements for a CCAF but not get a CCAF because of "known CCAF issues?" What is the known CCAF issue? That you don't have the required credits for a CCAF? Why do I feel that the "known CCAF issues" you mention is the speech requirement? In which case, you haven't completed all the requirements.

When I was in USAFE I had a policy that a MSgt couldn't register for course 12 or complete their CCAF unless they had comleted course 12 or had a CCAF. My CC made me reverse the policy but I was able to hose many MSgt's before he did.

js7799
07-06-2012, 11:16 PM
I saw buttf#$king but read it as buttfasking.

I'll go find some elderly British teacher to whisper it to next week.

tiredretiredE7
07-06-2012, 11:24 PM
BRUWIN,

I am not retyping everything from the previous thread. I know you are trying to bait me and you are very aware of the CCAF issues that exist in the AF.

Hopefully everything is well with you.


OK...I'm confused. How can you have completed all the requirements for a CCAF but not get a CCAF because of "known CCAF issues?" What is the known CCAF issue? That you don't have the required credits for a CCAF? Why do I feel that the "known CCAF issues" you mention is the speech requirement? In which case, you haven't completed all the requirements.

When I was in USAFE I had a policy that a MSgt couldn't register for course 12 or complete their CCAF unless they had comleted course 12 or had a CCAF. My CC made me reverse the policy but I was able to hose many MSgt's before he did.

SgtS
07-06-2012, 11:26 PM
Oh God, here we go again :deadhorse

grimreaper
07-06-2012, 11:27 PM
Just curious what others are experiancing. I get it for strats and Senior Rater endorsement, but do your units require Course 14 and CCAF completion for MSM's to be given to MSgts when they PCA/PCS?

I left Kadena 2 years ago and it was already like that...at least in my unit.

BUDJR8
07-06-2012, 11:45 PM
I've seen it with MSgts, they got marked down on the EPR for lack of Course 14 or CCAF, but got the MSM with a push note...

Absinthe Anecdote
07-07-2012, 12:18 AM
The careerists and Kool-Aid slurpers have spent over a decade bending over my USAF and buttf#$king it into the bastardized service we have today.

You just wish they had done that to you.

Tak
07-07-2012, 12:35 AM
Course 14 and CCAF mean everything to commanders and nothing to enlisted.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-07-2012, 12:47 AM
Course 14 and CCAF mean everything to commanders and nothing to enlisted.

Not true!

How can you be trusted to be a Comittee Chair on a Top 3 fundraiser without Course 14 and a CCAF degree?

Nope, you can't play in any of the Top 3 reindeer games without them.

Tak
07-07-2012, 12:50 AM
Not true!

How can you be trusted to be a Comittee Chair on a Top 3 fundraiser without Course 14 and a CCAF degree?

Nope, you can't play in any of the Top 3 reindeer games without them.

I used to make reindeer game waivers during ori's.

Also I once brought a vhs player an xxx video to a poker party.

KellyinAvon
07-07-2012, 02:12 AM
I've seen MSMs denied for SNCOs who've failed to fill their CCAF/Crs 14 squares. This higher standard isn't such a bad thing for an organization that is looking for a little more than just great job performance.

You're wrong FLAPS. Meritorious Service Medals are recognition for Meritorious Service, not checking a box on an outdated/obsolete (doesn't everyone attend in-residence now?) PME program. As a taxpayer, I want great job performance and for that performance to be recognized. Don't get the senior rater's autograph on the AF Form 911 (or whatever the EPR is)?? Fine. Deny an earned decoration? Serious foul! This is how the bake sale divas and burger-burners have taken over. What's next, 4.0 GPA gets you a LOM?? Wrong! Higher standards my a$$. The standards are upheld when the citation is read and everyone in earshot thinks "This man/woman took care of business." Not "They checked the boxes and filled the squares." Rant over.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-07-2012, 02:29 AM
You're wrong FLAPS. Meritorious Service Medals are recognition for Meritorious Service, not checking a box on an outdated/obsolete (doesn't everyone attend in-residence now?) PME program. As a taxpayer, I want great job performance and for that performance to be recognized. Don't get the senior rater's autograph on the AF Form 911 (or whatever the EPR is)?? Fine. Deny an earned decoration? Serious foul! This is how the bake sale divas and burger-burners have taken over. What's next, 4.0 GPA gets you a LOM?? Wrong! Higher standards my a$$. The standards are upheld when the citation is read and everyone in earshot thinks "This man/woman took care of business." Not "They checked the boxes and filled the squares." Rant over.

Bake sale divas have assumed control. Repeat, bake sale divas have assumed control.

The sad thing is that isn't far from the truth.

JD2780
07-07-2012, 02:34 AM
Bake sale divas have assumed control. Repeat, bake sale divas have assumed control.

The sad thing is that isn't far from the truth.

Whats sad is it IS THE TRUTH.

tiredretiredE7
07-07-2012, 02:37 AM
Whats sad is it IS THE TRUTH.

So who does this mean your future Chiefs will be since TOP 3 is highly regarded by the board? So glad I retired.

Airborne
07-07-2012, 02:42 AM
Know a guy who just put on MSgt and is PCSing after only having it on for a month or so and is being denied an MSM (which is sort of understandable) but is also being denied a AFCOM. He hasnt even had time to do Course 14. I think the whole thing is BS. The whole education thing pisses me off. As an enlisted force, if you want to get education then fine, but dont tie it so closely to promotion. Soon it will be that you cant make Tsgt without a CCAF.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-07-2012, 02:44 AM
Whats sad is it IS THE TRUTH.

Being a bake sale diva can get you promoted; however, it usually catches up to the person.

They normally rise to a position where they are completely over their head and they founder.

Plays hell with the organization though.

FLAPS
07-07-2012, 02:56 AM
You're wrong FLAPS. Meritorious Service Medals are recognition for Meritorious Service, not checking a box on an outdated/obsolete (doesn't everyone attend in-residence now?) PME program. As a taxpayer, I want great job performance and for that performance to be recognized. Don't get the senior rater's autograph on the AF Form 911 (or whatever the EPR is)?? Fine. Deny an earned decoration? Serious foul! This is how the bake sale divas and burger-burners have taken over. What's next, 4.0 GPA gets you a LOM?? Wrong! Higher standards my a$$. The standards are upheld when the citation is read and everyone in earshot thinks "This man/woman took care of business." Not "They checked the boxes and filled the squares." Rant over.

I knew I'd get a bite! Crs 14/CCAF req for MSM can't work because it can be earned by people who 14/CCAF don't apply to (e.g., officers), or in some cases even TSgts who don't even have a line number for MSgt. I've seen officers who haven't completed SOS get an MSM, so how can we hold one group to a different standard? We can't!

JD2780
07-07-2012, 03:18 AM
I knew I'd get a bite! Crs 14/CCAF req for MSM can't work because it can be earned by people who 14/CCAF don't apply to (e.g., officers), or in some cases even TSgts who don't even have a line number for MSgt. I've seen officers who haven't completed SOS get an MSM, so how can we hold one group to a different standard? We can't!

Why is rank associated with decorations? Shouldnt it be accomplishment? No no, what am I thinking? Cant be showing up our SNCOs and O's now can we.

golfer55
07-07-2012, 05:12 AM
Know a guy who just put on MSgt and is PCSing after only having it on for a month or so and is being denied an MSM (which is sort of understandable) but is also being denied a AFCOM. He hasnt even had time to do Course 14. I think the whole thing is BS. The whole education thing pisses me off. As an enlisted force, if you want to get education then fine, but dont tie it so closely to promotion. Soon it will be that you cant make Tsgt without a CCAF.

Since a little while back TSgt's can enroll in course 14. So he had the time to complete it. It only takes a few weeks to complete. But no AFCOM...That's crap

BRUWIN
07-07-2012, 05:50 AM
Why is rank associated with decorations? Shouldnt it be accomplishment? No no, what am I thinking? Cant be showing up our SNCOs and O's now can we.

I made it a rule that those enlisted that had higher decorations than me (MSM) couldn't wear them on blues Monday. We had a few guys with BSMs that complained but it's just how I rolled.

Tak
07-07-2012, 05:53 AM
I knew I'd get a bite! Crs 14/CCAF req for MSM can't work because it can be earned by people who 14/CCAF don't apply to (e.g., officers), or in some cases even TSgts who don't even have a line number for MSgt. I've seen officers who haven't completed SOS get an MSM, so how can we hold one group to a different standard? We can't!

Bite, as in gay.

JD2780
07-07-2012, 05:54 AM
I made it a rule that those enlisted that had higher decorations than me (MSM) couldn't wear them on blues Monday. We had a few guys with BSMs that complained but it's just how I rolled.

You rolled because you were a fat chief that had to be pushed around on a cart by his Airmen!!!

JD2780
07-07-2012, 05:54 AM
I made it a rule that those enlisted that had higher decorations than me (MSM) couldn't wear them on blues Monday. We had a few guys with BSMs that complained but it's just how I rolled.

You rolled because you were a fat chief that had to be pushed around on a cart by his Airmen!!!

KellyinAvon
07-07-2012, 09:31 AM
I knew I'd get a bite! Crs 14/CCAF req for MSM can't work because it can be earned by people who 14/CCAF don't apply to (e.g., officers), or in some cases even TSgts who don't even have a line number for MSgt. I've seen officers who haven't completed SOS get an MSM, so how can we hold one group to a different standard? We can't!

Decs can spin me up in a hurry. There might be some unresolved issues from somewhere in my past.

buryem80
07-07-2012, 09:54 AM
The guy/girl without his course 14/CCAF won't get a senior rater, with no senior rate on his/her EPR"s he/she will not recieve an MSM regardless of how awesome the person is or how long they have been at a particular base. That's just the system and how it plays out now, it has been that way for a few years. Any E-7 and up knows what is required to get a senior rater, if they do it they do it, if they don't playing the blame game doesn't fix the problem.

imported_DannyJ
07-07-2012, 10:30 AM
Decs can spin me up in a hurry. There might be some unresolved issues from somewhere in my past.

Yeah like a SSgt not allowed to get a DMSM because he's not a SNCO? READ THE DAMN CRITERIA!!!!!!

Orion
07-07-2012, 12:50 PM
Just curious what others are experiancing. I get it for strats and Senior Rater endorsement, but do your units require Course 14 and CCAF completion for MSM's to be given to MSgts when they PCA/PCS?


Unfortunately, yes!! Command Chiefs have been under pressure to tighten up the decorations and to focus on Sustained Superior Performance (SSP). An MSM for a MSgt needs to have worn the stripe for at least 75% of the reporting period and it clearly needs to be for SSP. Just spending 4 years at Base-X and doing your job won't get you an MSM.. Don't say I agree, just the direction we seem to be going.

Shrike
07-07-2012, 02:01 PM
You just wish they had done that to you.

Would I get dinner and a movie out of it?

Brewhound
07-07-2012, 02:36 PM
I've seen MSMs denied for SNCOs who've failed to fill their CCAF/Crs 14 squares. This higher standard isn't such a bad thing for an organization that is looking for a little more than just great job performance.

I almost knipped at this, then I saw the Hook. Awesome.

JD2780
07-07-2012, 03:17 PM
The guy/girl without his course 14/CCAF won't get a senior rater, with no senior rate on his/her EPR"s he/she will not recieve an MSM regardless of how awesome the person is or how long they have been at a particular base. That's just the system and how it plays out now, it has been that way for a few years. Any E-7 and up knows what is required to get a senior rater, if they do it they do it, if they don't playing the blame game doesn't fix the problem.

Where does it say you need a SRE to get an MSM? Where does it say you need a SRE to get a 5? It doesnt. The dec system is a joke.

Wndrer
07-07-2012, 03:44 PM
I made it a rule that those enlisted that had higher decorations than me (MSM) couldn't wear them on blues Monday. We had a few guys with BSMs that complained but it's just how I rolled.

The mystery is solved. Bruwin worked Finnance at Randolph AFB!!!

Tak
07-07-2012, 05:02 PM
I got two msm's...who gives a shyte...

Anon
07-09-2012, 05:59 PM
What does Course 14 or having a CCAF to do with the MSM? The MSM is awarded for outstanding non-combatant meritorious achievement usually covering a 2-year or more period. It's about how well they performed/handled their duties and responsibilities in relation to their rank, the mission, and their use of resources. If you have two MSgts at two different bases doing performing the same functions in an identical manner then why should one get an MSM because they completed Course 14 and probably completed the CCAF a couple of years ago and the other not get an MSM because they haven't completed one or both? It's about their job and leadership performance.

Here is where the hang up is. Some would say leadership performance includes things AFI 36-2618 says MSgt 'SHOULD' do (i.e CCAF, Crs 14 and JSNCO PME). I would counter that by saying that AFI 36-2803 specifically forbids setting preconditions for an award. Getting mixed signals from those above me in the chain. On one hand, they say there is no official policy that MSgt's must have these complete to receive an MSM. On the other, getting significant push back on submitting a MSgt for an MSM based only on the fact that he does not have them done. Frustrating.

Tak
07-09-2012, 06:43 PM
3 out of 4 chimpanzee's passed Course 14 when administered test using banana's to replace numbers.

imported_CLSE
07-09-2012, 09:47 PM
What does Course 14 or having a CCAF to do with the MSM? The MSM is awarded for outstanding non-combatant meritorious achievement usually covering a 2-year or more period. It's about how well they performed/handled their duties and responsibilities in relation to their rank, the mission, and their use of resources. If you have two MSgts at two different bases doing performing the same functions in an identical manner then why should one get an MSM because they completed Course 14 and probably completed the CCAF a couple of years ago and the other not get an MSM because they haven't completed one or both? It's about their job and leadership performance.


There you go confusing what's suppsed to happen and reality again...

imported_SergeantJack
07-09-2012, 10:39 PM
Sometimes when a ship is sinking, it's smarter to get into a lifeboat than to continue to bail.

jeepfreek97
07-13-2013, 10:23 AM
I had that happen at my last assignment, I have two CCAFs and had my course 14 done well before I left. But I was told it was not done in a "timely manner", I was told this the day I was driving to my new assignment due to the fact my old sup is a total coward.

His golfing/harley buddy MSgt got his MSM, even thought he didn't have a CCAF. But he was "on track" to get it. I guess it helps to golf with the chief. So I shredded the dec and left it on his desk.

I thought medals were for what you accomplished. Guess not

KC-10 FE
07-13-2013, 02:28 PM
Commanders often make their own requirements for the award of certain medals. In my first unit you couldn't receive a commendation medal unless you had already received an achievement. My second squadron and third both have this rule concerning a MSM.

I think what most forget on here is that commanders are allowed to make a reg more strict than it is written, but can't make it less strict. So depending on his mindset, "should" becomes "must".

It sucks but nothing we can do about it.

Mr. Happy
07-13-2013, 02:57 PM
Since the whole decoration system is inflated and inequitable anyways, I say unless a medal is for valor or heroic action, discontinue applying WAPS points for them. Discontinue handing them out as parting gifts for PCS's. The real reason for the hoopla over getting them or not, is the impact on promotion, and nothing more. No one really cares about getting them for recognition of service; it's just another checkbox towards building a promotion record. If you took away the promotion factor with them, people would care less. They may actually be meaningful to some for family legacy, etc, but for most, I bet not. I my self have accumulated 12 different point medals over my career, and the only ones that mean anything to me are my AFAM and AFCM for outstanding achievement from the AOR. The PCS going away MSM medals...nothing. They are just duty descriptions.

We are really spoiled when it comes to medals as a service. I remember having a Navy E-8 guy in my SNCOA class, and he was baffled that every single AF SNCO in that class had a MSM on their racks. My dad did 20 years in the Navy with multiple Vietnam tours, earned a Combat Action Ribbon, made Master Chief, and he had ZERO other medals that would equate to points in today's military. The MSM is a DoD medal, so why would one service rate them easier than others? It would seem the criteria would be the same and just as stringent. Guess not.

I would institute a 3 year TIS decoration review for all medals for meritorious service regardless of how many assignments one may have in that 3 years. Everyone would get considered at the same third year of TIS for a medal every 3 years of service. So if you do 5 assignments in 9 years, you only get considered for decorations for meritorious service three times in that period (3rd, 6th and 9th year TIS). If you spend 9years at one base, you get considered at the same TIS milestones. For those who have multiple assignments for the 3 year period, allow the use of accomplishments from any LOE or EPR regardless of the unit of assignment for the citation as long as it falls within the 3 year period. Problem solved.

TWilliams
07-14-2013, 07:29 AM
Just curious what others are experiancing. I get it for strats and Senior Rater endorsement, but do your units require Course 14 and CCAF completion for MSM's to be given to MSgts when they PCA/PCS?

My MSM was downgraded to a AFCOM because I was one class shy of getting my CCAF when I PCS'd. I tried to CLEP it, but failed by 5 points. I was a TSgt filling a MSgt position and appreciated my Sq Superintendent putting me in for it but the group Chief said that sustained superior performance means not only superior job performance but also no PT failures, and CCAF/Course14 for an MSM. I wasn't expecting an MSM as a TSgt anyway, but I bet that would have helped my board score when I go up for SMSgt. I did not see a requirement for CCAF in the AFI though but I think it is just the Chief trying to fight EPR inflation by limiting decorations and using personal preferences to discriminate who is deserving or not.

CJSmith
07-14-2013, 09:44 AM
I've worked with two different O's that received a MSM for doing exec duty for the Grp CC for a year. Meanwhile, lowly enlisted get their stuff knocked down after doing 3+ years w/ 0 disqualifiers and superb performance. Dafuq?

BRUWIN
07-14-2013, 10:42 AM
Commanders often make their own requirements for the award of certain medals. In my first unit you couldn't receive a commendation medal unless you had already received an achievement.

I've ran into that rule a few times and it always perplexed me. I always figured the perfomance drove the dec, not the level of decs you've received previously. I don't know who ever came up with it but maybe that's why there hasn't been an AF enlisted MoH since Vietnam...you have to have the Air Force Cross first.

Chief_KO
07-14-2013, 01:11 PM
Commanders often make their own requirements for the award of certain medals. In my first unit you couldn't receive a commendation medal unless you had already received an achievement. My second squadron and third both have this rule concerning a MSM.

Guess that is the unintended consequence of officers having availability to the PDG...they memorize the order of precedence chart (they are visual learners after all...)

I've seen that usually come up when putting a team (including the MSgt supv) in for an AFAM. It is always asked "Won't the board look down on a SNCO getting an AFAM...short answer: NO, because the reason is for "OUTSTANDING ACHIEVEMENT" over a short period of time. Never experienced that blanket policy at any of my bases...thankfully

TWilliams
07-14-2013, 04:51 PM
Why do we even have an AFI for issuing decs if it is not followed? I think if the Air Force could fix the EPR inflation problem, then we would see less shenanigans with decs.

imported_oih82w8
07-17-2013, 08:59 PM
I would not count on anything being required for anything anymore. Just when you think that you filled all of the "squares", another is penciled into the equation.

Juggs
07-18-2013, 02:04 AM
I heard a chief say when they read the medal write ups, if its for meritorious service its for doing your job, and if its for outstanding achievement its for going above and beyond.

p5150
08-11-2013, 12:55 AM
How about people that are retiring? How many people here have seen SNCOs get denied a MSM for retirement because they didnt fill the blocks? I get the point for PCS and PCA because the MSM can weigh in on the board to determine if you will be selected for Sr, but for a retirement, why does a CBT matter?

On the flip side though, getting a CCAF AAS degree and finishing the course 14 isn't difficult. Anyone who says otherwise is just making excuses.....