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tiredretiredE7
06-27-2012, 09:53 PM
Here is an update on the story:

http://www.stripes.com/news/two-more-air-force-trainers-charged-in-growing-sex-scandal-1.181528

Here is the meat of the story:

Master Sgt. Jamey Crawford was charged with having a sexual relationship with a basic trainee, giving her alcohol and committing adultery. Tech. Sgt. Christopher Smith was charged with trying to develop a sexual relationship with a trainee, making advances toward her, having a personal social relationship with a second woman and obstructing justice.
TI are supposed to be screened prior their selection for the instructor position. I am guessing that these two clowns were in the CoC of the previously charged instructors. Eitherway, there are more under investigation and this is a bad day of many to come for the AF.

So any takers on how long until the AF is rolled back into the Army? I am guessing 2016 but there will be firings at the most senior levels of AF prior to the actual assimilation of the AF by the Army.

Bunch
06-27-2012, 10:06 PM
From what I'm hearing this is just going to get bigger and bigger. Everyone on special duty on AETC as recruiter, MTI, MTL and all other jobs that deal with applicants or trainees has a big target on their back. There's going to be IG and criminal investigations coming left and right from what I'm hearing.

Not a good time to be in any of those jobs right now. If this spreads to other squadrons in BMT or other commands within AETC I would have a hard time believing Gen. Rice will survive this, which is a shame.

Medic0721
06-27-2012, 10:07 PM
SNCOs are involved now, it's a conspiracy!

I do not understand, who wants to do that with them? They smell the whole time cuz they dont have their shit trimmed/shaved. I already know what BRUWIN and Shrike are going to say....

Shrike
06-27-2012, 10:09 PM
SNCOs are involved now, it's a conspiracy!

I do not understand, who wants to do that with them? They smell the whole time cuz they dont have their shit trimmed/shaved. I already know what BRUWIN and Shrike are going to say....

I just want to know if they have CCAF degrees or not.

tiredretiredE7
06-27-2012, 10:14 PM
I just want to know if they have CCAF degrees or not.


Shrike,

Instructor special duties require a CCAF due to the difficulties of going to college in such a strenuous environment (pun intended).

F4CrewChick
06-27-2012, 10:16 PM
From the article:

“The nature of their position grants [instructors] a great deal of authority over young and impressionable recruits,” said Rep. Mike Turner, an Ohio Republican who serves on the House Armed Service Committee, in a statement (http://turner.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=300956).“During this process, recruits should be learning the leadership values requisite to build the finest Air Force in the world,” he said Tuesday. “Instead, it appears that a systemic breakdown led to the creation of an environment that harbored the basest level of criminal activity at an unimaginable scale.”Honestly, I can't believe the scale of this stuff military-wide. What the hell is going on with military men?

tiredretiredE7
06-27-2012, 10:22 PM
From the article:Honestly, I can't believe the scale of this stuff military-wide. What the hell is going on with military men?

There is a severe shortage of heterosexual women in the AF but there is an abundance of lesbians. Don't worry, it should only be about 4 more years until the AF is assimilated by people from the LGBT community (who have their CCAF) and then there won't be any more problems.

efmbman
06-27-2012, 10:24 PM
From the article:Honestly, I can't believe the scale of this stuff military-wide. What the hell is going on with military men?

I am not so sure this behavior is unique to military men. Sadly, more is expected of military men - especially those in a postition to influence "young and impressionable" trainees. It makes me sick to be honest. Leadership could not have fallen farther down there at Lackland.

BRUWIN
06-27-2012, 10:27 PM
The other thing these knuckleheads did is open the door for any trainee with an axe to grind to go ahead and throw out false accusations the first time things don't go their way. I wouldn't take this job for all the money in the world right now...those guys doing the job the right way are going to have their hands tied and those trainees with no scruples will have the upper hand.

Bunch
06-27-2012, 10:30 PM
From the article:Honestly, I can't believe the scale of this stuff military-wide. What the hell is going on with military men?

All I can say is that this people are sick and should be punish to the fullest extent of the law. As a recruiter I'm already getting the questions :"Is it true that girls get raped at basic"? I don't know what the backlash is going to be from the schools we go... Are they going to allow us in thinking we all some kind of perverts?

This is not good and in terms of recruiting can be devastating for the AF.

Tak
06-27-2012, 10:36 PM
Who would want to be a TI after this?
No more bennies.

jarhead dad
06-27-2012, 10:37 PM
Maybe the majority of these issue could be solved by doing BMT like the Marines do, segregated boot camp. There is no reason for males and females recruits to interact in basic training, or have instructors of the opposite sex.

I would like to see a study or statistics that show if the army or air force form of integrated basic is more likely to have sexual misconduct cases verses segregated basic training.

Just seems like this issue is happening far more than it should be, and that the best solution is revert to the way it used to be done.

Bunch
06-27-2012, 10:39 PM
The other thing these knuckleheads did is open the door for any trainee with an axe to grind to go ahead and throw out false accusations the first time things don't go their way. I wouldn't take this job for all the money in the world right now...those guys doing the job the right way are going to have their hands tied and those trainees with no scruples will have the upper hand.

I don't think so... This is a situation where you can throw the "truth will always come out" argument.

As a recruiter I have been on the receiving end of two complaints of applicants saying in BMT trying to use the "my recruiter told me..." argument. Peole that investigate this things at Lackland are very good at handling this complaints and can know from the beginning if the applicants are full of shit and just want to be sent back home or if it is a legitimate complaint. If a recruiter, MTI, MTL has done no wrong there would be no foul.

F4CrewChick
06-27-2012, 10:41 PM
There is a severe shortage of heterosexual women in the AF but there is an abundance of lesbians. Don't worry, it should only be about 4 more years until the AF is assimilated by people from the LGBT community (who have their CCAF) and then there won't be any more problems.If there is an abundance of lesbians in the AF, I'm telling you I would have known about it. I take it your response was somewhat tongue-in-cheek but nonetheless, the sexual misconduct is really getting out of hand.

Bunch
06-27-2012, 10:42 PM
Who would want to be a TI after this?
No more bennies.

There will always find people for this jobs because of location. A lot of peole get recruited from the state of Texas and the idea of going back home is always there. Also the ones that like the power trip that comes with the position. I do feel bad for the ones who do it for legitimate reasons.

F4CrewChick
06-27-2012, 10:46 PM
I am not so sure this behavior is unique to military men. Sadly, more is expected of military men - especially those in a postition to influence "young and impressionable" trainees. It makes me sick to be honest. Leadership could not have fallen farther down there at Lackland.I am not assuming it is limited to military men at all and I do expect more from military men. I agree with your assessment of leadership and this spate of crimes seems at least partially due to poor leadership at the company grade level and probably higher. I saddens me as well.

Tak
06-27-2012, 10:47 PM
"It was an order" didn't work for Mi Li incident
In Vietnam.

VFFSSGT
06-27-2012, 10:48 PM
From what I'm hearing this is just going to get bigger and bigger. Everyone on special duty on AETC as recruiter, MTI, MTL and all other jobs that deal with applicants or trainees has a big target on their back. There's going to be IG and criminal investigations coming left and right from what I'm hearing.

Not a good time to be in any of those jobs right now. If this spreads to other squadrons in BMT or other commands within AETC I would have a hard time believing Gen. Rice will survive this, which is a shame.

I hate the squadron commander got fired, unless they had proof he knew and did nothing...which is hard to believe but not impossible. Commander firings are often nothing more than political.

One thing I always hate about the AF is them blaming everyone for something but those at fault.

tiredretiredE7
06-27-2012, 10:51 PM
If there is an abundance of lesbians in the AF, I'm telling you I would have known about it. I take it your response was somewhat tongue-in-cheek but nonetheless, the sexual misconduct is really getting out of hand.


I just caught your "tongue-in-cheek" pun and it made me laugh. There were alot of younger lesbians in the AF. You can search for them in whatever the current military gay community site is. I think you will be surprised.

Tak
06-27-2012, 10:51 PM
Maybe the majority of these issue could be solved by doing BMT like the Marines do, segregated boot camp. There is no reason for males and females recruits to interact in basic training, or have instructors of the opposite sex.

I would like to see a study or statistics that show if the army or air force form of integrated basic is more likely to have sexual misconduct cases verses segregated basic training.

Just seems like this issue is happening far more than it should be, and that the best solution is revert to the way it used to be done.

Never change systems due to situations.
-Tak

Tak
06-27-2012, 10:54 PM
There will always find people for this jobs because of location. A lot of peole get recruited from the state of Texas and the idea of going back home is always there. Also the ones tha
t like the power trip that comes with the position. I do feel bad for the ones who do it for legitimate reasons.

Guess you missed my "bennies" joke.

VFFSSGT
06-27-2012, 10:55 PM
The other thing these knuckleheads did is open the door for any trainee with an axe to grind to go ahead and throw out false accusations the first time things don't go their way. I wouldn't take this job for all the money in the world right now...those guys doing the job the right way are going to have their hands tied and those trainees with no scruples will have the upper hand.

Looks like we need chaperones like the Secret Service.

Maybe we can be a joint service with them too and issue JET orders to their chaperones?!

Or we could hire a bunch of GS-4's to act as chaperones...


From the article:Honestly, I can't believe the scale of this stuff military-wide. What the hell is going on with military men?

Why the 'outrage' against men? We are human beings. It is natural to develop feelings for the opposite sex and act on those feelings, especially after spending 14+ hours a day for several weeks with the people.

I don't think the problem would be so widespread if the AF didn't demand TI's spend 14+ hour days for several weeks with recruits. Each flight should have 2 TI's at a minimum.

BRUWIN
06-27-2012, 11:05 PM
I don't think so... This is a situation where you can throw the "truth will always come out" argument.



Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying they'd be found guilty. However, just an investigation can take awhile and it puts the accused's reputation at risk. Most would do anything to avoid an investigation...innocent or guilty. Trainees will now know this.

F4CrewChick
06-27-2012, 11:05 PM
I just caught your "tongue-in-cheek" pun and it made me laugh. There were alot of younger lesbians in the AF. You can search for them in whatever the current military gay community site is. I think you will be surprised.
Well Sir, you could be right; I was in a relationship my last eight years in. I will say though, there is this thing in the military among GLB folks called "The Family." We seem to find each other regardless of rank or duty section. Over my 22 years, I didn't really see the ratio of straight-to-gay change much, though I did see attitudes of younger members become more relaxed as the gay rights train gathered steam over the years. Seems in the AF, that there are 8 straight girls to every one lesbian. The other branches are different though I think. The AF to the Army is like volleyball vs. softball I think; volleyball has mostly straight girls and softball teams are brimming with lesbians. I played volleyball for the AF btw...

efmbman
06-27-2012, 11:16 PM
I am not assuming it is limited to military men at all and I do expect more from military men. I agree with your assessment of leadership and this spate of crimes seems at least partially due to poor leadership at the company grade level and probably higher. I saddens me as well.

Agreed... and I would look very hard at the company grade level if I was the investigator. There should be nothing happening or not happening without the knowledge of the company grade leadership.

Smeghead
06-27-2012, 11:18 PM
Who would want to be a TI after this?

I would. Oh, wait ...

Absinthe Anecdote
06-27-2012, 11:32 PM
I would. Oh, wait ...

How many years have you been a TI?

F4CrewChick
06-27-2012, 11:47 PM
Agreed... and I would look very hard at the company grade level if I was the investigator. There should be nothing happening or not happening without the knowledge of the company grade leadership.My thoughts exactly.

F4CrewChick
06-27-2012, 11:55 PM
Why the 'outrage' against men? We are human beings. It is natural to develop feelings for the opposite sex and act on those feelings, especially after spending 14+ hours a day for several weeks with the people.

I don't think the problem would be so widespread if the AF didn't demand TI's spend 14+ hour days for several weeks with recruits. Each flight should have 2 TI's at a minimum.It is NOT natural to act out on those feelings in a sexually abusive way. TI's are in a unique position of power over recruits and there is NO EXCUSE for this type of behavior. My outrage is at the men and those of either sex that cover up such acts. I love men (not romantically but in every other way), if I didn't, why the hell would I hang out here? I have worked with men my entire life and prefer working with males. I have had the honor of working with some of the most decent, outstanding human beings ever during my time in service--I wouldn't change a thing, which is why I am so disappointed by the knowledge that some number, which seems on the rise, of the class of men I respect the most in the world,have behaved in such a dishonorable way.

Smeghead
06-28-2012, 12:14 AM
It is NOT natural to act out on those feelings in a sexually abusive way. TI's are in a unique position of power over recruits and there is NO EXCUSE for this type of behavior...

Don't often agree with what you write, but I guess there's a first time for everything.

It's in no way natural to develop feelings for trainees. VFF you couldn't be more wrong. Your answer seems to excuse this behavior, apparently it's not the NCO's faults but the Air Force's.

Setting up to teach in a squadron today I watched a female flight march by. Know what I saw? Kids. Little girls. There's never an excuse to cross that line. Regardless of how long we spend with them. How low a manned we are. Never. It's wrong on every level. I want to punch every one of those instructors for tarnishing the hat I worked so hard to earn.

Smeghead
06-28-2012, 12:15 AM
How many years have you been a TI?

Three years

F4CrewChick
06-28-2012, 01:08 AM
Don't often agree with what you write, but I guess there's a first time for everything.

It's in no way natural to develop feelings for trainees. VFF you couldn't be more wrong. Your answer seems to excuse this behavior, apparently it's not the NCO's faults but the Air Force's.

Setting up to teach in a squadron today I watched a female flight march by. Know what I saw? Kids. Little girls. There's never an excuse to cross that line. Regardless of how long we spend with them. How low a manned we are. Never. It's wrong on every level. I want to punch every one of those instructors for tarnishing the hat I worked so hard to earn.Right backtacha Smeg--first time for everything. I agree with your assessment of the situation. I was at Lackland from '04-'07 and ALL the recruits look like kids. Anyone in a position of of power over them (which is to say almost everyone) should never take the trust they have instill in us and especially their instructors, breach that trust with bad behavior.

VFFSSGT
06-28-2012, 02:18 AM
Don't often agree with what you write, but I guess there's a first time for everything.

It's in no way natural to develop feelings for trainees. VFF you couldn't be more wrong. Your answer seems to excuse this behavior, apparently it's not the NCO's faults but the Air Force's.

Setting up to teach in a squadron today I watched a female flight march by. Know what I saw? Kids. Little girls. There's never an excuse to cross that line. Regardless of how long we spend with them. How low a manned we are. Never. It's wrong on every level. I want to punch every one of those instructors for tarnishing the hat I worked so hard to earn.

Not excusing..they are at fault and responsible for their actions.

But at the same time, I'm not surprised or shocked by the behavior...at the end of the day, it seems most of the girls were consenting adults playing the innocent victim role.

I do think if TI's had more of a home life...we wouldn't see this in the numbers we do. But as with most things, the AF abuses and works its people into ground.

SF7
06-28-2012, 02:52 AM
Smeghead -

I'm here at Lackland for another day and a half...thought about trying to shadow a TI while I was here but given the current environment...figured I would skip on it.

Bunch
06-28-2012, 03:12 AM
But at the same time, I'm not surprised or shocked by the behavior...at the end of the day, it seems most of the girls were consenting adults playing the innocent victim role.

You don't seem to understand what is at play here.

If a TI ask a trainee to come at 2am to CQ and tells her to suck his tool what are the options the trainee has at that point? Who is in a position of authority?

In regards at contact after a recruit has graduated basic. At least we recruiters are told that once a person walks though our door and ask for information you can't engage socially with that person... At all!! It doesn't matter the age!! It's unprofessional! Ever heard of that one on the PDG... Unprofessional relationships? Who's held responsible? The applicant? The trainee? Or the 14 TIS TSgt who knows the rules but try to get his/her freak on?

It is briefed to us, its drill to our heads time and time again... Don't do it!.. It's not worth it! And still you have people that do it... Married people with sons, daughters, almost a few years out of retirement... It just inexcusable.

VFFSSGT
06-28-2012, 03:59 AM
I do understand 'what is at play.' I just don't find this 'shocking' or 'appalling' nor do I believe these people are some evil sexual deviants - could they be? Sure...anything is possible, but without all of the facts of the case, I must withhold that judgement. Should they be held accountable? Absolutely.

Did they disobey orders and abuse position? Sure, but Bill Clinton set the standard on sexual relations. Our Congress is corrupt and inept, that is more appalling...sending our country down the tubes. We have elected leaders and senior military officials almost always in some "sexual scandal" or some other scandal and seemingly get away with it more times than not.

Looking at human behavior in general, it is normal to be attracted to a person of the opposite sex. More so visually for men and emotionally for women. Once attracted and prolong interactions have occurred, it is normal for feelings to develop. And on from there.

Were they trained to act otherwise? Sure. Did they fail at being a perfect human being? Sure. Should we arbitrarily fire commanders and have "shocking" outrage at this moral disgust? Sure...why not.

Or we could look at some common sense measures to prevent this...

1) TI's shouldn't spend 14+ hours a day 7 days a week...the work load should be split so they can have a personal life.
2) Trainees shouldn't be allowed out of the dorm after "lights out" unless there is an evacuation. Emergencies can be handled by the TI on duty by going up to the dorm were there are plenty of people - if it's an emergency notification, you will have a commander and Chaplin with you anyways.
3) Trainees shouldn't be allowed to have cell phones so the offline communications cannot happen with the TI's; they should have to be stored with battery out in your personal bag with no access like they were 10 years ago.
4) TI's should have private facebook pages were trainees cannot find them - certainly shouldn't friend them on there. I don't think any supervisor should friend any subordinate on fb.

Simple stuff really. To this day, I won't go behind a closed door with a female at work without a third party present...it's all about protecting yourself. I have seen the result of false accusations before... So, some rules should be set up to protect the TI's and the trainees and to remove the temptation.

One of the cases that the AFT highlighted in the paper the other week...it seemed as if the trainee didn't have a problem with the sex until she found out the TI was married. Jealousy is a b!@tch. It was like she was playing innocent victim after that...it was even quoted in her own words about how she felt after she learned he was married.

Tak
06-28-2012, 05:01 AM
Before graduation at lowry afb in Dec 92, our class critique meeting brought out several girls
Invited to army instructors homes, not sure who did what, but as a class we decided to not
Hurt their careers and honestly don't think girls were scorned, more embarassed.
Never told this since then, just never came up. This stuff happens. My tech school had all services
And I can tell you later upon working with navy, they are less concerned with unprofessional
Relationship issues. Teacher and student was always the big no no, everyone knows that.
I see a huge difference between unprofessional sex and rape.

F4CrewChick
06-28-2012, 05:15 AM
VFFSSGT said:1) TI's shouldn't spend 14+ hours a day 7 days a week...the work load should be split so they can have a personal life.
2) Trainees shouldn't be allowed out of the dorm after "lights out" unless there is an evacuation. Emergencies can be handled by the TI on duty by going up to the dorm were there are plenty of people - if it's an emergency notification, you will have a commander and Chaplin with you anyways.
3) Trainees shouldn't be allowed to have cell phones so the offline communications cannot happen with the TI's; they should have to be stored with battery out in your personal bag with no access like they were 10 years ago.
4) TI's should have private facebook pages were trainees cannot find them - certainly shouldn't friend them on there. I don't think any supervisor should friend any subordinate on fb.And I agree with all these points. They all make sense and a command decision should be made to institute these points immediately. I hope someone does, but it is still ALWAYS wrong to have any kind of sexual, romantic, contact with trainees. Period. If you don't have the sack to act like a real man and exhibit some self-control and discipline, you have no business being in a position of power over someone who looks to you for guidance.

imported_AFKILO7
06-28-2012, 10:42 AM
I'm at Lackland and it is nuts here now. I don't deal with basic trainees, but my squadron is a tech school of sorts and the instructors are being drilled. Everyday it's a briefing on AFI 36-2909.

There is a TI attending NCOA with me now and he says the critique system in place is very one sided...all the power is with the trainees. I agree that unprofessional relationships are inappropriate and rape is deplorable. What about consensual sex between adults? The female trainees shoud be held accountable too.

efmbman
06-28-2012, 01:53 PM
Did they disobey orders and abuse position? Sure, but Bill Clinton set the standard on sexual relations. Our Congress is corrupt and inept, that is more appalling...sending our country down the tubes. We have elected leaders and senior military officials almost always in some "sexual scandal" or some other scandal and seemingly get away with it more times than not.

True... however, that arguement to justify behavior will not ever be acceptable. Elected officals are not held to the same standards of conduct servicemember are. We have the UCMJ and countless regulations to decribe acceptable standards of conduct. Congress and POTUS are accountable only to the electorate.


Simple stuff really. To this day, I won't go behind a closed door with a female at work without a third party present...it's all about protecting yourself.

I am the same way, absolutely. Avoid even the appearance of improper acts.


And I agree with all these points. They all make sense and a command decision should be made to institute these points immediately. I hope someone does, but it is still ALWAYS wrong to have any kind of sexual, romantic, contact with trainees. Period. If you don't have the sack to act like a real man and exhibit some self-control and discipline, you have no business being in a position of power over someone who looks to you for guidance.

Agreed, and I would like to add that the same can be said regarding any other military duties. When I see cases like the one discussed in this thread, my thoughts eventually go to the conclusion that if someone in a position of great responsibility can be swayed to abandon the core values of their service for something so trivial, what else have they done over their career that has not been discovered? What else might they have done had they not be caught in this act? Doing the right thing when no one is looking... that is what is at stake.


I agree that unprofessional relationships are inappropriate and rape is deplorable. What about consensual sex between adults? The female trainees shoud be held accountable too.

I completely agree, and I would bet that the trainees are briefed about improper relationships early on in the training. The onus is, and always will be, on the higher ranking servicemember. It could be argued that based on the trainee / TI relationship the trainee is never in a position to determine what actions are consensual versus what actions are follow orders (blatant or implied). The burden of responsibility is on the TI in this case. I do get very upset when I hear about women that suddenly cry assault when the "relationship" takes a bad turn. There is, unfortunately, very little a man can do to remove the stigma. I will say that in the case of TI's, DI's and recruiters, the best defense is to never allow yourself to be in a situation that someone can later ask: "I wonder what was going on in there..?"

I was a recruiter for 7 years (Army) and even though I was dealing with healthcare professionals I would never allow myself to be alone with someone of the opposite sex. If I was the only person on duty that day and a female was to be dealt with, I would set up a meeting at a Dunkin Donuts or some other public area.

Trainees have been getting trained at Lackland for years. I have no doubt there are established guidelines on how to interact with trainees. Failure to follow those guidelines is wrong. Those guidelines are there to protect the TI's, the trainees, the command, and the Air Force. Someone posted it earlier - this is not just about some jerk men taking advantage of young impressionable female trainees. This damages the public perception of the Air Force and the military. American families often reach a decision as a group if they are willing to send their sons and daughters to the military. Recruiters spend years (literally) establishing relationships with colleges and universities to gain access to the students. What if this incident closed a door to a prestigious university? Now those students, which are highly desired by the military services because of their educational creditials, are off-limits. This will damage that trust. Our enemies can use this as propaganda to show just how decadent our society has become, which will serve to further their recruiting efforts. When we go on humanitarian missions around the world, our credibility to do the right thing is now tarnished.

I may be really digging into the weeds to get the bad stuff, but if you think other countries and other societies do not dig into the weeds for dirt on us, you are living in a bubble.

/RANT

imported_Sgt HULK
06-28-2012, 02:08 PM
Setting up to teach in a squadron today I watched a female flight march by. Know what I saw? Kids. Little girls. There's never an excuse to cross that line. Regardless of how long we spend with them. How low a manned we are. Never. It's wrong on every level. I want to punch every one of those instructors for tarnishing the hat I worked so hard to earn.

GTFO with that noise, 18-25 yr old females are not kids or little girls,

you people crying out like these people are the next jerry sandusky need to have your heads examined, these are legal adults, not middle school girls

Airborne
06-28-2012, 03:02 PM
GTFO with that noise, 18-25 yr old females are not kids or little girls,

you people crying out like these people are the next jerry sandusky need to have your heads examined, these are legal adults, not middle school girls

Thank you!!!!! I understand this case has the "position of authority vs impressionable subordinates" thing going on, but lets not act like these dudes are having sex with 10 year olds.

efmbman
06-28-2012, 03:12 PM
Thank you!!!!! I understand this case has the "position of authority vs impressionable subordinates" thing going on, but lets not act like these dudes are having sex with 10 year olds.

It was not my intention to come across like that, apologies if I did. They are adults, I will agree with that.

To put it into a different context (not directed at Airborne or anyone else...):

A TI/DI that is willing to do what is alledged at Lackland... is that the NCO you want to:

Work on your personnel request?
File your finanical paperwork?
Conduct repairs on the plane you are about to get on?
Set up the radio you are to use to call for help in a combat environment?
Give you vaccinations or medical care?
Prepare your food at the dining facility?
And most importantly... would you want this NCO to lead your son or daughter?

*Bladeless
06-28-2012, 03:31 PM
GTFO with that noise, 18-25 yr old females are not kids or little girls,

you people crying out like these people are the next jerry sandusky need to have your heads examined, these are legal adults, not middle school girls


Thank you!!!!! I understand this case has the "position of authority vs impressionable subordinates" thing going on, but lets not act like these dudes are having sex with 10 year olds.

I gotta disagree here. While I am not making excuses for the girls, lets look at this for a moment. If they are still doing basic like they were when I joined, the whole point was to break you down to zero, and then build you up into an airmen. So its not that much of a stretch to see some TIs taking advantage of them at the completely broken down point. Even though they stink and look like ass, a hot girl is still hot. Anyone saying you dont get broken down is full of shit, because at some point, you either wept like a baby, threw up, or got scared shitless (or dropped a load in your pants) because of a TI.

If by some anamoly you slipped under the radar, you know of at least 20 instances where this happened to members of your flight. I mean they break you down to where you are scared to go get a slice of cake, and the thought of a "give me a 341" makes your blood run cold...By the times you graduate basic, you either think of your TI as God or a surrogate parent, or both...10 year old mentality....yep!

Add to that by week two, they are broken and striving for ways to curry favor. Then in general, women like to screw men in positions of power, perfect storm for an inscrutible TI to take advantage of. They are legal adults yes, but most of them are at the apex of mental weakness to be taken advantage of. The onus is on the TI to not embellish on it.

imported_CLSE
06-28-2012, 03:57 PM
Maybe the majority of these issue could be solved by doing BMT like the Marines do, segregated boot camp. There is no reason for males and females recruits to interact in basic training, or have instructors of the opposite sex.

I would like to see a study or statistics that show if the army or air force form of integrated basic is more likely to have sexual misconduct cases verses segregated basic training.

Just seems like this issue is happening far more than it should be, and that the best solution is revert to the way it used to be done.

That would require some common sense and an open admission that women and men are not the same and cannot be treated as if they are.

Oh, and of course, as soon as you mention the word "segregated", the "violation of civil rights" accusations will start flying.

As to the study that you suggest, it would never see the light of day because it wouldn't support the politically correct version of things.

You have to realize that in this day and age, the military is not an instrument of national policy and so the requirements for military service are not driven by military necessity.

The military is now a jobs program that should provide equal employment and promotion "opportunities".

If you listen to the discussion about opening up more AFSCs/MOSs to females, the primary reason given is to provide more advancement opportunties to them.

Personally, I think anybody who sees going into combat and risking injury, dismemberment and/or death as an nothing more than an career advancement opportunity and believes that the military only restricts females from direct combat in order to limit their career opportunities needs to have their head checked.

Capt Alfredo
06-28-2012, 04:26 PM
Completely beside the point, but if you got "broken down" by Air Force BMT (hello, Bob), you're mentally weak. Basic was a joke.

giggawatt
06-28-2012, 04:44 PM
Completely beside the point, but if you got "broken down" by Air Force BMT (hello, Bob), you're mentally weak. Basic was a joke.

You're right. I was never "broken" because I didn't need to be. I was an 18 year old impressionable teenager that didn't take a lot of breaking to "get it". I was shocked at first but I learned quick and stayed under the radar. My TI didn't even know my name until I saved his ass while on dorm guard. Earned a patio break for that! :)

Tak
06-28-2012, 04:47 PM
Is ordering someone to have sex a lawful order?

Tak
06-28-2012, 04:48 PM
I heard laundry detail for women in basic is disgusting.

raider8169
06-28-2012, 04:48 PM
If they just made sleeping with the trainees authorized there wouldnt be these issues. Maybe just restrict people within your own flights if you must.

Maybe the real fix is that once they graduate they are fair game. Its not like the girls are saying no.

raider8169
06-28-2012, 04:49 PM
Completely beside the point, but if you got "broken down" by Air Force BMT (hello, Bob), you're mentally weak. Basic was a joke.

I dont know anyone who was broken but everyone left there a different person then when they walked through the door. If you left the same person as when you entered you did it wrong.

F4CrewChick
06-28-2012, 04:50 PM
I enjoyed Basic. It did kinda break me down--in a way I needed to become an Airman. I was just 3 weeks past my 18th birthday, an only child and I really didn't understand that the AF didn't want an individual--they wanted me to become part of a larger unit. It took a while for that to sink in. I was made a squad leader twice and lost it twice. Eventually, I learned what it meant to lead by example without standing out. It has been a valuable lesson.

I agree with many of the posts on this topic and bottom line is a TI is supposed to instill trust in an individual as to further them in becoming a member of a team. The values which come with that process cannot be peppered with any manipulation that gives a trainee the idea that sexual shortcuts are a way to succeed in the AF.

I don't know how to strip that notion from the greater society-at-large because there are people of both sexes that use sex to get ahead, whether that be by offering it as a 'leg-up' or receiving it in kind-as-trade. Both sexes use it so please no BS about it's just women who 'sleep their way to the top' which is blatantly false. Please consider the men who make the offers, they too are part of the problem. In the military, this cannot be our way because we need people we can trust to do their jobs, effectively and professionally.

I hope they throw the book on these TIs and the bullet points made by VF earlier on the thread are instituted.

Tak
06-28-2012, 04:54 PM
Command climate is set by commanders.

*Bladeless
06-28-2012, 05:00 PM
Completely beside the point, but if you got "broken down" by Air Force BMT (hello, Bob), you're mentally weak. Basic was a joke.

Ahh the "basic was a joke" guy, so you were cool as a cucumber when those TI's stormed the bus at MPF and started yelling and tossing people's bags across the parking lot at 0300 then? When did you come in? NM, doesn't really matter because people have been saying that after the fact since the 50s probably. Usually the one or two people that were good at making hospital corners, and just unassuming enough to blend into the flight and never get singled out by the TI. If you were the epitome of core values sans haircut, and walked out of basic the same guy you went in as, then I salute you.

F4CrewChick
06-28-2012, 05:04 PM
You're right. I was never "broken" because I didn't need to be. I was an 18 year old impressionable teenager that didn't take a lot of breaking to "get it". I was shocked at first but I learned quick and stayed under the radar. My TI didn't even know my name until I saved his ass while on dorm guard. Earned a patio break for that! :)Hmmm...Dorm guard...I'll tell a secret here: I had sex in the bathroom while on dorm guard duty with a brand new trainee who was in our baby flight. It was another girl, of course. No one ever found out. I have no regrets.

VFFSSGT
06-28-2012, 05:07 PM
Hmmm...Dorm guard...I'll tell a secret here: I had sex in the bathroom while on dorm guard duty with a brand new trainee who was in our baby flight. It was another girl, of course. No one ever found out. I have no regrets.

You disgusting perverted sexual deviant! You should be hung for your sin!

*Bladeless
06-28-2012, 05:08 PM
I enjoyed Basic. It did kinda break me down--in a way I needed to become an Airman. I was just
I don't know how to strip that notion from the greater society-at-large because there are people of both sexes that use sex to get ahead, whether that be by offering it as a 'leg-up' or receiving it in kind-as-trade. Both sexes use it so please no BS about it's just women who 'sleep their way to the top' which is blatantly false. Please consider the men who make the offers, they too are part of the problem. In the military, this cannot be our way because we need people we can trust to do their jobs, effectively and professionally.



Not BS, I don't disagree with you. Women like screwing guys of power/influence and guys of power/influence use that screw women. It's a mutually corrosive relationship.

F4CrewChick
06-28-2012, 05:14 PM
You disgusting perverted sexual deviant! You should be hung for your sin!Did you call me a perv? I was a kid...I have to say it was the getting away with that was the best part...

F4CrewChick
06-28-2012, 05:16 PM
Not BS, I don't disagree with you. Women like screwing guys of power/influence and guys of power/influence use that screw women. It's a mutually corrosive relationship. I agree--mutually corrosive. The BS comment was simply to derail any talk of the nature of this practice as exclusively female.

VFFSSGT
06-28-2012, 05:19 PM
Did you call me a perv? I was a kid...I have to say it was the getting away with that was the best part...

You took advantage of a new trainee. Being that you were there longer...you were senior to the new trainee and knew the rules. The new trainee didn't know any better and looked up to you.

PS I am just throwing your outrage back at you...lol...that same thrill you got was the same thrill the TI's had...being a little devious and getting away with it...until they actually got caught.

Shrike
06-28-2012, 06:03 PM
Ahh the "basic was a joke" guy, so you were cool as a cucumber when those TI's stormed the bus at MPF and started yelling and tossing people's bags across the parking lot at 0300 then? When did you come in? NM, doesn't really matter because people have been saying that after the fact since the 50s probably. Usually the one or two people that were good at making hospital corners, and just unassuming enough to blend into the flight and never get singled out by the TI. If you were the epitome of core values sans haircut, and walked out of basic the same guy you went in as, then I salute you.

We didn't have the Core Values when I went to BMT in '88. And really, the yelling was not that big a deal. I had a mean, drunken, racist SOB of a stepfather at the time. Getting woken up at one in the morning by him yanking me out of bed and screaming at me because I didn't completely fill the ice trays kind of made me immune to having someone up in my face.

Shrike
06-28-2012, 06:04 PM
Hmmm...Dorm guard...I'll tell a secret here: I had sex in the bathroom while on dorm guard duty with a brand new trainee who was in our baby flight. It was another girl, of course. No one ever found out. I have no regrets.

E-mail me a digital copy of a 341.

giggawatt
06-28-2012, 06:12 PM
E-mail me a digital copy of a 341.

She got off easy! :D :D

Shrike
06-28-2012, 06:15 PM
She got off easy! :D :D

Pun definitely intended? :biggrin

giggawatt
06-28-2012, 06:26 PM
Pun definitely intended? :biggrin

Most definitely!

BRUWIN
06-28-2012, 07:05 PM
Hmmm...Dorm guard...I'll tell a secret here: I had sex in the bathroom while on dorm guard duty with a brand new trainee who was in our baby flight. It was another girl, of course. No one ever found out. I have no regrets.

I'll just be honest...I envisioned that scene and it appears I'll be able to skip my daily dose of Viagra today.

imported_biddy1030
06-28-2012, 07:36 PM
I'll just be honest...I envisioned that scene and it appears I'll be able to skip my daily dose of Viagra today.

ugh not me! i was under the impression the scene consisted of a mr.garrison looking chick in a scissoring fest

Airborne
06-28-2012, 07:41 PM
I think they will solve this by going to completely seperate basic for males and females, which means be prepared for some females to get non-vol'd.

Shrike
06-28-2012, 07:45 PM
ugh not me! i was under the impression the scene consisted of a mr.garrison looking chick in a scissoring fest

Many moons ago F4CrewChick posted a photo of herself from the neck down. Trust me...Mr. Garrison she most definitely ain't!!!

F4CrewChick
06-28-2012, 08:14 PM
She got off easy! :D :DYou are correct. She did get off easily...

F4CrewChick
06-28-2012, 08:25 PM
You took advantage of a new trainee. Being that you were there longer...you were senior to the new trainee and knew the rules. The new trainee didn't know any better and looked up to you.

PS I am just throwing your outrage back at you...lol...that same thrill you got was the same thrill the TI's had...being a little devious and getting away with it...until they actually got caught.Clearly, a TI and I were not of equal stature. I'm sure I wasn't the only one ever to get a little something illicitly during Basic, but really it's the Gay thing that was the biggest thrill. I would be pretty impossible for any straight people who have served to understand what it feels like to have to be undercover throughout a career in the service. Jus' saying...

I know you're just throwing me a little shade VFF...but big dif between the 2 week old pickle me and a MSgt TI.

F4CrewChick
06-28-2012, 08:27 PM
E-mail me a digital copy of a 341.I actually looked for an online version...just put it on my tab Sarge... (Actually don't know what rank you are Dear Shrike...)

Shrike
06-28-2012, 08:28 PM
Clearly, a TI and I were not of equal stature. I'm sure I wasn't the only one ever to get a little something illicitly during Basic, but really it's the Gay thing that was the biggest thrill. I would be pretty impossible for any straight people who have served to understand what it feels like to have to be undercover throughout a career in the service. Jus' saying...

I know you're just throwing me a little shade VFF...but big dif between the 2 week old pickle me and a MSgt TI.
You just broke my Irony-Meter3000.


:biggrin

F4CrewChick
06-28-2012, 08:31 PM
I'll just be honest...I envisioned that scene and it appears I'll be able to skip my daily dose of Viagra today.
It was 0300 HRS, the florescent light of the '03rd bathroom reflected less harshly off her nubile, young flesh than might be expected...

F4CrewChick
06-28-2012, 08:37 PM
Many moons ago F4CrewChick posted a photo of herself from the neck down. Trust me...Mr. Garrison she most definitely ain't!!!
Thank you Sir... I am admittedly no slouch. I'm still in quite good shape and NO ONE thinks I look my age. Only a few years ago in fact, I won $300. and a beer sign at The Afterburner baby oil wrestling with girls half my age. I defeated 3 worthy opponents. (I still have the beer sign).

F4CrewChick
06-28-2012, 08:38 PM
You just broke my Irony-Meter3000.


:biggrinI never have really understood that cucumber joke...

BRUWIN
06-28-2012, 08:42 PM
It was 0300 HRS, the florescent light of the '03rd bathroom reflected less harshly off her nubile, young flesh than might be expected...

Just tell me she was wearing her pickle hat...the gals were so sexy in their their pickle hats.

I gotta say F-4, that was pretty risky back then. Those were the days of the old fashioned witch hunts OSI used to have. I had an old SSgt supervisor who fell victim to one of those investigations. Her and almost the entire Lakenheath softball team were reigned in. She was eventually left alone but it went on for quite a few months. I was rooting for her too. She was an old school SSgt, not much to look at, but I was a big fuck up A1C/SrA back then and she ALWAYS had my back.

VFFSSGT
06-28-2012, 09:08 PM
Clearly, a TI and I were not of equal stature. I'm sure I wasn't the only one ever to get a little something illicitly during Basic, but really it's the Gay thing that was the biggest thrill. I would be pretty impossible for any straight people who have served to understand what it feels like to have to be undercover throughout a career in the service. Jus' saying...

I know you're just throwing me a little shade VFF...but big dif between the 2 week old pickle me and a MSgt TI.

Not completely sure about that...I remember the first night of basic and I didn't know the hell was yelling at me. Turns out it was just trainees that had been there a few weeks longer, but it was a couple days before anyone really realized that and wasn't afraid of those dorm guard knuckleheads on a power trip.

js7799
06-28-2012, 09:09 PM
Hmmm...Dorm guard...I'll tell a secret here: I had sex in the bathroom while on dorm guard duty with a brand new trainee who was in our baby flight. It was another girl, of course. No one ever found out. I have no regrets.

Best thread derailment still related to the OP ever.

Shrike
06-28-2012, 09:11 PM
I actually looked for an online version...just put it on my tab Sarge... (Actually don't know what rank you are Dear Shrike...)

I'm a soon-to-be Mister.

F4CrewChick
06-28-2012, 09:15 PM
Just tell me she was wearing her pickle hat...the gals were so sexy in their their pickle hats.

I gotta say F-4, that was pretty risky back then. Those were the days of the old fashioned witch hunts OSI used to have. I had an old SSgt supervisor who fell victim to one of those investigations. Her and almost the entire Lakenheath softball team were reigned in. She was eventually left alone but it went on for quite a few months. I was rooting for her too. She was an old school SSgt, not much to look at, but I was a big fuck up A1C/SrA back then and she ALWAYS had my back.Truth B...I witnessed the witch hunts but was never on anyone's radar (that I knew of). I have the distinct advantage of being 'easy on the eyes' and have always been a hard-worker; the 'targets' of the hunts seemed always to be 'stereotypical' lesbians and gay men. Really butch gals or really femmy guys or the people who were plain, old F-ups. Of course there are exceptions--I have a doctor friend who is still AD and he is a FLAMER even at work, and he has never had the slightest problem, though I think his time as a flight surgeon was a less than stellar leg of his career.

I guess I kinda got off in some way 'putting one past' the AF because I never thought the no homos rule was fair, equitable, just or anything other than bullshit homophobia. I was raised well and in an a very tolerant atmosphere where intolerance wasn't tolerated. I can't remember if I've shared this here before but when I went to the recruiter for the very first time, it was with a friend and we were going to join on the 'buddy' program. She was not a love interest of mine but I did have a little crush on her and the recruiter picked up on it and said very casually, "No one cares if you're gay, just do your job well and no one will care." My pal ended up not going in but that recruiter's words stayed with me over my career.

BRUWIN
06-28-2012, 10:43 PM
Truth B...I witnessed the witch hunts but was never on anyone's radar (that I knew of). I have the distinct advantage of being 'easy on the eyes' and have always been a hard-worker; the 'targets' of the hunts seemed always to be 'stereotypical' lesbians and gay men.

True...this girl was not full butch...kinda in between. If somebody had a problem with me they made sure they would always go through her first. She'd light them up otherwise. Me and her were cool and she was pretty upfront about things with me. I once jokingly mentioned that 5 minutes with me would convert her....I never made that comment again. She had me doing all the shit details for a week.

F4CrewChick
06-28-2012, 10:56 PM
Not completely sure about that...I remember the first night of basic and I didn't know the hell was yelling at me. Turns out it was just trainees that had been there a few weeks longer, but it was a couple days before anyone really realized that and wasn't afraid of those dorm guard knuckleheads on a power trip.It is different for girls...that aside, her flight had just come in earlier that day. She was so impressed by my ugly-ass fatigues (they were the poly-blend, tucked or untucked OD green ones), she just kept asking questions about how Basic was, what I thought about my first two weeks, how I liked being at Lackland, etc. I had some questions of my own: Do you have a boyfriend? Do you like softball? There is a special little code song n dance you must play under the old rules. I promise you she was never intimidated by an eighteen year old, matter of fact, she was nineteen and had MORE experience than I did--just not in dorm bathrooms.

F4CrewChick
06-28-2012, 11:00 PM
True...this girl was not full butch...kinda in between. If somebody had a problem with me they made sure they would always go through her first. She'd light them up otherwise. Me and her were cool and she was pretty upfront about things with me. I once jokingly mentioned that 5 minutes with me would convert her....I never made that comment again. She had me doing all the shit details for a week.Bahahahahahaha. Do straight men not know that, I swear, virtually EVERY man says that at some point? If I had a nickel...

Also, FIVE MINUTES is the main problem with sex with men...

Tak
06-28-2012, 11:14 PM
It is different for girls...that aside, her flight had just come in earlier that day. She was so impressed by my ugly-ass fatigues (they were the poly-blend, tucked or untucked OD green ones), she just kept asking questions about how Basic was, what I thought about my first two weeks, how I liked being at Lackland, etc. I had some questions of my own: Do you have a boyfriend? Do you like softball? There is a special little code song n dance you must play under the old rules. I promise you she was never intimidated by an eighteen year old, matter of fact, she was nineteen and had MORE experience than I did--just not in dorm bathrooms.

I love the new do ask do tell policy.

Smeghead
06-28-2012, 11:37 PM
GTFO with that noise, 18-25 yr old females are not kids or little girls,

you people crying out like these people are the next jerry sandusky need to have your heads examined, these are legal adults, not middle school girls

GTFO? Are you an MTI? Do you have even the slightest idea what it is to wield this much power over a bunch of impressionable kids? They are kids. Most just graduated high school. I'm old enough the be the majority's fathers, so yes I see kids. Not some hot babe waiting to be smashed. If you look at a trainee and that's what you see, well please don't put an application in.

You have no idea what you're talking about. You've no idea how easy it is to get carried away with the power we have and to start to believe you're own hype. It's addictive. It's humbling. We are one of the most influential people who'll ever enter their lives. It's a drug. I love having that much influence on someone, but I also know when it's time to look in the mirror and reign my ego in.

It's irrelevant if the trainee is 18,25, or a 40 yr old ANG recruit. YOU DON'T MESS WITH THEM. By your logic there's no problem with all these 30 something female teachers banging high schoolers. Because if they want to, it's all cool right? Probably time for you to STFU until you have an inkling of what the issue is here.

tiredretiredE7
06-28-2012, 11:50 PM
GTFO? Are you an MTI? Do you have even the slightest idea what it is to wield this much power over a bunch of impressionable kids? They are kids. Most just graduated high school. I'm old enough the be the majority's fathers, so yes I see kids. Not some hot babe waiting to be smashed. If you look at a trainee and that's what you see, well please don't put an application in.

You have no idea what you're talking about. You've no idea how easy it is to get carried away with the power we have and to start to believe you're own hype. It's addictive. It's humbling. We are one of the most influential people who'll ever enter their lives. It's a drug. I love having that much influence on someone, but I also know when it's time to look in the mirror and reign my ego in.

It's irrelevant if the trainee is 18,25, or a 40 yr old ANG recruit. YOU DON'T MESS WITH THEM. By your logic there's no problem with all these 30 something female teachers banging high schoolers. Because if they want to, it's all cool right? Probably time for you to STFU until you have an inkling of what the issue is here.

+1, most of the people in these forums will not experience the same feelings you have (I agree with you 100%) so they will respond with less than professional comments. I believe all of the TIs should be TSgts with 14 TIS, minimum. I was an instructor (not TI) for 3 years and students were off-limits way back then.

F4CrewChick
06-28-2012, 11:57 PM
+1, most of the people in these forums will not experience the same feelings you have (I agree with you 100%) so they will respond with less than professional comments. I believe all of the TIs should be TSgts with 14 TIS, minimum. I was an instructor (not TI) for 3 years and students were off-limits way back then.I just like you more and more despite our differences of opinion. You display on this forum the experience and professionalism of the type of Airmen I have always enjoyed working with; thank you.

BRUWIN
06-29-2012, 12:00 AM
Bahahahahahaha. Do straight men not know that, I swear, virtually EVERY man says that at some point? If I had a nickel...



I picked a bad day. At times she had little patience for smart assed Airmen. Other times she seemed to appreciate my candor...it just depended on the day. She was definately someone I enjoyed working for though and she still sticks out in my mind to this day. In a flightline environment it was hard to find people that actually looked out for you...but she was one.

OtisRNeedleman
06-29-2012, 12:09 AM
I, too, was an instructor for several years, then became chief of operations and training for the group, back in the 80's. Trained both men and women. Never even thought about putting the moves on one of the female students. Far as I know none of my fellow instructors, male or female, ever made a move on a student of the opposite sex. We just didn't do that stuff. Most of us were married, and for the single people, there was good hunting downtown. As ops chief wasn't aware of any fraternization issues, but they may have been handled in a very compartmented manner.

F4CrewChick
06-29-2012, 12:43 AM
I picked a bad day. At times she had little patience for smart assed Airmen. Other times she seemed to appreciate my candor...it just depended on the day. She was definately someone I enjoyed working for though and she still sticks out in my mind to this day. In a flightline environment it was hard to find people that actually looked out for you...but she was one.I am glad you had someone you could rely on and I'm sure she felt the same about you. A concept that seems to elude guys is that lesbians don't dislike men; we are attracted to women. The whole mystery of sexual and romantic attraction will probably always elude us all. I really adore men (for the most part), but women "do it for me," which is not to say all women. I have a penchant for tall, busty blondes with the caveat that brains turn me on the most.

I love Women with large... vocabularies. :cheer2

PT GOD
06-29-2012, 01:19 AM
thanks F4Crewchick..now I can skip my daily wrist exercises at the gym

F4CrewChick
06-29-2012, 01:56 AM
thanks F4Crewchick..now I can skip my daily wrist exercises at the gymMy pleasure PT GOD, any little thing I can do to further your fitness goals...

Capt Alfredo
06-29-2012, 03:16 AM
I dont know anyone who was broken but everyone left there a different person then when they walked through the door. If you left the same person as when you entered you did it wrong.

Sure. I just think the Air Force (circa 1990) did a lot less changing of a person than the other services. I'm not saying I didn't learn anything, or that I wasn't wary of the TIs; I'm saying they never "broke" me down and changed my overall mindset. It just wasn't/isn't necessary.

I natively understood it was a game and just played along. Magically at my first base, no one was yelling at me and I wasn't expected to shave my head. Imagine that.

MaintChief
06-29-2012, 04:07 AM
I went through basic training in 1981. We did not have mixed male/female flights. Every flight had 2 TI's assigned, a primary and an assistant. From what I read here that is no longer the case?

The problem in my opinion is that we are entrusting trainee's to "people" who are unsuited to the job. Many of you, and myself, have bitched, pissed, and moaned about how fast promotions are now to SSgt and TSgt. We are putting people in positions of responsibility/authority who barely know how to wipe their own butts, and then are surprised when things like this happen?

I would also like to propose that the "command climate" of the post Gulf War I USAF also has something to do with this. We used to have leadership and clear expectations. Now we have mismanagement and crisis response as the norm. Look at the numerous fuck-ups in regards to acquisitions and the nuclear enterprise. Look at the failure to treat our people as adults and to hold individuals accountable for their behavior. Instead we get GO #1 and stupidity such as SARC.

Comments?

Uncle-Sugar
06-29-2012, 04:34 AM
I went through basic training in 1981. We did not have mixed male/female flights. Every flight had 2 TI's assigned, a primary and an assistant. From what I read here that is no longer the case?

The problem in my opinion is that we are entrusting trainee's to "people" who are unsuited to the job. Many of you, and myself, have bitched, pissed, and moaned about how fast promotions are now to SSgt and TSgt. We are putting people in positions of responsibility/authority who barely know how to wipe their own butts, and then are surprised when things like this happen?

I would also like to propose that the "command climate" of the post Gulf War I USAF also has something to do with this. We used to have leadership and clear expectations. Now we have mismanagement and crisis response as the norm. Look at the numerous fuck-ups in regards to acquisitions and the nuclear enterprise. Look at the failure to treat our people as adults and to hold individuals accountable for their behavior. Instead we get GO #1 and stupidity such as SARC.

Comments?

Agreed, reason #707 why I pulled out at 20. Tired of holding hands, wiping asses, and getting chewed out for for circumstances that were beyond my control. This is only the beginning for the "New A/F." Big Blue is getting exactly what they deserve...

GoatDriver57
06-29-2012, 05:12 AM
Sure. ------------- did a lot less changing of a person-------------- I'm not saying I didn't learn anything, ------------------- they never "broke" me down and changed my overall mindset. It just wasn't/isn't necessary. --------snip-----------.

This is what I noticed ones with prior OTS training out of HS/college. That was long before '80s, '90s.

F4CrewChick
06-29-2012, 05:16 AM
I went through basic training in 1981. We did not have mixed male/female flights. Every flight had 2 TI's assigned, a primary and an assistant. From what I read here that is no longer the case?

The problem in my opinion is that we are entrusting trainee's to "people" who are unsuited to the job. Many of you, and myself, have bitched, pissed, and moaned about how fast promotions are now to SSgt and TSgt. We are putting people in positions of responsibility/authority who barely know how to wipe their own butts, and then are surprised when things like this happen?

I would also like to propose that the "command climate" of the post Gulf War I USAF also has something to do with this. We used to have leadership and clear expectations. Now we have mismanagement and crisis response as the norm. Look at the numerous fuck-ups in regards to acquisitions and the nuclear enterprise. Look at the failure to treat our people as adults and to hold individuals accountable for their behavior. Instead we get GO #1 and stupidity such as SARC.

Comments?
I went in the year before you Chief and I agree. One element of rapid promotion over the last decade has been war. We went in during peacetime and promotions were harder to come by. I remember trying to get SrA BTZ had a pass rate of something like 3% and you really had to earn it. I do hope we will see a turning point once the we withdraw from Afghanistan. I am of course aware of the relatively large number of troops that will continue to be maintained in OIF/OEF, but hopefully once the fever pitch has dropped after 'combat troops' leave, we will experience a respite and cooler heads with better leadership skills will come to the fore. Thanks for your comment.

Shrike
06-29-2012, 11:37 AM
I went through basic training in 1981. We did not have mixed male/female flights. Every flight had 2 TI's assigned, a primary and an assistant. From what I read here that is no longer the case?

The problem in my opinion is that we are entrusting trainee's to "people" who are unsuited to the job. Many of you, and myself, have bitched, pissed, and moaned about how fast promotions are now to SSgt and TSgt. We are putting people in positions of responsibility/authority who barely know how to wipe their own butts, and then are surprised when things like this happen?

I would also like to propose that the "command climate" of the post Gulf War I USAF also has something to do with this. We used to have leadership and clear expectations. Now we have mismanagement and crisis response as the norm. Look at the numerous fuck-ups in regards to acquisitions and the nuclear enterprise. Look at the failure to treat our people as adults and to hold individuals accountable for their behavior. Instead we get GO #1 and stupidity such as SARC.

Comments?

Agreed. It's one of the many reasons I'm punching.

Capt Alfredo
06-29-2012, 01:43 PM
This is what I noticed ones with prior OTS training out of HS/college. That was long before '80s, '90s.

I'm not clear on what you're saying here. I went through regular basic training in 1990 and OTS in 2002. Neither were particularly grueling, but the enlisted training was far more "stressful" if that's even the right word.

Pullinteeth
06-29-2012, 01:55 PM
Maybe the real fix is that once they graduate they are fair game. Its not like the girls are saying no.

ummmmmmmmmmmno. You do realize that for Recruiters, the rule is you can't bang 'em while they are an applicant, you can't bang 'em in basic, ya can't bang 'em in tech school, ya can't bang 'em after tech school....THAT is how seriously the AF takes the issue of those in authority during the transition from civilian to Airman.... Not sure what the exact rules are for TIs but can't imagine it would be any more lax.

Uncle-Sugar
06-29-2012, 07:05 PM
I have the misfortune of having to be a recruiter. A guy in my sq was prosecuted and sent to prison for having relations with his applicants. I believe he received 8 years in prison for his offenses. If these people are guilty they should receive nothing less than what my former sq member did...

MaintChief
06-29-2012, 07:14 PM
I'm not clear on what you're saying here. I went through regular basic training in 1990 and OTS in 2002. Neither were particularly grueling, but the enlisted training was far more "stressful" if that's even the right word.

Basic training is stressful if you are a coddled 18-23 y/o know-it-all who has lived with and been supported by Mommy and Daddy your entire life up until that point. My Dad was retired Army, 18 years as an MP or MP instructor. I started working at 16. I was fully aware of what real stress was...Basic didn't even register.

And they allow cell phones at Basic now? YHGTBFSM!

F4CrewChick
06-29-2012, 10:07 PM
[ ]And they allow cell phones at Basic now? YHGTBFSM!I know, right? That is a total mistake which should be changed immediately.

imported_LOAL-D
06-29-2012, 10:49 PM
We didn't have the Core Values when I went to BMT in '88. And really, the yelling was not that big a deal. I had a mean, drunken, racist SOB of a stepfather at the time. Getting woken up at one in the morning by him yanking me out of bed and screaming at me because I didn't completely fill the ice trays kind of made me immune to having someone up in my face.

My prep for BMT in 1986? 12 years of Catholic school with German Nazi Kung-Fu nuns!

cloudFFVII
06-29-2012, 11:25 PM
As long as "free will" exists, actions like this are going to happen.

We "laugh" at things like our Core Values and the Airman's Creed...but let's be perfectly frank for a second:

- If you live by "Integrity First", you know being a TI and having sex (consensual OR NOT) is completely against what Integrity would demand
- If you live by "Service Before Self", you realize you are shaping the future of these individuals. By entering into a physical (or even implied one, since I noticed one of the charged was using social media to interact) relationship, you blow this one up too.
- And of course "Excellence in All We Do". I would say befriending and preying on innocent basic trainees would pretty much mean you're as far from Excellent as you can get.
- The Airman Creed talks about:
*Faithful to a proud heritage, a tradition of honor and a legacy of valor". Yeah, I'm betting that Billy Mitchell wasn't seeking out 18 year old girls to frolic with...
*Wingman, Leader, Warrior. And we wonder why we have so many developing social issues in our military today. TI's are the frontlines for senior leadership, like it or not. And while yes, the actions of a few knuckleheads shouldn't put a black eye to the majority, you better believe that this is doing every bit as much damage to the AF image as Tailhook did over 20 decades ago for the Navy.
*I will not fail. Need I say more?

Look...I saw TI's are 85% manned right now. That's causing a huge amount of stress to enter in. Testosterone, stress, vulnerable girls, knowing (thinking?) you can get away with it, no one will know, no one will tell (hence all the obstruction of justice charges in this case too). So, in a very small way, the AF is to blame for allowing manning to hit this point, and put that stress onto all TI's.

But all this being said: It's wrong, it's against the law, and you can argue the merits of whether a girl should share responsibility as the TI...but the girl is going to be scarred for life anyway. And that damage will last long after that TI gets out of jail.

I would say, both sides lose equally, but the TI is the one who ultimately has responsibility for their actions as the leader, mentor and the one Gen Rice and senior AF leadership entrusts to mold the leaders of the AF tomorrow.

At the end of the day, it's just sad.

BRUWIN
06-29-2012, 11:33 PM
As long as "free will" exists, actions like this are going to happen.

We "laugh" at things like our Core Values and the Airman's Creed...but let's be perfectly frank for a second:

- If you live by "Integrity First", you know being a TI and having sex (consensual OR NOT) is completely against what Integrity would demand
- If you live by "Service Before Self", you realize you are shaping the future of these individuals. By entering into a physical (or even implied one, since I noticed one of the charged was using social media to interact) relationship, you blow this one up too.
- And of course "Excellence in All We Do". I would say befriending and preying on innocent basic trainees would pretty much mean you're as far from Excellent as you can get.
- The Airman Creed talks about:
*Faithful to a proud heritage, a tradition of honor and a legacy of valor". Yeah, I'm betting that Billy Mitchell wasn't seeking out 18 year old girls to frolic with...
*Wingman, Leader, Warrior. And we wonder why we have so many developing social issues in our military today. TI's are the frontlines for senior leadership, like it or not. And while yes, the actions of a few knuckleheads shouldn't put a black eye to the majority, you better believe that this is doing every bit as much damage to the AF image as Tailhook did over 20 decades ago for the Navy.
*I will not fail. Need I say more?

Look...I saw TI's are 85% manned right now. That's causing a huge amount of stress to enter in. Testosterone, stress, vulnerable girls, knowing (thinking?) you can get away with it, no one will know, no one will tell (hence all the obstruction of justice charges in this case too). So, in a very small way, the AF is to blame for allowing manning to hit this point, and put that stress onto all TI's.

But all this being said: It's wrong, it's against the law, and you can argue the merits of whether a girl should share responsibility as the TI...but the girl is going to be scarred for life anyway. And that damage will last long after that TI gets out of jail.

I would say, both sides lose equally, but the TI is the one who ultimately has responsibility for their actions as the leader, mentor and the one Gen Rice and senior AF leadership entrusts to mold the leaders of the AF tomorrow.

At the end of the day, it's just sad.

I don't recall anybody laughing at our core values in this forum. In fact...if past leaders had led by our core values we never would have had a supposed need for an Airmen's creed.

Smeghead
06-30-2012, 12:27 AM
Basic training is stressful if you are a coddled 18-23 y/o know-it-all who has lived with and been supported by Mommy and Daddy your entire life up until that point. My Dad was retired Army, 18 years as an MP or MP instructor. I started working at 16. I was fully aware of what real stress was...Basic didn't even register.

And they allow cell phones at Basic now? YHGTBFSM!

We don't "ALLOW" cell phones. Do some research. On arrival their cellphones are locked up. Just as any electronic devices have been for years. Except, instead of the phones going into civilian luggage they're locked up in the flight office. Trainees only get their phones when we unlock and pass them out. Then they make their calls home under our supervision. No texting, no updating Facebook. Voice only. Trainees are not running around the squadrons with the phones in their pocket.

F4CrewChick
06-30-2012, 02:10 AM
We don't "ALLOW" cell phones. Do some research. On arrival their cellphones are locked up. Just as any electronic devices have been for years. Except, instead of the phones going into civilian luggage they're locked up in the flight office. Trainees only get their phones when we unlock and pass them out. Then they make their calls home under our supervision. No texting, no updating Facebook. Voice only. Trainees are not running around the squadrons with the phones in their pocket.
Thanks for the update Smeg. I guess that sounds ok but there is something charming and old school about waiting in line to make that first call home. Sigh.

Tak
06-30-2012, 02:15 AM
It's evolution...titties and butts are getting bigger with each generation.

KellyinAvon
06-30-2012, 02:18 AM
We don't "ALLOW" cell phones. Do some research. On arrival their cellphones are locked up. Just as any electronic devices have been for years. Except, instead of the phones going into civilian luggage they're locked up in the flight office. Trainees only get their phones when we unlock and pass them out. Then they make their calls home under our supervision. No texting, no updating Facebook. Voice only. Trainees are not running around the squadrons with the phones in their pocket.

When I went to Basic it wasn't a matter of "allow", it was a matter of "invent".

Tak
06-30-2012, 02:21 AM
Cell phones...pay phones...Who gives a f@#king sh@t (WGAFS)

KellyinAvon
06-30-2012, 02:26 AM
Cell phones...pay phones...Who gives a f@#king sh@t (WGAFS)

I do. I also care about push-button or rotary dial, DSN or commercial, copper or fiber optic, and a few other things.

Tak
06-30-2012, 02:33 AM
I do. I also care about push-button or rotary dial, DSN or commercial, copper or fiber optic, and a few other things.

Remember being on phone stretching the big cord out...and when call waiting came out.
Hell, I used to use a 1200 baud modem with a tandy 1000 from radio shack.

BRUWIN
06-30-2012, 02:39 AM
We don't "ALLOW" cell phones. Do some research.

Hey, nobody from Lackland should be getting uppity with anybody right now. And according to mainstream media sources today (Fox, CNN, ect) some TI's do allow cell phones...for certain favors returned. It's a total freakin embarrassment to anybody even remotely associated to the AF.

When I went through basic 30 years ago they had plenty of female TIs but joining them downstairs for a beer and some rough sex in the supply closet was not part of the equation.

WTF is going on over there? It's supposed to be basic military training...some of your co-horts are acting like it's some kind of "Girls Gone Wild" vacation hotspot.

F4CrewChick
06-30-2012, 03:41 AM
It's evolution...titties and butts are getting bigger with each generation.I don't know about that...I remember a girl in my flight, Betty from Arkansas. During weapons training, the crawl-under-the-barbed-wire-on-your-belly-with-your-M16 thing, she was in the lane right next to me, and she being a girl with an ample be-hind, every move forward, she would get her ass hung up on the wire and then grunt, "Ahh!" She made me laugh so hard I almost peed my pants.

I really did enjoy Basic.

F4CrewChick
06-30-2012, 03:43 AM
Hey, nobody from Lackland should be getting uppity with anybody right now. And according to mainstream media sources today (Fox, CNN, ect) some TI's do allow cell phones...for certain favors returned. It's a total freakin embarrassment to anybody even remotely associated to the AF.

When I went through basic 30 years ago they had plenty of female TIs but joining them downstairs for a beer and some rough sex in the supply closet was not part of the equation.

WTF is going on over there? It's supposed to be basic military training...some of your co-horts are acting like it's some kind of "Girls Gone Wild" vacation hotspot.B- I love it when you get all excited...

Tak
06-30-2012, 03:45 AM
I don't know about that...I remember a girl in my flight, Betty from Arkansas. During weapons training, the crawl-under-the-barbed-wire-on-your-belly-with-your-M16 thing, she was in the lane right next to me, and she being a girl with an ample be-hind, every move forward, she would get her ass hung up on the wire and then grunt, "Ahh!" She made me laugh so hard I almost peed my pants.

I really did enjoy Basic.

Sweet visual...crawling in mudd, big ole booty in air...Hell yeah...

Tak
06-30-2012, 03:45 AM
B- I love it when you get all excited...

It's getting hot in here...

BRUWIN
06-30-2012, 04:23 AM
B- I love it when you get all excited...

It just really pisses me off when MTIs come on here all smug and start telling us how it is. I know how it is, I got CNN and Fox news telling me how it is. I accidently fell asleep with the television on last night and when I finally woke up early this morning CNN was in the middle of telling me exactly how AF basic training is. It's like goddamned spring break over there that's how it is. How many TIs have been rolled into this now? These are young ladies that I believe could do little but cave to these guys. I don't care what anybody says about the whole "consenting adult" thing. These ladies had little choice because of the position of power these guys had over them. And while we are at it...they've probably set the stage for many false accusations to come because we all know today's AF, they'll start banging nails into the wall with a sledgehammer as a result.

Smeghead is obviously in innocent in this but he needs to be policing his own over there rather than calling out a maintenance chief that asked an innocent question.

F4CrewChick
06-30-2012, 04:25 AM
Honestly though, Michelle Manheart was a TI, right? WTF? The command atmosphere has changed sooo much. I had lunch (we're both vegetarians) and a chat with then BG Darrell Jones, 37th Training Wing Commander at the time, and he spoke about trying to balance "superb training with a sense of the changing times." I haven't any idea what the hell that means given the climate at Lackland--umm JBSA, but something has got to give. What happened to discipline and professionalism?

Tak
06-30-2012, 04:31 AM
I went to retrain last year, stayed in lodging right by training pad. I was impressed
And somedays spent time watching extreme Professonalism with ti's and troops.
Dont let a few bad criminals ruin the whole lot.
99.9% of ti's are amazing and have my utmost respect.

BRUWIN
06-30-2012, 04:37 AM
Honestly though, Michelle Manheart was a TI, right? WTF?

I had a letter printed in the AF Times about her. It still amazes me she expected no repurcussions from those pictures. She lost all credibility as a TI when she posed for them. The AF was right in getting rid of her since she decided to use her service and position for personal gain. The pictures of her outside of the uniform were good. We just didn't need to let that slide in the AF.

F4CrewChick
06-30-2012, 04:47 AM
I had a letter printed in the AF Times about her. It still amazes me she expected no repurcussions from those pictures. She lost all credibility as a TI when she posed for them. The AF was right in getting rid of her since she decided to use her service and position for personal gain. The pictures of her outside of the uniform were good. We just didn't need to let that slide in the AF.
Agree. She has a great rack but that was really out of line while she was AD and especially a TI.

OtisRNeedleman
06-30-2012, 05:09 AM
This is so far from my basic training experience it's hard to understand. We had two TIs per flight. Males and females were in separate squadrons. The females had female TIs. Heck, the only time we basic trainees even got to talk to females was at chapel and during liberties. Entirely different worlds. In view of what has happened, it's time to go back to sex-segregated basic training, with male TIs for the males, female TIs for the females.

BRUWIN
06-30-2012, 05:38 AM
This is so far from my basic training experience it's hard to understand. We had two TIs per flight. Males and females were in separate squadrons. The females had female TIs. Heck, the only time we basic trainees even got to talk to females was at chapel and during liberties. Entirely different worlds. In view of what has happened, it's time to go back to sex-segregated basic training, with male TIs for the males, female TIs for the females.

It will never happen. Hell...basic training with women present is similar to deploying with them. Men need to get used to it early. I don't think the issue is really about what goes on between the trainees. Things going on between trainees have been a part of Lackland since well before I came in and some stories are a part of folklore that have been passed on for years. The big issue I see is really about the abuse of power/position by TIs. It's almost rape by my standard.

OtisRNeedleman
06-30-2012, 06:14 AM
It will never happen. Hell...basic training with women present is similar to deploying with them. Men need to get used to it early. I don't think the issue is really about what goes on between the trainees. Things going on between trainees have been a part of Lackland since well before I came in and some stories are a part of folklore that have been passed on for years. The big issue I see is really about the abuse of power/position by TIs. It's almost rape by my standard. Dunno. Basic training isn't the same as a deployment or the "regular Air Force", if such a thing ever existed. It's a very special training environment. Get the male TIs away from female trainees and a major source of temptation has been removed. Believe the Marines still have sex-segregated basic training. All it takes is a display of backbone from General Rice.

BRUWIN
06-30-2012, 08:08 AM
Dunno. Basic training isn't the same as a deployment or the "regular Air Force", if such a thing ever existed. It's a very special training environment. Get the male TIs away from female trainees and a major source of temptation has been removed. Believe the Marines still have sex-segregated basic training. All it takes is a display of backbone from General Rice.

I don't disagree. I just don't see it happening in the AF. Feminists will claim it's a plot to relegate them back to the kitchen because we can't seem to control our urges.

jarhead dad
06-30-2012, 10:19 AM
Dunno. Basic training isn't the same as a deployment or the "regular Air Force", if such a thing ever existed. It's a very special training environment. Get the male TIs away from female trainees and a major source of temptation has been removed. Believe the Marines still have sex-segregated basic training. All it takes is a display of backbone from General Rice.

Reference page one of this post. I said exactly the same thing. There are no issues with integration after boot camp. But basic should be separated and TI's should not be allowed to interface with recruits of the opposite sex. Easy and best fix for those with common sense. For those who live in the US of PC A it won't happen. But this argument fails as it does happen still in the Marine Corps, and it works just fine. Just need someone with enough balls in the air force or government to demand the change, and follow through with it. Not a hard fix, orders stating male TIs for male recruits, female TIs for female recruits, no interactions period!

imported_AFKILO7
06-30-2012, 11:02 AM
I'm not a MTI, but I am stationed at Lackland, and I do have a close friend who is a TI and has only been here over a year. With that being said from what I gather there are not enough female MTI's here to separate male instructors/female trainees. I think the idea has merit too. The fact that this scandal has headlined across the US really aggravates me. I hope that this entire situation is unf@&ked soonest.

Tak
06-30-2012, 04:25 PM
Why does the AF only address sexual assault being against women.
Maybe something happened to me 'I wish'

Tak
06-30-2012, 04:26 PM
I'm not a MTI, but I am stationed at Lackland, and I do have a close friend who is a TI and has only been here over a year. With that being said from what I gather there are not enough female MTI's here to separate male instructors/female trainees. I think the idea has merit too. The fact that this scandal has headlined across the US really aggravates me. I hope that this entire situation is unf@&ked soonest.

There's always a new scandal to replace last.

MaintChief
06-30-2012, 08:43 PM
We don't "ALLOW" cell phones. Do some research. On arrival their cellphones are locked up. Just as any electronic devices have been for years. Except, instead of the phones going into civilian luggage they're locked up in the flight office. Trainees only get their phones when we unlock and pass them out. Then they make their calls home under our supervision. No texting, no updating Facebook. Voice only. Trainees are not running around the squadrons with the phones in their pocket.

By all press accounts you are wrong. And yes, I understand the press isn't always right. Maybe this is the perfect opportunity to start indoctrinating our younger Airmen on the cold realities of life? You don't always get what you want, and you can't stay connected 24/7.

MaintChief
06-30-2012, 08:48 PM
As long as "free will" exists, actions like this are going to happen.

We "laugh" at things like our Core Values and the Airman's Creed...but let's be perfectly frank for a second:

- If you live by "Integrity First", you know being a TI and having sex (consensual OR NOT) is completely against what Integrity would demand
- If you live by "Service Before Self", you realize you are shaping the future of these individuals. By entering into a physical (or even implied one, since I noticed one of the charged was using social media to interact) relationship, you blow this one up too.
- And of course "Excellence in All We Do". I would say befriending and preying on innocent basic trainees would pretty much mean you're as far from Excellent as you can get.
- The Airman Creed talks about:
*Faithful to a proud heritage, a tradition of honor and a legacy of valor". Yeah, I'm betting that Billy Mitchell wasn't seeking out 18 year old girls to frolic with...
*Wingman, Leader, Warrior. And we wonder why we have so many developing social issues in our military today. TI's are the frontlines for senior leadership, like it or not. And while yes, the actions of a few knuckleheads shouldn't put a black eye to the majority, you better believe that this is doing every bit as much damage to the AF image as Tailhook did over 20 decades ago for the Navy.
*I will not fail. Need I say more?

Look...I saw TI's are 85% manned right now. That's causing a huge amount of stress to enter in. Testosterone, stress, vulnerable girls, knowing (thinking?) you can get away with it, no one will know, no one will tell (hence all the obstruction of justice charges in this case too). So, in a very small way, the AF is to blame for allowing manning to hit this point, and put that stress onto all TI's.

But all this being said: It's wrong, it's against the law, and you can argue the merits of whether a girl should share responsibility as the TI...but the girl is going to be scarred for life anyway. And that damage will last long after that TI gets out of jail.

I would say, both sides lose equally, but the TI is the one who ultimately has responsibility for their actions as the leader, mentor and the one Gen Rice and senior AF leadership entrusts to mold the leaders of the AF tomorrow.

At the end of the day, it's just sad.

You do realize that the USAF did perfectly well without the "Core Values" from 1947 until the mid-90's, right? And that we did not have these scandals? The same with the Creed.

And you do understand why the USAF implemented the "Core Values"? Some of us were living and had quite a few years under our belts when it was implemented. We know perfectly well what led to it.

Nothing against the "Core Values". I support them. But it is important to understand context.

Z1911
06-30-2012, 09:38 PM
Reference page one of this post. I said exactly the same thing. There are no issues with integration after boot camp. But basic should be separated and TI's should not be allowed to interface with recruits of the opposite sex. Easy and best fix for those with common sense. For those who live in the US of PC A it won't happen. But this argument fails as it does happen still in the Marine Corps, and it works just fine. Just need someone with enough balls in the air force or government to demand the change, and follow through with it. Not a hard fix, orders stating male TIs for male recruits, female TIs for female recruits, no interactions period!

This is a too elegantly simple, zero cost, idiot-proof, easy solution. Hence the reason(s) it will never (unfortunately) be adopted. Besides, I do not believe ANYONE in USAFCo management has big enough balls to recommend, institute, and follow through with it.

Big Blue is going to have a very hard time resolving it's cranial rectal inversion on this one.

Airborne
06-30-2012, 10:27 PM
.....We know perfectly well what led to it.

Nothing against the "Core Values". I support them. But it is important to understand context.

Could you enlighten us youngsters.

Orion
06-30-2012, 10:30 PM
Didn't Sheppard just have an IG Investigation for the same thing? Unprofessional Conduct between trainees and instructors?

MaintChief
06-30-2012, 10:45 PM
Could you enlighten us youngsters.

Some monumental fuck-ups after the first Gulf War The first one that comes to mind is the shooting down of the Blackhawk helicopter by an F-15 and the blame being put on the back-end crew of the E-3 AWACS providing radar surveillance and C&C of the area. Basically the F-15 took a missile shot without positive ID of the target. This was in the no-fly zone over Iraq. The Blackhawk went down, killing everyone on board. The subsequent "investigation", if you could call it that, pinned the blame on an AWACS mission crew. The next fuck up was the court martial of two F-15 mechanics in Germany. AN F-15 took off and crashed. Investigation showed that the flight controls were cross connected. The mechanics were the last to work the flight controls. Here is where it gets good...the pilot ignored his -1, the cross connected flight controls would have been found if he was doing his checklist. Next, there was a known and identified problem with the maintenance T.O. that allowed this to happen. The depot would not implement changes....I can't recall the reason but I think it was along the lines of it wasn't deemed serious enough for the cost involved. One of the mechs committed suicide. Then there was the B-52 crash at Fairchild by a known hotdog pilot.

Fogleman believed that the USAF had moved away from a shared, common set of "core values" because of the underlying causes of the above and other problems. I believe it was 1996 when it first came about.

Anyways, here is a good read if you want background:
http://capmembers.com/media/cms/Gurus_Guide2_642B47DEF42FD.pdf

F4CrewChick
06-30-2012, 11:25 PM
By all press accounts you are wrong. And yes, I understand the press isn't always right. Maybe this is the perfect opportunity to start indoctrinating our younger Airmen on the cold realities of life? You don't always get what you want, and you can't stay connected 24/7.
I welcome the old stand in line for the payphones approach. I think ALL trainees should have male and female TIs. I think single-sex flights work best for a number of reasons and the integration of the sexes happens in tech school while still under fairly strict supervision. I think the 'tiered approach' to 'The Real Air Force' is gradual and effective.

MaintChief
06-30-2012, 11:26 PM
I welcome the old stand in line for the payphones approach. I think ALL trainees should have male and female TIs. I think single-sex flights work best for a number of reasons and the integration of the sexes happens in tech school while still under fairly strict supervision. I think the 'tiered approach' to 'The Real Air Force' is gradual and effective.

I like the way you think.

F4CrewChick
06-30-2012, 11:41 PM
I like the way you think.
Right backatcha Chief.

JD2780
06-30-2012, 11:47 PM
THis is just an obvious example of whats going on in todays AF. We got SSgt hooking up with airmen as soon as they arrive on station. You've got MSgts hooking up with SrA. Same thing goes on in the officer corps. Dont even get me started on the orgy we call OEF. The adultery and trolling for each others baby makers is gross at best.

KellyinAvon
06-30-2012, 11:48 PM
I welcome the old stand in line for the payphones approach. I think ALL trainees should have male and female TIs. I think single-sex flights work best for a number of reasons and the integration of the sexes happens in tech school while still under fairly strict supervision. I think the 'tiered approach' to 'The Real Air Force' is gradual and effective.
So where is this "Real Air Force" you speak of?? :biggrin
It seems like it's not the trainees (who have spent most of their lives around members of the opposite sex), it's the people with the power. When the group becomes the most important thing (opposed to the mission, training in this case) there will be significant problems. How many co-workers knew of this and did nothing? This isn't new and definitly isn't limited to TIs.

F4CrewChick
06-30-2012, 11:59 PM
So where is this "Real Air Force" you speak of?? :biggrin
It seems like it's not the trainees (who have spent most of their lives around members of the opposite sex), it's the people with the power. When the group becomes the most important thing (opposed to the mission, training in this case) there will be significant problems. How many co-workers knew of this and did nothing? This isn't new and definitly isn't limited to TIs."The Real Air Force" was of course in quotes. Once out of tech school and at one's first PCS, we do start to experience the AF as 'just a job' without all the nonsense instilled by the 341 experience of Basic. The problem certainly lie in the officer leadership and utter irresponsibility of the TIs engaged in this predatory behavior. I think if we go back to the older style of BMT as I outlined above, these situations would occur much less frequently.

Insofar as TIs not being the only problem, this is true but this thread is very specifically about them and their incredible lack of self-control. Other situations involving instructors or other personnel are covered by sexual harassment or sexual abuse guidelines and policies.

seatmech2412
07-01-2012, 05:32 AM
Reference page one of this post. I said exactly the same thing. There are no issues with integration after boot camp. But basic should be separated and TI's should not be allowed to interface with recruits of the opposite sex. Easy and best fix for those with common sense. For those who live in the US of PC A it won't happen. But this argument fails as it does happen still in the Marine Corps, and it works just fine. Just need someone with enough balls in the air force or government to demand the change, and follow through with it. Not a hard fix, orders stating male TIs for male recruits, female TIs for female recruits, no interactions period!

DADT has been repealed..... so your argument is meaningless now....... Unless you intend to split things up so same sex that prefer same sex will not be in charge of a same sex flight and all the other possible combinations that comes along with DADT Repeal.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-01-2012, 06:08 AM
Total non sequitur here but what the hell...

When I went through basic in 1983 there was some hokey rock back
in San Antonio that had a bunch of power ballads about AF BMT.

The only song I can remember was 341... I think the chorus had the words, "Don't take it away!"

Anyone remember hearing that crap?

My first tech school was at Lackland and some guys found a cassette tape in the day room with that song and a few others on it.

Can't remember the name of the group... Although, it sounds like shit Tops in Blue would do I don't think it was...

KellyinAvon
07-01-2012, 10:11 AM
Total non sequitur here but what the hell...

When I went through basic in 1983 there was some hokey rock back
in San Antonio that had a bunch of power ballads about AF BMT.

The only song I can remember was 341... I think the chorus had the words, "Don't take it away!"

Anyone remember hearing that crap?

My first tech school was at Lackland and some guys found a cassette tape in the day room with that song and a few others on it.

Can't remember the name of the group... Although, it sounds like shit Tops in Blue would do I don't think it was...

There was a 341 song and "Yesterday I was a Rainbow" rings a bell, although more country than power balad. The Peddlers maybe?? Not all the brain cells that were around to hear that survived Keflavik and Taegu.

KellyinAvon
07-01-2012, 10:33 AM
"The Real Air Force" was of course in quotes. Once out of tech school and at one's first PCS, we do start to experience the AF as 'just a job' without all the nonsense instilled by the 341 experience of Basic. The problem certainly lie in the officer leadership and utter irresponsibility of the TIs engaged in this predatory behavior. I think if we go back to the older style of BMT as I outlined above, these situations would occur much less frequently.

Insofar as TIs not being the only problem, this is true but this thread is very specifically about them and their incredible lack of self-control. Other situations involving instructors or other personnel are covered by sexual harassment or sexual abuse guidelines and policies.

I saw the number is up to 11 on www.af.mil
I keep coming back to a group of individuals who haven't thought about the consequences (which EVERYONE is aware of) think they won't get caught, or the very small group has all of its members involved (either with sex with trainees or looking the other way). AB Gurney acted alone (ok, it was in groups of 2 and sometimes 3, but it was Gurney, not Gurney and all the FAMs at AFMC). Fiscus (2-star JAG, retired as a Colonel, heard he may have lost 2 tee-times also) didn't have the AF/JA staff acting as a predatory sex team. That and the fact these were basic trainees (the perception with this due to amount of power a TI has over the flight) is why this will be very different than the Gurney/Fiscus deals. The bad news for Smeghead and his counterparts is they will deal with the fallout long after its forgotten.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-01-2012, 10:59 AM
There was a 341 song and "Yesterday I was a Rainbow" rings a bell, although more country than power balad. The Peddlers maybe?? Not all the brain cells that were around to hear that survived Keflavik and Taegu.

The Peddlers? I'll try some googles with your extra information.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-01-2012, 11:10 AM
There was a 341 song and "Yesterday I was a Rainbow" rings a bell, although more country than power balad. The Peddlers maybe?? Not all the brain cells that were around to hear that survived Keflavik and Taegu.

You were right!
http://www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/947818-american-peddlers

THE PEDDLERS disbanded in 1988 their official fan club had over 20,000 active members. 'THE REDNECK MOTHERS' CLUB" fans remain loyal to their wonderful memories of⦠"THE AMERICAN PEDDLERS"


The AMERICAN PEDDLERS formed in the early 1970's in San Antonio, Texas. Later known as "THE PEDDLERS" this rock and roll band rapidly became the most popular band on the US Air Force circuit. Their popularity with the young airmen soon took them to Air Force Bases all over America. In 1976 THE PEDDLERS put together a 2 hour show called "ROCK & ROLL AMERICA" in conjunction with Americas' bicentennial celebration. The show covered the evolution of rock and roll music from it's beginning in the 1950's to the most current rock of the 1970's.

KellyinAvon
07-01-2012, 11:32 AM
You were right!
http://www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/947818-american-peddlers

THE PEDDLERS disbanded in 1988 their official fan club had over 20,000 active members. 'THE REDNECK MOTHERS' CLUB" fans remain loyal to their wonderful memories of⦠"THE AMERICAN PEDDLERS"


The AMERICAN PEDDLERS formed in the early 1970's in San Antonio, Texas. Later known as "THE PEDDLERS" this rock and roll band rapidly became the most popular band on the US Air Force circuit. Their popularity with the young airmen soon took them to Air Force Bases all over America. In 1976 THE PEDDLERS put together a 2 hour show called "ROCK & ROLL AMERICA" in conjunction with Americas' bicentennial celebration. The show covered the evolution of rock and roll music from it's beginning in the 1950's to the most current rock of the 1970's.

How could I forget "Lackland Laser"?? I can see why they broke up, AF Basic Trainees/tech school students is a bit of a niche market. I seem to remember seeing them at Lowry AFB when I was in tech school in 86. They did an excellent cover of ZZ Top's Waitin on the Bus/Jesus just left Chicago.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-01-2012, 11:40 AM
How could I forget "Lackland Laser"?? I can see why they broke up, AF Basic Trainees/tech school students is a bit of a niche market. I seem to remember seeing them at Lowry AFB when I was in tech school in 86. They did an excellent cover of ZZ Top's Waitin on the Bus/Jesus just left Chicago.

I remember about half of us thought they sucked the other half liked them..

So niche market indeed... I wouldn't mind listening to a few tracks just for kicks but I'm not paying to download that stuff.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-01-2012, 11:41 AM
How could I forget "Lackland Laser"?? I can see why they broke up, AF Basic Trainees/tech school students is a bit of a niche market. I seem to remember seeing them at Lowry AFB when I was in tech school in 86. They did an excellent cover of ZZ Top's Waitin on the Bus/Jesus just left Chicago.

I remember about half of us thought they sucked the other half liked them..

So niche market indeed... I wouldn't mind listening to a few tracks just for kicks but I'm not paying to download that stuff.

Forsaken Wombat
07-01-2012, 12:21 PM
This behavior is typical of the increasingly self-absorbed NCO corps. Years ago, a SSgt was a seasoned NCO whose experience and maturity ensured the job got done right and their subordinates learned & developed properly. A TSgt could be painted with the same brush, and your SNCOs were rarely seen but almost always revered by the younger ranks.

Now, many NCOs are simply out for themselves, the Air Force and their subordinates be damned. Too often have I seen NCOs using their rank and position to get some young female tail. When I have stepped in (privately, of course), I become the bad guy. I have not seen female NCOs use their influence to get some young guys but I'm sure it happens.

Attraction cannot be helped - if a young, female A1C and a male SSgt find themselves attracted to one another, mutual and unforced, a relationship that does not affect the chain of command or impact duties/morale...fine. May their love last until one of them deploys or goes to Korea for a year. But this ever-burgeoning abuse of power by those that hold it, sacrificing integrity, trust, and their standing as NCOs simply for some sex, is just another example of the "Me Me Me" attitude that has been trickling into the increasingly-immature NCO corps for years. With this crap going on at Lackland, something about a "tip" and "iceberg" comes to mind...

Z1911
07-01-2012, 08:59 PM
Many moons ago F4CrewChick posted a photo of herself from the neck down. Trust me...Mr. Garrison she most definitely ain't!!!

Not sure about the neck down part, but I do remember this 11-07-2010 post from her...



Me
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4124/4987743001_cdb4cc728c_s.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/f4crewchick/4987743001/)
hangin' at Pride (http://www.flickr.com/photos/f4crewchick/4987743001/) by F4CrewChick (http://www.flickr.com/people/f4crewchick/), on Flickr

Z1911
07-01-2012, 09:08 PM
You were right!
http://www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/947818-american-peddlers

THE PEDDLERS disbanded in 1988 their official fan club had over 20,000 active members. 'THE REDNECK MOTHERS' CLUB" fans remain loyal to their wonderful memories of⦠"THE AMERICAN PEDDLERS"


The AMERICAN PEDDLERS formed in the early 1970's in San Antonio, Texas. Later known as "THE PEDDLERS" this rock and roll band rapidly became the most popular band on the US Air Force circuit. Their popularity with the young airmen soon took them to Air Force Bases all over America. In 1976 THE PEDDLERS put together a 2 hour show called "ROCK & ROLL AMERICA" in conjunction with Americas' bicentennial celebration. The show covered the evolution of rock and roll music from it's beginning in the 1950's to the most current rock of the 1970's.

Found this on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr3ktoKseks

F4CrewChick
07-02-2012, 02:47 AM
Not sure about the neck down part, but I do remember this 11-07-2010 post from her...
Yes, this is me at Gay Pride in SF. I just found my green 3707 BMTS tee-shirt, threadbare and ancient and thought I might post a more recent pic.
How about you guys? Any old pics, new pics? It would be great to 'see' the faces I have made up in my imagination. Once I take a pic, I'll post a "Photos " thread and tell you who ever post one, how I pictured you in my mind.

Tak
07-02-2012, 02:56 AM
Not sure about the neck down part, but I do remember this 11-07-2010 post from her...

Spanktravision

F4CrewChick
07-02-2012, 03:27 AM
SpanktravisionNever flunked a PT test...

GoatDriver57
07-02-2012, 04:01 AM
Never flunked a PT test...

& "green 3707 BMTS tee"----------- I was in the 3708. We were not too far from almost being connected.
Whats a few light years?

Never flunked the PT test? I never did either. Passing the '5BX' was worse than a real -itch. It required one black Bic ball point to get thru that living -ell. ;).

JD2780
07-02-2012, 04:13 AM
This behavior is typical of the increasingly self-absorbed NCO corps. Years ago, a SSgt was a seasoned NCO whose experience and maturity ensured the job got done right and their subordinates learned & developed properly. A TSgt could be painted with the same brush, and your SNCOs were rarely seen but almost always revered by the younger ranks.

Now, many NCOs are simply out for themselves, the Air Force and their subordinates be damned. Too often have I seen NCOs using their rank and position to get some young female tail. When I have stepped in (privately, of course), I become the bad guy. I have not seen female NCOs use their influence to get some young guys but I'm sure it happens.

Attraction cannot be helped - if a young, female A1C and a male SSgt find themselves attracted to one another, mutual and unforced, a relationship that does not affect the chain of command or impact duties/morale...fine. May their love last until one of them deploys or goes to Korea for a year. But this ever-burgeoning abuse of power by those that hold it, sacrificing integrity, trust, and their standing as NCOs simply for some sex, is just another example of the "Me Me Me" attitude that has been trickling into the increasingly-immature NCO corps for years. With this crap going on at Lackland, something about a "tip" and "iceberg" comes to mind...

Yea the SNCOs have nothing to do with this. They developed the current JrNCO's. I've seen plenty of SMSgts and CMSgts completely out for themselves. Its not isolated. Its across the AF. Get your head out of the sand.

BRUWIN
07-02-2012, 04:34 AM
I've seen plenty of SMSgts and CMSgts completely out for themselves.

Only in the last 5 months or so...prior to that all Chief's were pretty upstanding people.

F4CrewChick
07-02-2012, 04:54 AM
& "green 3707 BMTS tee"----------- I was in the 3708. We were not too far from almost being connected.
Whats a few light years?

Never flunked the PT test? I never did either. Passing the '5BX' was worse than a real -itch. It required one black Bic ball point to get thru that living -ell. ;).
One of my really good friends was in the '06th.. We started Basic on the same day in squadrons next door to each other but didn't know it til years later.

Remember "Field Day?" My squadron during my time at Basic, won every single event, a feat never before and I think never since achieved by a single squadron. I ran 3rd leg of the 400 relay and was on the tug-of-war team. Good times.

BRUWIN
07-02-2012, 06:36 AM
Being as the BMT squadron one was assigned too was generally determined by ASVAB score, those in the 3701st were like the most prized trainees and then the leftovers were assigned down to the other squadron's from there. I was in the 3701st. Eating in the Chow Hall will those from the 3722nd squadron was like eating with monkeys.

Pullinteeth
07-02-2012, 12:22 PM
Reference page one of this post. I said exactly the same thing. There are no issues with integration after boot camp. But basic should be separated and TI's should not be allowed to interface with recruits of the opposite sex. Easy and best fix for those with common sense. For those who live in the US of PC A it won't happen. But this argument fails as it does happen still in the Marine Corps, and it works just fine. Just need someone with enough balls in the air force or government to demand the change, and follow through with it. Not a hard fix, orders stating male TIs for male recruits, female TIs for female recruits, no interactions period!

Apparently you have no idea what you are talking about because if you go over to the USMC section, there is a thread on how women shouldn't be in the Corps because male Marines are a bunch of rapists that cant' control themselves so the only solution is to not have women in the Corps...


Why does the AF only address sexual assault being against women.
Maybe something happened to me 'I wish'

When I was deployed an Army dude got raped by a TCN that bashed him over the head with a frozen water bottle while he was doing PT (ANOTHER reason not to do PT). Is THAT what you are looking for?

Forsaken Wombat
07-02-2012, 12:28 PM
Yea the SNCOs have nothing to do with this. They developed the current JrNCO's. I've seen plenty of SMSgts and CMSgts completely out for themselves. Its not isolated. Its across the AF. Get your head out of the sand.

My head is out of the sand, JD. How about you reel your head in a bit and chill. Many of the NCOs today are a product of a generation that is all about "Me Me Me", all about self-absorption. It's not the Air Force's fault mostly but it is fast becoming the Air Force's problem wholly. But you'll be a Mr. soon and be leaving this all behind.

JD2780
07-02-2012, 12:36 PM
Yes I'll be leaving it behind but I'm still a JrNCO until that day passes. Apparently you still think the SNCOs have nothing to do with the current issue. Those SNCOs have the duty of building NCOs and perhaps they have failed. Many of the todays SNCOs are of the same generation or are at the tail end of the generation parented many of these Airmen and JrNCOs.

Some of it is the AF fault by catering to every whine the JrNCOs utter.

akruse
07-02-2012, 02:02 PM
JrNCO is a term that needs to go away.

Z1911
07-02-2012, 06:23 PM
JrNCO is a term that needs to go away.

What would you prefer:
- Non-Senior NCO?
- Un-Senior NCO?
- Less-than-Senior NCO?

Kegler
07-02-2012, 06:47 PM
JrNCO is a term that needs to go away.

Agree


What would you prefer:
- Non-Senior NCO?
- Un-Senior NCO?
- Less-than-Senior NCO?

How about NCO

Z1911
07-02-2012, 08:39 PM
JrNCO is a term that needs to go away.

Agree


What would you prefer:
- Non-Senior NCO?
- Un-Senior NCO?
- Less-than-Senior NCO?

How about NCO

Then what would those self horn tooting E-7 thru E-9s call themselves in order to differentiate themselves from the lower lifeforms?:whistle

Kegler
07-02-2012, 09:29 PM
Then what would those self horn tooting E-7 thru E-9s call themselves in order to differentiate themselves from the lower lifeforms?:whistle

Maybe it is already defined. Lets see

Junior Enlisted Airman Tier - E1-E4
NCO Tier - E5-E6
SNCO Tier - E7-E9

Yup....done...cant find the JrNCO Tier anywhere....shit

F4CrewChick
07-02-2012, 11:12 PM
Maybe it is already defined. Lets see

Junior Enlisted Airman Tier - E1-E4
NCO Tier - E5-E6
SNCO Tier - E7-E9

Yup....done...cant find the JrNCO Tier anywhere....shit

They should have NEVER gotten rid of buck sergeant, that aside, the NCO tier E-5/E-6, IS junior to E7-E9 but I see it more in the model of junior and senior senators. It's less about some sort of subtle dig and more about who has more power by virtue of length of time in the position. Not really sure what's got you 'junior NCOs' all twisted up about.

(shift change, I have a 20 minute break, hallelujah)

jarhead dad
07-02-2012, 11:25 PM
Apparently you have no idea what you are talking about because if you go over to the USMC section, there is a thread on how women shouldn't be in the Corps because male Marines are a bunch of rapists that cant' control themselves so the only solution is to not have women in the Corps...



When I was deployed an Army dude got raped by a TCN that bashed him over the head with a frozen water bottle while he was doing PT (ANOTHER reason not to do PT). Is THAT what you are looking for?

Must be the new improved Corps! Also this issue of raping female Marines,this doesn't occur in boot camp since they are not allowed to intermingle. Problems during basic training is the original topic is it not?

As far as women being in the Marine Corps, this has been an issue since they were called "BAMS" starting in WWII! Some men just don't like their organizational, cleaning and typing skills! (yes I'm joking)

Women in combat, no, all other jobs go for it! You know as well as I do that some of us guys wouldn't and don't want to see women in any of the services. All women should stay at home and have our martinis ready for us when we get home from the hard day at work!!

Kegler
07-02-2012, 11:36 PM
Not really sure what's got you 'junior NCOs' all twisted up about.

Not twisted...just think it is dumb. Also not a Jr NCO. Retired Chief maybe...but not a Jr NCO

efmbman
07-02-2012, 11:52 PM
Back to the topic of MTI's at Lackland... did anyone else notice there is a link in the News section of af.mil about a new smartphone app for info about joining the ranks of the Air Force Military Training Instructor Corps...?

Makes sense I guess... I figure there are open billets available now.

JD2780
07-03-2012, 01:31 AM
Us JrNCOs are fucked up because of the mentors we've had throughout our careers. Just saying.

Also I've heard many CMSgts refer to us as JrNCOs. I've also heard NCO. So maybe its like calling somebody a troop in the AF. One of things thats not written down anywhere but people commonly refer to subordinates as troops.

JD2780
07-03-2012, 01:35 AM
Back to the topic of MTI's at Lackland... did anyone else notice there is a link in the News section of af.mil about a new smartphone app for info about joining the ranks of the Air Force Military Training Instructor Corps...?

Makes sense I guess... I figure there are open billets available now.

There are tons of billets open, not related to this incident. I went down there to shadow some. It didnt take long before I realized how great they are in their own minds. They eat their own talk shit about each other constantly. They also go running to mom and dad and narc'ing on each other instead of addressing the issue with that instructor. Its pathetic. I gave an out brief to one of the Sups and I told him everything I saw and said I dont want to work with a group of people like this.

Plus I enjoy my marriage, no 14-20 hrs days for me. Screw that. I chose my family.

BRUWIN
07-03-2012, 01:48 AM
Also I've heard many CMSgts refer to us as JrNCOs. I've also heard NCO.

This Chief never did...I always referred to them as "The Minions."

JD2780
07-03-2012, 02:03 AM
This Chief never did...I always referred to them as "The Minions."

Bottom feeders, or cave dwellers.

MaintChief
07-03-2012, 06:36 AM
Bottom feeders, or cave dwellers.

I called them "the youngsters". Considering I was literally old enough to be their father, in most cases, it was appropriate.

satxcharger
07-03-2012, 06:55 AM
I have been reading the responses on this forum for awhile now and it amazes me that there are so many people that will criticize the MTI corps, and say what needs to be done to fix the problem. You have no clue what really goes on there. Let’s not forget that you did not raise your hand to do the job and never had any intention to. I was an MTI from Jun 04 till Dec 09 and I’m proud to say that I will be returning to MTI duty Jan 13.

The problem with this situation is twofold, and while separating the females from the males may solve the problem. It will create and even greater problem if not several more and add greater stress on a career field that is already stressful enough. So many have called for this segregation so let look at its effects shall we.
Due to the low percentage of female MTIs if we do in fact separate the genders that would mean the current female instructors would have to shoulder the load until more female instructors are brought in. How will this happen with the current lack of female applicants? I can tell you now getting more female MTIs will not be a volunteer basis this will be voluntold. Woman Air Force wide that have the “5” EPRs, “great records”, and are able bodied will find themselves faced with going to BMT or getting out. Guess what folks they have tried the mandatory thing before and people dropped like flies. Speaking from experience there is nothing worse than an MTI that doesn’t want to be an MTI. He/She becomes a burden to the instructors around them and their flights are garbage due to the lack of effort. That usually means the instructor is pulled off the flight and another instructor is placed on the flight. Guess where they get that instructor? He/ she probably just got done with a flight, and was looking forward to some much deserved down time or maybe even leave. All that goes out the door cause the mission comes first; ladies and gentlemen separation is a no go . With the sudden influx of female instructors when the female flights are low what do those female instructors do? They can’t push male flights right cause now we have separation. Do they get down time? What kind of division does that create in the career field? Does the Air Force have enough woman to fill this role? What career fields do you think they will come from? Oh and just cause you see 82% manning doesn’t mean that’s the actual manning situation the real number is around 62% cause all MTIs don’t push flights plus these knuckle heads that are on trial they still count towards the manning doc. Plus you have to consider leave attrition rate etc…

I know someone will say "well the marine corps does it. They don’t have these manning issues". Have you ever asked how the Marine Corps is able to do it? I’ll tell you how once you reach a certain rank you have to decide your career path one of those paths is being a D.I. another is recruiter and there might be a few others. Of course we all know the needs of your service come first. So basically you are going to choose what they have a available or get out. Let’s not forget to mention the Marine Corps is a smaller service. That my friends is how they are able to fill their D.I. slots and separate the genders. Is there anyone raising their hands to go this route? Come on now Core Values right? I didn’t think so. Why cause very few people want to do this job. So think about the uproar the Lazy Air force will have when they are made to do it. We didn’t even want to do PT so why would we want to be MTIs, and give back to a service that has given you your lively hood that crazy talk isn’t it?

The best solution to fix these issue is this.

1) The Air force needs to stop trying to reinvent the wheel. Get rid of MTLs no other service has them they provide nothing to the Air Force if anything they hurt the Air Force as any First line supervisor knows. Oh and by the way the MTLs go to the same school house as MTIs and they supposedly learn the same thing (yeah right). Take the MTL manning and combine it with the MTIs. Now manning can go up and there is continuity from the beginning till they get to their first duty station yes that means MTIs at tech school. The trade off will be more disciplined Airman this is what the army does by the way. Another benefit will be that MTIs will learn how to be well rounded NCOs. I have to say I didn’t learn how to write a LOC or any other type of paper work until I came back to the Operational Air force. As an MTI in the tech school environment these skills will be learned and taken back to the operational Air Force upon return to the individuals career field.
2) With the manning raised more instructors per flight can happen. Let’s build our instructor teams the way the Marine corps builds theirs to include one female instructor per team. More eyes mean less time to get stupid.
3) Shipping female flight can only be shipped by female instructors even if it’s from a diff squadron , CQ and a section supervisor can ship the flights, or the flight instructors can ship the flight but a section supervisor must be there.
4) Stop letting instructor get their hats as soon as they get to the school house make them learn to respect the job they are going to do and respect those that came before them. This was a recent change and in my opinion has lowered the standard cause this new breed of MTIs think that cause they wear the hat they are MTIs when really they are students and should be treated as such. I wore my soft cap and pushed my first flight I learned to respect those that came before me even though I hated a few I still respected them. I think fundamentally respect for the job has been lost so things like what we are reading about has gone up. I was told the hat doesn’t make you, you make the hat. These guys didn’t learn that.

All these take away the opportunity to do something stupid, and it also relieves the stress of being an MTI. This in theory should drive up applicants which in turn should raise manning. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard " MTIs work long hours that’s why I can’t do that" or " I'm not mean like that" Being an MTI is not as bad as most think. Yes there are bad days but if anyone says they don’t have them in their current job let me know cause Ill cross train into that one. People we are the only service that identify ourselves by the jobs we do marine corps= marine army=soldier navy=sailor Air Force= AFSC its sad and needs to change fast.

Get to know some MTIs before you speak out about how bad we are or that we have a boys club and abuse our power. To have so much power and to have so much responsibility is a scary thing sometimes, and learning to balance it is a hard thing to do. Like I said get to know a MTI you will quickly find out that this behavior that these dirt bags have displayed is not the norm, and is not tolerated. For those that have read the articles one of the dirt bags even said that the other MTIs wouldn’t even talk to them they were blacklist so to speak.
Sorry for the long comment but I can’t sit back and watch an organization that has made me in to the man ,father, NCO, and Airman I am today be trampled upon.

satxcharger
07-03-2012, 07:07 AM
There are tons of billets open, not related to this incident. I went down there to shadow some. It didnt take long before I realized how great they are in their own minds. They eat their own talk shit about each other constantly. They also go running to mom and dad and narc'ing on each other instead of addressing the issue with that instructor. Its pathetic. I gave an out brief to one of the Sups and I told him everything I saw and said I dont want to work with a group of people like this.

Plus I enjoy my marriage, no 14-20 hrs days for me. Screw that. I chose my family.

Really? Your right we do eat our own. It helps get the weak instructors to either conform or leave. As far as talking shit about each other can you say that doesn’t happen in the Air Force period? Get real guy your living in a fantasy world. Narcing on each other really are you serious? Maybe if there was this Narcing that you claim we wouldnt be on this thread. Can you say that this doesn’t happen in the Operational Air Force as well? You sir are pathetic. You may have shadowed but you obviously didn’t have you eyes open. Just say you couldnt handle doing the job, and be on your way. I am married my wife and I were street pushing TI's at the same time. We have two kids and our marriage is stronger than ever. So your claim about your marriage is your own issue, and the fact that you can’t do the job for fear of your marriage should tell you a lot about the strength of said marriage.

golfer55
07-03-2012, 07:30 AM
Why in THE HELL would these scum bag bottom feeders do this shit and prey on our fellow airman? Are they that freakin desperate they have to resort to messing with young EXTREMELY vulnerable recruits? I hope they all get jail time. They are nothing but pieces of shit

BRUWIN
07-03-2012, 07:39 AM
I have been reading the responses on this forum for awhile now and it amazes me that there are so many people that will criticize the MTI corps, and say what needs to be done to fix the problem. You have no clue what really goes on there.

Well...we have all went to basic training at one point so I would guess that 100% of your active duty folks that responded in this forum have a little bit of a clue of what goes on there. And we have what now, 31 females telling us other things that go on there? Sorry....you're jumping down the throats of the wrong people. MTI's as a group have some serious issues at this point and our opinions about it are only to help. Believe me...it doesn't exactly fill me with pride to know what's been going on there.

If I was an MTI right now I'd sit back...absorb the suggestions, and use those you may be able to apply. I suggest MTI's be castrated prior to being approved for MTI duty, maybe you could take that one to Lackland when you go and see if it gets any traction with leadership.

satxcharger
07-03-2012, 08:14 AM
Well...we have all went to basic training at one point so I would guess that 100% of your active duty folks that responded in this forum have a little bit of a clue of what goes on there. And we have what now, 31 females telling us other things that go on there? Sorry....you're jumping down the throats of the wrong people. MTI's as a group have some serious issues at this point and our opinions about it are only to help. Believe me...it doesn't exactly fill me with pride to know what's been going on there.

If I was an MTI right now I'd sit back...absorb the suggestions, and use those you may be able to apply. I suggest MTI's be castrated prior to being approved for MTI duty, maybe you could take that one to Lackland when you go and see if it gets any traction with leadership.

Funny guy I see. really what clue do you have? I have to tell you I thought that I knew what was going on when I got there in 2004 and to my amazement I was in for a rude awakening i thought it was about yelling power and control. I quickly realized that I need those trainees just as much as they needed me and in order for us to make it thru the program we had to work together. Unless you know the inner working of the program you your opinion is just that and carries no weight. Actually Sir you have 31 incidents in AETC not all at BMT so this would include MTLs, tech school instructors etc... has it been reported that The females in question had every opportunity to report ANY misbehavior by and MTI? Did you know that a trainee can make a frivolous accusation that has no truth to it whatsoever and the MTI will be pulled off the flight until an investigation has been conducted? Did you know that the trainees carry with them critique forms and can turn these forms into ANY permanent party personnel at anytime not just MTIs or in the squadron area? Has it been reported that the females in question did in fact know that they were not to be downstairs after lights out unless there was an emergency in their dormitory? So my conclusion is SOME were willing parties and were not forced into this. My point is this given the nature of the case all facts aren’t being reported. The sad part is there are a few woman in this case that truly are victims and their voice is not being heard. MTIs do not have some serious issues cause the average MTI is not committing this egregious act. BMT has a serious issue due to the nature of the crime. As I explained in my last post your opinion would not help cause you do not know the inner workings of BMT, and your opinions specifically would cause further stress on BMT and the Air force as a whole. As far as the castration we can start with you first.

satxcharger
07-03-2012, 08:29 AM
Why in THE HELL would these scum bag bottom feeders do this shit and prey on our fellow airman? Are they that freakin desperate they have to resort to messing with young EXTREMELY vulnerable recruits? I hope they all get jail time. They are nothing but pieces of shit

You are correct with everything you have said except that the trainee is vulnerable. They are not vulnerable as you may think i know that it is hard to believe but the trainee has power you might not think so given your experience in BMT but it is different now just like the rest of the world it is more PC. I’ll give you an example. A trainee failed his PT test 3 times and was going to be admin discharged but due to his parents being good friends with the senator of Virginia he was sent back to BMT and allowed to graduate. Is that fair? Is that not power? Female trainees target there instructors just like some females target their bosses. this is nothing new and it should be viewed through this lense at some point in the investigation process when determining fault. In no way am I saying that these guys shouldn’t be punished and given as much time as possible. What I am saying is the females that are complicit in the act should be punished as well.

BRUWIN
07-03-2012, 08:46 AM
So my conclusion is SOME were willing parties and were not forced into this. My point is this given the nature of the case all facts aren’t being reported.

I think your conclusions are a bit premature being as you have as much access to info on this issue as I do. Any chance these young ladies had of convincing these TIs that sex was not part of the equation was nixed when you guys insisted they carry blue guns instead of real ones.

SENDBILLMONEY
07-03-2012, 09:57 AM
Has it been reported that the females in question did in fact know that they were not to be downstairs after lights out unless there was an emergency in their dormitory? So my conclusion is SOME were willing parties and were not forced into this.

My opinion is that when one party in a relationship has all the power, it's impossible for the other party to give meaningful consent. It doesn't matter how hot and willing and evil and manipulative that nubile 18-year-old AB temptress is. All the MTIs have to do is keep their peckers in their pants and do their damn jobs.

imported_DannyJ
07-03-2012, 10:06 AM
My rule is in life, don't mix work and play. Has worked for me for 30+ years so far...

Forsaken Wombat
07-03-2012, 10:27 AM
Funny guy I see.

BRUWIN is funny in the same way that Satan is a gentleman.

satxcharger
07-03-2012, 11:04 AM
My opinion is that when one party in a relationship has all the power, it's impossible for the other party to give meaningful consent. It doesn't matter how hot and willing and evil and manipulative that nubile 18-year-old AB temptress is. All the MTIs have to do is keep their peckers in their pants and do their damn jobs.

What power do you think an MTI has?

briefer
07-03-2012, 11:14 AM
It doesn't matter how hot and willing and evil and manipulative that nubile 18-year-old AB temptress is.

I recall the words of one TSgt Eusay, my TI in the 322. "They're nasty. They get just as much time to shower as you do." That'd be enough to keep me on the straight and narrow. . .

Forsaken Wombat
07-03-2012, 11:43 AM
I recall the words of one TSgt Eusay, my TI in the 322. "They're nasty. They get just as much time to shower as you do." That'd be enough to keep me on the straight and narrow. . .

Like spreading open a warm, grilled-cheese sandwich with the scent of sun-ripened raw oysters.

Shrike
07-03-2012, 11:54 AM
I have been reading the responses on this forum for awhile now and it amazes me that there are so many people that will criticize the MTI corps, and say what needs to be done to fix the problem. You have no clue what really goes on there. Let’s not forget that you did not raise your hand to do the job and never had any intention to. I was an MTI from Jun 04 till Dec 09 and I’m proud to say that I will be returning to MTI duty Jan 13.

The problem with this situation is twofold, and while separating the females from the males may solve the problem. It will create and even greater problem if not several more and add greater stress on a career field that is already stressful enough. So many have called for this segregation so let look at its effects shall we.
Due to the low percentage of female MTIs if we do in fact separate the genders that would mean the current female instructors would have to shoulder the load until more female instructors are brought in. How will this happen with the current lack of female applicants? I can tell you now getting more female MTIs will not be a volunteer basis this will be voluntold. Woman Air Force wide that have the “5” EPRs, “great records”, and are able bodied will find themselves faced with going to BMT or getting out. Guess what folks they have tried the mandatory thing before and people dropped like flies. Speaking from experience there is nothing worse than an MTI that doesn’t want to be an MTI. He/She becomes a burden to the instructors around them and their flights are garbage due to the lack of effort. That usually means the instructor is pulled off the flight and another instructor is placed on the flight. Guess where they get that instructor? He/ she probably just got done with a flight, and was looking forward to some much deserved down time or maybe even leave. All that goes out the door cause the mission comes first; ladies and gentlemen separation is a no go . With the sudden influx of female instructors when the female flights are low what do those female instructors do? They can’t push male flights right cause now we have separation. Do they get down time? What kind of division does that create in the career field? Does the Air Force have enough woman to fill this role? What career fields do you think they will come from? Oh and just cause you see 82% manning doesn’t mean that’s the actual manning situation the real number is around 62% cause all MTIs don’t push flights plus these knuckle heads that are on trial they still count towards the manning doc. Plus you have to consider leave attrition rate etc…

I know someone will say "well the marine corps does it. They don’t have these manning issues". Have you ever asked how the Marine Corps is able to do it? I’ll tell you how once you reach a certain rank you have to decide your career path one of those paths is being a D.I. another is recruiter and there might be a few others. Of course we all know the needs of your service come first. So basically you are going to choose what they have a available or get out. Let’s not forget to mention the Marine Corps is a smaller service. That my friends is how they are able to fill their D.I. slots and separate the genders. Is there anyone raising their hands to go this route? Come on now Core Values right? I didn’t think so. Why cause very few people want to do this job. So think about the uproar the Lazy Air force will have when they are made to do it. We didn’t even want to do PT so why would we want to be MTIs, and give back to a service that has given you your lively hood that crazy talk isn’t it?

The best solution to fix these issue is this.

1) The Air force needs to stop trying to reinvent the wheel. Get rid of MTLs no other service has them they provide nothing to the Air Force if anything they hurt the Air Force as any First line supervisor knows. Oh and by the way the MTLs go to the same school house as MTIs and they supposedly learn the same thing (yeah right). Take the MTL manning and combine it with the MTIs. Now manning can go up and there is continuity from the beginning till they get to their first duty station yes that means MTIs at tech school. The trade off will be more disciplined Airman this is what the army does by the way. Another benefit will be that MTIs will learn how to be well rounded NCOs. I have to say I didn’t learn how to write a LOC or any other type of paper work until I came back to the Operational Air force. As an MTI in the tech school environment these skills will be learned and taken back to the operational Air Force upon return to the individuals career field.
2) With the manning raised more instructors per flight can happen. Let’s build our instructor teams the way the Marine corps builds theirs to include one female instructor per team. More eyes mean less time to get stupid.
3) Shipping female flight can only be shipped by female instructors even if it’s from a diff squadron , CQ and a section supervisor can ship the flights, or the flight instructors can ship the flight but a section supervisor must be there.
4) Stop letting instructor get their hats as soon as they get to the school house make them learn to respect the job they are going to do and respect those that came before them. This was a recent change and in my opinion has lowered the standard cause this new breed of MTIs think that cause they wear the hat they are MTIs when really they are students and should be treated as such. I wore my soft cap and pushed my first flight I learned to respect those that came before me even though I hated a few I still respected them. I think fundamentally respect for the job has been lost so things like what we are reading about has gone up. I was told the hat doesn’t make you, you make the hat. These guys didn’t learn that.

All these take away the opportunity to do something stupid, and it also relieves the stress of being an MTI. This in theory should drive up applicants which in turn should raise manning. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard " MTIs work long hours that’s why I can’t do that" or " I'm not mean like that" Being an MTI is not as bad as most think. Yes there are bad days but if anyone says they don’t have them in their current job let me know cause Ill cross train into that one. People we are the only service that identify ourselves by the jobs we do marine corps= marine army=soldier navy=sailor Air Force= AFSC its sad and needs to change fast.

Get to know some MTIs before you speak out about how bad we are or that we have a boys club and abuse our power. To have so much power and to have so much responsibility is a scary thing sometimes, and learning to balance it is a hard thing to do. Like I said get to know a MTI you will quickly find out that this behavior that these dirt bags have displayed is not the norm, and is not tolerated. For those that have read the articles one of the dirt bags even said that the other MTIs wouldn’t even talk to them they were blacklist so to speak.
Sorry for the long comment but I can’t sit back and watch an organization that has made me in to the man ,father, NCO, and Airman I am today be trampled upon.

I find it odd that nowhere in your list of "best solutions" is an option for "Have a subset of the male MTIs stop f%cking and raping the female trainees".

Pullinteeth
07-03-2012, 11:55 AM
I think your conclusions are a bit premature being as you have as much access to info on this issue as I do. Any chance these young ladies had of convincing these TIs that sex was not part of the equation was nixed when you guys insisted they carry blue guns instead of real ones.

Not sure that there is any point arguing with someone that thinks;

a) having rapists at BMT isn't indicative of a problem
b) getting rid of MTLs at tech school will get rid of the rapist TIs


What power do you think an MTI has?

Ha ha ha....this is funny. This guy claims to be going to be a TI for the second time yet he has never been to ALS, NCOA, or SNCOA. If he HAD, he would know about position power, coercive power, legitimate power etc...

Shrike
07-03-2012, 12:01 PM
Not sure that there is any point arguing with someone that thinks;

a) having rapists at BMT isn't indicative of a problem
b) getting rid of MTLs at tech school will get rid of the rapist TIs

Seconded. It's quite apparent that this guy is not here to engage in a conversation. He is here to defend the honor of MTIs at all cost. Just look at the way he's already lashed out at a few people. My guess is that he's too used to one-way feedback with sniveling 18-year old "kids" and not used to people pushing back.

satxcharger
07-03-2012, 12:48 PM
I did not say anything in reference to the MTIs that raped the trainees cause there is nothing to be said they deserve more than what they are getting and they derserved to be registered sex offenders. Secondly I think common sense will dictate that having a known rapist at BMT would be a problem but can you point one out or are all MTIs rapists? Are all MTI applicants rapists or do they just become one after they get there? Getting rid of MTLs can add to the manning of the MTI which in turn could allow for more female instructors to allow for the segragation of the gender that everyone seems to want. As far me not understanding position power, coercive power, legitimate power etc... I understand full well what you are saying my point is an MTI has no more power than a NCO but he/she has way more responsibilty. You are correct hen you sayim here to defend the MTI Corps that doesnt not mean im here to defend a rapist that is why I left them out they are not what MTIs represent and Im sorry that they misrepresented the Air Force and the MTI Corps in the manner that they did. Realize there are stil men and woman down there doing the job the way its mean to be done and they deserve respect and support.

JD2780
07-03-2012, 12:59 PM
Really? Your right we do eat our own. It helps get the weak instructors to either conform or leave. As far as talking shit about each other can you say that doesn’t happen in the Air Force period? Get real guy your living in a fantasy world. Narcing on each other really are you serious? Maybe if there was this Narcing that you claim we wouldnt be on this thread. Can you say that this doesn’t happen in the Operational Air Force as well? You sir are pathetic. You may have shadowed but you obviously didn’t have you eyes open. Just say you couldnt handle doing the job, and be on your way. I am married my wife and I were street pushing TI's at the same time. We have two kids and our marriage is stronger than ever. So your claim about your marriage is your own issue, and the fact that you can’t do the job for fear of your marriage should tell you a lot about the strength of said marriage.

HAHAHAA sorry in my former AFSC we settled issues with that individual. I had my eyes open. I was told many things by many TI's. One of which was to run for the hills. My marriage is great, and I would like to be around for it. THAT is the issue. You call me pathetic pathetic and yet your on here conducting a personal attack on me when I spoke of a large group. You, and I wont call you a sir because the AF as screwed that title up a bit, are the pathetic one. You have truly been indoctrinated to believe your own shit. Its comical how much you believe in this stuff. By eating your own I meant your shit talking, crying to mom and dad crap you turds pull.

THE OTHER INSTRUCTORS TOLD ME MOST OF THIS!!!! SO MAYBE YOUR PAST AND FUTURE PEERS ARE THE ONES YOU'RE CALLING PATHETIC!!

I'm sure you'll down there and tell your war stories since the only people that will listen and believe them are the damn kids that dont know any better, yet.

HAHAHAA, you're truly butt hurt.

DWWSWWD
07-03-2012, 01:23 PM
Satx, I believe most TIs are good. I also believe that most policemen and most Chiefs are good. These folks are so influential, that when one does stray, it leaves a huge black mark on that group which they represent. We get you. We all had TIs, we all know it is a hard job and most of us don't want to be one. As far as a TI having no more power than any other NCO, please do something for me. Go out into your workcenter, grab an Airman and tell him to scrub the bay floor with a toothbrush. Let me know how that works out for you.

Pullinteeth
07-03-2012, 06:00 PM
I did not say anything in reference to the MTIs that raped the trainees cause there is nothing to be said they deserve more than what they are getting and they derserved to be registered sex offenders. Secondly I think common sense will dictate that having a known rapist at BMT would be a problem but can you point one out or are all MTIs rapists? Are all MTI applicants rapists or do they just become one after they get there? Getting rid of MTLs can add to the manning of the MTI which in turn could allow for more female instructors to allow for the segragation of the gender that everyone seems to want. As far me not understanding position power, coercive power, legitimate power etc... I understand full well what you are saying my point is an MTI has no more power than a NCO but he/she has way more responsibilty. You are correct hen you sayim here to defend the MTI Corps that doesnt not mean im here to defend a rapist that is why I left them out they are not what MTIs represent and Im sorry that they misrepresented the Air Force and the MTI Corps in the manner that they did. Realize there are stil men and woman down there doing the job the way its mean to be done and they deserve respect and support.

You do realize what thread you are posting in right? I can point out what 7 rapist TIs... Everyone? Everyone wants segregated BMT? Did you even READ this thread? No more power than another NCO...so I can go to BMT and just start recycling trainees? I can recommend they are sent home? A TI has a LOT of power-both real and percieved. You are also aware that your previous comments don't just go away because you deny making them right? Perfect example;


I have been reading the responses on this forum for awhile now and it amazes me that there are so many people that will criticize the MTI corps, and say what needs to be done to fix the problem. You have no clue what really goes on there. Let’s not forget that you did not raise your hand to do the job and never had any intention to. I was an MTI from Jun 04 till Dec 09 and I’m proud to say that I will be returning to MTI duty Jan 13.

The problem with this situation is twofold, and while separating the females from the males may solve the problem. It will create and even greater problem if not several more and add greater stress on a career field that is already stressful enough. So many have called for this segregation so let look at its effects shall we.
Due to the low percentage of female MTIs if we do in fact separate the genders that would mean the current female instructors would have to shoulder the load until more female instructors are brought in. How will this happen with the current lack of female applicants? I can tell you now getting more female MTIs will not be a volunteer basis this will be voluntold. Woman Air Force wide that have the “5” EPRs, “great records”, and are able bodied will find themselves faced with going to BMT or getting out. Guess what folks they have tried the mandatory thing before and people dropped like flies. Speaking from experience there is nothing worse than an MTI that doesn’t want to be an MTI. He/She becomes a burden to the instructors around them and their flights are garbage due to the lack of effort. That usually means the instructor is pulled off the flight and another instructor is placed on the flight. Guess where they get that instructor? He/ she probably just got done with a flight, and was looking forward to some much deserved down time or maybe even leave. All that goes out the door cause the mission comes first; ladies and gentlemen separation is a no go . With the sudden influx of female instructors when the female flights are low what do those female instructors do? They can’t push male flights right cause now we have separation. Do they get down time? What kind of division does that create in the career field? Does the Air Force have enough woman to fill this role? What career fields do you think they will come from? Oh and just cause you see 82% manning doesn’t mean that’s the actual manning situation the real number is around 62% cause all MTIs don’t push flights plus these knuckle heads that are on trial they still count towards the manning doc. Plus you have to consider leave attrition rate etc…

I know someone will say "well the marine corps does it. They don’t have these manning issues". Have you ever asked how the Marine Corps is able to do it? I’ll tell you how once you reach a certain rank you have to decide your career path one of those paths is being a D.I. another is recruiter and there might be a few others. Of course we all know the needs of your service come first. So basically you are going to choose what they have a available or get out. Let’s not forget to mention the Marine Corps is a smaller service. That my friends is how they are able to fill their D.I. slots and separate the genders. Is there anyone raising their hands to go this route? Come on now Core Values right? I didn’t think so. Why cause very few people want to do this job. So think about the uproar the Lazy Air force will have when they are made to do it. We didn’t even want to do PT so why would we want to be MTIs, and give back to a service that has given you your lively hood that crazy talk isn’t it?

The best solution to fix these issue is this.

1) The Air force needs to stop trying to reinvent the wheel. Get rid of MTLs no other service has them they provide nothing to the Air Force if anything they hurt the Air Force as any First line supervisor knows. Oh and by the way the MTLs go to the same school house as MTIs and they supposedly learn the same thing (yeah right). Take the MTL manning and combine it with the MTIs. Now manning can go up and there is continuity from the beginning till they get to their first duty station yes that means MTIs at tech school. The trade off will be more disciplined Airman this is what the army does by the way. Another benefit will be that MTIs will learn how to be well rounded NCOs. I have to say I didn’t learn how to write a LOC or any other type of paper work until I came back to the Operational Air force. As an MTI in the tech school environment these skills will be learned and taken back to the operational Air Force upon return to the individuals career field.
2) With the manning raised more instructors per flight can happen. Let’s build our instructor teams the way the Marine corps builds theirs to include one female instructor per team. More eyes mean less time to get stupid.
3) Shipping female flight can only be shipped by female instructors even if it’s from a diff squadron , CQ and a section supervisor can ship the flights, or the flight instructors can ship the flight but a section supervisor must be there.
4) Stop letting instructor get their hats as soon as they get to the school house make them learn to respect the job they are going to do and respect those that came before them. This was a recent change and in my opinion has lowered the standard cause this new breed of MTIs think that cause they wear the hat they are MTIs when really they are students and should be treated as such. I wore my soft cap and pushed my first flight I learned to respect those that came before me even though I hated a few I still respected them. I think fundamentally respect for the job has been lost so things like what we are reading about has gone up. I was told the hat doesn’t make you, you make the hat. These guys didn’t learn that.

All these take away the opportunity to do something stupid, and it also relieves the stress of being an MTI. This in theory should drive up applicants which in turn should raise manning. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard " MTIs work long hours that’s why I can’t do that" or " I'm not mean like that" Being an MTI is not as bad as most think. Yes there are bad days but if anyone says they don’t have them in their current job let me know cause Ill cross train into that one. People we are the only service that identify ourselves by the jobs we do marine corps= marine army=soldier navy=sailor Air Force= AFSC its sad and needs to change fast.

Get to know some MTIs before you speak out about how bad we are or that we have a boys club and abuse our power. To have so much power and to have so much responsibility is a scary thing sometimes, and learning to balance it is a hard thing to do. Like I said get to know a MTI you will quickly find out that this behavior that these dirt bags have displayed is not the norm, and is not tolerated. For those that have read the articles one of the dirt bags even said that the other MTIs wouldn’t even talk to them they were blacklist so to speak.
Sorry for the long comment but I can’t sit back and watch an organization that has made me in to the man ,father, NCO, and Airman I am today be trampled upon.

That was a response to this thread and thus your purported solution to all these rapist TIs.

BRUWIN
07-03-2012, 06:51 PM
Realize there are stil men and woman down there doing the job the way its mean to be done and they deserve respect and support.

I realize this...and rather than attack people for posting what they percieve as the problem why not just listen instead of firing back with "you guys ain't got a clue." If I was the CC for a day the last people I would take suggestions from about this particular issue are the MTIs. I would look outside...even other services. Why not get a Marine's perspective? After all...we ain't hearing about them in the news with regards to the issue.

You guys should be made to drink the same saltpeter water the male trainees have to drink. You know if you guys didn't make us drink that you guys never would have had a chance with the female trainees to begin with...they would have been all ours and you guys know it.

Capt Alfredo
07-03-2012, 09:58 PM
Perhaps if each trainee invested in some high-tech recording equipment that could be secreted on his or her person, we would be able to catch the miscreants in the act and thwart the evil-doers once and for all...that and bulletproof underwear. Yeah, that's the ticket.

js7799
07-03-2012, 10:04 PM
Perhaps if each trainee invested in some high-tech recording equipment that could be secreted on his or her person, we would be able to catch the miscreants in the act and thwart the evil-doers once and for all...that and bulletproof underwear. Yeah, that's the ticket.

They have cell phones now, so why not?

ScarlettGTO
07-03-2012, 11:37 PM
Perhaps if each trainee invested in some high-tech recording equipment that could be secreted on his or her person, we would be able to catch the miscreants in the act and thwart the evil-doers once and for all...that and bulletproof underwear. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Chastity belts with 270 degree front and rear view recording devices with guarantees and overlapping field of vision. The lock on the front will be electrified, and if it does manage to get penetrated the vaginal walls will be surgically enhanced with razor wire and cued to pop out on the 2nd to 5th thrust thus catching the perp TI off guard.

Boom, problem fixed!

Absinthe Anecdote
07-03-2012, 11:49 PM
Chastity belts with 270 degree front and rear view recording devices with guarantees and overlapping field of vision. The lock on the front will be electrified, and if it does manage to get penetrated the vaginal walls will be surgically enhanced with razor wire and cued to pop out on the 2nd to 5th thrust thus catching the perp TI off guard.

Boom, problem fixed!

Better yet, have PickYourBattles drive his Kit Car (or whatever it is) around Lackland.

That should keep everyone on their toes.

Robert F. Dorr
07-04-2012, 12:01 AM
A photo on page 16 of the July 9 Air Force Times taken at Lackland shows about three dozen women marching in formation. The caption says they are marching "during graduation." It's an associated Press photo by John L. Mone.

Can anyone answer these questions:

1. Why a formation of women only? Isn't the Air Force integrated by gender? Under what circumstances would members of only one sex march in formation?

2. What are they graduating from? Most have two stripes. Some have one. Doesn't that make their rank too high for them to be graduates of basic training?

akruse
07-04-2012, 12:04 AM
A photo on page 16 of the July 9 Air Force Times taken at Lackland shows about three dozen women marching in formation. The caption says they are marching "during graduation." It's an associated Press photo by John L. Mone.

Can anyone answer these questions:

1. Why a formation of women only? Isn't the Air Force integrated by gender? Under what circumstances would members of only one sex march in formation?

2. What are they graduating from? Most have two stripes. Some have one. Doesn't that make their rank too high for them to be graduates of basic training?

Female flight

Very few Airmen come in now days slick sleeve.

Airborne
07-04-2012, 12:19 AM
@satxcharger

No offense, but that post is a bit holier than thou. When it comes down to it, must of us could give a crap about what goes at basic training because they soon revert back to the personality they were born with. This thread is just the flavor of the day. Im sure quite a few of us have had to deal with a MTI who has returned to the field thinking that we all need to be standing at attention and calling each other by rank and name and not drinking with one another after work because they have one more stripe than another.
How are you guys selling the position to the field to make it worth it? An increased clothing allowance? Ohhhhh. Without looking it up, is the incentive pay $150 or $225? Im not sure that is worth it when you have to work 15 hours per day and leave your family behind. Getting leave rejected. Having to yell and put on a fake persona that sometimes "sticks"? Having co workers with whom you all act like their your brothers in arms, but you are all trying to backstab each other and get a blue rope to more respect and not have to push so many flights? Basically, most people are either avoiding their career field or trying to increase their board score, because its more or less a golden ticket for SMSgt.
Enough of me being snarky. Im not sure what the solution is. Whether you think all female flights with female is not the answer, something similar is going to happen. No males will be allowed with a flight in the barracks on their own or something similar. Currently, I would do it for no less than $1000 per month with the current set up. Or their needs to be restrictions on the hours. Crew rest if you will. Im sure you will say that they have something similar, but Im sure it can be broken, unlike aircrew crew rest that takes a whole heck of a lot for it to be broken.

Smeghead
07-04-2012, 12:32 AM
Man, I really wish someone in another career field would hurry up and fuck up; take the spotlight off us. Anybody got a tech school picture planned?

Absinthe Anecdote
07-04-2012, 12:46 AM
I realize this...and rather than attack people for posting what they percieve as the problem why not just listen instead of firing back with "you guys ain't got a clue." If I was the CC for a day the last people I would take suggestions from about this particular issue are the MTIs. I would look outside...even other services. Why not get a Marine's perspective? After all...we ain't hearing about them in the news with regards to the issue.

You guys should be made to drink the same saltpeter water the male trainees have to drink. You know if you guys didn't make us drink that you guys never would have had a chance with the female trainees to begin with...they would have been all ours and you guys know it.

I remember a particular BS session during basic this one guy who believed the salt peter myth offered the following evidence: "I haven't had a hard on since I've been here!"

That's got to be in my top 10 of dumb things I've heard.

Capt Alfredo
07-04-2012, 01:02 AM
A photo on page 16 of the July 9 Air Force Times taken at Lackland shows about three dozen women marching in formation. The caption says they are marching "during graduation." It's an associated Press photo by John L. Mone.

Can anyone answer these questions:

1. Why a formation of women only? Isn't the Air Force integrated by gender? Under what circumstances would members of only one sex march in formation?

2. What are they graduating from? Most have two stripes. Some have one. Doesn't that make their rank too high for them to be graduates of basic training?

The flights are separated by sex, but not the training squadrons. Hence the term "sister flight" when I went through.

People can enter the Air Force at one of three ranks: Airman Basic, Airman, or Airman First Class. This depends on two things: how much college the person has completed (30 credits will get you one stripe, 60 will get you two) or the term for which a person has enlisted. Hence the term "six year sucker" which refers to a person who signs up for the extra two years to get instant promotion to E-3, as well as a small bonus that varies from year to year. I think I got a whopping $4K before taxes, so yes, I was a sucker. Came out to $3200 after taxes and I blew it on a stereo and an '83 Mustang GT.

F4CrewChick
07-04-2012, 01:14 AM
The flights are separated by sex, but not the training squadrons. Hence the term "sister flight" when I went through.

People can enter the Air Force at one of three ranks: Airman Basic, Airman, or Airman First Class. This depends on two things: how much college the person has completed (30 credits will get you one stripe, 60 will get you two) or the term for which a person has enlisted. Hence the term "six year sucker" which refers to a person who signs up for the extra two years to get instant promotion to E-3, as well as a small bonus that varies from year to year. I think I got a whopping $4K before taxes, so yes, I was a sucker. Came out to $3200 after taxes and I blew it on a stereo and an '83 Mustang GT.Excellent answer Captain A. You made me wish I had been a "six-year sucker."

JD2780
07-04-2012, 01:16 AM
The flights are separated by sex, but not the training squadrons. Hence the term "sister flight" when I went through.

People can enter the Air Force at one of three ranks: Airman Basic, Airman, or Airman First Class. This depends on two things: how much college the person has completed (30 credits will get you one stripe, 60 will get you two) or the term for which a person has enlisted. Hence the term "six year sucker" which refers to a person who signs up for the extra two years to get instant promotion to E-3, as well as a small bonus that varies from year to year. I think I got a whopping $4K before taxes, so yes, I was a sucker. Came out to $3200 after taxes and I blew it on a stereo and an '83 Mustang GT.

In 02 TACPs were getting a $2K bonus for 6 yrs and nothing for 4 yrs. I was like OOH MAN TWO STRIPES AND 2,000 BUCKS!!!! Damn recruiter saw me coming a mile away. It did help out in the fact that I tested for staff one more time than the guys that went with the four, but not much.

KellyinAvon
07-04-2012, 01:18 AM
Man, I really wish someone in another career field would hurry up and fuck up; take the spotlight off us. Anybody got a tech school picture planned?

Maybe some Aerial Porters will make a picture that looks like a lynching and,,, oh yeah, been done.
Maybe some idiots will beat a goat to death with a bat? Been done!
Fight Club? We had that.
How about a lawyer who was disbarred by not one, but 2 states (and 1 was Louisiana)?? Yeah, that happened.
Columbian hookers? That's been done.
What if Mortuary Affairs hacked the arm off,,,,,, yipper!
Gang initiations by active duty,,, they're in jail
Peeing on corpses?? Marines beat us to it.
Marine snipers with a Waffen SS flag? Yeap!

Someone will do something dumb complete with a viral video soon, just hang in there another 20 minutes or so Smeghead.

JD2780
07-04-2012, 01:21 AM
SMEGHEAD, I did end up shadowing, and I did what you told me to and told the recruiter I wasnt doing it for numerous reasons.

Smeghead
07-04-2012, 01:38 AM
SMEGHEAD, I did end up shadowing, and I did what you told me to and told the recruiter I wasnt doing it for numerous reasons.

I tried to be honest with you up front. I love the job, there's a lot of annoying stuff about it, but in its essence training (as in educating/indoctrinating, not "training") future Airmen is a cool job. Once you get past the other stuff it's rewarding.

I'm just ready for this to be over. Not all of us are "Napoleonistic" douchbags, cheers JD. Not all of us are here to get our rocks off from pushing kids around. We're not all here to make up stories that we were Spec Ops and have trainees worship us. Neither is everyone here looking to hook up with impressionable 18 year olds. You'll find the majority want to train Airmen, most are dissatisfied with "corporate" Air Force and want to feel like we're in the military again. Show me somewhere where there are no bad apples.

JD2780
07-04-2012, 01:42 AM
I tried to be honest with you up front. I love the job, there's a lot of annoying stuff about it, but in its essence training (as in educating/indoctrinating, not "training") future Airmen is a cool job. Once you get past the other stuff it's rewarding.

I'm just ready for this to be over. Not all of us are "Napoleonistic" douchbags, cheers JD. Not all of us are here to get our rocks off from pushing kids around. We're not all here to make up stories that we were Spec Ops and have trainees worship us. Neither is everyone here looking to hook up with impressionable 18 year olds. You'll find the majority want to train Airmen, most are dissatisfied with "corporate" Air Force and want to feel like we're in the military again. Show me somewhere where there are no bad apples.

It was my observation from shadowing in my experience as a trainee that drove me to that conclusion. Like you said though, not all are like that. It was a generalization. I'm sure some guys actually have their heart in it, and feel like they're impacting the AF in a major way. I sat in an all call at the sq my last day there and the things I heard from the sup were horrible, some of the items are what we are currently discussing.

As for taking the spot light off of you guys. Wait ten minutes somebody will screw up.

BRUWIN
07-04-2012, 01:48 AM
Man, I really wish someone in another career field would hurry up and fuck up; take the spotlight off us. Anybody got a tech school picture planned?

Nope...you guys are pretty much all we got until the summmer PCS season is over and everybody settles in for another magical year of fuckups.

golfer55
07-04-2012, 03:04 AM
Not sure that there is any point arguing with someone that thinks;

a) having rapists at BMT isn't indicative of a problem
b) getting rid of MTLs at tech school will get rid of the rapist TIs



Ha ha ha....this is funny. This guy claims to be going to be a TI for the second time yet he has never been to ALS, NCOA, or SNCOA. If he HAD, he would know about position power, coercive power, legitimate power etc...


Going down for a second stint as as TI, doesnt like to deploy I guess. your right about those types of powers. Those kids are very vulurnable and impressionable. They need to use that power wisely, unfortunately 31 have not

Smeghead
07-04-2012, 03:17 AM
They need to use that power wisely, unfortunately 31 have not

Please, please, please learn to read. 31 trainees making allegations, not 31 MTIs charged.

F4CrewChick
07-04-2012, 03:21 AM
I tried to be honest with you up front. I love the job, there's a lot of annoying stuff about it, but in its essence training (as in educating/indoctrinating, not "training") future Airmen is a cool job. Once you get past the other stuff it's rewarding.

I'm just ready for this to be over. Not all of us are "Napoleonistic" douchbags, cheers JD. Not all of us are here to get our rocks off from pushing kids around. We're not all here to make up stories that we were Spec Ops and have trainees worship us. Neither is everyone here looking to hook up with impressionable 18 year olds. You'll find the majority want to train Airmen, most are dissatisfied with "corporate" Air Force and want to feel like we're in the military again. Show me somewhere where there are no bad apples.I totally believe what you're saying Smeg. I do believe there are excellent TIs who want to train excellent Airmen. I think you're one of them.

BRUWIN
07-04-2012, 03:36 AM
Got a three hour tour of Basic Training a few years back when I was TDY to Randolph helping rewrite the E-8 test. I gotta be honest, all the bad eggs must have arrived after that because every TI I met and talked to was top notch. Walking through those dorms again was like a trip back through time. The only thing I noticed different was they didn't fold stuff, they rolled it all up very neatly and tucked it in their locker drawer. Everything else was the same...except those stupid blue rifles. However, I was shooting an M-16 with a .22 cal adapter when I was going through basic so that was just as bad. That was one of the worst money saving ideas ever.

ScarlettGTO
07-04-2012, 04:25 AM
Man, I really wish someone in another career field would hurry up and fuck up; take the spotlight off us. Anybody got a tech school picture planned?

You guys took the spotlight off the Secret Service as well as the EOD/K-9 teams that support them. We got one lousy little email from our Program Manager that basically said "Behave or else".

Tak
07-04-2012, 04:44 AM
Never trust a YAB!

KellyinAvon
07-04-2012, 09:46 AM
Got a three hour tour of Basic Training a few years back when I was TDY to Randolph helping rewrite the E-8 test. I gotta be honest, all the bad eggs must have arrived after that because every TI I met and talked to was top notch. Walking through those dorms again was like a trip back through time. The only thing I noticed different was they didn't fold stuff, they rolled it all up very neatly and tucked it in their locker drawer. Everything else was the same...except those stupid blue rifles. However, I was shooting an M-16 with a .22 cal adapter when I was going through basic so that was just as bad. That was one of the worst money saving ideas ever.

Yeah, neither one will shoot. Hopefully the individual who came up with the .22 LR adapter idea was never listened to again. Epic failure.

Robert F. Dorr
07-04-2012, 10:42 AM
Female flight

Very few Airmen come in now days slick sleeve.


I thought we got rid of all-female flights in the 1970s...?

TWO stripes upon graduation from basic?

KellyinAvon
07-04-2012, 11:04 AM
You guys took the spotlight off the Secret Service as well as the EOD/K-9 teams that support them. We got one lousy little email from our Program Manager that basically said "Behave or else".

Or else what?:evil

Smeghead
07-04-2012, 05:45 PM
I thought we got rid of all-female flights in the 1970s...?

TWO stripes upon graduation from basic?

How can you be a former "A"irman and write for an Air Force oriented publication, yet know so little about very basic things? The acronyms were bad enough. However, as an alleged journalist you surely have access to research resources right? I'll throw you a couple for free, airforce.com and Google can both answer all your questions about this mysterious Air Force thing.

Robert F. Dorr
07-04-2012, 06:02 PM
How can you be a former "A"irman and write for an Air Force oriented publication, yet know so little about very basic things? The acronyms were bad enough. However, as an alleged journalist you surely have access to research resources right? I'll throw you a couple for free, airforce.com and Google can both answer all your questions about this mysterious Air Force thing.

Tried both sources, Smeghead. Tried asking the Air Force. Tried asking the Associated Press (the source of the photo). Tried asking Lackland.

The issue with abbreviations (which include acronyms), again, is divining the writer's intent. Gotta give you credit, at least, for clarity -- something often lacking here.

Despite the uncomfortable situation I'm in on these forums, most people here have either given me a warm welcome or said nothing. Please extend to me the courtesy of signing up for the latter group, if there is any space left. It maybe crowded in that room. Don't know.

Don't know how you learn the things you know. My approach is to ask. My hope remains that someone here will have the kindness to respond.

You've obviously observed me and my work long enough to know that the word journalist doesn't apply. If you'd like to discuss it further, call me on the phone. My contact information is all over the Internet.

Hope you get some satisfaction out of spoiling a day of very hard work.

Z1911
07-04-2012, 09:50 PM
How can you be a former "A"irman and write for an Air Force oriented publication, yet know so little about very basic things? The acronyms were bad enough. However, as an alleged journalist you surely have access to research resources right? I'll throw you a couple for free, airforce.com and Google can both answer all your questions about this mysterious Air Force thing.

Smeg:
RFD is not so much an Air Force journalist as he is an Aviation journalist, with a leaning toward the military side of aviation. Give him some credit; at least he's asking questions instead of assuming stuff.

As much as I appreciate your point of view, I'd still cut him some slack. Let's face it: Crap in today's USAFCo changes so quickly, and is typically so functionally stove-piped, it's hard to keep track of it, regardless of whether or not one is currently, actively involved, or if one's active status was 50+ years ago.

Robert F. Dorr
07-04-2012, 10:18 PM
Thank you, Z1911. I needed that boost.

Since my first publication in 1955, my topic has been the Air Force first, aviation second, and a lot of other things after that including the women's confessions magazines and the supermarket tabloids, both of which pay more than the newspaper. My work makes me an author, not a journalist. It can be difficult at times. Spent most of today trying to understand turbosupercharger boost issues and why the P-38 Lightning was employed differently in the ETO (an abbreviation!) than in the Pacific. Don't know the answers to the two questions about the female airmen at Lackland and won't know until someone tells me. Maybe the Air Force will do that tomorrow.

Ever try to get an answer out of the Air Force?

Me: "What kind of planes do you have at your base?"

Them: "Let me staff that and get back to you. What's your deadline?"

Me: "What job does Gen. Schwartz hold?"

Them: "Let me staff that and get back to you. What's your deadline?"

Me: "What country was the Vietnam war fought in?"

Them: "Let me staff that and get back to you. What's your deadline?"

See what I'm saying? I'm sure some of the people to whom I spoke know the answers. But getting them is another matter.

Again, thank you.

The ETO is the European Theater of Operations, but you knew that.

Tak
07-04-2012, 10:22 PM
Thank you, Z1911. I needed that boost.

Since my first publication in 1955, my topic has been the Air Force first, aviation second, and a lot of other things after that including the women's confessions magazines and the supermarket tabloids, both of which pay more than the newspaper. My work makes me an author, not a journalist. It can be difficult at times. Spent most of today trying to understand turbosupercharger boost issues and why the P-38 Lightning was employed differently in the ETO (an abbreviation!) than in the Pacific. Don't know the answers to the two questions about the female airmen at Lackland and won't know until someone tells me. Maybe the Air Force will do that tomorrow.

Ever try to get an answer out of the Air Force?

Me: "What kind of planes do you have at your base?"

Them: "Let me staff that and get back to you. What's your deadline?"

Me: "What job does Gen. Schwartz hold?"

Them: "Let me staff that and get back to you. What's your deadline?"

Me: "What country was the Vietnam war fought in?"

Them: "Let me staff that and get back to you. What's your deadline?"

See what I'm saying? I'm sure some of the people to whom I spoke know the answers. But getting them is another matter.

Again, thank you.

The ETO is the European Theater of Operations, but you knew that.

Bob, you enjoying your life? Sounds like time to start your bucket list.

Robert F. Dorr
07-04-2012, 10:31 PM
Bob, you enjoying your life? Sounds like time to start your bucket list.

That's a really good question. That's a really, really good question.

The short answer is, mostly.

A really good answer can't appear in this space for various reasons. At a time when my surviving contemporaries are wallowing in idleness, my goal is to publish a million words a year (the equivalent of ten full-sized books or 2,000 newspaper columns) and I've exceeded it every year for more than two decades. Some of the best and worst things in my life don't appear in writing anywhere although you can find hints on the Web. Can't imagine any reason for a bucket list except, maybe, for the part about Gisele Bundchen.

What would be your answer?

Tak
07-04-2012, 10:40 PM
That's a really good question. That's a really, really good question.

The short answer is, mostly.

A really good answer can't appear in this space for various reasons. At a time when my surviving contemporaries are wallowing in idleness, my goal is to publish a million words a year (the equivalent of ten full-sized books or 2,000 newspaper columns) and I've exceeded it every year for more than two decades. Some of the best and worst things in my life don't appear in writing anywhere although you can find hints on the Web. Can't imagine any reason for a bucket list except, maybe, for the part about Gisele Bundchen.

What would be your answer?

I say get busy living or get busy dying. Your idea of living is writing 1,000,000
Words...doesn't sound enjoyable to me, I picture nicklaus in the shining going
Ape shyte. You have no other goal in life? Cruises, fishing off cape xxx,
Climbing mt xxx, going to dinner with a call girl, learn to surf in Hawaii, etc.
If you were to die in 6 months, what would you do?

Robert F. Dorr
07-04-2012, 10:49 PM
I say get busy living or get busy dying. Your idea of living is writing 1,000,000
Words...doesn't sound enjoyable to me, I picture nicklaus in the shining going
Ape shyte. You have no other goal in life? Cruises, fishing off cape xxx,
Climbing mt xxx, going to dinner with a call girl, learn to surf in Hawaii, etc.
If you were to die in 6 months, what would you do?

It's the ones who are idle who are dying.

You may be confusing a golfer named Nicklaus with an actor named Nicholson. Read the book. Didn't see the movie.

Except for fishing (yuck), have already done everything you named except we didn't have dinner beforehand.

Unless they put a back seat in the F-22 or Gisele rings me on the phone, can't think of much to do differently.

In six months? Would do exactly the same as now. Exactly in every detail. Trying to get their stories told. Why would anyone want to take time off from work? What else is there?

Tak
07-04-2012, 10:58 PM
It's the ones who are idle who are dying.

You may be confusing a golfer named Nicklaus with an actor named Nicholson. Read the book. Didn't see the movie.

Except for fishing (yuck), have already done everything you named except we didn't have dinner beforehand.

Unless they put a back seat in the F-22 or Gisele rings me on the phone, can't think of much to do differently.

In six months? Would do exactly the same as now. Exactly in every detail. Trying to get their stories told. Why would anyone want to take time off from work? What else is there?

Sounds like your ready to die bob...probably die writing "the night was sultry"
Hopefully your enjoying time with kids, kids kids and kids kids kids...
Uncle bob, grandfather bob..."don't bother him kids, he's writing 1,000,000
Words every year for no reason known to man"
Time to hit the bottle, watch sun sets and consider one last hooker
For all times sake. I have a new goal: not to write any words any year.

Robert F. Dorr
07-04-2012, 11:03 PM
Sounds like your ready to die bob...probably die writing "the night was sultry"
Hopefully your enjoying time with kids, kids kids and kids kids kids...
Uncle bob, grandfather bob..."don't bother him kids, he's writing 1,000,000
Words every year for no reason known to man"
Time to hit the bottle, watch sun sets and consider one last hooker
For all times sake. I have a new goal: not to write any words any year.

Yeah, well, at least I made an attempt to answer the questions put to me, except for the caveat that there's some stuff I'm not going to put into writing. No one has attempted to answer my questions -- the two questions about the female airmen, and mine about how YOU would answer what you asked ME.

What makes you think it's time for the last hooker? The idea about the bottle may have merit. Except for how you feel in the morning.

Tak
07-04-2012, 11:12 PM
Yeah, well, at least I made an attempt to answer the questions put to me, except for the caveat that there's some stuff I'm not going to put into writing. No one has attempted to answer my questions -- the two questions about the female airmen, and mine about how YOU would answer what you asked ME.

What makes you think it's time for the last hooker? The idea about the bottle may have merit. Except for how you feel in the morning.

My answer...I am enjoying life...watching three boys grow up, being there for them.
I gave up the bottle in 02, but would love a big pina colada sitting on beach in australia.
If i did hookers, it would be a pair of them, after my wife died or we split. I need to do more fishing
And I will in less than three weeks. My goal in life, and I pray it everynight, is for my children to have
Long fulfilled lives. I need to go on more cruises and snorkle at exotic locations. Topless beaches
Are a plus. Good food and good company until my last days. Happy 4th Mr Dorr.

JD2780
07-04-2012, 11:16 PM
Here is a crazy idea. What if RFD's passion IS putting 1,000,000,000 words on paper? Maybe that is what he loves to do. Some folks enjoy working on cars until their fingers no longer work, some folks love running until they can no longer bend their knees. RFD enjoys writing, whether its editorials, or books. Who are we to judge what he enjoys doing? Atleast he can keep doing his hobby. When I'm his age, I'll be lucky to, well by lucky to still know who I am or what I'm doing.

Robert F. Dorr
07-04-2012, 11:24 PM
My goal in life...is for my children to have long fulfilled lives.

Who doesn't have that goal?

Many thanks to JD2780 for some upbeat comments. The number is a million, not a billion, although a lot of people here in the Washington, D.C. region might not recognize the difference.

I'm still wondering two things:

1. How'd you get the idea that this is a hobby?

2. What about the female airmen at Lackland? The theme of this thread?

The idea that anyone might enjoy fishing -- more than, say, a root canal -- demonstrates that we're all different.

Tak
07-04-2012, 11:26 PM
Here is a crazy idea. What if RFD's passion IS putting 1,000,000,000 words on paper? Maybe that is what he loves to do. Some folks enjoy working on cars until their fingers no longer work, some folks love running until they can no longer bend their knees. RFD enjoys writing, whether its editorials, or books. Who are we to judge what he enjoys doing? Atleast he can keep doing his hobby. When I'm his age, I'll be lucky to, well by lucky to still know who I am or what I'm doing.

Here's an idea.. shut up

Tak
07-04-2012, 11:29 PM
Who doesn't have that goal?

Many thanks to JD2780 for some upbeat comments. The number is a million, not a billion, although a lot of people here in the Washington, D.C. region might not recognize the difference.

I'm still wondering two things:

1. How'd you get the idea that this is a hobby?

2. What about the female airmen at Lackland? The theme of this thread?

The idea that anyone might enjoy fishing -- more than, say, a root canal -- demonstrates that we're all different.

Dang, your like a blood hound on a scent when you want answers. You certainly have
A quest for knowledge and drive to put it in written form.

Capt Alfredo
07-05-2012, 12:26 AM
I'm confused - didn't we answer your two questions already? I know *I* did.

Robert F. Dorr
07-05-2012, 10:24 AM
I'm confused - didn't we answer your two questions already? I know *I* did.

Capt Alfredo, you did indeed answer my two questions about the female airmen photo. I was so busy jinking to avoid the flak that I didn't even have enough SA (an abbreviation!) to see you back there on my six. Somehow, some way, I went right past your post without seeing it. You answered thoroughly and thoughtfully, and I learned a lot from your answer. This will probably result in your being submerged in a hail of brickbats from one or two AHs (another abbreviation!) who would rather be difficult than helpful.

I learned a lot and most of what I learned surprised me. I didn't pick up on any of this when the Air Force gave me a very thorough tour of basic military training at Lackland about three years ago. I would say "thank you" but that you get you in deeper trouble with YKW (another abbreviation).

Robert F. Dorr
07-05-2012, 12:00 PM
Here is a crazy idea. What if RFD's passion IS putting 1,000,000,000 words on paper? Maybe that is what he loves to do. Some folks enjoy working on cars until their fingers no longer work, some folks love running until they can no longer bend their knees. RFD enjoys writing, whether its editorials, or books. Who are we to judge what he enjoys doing? Atleast he can keep doing his hobby. When I'm his age, I'll be lucky to, well by lucky to still know who I am or what I'm doing.

I'm going to put a response to this on the thread with my name on it.

briefer
07-05-2012, 12:10 PM
Seeing as how the former VP is such a VIP, shouldn't we keep the VP's PC on the QC, because if it leaks out to the VC, the VP will go MIA and we'll all be put out on KP.

JD2780
07-05-2012, 12:43 PM
Here's an idea.. shut up

I know its scary. A counter point!!! Its ok pretty soon I know you're scared of life outside the AF. So here is another idea. BLOW ME.

TJMAC77SP
07-05-2012, 01:30 PM
Tried both sources, Smeghead. Tried asking the Air Force. Tried asking the Associated Press (the source of the photo). Tried asking Lackland.

The issue with abbreviations (which include acronyms), again, is divining the writer's intent. Gotta give you credit, at least, for clarity -- something often lacking here.

Despite the uncomfortable situation I'm in on these forums, most people here have either given me a warm welcome or said nothing. Please extend to me the courtesy of signing up for the latter group, if there is any space left. It maybe crowded in that room. Don't know.

Don't know how you learn the things you know. My approach is to ask. My hope remains that someone here will have the kindness to respond.

You've obviously observed me and my work long enough to know that the word journalist doesn't apply. If you'd like to discuss it further, call me on the phone. My contact information is all over the Internet.

Hope you get some satisfaction out of spoiling a day of very hard work.



Bob, you can't seriously expect everyone to sign up to either compliment you incessantly or shut up. There is the third choice of pointing out fallacies and other things some find objectionable. THAT is what a forum is all about. Not merely being an ego boost or source of your AFT columns.

I don't really believe your primary motive in asking about acronyms in widespread usage is to 'divine the writer's intent' but I will admit to being completely baffled as to what it truly is. People are merely asking you to invest a little in the discussion and use Google once in awhile (if indeed you truly do not understand a particular acronym)

I realize you consider yourself a writer and only a writer (at least that is my assumption) but the nearly universally applied title to someone who has a regular column in a news publication is journalist. I realize that the more accurate term may be columnist but splitting semantical hairs really isn’t doing much good. I am pretty sure you know what the poster meant.

Shrike
07-05-2012, 02:51 PM
It's the ones who are idle who are dying.

You may be confusing a golfer named Nicklaus with an actor named Nicholson. Read the book. Didn't see the movie.

Except for fishing (yuck), have already done everything you named except we didn't have dinner beforehand.

Unless they put a back seat in the F-22 or Gisele rings me on the phone, can't think of much to do differently.

In six months? Would do exactly the same as now. Exactly in every detail. Trying to get their stories told. Why would anyone want to take time off from work? What else is there?


Bob, you're in the enviable position of getting paid to do what you love. Not many are so lucky. You ask why anyone would want to take time off from work? Because my work is boring and unsatisfying, I dislike who I work for both professionally and personally, and I'd rather make $5 an hour selling bait to fishermen than continue where I am. So in a few months I will stop. What else is there? An entire world to see and experience. And I can do that without having to submit a full eSSS, or answer the 100000th "hot tasker" that is hot solely because some middle manager dropped the ball or some higher-up thinks he needs the answer to every question right now (and he could probably Google the correct answer in about 20 seconds).

Some people live to work.
Others work to live.

I for one work to live. And in a few months I will not have to do that anymore. I can simply live to live if I choose to.