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desert beast
06-18-2012, 04:42 PM
:help

Ok, I am back but now I need help big time. I will give you all the facts, not just my side of the coin in order to allow constructive feedback and advice.

NCO, placed on weight control program, 3% over at the time of entry. Understand that the NCO is responsible to maintain standards. On program from March.
Several other NCO's placed on the program as well.

From March to June, Soldier making sat progress, 3-8lbs, BF% coming down as well. Begining of June, NCO taped during normal, monthly AWCP, down to 1% below max, flag removed, seems GTG. NCO still has mindset to continue to lose, was a scare, dont want that to happen again. As well as this NCO, the other NCO's taped as well and come off the program. Great day in the Army.

SRNCO that conducted the tape that removed flags, go on leave. One week later the SGM/CSM decides to conduct a 100%, NCO weigh in. Well, NCO busts tape again, tape tight and in a week lost 1.5" from neck. A few other NCO's that had just come off, also bust tape, seems the same complaint is shared by all.

Now NCO(s) facing relief for cause NCOER, yes, NCO in position of responsibility/leadership. Not sure what to expect with this type of NCOER, past NCOERs have been great, 1/1. DA Pam has info but not sure what is going on. Seems like there was a "witch hunt" due to the number of NCO's who were just removed then bam, a week goes by.


Any advice??

Thanks,

efmbman
06-18-2012, 05:45 PM
Not sure about the witch hunt, but I know I have encountered leaders that simply cannot read the Pam and consistently pull the tape too damn tight. That really irks me, because there is no need for that. Pulling the tape so tight that it compresses the skin is simply shows that these leaders are not taking care of soldiers. All I can suggest is using the evidence: losing 1.5" from the neck is almost impossible to do in one week. At a minimum, it demonstrates a training opportunity for the entire unit. Someone, either the NCO on leave or the leadership, is taping incorrectly. No one should have their career ruined because of applying a standard incorrectly.

desert beast
06-18-2012, 05:50 PM
Thanks for the insight. Still going to try to figure this whole thing out.

NC LEO
06-18-2012, 06:16 PM
Thanks for the insight. Still going to try to figure this whole thing out.

Take from a retired S-1 guy - you dont get relieved for cause for not being in compliance with AR 600-9. RFC NCOER's are conduct and "performance" ; ie; job performance. Your CSM can threaten, yell, scream, wave a blanks NCOER in your face all he wants - in the end, it'll never make it out of the PSB and USAREC will kick it back as well.....

106PADDOCK
06-18-2012, 07:29 PM
What's your CO's take on this? The Weight Control is a UNIT level activity under the CO supervision. Far too many CSM think THEY are some sort of "field grade NCO"! The CSM isn't in you CoC he is an ADVISOR to the BN/BDE/Div CDR. The writing of ANY NCOER is in the hands of you RATER not the CSM. If the CSM has it in his head to conduct these free lance weigh in/tape test a nice letter to the Higher-Higher HQ IG and you Congressmen will bring him back to the reality of his role . Just my $.02 from a guy who was sick of "Imperial SGM"!

efmbman
06-18-2012, 07:39 PM
Take from a retired S-1 guy - you dont get relieved for cause for not being in compliance with AR 600-9. RFC NCOER's are conduct and "performance" ; ie; job performance. Your CSM can threaten, yell, scream, wave a blanks NCOER in your face all he wants - in the end, it'll never make it out of the PSB and USAREC will kick it back as well.....

USAREC, eh? I do not notice a mention of USAREC. But it's funny that you mention USAREC - the example I was citing above was an experience I had in USAREC. Would the OP happen to be part of the 1st Medical Recruiting Batallion by chance?

desert beast
06-18-2012, 08:13 PM
@NCLEO, with regard to the RFC, prior to action, are the NCO's able to state their case? DA Pam 623-3 only talks about appeals.

The whole situation seems fishy to me and the more I talk to fellow NCO's and those who were off then right back on, due to this event, they concur as well. Same thing keeps coming up, witch hunt.

CON50582
06-22-2012, 05:26 PM
:help

Ok, I am back but now I need help big time. I will give you all the facts, not just my side of the coin in order to allow constructive feedback and advice.

NCO, placed on weight control program, 3% over at the time of entry. Understand that the NCO is responsible to maintain standards. On program from March.
Several other NCO's placed on the program as well.

From March to June, Soldier making sat progress, 3-8lbs, BF% coming down as well. Begining of June, NCO taped during normal, monthly AWCP, down to 1% below max, flag removed, seems GTG. NCO still has mindset to continue to lose, was a scare, dont want that to happen again. As well as this NCO, the other NCO's taped as well and come off the program. Great day in the Army.

SRNCO that conducted the tape that removed flags, go on leave. One week later the SGM/CSM decides to conduct a 100%, NCO weigh in. Well, NCO busts tape again, tape tight and in a week lost 1.5" from neck. A few other NCO's that had just come off, also bust tape, seems the same complaint is shared by all.

Now NCO(s) facing relief for cause NCOER, yes, NCO in position of responsibility/leadership. Not sure what to expect with this type of NCOER, past NCOERs have been great, 1/1. DA Pam has info but not sure what is going on. Seems like there was a "witch hunt" due to the number of NCO's who were just removed then bam, a week goes by.


Any advice??

Thanks,



Have not ever seen a relief for cause NCOER for this, but if they were enrolled in the AWCP and then were removed and then busted tape again within a year they should be separated from the service following the AR. You should keep a guy in the program until he is at least 2% under or for the whole six months to avoid this.

Creaminess
06-26-2012, 01:25 PM
USAREC, eh? I do not notice a mention of USAREC. But it's funny that you mention USAREC - the example I was citing above was an experience I had in USAREC. Would the OP happen to be part of the 1st Medical Recruiting Batallion by chance?

Believe the retired S-1 person meant EREC, the Enlisted Records and Evaluations Center. They used to process NCOERs; it's now all done by HRC (he may have been retired a while before EREC went away; no biggie...basically the same entity with a different name now).

He is correct though that AR 600-9 "violations" do not warrant RFC NCOERs. In very few instances will an NCO actually be "relieved" of duties because of being considered overweight.

Robin McBride
07-04-2012, 04:54 AM
Army command policy is pretty cut and dry:go on it once, meet the standards and come out a success. Get fat again soon after and you're done. Simple. Question is, how well is that enforced? I've seen many SR NCOs for whom, not only just looking at them, I knew there was no way they would pass a tape test, but who had been that way for quite awhile. And Ive seen jr NCOs who fail a tape test for the first time in their careers and are immediately barred and flagged. I believe it's a great and necessary standard; let's enforce it equitably for one and all!

Rizzo77
07-04-2012, 05:19 AM
Lose the weight, or get out. WTF? In 24 years, I NEVER went over the "weight limit". I have compressed disks in my back, knees nearly shot from 78 jumps, and nerve damage in my leg. I can meet weight now, by the way. And the tape? C'mon man, really? If you have to worry about the tape, you're probably on the way out, anyway.

The sergeant major isn't the bad guy; get within the regs. Easy day, right?

ThomasPaine
07-18-2013, 02:56 AM
A couple of pointers for you.
1. The CSM should be involved because the AWCP is the commander's program and he is part of the command team. An AWCP NCO placed on an additional duties appointment letter by a company commander is fine, but that battalion or squadron will have the primary AWCP NCO who supervises and conducts inspections of the units managers. Yes it is the Co CDRs program, at his level, but like all things there is an echelon of command.

2. A soldier who makes satisfactory progress needs to be closely supervised throughout the process because several inconsistencies may occur at the soldier and leader level. First the primary location that fat is initially lost is in the neck, especially when soldiers fast before a test. The fat in waist and abdomen is stored and is very difficult to lose. So if the soldiers fasts and loses a .5" or an inch that's great unless he never really changed his eating habits and gets caught in a surprise tape. Next if the NCO who conducts the tape is not properly trained and validated he/she could make some very bad career altering mistakes. A minor difference of a .5" in the neck or abdomen either way could be +/- 1%.

3. This NCO could have larger issues to worry about long term other than a RFC. Read the AR on repeat offenders, especially when it occurs within a certain time gait. If you haven't done so already, you will have to initiate a chapter on this NCO. Regardless if you would recommend one or not, you are now required to start the packet IF this NCO fails to get of the program within 6 months of his second infraction.

4. As far as a RFC, this may be a little over zealous probably would not float in most units. Sounds like the CSM is confused about the AWCP in general. It exists as a rehabilitative tool for the commander not as something to ID and eliminate soldiers who may have physiological issues that require assistance. I understand this NCO is a leader, but he must be given the chance to recover.

5. This brings me to my final point, I always kept soldiers on the program an extra month or two if they were at their threshold or just below. This was my way of helping the soldiers avoid grievous errors that may put them back on the program and make them subject to a chapter. Again that error could have been mathematical or poor dietary standards, either way its part of being a concerned leader and knowing your soldiers.

MitchellJD1969
08-22-2013, 09:21 PM
Lose the weight, or get out. WTF? In 24 years, I NEVER went over the "weight limit". I have compressed disks in my back, knees nearly shot from 78 jumps, and nerve damage in my leg. I can meet weight now, by the way. And the tape? C'mon man, really? If you have to worry about the tape, you're probably on the way out, anyway.

The sergeant major isn't the bad guy; get within the regs. Easy day, right?

Whats funny is that I have seen guys under their weight limit, but would fail a tape. On the other end of the spectrum, I have seen guys over weight but with very low body fat percentages.

You can have 3 different people taping and come up with 6 different measurements.

Dis_Grunt_Led
08-23-2013, 04:00 AM
What's your CO's take on this? The Weight Control is a UNIT level activity under the CO supervision. Far too many CSM think THEY are some sort of "field grade NCO"! The CSM isn't in you CoC he is an ADVISOR to the BN/BDE/Div CDR. The writing of ANY NCOER is in the hands of you RATER not the CSM. If the CSM has it in his head to conduct these free lance weigh in/tape test a nice letter to the Higher-Higher HQ IG and you Congressmen will bring him back to the reality of his role . Just my $.02 from a guy who was sick of "Imperial SGM"!

Awesome! Couldn't agree more - "Field Grade NCO" "Imperial SGM" So many of those guys just collecting a paycheck and being a pain in everyone's a**.