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Try
05-14-2012, 04:50 PM
Most people promoted to SMSgt/CMSgt are not strated. With that said, are strats just “one” good bullet or do you think they truly make a “significant” difference to the promotion board? For those who have been strated…did it significantly change your scores the following board…?

Calmo70
05-14-2012, 05:12 PM
OK, I'll bite - what the hell is being "strated"?

insidiousbookworm
05-14-2012, 05:16 PM
OK, I'll bite - what the hell is being "strated"?

"My #2 SNCO out of 6" as a line on your EPR; that sort of thing.

This year was my first eligilble for stratification, so I don't know how it will affect anything--or where I ended up at yet.

Shrike
05-14-2012, 05:20 PM
OK, I'll bite - what the hell is being "strated"?

It's short for stratification.

Kicker47
05-14-2012, 05:20 PM
I've run into an issue where my unit has a Strat worksheet. It basically assigns point values for things like degrees, # of PCSs, #of post-2001 deployments, awards, etc. My big issue with it is that this unit is primarily aircraft maintainers. As a missile guy, I've been automatically handicapped by this worksheet. My career field simply does not have the PCS and Deployment #s to compete.

Shrike
05-14-2012, 05:23 PM
Most people promoted to SMSgt/CMSgt are not strated. With that said, are strats just “one” good bullet or do you think they truly make a “significant” difference to the promotion board? For those who have been strated…did it significantly change your scores the following board…?

I was not strated when I tested for SMSgt; I made it the first time. I was not strated my first time testing for CMSgt, #1 of X the second time and got the exact same board score each time.

iReddit
05-14-2012, 05:26 PM
SRE is the real deal maker - hard to get promoted without it. Strat, on the other hand, has all the jump through hoops and politicking requirements, with far more subjectivity. I would rather not have a strat than a have weak one.

Calmo70
05-14-2012, 05:27 PM
Ok - now I understand. Now, I retired in 1998, but worked for a retired E-9 dickhead at Ramstein in the late 80's as his Supt. He tried to give me a 4 EPR as a Senior because I fought with him so much on dumb crap he was trying to put on the troops in our shop. Luckily, our sq/cc made him change it.

But, he went the other way knowing it would hurt me with the first line on the EPR stating., "SMSgt ------ is without a doubt the best senior NCO in the Air Force." Long story short - I made Senior first time eligible, highest board score and number one selectee in my AFSC. After this line on the top EPR going before the Chief promotion board, my board score was 60 points below my senior score, and I was number 13 non-select in the AFSC.

So - to me, unless the person writing it is at a level that it matters, it could end up hurting you more than it helps.

Mr. Happy
05-14-2012, 05:30 PM
OK, I'll bite - what the hell is being "strated"?

Strats are a product of a failed enlisted evaluation system. Since just about everyone is a 5, they had to devise another method to sort out who unit leadership REALLY wants to see promoted to SMSgt and CMSgt. It's a flawed system though because you're being ranked among other SNCOs in other functional areas and only in that particular rating chain/unit; but you compete against your career-field peers across the entire Air Force for the actual promotions.

Basically not having one or not sends a message to the board about how your leadership REALLY feels about your prospects for higher responsibility. Some say they don't matter, but I'd bet they have at least some impact on the board member's scoring.

RetSNCO
05-14-2012, 05:32 PM
You know, this is a pretty good question. I was given a pretty good strat at 1 assignment and it didn't seem to do much. Then I changed units and missed the strat board so I was left out cold for a whole board cycle. However, when the command chief reviewed my records, he realized I would have probably been given a strat. So, instead of the normal #X out of XX, I was given a very strong promotion statement from the Sr Rater. It was my best board score and I was selected. Coincidence? Don't know. At the very least it told me the strats (even from a 3-star) were not as important as everyone thinks.

iReddit
05-14-2012, 05:38 PM
- My #2 of 3 MSgts; farts excellence; groom for possible flight chief with squadron Supt to follow

Kicker47
05-14-2012, 05:39 PM
Strats are a product of a failed enlisted evaluation system. Since just about everyone is a 5, they had to devise another method to sort out who unit leadership REALLY wants to see promoted to SMSgt and CMSgt. It's a flawed system though because you're being ranked among other SNCOs in other functional areas and only in that particular rating chain/unit; but you compete against your career-field peers across the entire Air Force for the actual promotions.

Basically not having one or not sends a message to the board about how your leadership REALLY feels about your propsects for higher responsibility. Some say they don't matter, but I'd bet they have at least some impact on the board member's scoring.

Well said. My point exactly...especially when said leadership has no knowledge or experience with your career field.

Measure Man
05-14-2012, 05:42 PM
I was strat'd #1 as a MSgt...don't think it helped that much, it took me an additional two years to make it...plus that was before they locked down strats and everybody was #1 at something.

Was strat'd #1 again as a SMSgt on my 4th try at Chief and made it...don't think that's what put me over though, my board score wasn't in the stratosphere, and I had been #1 non-select the year prior without it.

IME, the biggest "silver bullets" out there, even more than strats, are PME awards. Those seem to put you into the top tier of board scores more than anything else. Nothing is automatic though, you have to have a supporting record.

SotaPop
05-14-2012, 06:24 PM
Being strated for me is different. Everyone in the careerfield falls under one senior rater. It should help

Absinthe Anecdote
05-14-2012, 06:32 PM
It might carry more weight one year and less the next.

Depends on the philosophy of the people scoring packages that year.

BRUWIN
05-14-2012, 09:16 PM
You guys will probably think I'm full of it...but I was never strated for either E-8 or E-9. Unbelievable ain't it? I'm sure ya'll are thinking "yeah right...he's # 1 no matter what he says." However, I wasn't strated...no troll, no lie.

Anyways...still picked up both.

Orion
05-14-2012, 09:17 PM
Strats are a product of a failed enlisted evaluation system. Since just about everyone is a 5, they had to devise another method to sort out who unit leadership REALLY wants to see promoted to SMSgt and CMSgt. It's a flawed system though because you're being ranked among other SNCOs in other functional areas and only in that particular rating chain/unit; but you compete against your career-field peers across the entire Air Force for the actual promotions.

Basically not having one or not sends a message to the board about how your leadership REALLY feels about your prospects for higher responsibility. Some say they don't matter, but I'd bet they have at least some impact on the board member's scoring.


You are exactly right. A Strat is nothing more than a WG/CCC Quota. Problem is in its execution. Every WG and command Chief has a different way of deciding their “Strat”. Some ask the member for their records and also to fill in a strat questionnaire. The Group Chiefs then Board their records and decide the strat. Others just pick them based on who’s the award winner, or the favored son of the base.

I’ve seen some Command Chiefs be very strict and try and be fair, I’ve seen others completely corrupt the process. I know of at least 2 Wings that do multiple strat boards per year. Problem is that the same WG/CC has his name on multiple #1 Strats.

The whole program is broke and over rated. I was promoted without it, but then again I lived overseas where the promotion rates beat the AF average year after year in my AFSC.

BRUWIN
05-14-2012, 09:22 PM
You are exactly right. A Strat is nothing more than a WG/CCC Quota. Problem is in its execution. Every WG and command Chief has a different way of deciding their “Strat”. Some ask the member for their records and also to fill in a strat questionnaire. The Group Chiefs then Board their records and decide the strat. Others just pick them based on who’s the award winner, or the favored son of the base.

I’ve seen some Command Chiefs be very strict and try and be fair, I’ve seen others completely corrupt the process. I know of at least 2 Wings that do multiple strat boards per year. Problem is that the same WG/CC has his name on multiple #1 Strats.

The whole program is broke and over rated. I was promoted without it, but then again I lived overseas where the promotion rates beat the AF average year after year in my AFSC.

I've done the strat board...I hate it. Like someone said, if we did the EPR system properly it wouldn't be necessary. I'll never forget sitting in on one where the flyerss complained they shouldn't have to compete compete against a Shirt and they should have their own qouta despite the fact we all worked for the same SR. Yeah...that got me chiming in real quick.

DWWSWWD
05-14-2012, 11:07 PM
I've done the strat board...I hate it. Like someone said, if we did the EPR system properly it wouldn't be necessary. I'll never forget sitting in on one where the flyerss complained they shouldn't have to compete compete against a Shirt and they should have their own qouta despite the fact we all worked for the same SR. Yeah...that got me chiming in real quick. I also do not agree that a Shirt should compete with the sled dogs for a strat. Conflict of interest if you're in one of those units where the MSgts are climbing all over one another. If I've got an issue, I'm going to go to the Shirt about it? I don't think so. They're getting strats is why we see Shirts sucking dicks to get elected as the Top 3 Treasurer or some bullshit. Didn't used to be that way.

Ripcord
05-14-2012, 11:28 PM
- My #2 of 3 MSgts; farts excellence; groom for possible flight chief with squadron Supt to follow

Hey did you by chance get that from my last EPR?

Anyway, I got strated (at SQ level) on my last EPR and this is my first year testing for Senior. I'm sure the strat won't get me that stripe but it can't hurt....

Talking to our Chief I got the impression strating (at group and wing level) is a tool they Chiefs and the 0-6 can use to flag people for being shit hot. for instance if the Chief really wants someone to get promoted they bump them up the list for approval by the 0-6. Another subjective measuring stick in a box of broken tools I'm sure.

BRUWIN
05-15-2012, 03:38 AM
I also do not agree that a Shirt should compete with the sled dogs for a strat. Conflict of interest if you're in one of those units where the MSgts are climbing all over one another. If I've got an issue, I'm going to go to the Shirt about it? I don't think so. They're getting strats is why we see Shirts sucking dicks to get elected as the Top 3 Treasurer or some bullshit. Didn't used to be that way.

If you saw how the strat list was going during that particular meeting (flyers got almost all of them) you would understand. I was getting pissed. Then, because a Shirt was getting one of the higher ones they bitched. I on the other hand only had one troop going up. We were a squadron falling under a NAF if that makes any sense...my one intel guy against all these flyers and a shirt. By the time my guy was strated it wasn't good enough for us to even bother with. The SR is a flyer as well so my troop had no chance. It's also pretty hard when flyers are deploying for 4 months (my guy deployed for 6 months) and from the sounds of their packages they are all taking AK-47 rounds at 32,000 feeet. An exxageration I know...but you know what I'm saying. Doing your job as aircrew can be made to sound a whole lot more glorious than doing your job as an intel guy.

iReddit
05-15-2012, 12:40 PM
You guys will probably think I'm full of it...but I was never strated for either E-8 or E-9. Unbelievable ain't it? I'm sure ya'll are thinking "yeah right...he's # 1 no matter what he says." However, I wasn't strated...no troll, no lie.

Anyways...still picked up both.

I always pegged you for number two.

Retired Toad
05-15-2012, 12:54 PM
Strat?? I personally prefer a Les Paul myself!!

BRUWIN
05-15-2012, 02:11 PM
I always pegged you for number two.

OK...now you're just trolling.

DWWSWWD
05-15-2012, 02:27 PM
If you saw how the strat list was going during that particular meeting (flyers got almost all of them) you would understand. I was getting pissed. Then, because a Shirt was getting one of the higher ones they bitched. I on the other hand only had one troop going up. We were a squadron falling under a NAF if that makes any sense...my one intel guy against all these flyers and a shirt. By the time my guy was strated it wasn't good enough for us to even bother with. The SR is a flyer as well so my troop had no chance. It's also pretty hard when flyers are deploying for 4 months (my guy deployed for 6 months) and from the sounds of their packages they are all taking AK-47 rounds at 32,000 feeet. An exxageration I know...but you know what I'm saying. Doing your job as aircrew can be made to sound a whole lot more glorious than doing your job as an intel guy.

I worked in a very high speed unit for a while where I was "the help." We didn't win awards or get strats. We did figure a way to strat among the help, though the numbers were smaller. I get what you are saying and its frustrating for your guys. Seperate issue from Shirts getting stratted. I would never make the argument on mission impact, like these guys seemed to do, rather on principle. The Shirt has dirt on folks and shouldn't be in the mix. He also has a very special relationship with the sq CC and can influence the numbers with a simple, "You may want to re-think that, sir. I'm working an issue at my level..."

I was privy to a conversation with CMSAF McKinley about this very issue. It became uncomfortably heated and weird. Not a confrontation guy, that one.

raider8169
05-15-2012, 02:40 PM
Doing your job as aircrew can be made to sound a whole lot more glorious than doing your job as an intel guy.

Doing your job as an intel guy sounds a lot more glorious than doing your job as a comm guy.

I dont think it is possible to ever compare a comm guy to someone from another AFSC. Im sure it works the same for other AFSC's as well.

CrustySMSgt
05-15-2012, 02:41 PM
Having just sat on the last SMSgt board, I'll give you my 2¢...

Having strats does make you stand out, especially if you consistantly get stratted. But not having them, with your record still reflecting sustained superior performance carries just as much weight. Don't thing you're going to shoot your wad in one year and make the cut. Those who really stand out are those getting Levitow at ALS, NCOA, and SNCOA, winning awards ABOVE the Sq level, and getting involved. Once you look at a few hundred EPRs it does become easier to see who's REALLY in the top 10% and who isn't. SMSgt is the toughest cut, given the low promotion percentage.

Still a LOT of unauthorized strats out there, such as "# out of # SNCOs" or "The best guy since sliced bread" or the silly "Best SNCO I've ever worked with" from an LT... While most of the time the ratee doesn't have control over what is written, the more senior you are, the more influence you should have on your report content.

Do great at your job, demonstrate LEADERSHIP on and off duty, and good things will come.

CrustySMSgt
05-15-2012, 02:44 PM
Seperate issue from Shirts getting stratted. ... He also has a very special relationship with the sq CC and can influence the numbers with a simple, "You may want to re-think that, sir. I'm working an issue at my level..."


AMEN! The 1st Sgt's JOB is to do most of the other things folks have to find time to do while still doing their REAL job. Very important position, but should not be in the mix for strats.

Measure Man
05-15-2012, 02:47 PM
from the sounds of their packages they are all taking AK-47 rounds at 32,000 feeet.

OTOH, if a guy really is consistently taking rounds from an AK-47 and performing well, then he probably deserves that promotion.

I personally have no problem with real combat warriors getting promoted faster than the rest of us. Of course, they're competing against themselves and I'm competing against, well, other guys like me.

CrustySMSgt
05-15-2012, 02:49 PM
You guys will probably think I'm full of it...

That's a given! :roll

LTNS; glad you're still around keeping folks straight!

BRUWIN
05-15-2012, 02:56 PM
OTOH, if a guy really is consistently taking rounds from an AK-47 and performing well, then he probably deserves that promotion.

I personally have no problem with realy combat warriors getting promoted faster than the rest of us. Of course, they're competing against themselves and I'm competing against, well, other guys like me.

Very true. I did try to keep the whole process in perspective. It's just hard to do that sometimes when you are suddenly dealing with AFSCs that are used to getting their way. Once I walked out I would try to think to myself "ya know...this whole thing is BS anyways so don't worry about it." And it really is...in the grand scheme of strats mean little, at least in my experience. Like Crusty said...sustained performance is what will pull you through.

DWWSWWD
05-15-2012, 04:08 PM
Very true. I did try to keep the whole process in perspective. It's just hard to do that sometimes when you are suddenly dealing with AFSCs that are used to getting their way. Once I walked out I would try to think to myself "ya know...this whole thing is BS anyways so don't worry about it." And it really is...in the grand scheme of strats mean little, at least in my experience. Like Crusty said...sustained performance is what will pull you through. One of the low points in my career was when I was involved in a strat board and the E-9 running it, did a secret ballot thing for a loser on his last chance to get promoted. It ran my guy out. He had a single digit strat the year before and ended up with nothing because of this clown. Very helpless feeling and I beat my self up pretty good for a while. I ended up going to the Group CC about it and letting him know what happened.

Capt Alfredo
05-15-2012, 10:41 PM
Still a LOT of unauthorized strats out there, such as "# out of # SNCOs" or "The best guy since sliced bread" or the silly "Best SNCO I've ever worked with" from an LT...

Wait a second. What's wrong with the first one? X out of X of anything is a good strat because it limits the scope. "My #3 of 10 SNCOs" is way better than "one of my best SNCOs." The first is specific and the second is pure BS.

ske4za
05-15-2012, 10:47 PM
Wait a second. What's wrong with the first one? X out of X of anything is a good strat because it limits the scope. "My #3 of 10 SNCOs" is way better than "one of my best SNCOs." The first is specific and the second is pure BS.

I think he's saying you have to specific as in "#1 out of 7 MSgts" and not "#1 out of 7 SNCOs

Absinthe Anecdote
05-15-2012, 10:53 PM
I always wanted to get Seven of Nine. :-)

CrustySMSgt
05-15-2012, 10:57 PM
Wait a second. What's wrong with the first one? X out of X of anything is a good strat because it limits the scope. "My #3 of 10 SNCOs" is way better than "one of my best SNCOs." The first is specific and the second is pure BS.

And now we know why these strats keep appearing... lol

ONLY authorized enlisted strats (to include "implied" strats, i.e., "the super-duper bestest (AFSC) ever") are for TIG eligible MSgts and SMSgt, and will specifically state, "# of ## MSgts/SMSgts"

KellyinAvon
05-15-2012, 11:06 PM
And now we know why these strats keep appearing... lol

ONLY authorized enlisted strats (to include "implied" strats, i.e., "the super-duper bestest (AFSC) ever") are for TIG eligible MSgts and SMSgt, and will specifically state, "# of ## MSgts/SMSgts"

I always strive to be "super-duper bestest ever". :biggrin Maybe I'll go for "super-duperest uber bestest ever infinity". I'm glad I'm retired, it was starting to get silly when I retired in 07.

mjt
05-16-2012, 03:21 AM
Wait a second. What's wrong with the first one? X out of X of anything is a good strat because it limits the scope. "My #3 of 10 SNCOs" is way better than "one of my best SNCOs." The first is specific and the second is pure BS.

Hi Capt Alfredo. A strat must be within a specific peer group, aka MSgt or SMSgt.

www.afsoc.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-070403-061.doc

The link above is the most recent enlisted strat guidance that I know of. It does a decent job explaining what is/isn't acceptable.

The only variation I've seen is a strat justified by an award. Eg "The best MSgt Maintainer! 2011 Mx Professional of the Year..." However, in my experience it varies base to base.

bcoco14
05-16-2012, 04:06 AM
And now we know why these strats keep appearing... lol

ONLY authorized enlisted strats (to include "implied" strats, i.e., "the super-duper bestest (AFSC) ever") are for TIG eligible MSgts and SMSgt, and will specifically state, "# of ## MSgts/SMSgts"

I had an EPR kicked back because I put "go to NCO" on a SSgt EPR. They said it was an implied strat and had to change it.

Now we don't use fluff on anyones EPR anymore and they score each bullet on a 2 point scale depending on the content and stucture of the bullet. Maybe it's going to be good in the long run, maybe not but it sure is a pain in the ass to write an EPR now.

Drackore
05-16-2012, 08:17 AM
To hell with the whole board, strat, Sr Rater system. I don't care about them and I never will. If you are focused on these things, you are failing at your job. Take care of the people, support leadership, and fight leadership when needed...the rest will fall into place. If you spend more time kissing Command Chief butt than you do supporting your people - you a a f**ktard tool and should be kicked in the face repeatedly.

I've worked with enough idiot SNCOs that only cared about fluffing their EPRs and board scores and stealing credit from other people's work, all the while I watched their people suffer needlessly...so it's a sore topic.

Shrike
05-16-2012, 11:23 AM
To hell with the whole board, strat, Sr Rater system. I don't care about them and I never will. If you are focused on these things, you are failing at your job. Take care of the people, support leadership, and fight leadership when needed...the rest will fall into place. If you spend more time kissing Command Chief butt than you do supporting your people - you a a f**ktard tool and should be kicked in the face repeatedly.

I've worked with enough idiot SNCOs that only cared about fluffing their EPRs and board scores and stealing credit from other people's work, all the while I watched their people suffer needlessly...so it's a sore topic.


+1. I tell my people "just take care of your mission, your people, and your boss's priorities to the best of your ability and good things will happen."

Capt Alfredo
05-16-2012, 12:23 PM
You learn something new everyday. Good thing I don't have anyone to rate (much less a SNCO) because I probably would have screwed it up.

Big Blue
07-27-2013, 05:03 PM
Had a question for Crusty SMSgt and other folks. Missed out on Wg strat this year and only got one from Sq. Does that still help if not Wg level? It's my first strat. First time tested last year and got 382.5 and was # 3 non selectee. Just curious if that might give me a boost if everything else is relative, doing my part now studying to bridge the gap! Thanks!

Ripcord
07-27-2013, 05:09 PM
Had a question for Crusty SMSgt and other folks. Missed out on Wg strat this year and only got one from Sq. Does that still help if not Wg level? It's my first strat. First time tested last year and got 382.5 and was # 3 non selectee. Just curious if that might give me a boost if everything else is relative, doing my part now studying to bridge the gap! Thanks!

The only strat I ever received was squadron. #2 first year and #1 following year. I made it first time with a 405. I don't put much into strats... I think they are over rated.

DWWSWWD
07-27-2013, 05:55 PM
Had a question for Crusty SMSgt and other folks. Missed out on Wg strat this year and only got one from Sq. Does that still help if not Wg level? It's my first strat. First time tested last year and got 382.5 and was # 3 non selectee. Just curious if that might give me a boost if everything else is relative, doing my part now studying to bridge the gap! Thanks!

Great job! That's a good board score and a good standing. Sometimes strat boards will hesitate to give a wing strat or a strong wing strat to a guy the first time up. Squadron leaves room for growth and is no harm at all. Make sure you do the things to maintain it and you should be good to go. You've shown that you can do your part and the wing should step up and give you what you've earned. Top strats SHOULD go to those most promotable. Obviously, that's you.

LogDog
07-27-2013, 07:35 PM
I've always thought the strat system was bogus because the Wing Commander doesn't know all the SNCOs on his base of if he does he has a very small base. How can you compare a SMSgt in one career field to another SMSgts in other career fields? It's like the complaints I heard about the SrA BTZ Board when an A1C from the ER or fire department competes with someone from base personnel. The guy from the ER or fire department saved a life whereas the base personnel guy processed X number of orders. Each career field is different challenges, people, missions, etc.. Commanders don't need to stratify their people; they should do what the EPR is intended for and that is to observe, evaluate, and report on how well the individual handles their duties and responsibilities and let the EPR tell the story.

Another problem with the stratification system is often those who get the top numbers in the strat are the ones with the most face time with the Wing Commander. You can be the best SMSgt or MSgt in your career field in the AF but unless the Wing Commander or Command Chief Master Sergeant knows you the chance of being at the top of the strat is slim. That is why, IMO, some of Chiefs posters have complained about being douche bags made it; they had face time.

Big Blue
07-27-2013, 08:37 PM
Thanks for the replies so far. I receive more mentorship nuggets from this Forum than I do at work! It's good to hear from those that have been there and done it! It's hard when you are embedded with most that are not in your career field...seems they take care of their own. I just had not heard much about Sq strats and if they were still impactful. Logic seems it would be. All advice is appreciated.

raustin0017
07-27-2013, 11:17 PM
Sat on promotion board. For me...Stratifications from Sr Raters tell the board this package is above average....how much above average is up to the board to score.

The average MSgt has all 5s, CCAF, PME, MSM, and Sr Rater endorsement. Above average MSst/SMSgt have Stratifications.

The system is not broken...it works pretty well. Do you need a Strat to get promoted? Absolutely not. Does it help? Absolutely.

Chief_KO
07-27-2013, 11:53 PM
Would love to see strats go bye bye in this upcoming EPR change. Too much time and energy spent doing the strat Kabuki dance twice a year. One SR thinks the SNCO of the Year is automatically number 1, the next SR has a different view. Elimination of strats would be a step in the right direction to cut down some inflation.
WRT SR visibility...I've known as many "face time" SNCOs (Top III pres, AFSA pres, etc.) make the next stripe as those that don't. Also, if you get a really high strat too early, it can be hard to sustain...especially if your CONUS and are at the same base multiple years.
What really sucks is when you lobbied hard to get his guy/gal a good strat at wing/group and then that SNCO doesn't study or goes in WAPS day and answers all As. If you don't want board consideration for promotion, tell your Chief. I won't look negatively on you, in fact I respect and appreciate your honesty.
And if you are the best in your AFSC, you would have the award (or other supporting material in your EPR) stating so...that tells the board a whole lot as well.

Chief_KO
07-27-2013, 11:58 PM
Would love to see strats go bye bye in this upcoming EPR change. Too much time and energy spent doing the strat Kabuki dance twice a year. One SR thinks the SNCO of the Year is automatically number 1, the next SR has a different view. Elimination of strats would be a step in the right direction to cut down some inflation.
WRT SR visibility...I've known as many "face time" SNCOs (Top III pres, AFSA pres, etc.) make the next stripe as those that don't. Also, if you get a really high strat too early, it can be hard to sustain...especially if your CONUS and are at the same base multiple years.
What really sucks is when you lobbied hard to get his guy/gal a good strat at wing/group and then that SNCO doesn't study or goes in WAPS day and answers all As. If you don't want board consideration for promotion, tell your Chief. I won't look negatively on you, in fact I respect and appreciate your honesty.
And if you are the best in your AFSC, you would have the award (or other supporting material in your EPR) stating so...that tells the board a whole lot as well.

LogDog
07-28-2013, 12:48 AM
Sat on promotion board. For me...Stratifications from Sr Raters tell the board this package is above average....how much above average is up to the board to score.

The average MSgt has all 5s, CCAF, PME, MSM, and Sr Rater endorsement. Above average MSst/SMSgt have Stratifications.

The system is not broken...it works pretty well. Do you need a Strat to get promoted? Absolutely not. Does it help? Absolutely.
Since you sat on a promotion board, maybe you can verify something I once heard. On SRE, the board members are presented with statistics on how many SRE the commander gave. Those with a higher number were worth less than those who gave fewer. Is this true?

Airborne
07-28-2013, 01:25 AM
Since you sat on a promotion board, maybe you can verify something I once heard. On SRE, the board members are presented with statistics on how many SRE the commander gave. Those with a higher number were worth less than those who gave fewer. Is this true?

I hope this is not the case. That would give more precedence on luck of the draw PCSs so someone at an HQ base with more SNCOs is not worth as much as someone at a GSU.

LogDog
07-28-2013, 01:47 AM
I hope this is not the case. That would give more precedence on luck of the draw PCSs so someone at an HQ base with more SNCOs is not worth as much as someone at a GSU.
The downside would be if you are stationed at a base with a commander who give too many SREs but he's usually there for only 2 years and another commander comes who comes in and gives very few SRE so you most likely will have an opportunity for an SRE.

I think the idea of stratifying SNCOs is more political than actual performance/results. Being at a base with a commander who routinely endorses SNCOs makes me think either he's easily impressed or he thinks he really helping the SNCOs. I'd prefer just to have the SRE without the ranking which shows, to me, you've done well enough to get that recognition beyond the group level. I've had the Wing Commander be my SRE without being ranked #_ of _ SNCOs and it didn't bother me because I don't believe I was the best or among the best. My performance for the jobs I had is what was important to me because that told the story.

Ripcord
07-28-2013, 02:07 AM
In the Officer world it's ALL about the strats. Just look at a PRF. EVERY bullet is supposed to be strated. I wonder how much of that culture effects SNCO strats?

CrustySMSgt
07-28-2013, 02:16 AM
Had a question for Crusty SMSgt and other folks. Missed out on Wg strat this year and only got one from Sq. Does that still help if not Wg level? It's my first strat. First time tested last year and got 382.5 and was # 3 non selectee. Just curious if that might give me a boost if everything else is relative, doing my part now studying to bridge the gap! Thanks!

You came in with good scores your first time; assuming your performance was equal or better this year, plus the strat your STANDING (because THAT is what is important, NOT your raw board score) should improve and put you in the mix. Not sure how many you were strated amongst, but getting stratted in the same unit when you weren't the previous year shows you are moving in the right direction. Strat at the wing isn't required; I'd say you should be better off this year than you were last.


I've always thought the strat system was bogus because the Wing Commander doesn't know all the SNCOs on his base of if he does he has a very small base. How can you compare a SMSgt in one career field to another SMSgts in other career fields? It's like the complaints I heard about the SrA BTZ Board when an A1C from the ER or fire department competes with someone from base personnel. The guy from the ER or fire department saved a life whereas the base personnel guy processed X number of orders. Each career field is different challenges, people, missions, etc.. Commanders don't need to stratify their people; they should do what the EPR is intended for and that is to observe, evaluate, and report on how well the individual handles their duties and responsibilities and let the EPR tell the story.

Another problem with the stratification system is often those who get the top numbers in the strat are the ones with the most face time with the Wing Commander. You can be the best SMSgt or MSgt in your career field in the AF but unless the Wing Commander or Command Chief Master Sergeant knows you the chance of being at the top of the strat is slim. That is why, IMO, some of Chiefs posters have complained about being douche bags made it; they had face time.

The board panels are functionally based, but even then there is a wide range of duties within the functional areas, so it can be hard to compare apples & apples. You have to be able to put everyone on an equal footing and look at what they've done with the cards they're dealt. The FD or ER folks' job is to save lives, just like it is the finance troop's job to hand out money... you can't give more weight to those with hua jobs, just because their jobs are more hua. A huge reason to not fall in to the trap of thinking your records are going to be reviewed by "one of you" because most often they aren't (especially when it comes to awards); ALWAYS dumb it down to the lowest common denominator and highlight leadership, scope of responsibility and the impact you've had on the big picture mission.

I'll agree the CC & CCM can't possibly know everyone they stratify; sure, they probbly interact with the first couple in some capacity on duty or through proffesional/private orgs, but the rest are selected because their records speak for themselves (and their Group Supts advocate for them).


Would love to see strats go bye bye in this upcoming EPR change.

I'd rather see it go in the opposite direction, at least at the unit level. Stratify everyone! Telling someone they're #40 of 40 sends a VERY clear message to the individual (and a board). This is going to have to happen if the "Q word" comes in to play, which I've heard thrown around. I'm all for it... we're never going to overcome the "nice guy" factor that keeps most people from giving away 5s; take being the bad guy out of their hands and it forces them to make the tough calls they should be doing on their own.


Since you sat on a promotion board, maybe you can verify something I once heard. On SRE, the board members are presented with statistics on how many SRE the commander gave. Those with a higher number were worth less than those who gave fewer. Is this true?

That's the Navy.

Eastwood
07-28-2013, 01:51 PM
The Strat is important, buts is a Quota that no one ever talks about. No one does it the same and it can be nothing more than a popularity contest. I have seen the strat process at 3 bases and depending on the CCC, it can be legit or corrupt. Also, I sat on the SMSgt Promotion board few years ago and we knew if it was legit. Some WG/CC's and Command Chiefs are known for giving away their signature and it cheapened the strat impact. Nothing like several #1 strats from the same base. Also few CCC who have a dozen different ways of saying #1. My #1 of 15 SMSgt’s, My #1 of 80 Cops, My #1 Superintendent. You get the picture. Our current Command Chief and few of the Group Chiefs rate on popularity, not ability to lead. Our current #1 is a step promoted poster girl who spends more time on the cheer team than at her job. We made our recommendations and the CCC made the selection.

Eastwood
07-28-2013, 01:53 PM
Since you sat on a promotion board, maybe you can verify something I once heard. On SRE, the board members are presented with statistics on how many SRE the commander gave. Those with a higher number were worth less than those who gave fewer. Is this true?

No, I served on a SMSgt Board and we did not get a list. But it was very obvious who's signiture was weak.

Big Blue
07-28-2013, 03:07 PM
@ Crusty, thats an excellent point regarding being in the same sqdn and receiving the strat this year when I hadn't before. Our pool isn't that big but I was stratted #2 of 15 MSgt's. I didn't have any awards on last years but this one includes a Gp Qtrly award and a ______ of the Year(base) for my AFSC. Thanks again for the great insight!

CrustySMSgt
07-28-2013, 03:28 PM
Also few CCC who have a dozen different ways of saying #1. ...My #1 of 80 Cops, My #1 Superintendent. You get the picture.

Those type of strats have been unauthorized for 5 years or so...

raustin0017
07-28-2013, 11:48 PM
Since you sat on a promotion board, maybe you can verify something I once heard. On SRE, the board members are presented with statistics on how many SRE the commander gave. Those with a higher number were worth less than those who gave fewer. Is this true?

Not true. The board is presented the promotion folder and nothing more.

grimreaper
07-29-2013, 12:02 AM
Not true. The board is presented the promotion folder and nothing more.

Is it reflected in the member's RIP what their education level is? I know it says if they finished their CCAF and if they've completed SNCO PME (without saying in-residence or Course 14), but does it show if the member has a Bachelor's degree (or higher) as well? Heard conflicting stories on that.

Chief_KO
07-29-2013, 12:54 AM
If memory serves up to 3 academic degrees can be listed. It is up to the member to get that updated through the education office. The member does not have to list all degrees earned, example: Member has a BA in French Art History (they love art, especially French and plan on becoming an art teacher after retirement). Would a promotion board look favorably on this degree? Some say yes (it shows completion of higher education), some say no (degree has no correlation to AF AFSC, military science or leadership). You can decide to have a degree listed or not.
SNCOA simply is a Y or N, no discrimination as to residence or correspondence. The only way a board would no if in residence is if the member received an award and it was in their EPR.

DWWSWWD
07-29-2013, 02:03 PM
If memory serves up to 3 academic degrees can be listed. It is up to the member to get that updated through the education office. Yep. I had a little tiff with them over this. I had 2 AAs and a BS when I went over to have my MA loaded. They said nope, you already have three. OK, great. Just remove the AAS that is exactly the same as my BS and add the MA. Nope. Can't do that. Obviously they could and we got it worked out.

euripedes
07-29-2013, 03:02 PM
If memory serves up to 3 academic degrees can be listed. It is up to the member to get that updated through the education office. The member does not have to list all degrees earned, example: Member has a BA in French Art History (they love art, especially French and plan on becoming an art teacher after retirement). Would a promotion board look favorably on this degree? Some say yes (it shows completion of higher education), some say no (degree has no correlation to AF AFSC, military science or leadership). You can decide to have a degree listed or not.
SNCOA simply is a Y or N, no discrimination as to residence or correspondence. The only way a board would no if in residence is if the member received an award and it was in their EPR.

This describes my situation to a T. My bachelor's and my master's are both in English Literature because I do plan on teaching when i retire. But I've consistently been told by Chiefs in and out of my career field that if your degree is not in your AFSC/field or doesn't serve the needs of the military in some way, you're no different than someone who just has a CCAF. I couldn't get upset...I made that decision to go that route knowing the consequences. It's on my record but i know it won't win me any favor on the board.

DWWSWWD
07-29-2013, 03:10 PM
This describes my situation to a T. My bachelor's and my master's are both in English Literature because I do plan on teaching when i retire. But I've consistently been told by Chiefs in and out of my career field that if your degree is not in your AFSC/field or doesn't serve the needs of the military in some way, you're no different than someone who just has a CCAF. I couldn't get upset...I made that decision to go that route knowing the consequences. It's on my record but i know it won't win me any favor on the board.

Absolutely false. Only a fool would think that an advanced degree other than a CCAF doesn't bring value to the team. These are the same clowns that will give you the CSAF reading list bullet. Good for you for bettering yourself and keeping your eye on the longer term.

raustin0017
07-29-2013, 05:45 PM
Is it reflected in the member's RIP what their education level is? I know it says if they finished their CCAF and if they've completed SNCO PME (without saying in-residence or Course 14), but does it show if the member has a Bachelor's degree (or higher) as well? Heard conflicting stories on that.

Promotion Folders: The folder is two parts; Right side = EPRs, Left side = Citations, and administration actions. When you first open up a promotion folder you will find one or two sheets of paper on top (left-side). One of them is the SNCO Evaluation Brief and the other will be a Lost Record memo (if the member found something missing and took action to have it recorded). Most records do not have the Lost Record memo. Why? Because over 60% of SNCO do not do a record review. For those who do and find something missing and can not produce the document in time for the board to score that action is annotated by the Lost Record memo and thus the member will not be 'penalized' for the missing doc.

The SNCO Evaluation Brief contains a snapshot of the members career. Sort of like a SURF but not as much detail as a SURF. It has info such as PAFSC, current duty title, CCAF (Yes/No), PME (Yes/NO) and other info. It does not list additional education info other than the CCAF.

grimreaper
07-29-2013, 05:54 PM
The SNCO Evaluation Brief contains a snapshot of the members career. Sort of like a SURF but not as much detail as a SURF. It has info such as PAFSC, current duty title, CCAF (Yes/No), PME (Yes/NO) and other info. It does not list additional education info other than the CCAF.

Thanks. I've also heard from a few Chiefs that some boards only look at the back side of the EPR's. Some other Chiefs said they look at front and back, so I guess it depends on the board maybe.

Here's the rub I have with it if some boards only do look a the backsides of EPRs...if a member has an advanced degree that is mentioned on the front side of the EPR under the education section, the board may never even see that they have an advanced degree since it's not mentioned on the Evaluation Brief. It doesn't make sense to me why it wouldn't be included in the brief.

CrustySMSgt
07-29-2013, 05:54 PM
This describes my situation to a T. My bachelor's and my master's are both in English Literature because I do plan on teaching when i retire. But I've consistently been told by Chiefs in and out of my career field that if your degree is not in your AFSC/field or doesn't serve the needs of the military in some way, you're no different than someone who just has a CCAF. I couldn't get upset...I made that decision to go that route knowing the consequences. It's on my record but i know it won't win me any favor on the board.


Absolutely false. Only a fool would think that an advanced degree other than a CCAF doesn't bring value to the team. These are the same clowns that will give you the CSAF reading list bullet. Good for you for bettering yourself and keeping your eye on the longer term.

There are a lot of "clowns" out there; I've heard many a Chief throw out the "not in their specialty" comment... to my, they got the dang degree, how could it not make them a better person/Airman?

raustin0017
07-29-2013, 05:57 PM
You sure it didn't change, you have been retired a year.
Af has been known to change 50 years of heritage in a year before.

True...I have been out for a year. In Feb of 2012 nothing had changed about the Promotion Folder content. So...my info is 18 months old.

Good to see you back!

20+Years
07-29-2013, 06:11 PM
Promotion Folders: The folder is two parts; Right side = EPRs, Left side = Citations, and administration actions. When you first open up a promotion folder you will find one or two sheets of paper on top (left-side). One of them is the SNCO Evaluation Brief and the other will be a Lost Record memo (if the member found something missing and took action to have it recorded). Most records do not have the Lost Record memo. Why? Because over 60% of SNCO do not do a record review. For those who do and find something missing and can not produce the document in time for the board to score that action is annotated by the Lost Record memo and thus the member will not be 'penalized' for the missing doc.

The SNCO Evaluation Brief contains a snapshot of the members career. Sort of like a SURF but not as much detail as a SURF. It has info such as PAFSC, current duty title, CCAF (Yes/No), PME (Yes/NO) and other info. It does not list additional education info other than the CCAF.

Really? I know you saw it first hand but I thought the board saw our education level as listed on the DVB. I can't imagine with the short time the board has with each record its a search-and-find if someone completed a higher degree of education! Crazyness.

raustin0017
07-29-2013, 06:27 PM
Thanks. I've also heard from a few Chiefs that some boards only look at the back side of the EPR's. Some other Chiefs said they look at front and back, so I guess it depends on the board maybe.

Here's the rub I have with it if some boards only do look a the backsides of EPRs...if a member has an advanced degree that is mentioned on the front side of the EPR under the education section, the board may never even see that they have an advanced degree since it's not mentioned on the Evaluation Brief. It doesn't make sense to me why it wouldn't be included in the brief.

The Board scores "mock promotion folders" to practice on before they go to live records. I can only talk about how I conducted the scoring and it all depended of the members record. I sat on the Board 5 yrs ago and scored 1,450 MSgt records in 9 AFSCs. Check this out: Board last 10 duty days X 8 hrs day = 80 hrs X 60 min per hr = 4800 minutes / 1,450 records = 3.3 minutes per record. Each record has 10 yrs of info. Some panels had fewer records to score so the math tells us they would have more time per record.

How do you score 10 yrs of info in 3.3 minutes? This is what I did. First you have to find out what the average promotion folder looks like. After that it is easy to identify what is below/above average. Average MSgt promotion folders have the following: all 5 EPRs, MSM on top if TOS eligible (based on AF average of 3 yrs TOS), CCAF, PME and Sr Rater endorsement. If I opened a promotion folder and the SNCO Evaluation Sheet told me CCAF = No, PME = No. I simply closed up the folder and marked the score sheet without ever reading one line of one EPR. That action took me about 15 seconds and I gave the additional 3.1 minutes to someone who had completed the minimum requirements. If a folder had CCAF = No, PME = Yes I would raise my score a fraction and score the record in 15 seconds. Same for CCAF = Yes, PME = No. Those three categories (CCAF/PME = No, CCAF/PME = No/Yes, CCAF/PME = Yes/No) gave a ton of time back so I could read each record of those who had at least completed CCAF/PME

I could go on about my process...but I'm going to stop there. I can 100% say the promotion system currently being used to score records for MSgt/SMSgt is very intensive and fair.

raustin0017
07-29-2013, 06:28 PM
Really? I know you saw it first hand but I thought the board saw our education level as listed on the DVB. I can't imagine with the short time the board has with each record its a search-and-find if someone completed a higher degree of education! Crazyness.

CCAF = Yes/No that is all the info on the SNCO Evaluation Brief. Unless it changed in the last 18 months?

20+Years
07-29-2013, 07:15 PM
No, the board can't give feedback to the owners of the records they scored. Process and what the team considered important or not is all fair game.

Raustin - I doubt its changed, thats just news to me. I thought there was a form similar to the DVB with past duty history, job titles, education, ect. If not, no biggy. I'll start doing my significant bullets IN ALL BOLD TEXT TO CATCH THE BOARDS ATTENTION. Heh.

grimreaper
07-29-2013, 07:54 PM
The Board scores "mock promotion folders" to practice on before they go to live records. I can only talk about how I conducted the scoring and it all depended of the members record. I sat on the Board 5 yrs ago and scored 1,450 MSgt records in 9 AFSCs. Check this out: Board last 10 duty days X 8 hrs day = 80 hrs X 60 min per hr = 4800 minutes / 1,450 records = 3.3 minutes per record. Each record has 10 yrs of info. Some panels had fewer records to score so the math tells us they would have more time per record.

How do you score 10 yrs of info in 3.3 minutes? This is what I did. First you have to find out what the average promotion folder looks like. After that it is easy to identify what is below/above average. Average MSgt promotion folders have the following: all 5 EPRs, MSM on top if TOS eligible (based on AF average of 3 yrs TOS), CCAF, PME and Sr Rater endorsement. If I opened a promotion folder and the SNCO Evaluation Sheet told me CCAF = No, PME = No. I simply closed up the folder and marked the score sheet without ever reading one line of one EPR. That action took me about 15 seconds and I gave the additional 3.1 minutes to someone who had completed the minimum requirements. If a folder had CCAF = No, PME = Yes I would raise my score a fraction and score the record in 15 seconds. Same for CCAF = Yes, PME = No. Those three categories (CCAF/PME = No, CCAF/PME = No/Yes, CCAF/PME = Yes/No) gave a ton of time back so I could read each record of those who had at least completed CCAF/PME

I could go on about my process...but I'm going to stop there. I can 100% say the promotion system currently being used to score records for MSgt/SMSgt is very intensive and fair.


The way you explain it sounds like even more justification as to why something like an advanced degree should be on the evaluation brief. Given the very limited time the board has per record, why would we not already have it listed in plain view what the highest level of education is?...instead making the board go try and find it and potentially missing it. The DVB is already a document that exists...it's not like they would even have to create something new.

So what you told me sort of confirms my concerns...the board could potentially miss seeing that someone has an advanced degree if they only look at the backsides of performance reports and the degree is mentioned on the front.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-29-2013, 08:14 PM
The way you explain it sounds like even more justification as to why something like an advanced degree should be on the evaluation brief. Given the very limited time the board has per record, why would we not already have it listed in plain view what the highest level of education is?...instead making the board go try and find it and potentially missing it. The DVB is already a document that exists...it's not like they would even have to create something new.

So what you told me sort of confirms my concerns...the board could potentially miss seeing that someone has an advanced degree if they only look at the backsides of performance reports and the degree is mentioned on the front.

I have heard more than one Chief tell me that during certain years having an advanced degree can actually be a drawback. That type of opinion shifts from year to year but some people view a SNCO with a masters degree as someone who spent a little too much time on themselves.

Dumb thinking but it is apparently they way the wind blows certain years. Maybe raustin0017 can confirm?

grimreaper
07-29-2013, 08:23 PM
I have heard more than one Chief tell me that during certain years having an advanced degree can actually be a drawback. That type of opinion shifts from year to year but some people view a SNCO with a masters degree as someone who spent a little too much time on themselves.

Dumb thinking but it is apparently they way the wind blows certain years. Maybe raustin0017 can confirm?

You can look at it this way, but you can also look at it from the perspective of continuous self-improvement. If a MSgt has already completed a BA/BS, it's hard to show continuous improvement. The easiest way to do that is to push forward and be working on the Masters.

Absinthe Anecdote
07-29-2013, 08:31 PM
You can look at it this way, but you can also look at it from the perspective of continuous self-improvement. If a MSgt has already completed a BA/BS, it's hard to show continuous improvement. The easiest way to do that is to push forward and be working on the Masters.

I agree with you; however, there are people out there that think otherwise.

I even heard a Colonel speak on this topic once and he said something to the extent of SNCO’s with advanced degree going against the concept of a strong enlisted corps.

It sounded like elitist bullshit to me.

20+Years
07-29-2013, 08:37 PM
I know the advanced education by an enlisted member was a concern many years back... ya know, when you actually had to sit in a classroom. Now, with online stuff, anyone can get it done. You see deployed people completing classes. I've seen maintainers with degrees! (Seriously!)

Anyone who sees it as a drawback nowadays is just against education in general. If I do online work from 9-11 at night, its not hurting my job.

grimreaper
07-29-2013, 08:55 PM
I agree with you; however, there are people out there that think otherwise.

I even heard a Colonel speak on this topic once and he said something to the extent of SNCO’s with advanced degree going against the concept of a strong enlisted corps.

It sounded like elitist bullshit to me.

That's also what sucks about awards too. Even if somebody already has a BA/BS completed, it's going to look better on an awards package for someone else to be actively working on their BA/BS or have just finished it over someone who has already completed theirs a year or 2 prior. The only way to really be able to compete with that is to push on with the Masters.

CrustySMSgt
07-30-2013, 05:46 AM
Promotion Folders: The folder is two parts; Right side = EPRs, Left side = Citations, and administration actions. When you first open up a promotion folder you will find one or two sheets of paper on top (left-side). One of them is the SNCO Evaluation Brief and the other will be a Lost Record memo (if the member found something missing and took action to have it recorded). Most records do not have the Lost Record memo. Why? Because over 60% of SNCO do not do a record review. For those who do and find something missing and can not produce the document in time for the board to score that action is annotated by the Lost Record memo and thus the member will not be 'penalized' for the missing doc.

The SNCO Evaluation Brief contains a snapshot of the members career. Sort of like a SURF but not as much detail as a SURF. It has info such as PAFSC, current duty title, CCAF (Yes/No), PME (Yes/NO) and other info. It does not list additional education info other than the CCAF.

The Eval brief has 2 sections that cover education. One is the CCAF/PME yes/no section and below that is the top 3 levels of education.

COncur on the thought process that is a SNCO can't take care of their own records, whow can they be expected to take care of their Airmen's.


Thanks. I've also heard from a few Chiefs that some boards only look at the back side of the EPR's. Some other Chiefs said they look at front and back, so I guess it depends on the board maybe.

Here's the rub I have with it if some boards only do look a the backsides of EPRs...if a member has an advanced degree that is mentioned on the front side of the EPR under the education section, the board may never even see that they have an advanced degree since it's not mentioned on the Evaluation Brief. It doesn't make sense to me why it wouldn't be included in the brief.

You've got time to do a quick scan of the front, but the real focus is on the bottom of the front and the stuff on the back. You'd be surprised how many folks bury stuff up top in the front. MIght get lucky and catch a key word in the scan, but if not, you're out of luck. Actually noticed an AF-level functional award in the middle of the job performance section. Nothing to make it stand out, it was just a casual statement.



The Board scores "mock promotion folders" to practice on before they go to live records. I can only talk about how I conducted the scoring and it all depended of the members record. I sat on the Board 5 yrs ago and scored 1,450 MSgt records in 9 AFSCs. Check this out: Board last 10 duty days X 8 hrs day = 80 hrs X 60 min per hr = 4800 minutes / 1,450 records = 3.3 minutes per record. Each record has 10 yrs of info. Some panels had fewer records to score so the math tells us they would have more time per record.

I can 100% say the promotion system currently being used to score records for MSgt/SMSgt is very intensive and fair.

I always had faith it was, but being on the board absolutely confirmed that! With another CHief and Colonel who aren't allowed to discuss a record (unless/until there is a split), you've all got to get on the same sheet of music pretty quick. Good thing about having 3 sets of eyes on each record is, if one or two miss something and the third catches it, you can discuss and adjust scores as appropriate. No way to tank or hook someone up when you've got to convince 2 other people, WITH someone from the board standing over your shoulder to ensure whatever you're discussing only pertains to what is in the record, not personal opinion.


CCAF = Yes/No that is all the info on the SNCO Evaluation Brief. Unless it changed in the last 18 months?

It was the way I described above at least 2 years ago.


I know the advanced education by an enlisted member was a concern many years back... ya know, when you actually had to sit in a classroom. Now, with online stuff, anyone can get it done. You see deployed people completing classes. I've seen maintainers with degrees! (Seriously!)

Anyone who sees it as a drawback nowadays is just against education in general. If I do online work from 9-11 at night, its not hurting my job.

Agreed... back in the day when you actually had to put a moderate level of effort and actually had to GO to class and GO to the library to do research, it took much more time to get advanced degrees. With most people doing it online these days, much less effort is required.

akruse
07-30-2013, 06:50 AM
Agreed... back in the day when you actually had to put a moderate level of effort and actually had to GO to class and GO to the library to do research, it took much more time to get advanced degrees. With most people doing it online these days, much less effort is required.

Broad brush. I'm almost complete with BS and some were taken in person with a majority taken online. By far, the in person classes required MUCH less effort other than showing up for a majority of the classes. Some of my online courses have been much much more challenging than in residence.

SgtS
07-30-2013, 11:49 AM
Broad brush. I'm almost complete with BS and some were taken in person with a majority taken online. By far, the in person classes required MUCH less effort other than showing up for a majority of the classes. Some of my online courses have been much much more challenging than in residence.

Gonna concur on this one. My brick and mortar classes usually required me to show up, sit and the back of the room and rarely say anything to anyone for max participation credit. My online classes had weekly black board chat and forums that kept me writing all the time to receive participation credits.



You've got time to do a quick scan of the front, but the real focus is on the bottom of the front and the stuff on the back. You'd be surprised how many folks bury stuff up top in the front. MIght get lucky and catch a key word in the scan, but if not, you're out of luck. Actually noticed an AF-level functional award in the middle of the job performance section. Nothing to make it stand out, it was just a casual statement.


Well I'm screwed. I have a PME award buried in block 4 of an old EPR. Oh well. Not like I was gonna make it anyway lol.

Chief_KO
07-30-2013, 12:00 PM
Well I'm screwed. I have a PME award buried in block 4 of an old EPR. Oh well. Not like I was gonna make it anyway lol.

That's why it's so important to include awards in a decoration citation, ALL citations are in your promotion folder.

20+Years
07-30-2013, 12:46 PM
Gonna concur on this one. My brick and mortar classes usually required me to show up, sit and the back of the room and rarely say anything to anyone for max participation credit. My online classes had weekly black board chat and forums that kept me writing all the time to receive participation credits.

Lol... calm down guys, we were not saying online schooling is easier. I have done my 20 page papers during my MA, I know how tough it can be. We were merely speaking of the fact that in the older days being in the classroom could limit your time on the job. Classes would often run at 11:00 AM or 5:00 PM. With a schedule like that, you have to ensure to leave work to be at school. That was not always looked upon kindly, and someone with an advanced degree would have been considered to have placed a priority on school over work.

Thank goodness, due to online classes, that stigma has been going away.

CrustySMSgt
07-30-2013, 12:49 PM
That's why it's so important to include awards in a decoration citation, ALL citations are in your promotion folder.

+1!!


Well I'm screwed. I have a PME award buried in block 4 of an old EPR. Oh well. Not like I was gonna make it anyway lol.

I scanned for key words... not a specific list, more like a subconscious database... lol
Hard to explain, but once you do it for a day or two you get pretty good at scanning a record and coming up with the same thign the other 2 folks got. So it may be noticed, just better to make it easy to be sure!

imported_DannyJ
07-30-2013, 01:55 PM
All great info! Won't be even close to eligible for a good while, but I like to have my sh*t together a long time before any requirement. I still believe off duty education should NOT be allowed on EPRs. There simply should be a block or form that says education levels completed with boxes to check. I've been using my completed BBA education for the betterment of the AF for years but Johnny next to me, that hasn't even completed his CCAF, looks like a gem because he completed 6 credit hours towards his CCAF, while maintaining a perfect 4.0 GPA (despite the fact they were CLEPs and don't give credit towards a GPA).

Note: I haven't given up on education. I just believe in using the time I have in the AF to learn stuff that applies to what I do (IE functionally related sh*t that doesn't offer college credit) rather than taking some botany courses at the local community college to compete for awards.

raustin0017
07-30-2013, 02:44 PM
The way you explain it sounds like even more justification as to why something like an advanced degree should be on the evaluation brief. Given the very limited time the board has per record, why would we not already have it listed in plain view what the highest level of education is?...instead making the board go try and find it and potentially missing it. The DVB is already a document that exists...it's not like they would even have to create something new.

So what you told me sort of confirms my concerns...the board could potentially miss seeing that someone has an advanced degree if they only look at the backsides of performance reports and the degree is mentioned on the front.

My 2-cents: The three member panel who will score your records are very aware of how EPRs are written. If the data about advanced degree is listed.....it is noticed and applied to their overall score. Something to note is the way bullets are written. Here are two examples:
- Hungry for knowledge; earned 3 credit hours towards B.S. degree...sets great example
- Graduated w/4.0! Finished Aeronautical Science undergrad w/Embry Riddle Aero University...M.S. next

Which one "Pops-off" the page?

Absinthe Anecdote
07-30-2013, 02:52 PM
All great info! Won't be even close to eligible for a good while, but I like to have my sh*t together a long time before any requirement. I still believe off duty education should NOT be allowed on EPRs. There simply should be a block or form that says education levels completed with boxes to check. I've been using my completed BBA education for the betterment of the AF for years but Johnny next to me, that hasn't even completed his CCAF, looks like a gem because he completed 6 credit hours towards his CCAF, while maintaining a perfect 4.0 GPA (despite the fact they were CLEPs and don't give credit towards a GPA).

Note: I haven't given up on education. I just believe in using the time I have in the AF to learn stuff that applies to what I do (IE functionally related sh*t that doesn't offer college credit) rather than taking some botany courses at the local community college to compete for awards.

Don't knock botany courses! You can use that knowledge to fly rings around the other bake sale divas by making killer flower arrangements for unit functions.

Once I created this gigantic center piece arrangement for a dining out! I had it placed on the table of a rival MSgt and it literally blocked his view of the head table. Plus, since I had taken botany, I knew which type of flowers maintained active pollen production after harvesting, so his allergies would act up.

His eyes were bloodshot and watery during the entire event. Somehow a rumor got started that he had too much to drink.

Knowledge is power, even knowledge about flowers.

Big Blue
12-31-2013, 04:24 AM
Was talking with a co worker today who was #1 non selectee last year and he was saying how he was excited about his chances this year. He mentioned strats and said that if you get one it will "normally" move you to the next grouping(7.5 pts). What say you those in the know? It's my first year with one so that would be sweet if that is the case!

VCO
12-31-2013, 10:48 AM
Was talking with a co worker today who was #1 non selectee last year and he was saying how he was excited about his chances this year. He mentioned strats and said that if you get one it will "normally" move you to the next grouping(7.5 pts). What say you those in the know? It's my first year with one so that would be sweet if that is the case!

I don't know the answer to your question. This is my first year out, so I'm curious to see where I land. I did pick up a WG strat, so am hoping I do well. I'm curious to see how the new PDG affects the average tests scores. I'm betting they drop. The new book seemed to have a bunch of new stuff crammed into it, and to top it off, it had a lot of errors/confusing BS.

Good luck to you.

Chief_KO
12-31-2013, 11:17 AM
A stratification is just one more discriminator (awards being another) to separate this firewall 5 EPR from all the other firewall 5 EPRs. I was hoping that the latest EPR change would eliminate stratification statements. AF tried to do it a while back, allowing strats only for promotion eligible MSgts & SMSgts and mandating that each rater may only strat within his/her span of control. No more 2LT's saying "Best MSgt I've seen".
The process is time consuming (time wasting) for those involved (Chiefs/Commanders) and is many times viewed as part of the "good ol' boy" system.
Rule of thumb: Your board score should remain the same or go up each time...based upon sustained/improved/expanded performance, increased responsibilities & experience. Too often MSgt X's board score goes up and he/she focuses on "my strat made the difference" or "my duty title was the kicker", when in reality the score went up as a result of EPR report as a whole.
Unlike the OPR/PRF process which is basically a go/no-go, promote/definitely promote system, the EPR (by design) includes stratification in the form of the front side markings and the rating system. Unfortunately within 3 years of its implementation rampant inflation & white-space fever once again became the norm.
Stratified Airmen get promoted right along with those that were not stratified; and many #1 strats don't get promoted. It is NOT a DP (Definite Promote) like the O world, although most officers view it that way.

DWWSWWD
12-31-2013, 02:06 PM
Rule of thumb: Your board score should remain the same or go up each time...based upon sustained/improved/expanded performance, increased responsibilities & experience. I know you know what you're trying to say but I need to clarify here because so many people get all wrapped up about what you're saying. Hard chargers, pay attention. Your board score from one year to the next is irrelevant. Your STANDING is what's important. Your board score may very well drop from one year to the next but your standing should move up if you are progressing as you should, for all the reasons that KO listed here. The people that graded you last year are not the same ones looking at you this year. They grade differently but are comparing you against your peers. Points change, your performance relative to your peers should be reflected consistently.

Big Blue
12-31-2013, 03:52 PM
I don't know the answer to your question. This is my first year out, so I'm curious to see where I land. I did pick up a WG strat, so am hoping I do well. I'm curious to see how the new PDG affects the average tests scores. I'm betting they drop. The new book seemed to have a bunch of new stuff crammed into it, and to top it off, it had a lot of errors/confusing BS.

Good luck to you.
I agree with your assessment of the test. Studied harder than ever this cycle and still not sure what to make of that test so also think scores will drop. Good luck to you as well!

Big Blue
12-31-2013, 04:30 PM
I know you know what you're trying to say but I need to clarify here because so many people get all wrapped up about what you're saying. Hard chargers, pay attention. Your board score from one year to the next is irrelevant. Your STANDING is what's important. Your board score may very well drop from one year to the next but your standing should move up if you are progressing as you should, for all the reasons that KO listed here. The people that graded you last year are not the same ones looking at you this year. They grade differently but are comparing you against your peers. Points change, your performance relative to your peers should be reflected consistently.

Thanks for your answer. For myself, my "standing" was #3 non select last yr without a strat. So I guess my question would be with the strat this time, or "more improved report" this go around, than I would imagine that would put me in the target zone. Nowhere else to go but up! I know the scores change each yr but doesn't a set of records essentially stand on their own more or less if the are strong, give or take the small variance. I believe through hard work/leaders taking care of me, that I have my best overall report yet on top so hoping this is my year! Maybe I should write to mythbusters to do a show about strats, ha ha!

Big Blue
12-31-2013, 06:37 PM
Appreciate the feedback so far and forgot to wish a Happy New Year's to everyone! I'll toast to the forum later :-)

Big Blue
12-31-2013, 09:13 PM
A stratification is just one more discriminator (awards being another) to separate this firewall 5 EPR from all the other firewall 5 EPRs. I was hoping that the latest EPR change would eliminate stratification statements. AF tried to do it a while back, allowing strats only for promotion eligible MSgts & SMSgts and mandating that each rater may only strat within his/her span of control. No more 2LT's saying "Best MSgt I've seen".
The process is time consuming (time wasting) for those involved (Chiefs/Commanders) and is many times viewed as part of the "good ol' boy" system.
Rule of thumb: Your board score should remain the same or go up each time...based upon sustained/improved/expanded performance, increased responsibilities & experience. Too often MSgt X's board score goes up and he/she focuses on "my strat made the difference" or "my duty title was the kicker", when in reality the score went up as a result of EPR report as a whole.
Unlike the OPR/PRF process which is basically a go/no-go, promote/definitely promote system, the EPR (by design) includes stratification in the form of the front side markings and the rating system. Unfortunately within 3 years of its implementation rampant inflation & white-space fever once again became the norm.
Stratified Airmen get promoted right along with those that were not stratified; and many #1 strats don't get promoted. It is NOT a DP (Definite Promote) like the O world, although most officers view it that way.

Forgot to thank you Chief KO for the perspective. Happy New Years!

Chief_KO
12-31-2013, 09:15 PM
I know you know what you're trying to say but I need to clarify here because so many people get all wrapped up about what you're saying. Hard chargers, pay attention. Your board score from one year to the next is irrelevant. Your STANDING is what's important. Your board score may very well drop from one year to the next but your standing should move up if you are progressing as you should, for all the reasons that KO listed here. The people that graded you last year are not the same ones looking at you this year. They grade differently but are comparing you against your peers. Points change, your performance relative to your peers should be reflected consistently.

That's exactly what I meant...sorry for any confusion. Too many look at the raw board score, instead look at your standing, it should move up each year. And never compare board scores (or WAPS scores) with other AFSCs...totally irrelevant; although the AF Times loves running that front page story every year or so to drum up sales!

Big Blue
12-31-2013, 09:19 PM
Chief KO, could you answer my question about records on my previous post a few up? Thx!

mjt
12-31-2013, 11:41 PM
Thanks for your answer. For myself, my "standing" was #3 non select last yr without a strat. So I guess my question would be with the strat this time, or "more improved report" this go around, than I would imagine that would put me in the target zone. Nowhere else to go but up! I know the scores change each yr but doesn't a set of records essentially stand on their own more or less if the are strong, give or take the small variance. I believe through hard work/leaders taking care of me, that I have my best overall report yet on top so hoping this is my year! Maybe I should write to mythbusters to do a show about strats, ha ha!

It's all relative, you can't really view your promotion chances by looking at your records in a vacuum. Prior to scoring the current year's packages, the board reviews previous years' packages to develop consistency in scoring for that AFSC. It helps them establish a baseline of sorts during the review by identifying commonalities across all of the records. Likewise, it also helps the board recognize discriminators.

Take your strat for example. If you're in an AFSC where most SNCOs have a strat, then it may not hold as much weight to the board. Conversely, if you're the only one in your AFSC with a strat, it can send a strong message and has the potential to carry considerable weight. Taking it a step further, the more ways a board can identify you as superior to the norm, especially if it's evident across multiple EPRs, the better off you'll be. It shows the board you're sustaining superior performance rather than being just a one hit wonder, and prevents a single senior rater from significantly influencing an individual's promotion chances (though, from my observation both still happen).

That sums up what you can control. The other side of the stick is the performance of your peers, something you have no control over (and rightfully so). That's what makes trying to figure how you'll board (and your standing amongst your peers) so difficult. I really like to think, at the end of the day if you really are an excellent leader and continually attack your job with drive and passion, and take care of your people, and it is properly captured on an EPR, that you will eventually get promoted. I see several SNCOs who do not want to proceed further in rank because it will force them to move, take on greater responsibility, etc, and those who simply are not good leaders, for those that are truly deserving not have a chance at being promoted. Of course, that plays into the last part.

It's really important to accurately capture your performance on an EPR, and articulate it in way the board can understand it. There was (is?) a video on MyPERS that talks about the E8/E9 promotion process and who reviews each AFSC's records. The larger AFSC's usually have their boards reviewed/scored by their own AFSC, but there are several smaller AFSC's that don't. It goes back to basic written communication, the first thing you need to do is know your audience. Is a comptroller going to understand what a flux capacitor is (and its importance) if they've never worked with one? Probably not. But if you're able to articulate it in a way that anyone, regardless of AFSC, can understand it then you'll have a greater chance of the bullet being seen for what it really is, rather than being misinterpreted.

Best of luck!

BRUWIN
12-31-2013, 11:56 PM
Sometimes I think they take the thrown to the side folders, shuffle them a bit, and then pick a few out of the pile to get promoted...just for a laugh and to break the monotony. And I'm kind of glad they do that.

Chief_KO
01-01-2014, 01:03 AM
Thanks for your answer. For myself, my "standing" was #3 non select last yr without a strat. So I guess my question would be with the strat this time, or "more improved report" this go around, than I would imagine that would put me in the target zone. Nowhere else to go but up! I know the scores change each yr but doesn't a set of records essentially stand on their own more or less if the are strong, give or take the small variance. I believe through hard work/leaders taking care of me, that I have my best overall report yet on top so hoping this is my year! Maybe I should write to mythbusters to do a show about strats, ha ha!

IMO a record does sustain its strength and would improve if the member's performance continues at the same level or increases. Now, some will lament their situation...not supervising "a lot of Airmen", don't have "the duty title" etc. The Airman has little (no) control over their assignment, their supervisor, their duty title, etc. Now, if one finds them self in such a situation how do they demonstrate leadership? That's where other activities/organizations can help. No, not an office title...but actually demonstrated leadership.

Timing also plays a role, one that I personally wish the AF would eliminate in the new EPR system. Units play the CRO game to push a "weak" EPR farther down the stack and put a new, recent "strong" EPR on top. This opens up too much gamesmanship that pollutes and politicizes the promotion system. There are those that don't get a big award, ORI rating, etc. into their record cause of the cutoff. To make it fair (IMO) all MSgt EPRs should closeout on the PECD to SMSgt, all SMSgt EPRs closeout on the PECD to CMSgt. Also eliminate the 120 day CRO report for all Airmen.

Now having said all that...sometimes a group/wing stratifies someone too high, too early. This sets up a scenario where it will be nearly impossible for a SNCO to maintain #1,2,or 3 for multiple years. Also unfair the first sergeants to be stratified at the unit level, this should be a wing strat comparing shirt to shirt. Of course, if I were king for a day I would kill off strats all together.

Airborne
01-01-2014, 02:14 AM
Now having said all that...sometimes a group/wing stratifies someone too high, too early. This sets up a scenario where it will be nearly impossible for a SNCO to maintain #1,2,or 3 for multiple years. Also unfair the first sergeants to be stratified at the unit level, this should be a wing strat comparing shirt to shirt. Of course, if I were king for a day I would kill off strats all together.

Agreed, but then you have people that will be shirts just so they can be wing level strats. I dont agree that shirts should automatically go to wing or even group level. I know they have a demanding job, but if youre a new MSgt shirt at a small unit and your just hanging out being a sq level shirt then you should be strat'd at a comparable level. If youre a MSgt promotable at the Wg MX unit and doing bake sales (yeh yeh :veryhappy:) and habitat for humanity round ups and the top three president then get strat'd at wing level. But yes at the end of the day strats should be eliminated.

DWWSWWD
01-01-2014, 05:09 PM
First Sergeants absolutely should not be stratified with the regular sled dogs. For you youngsters, it hasn't been very long that this was the case. Shirts were not stratified outside of the group of Shirts. AF threw them in the mix and then they started running bake sales and running for positions on the Top 3 council. Ridiculous. It's beneath the position and could cause a SNCO in an organization to not seek help for fear the Shirt will drop a word to the CC that maybe this isn't your number one guy.

Big Blue - In my worthless, anonymous, internet Chief opinion, if you were #3 non-select last year, added a strat and did your part, there is no reason you will not get promoted this year. Good luck to you.

BOSS302
01-01-2014, 05:13 PM
First Sergeants absolutely should not be stratified with the regular sled dogs. For you youngsters, it hasn't been very long that this was the case. Shirts were not stratified outside of the group of Shirts. AF threw them in the mix and then they started running bake sales and running for positions on the Top 3 council. Ridiculous. It's beneath the position and could cause a SNCO in an organization to not seek help for fear the Shirt will drop a word to the CC that maybe this isn't your number one guy.

Big Blue - In my worthless, anonymous, internet Chief opinion, if you were #3 non-select last year, added a strat and did your part, there is no reason you will not get promoted this year. Good luck to you.

I experienced a 1st Sgt like this once. It was fucking weird having a 1st Sgt soliciting volunteers for weekly BBQs and other typical private org stuff. If I felt that way as a SSgt, I wonder what the SNCOs were thinking.

Big Blue
01-01-2014, 06:47 PM
First Sergeants absolutely should not be stratified with the regular sled dogs. For you youngsters, it hasn't been very long that this was the case. Shirts were not stratified outside of the group of Shirts. AF threw them in the mix and then they started running bake sales and running for positions on the Top 3 council. Ridiculous. It's beneath the position and could cause a SNCO in an organization to not seek help for fear the Shirt will drop a word to the CC that maybe this isn't your number one guy.

Big Blue - In my worthless, anonymous, internet Chief opinion, if you were #3 non-select last year, added a strat and did your part, there is no reason you will not get promoted this year. Good luck to you.

Thx for the vote of confidence..your words are definitely appreciated on here by many! I absolutely concur with your statement about shirt talking with CC. I sat in the shirt slot for a sqdn not authorized a diamond wearing one and you have considerable input to the man behind closed doors. I know the different CC's(Sq/Gp) wanted my personal opinion/assessment and someone that was not above board could plant a seed if they chose to. I know a shirt was our #1 Wing strat this yr...DEFINITELY don't belong in the mix with the rest of the folks who bring it everyday!

Max Power
01-01-2014, 07:08 PM
Ah, that time of year again. Let the butt sharkery games begin.

Big Blue
01-01-2014, 09:56 PM
Ah, that time of year again. Let the butt sharkery games begin.

That term may get you marked down on the new Epr...Air Power! I mean...Organizational Climate!

Chief_KO
01-01-2014, 10:02 PM
What I meant by First Sergeant strats at the wing, I meant that they should only be stratified against the other first sergeants. I think it is not fair to the first sergeant and not fair to the other MSgts/SMSgts to include the 8Fs into the same MSgt/SMSgt strat pool.

Big Blue
01-01-2014, 10:06 PM
What I meant by First Sergeant strats at the wing, I meant that they should only be stratified against the other first sergeants. I think it is not fair to the first sergeant and not fair to the other MSgts/SMSgts to include the 8Fs into the same MSgt/SMSgt strat pool.

What was the rationale given that they should be included back with the rest?

Chief_KO
01-01-2014, 10:17 PM
What was the rationale given that they should be included back with the rest?
Previously there was no stratification guidance and virtually everyone was getting stratified..."my number 1 SrA!"
So, initial effort was to ban stratification statements totally...BUT, there were a couple of AFSC communities within the enlisted ranks that lobbied hard to keep strat statements; so the AF acquiesced.
The change made was to eliminate all stratification statements for everyone BUT TIS/TIG eligible MSgt/SMSgts, and that each rater may only stratify within his/her span of control and it must be a straight #x of x statement, no more % strats, AFSC strats, "best I've seen", etc. The change threw the 8F into the same strat gene pool (mistake IMO).

DWWSWWD
01-01-2014, 10:41 PM
What was the rationale given that they should be included back with the rest? A First Sergeant friend of mine was whining about it being tough to get promoted and explained it like this. He said that if he wins first sergeant of the year for the wing, admittedly a very tough thing to do, that there would be 65 other first sergeants with the same bullet on their EPR, Air Force wide. I told him to quit whining and go back to his career field. The Air Force, probably via a high level CCM who had been a shirt for 10 years, decided to throw them in with everyone else. Results were predictable and immediate as I explained before.

Big Blue
01-01-2014, 11:09 PM
A First Sergeant friend of mine was whining about it being tough to get promoted and explained it like this. He said that if he wins first sergeant of the year for the wing, admittedly a very tough thing to do, that there would be 65 other first sergeants with the same bullet on their EPR, Air Force wide. I told him to quit whining and go back to his career field. The Air Force, probably via a high level CCM who had been a shirt for 10 years, decided to throw them in with everyone else. Results were predictable and immediate as I explained before.

Appreciate the answer. Funny you mention that, we recently had a shirt that was Shirt of the Yr, stratted within the top 3 spots at Wg and still didn't get promoted. Yes, head back to their original career field if promotion is their priority!

Chief_KO
01-02-2014, 12:44 AM
A First Sergeant friend of mine was whining about it being tough to get promoted and explained it like this. He said that if he wins first sergeant of the year for the wing, admittedly a very tough thing to do, that there would be 65 other first sergeants with the same bullet on their EPR, Air Force wide. I told him to quit whining and go back to his career field. The Air Force, probably via a high level CCM who had been a shirt for 10 years, decided to throw them in with everyone else. Results were predictable and immediate as I explained before.

If I had a nickel for everytime I heard an 8F complain about his/her board score and promotion stagnation I'd buy a 2014 Cadillac CTS with about 25,000 rolls of nickels.

Big Blue
01-03-2014, 01:12 AM
Kind of Ironic the last guy to leave the testing room this year was a shirt. He had just told me prior to testing that he resigned up to do shirt for another tour so we'll see. He might be adding to your roll of nickels toward your Cadillac Chief!

Brewhound
01-03-2014, 01:44 PM
There is a good reason why 8F`s don't go back to the career field. Where else as a MSGt are you going to have that much atonomy and free rain and only have two people you have to answer too. The CC and the Command Chief are the only guys you have to please. Thats it! You can spend all day helping folks out and getting the back stage pass into every support agency on base. Why the hell would you want to go back to your career field be just another MSgt grinding it out worrying about the mission and the PP slides or how you are going to rig the numbers to make it look like everything is great and only getting better.Plus, your the guy that has been out of the AFSC for 4-5 years, so you know the other SNCO`s are really going to appreciate that…hahahahahha. YOUR GONNA GET THE TIP PUT IN DOWN TO THE BASE OF THE SHAFT. Or you can believe that lie that they will appreciate that breath of knowledge you bring to the career field. Unless of course you want that SMSgt stripe that bad. Then you will bite the bullet and go back, take the abuse for year or two and take the 82-88% chance you have at making it. They shouldn't complain though..They know why they don't go back. Also it is really funny how if they do go back and make Senior most of them apply to go right back to the 8F AFSC…I wonder why….Cause they like helping people..LOL!!!!!!!!

Big Blue
01-03-2014, 10:46 PM
^^ Cracking me up..not that it isn't the truth. Hoping that strat helps push me out of the MSgt Category because I just heard my name is on a list due to AFSC overage. I know they will go after the deadwood first and admittedly some need to hang it up anyways. I still have fire in the belly and ready to bring it!