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Tak
02-18-2012, 03:33 PM
Can't think of many privileges. These days, rhip use could equal meo or ig.

I remember when the pfe mentioned rhip many years ago.

JD2780
02-18-2012, 03:37 PM
parking spots, DUI's, adultery.

If you're a Sr O then you're good in both depts. Heck I've seen in some cases where the SNCO got away with a DUI. 2 months later a SSgt gets DUI and gets an article 15. Not saying the SSgt didnt deserve it, in my opinion it should've been reduction in rank, and 60 days additional duty including 12hr days. The SNCO didnt get anything.

Tak
02-18-2012, 03:39 PM
What rhip do snco's have?

JD2780
02-18-2012, 03:41 PM
Parking spots. Sq Sup, Ops Sup, 1st Sgt, and less likely to have the book thrown at them than the Jr enlisted. I might be dependant upon the units as well. Just my personal experience.

STL7997
02-18-2012, 03:43 PM
What rhip do snco's have?

The first to shake an award winners hand and then stand behind them in the picture.

Tak
02-18-2012, 03:46 PM
I think at X years sncos shouldn't need to take X training/cbts any longer.

71Fish
02-18-2012, 05:13 PM
THe only liberty I can think of that I take is never answering the office phone. I'll answer the one that rings on my desk, but not the common office phone.

Shrike
02-18-2012, 05:58 PM
I had my own room on my last deployment.

VFFSSGT
02-18-2012, 06:44 PM
Can't think of many privileges. These days, rhip use could equal meo or ig.

I remember when the pfe mentioned rhip many years ago.

Wow, it seems it's really not there anymore...just did key word search for privileges and RHIP and nothing...

Airborne
02-18-2012, 06:48 PM
Not having to double billet on TDY's...depending on your unit, mission, etc. If youre in the navy you get to wear khakis. Thats all I can come up with.

Tak
02-18-2012, 06:56 PM
I would like to hear what navy, army, marines get as over e-7 for privileges.
I have seen the navy have a huge difference when becoming chief (e-7)

ScarlettGTO
02-18-2012, 07:24 PM
I would like to hear what navy, army, marines get as over e-7 for privileges.
I have seen the navy have a huge difference when becoming chief (e-7)

The get the privilege of their junior enlisted standing up when they enter a room and have them standing when they speak to them. I've seen entire rooms jump up when a Marine or Army E-7 comes in the room. I am sure Navy is the same way. An AF E-7 can walk all the way through a day room of airmen before he/she gets noticed.

USMC0341
02-18-2012, 07:44 PM
The get the privilege of their junior enlisted standing up when they enter a room and have them standing when they speak to them. I've seen entire rooms jump up when a Marine or Army E-7 comes in the room. I am sure Navy is the same way. An AF E-7 can walk all the way through a day room of airmen before he/she gets noticed.

True, I never let me guys sit on their ass and address any NCO/SNCO, I expected respect and I gave it to others to, but that is just our environment.

RHIP- i got more sleep in the field. more leeway with getting time to take care of personal matters while on duty. Let me train my guys and not meddle too much.

BENDER56
02-18-2012, 09:53 PM
You can file away those CFETPs.

Stang5150
02-18-2012, 11:16 PM
You can file away those CFETPs.



:whoo :thumb

ART
02-18-2012, 11:50 PM
You can file away those CFETPs.

Not everywhere.

AFRC requires all E-7 and below who will EVER touch equipment maintain their CFETP (TBA). We have E-8's with training records.

Greg
02-18-2012, 11:50 PM
The get the privilege of their junior enlisted standing up when they enter a room and have them standing when they speak to them. I've seen entire rooms jump up when a Marine or Army E-7 comes in the room. I am sure Navy is the same way. An AF E-7 can walk all the way through a day room of airmen before he/she gets noticed.

Back in the day, when the E-7/Chief Petty Officer entered the space/compartment and you were not busy, with obvious progress, well...your working hours were EXTENDED!

So, yes, there was jumping involved.

BENDER56
02-19-2012, 04:43 PM
Not everywhere.

AFRC requires all E-7 and below who will EVER touch equipment maintain their CFETP (TBA). We have E-8's with training records.

I was talking about the real Air Force.

<Ducks and runs>

:behindsofa

ART
02-19-2012, 04:46 PM
I was talking about the real Air Force.

<Ducks and runs>

:behindsofa


No need to duck and run. I'm in agreement.

JD2780
02-19-2012, 09:57 PM
As for having roommates during TDYs. I dont really care. Currently even as an E-5 we dont get roommates. I dont care though. If my squadron came down and said we now need to double up in rooms, so be it. Its a place to sleep and write gradesheets. I dont care.

We actually had a SrA get pissed he had a roommated and asked our Sq sup to have it changed. Our sup just walked over to us and asked to handle it. We basically laughed at him in his face, told him to get used to it because now hes staying in a bunkroom at Ft Irwin for field week!!!

MACHINE666
02-19-2012, 10:41 PM
Well, the RHIP (Red Hot Indian Peppers) is a progressive tribute band from Calcutta who play songs by the RHCP using sitars as their preferred instrument! They can really tear it up when they do a cover of "Under the Bridge" followed by "Californication"!


:D :D :D :D :D

sandsjames
02-20-2012, 06:51 PM
Can't think of many privileges. These days, rhip use could equal meo or ig.

I remember when the pfe mentioned rhip many years ago.

Last week I was sent out to pick weeds in front of the building. Personally, I don't mind. I'll pick weeds, mop floors, etc...all day long for TSgt pay. However, it's something that NEVER would have happened 15 years ago. As has been mentioned, TSgt is the new SrA, except that in addition to doing details along with everyone else, we also have to run a shop.

Tak
02-20-2012, 07:14 PM
With AF numbers down, leaders don't care if its an e-1 or e-7
Picking twigs, as long as it gets done. It's seen now as leading
From the front, but i see it as shortening the distance between
Ranks. Flattening chain of command, weakening nco and snco
Authority.

Shrike
02-20-2012, 10:46 PM
With AF numbers down, leaders don't care if its an e-1 or e-7
Picking twigs, as long as it gets done. It's seen now as leading
From the front, but i see it as shortening the distance between
Ranks. Flattening chain of command, weakening nco and snco
Authority.

I got piss tested last week and the guy on sausage-watching detail was a butter bar.

SENDBILLMONEY
02-20-2012, 10:56 PM
I got piss tested last week and the guy on sausage-watching detail was a butter bar.

My wife and I were discussing those days. Some of our coworkers would get really upset about being interrupted when that "this is the orderly room, we need you to come sign something ... no, I can't tell you what" call came. I figured I was getting paid good money to give a couple of autographs or initials, drink water, get a full bladder and pee for an audience. You have to actually be attractive to get paid E-7 pay for those tasks in the civilian world.

FLAPS
02-20-2012, 11:00 PM
I got piss tested last week and the guy on sausage-watching detail was a butter bar.

I was thinking, now that DADT is history, perhaps they should ask for volunteers for this duty. Surely there are plenty of he/shes out there who would love to spend all day visually measuring weiners.

Capt Alfredo
02-22-2012, 01:57 AM
I got piss tested last week and the guy on sausage-watching detail was a butter bar.

Last time I got tested it was a graduated squadron commander (lt col). Welcome to staff duty...or is it doody?

imported_oih82w8
02-22-2012, 04:14 AM
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b282/chrizten01/caddyshack-doody.jpg

20+Years
02-22-2012, 10:42 AM
RHIP?

At the SNCO ranks it somewhat still exists. It is often replaced with terms such as "delegation" or "empowerment". If I don't feel like doing something, someone else is getting it :shocked. If I want to take care of personal business or whatever, no one asks me where I'm going, or where I was. It's either RHIP, or my give-a-shits is broken.

iReddit
02-22-2012, 02:46 PM
Rank has many privileges. As a SNCO, do whatever it takes to get the job done and make life easier for you and those around you. Don’t ask for permission, take the initiative.

Now, in my younger days as an Airman, there were very few of us around. I was the one, the hulking beast I am, I was always called upon to move secure safes, furniture, etc. At one period, my squadron seemed to have office moves every two weeks. Well, I got tired to all the hassle – it’s like the one friend with the pickup truck, so I started effing things up on purpose.

What to do…had the safe custodian escort me moving a safe, I noticed that the thing was unlocked. Deadlifting this thing up a flight of stairs, (custodian at the bottom), I released the safety strap and pulled at an odd angle, sending the thing downward, releasing all the contents and checking the reflexes of dude at the bottom. After having to get the thing reinventoried and recertified, and write-ups for security and safety, I never had to move safes again.

One day, I was called to replace the long cancer-filled fluorescent lightbulbs in one office – being the lowest ranking, plus tall. Well, someone saw this and asked that I replace a few bulbs in that office. Next thing you know, everyone needed new bulbs, and I’d be doing this for about a week. I had enough and went to one of our O-6’s office. He had a hot temper. Once I had to help repair a large oak desk that he flipped over because I dropped a safe in his office (it was closed and locked, just had to pick it back up). Well, he wasn’t around, so I took our two bulbs right over his desk and dropped them, not knowing they’d shatter as much as they did. The whole office filled with toxic fumes. I tracked boot prints all theway down the hall, taking my time to find a broom and dust pan. He got back to his office before I did. I got an ear full, but never had to do such things again unless it was a full squadron type event.

Calmo70
02-22-2012, 09:42 PM
Don't forget, accordingly to our friend CORNY, that after you retire you definitely get status accordingly to how long you've been retired. And, your active duty rank don't even matter anymore (that part I agree with). Just your LORHIP (Length of Retirement Has Its Priviledges) status.

RobotChicken
07-28-2013, 05:17 AM
http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/0cb/eb7/347/resized/chairforce-meme-generator-the-navy-doing-the-airforces-job-since-1947-6b1468.jpg?1342108684.jpg

"And STILL have the 'AF in their 6'!" (And we 'TAKe' our bases and golf courses with us! PT? On the Flight Deck 24/7)

LogDog
07-28-2013, 08:18 PM
I had my own room on my last deployment.
That's probably the best benefit of RHIP. When I was PCSing from Cannon as a MSgt to Osan AB, I stayed my last couple of days on Cannon in Billeting. I was expecting a single, small room but what I got was a suite.

On TDYs, as a SNCO, I got my own room and didn't have to bother with a roommate or share a common kitchen or bath. While deployed to Zagreb, Croatia, I had my own room at the Sheraton.

While at McClellan AFB, I went TDY to rewrite our career field's SKT at Randolph AFB. Even though we were closing the base and funding for TDY was limited I didn't even have to request permission for a rental car. Our resource manager told me he was authorizing me a car.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
07-28-2013, 10:17 PM
"And STILL have the 'AF in their 6'!" (And we 'TAKe' our bases and golf courses with us! PT? On the Flight Deck 24/7)

Love that Navy B-2 leading that flight!

Chief_KO
07-29-2013, 01:46 AM
RHIP, Robins AFB circa 1987: SSgt_KO got the top bunk in his dorm room. Not sure if it was RHIP, the other SSgt was already there and had the bottom bunk. That's right kiddies, SSgts in the dorms, in CONUS, with roommate and bunk beds! Oh, and we shared the bathroom with the other 2 guys next door. Later I got to move into a single room, half the size but at least no more roommate. And just one short year later, my name came up on the BAH list and I got to move into an apartment off base, 6 years TIS, 2 years TIG.

RobotChicken
07-29-2013, 10:35 AM
Love that Navy B-2 leading that flight!

"Was'nt leading....being 'escorted' out of the area with 'restraint'! You are just sore cause the THE NAVY landed and launched the C-130F (#149798) off a Carriers Deck!" (that is like a big runway at sea)

Sergeant eNYgma
07-30-2013, 04:23 PM
Haven't seen much of that since making the jump to SSgt from SrA. I noticed I have slightly more freedom in how I complete tasks and am not as closely watched. Also can cut subordinates early for the day which I try to do often...aside from that not much different here. Should I become and SNCO one day (Here's hoping) I'll see what the difference in the next tier is.

Sergeant eNYgma
07-30-2013, 05:09 PM
When I went to ssgt at a joint cmd, everyone started calling me sarge...when they
Heard ssgt, some thought it was like a TSgt other service equiv. It was enjoyable
To see so much respect for a sergeant. I had been in 7 years at that point.
Do you feel weird maybe being looked at differently from Airman, like
You are now "the man"?

Not really tbh, most times I actually feel like a SrA. For example we had a beach event last week but I wasn't going to attend wanted to catch up on work (You were there or at work, you know the drill) anyway my supe a TSgt brought me a ticket. She tells me "You're going" and I'm like "WTF, thanks"?

Pissed me off (And I respect her alot). Thought I'm a frikkin SSgt but can't make a simple decision as to if I'll attend an event like this? Times like that make me think yeah SrA with bigger paycheck but just recently I've been told my first troop is coming in and I'm helping my buddys troop get situated so I actually feel important...like I'm doing extra shit as I should be.

I don't feel like the man yet but I always thought other services respected their E5 more than us...maybe just in my little corner of the AF....

Rusty Jones
07-30-2013, 05:26 PM
The get the privilege of their junior enlisted standing up when they enter a room and have them standing when they speak to them. I've seen entire rooms jump up when a Marine or Army E-7 comes in the room. I am sure Navy is the same way. An AF E-7 can walk all the way through a day room of airmen before he/she gets noticed.

No, it's not. Only the CO of the ship gets that honor. I don't think most Airmen understand... we're more like you, less like Soldiers or Marines.


Not really tbh, most times I actually feel like a SrA. For example we had a beach event last week but I wasn't going to attend wanted to catch up on work (You were there or at work, you know the drill) anyway my supe a TSgt brought me a ticket. She tells me "You're going" and I'm like "WTF, thanks"?

Pissed me off (And I respect her alot). Thought I'm a frikkin SSgt but can't make a simple decision as to if I'll attend an event like this? Times like that make me think yeah SrA with bigger paycheck but just recently I've been told my first troop is coming in and I'm helping my buddys troop get situated so I actually feel important...like I'm doing extra shit as I should be.

I don't feel like the man yet but I always thought other services respected their E5 more than us...maybe just in my little corner of the AF....

I can't speak for the Army and Marine Corps, but it's not much different in the Navy.

I remember back in 2003, when I had made PO2. My days of doing sweepers and and most working parties were over. I went to shore duty in 2005; made PO1 in 2008, and returned to sea duty in 2009. They called sweepers over the 1MC. I stayed at my desk and kept working. My LCPO walks in and asks me why I'm not out there doing sweepers. I told him, "Because I'm a First Class Petty Officer, THAT'S why!"

I got schooled quick, and less than two minutes later, I was right out there in the P-way sweeping with the Seamen. As I walk to the cleaning gear locker for more supplies, there were other PO1's out there doing sweepers too. I thought I was in the twilight zone.

And I think that this is part of why everything is going to shit.

Without privileges that come with rank, your juniors see you as their equals; and if they see you as their equals, then your ability to lead them has been severely undermined.

Sergeant eNYgma
07-30-2013, 05:36 PM
No, it's not. Only the CO of the ship gets that honor. I don't think most Airmen understand... we're more like you, less like Soldiers or Marines.



I can't speak for the Army and Marine Corps, but it's not much different in the Navy.

I remember back in 2003, when I had made PO2. My days of doing sweepers and and most working parties were over. I went to shore duty in 2005; made PO1 in 2008, and returned to sea duty in 2009. They called sweepers over the 1MC. I stayed at my desk and kept working. My LCPO walks in and asks me why I'm not out there doing sweepers. I told him, "Because I'm a First Class Petty Officer, THAT'S why!"

I got schooled quick, and less than two minutes later, I was right out there in the P-way sweeping with the Seamen. As I walk to the cleaning gear locker for more supplies, there were other PO1's out there doing sweepers too. I thought I was in the twilight zone.

And I think that this is part of why everything is going to shit.

Without privileges that come with rank, your juniors see you as their equals; and if they see you as their equals, then your ability to lead them has been severely undermined.

I can agree with that, but my personality would be to go out there anyway to help get the shit over with so we can get back to work (Maybe I need to work on that I guess) but things like that happen I tend to just jump in and lead the shit.But not having to I guess it's another thing you aspire to when you put on extra rank...I'll eb a SSgt for a minute so...

Sergeant eNYgma
07-30-2013, 05:39 PM
Classic AF, they make going to the state fair here on military appreciation day
An Alternate Duty Location.

My advice, always carry yourself one rank above the one you hold.
When your gut says no, encourage mouth to follow suite.

Yeah I had the new troop next to me so I didnt want to make a big fuss over it in front of him just took the ticket and thanked my supe (And I actually had an ok time at the event).

I'm a work in progress...

Sergeant eNYgma
07-30-2013, 06:14 PM
You refer to TSgt as supe?

I dont call her "supe" was just saying my supervisor.

Sergeant eNYgma
07-30-2013, 07:13 PM
I gotya, old days Tsgts could be superintendents.

Wow, really? Things are definitely different now....

LogDog
07-30-2013, 08:04 PM
I gotya, old days Tsgts could be superintendents.
Those must have been the really old days. I never saw or heard of a TSgt being called a superintendent. I know in the late 80s and early 90s there was a perception in the medical AFSCs that if you were in a superintendent's billet then your job title was "superintendent." But unless you held a 9-level in your AFSC then it didn't matter what rank you were, you just weren't a superintendent.

Maybe it was different in other career fields.

LogDog
07-30-2013, 08:27 PM
Yes, I knew a TSgt superintendent in services circa 2005/06, then New 36-2618 came out.
Thanks for the reference. In looking at it I saw this under the title of Superintendent:


7.2.7. Superintendent. Used for SNCOs in charge of group- or wing-level functions, or in a
squadron when having either oversight of functions within other squadrons or within the same
squadron (for example, Aircraft Maintenance Unit Superintendent and Command Post
Superintendent). Only SNCOs will hold the duty title of Superintendent.

From the above, it looks like only a MSgt, SMSgt, or CMSgt can be a Superintendent.

LogDog
07-30-2013, 08:38 PM
Yep, didn't use to say that. Also used to see ANCOIC.
I retired in early 2003 so I know some things have changed. I remember the duty titles being a big deal because people would be in a section and try to get their duty title to be something they really weren't. Example, a TSgt wanted to be called a superintendent of his section which consisted of 4 people. Using his logic then our flight would have had about 7 superintendents and the most any one would have under them would be 6 people. They were trying to make their records look good for awards or later for the SMSgt Records Board.

20+Years
07-30-2013, 09:35 PM
Predessedor to the triple threat.

:banghead:

DWWSWWD
07-30-2013, 11:39 PM
I knew a SMSgt that used to answer the phone, "Chief XXX." He said since he was the fire Chief that was his title and he could do it. One day the Command Chief called him..... Looking back, I'm pretty sure someone put him up to it. That one slipped through the cracks my brothers and sisters. He was a real Chief for a bit but is now safely retired.

Measure Man
07-30-2013, 11:55 PM
I knew a SMSgt that used to answer the phone, "Chief XXX." He said since he was the fire Chief that was his title and he could do it. One day the Command Chief called him..... Looking back, I'm pretty sure someone put him up to it. That one slipped through the cracks my brothers and sisters. He was a real Chief for a bit but is now safely retired.

When I was a young Airman, we had a SMSgt that everyone called Chief because he was the "Branch Chief."

It was really weird...I don't think he ever asked to be called that, but everyone did it.

Then he retired and we got a new SMSgt in...first guy that called him Chief was set straight and it never happened again...well until that guy actually did make Chief.

DWWSWWD
07-31-2013, 12:44 AM
When I was a young Airman, we had a SMSgt that everyone called Chief because he was the "Branch Chief."

It was really weird...I don't think he ever asked to be called that, but everyone did it.

Then he retired and we got a new SMSgt in...first guy that called him Chief was set straight and it never happened again...well until that guy actually did make Chief.

Definitely weird. I was never comfortable with people calling me Chief when I had a line number. It was a big deal to me. Asked folks to just wait for it.

Ripcord
07-31-2013, 01:27 AM
I got schooled quick, and less than two minutes later, I was right out there in the P-way sweeping with the Seamen. As I walk to the cleaning gear locker for more supplies, there were other PO1's out there doing sweepers too. I thought I was in the twilight zone.

And I think that this is part of why everything is going to shit.

Without privileges that come with rank, your juniors see you as their equals; and if they see you as their equals, then your ability to lead them has been severely undermined.

A PO1 is an E6 correct? So TSgt in the AF.

My experience in the AF is that the higher you go the MORE your job is about the people below you and less about you. Every great Chief I've ever met in the AF embodies this simple tenet.

A servant leader is one that is not afraid of or above schlingin' mud in the trenches with his/her people and takes every opportunity to do so. Earning the respect of your subordinates is hard but far more effective then forcing your authority on someone. It's the whole "do as I say not as I do" mentality that kills a team faster then you can blink and makes life miserable for all. If your people know you are willing to do anything you ask them to do your credibility and their loyalty will be through the roof.

Rank does have its privileges but rubbing those in a subordinate's face is not one of them...

Rusty Jones
07-31-2013, 03:30 AM
A PO1 is an E6 correct? So TSgt in the AF.

My experience in the AF is that the higher you go the MORE your job is about the people below you and less about you. Every great Chief I've ever met in the AF embodies this simple tenet.

A servant leader is one that is not afraid of or above schlingin' mud in the trenches with his/her people and takes every opportunity to do so. Earning the respect of your subordinates is hard but far more effective then forcing your authority on someone. It's the whole "do as I say not as I do" mentality that kills a team faster then you can blink and makes life miserable for all. If your people know you are willing to do anything you ask them to do your credibility and their loyalty will be through the roof.

Rank does have its privileges but rubbing those in a subordinate's face is not one of them...

Here's the issue I have with your scenario:

First, "getting down and dirty" with your guys of your own volition is one thing; but even then, it shouldn't be done all the time - at least not to the point where your troops expect you to do it.

Secondly, your scenario is just that - doing it of your own volition. What I'm talking about, is the fact that we got out there and cleaned because we HAD to; everyone all the way down to E1 knew it.

When you do it because it's your own choice, you can actually maintain your visibility as a leader. However, when you're "put" to work along with your junior guys buy someone senior to you; well... your junior guys see you as being "down with the struggle."

Choosing to do it and being required to do it each have totally different effects.

Ripcord
08-02-2013, 02:25 AM
Here's the issue I have with your scenario:

First, "getting down and dirty" with your guys of your own volition is one thing; but even then, it shouldn't be done all the time - at least not to the point where your troops expect you to do it.

Secondly, your scenario is just that - doing it of your own volition. What I'm talking about, is the fact that we got out there and cleaned because we HAD to; everyone all the way down to E1 knew it.

When you do it because it's your own choice, you can actually maintain your visibility as a leader. However, when you're "put" to work along with your junior guys buy someone senior to you; well... your junior guys see you as being "down with the struggle."

Choosing to do it and being required to do it each have totally different effects.

I actually agree with most of this.

However when you say things like this, it raises my eyebrow:


They called sweepers over the 1MC. I stayed at my desk and kept working. My LCPO walks in and asks me why I'm not out there doing sweepers. I told him, "Because I'm a First Class Petty Officer, THAT'S why!"

If any of my E-6s ever said this to me I would have them out doing some mundane task too. Eating a little humble pie would do them some good. I don't care what I ask you to do or who your are. If it's not illegal, unethical or immoral I expect them to do it.

Maybe the culture in the Navy is different but in the AF if my superior is out doing some crap job alongside me and my guys (even if its against his will) I have nothing but respect for him provided his attitude is right. If he is bitching and moaning about having to do something he believes is "below" his pay grade it has the effect of making those underlings believe their role in the task is also below them. People tend to mimic those they respect and attitudes are contagious...good or bad. That is my point. Leading by example.

Bunch
08-02-2013, 03:39 AM
I actually agree with most of this.

However when you say things like this, it raises my eyebrow:


If any of my E-6s ever said this to me I would have them out doing some mundane task too. Eating a little humble pie would do them some good. I don't care what I ask you to do or who your are. If it's not illegal, unethical or immoral I expect them to do it.

Maybe the culture in the Navy is different but in the AF if my superior is out doing some crap job alongside me and my guys (even if its against his will) I have nothing but respect for him provided his attitude is right. If he is bitching and moaning about having to do something he believes is "below" his pay grade it has the effect of making those underlings believe their role in the task is also below them. People tend to mimic those they respect and attitudes are contagious...good or bad. That is my point. Leading by example.

I totally agree with this. When I made SSgt my supervisor at the time told me I think the best advice on leadership I ever received which was "Never send your airmen to do something that you are not willing to do yourself"

4CECMC
08-05-2013, 05:21 AM
How about a cook, a stateroom, driver, same medical care as Flags, driver, etc............... not bad for a enlisted bubba huh?

Rusty Jones
08-05-2013, 01:35 PM
If any of my E-6s ever said this to me I would have them out doing some mundane task too. Eating a little humble pie would do them some good. I don't care what I ask you to do or who your are. If it's not illegal, unethical or immoral I expect them to do it.

If you asked them to do a mundane task in the first place, all you're doing is repeating yourself.

Besides, when the junior guys see an NCO that they report to being ORDERED to do these tasks; again, they're going to see that NCO as a peer.

In other words, you've just created a monster by doing that. Now YOU'VE gotta do that NCO's job, since you've just undermined his ability to do it himself.


Maybe the culture in the Navy is different but in the AF if my superior is out doing some crap job alongside me and my guys (even if its against his will) I have nothing but respect for him provided his attitude is right. If he is bitching and moaning about having to do something he believes is "below" his pay grade it has the effect of making those underlings believe their role in the task is also below them. People tend to mimic those they respect and attitudes are contagious...good or bad. That is my point. Leading by example.

The problem isn't whether or not something is "below" one's paygrade. The most important aspect of privileges that come with rank, is that they draw the lines that need to be drawn between the leaders and the led; lines that the rank on one's sleeve or collar can't draw on their own.

raider8169
08-05-2013, 01:40 PM
If the task is one that is repeated numerous times I will make sure I pick up one of them while my troops do the majority. Here for example we have escort duty and I have taken that a couple times during my tour here while my guys have all done if quite a few times. I would never task my guys to do something I am not willing to do myself. I think it is important for your troops to see you doing the same stuff they have to do day in and out. Plus I make it a point to know what they are all doing.

I have a few RHIP's in Korea as an E6 but not enough to say I have life better than anyone else. My Airman have been dorm rooms. The NCO dorm my group has is small. About the only thing I get is to choose my own work schedule while I assign the work schedule of everyone else. I still end up being here longer than all of them but it is by choice at least.

Rusty Jones
08-05-2013, 01:54 PM
I would never task my guys to do something I am not willing to do myself.

I really don't think that it's unethical to do otherwise, as long as it's something that you HAVE done yourself. You may not ever be willing to do it again (at least, not of your own volition), but you HAVE done it in the past; because you were once a junior troop simply doing a task that comes with the territory.

Privileges associated with rank, such as no longer having to do the dirty jobs, serves as a motivator for making rank. It's SUPPOSED to do that.

Ripcord
08-06-2013, 01:39 AM
Privileges associated with rank, such as no longer having to do the dirty jobs, serves as a motivator for making rank. It's SUPPOSED to do that.

Not in the AF and especially not at E6.

Chief_KO
08-06-2013, 03:11 AM
My experience is that the AF is less RHIP than the other branches (this is both good and bad).
On board the USS Blue Ridge in 1996, TSgt_KO was trying to work out some AOC data issues between USN and USAF. I asked my USN counterpart to rekey their cryptos to see if that had any impact. "I need Master Chief's okay" was the answer. Something so simply, Comm 101, and you need the E9s okay? My LT who sailed with me got to eat a nice roast beef in the officers mess, I didn't try to eat in the Chiefs mess, so I ate some sort of meat with a lot of gravy in the enlisted mess. The day we were set to chopper back to Korea we had a flight delay and were told to kickback with coffee and breakfast in the Chiefs mess. I was surprised (and quite uncomfortable) to be waited on by junior sailors (Yeoman?) complete with the folded white towel on their arm ala a waiter.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-06-2013, 05:33 AM
My experience is that the AF is less RHIP than the other branches (this is both good and bad).
On board the USS Blue Ridge in 1996, TSgt_KO was trying to work out some AOC data issues between USN and USAF. I asked my USN counterpart to rekey their cryptos to see if that had any impact. "I need Master Chief's okay" was the answer. Something so simply, Comm 101, and you need the E9s okay? My LT who sailed with me got to eat a nice roast beef in the officers mess, I didn't try to eat in the Chiefs mess, so I ate some sort of meat with a lot of gravy in the enlisted mess. The day we were set to chopper back to Korea we had a flight delay and were told to kickback with coffee and breakfast in the Chiefs mess. I was surprised (and quite uncomfortable) to be waited on by junior sailors (Yeoman?) complete with the folded white towel on their arm ala a waiter.

That does sound weird! At least you were cool about it.

I would have been tempted to address them as cabin boy and ordered something extra just so I could clap my hands together briskly and say, "chop chop!"

Chief_KO
08-06-2013, 01:13 PM
I also got lost on the ship and saw the door (polished brass, nice oak) leading to the oak-floored passageway marked "OFFICERS ONLY". Well, since I was lost and an AF Non-Commissioned Officer, I thought what the heck and took a chance (got away with it too!).

RobotChicken
08-06-2013, 01:26 PM
My experience is that the AF is less RHIP than the other branches (this is both good and bad).
On board the USS Blue Ridge in 1996, TSgt_KO was trying to work out some AOC data issues between USN and USAF. I asked my USN counterpart to rekey their cryptos to see if that had any impact. "I need Master Chief's okay" was the answer. Something so simply, Comm 101, and you need the E9s okay? My LT who sailed with me got to eat a nice roast beef in the officers mess, I didn't try to eat in the Chiefs mess, so I ate some sort of meat with a lot of gravy in the enlisted mess. The day we were set to chopper back to Korea we had a flight delay and were told to kickback with coffee and breakfast in the Chiefs mess. I was surprised (and quite uncomfortable) to be waited on by junior sailors (Yeoman?) complete with the folded white towel on their arm ala a waiter.

"Brings back memories wandering around 'officers country' on the 'Ridge' 20 years earlier...looking for 'ADM. X' !!"

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
08-06-2013, 01:30 PM
I also got lost on the ship and saw the door (polished brass, nice oak) leading to the oak-floored passageway marked "OFFICERS ONLY". Well, since I was lost and an AF Non-Commissioned Officer, I thought what the heck and took a chance (got away with it too!).

I got a tour of CVN 77 (Bush) and noticed doors marked for CPOs only and 0-5s and above only. I'm sure there were other different ranks marked on different doors too. Seems kind of silly to me to have such a strict level of segregation that they do on ships, but I guess that's good for morale and discipline?

Rusty Jones
08-06-2013, 10:12 PM
Not in the AF and especially not at E6.

So they do the janitorial work? Always have, the whole time you've been in?

The vibe that I'm getting from you, is that you view those in all pay grades lower than yours to be the same. And this isn't singling you out, because I know PLENTY of people like that.

Rusty Jones
08-07-2013, 01:48 PM
Not in the AF and especially not at E6.

So an E6 in the Air Force is a low enough man on the totem pole to be in the same rotation as E1 for the dirty work?

There are numerous complaints in the AF forum from NCOs who try to take corrective action with their problem troops, only for that troop to run to the SNCO and effectively get him or her to reverse whatever corrective action that the NCO took.

And now I see why.

BRUWIN
08-07-2013, 01:55 PM
I would have been tempted to address them as cabin boy and ordered something extra just so I could clap my hands together briskly and say, "chop chop!"

LOL...yeah, I could see you doing that.

I don't honestly know don't know how I would have handled it. I probably would have started helping them. I usually side with the underdogs.

Greg
08-07-2013, 02:45 PM
I got a tour of CVN 77 (Bush) and noticed doors marked for CPOs only and 0-5s and above only. I'm sure there were other different ranks marked on different doors too. Seems kind of silly to me to have such a strict level of segregation that they do on ships, but I guess that's good for morale and discipline?

And you are an authority on tradition? How?

Right or wrong, I'm interested in how you have an opinion on something you have no history of.

Ripcord
08-07-2013, 03:00 PM
So an E6 in the Air Force is a low enough man on the totem pole to be in the same rotation as E1 for the dirty work?

There are numerous complaints in the AF forum from NCOs who try to take corrective action with their problem troops, only for that troop to run to the SNCO and effectively get him or her to reverse whatever corrective action that the NCO took.

And now I see why.

Yup sometimes.

In the AF we don't really have the disposable manpower to do otherwise. Some careerfields like security forces are junior heavy but most are pretty even. Every career-field expects there members to be superior technicians and everybody is employed in there primary duty and it is the junior guys that do all the work. When it comes to "dirty work" we typically (in my experience anyway) do not have enough people in the bottom ranks to cover it so the work gets shared. Whether that's sweeping the floor, picking weeds, taking out the trash or escorting uncleared people into secure areas it doesn't matter. Basically everybody E6 and below shares the duties and occasionally an E7 will get hooked up too.

For example not too long ago most places cut their custodial contracts. Guess who got to pick that one up? E6 and below got put on a schedule. Just recently due to budget cuts the base stopped cutting grass and killing weeds. Because of this ALL of us including the squadron commander found ourselves doing an operation green sweep half a Saturday. The Commander was out there right next to out E1/E2s and everybody else wacking weeds and cutting grass.

It gets even more crazy when you go into the Space and Nuke worlds. There CGOs out number enlisted altogether. In space it is common practice for the CGOs to be sitting right next to a SrA doing the EXACT same job. Details and duties get spread evenly due to the manning we have not what we want.

So yes your vibe is incorrect but I can see how it may look like that to you.

It certainly seems that the chain of command is flat in the AF. It is a gripe with many Airmen...true.

Right or wrong we still somehow manage to do a pretty damn good job of killing bad guys by dominating the high ground...

raider8169
08-07-2013, 03:27 PM
Right or wrong we still somehow manage to do a pretty damn good job of killing bad guys by dominating the high ground...

The problem with this is, when was the last time we went up against a country with technology that could rival us?

Absinthe Anecdote
08-07-2013, 07:10 PM
LOL...yeah, I could see you doing that.

I don't honestly know don't know how I would have handled it. I probably would have started helping them. I usually side with the underdogs.

I sure as hell wouldn't have ate or drank anything they brought me after pulling a stunt like that!

If there is one group of people that I am NEVER rude to it is waiters and waitresses. My mother and sisters worked in a restaurant for years and you just would not believe what gets done to a rude customer's food!

RHIP?

Perhaps, but there is a lot of power that dwells in the hands of those who cook, clean, take care of when you are sick, and protect you when you sleep. It's best not to fuck with them.

Chief_KO
08-07-2013, 10:57 PM
The problem with this is, when was the last time we went up against a country with technology that could rival us?

1941 - 1945. And ever since, our over-reliance on our technological advantage has been one of our biggest shortfalls. When was the last air-to-air battle...1973?

Juggs
08-07-2013, 11:20 PM
1941 - 1945. And ever since, our over-reliance on our technological advantage has been one of our biggest shortfalls. When was the last air-to-air battle...1973?

91ish, that's the last serious one anyhow.

Chief_KO
08-08-2013, 01:30 AM
Really, 1991? It doesn't ring a bell...

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
08-08-2013, 01:57 AM
And you are an authority on tradition? How?

Right or wrong, I'm interested in how you have an opinion on something you have no history of.

So, my post expressing MY OPINION somehow leads you to believe that I think I'm the authority on something I observed while touring a ship? Also, I'm interested in how you think one has to know the history of something in order to form an opinion based on an initial observation.

Juggs
08-08-2013, 12:53 PM
Really, 1991? It doesn't ring a bell...

Desert Storm, there were a few air to air battles. Jan 17 through 15 feb there were several air to air engagements. Take a gander.

Chief_KO
08-08-2013, 12:58 PM
Desert Storm, there were a few air to air battles. Jan 17 through 15 Jan there were several air to air engagements. Take a gander.

Sorry for misspeaking, I was thinking of dogfights, guns blazing, pulling Gs, etc. I think the last US dogfight (F-4) with an enemy a/c was towards the end of Vietnam. Not taking anything away from our a/c or aircrews but it has been a long time that we've engaged in that kind of warfare.

Rusty Jones
08-08-2013, 02:10 PM
RHIP?

Perhaps, but there is a lot of power that dwells in the hands of those who cook, clean, take care of when you are sick, and protect you when you sleep. It's best not to fuck with them.

Maybe.

I remember a guy telling me a story when he was a mess crank. He was working in the wardroom. Well, the cranks should have been off work 1800. However, the ones working in the wardroom were waiting on the officers - who were in the wardroom for some meeting - to get done with their dishes. And they couldn’t go home until this happened. They were there until almost 2000; so after the officers left, the mess cranks washed the plates first, and then smeared their sweaty balls all over them.

But, of course... is that REALLY "power" if the officers didn't know what happened, and have the power to punish these guys if they DID know?

Absinthe Anecdote
08-08-2013, 02:26 PM
Maybe.

I remember a guy telling me a story when he was a mess crank. He was working in the wardroom. Well, the cranks should have been off work 1800. However, the ones working in the wardroom were waiting on the officers - who were in the wardroom for some meeting - to get done with their dishes. And they couldn’t go home until this happened. They were there until almost 2000; so after the officers left, the mess cranks washed the plates first, and then smeared their sweaty balls all over them.

But, of course... is that REALLY "power" if the officers didn't know what happened, and have the power to punish these guys if they DID know?

Good story!

You have a point and I was just loosely quoting a line from the movie, Fight Club.

Still, it is good advice not to fuck with a waiter or waitress. Oh, might I also suggest that you never order the clam chowder.

Juggs
08-08-2013, 03:05 PM
Sorry for misspeaking, I was thinking of dogfights, guns blazing, pulling Gs, etc. I think the last US dogfight (F-4) with an enemy a/c was towards the end of Vietnam. Not taking anything away from our a/c or aircrews but it has been a long time that we've engaged in that kind of warfare.

No sweat. That is certainly a different time.

akruse
08-08-2013, 03:28 PM
Desert Storm, there were a few air to air battles. Jan 17 through 15 Jan there were several air to air engagements. Take a gander.

40 in desert storm and 5 in Alllied Force

akruse
08-08-2013, 03:33 PM
Sorry for misspeaking, I was thinking of dogfights, guns blazing, pulling Gs, etc. I think the last US dogfight (F-4) with an enemy a/c was towards the end of Vietnam. Not taking anything away from our a/c or aircrews but it has been a long time that we've engaged in that kind of warfare.

You're continuing to misspeak :) There were within visual range "dogfights" in WW Desert Storm.

Great site

http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/avc.asp

Chief_KO
08-09-2013, 01:30 AM
Thanks all for the air-to-air education. I'll be the first to admit, that is not my strongpoint when it comes to AF history (as weird as that sounds). I've always been more into the stories of the people rather than the weapons.

akruse
08-09-2013, 06:25 AM
Thanks all for the air-to-air education. I'll be the first to admit, that is not my strongpoint when it comes to AF history (as weird as that sounds). I've always been more into the stories of the people rather than the weapons.

You know there are people in those weapons systems right and that the weapons systems require inputs.

Juggs
08-09-2013, 02:40 PM
You know there are people in those weapons systems right and that the weapons systems require inputs.

Not if they become self aware.

Pullinteeth
08-13-2013, 07:17 PM
You're continuing to misspeak :) There were within visual range "dogfights" in WW Desert Storm.

Great site

http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/avc.asp

Ah.....he got you on this one... If you notice, in his last post, he specified the F-4 so yeah, the last aerial vicotory by an F-4 was Jan 8th 1973... All the ones in the Gulf War were F-15/A-10/F-16....

akruse
08-14-2013, 06:29 AM
Ah.....he got you on this one... If you notice, in his last post, he specified the F-4 so yeah, the last aerial vicotory by an F-4 was Jan 8th 1973... All the ones in the Gulf War were F-15/A-10/F-16....

I stand by my statement your honor. The parentheses merely state the type of aircraft in relation to the last "dog fight". I move for a mistrial.

Absinthe Anecdote
08-14-2013, 02:16 PM
Actually most Vietnam era F-4s didn't have cannon and only took missile shots.

Even though there were plenty of opportunities for gun kills in air-to-air engagements very few occurred due to this.

Most where missile shots and not your traditional close in dogfight with pilots calling Fox Three.

This began to change towards the end of the war when the F-4s were rearmed with 20mm cannon.