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fufu
02-02-2012, 07:06 PM
I'm hearing rumors that SNCOs without a Course 14 or CCAF and retirement eligilbe will have to retire or complete the requirements in 12 months. Having said that, 65% of the SNCOs my group have not completed both Crs 14 and a CCAF.

Anybody heard this?

SENDBILLMONEY
02-02-2012, 07:13 PM
I'm hearing rumors that SNCOs without a Course 14 or CCAF and retirement eligilbe will have to retire or complete the requirements in 12 months. Having said that, 65% of the SNCOs my group have not completed both Crs 14 and a CCAF.

Anybody heard this?

Hadn't heard it, but it doesn't pass my sniff test as presented. It sounds like a dandy way to circumvent the promotion ADSC: Pin on MSgt, blow off Course 14 or CCAF, forced retirement, profit.

Tak
02-02-2012, 07:43 PM
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123103006

Tak
02-02-2012, 07:44 PM
Now you have up to 72 months to do it...I think it used to be 12 though...I can't see it be required to stay past 20...I remember years ago for a short time they were retiring C coded people over 20, that got reversed very quickly. Even if you do Course 14 and have CCAF, you may not get SRE.

giggawatt
02-02-2012, 08:18 PM
I'm hearing rumors that SNCOs without a Course 14 or CCAF and retirement eligilbe will have to retire or complete the requirements in 12 months. Having said that, 65% of the SNCOs my group have not completed both Crs 14 and a CCAF.

Anybody heard this?

I haven't heard of it but if there is any truth to it, then there may be some MSgt slots opening up for me in the near future. :D CCAF is done and Course 14 nearly finished.

FLAPS
02-02-2012, 08:19 PM
I haven't heard about this, but I think it's a GREAT idea. CCAF can be knocked out following completion of your CDC EOC test (as a A1C), and Crs 14 can be taken care of as a TSgt. It's only five tests that can reasonably be done in less than five months....if that.

If you are going to kick people out of the AF to get the numbers down, might as well go after those who clearly don't care about professional development.

TJMAC77SP
02-02-2012, 08:24 PM
I remember getting my ass reamed for not having Course 14 done and I hadn't even sewn the frapping stripe on yet? Chiefs in the cops are pretty hard over on that stuff (in my experience anyway). Of course we just called it the SNCO Academy Correspondence Course and it was in books!!!!!!

From what I understand it was easier in my day as you had two tests (Module A and Module B). If you scanned and looked up the answers to the practice questions at the end of each chapter and then used that as a study guide you could pass. Which is a good thing because the content was absolutely brain numbing. The only thing I read from start to finish was a monograph by VADM Stockdale. Brilliant guy.

Measure Man
02-02-2012, 08:29 PM
I haven't heard about this, but I think it's a GREAT idea. CCAF can be knocked out following completion of your CDC EOC test (as a A1C), and Crs 14 can be taken care of as a TSgt. It's only five tests that can reasonably be done in less than five months....if that.

If you are going to kick people out of the AF to get the numbers down, might as well go after those who clearly don't care about professional development.

I tend to agree that this is a good idea, though there are better ones out there.

I'm not a huge proponent of the "up or out" mentality...however, I do think that service beyond 20 years should be a "privilege at the strict convenience of the AF"....i.e. no med waivers, extended profiles, edcuation deferment, senior in HS deferment, etc., etc....after 20, you're either all-in or it's time to go, no harm no foul.

It should be very EASY for the commander to terminate the service of +20 yrs folks...and I would imagine that if they would do that...that no CCAF/Crse 14 folks would probably be in that list...but, I'd still start with the broken bodies who can't deploy or PCS first.

Tak
02-02-2012, 08:40 PM
I haven't heard about this, but I think it's a GREAT idea. CCAF can be knocked out following completion of your CDC EOC test (as a A1C), and Crs 14 can be taken care of as a TSgt. It's only five tests that can reasonably be done in less than five months....if that.

If you are going to kick people out of the AF to get the numbers down, might as well go after those who clearly don't care about professional development.

Hey FLAPS stick to your officer knowledge, not all TSgts can do it.
"Taken care of as a TSgt"...Who has been a TSgt 2 years and Who has been to the NCOA...

Tak
02-02-2012, 08:44 PM
I tend to agree that this is a good idea, though there are better ones out there.

I'm not a huge proponent of the "up or out" mentality...however, I do think that service beyond 20 years should be a "privilege at the strict convenience of the AF"....i.e. no med waivers, extended profiles, edcuation deferment, senior in HS deferment, etc., etc....after 20, you're either all-in or it's time to go, no harm no foul.

It should be very EASY for the commander to terminate the service of +20 yrs folks...and I would imagine that if they would do that...that no CCAF/Crse 14 folks would probably be in that list...but, I'd still start with the broken bodies who can't deploy or PCS first.

Hyt for msgt is 24, why should they not get to stay past 20...

Measure Man
02-02-2012, 08:51 PM
Hyt for msgt is 24, why should they not get to stay past 20...

They should get to stay to 24 if they continue to be highly productive and engaged, and are healthy, deployable, PCSable, etc.

Okay, so I might cut a guy a little slack if he's at 18 years...has only 2 to go to retirement, etc. I'm not gonna put him out at that point unless is a more extreme reason. I'm more than happy to let a cripple ride out his last 2 years being undeployable...he gave us 18 good years, it's the least we could do.

But, once he hits 20, it should be a lot easier to force him out...we're not taking anything from him at that point. Like I said, service beyond 20 should be at the strict convenience of the AF, IMO.

Aitrus
02-02-2012, 09:21 PM
FLAPS and MM: Let's take a 20-year MSgt who's great in the trenches, mentors his troops well, deploys without any qualms, has tons of experience and savvy and is otherwise an asset to the AF. You'd be willing to get rid of him for the simple fact that he hasn't met optional enhancements to his professional development that may or may not translate into a promotion?

IMHO, that short-sighted non-mission-enhancing sentiment is a part of what's wrong with the AF today. What's wrong with letting a great MSgt do 4 more years of shop supervision work if he's good at it? If he's gone as far as he cares to go with rank, what's the matter with letting him work his magic? Not everybody wants to be an upper-level-muckety-muck-manager neck deep in politics and red tape, and it's not like we're paying him more to do the same job he wants to do, so why not let him do it?

Now, I can see your point if you have a lazy, profile-extending, non-deploying, bad-tempered, morale killing 9-5er spreading his ass in a basement office fiddling with numbers in Excel and making Power Points, but to paint all with a broad brush is a little extreme. Why lose good people that want to stay and are comfortable with their position and pay?

Measure Man
02-02-2012, 10:03 PM
FLAPS and MM: Let's take a 20-year MSgt who's great in the trenches, mentors his troops well, deploys without any qualms, has tons of experience and savvy and is otherwise an asset to the AF. You'd be willing to get rid of him for the simple fact that he hasn't met optional enhancements to his professional development that may or may not translate into a promotion?

IMHO, that short-sighted non-mission-enhancing sentiment is a part of what's wrong with the AF today. What's wrong with letting a great MSgt do 4 more years of shop supervision work if he's good at it? If he's gone as far as he cares to go with rank, what's the matter with letting him work his magic? Not everybody wants to be an upper-level-muckety-muck-manager neck deep in politics and red tape, and it's not like we're paying him more to do the same job he wants to do, so why not let him do it?

I would like to see ANY over 20 service to be a privilege. IF that were the case, I can imagine that CCAF/Course 14 would be a discriminator used.

I think the AF has made it abundantly clear that they desire for MSgts to have a CCAF and Course 14 complete...someone who chooses to not meet those expectations, is showing a little more than "just not having a degree"...they are showing that they don't really care what the AF wants.

I don't view the CCAF/Course 14 as "things for promotion" so much as "things expected of a MSgt"

Yes, they are "optional." But, IMO, service at 20+ yrs, a SRE, and a 5 EPR are also optional.

In my perfect world, though, CCAF/C14 wouldn't be "mandatory" to get a SRE or "mandatory" for retention 20+...but rather the "norm" while still letting commanders make exceptions.

So, I'm straddling the fence a little on this one...I'd still like it to be the norm, but yeah, I'd like the guy you described to be allowed an exception if his commander decided it is extremely convenient for the AF to retain him. So, the part I LIKE about the idea is the step toward looking at 20+ service to be a privilege moreso than that focus on CCAF/C14.


Now, I can see your point if you have a lazy, profile-extending, non-deploying, bad-tempered, morale killing 9-5er spreading his ass in a basement office fiddling with numbers in Excel and making Power Points, but to paint all with a broad brush is a little extreme. Why lose good people that want to stay and are comfortable with their position and pay?

I have a couple personal experiences that led me to this:

Case 1: Back when TSgt HYT was 24...had a 22 yr TSgt eligible to reenlist. Okay guy, nothing special...a little disgruntled, on fat-boy program, etc (prior to the current PT-roid-rage)...well, I wanted the commander to deny him reenlistment and send him on his way...couldn't do it without disciplinary, etc....I thought, gee, it should be a lot easier to do that to this guy...not like we're taking away his retirement or something like if he were denied at 17 years or so...it was just time to move him on and get someone else.

Case 2: MSgt at like 21 years, somehow picks up a line # for SMSgt. Stationed at Nellis..owns a house, etc. He also had diabetes or something where he couldn't PCS overseas, couldn't deploy, etc. AFPC would not PCS him CONUS-CONUS. Oh, and he was still in a MSgt slot as there was no SMSgt auth for his AFSC at Nellis. So, he sat there for 7 YEARS, doing a MSgt job, earning SMSgt pay, unable to deploy or PCS...until he HYT'd. Bullshit.

hugomk
02-02-2012, 10:05 PM
What about MSgt that has a Bachelors Degree but not a CCAF?

DWWSWWD
02-02-2012, 10:07 PM
FLAPS and MM: You'd be willing to get rid of him for the simple fact that he hasn't met optional enhancements to his professional development that may or may not translate into a promotion?.......
What's wrong with letting a great MSgt do 4 more years of shop supervision work if he's good at it? If he's gone as far as he cares to go with rank, what's the matter with letting him work his magic?

People make the mistake of thinking that since you can't make SMSgt without those things done, that the first level for which it is required, is SMSgt. It's not. These 2 things are expectations of MSgts as outlined in 36-2618. You are expected to do it and foster completion of education and appropriate level of PME for subordinates. You cannot be a good supervisor by telling folks to do these things while not having done them yourself.

golfer55
02-02-2012, 10:08 PM
I haven't heard about this, but I think it's a GREAT idea. CCAF can be knocked out following completion of your CDC EOC test (as a A1C), and Crs 14 can be taken care of as a TSgt. It's only five tests that can reasonably be done in less than five months....if that.

If you are going to kick people out of the AF to get the numbers down, might as well go after those who clearly don't care about professional development.

Blew course 14 off for two years, but finally got it done in August. test 1 on Tues, test 2 on Thurs, next week test 3 on Tues, test 4 on Thurs then finally test 5 the following week. 2 1/2 weeks and completed. I should have done that from day one.

Measure Man
02-02-2012, 10:10 PM
What about MSgt that has a Bachelors Degree but not a CCAF?

Thank you for your service...off ya go.

hugomk
02-02-2012, 10:14 PM
Thank you for your service...off ya go.

Why not. Might as well make that BS work for you outside the military.

Kegler
02-02-2012, 10:19 PM
What about MSgt that has a Bachelors Degree but not a CCAF?

USUALLY these type only fall into but a few categories

1. Too lazy to go down to Ed office and enroll....get CCAF because all requirements have been completed with Bachelors
2. Too lazy to go down to Ed office and enroll...complete speech class (if you are a MSgt and cant CLEP it...wow is all I will say) and rest of requirements have been completed with Bachelors
3. Disgruntled and just wants to buck the system, this individual probably hasnt completed course 14 either because he just wants to buck the system and will tell you he is "being held down by the man"

As MM said...thank you for your service. Have a good day!

FLAPS
02-02-2012, 10:25 PM
Hey FLAPS stick to your officer knowledge, not all TSgts can do it.
"Taken care of as a TSgt"...Who has been a TSgt 2 years and Who has been to the NCOA...

First of all, I was a TSgt, so I think that makes me somewhat qualified to speak on their behalf. Second, my job as an officer is to understand enlisted professional development. To your credit though, I should have been clear on WHAT TYPE of TSgt can knock out their Crs 14. Either way, my statement was correct..."taken care of as a TSgt."

Aitrus
02-02-2012, 10:28 PM
I think the AF has made it abundantly clear that they desire for MSgts to have a CCAF and Course 14 complete...someone who chooses to not meet those expectations, is showing a little more than "just not having a degree"...they are showing that they don't really care what the AF wants.
I think you're attributing your personal bias on the amorphous "they" of the AF. If the powers that be really wanted it that bad, they would make it mandatory, which is what this thread is about. Since they haven't done so then the MSgt is meeting the requirements for his rank. In effect, he does care about what the AF wants, and he's met the things set forth as requirements for the rank. What's the problem? He's not overachieving enough for you? I would think that the AF would "want" it's members to focus more on getting the mission done than padding their resumes or checking boxes for promotion. The guy cares, just not about the same things you care about or with the same passion. To me, that's not a good enough reason to get rid of him.


I don't view the CCAF/Course 14 as "things for promotion" so much as "things expected of a MSgt"
Those are things the AF expects of a MSgt who wants to promote. What about one who doesn't want to promote? The AF has said "If he don't care enough to get CCAF or Course 14 done, then his max is 24 years." It sounds to me like it's you who doesn't care about what the AF wants.


Yes, they are "optional." But, IMO, service at 20+ yrs, a SRE, and a 5 EPR are also optional. The whole "20 years is optional" thing reminds me of a Star Trek The Next Generation episode. The crew encounter a race who kills off any member that reaches the age of 60 simply because they aren't considered to be useful anymore.

Technically, any re-enlistment, leave approvals, BOPs, hardship waivers, and much more are are all "optional". If there's a long-standing precedent for letting those without those extras stay in until 24, what's wrong with them taking advantage of it?


In my perfect world, though, CCAF/C14 wouldn't be "mandatory" to get a SRE or "mandatory" for retention 20+...but rather the "norm" while still letting commanders make exceptions.

So, I'm straddling the fence a little on this one...I'd still like it to be the norm, but yeah, I'd like the guy you described to be allowed an exception if his commander decided it is extremely convenient for the AF to retain him.
Then I take it that you would like to see overachievement as the new "norm"?



I have a couple personal experiences that led me to this:

Case 1: Back when TSgt HYT was 24...had a 22 yr TSgt eligible to reenlist. Okay guy, nothing special...a little disgruntled, on fat-boy program, etc (prior to the current PT-roid-rage)...well, I wanted the commander to deny him reenlistment and send him on his way...couldn't do it without disciplinary, etc....I thought, gee, it should be a lot easier to do that to this guy...not like we're taking away his retirement or something like if he were denied at 17 years or so...it was just time to move him on and get someone else.

Case 2: MSgt at like 21 years, somehow picks up a line # for SMSgt. Stationed at Nellis..owns a house, etc. He also had diabetes or something where he couldn't PCS overseas, couldn't deploy, etc. AFPC would not PCS him CONUS-CONUS. Oh, and he was still in a MSgt slot as there was no SMSgt auth for his AFSC at Nellis. So, he sat there for 7 YEARS, doing a MSgt job, earning SMSgt pay, unable to deploy or PCS...until he HYT'd. Bullshit.

Case 1: I agree that that TSgt, if was as you described, deserved to be let loose. The CC decided, for whatever reason, to let him stay. His call.

Case 2: If the guy is a guru in his AFSC and is good, then I don't have a problem with letting him sit and mentor, pass on experience, draft AFI rewrites, whatever. Just because a guy is broke doesn't mean he should go to the trash.
The AF obviously decided to promote the guy for some reason, it's just not clear to you. Could be "Good-ol-boy" results, maybe not. Either way, unless he was a dirt-bag, I see no reason not to keep him around. The home office needs good leaders too. I've met some awesome leaders who never deployed, or had only 1 OSW deployment to Kuwait or the like under their belt. Sandbox time does not automatically make somebody a leader, any more than being "educated" makes you smart.

FLAPS
02-02-2012, 10:32 PM
What about MSgt that has a Bachelors Degree but not a CCAF?

I don't personally have a problem with that, but the AF does...and that's all that matters today.

FLAPS
02-02-2012, 10:36 PM
FLAPS and MM: Let's take a 20-year MSgt who's great in the trenches, mentors his troops well, deploys without any qualms, has tons of experience and savvy and is otherwise an asset to the AF. You'd be willing to get rid of him for the simple fact that he hasn't met optional enhancements to his professional development that may or may not translate into a promotion?

IMHO, that short-sighted non-mission-enhancing sentiment is a part of what's wrong with the AF today. What's wrong with letting a great MSgt do 4 more years of shop supervision work if he's good at it? If he's gone as far as he cares to go with rank, what's the matter with letting him work his magic? Not everybody wants to be an upper-level-muckety-muck-manager neck deep in politics and red tape, and it's not like we're paying him more to do the same job he wants to do, so why not let him do it?

Now, I can see your point if you have a lazy, profile-extending, non-deploying, bad-tempered, morale killing 9-5er spreading his ass in a basement office fiddling with numbers in Excel and making Power Points, but to paint all with a broad brush is a little extreme. Why lose good people that want to stay and are comfortable with their position and pay?

Good points you've made, but my biggest concern is, how can a MSgt properly "mentor" anyone if they have failed to fulfill simple expectations of their grade? Just check the damn boxes (Crs 14 and CCAF) and move along!

hugomk
02-02-2012, 10:36 PM
I don't personally have a problem with that, but the AF does...and that's all that matters today.

They make the rules. So everyone has to play by it.

Aitrus
02-02-2012, 10:41 PM
People make the mistake of thinking that since you can't make SMSgt without those things done, that the first level for which it is required, is SMSgt. It's not. These 2 things are expectations of MSgts as outlined in 36-2618. You are expected to do it and foster completion of education and appropriate level of PME for subordinates. You cannot be a good supervisor by telling folks to do these things while not having done them yourself.

Expected - not Required. There's a difference.

I see no conflict if a supervisor who sets himself a goal of making MSgt, reaches it without CCAF or Course 14, then advises his troops to get their CCAF, etc. He's meeting his personal goals while encouraging the troops to go after theirs. Sounds to me as if that supervisor has his priorities lined up pretty well. A good supervisor looks out for the best interests of the troop. Just because I'm not an officer or hold public office doesn't mean I can't encourage my daughters to go for it if that's their goal. Does my lack of those achievements make me less of a father?

Being a supervisor is doing paperwork. Being a leader and mentor is being inspirational. Not all good leaders lead by example. Some leaders guide because they know how the game is played, even if they've opted not to play it themselves.

Keep in mind, CCAF isn't much, just documentation stating you completed Tech School and OJT, plus a couple of other non-essentials.

Measure Man
02-02-2012, 10:48 PM
I think you're attributing your personal bias on the amorphous "they" of the AF. If the powers that be really wanted it that bad, they would make it mandatory, which is what this thread is about. Since they haven't done so then the MSgt is meeting the requirements for his rank. In effect, he does care about what the AF wants, and he's met the things set forth as requirements for the rank. What's the problem? He's not overachieving enough for you? I would think that the AF would "want" it's members to focus more on getting the mission done than padding their resumes or checking boxes for promotion. The guy cares, just not about the same things you care about or with the same passion. To me, that's not a good enough reason to get rid of him.

Those are things the AF expects of a MSgt who wants to promote. What about one who doesn't want to promote? The AF has said "If he don't care enough to get CCAF or Course 14 done, then his max is 24 years." It sounds to me like it's you who doesn't care about what the AF wants.

As I said, I think the AF has made it abudantly clear that it wants/expects MSgts to complete the Course 14 and have a CCAF.


The whole "20 years is optional" thing reminds me of a Star Trek The Next Generation episode. The crew encounter a race who kills off any member that reaches the age of 60 simply because they aren't considered to be useful anymore.

Technically, any re-enlistment, leave approvals, BOPs, hardship waivers, and much more are are all "optional". If there's a long-standing precedent for letting those without those extras stay in until 24, what's wrong with them taking advantage of it?

Yes, they are are all "optional"...I'll say there is a certain standard for letting a guy reenlist the first time...and the second time, etc. After 16 years or so, denying him is appealable to the SECAF, right? So, it is a lot easier to deny a first termer reenlistment than it is a 16 year guy...all I'm saying is it should be even easier to deny a 20+ guy that a first termer.


Then I take it that you would like to see overachievement as the new "norm"?

I don't consider getting a CCAF/ C14 as overachievement....but yes, I think overachievement should be the norm in people over 20.


Case 1: I agree that that TSgt, if was as you described, deserved to be let loose. The CC decided, for whatever reason, to let him stay. His call.

Well, yeah, basically he applied the same "reenlistment" standard as he would to any other career Airman....my personal opinion is that the standard at 20+ should be a lot lot higher.


Case 2: If the guy is a guru in his AFSC and is good, then I don't have a problem with letting him sit and mentor, pass on experience, draft AFI rewrites, whatever. Just because a guy is broke doesn't mean he should go to the trash.
The AF obviously decided to promote the guy for some reason, it's just not clear to you. Could be "Good-ol-boy" results, maybe not. Either way, unless he was a dirt-bag, I see no reason not to keep him around. The home office needs good leaders too. I've met some awesome leaders who never deployed, or had only 1 OSW deployment to Kuwait or the like under their belt. Sandbox time does not automatically make somebody a leader, any more than being "educated" makes you smart.

Not saying the guy has to deploy to be a good leader...but he should be ABLE to deploy. I know many great leaders that haven't deployed, but they are ready, willing and able.

Kegler
02-02-2012, 11:09 PM
I see no conflict if a supervisor who sets himself a goal of making MSgt, reaches it without CCAF or Course 14, then advises his troops to get their CCAF, etc. He's meeting his personal goals while encouraging the troops to go after theirs. Sounds to me as if that supervisor has his priorities lined up pretty well.

Yup...."Do as I say, not as I do" is always a good trait for a supervisor :doh


Keep in mind, CCAF isn't much, just documentation stating you completed Tech School and OJT, plus a couple of other non-essentials.

So, since it that damn easy (which it really is) why are you arguing it?

Tak
02-02-2012, 11:59 PM
First of all, I was a TSgt, so I think that makes me somewhat qualified to speak on their behalf. Second, my job as an officer is to understand enlisted professional development. To your credit though, I should have been clear on WHAT TYPE of TSgt can knock out their Crs 14. Either way, my statement was correct..."taken care of as a TSgt."

Spoken like a true officer...I guess you just needed to recalibrate your answer...after
All you were a tsgt like 15 years ago and things don't change...

BTW, course 14 is so important, it is not legal to mention it on the epr.

I bet your masters was encouraged, did you get it and if not you should have
Been put out at 20 right...course 14 and CCAF is not a measure of squat. The
Fact that leaders think it is, shows their disconnect...this reminds me of someone
With a great uniform or mess dress, and people think they are superstars. No more
Than a basketball jersey and shoes makes you a great bball player.

Measure Man
02-03-2012, 12:19 AM
Keep in mind, CCAF isn't much, just documentation stating you completed Tech School and OJT, plus a couple of other non-essentials.

So, what might this little piece of information tell us about someone who hasn't gotten one in 20 years?

Measure Man
02-03-2012, 12:20 AM
BTW, course 14 is so important, it is not legal to mention it on the epr.

...because it is on the DVR.

Tak
02-03-2012, 12:27 AM
...because it is on the DVR.

In DVR = not in EPR

As you know, it was removed because of abuse and exaggeration

FLAPS
02-03-2012, 12:33 AM
Spoken like a true officer...I guess you just needed to recalibrate your answer...after
All you were a tsgt like 15 years ago and things don't change...

BTW, course 14 is so important, it is not legal to mention it on the epr.

I bet your masters was encouraged, did you get it and if not you should have
Been put out at 20 right...course 14 and CCAF is not a measure of squat. The
Fact that leaders think it is, shows their disconnect...this reminds me of someone
With a great uniform or mess dress, and people think they are superstars. No more
Than a basketball jersey and shoes makes you a great bball player.

Do you have your CCAF, Crs 14 or both?

KellyinAvon
02-03-2012, 12:38 AM
In DVR = not in EPR

As you know, it was removed because of abuse and exaggeration

Happens every so many years, PME is forbiden from EPRs for a few years, then it makes a comeback, then it gets forbidden again. The big difference in the past was PME wasn't "everyone in this rank goes to this class". Being selected to SNCOA as a MSgt used to mean something (you were in the top 10% of non-selects).

BRUWIN
02-03-2012, 12:59 AM
I wonder how many that have bachelor's degrees but no CCAF will still insist on sticking to their principles.

Tak
02-03-2012, 01:12 AM
Do you have your CCAF, Crs 14 or both?

CCAF in 1996, central texas college degree 2008, course 14 2009, CCAF professional managers
Certification 2011, second CCAF 2011.

2010 didn't get sre, 2011 got sre.

cloudFFVII
02-03-2012, 02:41 AM
I would say No to the "forced retirement" part of this. I haven't seen anything (and I'm in a great position to see, mind you) if a change like this came out.

Now, could I see someone being denied SRE as well as a "firewall" 5 as a SNCO for not completing Course 14? Absolutely and I would agree with it 100%. As others mentioned, if you're a SNCO and not completing this items, then you're in no position to be advising your troop to do the same.

That being said...it's all a little ridiculous IMHO that someone with 2 Masters Degrees would be denied SRE just because they don't have a CCAF. Not having a CCAF does not = not having the advanced education the AF so sorely desires.

Tak
02-03-2012, 02:58 AM
Enlisted with CCAF = no extra money
Enlisted with 2 year degree = no extra money
Enlisted with 4 year degree = no extra money
Enlisted with masters degree = no extra money
Enlisted with PhD = no extra money

Bumble78
02-03-2012, 03:06 AM
I honestly don't see what the big deal with completing the Course 14 is. It takes minimal effort to complete, and it is only five tests.
The CCAF makes a little more sense for people not to have it. It takes more effort. But if you CLEP the CCAF, depending on your career field it is only five tests.

So ten tests and you are done with both.

Tak
02-03-2012, 03:17 AM
We are enlisted...if we needed degrees, make us officers and pay us accordingly.
To make us need degrees without pay is crazy.

giggawatt
02-03-2012, 07:18 AM
I think one of the main arguments about the CCAF is that it's easy so just friggin do it! By the time you're a MSgt, you basically have it 90% complete. If you have a BS/BA then there's no reason not to have your CCAF because all you have to do is go to the education office and get the diploma. Chances are that you've met the requirements. Like someone said, if you have a BS/BA and no CCAF it's pretty much because you're lazy or just giving the finger to the man.
Course 14 is another easy one in my opinion.

So, if it were made mandatory to finish these things to stay in past 20, all I'm saying is that it's not really that hard (STS). Just check the stupid box.

bcoco14
02-03-2012, 08:20 AM
I'm with MM on this. I'm not a blue koolaid drink guy by a long shot but come on. It really isn't that hard and if we are going to cut another 10K people then why not cut some who aren't going to be totally fucked over? It's not like they're at 14 years getting told to pack their bags.

Yes, it may be optional but in my personal opinion the people who can't/wont do this should be cut. Seeing as they are looking to cut 10K more people this year.

Your CCAF can be done in minimal time. I did my first one in a matter of..... weeks!!!! That's right weeks!! CLEP'd the entire thing. Walked in and took some tests and got a degree, never even cracked a book! Now I understand not everyone can walk in with no preparation and pass a test, I'm fortunate that I can do that, but for fuck sake it's not rocket science. If you need it put in a little effort.

Course 14- Haven't started it yet but I just enrolled earlier this week. Is it stupid? Yes! Is PME fucking retarded? Yes! Do I want to do it? Fuck NO !! that is what the AF wants though. I have no aspirations to make it past MSgt, if I can even make that. If you don't do those thing you are essentially pulling yourself out of the pool for promotion, that's just stupid IMO.

Airtrus- Do you really think that the Gen Ed for your CCAF are worth nothing? I will tell you this... they do count... 10 classes for mt BS, 10 classes!!! that's it!! Year and a half and you're done and it's not from one of the diploma mills either.

pjluckyman
02-03-2012, 08:58 AM
FLAPS and MM: Let's take a 20-year MSgt who's great in the trenches, mentors his troops well, deploys without any qualms, has tons of experience and savvy and is otherwise an asset to the AF. You'd be willing to get rid of him for the simple fact that he hasn't met optional enhancements to his professional development that may or may not translate into a promotion?

IMHO, that short-sighted non-mission-enhancing sentiment is a part of what's wrong with the AF today. What's wrong with letting a great MSgt do 4 more years of shop supervision work if he's good at it? If he's gone as far as he cares to go with rank, what's the matter with letting him work his magic? Not everybody wants to be an upper-level-muckety-muck-manager neck deep in politics and red tape, and it's not like we're paying him more to do the same job he wants to do, so why not let him do it?

Now, I can see your point if you have a lazy, profile-extending, non-deploying, bad-tempered, morale killing 9-5er spreading his ass in a basement office fiddling with numbers in Excel and making Power Points, but to paint all with a broad brush is a little extreme. Why lose good people that want to stay and are comfortable with their position and pay?


AMEN! Beyond popular belief the AF needs good MSgt's who are perfectly happy supporting the mission at the level they are at. There are enough people who are busy stepping on everyone else to get to the top. I have the utmost respect for those that want to make SMSgt or higher but as long as you do it pushing your people not stepping on them. There are MSgt's like myself that chose not make themselves promotable for the betterment of their family and still provide quality service to the AF and their country.

TheGoldenChild
02-03-2012, 09:06 AM
I personally think anyone who has not won an annual wing award should be seperated asap.

FLAPS
02-03-2012, 09:25 AM
Enlisted with CCAF = no extra money
Enlisted with 2 year degree = no extra money
Enlisted with 4 year degree = no extra money
Enlisted with masters degree = no extra money
Enlisted with PhD = no extra money

Enlisted with 2 year degree= no A1C stripes immediately following basic?
Enlisted with 4 year degree= thanks for serving
Enlisted with masters degree= what are you smoking?
Enlisted with PhD= you're an idiot!

FLAPS
02-03-2012, 09:27 AM
CCAF in 1996, central texas college degree 2008, course 14 2009, CCAF professional managers
Certification 2011, second CCAF 2011.

2010 didn't get sre, 2011 got sre.

That's an impressive list of accomplishments, but no SRE? Not time in grade eligible, or did you get caught banging your LT?

TJMAC77SP
02-03-2012, 10:49 AM
IThose are things the AF expects of a MSgt who wants to promote. What about one who doesn't want to promote? The AF has said "If he don't care enough to get CCAF or Course 14 done, then his max is 24 years." It sounds to me like it's you who doesn't care about what the AF wants.



Not sure I follow this logic. Even if he cared enough to complete CCAF and Crs 14 his max is 24 years. His board scores alone despite fulfilling all those mandatory and unwritten requirements could delay his promotion. Truer in some AFSCs than others.

Every organization needs discriminators to 'thin the herd'. MM's proposal may be a bit harsh but in the times the AF (and military in general) is facing they make sense. In a better time, maybe not.

In the Army, if you are one of those people being described here you can start planning your exit. The SMA is being very public and very blunt about what kind of troops they plan on going after to get down to objective end strength.

Shrike
02-03-2012, 12:45 PM
Enlisted with 2 year degree= no A1C stripes immediately following basic?
Enlisted with 4 year degree= thanks for serving
Enlisted with masters degree= what are you smoking?
Enlisted with PhD= you're an idiot!
There's that officer arrogance we all love to see. What's funny is that you STILL don't believe you have a holier-than-thou attitude.

Shrike
02-03-2012, 12:50 PM
So, after years and years of the USAF having
a) an up-or-out attitude towards its members, and
b) promoting almost solely based on the Peter Principle

where exactly are we as a service? If this forum is any indication, there's not a lot of confidence in our leader--oops, managementship. If the grumblings at my office are any indication, satisfaction with the current state of the USAF is pretty friggin' low.

So why exactly should we not only stay the course, but make it even more about up or out? Leave this shit to the supervisors and commanders. MeasureMan's TSgt example illustrates exactly what is wrong.

imported_oih82w8
02-03-2012, 01:11 PM
Sounds good to me...weed out the non-hackers and there MAY be some attitude changes coming up in the ranks.

Don't the 0's have a similar issue with "higher education" and nonconformance (dead weight)?

FLAPS
02-03-2012, 01:33 PM
There's that officer arrogance we all love to see. What's funny is that you STILL don't believe you have a holier-than-thou attitude.

I don't have a holier-than-thou attitude. Why would anyone enlist with a Masters or PhD? The pay sucks! Getting this education WHILE enlisted is another thing....an awesome accomplishment.

Gonzo
02-03-2012, 01:37 PM
my biggest concern is, how can a MSgt properly "mentor" anyone if they have failed to fulfill simple expectations of their grade

This is my favorite quote/response from those in your corner.

I am a self imposed non-promotable. I haven't done the things needed to promote myself and I also haven't had a bad night of sleep. The personnel that have worked with/for me have all gone on to do good things with their careers. I actively promote education and PME and all the other things required from good supervisors and mentors. They can learn from my choice of limiting my professional progression and NOT be like me, get their 14 done to fill the block and finish their CCAF. 3 of my last 4 eligible TSgt's have already completed it with me riding their asses. I have drug my Airmen over the ed center and had them sign up for classes. I get how nice a CCAF looks in the eyes of those drunk on the kool-aid. So I do it for those I am leaving behind.

I know my time in the AF is soon to end and I also know how important (typed with a smirk on my face) course 14/CCAF is to my Airmen's career progression so I actively promote it/expect it although I don't have it done myself. Am I a horrible mentor and leader of my personnel? Ask them... I'd bet my retirement that not a one says "yes". Hell, all of my guys from my last unit are hitting me up to come back and pissed that I left (had to, end of controlled tour).

So for every one of "you" that doesn't see me or my kind as an asset to the AF and are no longer useful I will politely tell you and those like you to piss off. I don't care what you think of me but I do care that my folks are taken care of and are being set up for their futures. To me that is all that matters.

Shrike
02-03-2012, 01:46 PM
I don't have a holier-than-thou attitude. Why would anyone enlist with a Masters or PhD? The pay sucks! Getting this education WHILE enlisted is another thing....an awesome accomplishment.

He didn't say someone enlisted with a Masters or PHD. He said "Enlisted with a masters/PHD" meaning an enlisted person with a masters or PHD. I would think with all of that higher edumacation you'd be able to read contextually. Maybe English not so taught good in college yours.

Forsaken Wombat
02-03-2012, 02:01 PM
FLAPS is an officer in the United States Air Force. FLAPS has a commission from the President of the United States. When arguing with FLAPS on the Internet, one must do so at the position of "Attention". If one sees FLAPS come online, he/she must call the Internet to "Attention". FLAPS has over 2,000 flight hours in the C-130, all models. FLAPS is an officer in the United States Air Force.

FLAPS
http://www.vanceairscoop.com/images/uploads/newvanceips8-8-08.jpg


NOT FLAPS
http://www.afweather.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/web/060530-F-9911G-003.jpg

Measure Man
02-03-2012, 02:03 PM
I don't have a holier-than-thou attitude. Why would anyone enlist with a Masters or PhD? The pay sucks! Getting this education WHILE enlisted is another thing....an awesome accomplishment.

Life is not all about how much you get paid.

imported_Sgt HULK
02-03-2012, 02:05 PM
FLAPS is an officer in the United States Air Force. FLAPS has a commission from the President of the United States. When arguing with FLAPS on the Internet, one must do so at the position of "Attention". If one sees FLAPS come online, he/she must call the Internet to "Attention". FLAPS has over 2,000 flight hours in the C-130, all models. FLAPS is an officer in the United States Air Force.

good read, this flaps stuff has me laughing

Gonzo
02-03-2012, 02:06 PM
FLAPS is an officer in the United States Air Force. FLAPS has a commission from the President of the United States. When arguing with FLAPS on the Internet, one must do so at the position of "Attention". If one sees FLAPS come online, he/she must call the Internet to "Attention". FLAPS has over 2,000 flight hours in the C-130, all models. FLAPS is an officer in the United States Air Force.

I was typing at the position of attention... does that count?

Comm Chief
02-03-2012, 02:47 PM
I can't support a blanket "up or out" for MSgts with no CCAF/Crse 14. There are too many good folks in that group. Can't do it without Commander discretion. What are we going to do...discharge ball-busting SNCOs and keep the broken bodies we can't touch? No way, I made Chief standing on the shoulders of some of these guys.

Measure Man
02-03-2012, 03:07 PM
I don't have a holier-than-thou attitude. Why would anyone enlist with a Masters or PhD? The pay sucks! Getting this education WHILE enlisted is another thing....an awesome accomplishment.

To serve his country maybe?

Would you say a guy with a Bachelor's degree who turns down a $4M NFL contract offer to enlist is an "idiot"?

DWWSWWD
02-03-2012, 03:15 PM
Those are things the AF expects of a MSgt who wants to promote. No. They expect it for all MSgts. That said, I'm good with folks refusing to meet these standards. 50% of otherwise eligible MSgts self-eliminate because they refuse to meet these standards. They are not promotable. I took my Speech CLEP, did another thing or two along the way and was promoted. Would certainly have been more difficult if everyone did that.

FLAPS
02-03-2012, 03:20 PM
To serve his country maybe?

Would you say a guy with a Bachelor's degree who turns down a $4M NFL contract offer to enlist is an "idiot"?

Can you not "serve" your country in other capacities besides the military? Turning down a $4M contract, in my opinion, is about the dumbest thing you can do. Take the money, then find ways to serve your country when you are not playing football.

Since we're on the subject of "serving" your country, how many of you would be willing to hang around if retirement pay/bennies were rescinded for all those currently serving. Would you still stick around? Please spare me the "service to country" line. Read the blogs, and you'll find zero evidence of it.

Forsaken Wombat
02-03-2012, 03:23 PM
No. They expect it for all MSgts. That said, I'm good with folks refusing to meet these standards. 50% of otherwise eligible MSgts self-eliminate because they refuse to meet these standards. They are not promotable. I took my Speech CLEP, did another thing or two along the way and was promoted. Would certainly have been more difficult if everyone did that.

I wonder how the Air Force ever managed to get things done when their NCOs and SNCOs focused on their jobs, their missions, and their people?

It's all good; I'm sure when the next "big one" kicks off, our enemies will ignore our hollowed fighter squadrons, our sinewy bomber fleet, and our dispirited enlisted corps who have endured years of "nickle and diming" cut backs coupled with a growing culture of "eat your own" and a slipping emphasis on being a "Technician first"...and instead will quake in their boots at the huge amount of CCAFs and Distance Learning courses our NCOs/SNCOs have accomplished.

Aitrus
02-03-2012, 04:24 PM
Yup...."Do as I say, not as I do" is always a good trait for a supervisor :doh
Why not? AF top-level leadership is doing it all the time. If I, as a leader, spent all my time doing everything I wanted my troops to do just so I could justify my telling them to do it, when would I have time to do my real job?


So, since it that damn easy (which it really is) why are you arguing it?
If it's that damn easy and doesn't mean anything, then why require it? As some sort of "separator"?

Let's pretend the world is a place where oceans are made of Kool-Aide, every nation not allied with us is communist to make it easier to justify war with them, and everybody has their CCAF. What do you use then as a "separator"? And when everybody has met that requirement as well?

My point is that we're losing focus. Our enlisted force's job is to fight war and be technical experts in our fields. We're not supposted to be rank-chasing, legacy-making, rules-lawyering, nit-picking, butt-kissing officers-with-less-pay.

Aitrus
02-03-2012, 04:29 PM
So, what might this little piece of information tell us about someone who hasn't gotten one in 20 years?

Maybe that they care more about their job than about checking boxes to climb a thankless ladder?

BRUWIN
02-03-2012, 04:36 PM
There's another rumor flying that those overdue annual Fire Extinguisher Training will be force retired too. If you are overdue and have 20 years it's too late...they've already locked you out of ADLS. I just tried mine and I was locked out...but I'm retiring next week anyway so no biggie.

hugomk
02-03-2012, 05:05 PM
There's another rumor flying that those overdue annual Fire Extinguisher Training will be force retired too. If you are overdue and have 20 years it's too late...they've already locked you out of ADLS. I just tried mine and I was locked out...but I'm retiring next week anyway so no biggie.

Sh_t. Damn fire extinguisher training. I gues I have to start my retirement paper work.

Aitrus
02-03-2012, 05:14 PM
Sonovacrap! See what I mean? Next thing you know they'll be kicking us out for not having all our pen pockets filled with either blue or black pens (no color mixing authorized). 2 reds authorized for the gatekeepers, and one special "executive" style pen for final signatures on awards and decs for the CCs.

And let's not forget those reflective belts! We need to be as reflective as possible so the Russian spy sattelites can maintain an accurate count of each of us so as to ensure we're meeting our manning goals and not building a secret million man army.

Measure Man
02-03-2012, 05:18 PM
Maybe that they care more about their job than about checking boxes to climb a thankless ladder?

"I care so much about my job that I'm not going to do what my employer expects of me."

Interesting.

Measure Man
02-03-2012, 05:21 PM
There's another rumor flying that those overdue annual Fire Extinguisher Training will be force retired too. If you are overdue and have 20 years it's too late...they've already locked you out of ADLS. I just tried mine and I was locked out...but I'm retiring next week anyway so no biggie.

Point taken.

I think my focus on "agreement" with this was in looking at 20+ year service in a different light than <20 service. Again, raising the bar for who gets to be retained beyond 20.

As mentioned, I personally would start with medically broke folks, rather than this...but I do like the idea that job guarantees are off the table beyond 20...."service at the strict convenience of the AF" as I say.

Kegler
02-03-2012, 05:48 PM
If you think "Do as I say, not as I do" means:


If I, as a leader, spent all my time doing everything I wanted my troops to do just so I could justify my telling them to do it, when would I have time to do my real job?

Then I will quit the discussion as you probably wouldnt understand "If I, as a leader, set the example..."



Let's pretend the world is a place where oceans are made of Kool-Aide, every nation not allied with us is communist to make it easier to justify war with them, and everybody has their CCAF. What do you use then as a "separator"? And when everybody has met that requirement as well?

If you dont think that "separators" have not changed, increased, or been added over the years at all levels, then you havent been around long enough. Stay in a few more years and read the discussions on the "new or revised" separators. Separators have always been there...they just change as our force changes or policy dictates. ie MSgt selected for SNCOA was a separator...no longer because the policy changed. Give it a few a few years...Bachelors will become a separator with the Air University Associate-to-Baccalaureate Cooperative (ABC) program out there


My point is that we're losing focus.

Not gonna argue that one....a statement I do agree with


Our enlisted force's job is to fight war and be technical experts in our fields.

Not quite. Maybe you need a dose of kool-aid and reread 2618 where is states "MSgts are transitioning from being technical experts and first line supervisors to leaders of operational competence..."

Kegler
02-03-2012, 06:18 PM
"I care so much about my job that I'm not going to do what my employer expects of me."

Interesting.

Yup...that is what I got out of it. Also, since the CCAF and Course 14 are so easy....lets compare the endgames...my Chief at 25 retirement pay vs the MSgt at 24 pay. hmmmm about $900 a month. Yeah...its more work that just the CCAF/Course 14 but why would I ever self-eliminate over such easy expectations?

And before you say it...no it is not about the money....but in the end it sure does help.

FLAPS
02-03-2012, 06:29 PM
"I care so much about my job that I'm not going to do what my employer expects of me."

Interesting.

Employers love minimalists, don't they? It's all about "Excellence in 'some' of what we do."

Kegler
02-03-2012, 06:31 PM
Employers love minimalists, don't they? It's all about "Excellence in 'some' of what we do."

Sometimes yes. Makes the choice easy. A. Employee gets to stay at minimum wage B. Employee is fired

Tak
02-03-2012, 06:32 PM
Course 14 + CCAF does not = Chief

Just as getting a 100 on PT and buying Service Dress does not = Chief

They tried to add deployments as a discrimanator, that didn't work, nor did it equal Chief

Gonzo
02-03-2012, 06:35 PM
Yup...that is what I got out of it. Also, since the CCAF and Course 14 are so easy....lets compare the endgames...my Chief at 25 retirement pay vs the MSgt at 24 pay. hmmmm about $900 a month. Yeah...its more work that just the CCAF/Course 14 but why would I ever self-emliminate over such easy expectations?

To me it is not about the money, never has been for me. I would make a terrible SMSgt. I am not suited for it. I need to be with the people, not behind a desk and even now I'm more separated than I'd like to be for what I feel I bring to the table. That is where I make my difference. If handed E-8 today I would kindly say thanks but turn down the stripe, leave me where I know I can make the most difference. There are more important things in life than an extra 900 a month...

What is so wrong with just having kick ass MSgt's? Why MUST we HAVE to want the next stripe? For me there is no dangling carrot out there, no incentive. I know where I do my best work and I have found that sweet spot. The rest who aspire to achieve the next position, good on you. Go for it. I will gladly applaude when you make that next rank and will follow your directions, just don't give me grief that I don't want what you want.

Luvnlife
02-03-2012, 06:45 PM
To me it is not about the money, never has been for me. I would make a terrible SMSgt. I am not suited for it. I need to be with the people, not behind a desk and even now I'm more separated than I'd like to be for what I feel I bring to the table. That is where I make my difference. If handed E-8 today I would kindly say thanks but turn down the stripe, leave me where I know I can make the most difference. There are more important things in life than an extra 900 a month...

What is so wrong with just having kick ass MSgt's? Why MUST we HAVE to want the next stripe? For me there is no dangling carrot out there, no incentive. I know where I do my best work and I have found that sweet spot. The rest who aspire to achieve the next position, good on you. Go for it. I will gladly applaude when you make that next rank and will follow your directions, just don't give me grief that I don't want what you want.

Good one Gonzo, I retired as TSgt intentionally, I didnt want to make MSgt and be removed from my position where I wanted to be as a worker/manager. I didnt want to be put behind a desk writing EPR's/decs/etc, going to meetings every other day. Let me actually work!

The difference between retired TSgt and MSgt pay is probably significant but I dont give a rats ass about the $$, my wife and I started preparing years before for my retirement. I dont have to work and we still enjoy the same lifestyle as we did when I was AD.

BRUWIN
02-03-2012, 07:15 PM
I agree that this whole thing is actually a good idea. I just don't think it's fair the way the Air Force keeps changing rules in the middle of the game. These things should be grandfathered in, not thrown at people in the middle of the game after they have made plans based on different rules that were suddenly changed on them. It's the the recent HYRT changes....people made plans and then we change the rules. It's kinda like a school saying "OK, you need a 65% to pass this test"...so some people study the minumum just to ensure a passing grade. Then...right after they take the test we tell them we changed our mind and now you need a 90%, so you better hope you studied. It really isn't right.

HeyEng
02-03-2012, 08:22 PM
Yup...that is what I got out of it. Also, since the CCAF and Course 14 are so easy....lets compare the endgames...my Chief at 25 retirement pay vs the MSgt at 24 pay. hmmmm about $900 a month. Yeah...its more work that just the CCAF/Course 14 but why would I ever self-eliminate over such easy expectations?

And before you say it...no it is not about the money....but in the end it sure does help.

Retired MSgt that didn't waste time w/ CCAF and/or Course 14 enjoyed his job and didn't spend 18 hours a days doing everything under the sun to get promoted...well, he lives to be 84 years old.

Retired CMSgt went to the ed center twice, got the CCAF (must be a GREAT discriminator since it takes SO MUCH WORK) and completed course 14 10 minutes after MSgt line numbers came out (even though he will HAVE to take the SAME course in residence before too long). He then worked 100 hours a week, had no family life and people didn't like him because he stepped on everyone's crank to make Chief. Well, all that stress and so he only lived to be 63.

Does it matter that the E-9 made $900 a month more than the E-7? I think not.

I am glad that I will be retiring soon...I understand the AF is not just a job...I get that, but the Kool-Aid drinking is freakin' out of control.

Nic
02-03-2012, 08:35 PM
If you went through the NCOA Course 14 is just a refresher of that.Course 14 should be done right after NCOA. Thats what I did. Quick review of the "slides" tested each week walla. It was easy cheezy, except for the Nuke shit.

DWWSWWD
02-03-2012, 08:47 PM
Good one Gonzo, I retired as TSgt intentionally, I didnt want to make MSgt and be removed from my position where I wanted to be as a worker/manager. I didnt want to be put behind a desk writing EPR's/decs/etc, going to meetings every other day. Let me actually work!

I tried to retire as a TSgt. All the politics, ass kissing, extra pay and respect is just not for me. Accidentally made Chief. Oh well.

sandsjames
02-03-2012, 08:53 PM
I don't have a holier-than-thou attitude. Why would anyone enlist with a Masters or PhD? The pay sucks! Getting this education WHILE enlisted is another thing....an awesome accomplishment.

Maybe because they want to serve their country, but don't feel like being a DB officer.

giggawatt
02-03-2012, 08:53 PM
If you went through the NCOA Course 14 is just a refresher of that.Course 14 should be done right after NCOA. Thats what I did. Quick review of the "slides" tested each week walla. It was easy cheezy, except for the Nuke shit.

Super easy!

sandsjames
02-03-2012, 08:53 PM
And by DB, of course, I meant dirt bag.

technomage1
02-03-2012, 09:08 PM
Hey, why stop at forced retirement? Then these sh!tbags will still be costing us money with their retirement pay. Just kick them out! And why stop at course 14 and CCAF? All SNCOs who don't score an excellent on the PT test and be enrolled for their Master's degree should be booted out too. Speeding ticket = out. Forgot a button on the uniform = out. Get a cold and miss work = out.

I have my course 14, CCAF, and am perfectly perfect in every way every day. If you're not like me get the F out.

Note: the above was sarcastic. Just in case there was any question. Please don't mail me ticking packages or anything.

Kegler
02-03-2012, 09:15 PM
Retired CMSgt went to the ed center twice, got the CCAF (must be a GREAT discriminator since it takes SO MUCH WORK) and completed course 14 10 minutes after MSgt line numbers came out (even though he will HAVE to take the SAME course in residence before too long). He then worked 100 hours a week, had no family life and people didn't like him because he stepped on everyone's crank to make Chief. Well, all that stress and so he only lived to be 63.


If I knew making Chief was how you explained it...I wouldnt have made it. If you actually think those are the requirements...you are definitely WRONG. Definitely wasnt that hard. I mustve been an accident like DW then!

BRUWIN
02-03-2012, 09:26 PM
If I knew making Chief was how you explained it...I wouldnt have made it. If you actually think those are the requirements...you are definitely WRONG. Definitely wasnt that hard. I mustve been an accident like DW then!

I think he's talking about me Kegs...I stepped on everybody that got in my way, just ran them over. The 100 hours a week thing though? I probably told people that but I can't really recall ever doing it.

Measure Man
02-03-2012, 10:22 PM
Yup...that is what I got out of it. Also, since the CCAF and Course 14 are so easy....lets compare the endgames...my Chief at 25 retirement pay vs the MSgt at 24 pay. hmmmm about $900 a month. Yeah...its more work that just the CCAF/Course 14 but why would I ever self-eliminate over such easy expectations?

And before you say it...no it is not about the money....but in the end it sure does help.

I would never fault someone for going after money...heck, that's why I'm working today. I could survive probably off my retirement...but I'm gonna earn some more money while I'm in prime working age.

That's not the same as saying someone who chooses a life of low pay for doing what they enjoy or feel called to do is "an idiot" (FLAPS)

Aitrus
02-03-2012, 10:22 PM
If you think "Do as I say, not as I do" means:

Then I will quit the discussion as you probably wouldnt understand "If I, as a leader, set the example..."
Oh, I understand "set the example" alright. If I set goals for myself that matter to me and achieve them and encourage my troops to do the same, then how am I not setting the example? Or do you hold the opinion that unless I do my absolute utmost to meet the AF's brand of "ideal leader" then I'm not setting the correct and approved goals for myself? If you believe that, then you must have stock in blue kool-aid.


If you dont think that "separators" have not changed, increased, or been added over the years at all levels, then you havent been around long enough. Stay in a few more years and read the discussions on the "new or revised" separators. Separators have always been there...they just change as our force changes or policy dictates. ie MSgt selected for SNCOA was a separator...no longer because the policy changed. Give it a few a few years...Bachelors will become a separator with the Air University Associate-to-Baccalaureate Cooperative (ABC) program out there
I understand that separators have changed over time, but it does make me wonder how we decided who to promote and who not to back in the day. Lottery? Arm wrestling? Wet T-shirt contest? Hot dog eating race? Beer chugging?

Either make us all officers, or let us stay enlisted.


Not quite. Maybe you need a dose of kool-aid and reread 2618 where is states "MSgts are transitioning from being technical experts and first line supervisors to leaders of operational competence..."
If your entire leadership knowledge comes from 2618, then you need to take a smaller dose of kool-aid. AFIs don't hold all the answers. How does a CCAF assist our members in "transitioning from being technical experts"? It doesn't. Does one magically get to be a "leader of operational competence" by completing Course 14? Of course not. Those are assumptions that don't fit with the way the world really works, yet Big Blue seems content to just let that sentiment flow. Why? Because that kind of box checking is what got them to the top. And just look at what those "leaders" are doing to the Force. Do we really want to encourage that kind of thinking?

Leadership comes in many forms, and operational competence comes only from experience. One can accomplish both of those goals through lots of experience and savvy. We can be mentored into those skills through sharp older guys who've been there and done that. Sadly, many of those are disappearing and are being replaced with the "I'm a Fit-To-Fight Warrior! Aim High! Fly, Fight, Win! Air Power!" types who continue to foster the AF's identity crisis with well-intentioned, but misguided efforts like the 2618, among other things.

Measure Man
02-03-2012, 10:25 PM
Retired MSgt that didn't waste time w/ CCAF and/or Course 14 enjoyed his job and didn't spend 18 hours a days doing everything under the sun to get promoted...well, he lives to be 84 years old.

Retired CMSgt went to the ed center twice, got the CCAF (must be a GREAT discriminator since it takes SO MUCH WORK) and completed course 14 10 minutes after MSgt line numbers came out (even though he will HAVE to take the SAME course in residence before too long). He then worked 100 hours a week, had no family life and people didn't like him because he stepped on everyone's crank to make Chief. Well, all that stress and so he only lived to be 63.

Does it matter that the E-9 made $900 a month more than the E-7? I think not.

I am glad that I will be retiring soon...I understand the AF is not just a job...I get that, but the Kool-Aid drinking is freakin' out of control.

Wow...I had no idea getting my CCAF was gonna kill me.

This IS outta control...we need a Surgeon General's warning at the Ed. Office.

FLAPS
02-03-2012, 10:32 PM
That's not the same as saying someone who chooses a life of low pay for doing what they enjoy or feel called to do is "an idiot" (FLAPS)

I said enlisting in the AF with a Masters or PhD is an idiot. There's a reason why they got their Masters and PhD in the first place, and it wasn't so they could turn wrenches as an A1C. I commend anyone who can find a job they LOVE, even if the pay is lower. However, I can't remember the last time I've read a post from someone on any thread who stated that they ENJOYED their job. So far, I've read nothing but complaints about how much the AF sucks...from the same people who want to keep their jobs, yet think their employer's desire for them to get a CCAF or Crs 14 is a joke.

Tak
02-03-2012, 10:33 PM
FLAPS, back when I was at holloman and taking classes around 95/96 I had a PhD instructor.
He was from space warning squadron there and had put on msgt, he was a black guy, taught with
Central Texas college...I bumped into a guy from his sq and said "hey, you guys got that enlisted
Guy with a phd"...his response..."that guys an a$$hole"...

Education makes people more eduated, not better.
Your just an enlisted dude in officer clothes.

Forsaken Wombat
02-03-2012, 10:44 PM
I said enlisting in the AF with a Masters or PhD is an idiot. There's a reason why they got their Masters and PhD in the first place, and it wasn't so they could turn wrenches as an A1C. I commend anyone who can find a job they LOVE, even if the pay is lower. However, I can't remember the last time I've read a post from someone on any thread who stated that they ENJOYED their job. So far, I've read nothing but complaints about how much the AF sucks...

The complaints you read are about the idiocy inherent in the way the Air Force has been doing business (funny, a military branch doing "business"), which is a result of increasingly inept and hollow leadership from our senior Enlisted and our officer corps. No, not all of them are bad, but enough of the bad ones are in important enough positions to wreak havoc.

The complaints are about the minute and finer inner-workings of the Air Force that never cease to amaze and seem to drive the rank & file crazy. PT fiasco. EPR bullcrap. The rise of "style" (volunteering, bake sales, classes) over "substance" (knowing your job, being an expert in your AFSC, being worth your stripes as a man/woman).

That's the small stuff. And that's nothing to be proud of because it's quite sad that petty bullshit such as that exists in a profession of arms.

It's the big stuff that matters - serving your nation, giving something back to the Republic in the form of military service, being part of something that less than 1% of the population can claim to have stepped up and been a part of, sacrificing so that others who didn't want to, don't have to - that's what some people think is worth giving up the big bucks for. Even some craptastic latte' drinking Maroon 5-listening officer such as yourself is a part of that, and it'd be nice if you'd actually recognize that instead of being a jackass with a commission from the President of the United States.

FLAPS
02-03-2012, 10:45 PM
FLAPS, back when I was at holloman and taking classes around 95/96 I had a PhD instructor.
He was from space warning squadron there and had put on msgt, he was a black guy, taught with
Central Texas college...I bumped into a guy from his sq and said "hey, you guys got that enlisted
Guy with a phd"...his response..."that guys an a$$hole"...

Education makes people more eduated, not better.
Your just an enlisted dude in officer clothes.

Honestly, I think I remember about 5-10% of what I was taught in my Bachelors or Masters program. With that said, the experience made me a better person because it introduced me to a lot of ideas that have helped shaped how I view things today. On a more positive side, having checked these boxes, I have a better chance of getting a job interview. But yes, if you want to claim I'm jsut an enlisted dude in officer's clothes, I'll proudly take that as a compliment!

FLAPS
02-03-2012, 10:54 PM
Even some craptastic latte' drinking Maroon 5-listening officer such as yourself is a part of that, and it'd be nice if you'd actually recognize that instead of being a jackass with a commission from the President of the United States.

I hate Latte's. In my last assignment I spent $900 on beer and steaks to thank my guys for getting me my promotion, and paid for monthly BBQs and beer for them. Over the last several years I have debated on getting out of the AF due to all the BS we all have to put up with, while struggling to convince myself to stay for the "service" reasons you've mentioned...all of which are great, until the AF gives me more reasons to believe that people and mission aren't the priority. As my boss (2-star) yesterday was giving me my DP for my upcoming 2-yr BTZ board to Lt Col, he reminded me to continue being myself and not worry about the BS...and that I can still make the REAL difference that I try to make each day for our enlisted force. I know on these boards you guys really think you know me, but you have no fucking clue. If I actually thought I was "better" than enlisted and didn't care, do you really think I'd waste my time on these boards? Really?

sandsjames
02-03-2012, 11:14 PM
I said enlisting in the AF with a Masters or PhD is an idiot. There's a reason why they got their Masters and PhD in the first place, and it wasn't so they could turn wrenches as an A1C. I commend anyone who can find a job they LOVE, even if the pay is lower. However, I can't remember the last time I've read a post from someone on any thread who stated that they ENJOYED their job. So far, I've read nothing but complaints about how much the AF sucks...from the same people who want to keep their jobs, yet think their employer's desire for them to get a CCAF or Crs 14 is a joke.

I love my job. I love turning wrenches. The stuff about the AF sucking has to do with the stuff like the CCAF and 14 "requirements". I'm also pretty sure that most other people on here really like their jobs too. But we don't get to do our job (and now I'm waiting for the "yeah, but all that other stuff is your job").

Tak
02-03-2012, 11:18 PM
Honestly, I think I remember about 5-10% of what I was taught in my Bachelors or Masters program. With that said, the experience made me a better person because it introduced me to a lot of ideas that have helped shaped how I view things today. On a more positive side, having checked these boxes, I have a better chance of getting a job interview. But yes, if you want to claim I'm jsut an enlisted dude in officer's clothes, I'll proudly take that as a compliment!

I threw out the enlisted plug, to see if you'd jump all over it and you did.
You left the cool kid club years ago. You are not the backbone of anything
You surrendered yours. I bet you tell people your enlisted folk love you.
Great getting your education, it shows you weren't focusing on your enlisted
Career path, you were focus on dollars. First step to recovery is admitting
Your the problem. stay off enlisted front street and go back to your alley.

FLAPS
02-03-2012, 11:18 PM
I love my job. I love turning wrenches. The stuff about the AF sucking has to do with the stuff like the CCAF and 14 "requirements". I'm also pretty sure that most other people on here really like their jobs too. But we don't get to do our job (and now I'm waiting for the "yeah, but all that other stuff is your job").

I had a MSgt pro-super who worked for me who kicked ass in his job. I told him that if this was Delta Airlines I've give him an immediate raise, but since we're in the AF I can't even think about promoting him because he hasn't met AF standards...CCAF, Crs 14, passing PT score. That's the difference between US and the "other" companies. Do I always agree? Hell no...which is why I've struggled with the decision to stay in the AF. At the end of the day, my opinion will not get our guys promoted, only meeting AF standards will.

FLAPS
02-03-2012, 11:22 PM
Your the problem. stay off enlisted front street and go back to your alley.

No thanks. I'll keep doing what I'm doing, which includes weeding out shitbags. Are you a shitbag too? I have the means to take care of that. Do you?

Tak
02-03-2012, 11:41 PM
No thanks. I'll keep doing what I'm doing, which includes weeding out shitbags. Are you a shitbag too? I have the means to take care of that. Do you?

You are right, as a sq supr of 45 enlisted, without a graduate degree I had no way
To "take care of that"...I choose the enlisted way, which was to take care of the people.
Sadly, it appears you got a tsgt stripe, which was wasted when you became an officer.
So you agree that officers over 20 without a graduate degree should be kicked out.

Just being an officer doesn't mean you control everything. Are you a cc? My guess is a major,
Now that would be funny. A worthless prior enlisted major, never going
To see lt col and probably a maintenance officer, to make it even more of a joke,
A back officer major.

BRUWIN
02-04-2012, 01:33 AM
I admit it right now...I am 3 classes from my degree and it's made me dumber as the classes go by. I could probably get by fine in the O world being dumb but in the E world dumb could mean death. I am serious...after this experience I will not get a Masters. I can't risk doing anything more stupider than some of the stuff I've done these last few years. Education is scary.

Forsaken Wombat
02-04-2012, 01:47 AM
I admit it right now...I am 3 classes from my degree and it's made me dumber as the classes go by. I could probably get by fine in the O world being dumb but in the E world dumb could mean death. I am serious...after this experience I will not get a Masters. I can't risk doing anything more stupider than some of the stuff I've done these last few years. Education is scary.


Liar. You probably bought your degree for $99 from the Degree Store. Either that or you commissioned a team of A1Cs and SrA to build you a diploma utilizing PowerPoint, and the winning design would earn that Airman a ride on your lap.

ScarlettGTO
02-04-2012, 01:52 AM
Liar. You probably bought your degree for $99 from the Degree Store. Either that or you commissioned a team of A1Cs and SrA to build you a diploma utilizing PowerPoint, and the winning design would earn that Airman a ride on your lap.

........is that Gurney style lap ride or a Santa style lap ride?

Big difference.

BRUWIN
02-04-2012, 02:01 AM
Liar. You probably bought your degree for $99 from the Degree Store. Either that or you commissioned a team of A1Cs and SrA to build you a diploma utilizing PowerPoint, and the winning design would earn that Airman a ride on your lap.

Dude, it's a degree from an elite school. Keep it up and don't bother running to my Fortune 500 company looking for a job when you get out.

Forsaken Wombat
02-04-2012, 02:13 AM
Dude, it's a degree from an elite school. Keep it up and don't bother running to my Fortune 500 company looking for a job when you get out.

The only company that would ever hire you would be Dunder-Mifflin/Sabre.

BRUWIN
02-04-2012, 02:49 AM
The only company that would ever hire you would be Dunder-Mifflin/Sabre.

With my eduction and proven track record that's kinda what I want to do...find a company that's stuck in the past and walk in and shoot it straight to the top. I'd prefer the challenge.

FLAPS
02-04-2012, 11:41 AM
You are right, as a sq supr of 45 enlisted, without a graduate degree I had no way
To "take care of that"...I choose the enlisted way, which was to take care of the people.
Sadly, it appears you got a tsgt stripe, which was wasted when you became an officer.
So you agree that officers over 20 without a graduate degree should be kicked out.

Just being an officer doesn't mean you control everything. Are you a cc? My guess is a major,
Now that would be funny. A worthless prior enlisted major, never going
To see lt col and probably a maintenance officer, to make it even more of a joke,
A back officer major.

It's hard to put a time limit on kicking officers out for not having a Masters and PME done, which I'll include. Many officers already have 15-17 years of prior service, so not sure it would be fair to tell one guy he has 3 years to get it done, but another (non prior guy) has 20. That being said, we do have an up or out system in place where you get two chances for Major, four for Lt Col (includes two BTZ chances).

If you meet your Majors board without having completed SOS (PME), there's a good chance you won't get promoted. Granted, in-promotion zone (IPZ) for a Major is around 95% and happens around the 10 year point, but if you get passed over the first time you have about a 2% chance of promotion the next year (APZ). This happened to a prior-enlisted Capt that works down the hall from me and his retirement ceremony is in two months. He told me it came down to him not having his Masters degree done.

For Lt Col IPZ, if you don't have your Masters or ACSC (PME) completed, you won't get promoted. If you fail to get promoted the next year (APZ), then with most AFSCs in today's AF you pack your bags. At this point, you might have 16 years TIS, or if you're prior enlisted then you are lucky to be able to retire.

Orion
02-04-2012, 12:01 PM
I'm hearing rumors that SNCOs without a Course 14 or CCAF and retirement eligilbe will have to retire or complete the requirements in 12 months. Having said that, 65% of the SNCOs my group have not completed both Crs 14 and a CCAF.

Anybody heard this?

No, not official AF Policy, however, EPR & Dec inflation has been one of the agenda items being pushed from CMSgt Roy thru the Command Chiefs. SNCO EPR's routinely close out at the Sq/CC when they don't have CCAF and or C-14. Some are marked down if they have been S/R eligible for some time. A CCAF and C-14 have been the expectation since the mid 1990's, only recently did they make it a requirement for S/R endorsement.

Considering that Ed Transcripts are part of the package, I know a SNCO EPR Will never make it past the MXG/CC without CCAF and or C-14. The only break they will get is if they are not S/R eligible and can prove an active course load.

Shrike
02-04-2012, 01:01 PM
To me it is not about the money, never has been for me. I would make a terrible SMSgt. I am not suited for it. I need to be with the people, not behind a desk and even now I'm more separated than I'd like to be for what I feel I bring to the table. That is where I make my difference. If handed E-8 today I would kindly say thanks but turn down the stripe, leave me where I know I can make the most difference. There are more important things in life than an extra 900 a month...

What is so wrong with just having kick ass MSgt's? Why MUST we HAVE to want the next stripe? For me there is no dangling carrot out there, no incentive. I know where I do my best work and I have found that sweet spot. The rest who aspire to achieve the next position, good on you. Go for it. I will gladly applaude when you make that next rank and will follow your directions, just don't give me grief that I don't want what you want.

Well said. Back when I made MSgt I had to attend the SNCO Enhancement Seminar, a three-day "mini-PME" (I got more out of those three days than I did all of NCOA and SNCOA combined). At one point there was a panel of chiefs talking about promotion to E-8 & E-9. They said the USAF NEEDS a large number of their MSgts to stay MSgts and use their experience and knowledge down at the tactical level.

Shrike
02-04-2012, 01:10 PM
I said enlisting in the AF with a Masters or PhD is an idiot.

And, as I pointed out, you completely misunderstood what TAK was saying. It's okay to admit you made an error. They're not going to make you resign your commission for making a contextual reading mistake.


There's a reason why they got their Masters and PhD in the first place, and it wasn't so they could turn wrenches as an A1C. I commend anyone who can find a job they LOVE, even if the pay is lower. However, I can't remember the last time I've read a post from someone on any thread who stated that they ENJOYED their job. So far, I've read nothing but complaints about how much the AF sucks...from the same people who want to keep their jobs, yet think their employer's desire for them to get a CCAF or Crs 14 is a joke.
CCAF and CRS 14 are jokes in and of themselves. Therefore, the increasing emphasis on them IS a joke.

Now, having said that, both are relatively easy to knock out. If people are aware of the consequences of not having them, but are still contributing greatly to the mission as judged by their supervisory chain, then Big Blue needs to STFU.

FLAPS
02-04-2012, 01:25 PM
And, as I pointed out, you completely misunderstood what TAK was saying. It's okay to admit you made an error. They're not going to make you resign your commission for making a contextual reading mistake.


CCAF and CRS 14 are jokes in and of themselves. Therefore, the increasing emphasis on them IS a joke.

Now, having said that, both are relatively easy to knock out. If people are aware of the consequences of not having them, but are still contributing greatly to the mission as judged by their supervisory chain, then Big Blue needs to STFU.

Yes, I made a mistake, which happens a lot when I try to read too fast through a comment.

I agree CCAF and Crs 14 are both a joke (just like SOS and ACSC by correspondance), but my opinion doesn't matter. The AF wants these accomplished.

Tak
02-04-2012, 03:03 PM
Yes, I made a mistake, which happens a lot when I try to read too fast through a comment.

I agree CCAF and Crs 14 are both a joke (just like SOS and ACSC by correspondance), but my opinion doesn't matter. The AF wants these accomplished.

Funny, you admit a mistake...then use the excuse of reading too fast.
Here's the issue, right now officially sncos have 72 months to complete
Course 14, so going over 20 is a non factor. If one completes is by 72
Months, then they meet the AF standard, just like getting a 75 on the pt
Test and not 100. Going above and beyond and achieving perfection
Is not a standard, except in the nuke world, which is faulty. At least the
Enlisted side has a written policy saying, no CCAF and no course 14, no
Sre...but people have still made senior and chief without, just in shrinking
Numbers over time. Is their a written policy needing SOS school and
A masters degree. Couple years back a msgt retired at 25 years with no
Course 14, they tried to deny ret Dec, but commander got him it. It's all
Politics...and based on AF pulse, case in point the majors booted.

cloudFFVII
02-04-2012, 03:37 PM
I only had to take 1 math course to finish my CCAF, after all my job credits and CLEPing English and Speech, and passing the DANTES on Sociology (I read 1/2 of a book, seriously) and History of the Civil War (something that is a big interest of mine).

I could see someone who is a poor test-taker having trouble with that approach but look, it really isn't that tough to complete the CCAF. Course 14, that just takes about 2 months of concentrated effort to secure your options from MSgt on.

I've always tried to keep the mantra "Don't close any doors" in the forefront of my mind. As the one individual posted, I'm not certain I would be a good SMSgt either. But I DO know I am growing into being a MSgt and I think this role will suit me greatly. Money is not everything: Preparing those who are going to be the TSgt's and MSgt's of the future IS my job. And that's going to determine, in my small neck of the AF, if the mission succeeds or fails. Still...if God wants me to be a SMSgt he will let me know when and if I reach that point. If I don't, I'm 100% content to take my retirement and disability, go do a 9 to 5 job, get paid close to the same I do now, and enjoy a life of comfort and far less stress.

Kegler
02-04-2012, 06:49 PM
To me it is not about the money, never has been for me. I would make a terrible SMSgt. I am not suited for it. I need to be with the people, not behind a desk and even now I'm more separated than I'd like to be for what I feel I bring to the table. That is where I make my difference. If handed E-8 today I would kindly say thanks but turn down the stripe, leave me where I know I can make the most difference. There are more important things in life than an extra 900 a month...

What is so wrong with just having kick ass MSgt's? Why MUST we HAVE to want the next stripe? For me there is no dangling carrot out there, no incentive. I know where I do my best work and I have found that sweet spot. The rest who aspire to achieve the next position, good on you. Go for it. I will gladly applaude when you make that next rank and will follow your directions, just don't give me grief that I don't want what you want.

I see your stance and dont disregard it. However, I have found people with your demeanor usually make the best SMSgts. They tend to stay more engaged with the force and become a huge well needed shit filter from the top. Dont sell yourself short with "I would make a terrible SMSgt". My main point throughout this forum only one person (CloudFFVII) has said...dont ever burn any bridges...you never know when or if you will ever need it. With these 2 things being so simple and easy to do (never said they are the end all be all important things IMHO...just said easy), why burn this bridge....hell...if you have to burn one...make it a big one, not the piddly simple things. I had a 22 1/2 year Kick Ass MSgt come to me about a year ago who had the same demeanor as you and ask how he could turn things around to be promoted. When I asked why the change...the story was devastating. It was an unforseen huge family medical problem that had ripped through his family. Now he needed the AF more for stability and medical care. He had been the "fuck the CCAF/Course 14 guy, I am happy with where I am. Now, unforseen circumstances had caused him to rethink it....but way too late. He burned the simple bridges early.

Now, if you kick ass MSgts want to have the chance change the ways of the blue kool aid drinking crowd you can't to it from the middle...you have to do it from a topside position. Other than that...all you can do from the middle is bitch about it.

Kegler
02-04-2012, 07:28 PM
If your entire leadership knowledge comes from 2618, then you need to take a smaller dose of kool-aid. AFIs don't hold all the answers. How does a CCAF assist our members in "transitioning from being technical experts"? It doesn't. Does one magically get to be a "leader of operational competence" by completing Course 14? Of course not. Those are assumptions that don't fit with the way the world really works, yet Big Blue seems content to just let that sentiment flow. Why? Because that kind of box checking is what got them to the top. And just look at what those "leaders" are doing to the Force. Do we really want to encourage that kind of thinking?

You are the one that said "Our enlisted force's job is to fight war and be technical experts in our fields" I merely pointed out the falacy of the latter half of that statement. Our enlisted force's job is to be technical experts in our field...to a certain point. We pay SSgt's and TSgts to do that job. While as a SNCO you must maintain technical expertise...not your main focus anymore. If I or my boss needed that indepth of an explanation...I let the SSgt/TSgt do that. Way less confusing than me explaining it. I never said that CCAF and Course 14 will make you a better leader. You ASSUMED that all on your own. Remember, if you want to change leadership...you have to become leadership...again...other than that...you are just bitching

Tak
02-04-2012, 07:44 PM
He's a wanker.

SamAdams
02-05-2012, 12:22 AM
So, what might this little piece of information tell us about someone who hasn't gotten one in 20 years?

Not a damn thing. I got my CCAF AFTER I made SMSgt at 22 years. Smoke that! :)

Make sure to berate me though since you've got it all figured out.

SamAdams
02-05-2012, 12:33 AM
We are enlisted...if we needed degrees, make us officers and pay us accordingly.
To make us need degrees without pay is crazy.

This trumps all other arguments. Degrees are arbitrary for the enlisted force. Get one for after AF stuff if you want to, but they are not necessary for any enlisted to do their job.

SamAdams
02-05-2012, 12:42 AM
This is my favorite quote/response from those in your corner.

I am a self imposed non-promotable. I haven't done the things needed to promote myself and I also haven't had a bad night of sleep. The personnel that have worked with/for me have all gone on to do good things with their careers. I actively promote education and PME and all the other things required from good supervisors and mentors. They can learn from my choice of limiting my professional progression and NOT be like me, get their 14 done to fill the block and finish their CCAF. 3 of my last 4 eligible TSgt's have already completed it with me riding their asses. I have drug my Airmen over the ed center and had them sign up for classes. I get how nice a CCAF looks in the eyes of those drunk on the kool-aid. So I do it for those I am leaving behind.

I know my time in the AF is soon to end and I also know how important (typed with a smirk on my face) course 14/CCAF is to my Airmen's career progression so I actively promote it/expect it although I don't have it done myself. Am I a horrible mentor and leader of my personnel? Ask them... I'd bet my retirement that not a one says "yes". Hell, all of my guys from my last unit are hitting me up to come back and pissed that I left (had to, end of controlled tour).

So for every one of "you" that doesn't see me or my kind as an asset to the AF and are no longer useful I will politely tell you and those like you to piss off. I don't care what you think of me but I do care that my folks are taken care of and are being set up for their futures. To me that is all that matters.

Well fucking said!

RidgeRunner
02-05-2012, 03:32 AM
I surely hope you are joking, not for the 12 month requirement, about 65% of your SNCOs not having required qualifications for promotion. I would not bother trying to get your CCAF or your Course 14 done; cannot see any room for folks who do things last minute and only when forced.

Outback 1982
02-05-2012, 03:06 PM
Move along, nothing here but the real AF and standards......

FLAPS
02-05-2012, 04:37 PM
This trumps all other arguments. Degrees are arbitrary for the enlisted force. Get one for after AF stuff if you want to, but they are not necessary for any enlisted to do their job.

Fair enough. Then you don't have a problem eliminating enlisted TA altogether, right?

imported_DannyJ
02-05-2012, 09:24 PM
Fair enough. Then you don't have a problem eliminating enlisted TA altogether, right?

i sure ass hell don't. WTF is the GI Bill for?

MaintChief
02-05-2012, 09:35 PM
I no longer have a horse in this race, but let me give you guys some advice. I retired last year as a CMSgt with 30 years AD. Do you know what my retired pay every month is? It is enough that I don't have to worry about the roof over my head and the food in my belly for the rest of my life as long as Congress doesn't fuck me over. I never planned to get to CMSgt, it kinda fell in my lap. But I sure as fuck didn't throw any artificial road-blocks up in my way, either.

1. Finished CCAF in 1995, as a TSgt with 14 years in.
2. Finished course 14 in 1998, same year I put on MSgt. At that time we only had 12 months to do the course, it was the new CD based course. I ignored it all year until down to the last 2 weeks before the course expiration. I did all volumes in under 10 days. Got an end of course of 84, I believe.
3. My supervisors from the time I put on TSgt ensured I knew what the requirements were to make the next stripe.
4. NEVER, EVER burn a bridge that you may have to run back across.
5. Course 14 and CCAF serve as discriminators for your bosses when they get to choose who will be getting the plum promotable positions in a squadron, at least in aircraft maintenance.

I obtained my BS in Info Tech from a real school as a SMSgt. That was a personal goal and prep for retirement. Looked good on the EPR but that wasn't why I did it.

I retired last year, and work for a DoD contractor. They could care less about course 12/14, CCAF, etc. They did care about by BS degree and 30 years working avionics/airplanes/flightlines.

Here is your take-away. My gross pay as a CMSgt at 30 is $4500 a month. Ask a recently retired MSgt with 20 or 22 years in what their gross is. Do the math. It allows flexibility and security in a very challenging employment environment. Don't shoot yourselves in the foot!

Measure Man
02-06-2012, 04:06 AM
Not a damn thing. I got my CCAF AFTER I made SMSgt at 22 years. Smoke that! :)

Probably before the SRE rules changed i'm sure...but yeah, we're all very proud of you.


Make sure to berate me though since you've got it all figured out.

Look, it should be obvious that before it was all but mandatory to have a CCAF to make SMSgt, then it wasn't as big of a deal to have it...things are different now.

Different times, different deal. What? You wanna now show how unimportant the CCAF is by showing how none of the Charter Chiefs had one?

Gonzo
02-06-2012, 11:54 AM
I see your stance and dont disregard it. However, I have found people with your demeanor usually make the best SMSgts. They tend to stay more engaged with the force and become a huge well needed shit filter from the top. Dont sell yourself short with "I would make a terrible SMSgt". My main point throughout this forum only one person (CloudFFVII) has said...dont ever burn any bridges...you never know when or if you will ever need it.

I have heard that before too, from my folks and those above me but I'll be fine where I am. I agree, don't burn bridges. Never planned on it but it is what it is now and I am ok with it. I'll slowly move on into the sunset and become the dependant and let my wife supplement my retirement by her making Chief. :D

SamAdams
02-07-2012, 05:28 AM
Probably before the SRE rules changed i'm sure...but yeah, we're all very proud of you.



Look, it should be obvious that before it was all but mandatory to have a CCAF to make SMSgt, then it wasn't as big of a deal to have it...things are different now.

Different times, different deal. What? You wanna now show how unimportant the CCAF is by showing how none of the Charter Chiefs had one?

C'mon, you know I wasn't looking for approval or bragging (22 year SMSgt isn't really burning up the charts now is it?!) My point was a counter to what I took as a flawed logical conclusion on your part. You actually made my point in your responses. Different times, etc. The quality of someone isn't dependent on an arbitrary discriminator...something that every younger generation doesn't seem to understand. "New is always better and the old ways suck"...

When I made it (2006), CCAF/Crs 14 (or whatever it was when I did it, can't remember) was a very "important" discriminator for SRE on the EPR. Not mandatory yet but very close to being so. Depended on your supervision as to getting it or not. The good thing was that duty performance could (and did in my case) trump the fact that I did not have my CCAF yet. So what did the fact that I was over 20 and didn't have my CCAF yet say about me? N-O-T-H-I-N-G. It's sad to see the AF losing out on many qualified, great leaders just because of this silly, unnecessary, arbitrary, mandatory requirement.

I was still in when it all became mandatory, so I understand how things are now and you bet I would have done what was necessary to keep my options open if need be. Just trying to point out that the "degree" doesn't make the man. :)

SamAdams
02-07-2012, 05:34 AM
Fair enough. Then you don't have a problem eliminating enlisted TA altogether, right?

I didn't say I was against the CCAF or higher education. All I said was that to make it mandatory was the wrong policy.

FLAPS
02-07-2012, 09:48 AM
I didn't say I was against the CCAF or higher education. All I said was that to make it mandatory was the wrong policy.

That's fine. How about this suggestion? Shut down CCAF altogether and eliminate TA! Seems like an obvious savings for something that shouldn't be "required," right?

imported_DannyJ
02-07-2012, 11:36 AM
That's fine. How about this suggestion? Shut down CCAF altogether and eliminate TA! Seems like an obvious savings for something that shouldn't be "required," right?

Agreed. However, I do not agree on putting people out at 20!

DWWSWWD
02-07-2012, 01:25 PM
Just trying to point out that the "degree" doesn't make the man. :) Neither does a good score on my WAPS test say anything about my ability to be a good Chief. When you put it together with all of the other discriminators it does say something. I seriously question the judgement of someone that steadfastly refuses to do these two things because they do not value it. This military thing is not about what we personally value.

sandsjames
02-07-2012, 02:24 PM
Neither does a good score on my WAPS test say anything about my ability to be a good Chief. When you put it together with all of the other discriminators it does say something. I seriously question the judgement of someone that steadfastly refuses to do these two things because they do not value it. This military thing is not about what we personally value.

Agreed. And this is exactly the reason "they" need to quit preaching to us on how much they care about us, our families, and our careers. I think most peoples issue (from reading a lot of posts) is that the AF bullshits us. If they would just come out and tell us how they are going to use us however they see fit, that our family is not their concern, and that we are not that important as individuals, then many would move on and do what needs to be done. It's the constant double talk by the politician SNCO's and O's that raises so many issues. We're just tired of them pissing on our leg and then telling us it's raining.

FLAPS
02-07-2012, 03:07 PM
Agreed. And this is exactly the reason "they" need to quit preaching to us on how much they care about us, our families, and our careers. I think most peoples issue (from reading a lot of posts) is that the AF bullshits us. If they would just come out and tell us how they are going to use us however they see fit, that our family is not their concern, and that we are not that important as individuals, then many would move on and do what needs to be done. It's the constant double talk by the politician SNCO's and O's that raises so many issues. We're just tired of them pissing on our leg and then telling us it's raining.

How's this? Embrace the suck, and get back to work. You're right, we don't care about you or your family, just your ability to show up to work on time and earn the paycheck that we cannot promise you each month.

sandsjames
02-07-2012, 03:38 PM
How's this? Embrace the suck, and get back to work. You're right, we don't care about you or your family, just your ability to show up to work on time and earn the paycheck that we cannot promise you each month.

That would be much better, but it needs to come from real managementship, not a prior enlisted who drives a volkswagon cabriolet. Now if you can set up a basewide mandatory briefing to tell me these things, it would have a lot more impact.

Blue Warrior
02-07-2012, 03:54 PM
I don't agree with forcing people out prior to their high-year tenure, but getting that CCAF and Course 14 knocked out should definitely be high on the list of priorities for any aspiring SNCO. It just makes you a better person and a better leader!

SamAdams
02-07-2012, 04:23 PM
I don't agree with forcing people out prior to their high-year tenure, but getting that CCAF and Course 14 knocked out should definitely be high on the list of priorities for any aspiring SNCO. It just makes you a better person and a better leader!

To be competitive for promotion and for a general improvement to yourself as a whole, then I would agree with you. But to jump to the "CCAF= better leader" is a stretch. Don't be so quick to swallow the company line!

sandsjames
02-07-2012, 04:25 PM
To be competitive for promotion and for a general improvement to yourself as a whole, then I would agree with you. But to jump to the "CCAF= better leader" is a stretch. Don't be so quick to swallow the company line!

I think the only line being swallowed here is the one attached to the bait you are swallowing on Blue Warrior's fishing expedition.

Measure Man
02-07-2012, 04:33 PM
C'mon, you know I wasn't looking for approval or bragging (22 year SMSgt isn't really burning up the charts now is it?!) My point was a counter to what I took as a flawed logical conclusion on your part. You actually made my point in your responses. Different times, etc. The quality of someone isn't dependent on an arbitrary discriminator...something that every younger generation doesn't seem to understand. "New is always better and the old ways suck"...

I think we all realize that the CCAF does not instantly make someone a wonderful leader...nor does it mean that someone can not be a wonderful leader without it.


When I made it (2006), CCAF/Crs 14 (or whatever it was when I did it, can't remember) was a very "important" discriminator for SRE on the EPR. Not mandatory yet but very close to being so. Depended on your supervision as to getting it or not. The good thing was that duty performance could (and did in my case) trump the fact that I did not have my CCAF yet. So what did the fact that I was over 20 and didn't have my CCAF yet say about me? N-O-T-H-I-N-G. It's sad to see the AF losing out on many qualified, great leaders just because of this silly, unnecessary, arbitrary, mandatory requirement.

I was still in when it all became mandatory, so I understand how things are now and you bet I would have done what was necessary to keep my options open if need be. Just trying to point out that the "degree" doesn't make the man. :)

And yes, we all know that back in the day, some people made SMSgt and CMSgt without it...and some people had it and still didn't make it.

This little fact does not mean that it is therefore worthless. No, the degree doesn't "make the man"...but it is an indicator of something. Both you and I are of the same generation...I am quite sure that over your career you were reminded time and again that getting a CCAF was important. You chose not to do it, for whatever reason...of course that doesn't mean you couldn't have been better at performing your job than I was.

OTOH, would getting a CCAF have made YOU any worse at your job, or might it have made you just a tad bit better? Maybe not. I think your refusal to get it until that point in your career is one tidbit of information for others looking at your record. Maybe it meant you valued doing your hobbies more than taking a couple classes....or maybe it meant you have 6 kids that take up that time...or that you just didn't care. I would think it at least shows that something was more important to you than making SMSgt and CMSgt, because you've been told throughout your whole career that, if not absolutely necessary, it was a fairly critical box to check.

I would assume that as a SMSgt at 22 years that you have supervised people...and that sometimes you suggested these people to do optional things that they didn't necessarily agree with or think was necessary...so, if you had two guys and Guy A does what you suggest and Guy B does not...does that indicate anything?

Certainly it doesn't mean that Guy A is superior in every way to person B...so, does person B being a better mechanic prove that what you suggested is worthless and you are therefore an arbitrary and capricious leader?

sandsjames
02-07-2012, 04:38 PM
I may be a little confused about the whole process here, since I'm only a TSgt, but isn't there already a process in place for this sort of thing? It's called the EPR. Not taking care of the above mentioned items would reflect in 1 or 2 boxes by being marked as "meets" since they are not mandatory. This, in turn, would result in promotion becoming that much more difficult. Doing the course 14 and CCAF would place you in one of the higher boxes. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone get kicked out for meeting the standard in one category, and exceeding in all other categories. And I don't think it should ever be that way.

SamAdams
02-07-2012, 04:52 PM
That's fine. How about this suggestion? Shut down CCAF altogether and eliminate TA! Seems like an obvious savings for something that shouldn't be "required," right?

Heavy sigh...

Since WWII (maybe earlier?), the military has offered education benefits as an incentive for service. Why are you trying to twist this into an all or nothing proposition? How about we shut down the Service Academies since there are other ways to get a degree for a commission?

The POINT is that higher education has become MANDATORY for promotion for a "class" of employees that don't require it to do their jobs at the highest level within their scope. The CCAF in any given AFSC is too general in nature to make you more competent or professional in your job. Taking the classes (vs. CLEP-ing them) does make you more educated in general, but to tie a promotion to it is beyond absurd.

Here's another way to look at it. Since everyone is a 5 nowadays, what else is there to use as a separator? How about the CCAF? Well, as soon as that becomes necessary just to stay in, what's next? Maybe PT scores of 80 or higher? Once everyone accomplishes that, what's next? See where I'm going? We are adding layer upon layer of extracurricular shit on top of what should be the most important thing...job performance. Should you not be promoted on that alone vs. all the ARBITRARY CRAP? Don't give me the "whole person" b.s. either because I've never seen that concept applied in any work related decision ever...EXCEPT when it comes to promotable positions. We'll gladly pass over the more competent for the more promotable every time. I know that's how it works, but it is just plain wrong.

I hope I've made my point this time.

Shrike
02-07-2012, 05:11 PM
That's fine. How about this suggestion? Shut down CCAF altogether and eliminate TA! Seems like an obvious savings for something that shouldn't be "required," right?

Works for me. The post 9/11 GI Bill is awesome. If people want to get ahead in the USAF because of their degrees, go be an officer.

SamAdams
02-07-2012, 05:15 PM
I think we all realize that the CCAF does not instantly make someone a wonderful leader...nor does it mean that someone can not be a wonderful leader without it.



And yes, we all know that back in the day, some people made SMSgt and CMSgt without it...and some people had it and still didn't make it.

This little fact does not mean that it is therefore worthless. No, the degree doesn't "make the man"...but it is an indicator of something. Both you and I are of the same generation...I am quite sure that over your career you were reminded time and again that getting a CCAF was important. You chose not to do it, for whatever reason...of course that doesn't mean you couldn't have been better at performing your job than I was.

OTOH, would getting a CCAF have made YOU any worse at your job, or might it have made you just a tad bit better? Maybe not. I think your refusal to get it until that point in your career is one tidbit of information for others looking at your record. Maybe it meant you valued doing your hobbies more than taking a couple classes....or maybe it meant you have 6 kids that take up that time...or that you just didn't care. I would think it at least shows that something was more important to you than making SMSgt and CMSgt, because you've been told throughout your whole career that, if not absolutely necessary, it was a fairly critical box to check.

I would assume that as a SMSgt at 22 years that you have supervised people...and that sometimes you suggested these people to do optional things that they didn't necessarily agree with or think was necessary...so, if you had two guys and Guy A does what you suggest and Guy B does not...does that indicate anything?

Certainly it doesn't mean that Guy A is superior in every way to person B...so, does person B being a better mechanic prove that what you suggested is worthless and you are therefore an arbitrary and capricious leader?

You are getting too deep here. I laid out to my folks what the rules of the game were and let them make their own choices and used my experiences as an example...good and bad. Never pushed the extra stuff and didn't ding them come EPR time either. When it came to this, I walked the walk. Guess that made me a bad supervisor but it is all subjective after all. My beef is with the top of the system, not the middle parts. I know it's a losing argument because "it is what it is", but I can still gripe about it!

Salty Old Dog
02-07-2012, 05:18 PM
I don't agree with forcing people out prior to their high-year tenure, but getting that CCAF and Course 14 knocked out should definitely be high on the list of priorities for any aspiring SNCO. It just makes you a better person and a better leader!

Dang, BW......I had to hold my hand up high while reading that, to keep my watch from being ruined by the sh*t!! :lol

CCAF, from what I've seen, is about useless, as far as degrees go (at least, outside the USAF). What's really ridiculous, is when I hear about a SNCO, with a bachelor's degree, being given crap because they didn't have their CCAF done. Um......hello? :suspicious

SamAdams
02-07-2012, 05:45 PM
Neither does a good score on my WAPS test say anything about my ability to be a good Chief. When you put it together with all of the other discriminators it does say something. I seriously question the judgement of someone that steadfastly refuses to do these two things because they do not value it. This military thing is not about what we personally value.

How many discriminators does it take to "say" something about someone?

People have different values...who'd have thought? So, if someone makes the choice to not become promotable (a personal, legal and moral choice by the way), their judgement in all other aspects is now questionable? I hope you really don't believe that but if you do you are one sorry Chief. "I seriously question the judgement of someone who doesn't value what I do". There, we're even.

ChiefB
02-07-2012, 10:20 PM
This is a helluva good thread with great and passionate argument pro and con.

Maybe if we all look at this with some historical perspective, maybe the AF position will make better sense.

Back in the day (yeah, the old retired guy is about to speak), before CCAF, many AF, Enlisted and Officer, complained that although there were degree awarding schools within the AF for Officers, there were none for the Enlisted rank and file.

AF responded by developing and ultimately getting accredited the CCAF. Yes, it was limited to Associate degree granting authority but it was then considered a great victory for all the Enlisted that wanted degree credit for all their in-service schooling that brick and mortar schools didn't recognize. The CCAF developed "job oriented" Associate degrees that did just that, with a few "core" courses that rounded out the requirements. Attendance in CCAF degree programs was voluntary.

Now the Enlisted force was voluntarily able to capitalize on their in-service schooling and with just a few "other" courses, get degrees that were officially accredited. The Enlisted forces, at the time were very pleased with the AF's efforts on their behalf. The AF did expect that many an Airman would further their education, once bit by the "learning bug" and go on, through liberal TA funding, to their Bachelors, etc..

AF felt that CCAF was a win-win situation and could reasonably expect a somewhat more educated and degreed Enlisted force in the future. No other Service had such a college or program.

Course 12 & 14 (SNCOA by correspondence) was developed at the request of Enlisteds not yet eligible to attend SNCOA, in-residence, so they would be more evenly competitive to grades E-8/E-9. Senior selectees/Chiefs were the only eligibles to attend, and all of them (Senior selectees) were not selected to attend because of class size, HYT, etc.. This was primarily an effort to somewhat level the field for E-9 promotions and to give MSgts the benefit of exposure to the teachings of the SNCOA curricula.

We see that ultimately we Enlisteds asked for these programs to further our education/get credit for our schooling and to make us more competitive for promotion. That's right, we asked for these programs and we got exactly what we wished for.

Now, AF has such faith in the past success of these programs that it wants to encourage some less-than-motivated individuals to complete these programs for their and the AF's continued advancement and improvement in Enlisted education and leadership knowledge/skills. Therefore they have tied completion of these programs (2008) to endorsement programs as a prerequisite. I know of no plan to tie CCAF, course 12 or 14 to retention, except the natural function of "multiple no SRE = little chance of promotion = no HYT extensions". MSgts that could have ten + years in grade at HYT have been given ample time to decide to be promotion competitive or remain productive and worthwhile at their present grade. No harm, no foul. The AF knows this and sees no reason to tie the programs to hard "up or out" stipulations.

To those that deride the CCAF and Courses 12 & 14 as useless, that is your opinion prerogative, however, failure to subsequently comply with the wishes of your employer does currently have it's career enhancing drawbacks. Even with a negative outlook being your opinion, this is no compelling reason to curtail your completive chances, that is if you desire to advance. If not, again... no harm, no foul.

An aside: Flaps, Capt Alfredo and a few other Officers have joined us on these threads and give us insight into their and other Officer opinions on general and specific Enlisted and Officer points of interest. I, for one, see their participation as a big plus and don't view them as adversaries but as comrades-in-arms who have been there and done that to include service as enlisted service members.

Some may come across as arrogant, holier than thou and other abrasive terms but most have good insight and compelling stories to tell. Who on here has not come across as arrogant, holier than thou and other abrasive ways in trying to get their point made?

As proud as I am of being a Chief, I am equally proud of their accomplishments and ability to rise to their level of aspiration. I see these guys as having not forgotten from whence they came and wanting to enjoy the back and forth that they previously experienced as enlisteds and now feel they can give us some unvarnished insight into the commissioned side and the thinking of the "O's" as it applies to our bit$hes and complaints. I admire their tenacity and willingness to take the bricks and brats that we all throw at them and keep coming back giving as good as they get.. I hope they stay with us and continue to join the fray.

SamAdams
02-07-2012, 11:27 PM
Good words Chief B. What I find maddening is that anyone on this forum with a contrarian view is instantly labeled a heretic by the established cliques. They only have open minds when Big Blue tells them it's Ok to have one.

Tak
02-07-2012, 11:54 PM
CCAF was nice, why didn't they go on to a 4 year program...
Als and NCOA was good, not sure what course 14 really achieved...
I think overall these days, pt score and course 14 and CCAF are the
Discriminators and none have to do with job performance.
Again, getting CCAF and doing course 14 does not guarantee more money.

SamAdams
02-08-2012, 12:03 AM
CCAF was nice, why didn't they go on to a 4 year program...
Als and NCOA was good, not sure what course 14 really achieved...
I think overall these days, pt score and course 14 and CCAF are the
Discriminators and none have to do with job performance.Again, getting CCAF and doing course 14 does not guarantee more money.

That to me is the crux of the big picture problem. It's more of a "if we don't use it, we'll lose it so let's mandate it", than what it was originally intended to be. Thus it has become arbitrary.

ChiefB
02-08-2012, 01:27 AM
CCAF was nice, why didn't they go on to a 4 year program...
Als and NCOA was good, not sure what course 14 really achieved...
I think overall these days, pt score and course 14 and CCAF are the
Discriminators and none have to do with job performance.
Again, getting CCAF and doing course 14 does not guarantee more money.

Right, there are no guarantees, that is true. It's also true that if you take a "don't want to attitude" to the promotion board they will answer likewise, you can bet on it.

You can't go wrong by being the go-to-guy in your AFSC, a complier with expected standards and as educated as you can reasonably be. If you are, I can guarantee you will make more money, in and out of the AF, and will retire more comfortably.

ChiefB
02-08-2012, 01:43 AM
Good words Chief B. What I find maddening is that anyone on this forum with a contrarian view is instantly labeled a heretic by the established cliques. They only have open minds when Big Blue tells them it's Ok to have one.

SamA... It has been my experience and observation that if any have a well thought out comment, minus the name calling, and besser-wisser attitude, contrarian or not... you will be heard/read, appreciated (even by cliques) and make a difference by adding to the worth of the thread commentary. On the other hand, if you are disrespectful of your readers, refuse to proof your work, and come from an indefensible position, or are without reference support, you will be handed your head in your hand and be devoured like a duck in a clique's... er wolf's den.

Tak
02-08-2012, 01:50 AM
Officers get education and get paid for it.
Enlisted get education and do not.
Simple as that.

Tak
02-08-2012, 01:51 AM
Right, there are no guarantees, that is true. It's also true that if you take a "don't want to attitude" to the promotion board they will answer likewise, you can bet on it.

You can't go wrong by being the go-to-guy in your AFSC, a complier with expected standards and as educated as you can reasonably be. If you are, I can guarantee you will make more money, in and out of the AF, and will retire more comfortably.

Why should we get "mandatory education" without compensation?

ChiefB
02-08-2012, 01:54 AM
CCAF was nice, why didn't they go on to a 4 year program...
Als and NCOA was good, not sure what course 14 really achieved...
I think overall these days, pt score and course 14 and CCAF are the
Discriminators and none have to do with job performance.
Again, getting CCAF and doing course 14 does not guarantee more money.

I agree... it has been my position that completion of the 9-level, ALS, NCO and SNCOA with some few specific courses required by Air University should qualify an NCO for a Bachelor's in Military Science accredited by the Air University War College at Maxwell. Don't know why it's not a fact, now. I suggested this thirty years ago.

sandsjames
02-08-2012, 02:06 AM
That to me is the crux of the big picture problem. It's more of a "if we don't use it, we'll lose it so let's mandate it", than what it was originally intended to be. Thus it has become arbitrary.

That's the truth, for sure. The CCAF is an opportunity, for those who want to use it to their advantage. The Top 3/4/5/6/whatever it is now are opportunities, for those who want to use it to their advantage, and put the effort in. The Air Force has a lot of different opportunities, which, if used by those who are dedicated to what they are doing with the program, will make the programs better and, in turn, serve their purpose.

The problem with mandating is that you get the people going through the motions just to tick a box. This causes most of the people involved to not put their hearts into the program, which takes away from those it's supposed to serve. Let those who are willing and dedicated to be involved and make things better. Let those who are just wasting time sit on the sidelines. There's something out there for everyone to do. Everyone shouldn't be required to be involved in everything.

ChiefB
02-08-2012, 02:26 AM
Why should we get "mandatory education" without compensation?

I know you are just jerkin' my chain, Tak but it's called self-improvement, advanced education, etc.. Pilots do it, Doctors do it, Mechanics do it, HS graduates do it, Soldiers and Airmen do it, all without immediate compensation but as self-improvements to qualify for or possibly be accepted for promotion/advancement, position/job assignment or postings.

AF does not make education "mandatory", but they do preserve the prerogative of their highest rater's endorsement.

There's a helluva lot more perks to advanced education attainment than pay. Try it... your family will especially appreciate it.

Advanced education is an honorable goal and if you achieve it, you can more easily expect your subordinates and your very proud children to do the same. Education is win-win and you need to be suspect of those that pooh-pooh your's or any other's endeavors to acquire same, compensated for or not.

I know you agree with me, Tak.... you just want to be contrarian. Not that there's anything wrong with that.:eyebrows

FLAPS
02-08-2012, 10:00 AM
Enlisted get education and do not.
Simple as that.

This makes me think of the married 1-striper right out of High School who gets a steady paycheck with guaranteed raises, a place to live in base housing (gated community), free gym membership, free healthcare, etc. Gotta love the military!

Perhaps he is getting overcompensated for his HS education?

Tak
02-08-2012, 12:36 PM
I know you are just jerkin' my chain, Tak but it's called self-improvement, advanced education, etc.. Pilots do it, Doctors do it, Mechanics do it, HS graduates do it, Soldiers and Airmen do it, all without immediate compensation but as self-improvements to qualify for or possibly be accepted for promotion/advancement, position/job assignment or postings.

AF does not make education "mandatory", but they do preserve the prerogative of their highest rater's endorsement.

There's a helluva lot more perks to advanced education attainment than pay. Try it... your family will especially appreciate it.

Advanced education is an honorable goal and if you achieve it, you can more easily expect your subordinates and your very proud children to do the same. Education is win-win and you need to be suspect of those that pooh-pooh your's or any other's endeavors to acquire same, compensated for or not.

I know you agree with me, Tak.... you just want to be contrarian. Not that there's anything wrong with that.:eyebrows

Officers come in with four year degrees, its required and they get paid a lot.
There is no enlisted requirement until you want to make above e-7. Why is
There the requirement, is it just to seperate the herd...as I stated when enlisted
Get the four year or masters they don't get on par with the officer pay.
One day they will raise it to a four year being needed, then it will be really be crazy.
The numbers of enlisted who get four year, master and PhDs is very small,
So why not compensate for it. Get your four year, get 100 more, etc. Why
Should officers get paid so much for their degree. I think they left enlisted
With a community college degree on purpose.

Shrike
02-08-2012, 12:53 PM
Good words Chief B. What I find maddening is that anyone on this forum with a contrarian view is instantly labeled a heretic by the established cliques. They only have open minds when Big Blue tells them it's Ok to have one.

There are very, VERY few truly ate-up folks here.

Shrike
02-08-2012, 12:57 PM
Officers get education and get paid for it.
Enlisted get education and do not.
Simple as that.

I'm as big a critic of the CCAF as anyone. However, I got mine because I didn't want to burn any bridges. I got it (actually, "them", as I received two degrees) right when I sewed on MSgt. I made SMSgt the first time. So, in a way, I got paid for it.

Again, I'm a big critic of CCAF being a pre-req for SRE. However, I know exactly what it was worth to me.

SotaPop
02-08-2012, 02:26 PM
A CCAF shows basic competence in several areas to include speech, math, and English. Competencies I desire a leader to have.

Despite the negativity of several board members, let me put the value of a CCAF in terms of numbers

These numbers were compiled in Oct 2011

2011 CAAF Graduates - 18,494
2011 CCAF Transcripts issued - 143,059
AU-ABC Students - 20,931
AU-ABC graduates - 735
AU-ABC graduates who are now officers - 13

Does a CCAF make a great leader? No, however it does show personal development which every leader should strive for.

FLAPS
02-08-2012, 03:08 PM
A CCAF shows basic competence in several areas to include speech, math, and English. Competencies I desire a leader to have.



Unfortunately, there are plenty of people with "degrees" who still can't communicate or write a sentence. If CCAF required completion of actual classes (vs CLEP or DANTES, etc), then I think it would have more credibility. Same can be said about other degree programs as well.

imported_DannyJ
02-08-2012, 03:18 PM
A CCAF shows basic competence in several areas to include speech, math, and English. Competencies I desire a leader to have.

Despite the negativity of several board members, let me put the value of a CCAF in terms of numbers

These numbers were compiled in Oct 2011

2011 CAAF Graduates - 18,494
2011 CCAF Transcripts issued - 143,059
AU-ABC Students - 20,931
AU-ABC graduates - 735
AU-ABC graduates who are now officers - 13

Does a CCAF make a great leader? No, however it does show personal development which every leader should strive for.

I would like to stress the word BASIC. If your leaders are on the CCAF level of any of the mention subjects, man, fail...Most of the requirements should be able to be met by most HS grads. CLEPS make it ridiculously easy to complete your CCAF. I know several folks that never set foot inside a classroom to complete theirs. I just fail to see the point. Its nice an all to get that nice piece of paper, but in reality, it doesn't really do much for you. (I finished mine as an A1C and it has done ZILCH for me so far...)

As a proud E and holder of 4 year degree, I can guarentee the vast majority of SNCOs at the SMSgt/Chief level are deserving (intellectually/practically) of a bachelors of military sciences, as Chief B suggests, however, I don't see this EVER happening and for the same reason I don't endorse others focusing an abundance of their time on education just to get bullets for a 1296 or EPR. The enlisted are supposed to be the technically focused part of the force. I realize most SNCOs are "managers", but are along the same lines as a factory foreman rather than the people on the board, much the same as the differences of E's and O's in the military. It's just apples and oranges. I'd think an aporange would be great, but its a bit against nature...

SgtS
02-08-2012, 03:24 PM
Unfortunately, there are plenty of people with "degrees" who still can't communicate or write a sentence. If CCAF required completion of actual classes (vs CLEP or DANTES, etc), then I think it would have more credibility. Same can be said about other degree programs as well.

This is true. There are two enlisted members in my flight that have a Bachelor's, me (a B.A. in English) and another guy (a B.A. in Communications).

The guy with a degree in Communications can't articulate shit. His e-mails are atrocious, his speaking skills are pretty poor, and his ability to craft a training plan and execute are abysmal. A degree doesn't make anyone "smarter" at all, nor is it a sign of intellect. It simply reflects that you have the ability to complete assignments and turn them in on time and (sometimes) work under pressure and deadlines.

As far as the CCAF goes, I advocate for my troops to get it. The Air Force wants them to have it, plus it won't hurt them to have it on the outside. It carries about as much weight as any other associates degree from Community College X, as long as they clarify and say that they have an Associate's Degree instead of being stupid and saying I have a CCAF. I've seen where it has helped people get better positions in a company before.

Again, Course 14 is something the the Air Force wants you to get. Why intentionally sabotage your potential to get promoted? Some people might not want the next stripe and that is totally cool, but you never know what tomorrow will bring and sometimes aspirations totally change. So why hurt yourself on purpose? Get it done and move on.

Shrike
02-08-2012, 04:00 PM
A CCAF shows basic competence in several areas to include speech, math, and English. Competencies I desire a leader to have.

Despite the negativity of several board members, let me put the value of a CCAF in terms of numbers

These numbers were compiled in Oct 2011

2011 CAAF Graduates - 18,494
2011 CCAF Transcripts issued - 143,059
AU-ABC Students - 20,931
AU-ABC graduates - 735
AU-ABC graduates who are now officers - 13

Does a CCAF make a great leader? No, however it does show personal development which every leader should strive for.

<sigh> The courses necessary for a CCAF are 100-level college courses, which are basically a review of high school. So if you desire your leaders to have high-school level competencies, then congratulations! Every enlisted member meets your standards!

DWWSWWD
02-08-2012, 04:02 PM
..... but you never know what tomorrow will bring and sometimes aspirations totally change. So why hurt yourself on purpose? Get it done and move on. I've run into two folks whose aspirations changed and who really needed to be SMSgts. I think I recounted one of the situations here before. The guys ran out of time. Couple years of no SRE and then HYT. Really a shame.

Shrike
02-08-2012, 04:09 PM
I've run into two folks whose aspirations changed and who really needed to be SMSgts. I think I recounted one of the situations here before. The guys ran out of time. Couple years of no SRE and then HYT. Really a shame.

Yep. Don't burn bridges if you don't need to. Course 12 bored me to friggin' tears, but I checked that block "just in case". Well, "just in case" happened and I'm glad I knocked it out when I did.

My philosophy is there's never a good time to do "optional" PME. So just get it out of the way and be done with it.

SotaPop
02-08-2012, 04:19 PM
<sigh> The courses necessary for a CCAF are 100-level college courses, which are basically a review of high school. So if you desire your leaders to have high-school level competencies, then congratulations! Every enlisted member meets your standards!

No, a 100-level college courses are college courses. And there are many people who do fail them or cannot pass the CLEP exams. Now if your high school taught you the same material covered in these courses, good for them and good for you. Unless everyone went to your high school there must be some other way to ensure our leadership meets these basic standards…. Oh, there is.

Shrike
02-08-2012, 05:14 PM
No, a 100-level college courses are college courses. And there are many people who do fail them or cannot pass the CLEP exams. Now if your high school taught you the same material covered in these courses, good for them and good for you. Unless everyone went to your high school there must be some other way to ensure our leadership meets these basic standards…. Oh, there is.

Yes, they are college courses that re-hash the $hit that people learned in high school so as to ease students' transition to college life. There's not a single thing in a 100-level college course required for a CCAF that wasn't on the curriculum in my public high school. If you want to overinflate the value of those courses to the enlisted corps, go right ahead.

imported_DannyJ
02-08-2012, 08:13 PM
Yes, they are college courses that re-hash the $hit that people learned in high school so as to ease students' transition to college life. There's not a single thing in a 100-level college course required for a CCAF that wasn't on the curriculum in my public high school. If you want to overinflate the value of those courses to the enlisted corps, go right ahead.

And Shrike graditated in the early 90s, I'm guessing. So if he can do it nearly 20 years later and you can't, I'd hazzard it means you went to school in West Virginia.

Shrike
02-08-2012, 08:30 PM
And Shrike graditated in the early 90s, I'm guessing. So if he can do it nearly 20 years later and you can't, I'd hazzard it means you went to school in West Virginia.

'88. Yes, I'm old. :)

Tak
02-08-2012, 08:42 PM
People who say its easy for everyone, just a few classes...
Not always true...I worked with people who came in after me
Whose school had moved from lowry to some naval base, had
Not received CCAF credit for tech school, so they didn't get the
17 credits I got. Not everyone goes to an AF tech school or any tech school.

DWWSWWD
02-08-2012, 08:44 PM
Yes, they are college courses that re-hash the $hit that people learned in high school so as to ease students' transition to college life. There's not a single thing in a 100-level college course required for a CCAF that wasn't on the curriculum in my public high school. If you want to overinflate the value of those courses to the enlisted corps, go right ahead.Deja vu all over again. Shrike went to a great high school or a shitty college. I did go to high school in West Virginia and though college wasn't a huge stretch for me, there was nothing about my high school that prepared me for it. There are few people that aren't better in some way for having taken a college course. And it's free. To tak's point- very true. My school was 7 months long and maxed out credits for the job. For some folks a CCAF is a lot more work.

Shrike
02-08-2012, 10:07 PM
Deja vu all over again. Shrike went to a great high school or a shitty college. I did go to high school in West Virginia and though college wasn't a huge stretch for me, there was nothing about my high school that prepared me for it. There are few people that aren't better in some way for having taken a college course. And it's free. To tak's point- very true. My school was 7 months long and maxed out credits for the job. For some folks a CCAF is a lot more work.

Okay then, let's take what you say as true and state that my public education just happened to be far better than most other people's. This would mean that what I've claimed in the past is completely wrong and 100-level college courses really can't be completed by most high school graduates. Then you know what we've done? We've advanced the CCAF requirement for SRE from "We want our SMSgts and CMSgts to demonstrate a level of general knowlege that the average high school senior has" to "We want our SMSgts and CMSgts to demonstrate a level of general knowlege that the average college freshman has". That's a very big step that we should all be very, VERY proud of. :sad

sandsjames
02-08-2012, 10:51 PM
Okay then, let's take what you say as true and state that my public education just happened to be far better than most other people's. This would mean that what I've claimed in the past is completely wrong and 100-level college courses really can't be completed by most high school graduates. Then you know what we've done? We've advanced the CCAF requirement for SRE from "We want our SMSgts and CMSgts to demonstrate a level of general knowlege that the average high school senior has" to "We want our SMSgts and CMSgts to demonstrate a level of general knowlege that the average college freshman has". That's a very big step that we should all be very, VERY proud of. :sad

The math and English 100 level courses are definitely high school classes. At least they were 15 years ago. If we aren't teaching basic arithmetic and grammar in high school anymore then we are in more trouble than we all realize. The know for a fact that the Math 100 covers stuff from 9th to 12th grade.

imported_DannyJ
02-09-2012, 07:06 AM
Deja vu all over again. Shrike went to a great high school or a shitty college. I did go to high school in West Virginia and though college wasn't a huge stretch for me, there was nothing about my high school that prepared me for it. There are few people that aren't better in some way for having taken a college course. And it's free. To tak's point- very true. My school was 7 months long and maxed out credits for the job. For some folks a CCAF is a lot more work.

LMAO! So if West Virginia prepares you, where did this guy go?:second

imported_DannyJ
02-09-2012, 07:12 AM
The math and English 100 level courses are definitely high school classes. At least they were 15 years ago. If we aren't teaching basic arithmetic and grammar in high school anymore then we are in more trouble than we all realize. The know for a fact that the Math 100 covers stuff from 9th to 12th grade.

Seriously, they don't. You'd might not be surprised to know that basic grammar wasn't taught in the late 90s when I went (and my freshman year WAS indeed a senior year HS rehash). I learned english grammar by taking other languages (which AF English does qualify as a foreign language to me)!!

Pullinteeth
02-09-2012, 08:30 AM
I happen to agree with MM on this one. Service past 20 shouldn't be a guarantee regardless of HYT. That is the MAX that someone in you grade should stay in not the standard. To those that don't want to do what it takes to stay in, there will always be someone else that will. If there isn't, they will relax the standard. If this comes to fruition, it will be another thinly veiled Force Shaping measure you can thow in with PT, CJR, HYT, etc.. It will be yet another way for the AF to say they are not involuntarily cutting anyone. involuntary? Nope, they just didn't meet the requirements to stay in... Unlike some of the others (CJR), both of these are within the individual's control so while you may not LIKE it, if you choose not to do it, doesn't that show that you don't REALLY want to stay in? in the interest of full disclosure, I have 2 CCAF degrees but was too damn lazy to do course 14 so I went to the Academy instead...

20+Years
02-09-2012, 09:24 AM
I can truly see and understand both sides of this issue. Personally, I have always believed in never burning any bridge if it could be helped. I truely do understand what Tak is saying about degrees and pay though. If I am sitting here with my MA degree, as a MSgt, I am usually taking orders from someone (Lt's, Capt's) who have less education than me, more pay, and honestly no more potential to lead than I do. As a matter a fact, I may have the exact same level education, and more time in the AF than most of the flight OIC's or even the Sq CC. Do they recognize this fact? Yeah - ummmm no.

The fact is society is changing as far as education goes, and Officers are no longer the most educated in the force. So why then, is the system not being looked at to adjust for this?

In the end though, I truly love being enlisted. I will take my higher education, my lower pay, and do the best I can to take care of all Airmen (even the Officers that won't trust me with over-simplified tasks).

FLAPS
02-09-2012, 10:06 AM
As a matter a fact, I may have the exact same level education, and more time in the AF than most of the flight OIC's or even the Sq CC. Do they recognize this fact? Yeah - ummmm no.



Yes, most of us do understand that fact, and I'm positive that many enlisted could also breeze right through our commissioning programs, which is required in addition to the degree. There were many times as an OIC, actually almost daily, that I wondered how our section chiefs managed to stay on top of managing a 50-pers APG section, dealing with every problem under the sun, PLUS all the BS that flowed down to them (through me).

Definitely too much BS for not enough pay....one of the very reasons I chose to leave the AF before making MSgt. Coming back in wasn't a decision I made until being out for two years. Now I deal with the same BS as my SNCO counterparts, but as a maxed-out O-4 over 22 years, working wife and no kids. Financially, switching over was the best decision of my life. Running a sq with a sharp Chief is kind of nice, too!

20+Years
02-09-2012, 11:16 AM
I appreciate that you feel that way, its nice to know that some do care. There are plenty of others out there however (on both sides of the ranks), who do not share the same maturity or wisdom.

I am personally living under a Capt at the moment that tries to do everything herself, as if no one else can do it correctly. As of late, as her staff, we have had our hands tied while I watch the office flounder two months behind because "she can do it all". Due to arrogant mismanagement, no empowerment skills, and only delegation of menial tasks (can you go scan this?), I can't even answer basic questions for people who come in the office seeking a mangement level answer, they all have to see the Capt (and of course the Sq throws awards at her hard-work). But hey, on the upside, I have plenty of time to post here!

Great way for a MSgt with an MA to be used, huh? On the I-aint-takin-this-crap-no-longer SNCO level, I am positioning myself for a job change. She can get a A1C to fill my job position as Flight Chief.

Shrike
02-09-2012, 12:07 PM
I can truly see and understand both sides of this issue. Personally, I have always believed in never burning any bridge if it could be helped. I truely do understand what Tak is saying about degrees and pay though. If I am sitting here with my MA degree, as a MSgt, I am usually taking orders from someone (Lt's, Capt's) who have less education than me, more pay, and honestly no more potential to lead than I do. As a matter a fact, I may have the exact same level education, and more time in the AF than most of the flight OIC's or even the Sq CC. Do they recognize this fact? Yeah - ummmm no.

The fact is society is changing as far as education goes, and Officers are no longer the most educated in the force. So why then, is the system not being looked at to adjust for this?

In the end though, I truly love being enlisted. I will take my higher education, my lower pay, and do the best I can to take care of all Airmen (even the Officers that won't trust me with over-simplified tasks).

I don't understand what you're trying to claim here, based on this, from the AFPC 2011 demographics (http://www.afpc.af.mil/library/airforcepersonneldemographics.asp):

Enlisted academic education

- 67.9% some college
- 20.5% associate
- 6.0% bachelor
- 1.0% masters
- 0.008% professional

TJMAC77SP
02-09-2012, 01:08 PM
I happen to agree with MM on this one. Service past 20 shouldn't be a guarantee regardless of HYT. That is the MAX that someone in you grade should stay in not the standard. To those that don't want to do what it takes to stay in, there will always be someone else that will. If there isn't, they will relax the standard. If this comes to fruition, it will be another thinly veiled Force Shaping measure you can thow in with PT, CJR, HYT, etc.. It will be yet another way for the AF to say they are not involuntarily cutting anyone. involuntary? Nope, they just didn't meet the requirements to stay in... Unlike some of the others (CJR), both of these are within the individual's control so while you may not LIKE it, if you choose not to do it, doesn't that show that you don't REALLY want to stay in? in the interest of full disclosure, I have 2 CCAF degrees but was too damn lazy to do course 14 so I went to the Academy instead...



I have read this thread and wondered why all the angst. The PME and CCAF are discriminators useful in paring down end strength. You make choices, you live with the results.

It reminds me of the thread discussing the emphasis on off-duty activities and the inclusion of that into EPRs. Putting aside the level of the emphasis compounded by the level of activity itself there were some that advocated that it shouldn’t be included in the EPR at all. That is silly. It is (like the topic of this thread) a discriminator. It allows decision makers to categorize those who get the higher overall marks (or go on to more than 20 years service). Not everyone can be promoted and not everyone can serve out the maximum years to HYT. This is the current situation in the AF.

I suppose I would say that some grace period should be allowed before slamming the door but that doesn’t mean the premise itself is flawed. Even when I was still on active duty we all knew what the optional requirements for promotion and retention were and again, decisions were made and consequences faced.

FLAPS
02-09-2012, 03:36 PM
I don't understand what you're trying to claim here, based on this, from the AFPC 2011 demographics (http://www.afpc.af.mil/library/airforcepersonneldemographics.asp):

Enlisted academic education

- 67.9% some college
- 20.5% associate
- 6.0% bachelor
- 1.0% masters
- 0.008% professional

Good catch, and something I pulled up a while ago for a different thread. Today's enlisted force is FAR more educated than when I was enlisted in the early 90s, but still no comparison (percentage wise) to the level of education required for officers....considering all officers have bachelors, plus the majority (I believe) of FGOs who have Masters. I'm not going to look it up again, but I think you made the case.

Measure Man
02-09-2012, 04:08 PM
I don't understand what you're trying to claim here, based on this, from the AFPC 2011 demographics (http://www.afpc.af.mil/library/airforcepersonneldemographics.asp):

Enlisted academic education

- 67.9% some college
- 20.5% associate
- 6.0% bachelor
- 1.0% masters
- 0.008% professional

It sure seems like there are a lot more people than that with bachelors degrees.

TJMAC77SP
02-09-2012, 04:26 PM
It sure seems like there are a lot more people than that with bachelors degrees.

Especially among the SNCO corps. I got schooled a couple of years ago when I asserted that a Chief without a BS/BA was unheard of and almost as rare among SMSgt's. Next thing I know everybody was posting examples of my error.

SgtS
02-09-2012, 04:32 PM
It sure seems like there are a lot more people than that with bachelors degrees.

Don't get hung up on the 6% figure ... look at the actual number. There are approximately 260,000 enlisted Airmen in the Air Force right now. 6% of that is about 16,000 people with a bachelors. That's really a decent size group of folks, so you are very likely to encounter a few of them everywhere you go.

Shrike
02-09-2012, 05:23 PM
Good catch, and something I pulled up a while ago for a different thread. Today's enlisted force is FAR more educated than when I was enlisted in the early 90s, but still no comparison (percentage wise) to the level of education required for officers....considering all officers have bachelors, plus the majority (I believe) of FGOs who have Masters. I'm not going to look it up again, but I think you made the case.

I've gotten quite adept at posting that, as seemingly at least once a month someone will make some outrageous claim about the education level of USAF's enlisted corps. "Over half of SNCOs have bachelors degrees!" "Most SNCOs have a masters degree!" etc., etc., etc...

sandsjames
02-09-2012, 05:25 PM
I have read this thread and wondered why all the angst. The PME and CCAF are discriminators useful in paring down end strength. You make choices, you live with the results.

It reminds me of the thread discussing the emphasis on off-duty activities and the inclusion of that into EPRs. Putting aside the level of the emphasis compounded by the level of activity itself there were some that advocated that it shouldn’t be included in the EPR at all. That is silly. It is (like the topic of this thread) a discriminator. It allows decision makers to categorize those who get the higher overall marks (or go on to more than 20 years service). Not everyone can be promoted and not everyone can serve out the maximum years to HYT. This is the current situation in the AF.

I suppose I would say that some grace period should be allowed before slamming the door but that doesn’t mean the premise itself is flawed. Even when I was still on active duty we all knew what the optional requirements for promotion and retention were and again, decisions were made and consequences faced.

The angst is that these items should be used for promotion purposes only. They should not be used to determine whether or not someone can stay in past 20. If you choose not to do the things to get promoted, then there is already a cut off date. That's the entire purpose of HYT. So that people cannot sit stagnant for 15 years. Otherwise, they need to scrap HYT and allow re-enlistment base on a checklist of accomplishments (CCAF, PME, etc). But you can't have an HYT then say you can't stay until that HYT. Well, I guess they can do whatever they want, but I don't see the purpose.

sandsjames
02-09-2012, 05:34 PM
Good catch, and something I pulled up a while ago for a different thread. Today's enlisted force is FAR more educated than when I was enlisted in the early 90s, but still no comparison (percentage wise) to the level of education required for officers....considering all officers have bachelors, plus the majority (I believe) of FGOs who have Masters. I'm not going to look it up again, but I think you made the case.

Yeah, but the majority of Enlisted have CLEP'd at least 4 classes, plus earned credits for getting yelled out for 6 weeks (or whatever it is now). It don't get much more edumucated than that.

Measure Man
02-09-2012, 05:44 PM
Don't get hung up on the 6% figure ... look at the actual number. There are approximately 260,000 enlisted Airmen in the Air Force right now. 6% of that is about 16,000 people with a bachelors. That's really a decent size group of folks, so you are very likely to encounter a few of them everywhere you go.

Well, since i haven't met all 260,000 enlisted Airmen...I can only go based off of those I come in contact with...and it seems like more than 6% have degrees.

My sample may be a little skewed toward more SNCOs and maybe some more educated folks, but still...

I'm sure the figures are accurate, though.

DWWSWWD
02-09-2012, 06:49 PM
Well, since i haven't met all 260,000 enlisted Airmen...I can only go based off of those I come in contact with...and it seems like more than 6% have degrees.

My sample may be a little skewed toward more SNCOs and maybe some more educated folks, but still...

I'm sure the figures are accurate, though. You sir, travel in distiguished circles.

Tak
02-09-2012, 06:54 PM
I know sometimes enlisted get bachelors degrees and don't bother to put it in their education records,
I have seen this firsthand. That would skew numbers down.

sandsjames
02-09-2012, 06:59 PM
I know sometimes enlisted get bachelors degrees and don't bother to put it in their education records,
I have seen this firsthand. That would skew numbers down.

This just shows the ignorance of Enlisted people. If you've got a degree, no matter what level, you need to let everyone know that you've achieved great things. Frame it, highlight it, put a copy on the wall in every hallway/office you have access to. I have mine on one of those electronic picture frames. Both of my high quality CCAF degrees are on a slideshow that keeps repeating over and over. Once a week I'll change the border, but other than that, it's pretty effective. You should hear my family, and how proud they are when they come visit. I'm the first college graduate in my family. I feel like shouting my accomplishments from a mountain top.

Shrike
02-09-2012, 07:53 PM
This just shows the ignorance of Enlisted people. If you've got a degree, no matter what level, you need to let everyone know that you've achieved great things. Frame it, highlight it, put a copy on the wall in every hallway/office you have access to. I have mine on one of those electronic picture frames. Both of my high quality CCAF degrees are on a slideshow that keeps repeating over and over. Once a week I'll change the border, but other than that, it's pretty effective. You should hear my family, and how proud they are when they come visit. I'm the first college graduate in my family. I feel like shouting my accomplishments from a mountain top.

Yeah, seriously. How else am I going to know whether people are smart or not unless they advertise it?

MACHINE666
02-09-2012, 08:54 PM
I kept a picture of Alfred E. Neuman above my desk at work, with the quotation "What, Me Worry?" beneath his likeness.

It was the only way I could remind myself that ultimately everything in the Air Force was out of my control, from the input given to the chain of command, to my idiot airmen all getting Article 15's for being dumb-asses, so the best course of action was just to sit back and watch....

Capt Alfredo
02-10-2012, 12:45 AM
I've gotten quite adept at posting that, as seemingly at least once a month someone will make some outrageous claim about the education level of USAF's enlisted corps. "Over half of SNCOs have bachelors degrees!" "Most SNCOs have a masters degree!" etc., etc., etc...

Heh, as soon as I read the original post, I knew you'd be chiming in with the facts in short order. I knew I had to go get a commission the day the Group Commander said to the group, "what is a captain but a staff sergeant with a college degree?" and I looked down at my staff stripes and wondered where the hell my captain's bars were. Applied to OTS soon after.

imported_SRZ
02-10-2012, 03:05 AM
I know sometimes enlisted get bachelors degrees and don't bother to put it in their education records,
I have seen this firsthand. That would skew numbers down.

I am one of those people. B.A. and M.B.A. No one knew until I was getting ready to retire. People were like "WTF"? I just told them I'm not the kind to toot my own horn. It was something personal for me to obtain and felt it wasn't a need for the AF to know. Paid for it all myself. And now as I retiree I'm using my Post 911 for the 1st time. :D

Those degrees sit in the attic along w/ my uniform and all the other AF artifacts. Only thing I have showing is my retirement flag.

BRUWIN
02-10-2012, 03:39 AM
I know sometimes enlisted get bachelors degrees and don't bother to put it in their education records,
I have seen this firsthand. That would skew numbers down.

The Air Force never credited me with my correspondance degree from the Belsaw Institute in small engine repair. That still burns my ass.

Measure Man
02-10-2012, 02:54 PM
The Air Force never credited me with my correspondance degree from the Belsaw Institute in small engine repair. That still burns my ass.

Same with me....when I graduated Refrigerator College.

Shrike
02-10-2012, 03:14 PM
The Air Force never credited me with my correspondance degree from the Belsaw Institute in small engine repair. That still burns my ass.

Did Sally Struthers personally sign your diploma?

sandsjames
02-10-2012, 04:13 PM
Did Sally Struthers personally sign your diploma?

Nice reference. She really progressed through her career. She was good in "All in the Family". She was great in the Get your Degree ads, and she was amazing in the Starvin' Marvin South Park episode. Can't wait to see what she does next. Is she still alive?

Tak
02-10-2012, 04:29 PM
Got a new ccc and he's turning down a msgt pcsing after 4 years
For a MSM, going afcm due to no CCAF or course 14...this guy is
The best workwise.

Shrike
02-10-2012, 04:53 PM
Got a new ccc and he's turning down a msgt pcsing after 4 years
For a MSM, going afcm due to no CCAF or course 14...this guy is
The best workwise.
How you do in your job does not matter, and hasn't for some time.

Measure Man
02-10-2012, 04:57 PM
How you do in your job does not matter, and hasn't for some time.

The complete failure of the EPR system is probably the single biggest problem in the enlisted force.

Shrike
02-10-2012, 05:02 PM
The complete failure of the EPR system is probably the single biggest problem in the enlisted force.

I could not agree more. I just amazes me that I've been in for over two decades and the problem has not only been around that entire time, but has gotten progressively worse and infected so many other programs. And all that time, no one in a position to do anything about it will even admit that there's a problem.

Gonzo
02-10-2012, 07:23 PM
Got a new ccc and he's turning down a msgt pcsing after 4 years
For a MSM, going afcm due to no CCAF or course 14...this guy is
The best workwise.

This happened to me leaving my last assignment except they wouldn't give me an AFCM either. Oh well, not that I needed the points for testing but it would have been nice to have been acknowledged for the outstanding "work and service" I provided for 4 years. Yet Joe bag'o'shit MSgt with the box ticked gets his shiny MSM on the way to his next base where he will continue to suck. I still don't get what course 14 has to do with a medal for work/service accomplishments over a period of time.

But of course my new base does allow PCS MSM's for those without course 14 as common sense has prevailed here.

Tak
02-11-2012, 02:54 AM
Here's what pisses me off...
You got a average Joe worker who has CCAF and course 14 - gets msm
You got superstar worker who doesnt have those - afcm instead of msm

If a msgt doesn't have CCAF or course 14, he losses sre and probably smsgt,
Why take away an earned Dec for pme.

Sad thing is in the process, eprs are worthless.
Way too much difference between groups, wings, bases, commands.
Way too much unwritten horseshit, the afi is old and very plain.

Barberakb
02-11-2012, 03:46 AM
How you do in your job does not matter, and hasn't for some time.

It does if you work for me.

L_X
02-11-2012, 04:03 AM
The disconnect between what people think is good and what the Air force thinks is good is not a new issue. The Air force tells you what they are looking for in AFI 36-2618. You can call BS, hate it, think it's stupid, and talk about how things should be but at the end of the day we all know that the Air force values CCAF and Course 14...even if we don't. Give'm what they want or take the consequences.

ScarlettGTO
02-11-2012, 04:36 AM
The disconnect between what people think is good and what the Air force thinks is good is not a new issue. The Air force tells you what they are looking for in AFI 36-2618. You can call BS, hate it, think it's stupid, and talk about how things should be but at the end of the day we all know that the Air force values CCAF and Course 14...even if we don't. Give'm what they want or take the consequences.

Part of the problem....

I'm not saying total mutiny but when is enough enough? If I place the AF important things over my my work important things...people can get real fucked up real fucking quick.

Please explain to me why it makes sense that my guys should be doing CBT's, SAPR/BIT training, Volunteer work for an EPR, and a plethora of other shit when they need to be training for explosive detection for stateside and deployed operations. Right now I have a dog team on a month long camping trip in the hillsides of Afghanistan with some serious ass kicking professionals. He is facing things most AF people don't face. I bet he is thankful he had his CBT's, Resiliency training, and SAPR training over explosive detection.

Tak
02-11-2012, 04:42 AM
The disconnect between what people think is good and what the Air force thinks is good is not a new issue. The Air force tells you what they are looking for in AFI 36-2618. You can call BS, hate it, think it's stupid, and talk about how things should be but at the end of the day we all know that the Air force values CCAF and Course 14...even if we don't. Give'm what they want or take the consequences.

Please post where its mandated for a msgt to have CCAF in order to get msm.
Please post where a msgt had to complete course under 72 months to get msm.

The AF hasn't made this an AF standard, rather selective enforcement dependent
On location and personality.

FLAPS
02-11-2012, 12:27 PM
Please post where its mandated for a msgt to have CCAF in order to get msm.
Please post where a msgt had to complete course under 72 months to get msm.

The AF hasn't made this an AF standard, rather selective enforcement dependent
On location and personality.

So, how do we change things so the decision is not based on location and personality? If it's not possible to change things, then the answer is pretty obvious for those who want to get MSMs and other recognition....knock out the Crs 14 and CCAF at first opportunity and be done with it. No more worries about being weeded out by someone who has an opinion that differs from ours.

SgtS
02-11-2012, 03:03 PM
As often as I disagree with some of the things FLAPS says, this is one time were I share a similar thought. For many, the CCAF isn't particularly hard to get, especially after ALS. A little studying, a couple of CLEPs and maybe a little class time and it's done. Completing it won't HURT you, but NOT getting it certainly will.

Course 14 is the same deal. You can knock out a block in a couple weeks by giving up less than an hour reviewing the material. NOT doing it is going to hurt you a lot more in the long run, so why intentionally sabatoge your promotion chances? Sure, some folks may not want to get promoted, but you never know what tomorrow will bring. You might change your mind later on, and by then it will be too late.

In my unit there were two MSgts that recieved 4 EPRs this past cycle because they didn't have the Course 14 completed. They were furious, but eople are starting to seriously hold it against their folks. Protect yourself and your career, if for no other reason than CYA.

Measure Man
02-11-2012, 04:43 PM
In my unit there were two MSgts that recieved 4 EPRs this past cycle because they didn't have the Course 14 completed. They were furious, but eople are starting to seriously hold it against their folks. Protect yourself and your career, if for no other reason than CYA.

What are they so mad about? A 5 EPR is useless and doesn't automatically make them a better leader.

Barberakb
02-11-2012, 05:26 PM
Please post where its mandated for a msgt to have CCAF in order to get msm.
Please post where a msgt had to complete course under 72 months to get msm.

The AF hasn't made this an AF standard, rather selective enforcement dependent
On location and personality.

Now your just being dumb.
Please post where its mandated for a SSgt to have all firewall 5 EPR's in order to get a PCS medal.
Please post where its mandated that TSgt's get Commendation Medals but SrA get achievement medals when they PCS.
Even if they did the exact same thing.

It has always been this way.

The AF hasn't made this an AF standard, rather selective enforcement dependent
On location and personality. Get over it and move on.

Tak
02-11-2012, 06:25 PM
Now your just being dumb.
Please post where its mandated for a SSgt to have all firewall 5 EPR's in order to get a PCS medal.
Please post where its mandated that TSgt's get Commendation Medals but SrA get achievement medals when they PCS.
Even if they did the exact same thing.

It has always been this way.

The AF hasn't made this an AF standard, rather selective enforcement dependent
On location and personality. Get over it and move on.

Look dillweed, what the Hell good is an afi standard if 300,000 people enforce it differently.

Tak
02-11-2012, 06:27 PM
So, how do we change things so the decision is not based on location and personality? If it's not possible to change things, then the answer is pretty obvious for those who want to get MSMs and other recognition....knock out the Crs 14 and CCAF at first opportunity and be done with it. No more worries about being weeded out by someone who has an opinion that differs from ours.

afi is broke, fix afi.
simple as that slappy.

SgtS
02-11-2012, 07:25 PM
What are they so mad about? A 5 EPR is useless and doesn't automatically make them a better leader.

Lol, tell THEM that. They seemed pretty put out about it.

Shrike
02-11-2012, 07:32 PM
Lol, tell THEM that. They seemed pretty put out about it.

I don't get it either. They're not getting SRE without the C-14, so their shot at making E-8 is extremely small. Same as with getting a 4.

Now, I would be a little irked if this had never been brought up in a feedback session. "You will NOT get a 5 EPR from me without completion of all PME commensurate with your grade", or something to that effect.

strataboomer
02-29-2012, 10:03 PM
It's not hard to complete these 2 items. Just sayin....

imported_CLSE
02-29-2012, 10:29 PM
I can understand using completion of CCAF and Course-14 as final discriminators between several top choices who are otherwise well-qualified.

If completion of these is being used as an up-front discriminator that is being used to toss people before the rest of their info is looked at, that's serious BS.

If the rational for using the CCAF as a discriminator is showing personal growth but a post-AF useful degree is ignored, that's just plain f**king somebody for the sake of f**king them.

Kegler
02-29-2012, 10:41 PM
If the rational for using the CCAF as a discriminator is showing personal growth but a post-AF useful degree is ignored, that's just plain f**king somebody for the sake of f**king them.

Really? You are IN the AF. The AF doesnt and shouldnt care about a POST-AF degree. While a post AF degree is good...the AF doesnt really care you have a degree in Business Admin since you are a maint troop. What you do AFTER the AF with your POST AF degree....doesnt matter. Not a really good arguement. Now, if your degree is sorta related to your current AF job...could be a different discussion...but I would still ask...you got your Bachelors....hmmmmm...too lazy to apply and get your CCAF. If you have the 138 or so hours for the bachelors...I know you have most if not all of the CCAF requirements done...just go sign your name.

giggawatt
03-01-2012, 11:48 AM
This is true. There are two enlisted members in my flight that have a Bachelor's, me (a B.A. in English) and another guy (a B.A. in Communications).

The guy with a degree in Communications can't articulate shit. His e-mails are atrocious, his speaking skills are pretty poor, and his ability to craft a training plan and execute are abysmal. A degree doesn't make anyone "smarter" at all, nor is it a sign of intellect. It simply reflects that you have the ability to complete assignments and turn them in on time and (sometimes) work under pressure and deadlines.

As far as the CCAF goes, I advocate for my troops to get it. The Air Force wants them to have it, plus it won't hurt them to have it on the outside. It carries about as much weight as any other associates degree from Community College X, as long as they clarify and say that they have an Associate's Degree instead of being stupid and saying I have a CCAF. I've seen where it has helped people get better positions in a company before.

Again, Course 14 is something the the Air Force wants you to get. Why intentionally sabotage your potential to get promoted? Some people might not want the next stripe and that is totally cool, but you never know what tomorrow will bring and sometimes aspirations totally change. So why hurt yourself on purpose? Get it done and move on.

I was catching up on this thread and came across your post. It made me think of this guy. He holds a Master's degree in Communication!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhV5RgcNJjE

Tak
03-01-2012, 01:05 PM
All SNCO's who fail to procure a Mess Dress Uniform by 20 years of service, will be forced to retire.

Shrike
03-01-2012, 02:50 PM
All SNCO's who fail to procure a Mess Dress Uniform by 20 years of service, will be forced to retire.

I've never had a mess dress and never will. The semi-formal uniform is the only uniform unique to the enlisted corps. I wish they hadn't done away with the black bow tie 18 years or so ago, as that made it look more "formal".

SgtS
03-01-2012, 03:42 PM
I was catching up on this thread and came across your post. It made me think of this guy. He holds a Master's degree in Communication!

:shocked WOW! That guy is ... special :twitch

Measure Man
03-01-2012, 03:49 PM
I've never had a mess dress and never will. The semi-formal uniform is the only uniform unique to the enlisted corps. I wish they hadn't done away with the black bow tie 18 years or so ago, as that made it look more "formal".

Yeah...and from a distance or in low light it's hard to tell if the guy is in semi-formal or just forgot his nametag.

BRUWIN
03-01-2012, 03:52 PM
I've never had a mess dress and never will. The semi-formal uniform is the only uniform unique to the enlisted corps. I wish they hadn't done away with the black bow tie 18 years or so ago, as that made it look more "formal".

You obviously don't have the fine

Shrike
03-01-2012, 04:16 PM
You obviously don't have the fine

Did you have a retiree moment there?

Shrike
03-01-2012, 04:17 PM
Yeah...and from a distance or in low light it's hard to tell if the guy is in semi-formal or just forgot his nametag.

That's one of the reasons it sucked when they did away with the black bow tie.

Tak
03-01-2012, 04:31 PM
I've never had a mess dress and never will. The semi-formal uniform is the only uniform unique to the enlisted corps. I wish they hadn't done away with the black bow tie 18 years or so ago, as that made it look more "formal".

seems your not setting the proper example as a SNCO...

Shrike
03-01-2012, 04:36 PM
seems your not setting the proper example as a SNCO...

Actually, I'm setting a better example for enlisted heritage by not caving in like my peers and wearing a uniform once deemed so special that only officers could be allowed to wear it. If they want to join the brownie-hound club, that's on them. Me? I'm enlisted and proud of it.

B1k3rBoi
03-01-2012, 04:44 PM
I'll take an experienced leader/manager over a no talent ass clown who can take a test, any day of the week! I know plenty of people with degrees that can't even get a job, that piece of paper doesn't mean shit nowadays.

Tak
03-01-2012, 05:29 PM
Actually, I'm setting a better example for enlisted heritage by not caving in like my peers and wearing a uniform once deemed so special that only officers could be allowed to wear it. If they want to join the brownie-hound club, that's on them. Me? I'm enlisted and proud of it.

so no mess dress as a SNCO, but you need to complete Course 14 (72 month requirement) and CCAF (SRE requirement)
or else ?!?

Shrike
03-01-2012, 06:50 PM
so no mess dress as a SNCO, but you need to complete Course 14 (72 month requirement) and CCAF (SRE requirement)
or else ?!?

One's just as arbitrary as the other.

Do YOU wear mess dress? If so, why are you turning your back on your enlisted heritage in order to be more like officers? Don't you like enlisted? Why the hatred for enlisted and the love for officers?

js7799
03-01-2012, 07:13 PM
One's just as arbitrary as the other.

Do YOU wear mess dress? If so, why are you turning your back on your enlisted heritage in order to be more like officers? Don't you like enlisted? Why the hatred for enlisted and the love for officers?

I'll be damned if I ever wear the stupid blue penguin suit, and not only because Dracula1 might hunt me down and molest me. All I see at functions where people are wearing mess dress are elitist officers and SNCOs pretending to care what the 'troops' are saying as they tap away on their blackberries, not really paying attention. I understand I am painting with a broad brush here, and I apologize for doing so. It's just not for me.

Tak
03-01-2012, 08:32 PM
One's just as arbitrary as the other.

Do YOU wear mess dress? If so, why are you turning your back on your enlisted heritage in order to be more like officers? Don't you like enlisted? Why the hatred for enlisted and the love for officers?

My commander highly suggested I get one and I suggested they kiss my butt.

"1. The mess dress is optional for enlisted personnel and mandatory for officers.
Only officers wear the formal dress. Only enlisted personnel wear the semi-formal dress."

BRUWIN
03-01-2012, 10:08 PM
It's obvious to me that SNCOs that refuse to buy a mess dress do so for the reason that it further highlights their big fat asses. I on the other hand bought one because it complimented my fine well toned glutes.

sandsjames
03-01-2012, 10:24 PM
I on the other hand bought one because it complimented my fine well toned glutes.


As pointed out by the three blind chicks you ran past the other night, in the dark.

imported_oih82w8
03-01-2012, 11:21 PM
I did not buy the Mess Dress because my mini-medal rack would have cost more than the outfit did! :nono That and I did not support enough functions to warrant the extra expense...and I loved informing everyone that it was (as mentioned previously) an optional item for Enlisted, therefore I chose not to. :whistle

Shrike
03-01-2012, 11:39 PM
It's obvious to me that SNCOs that refuse to buy a mess dress do so for the reason that it further highlights their big fat asses. I on the other hand bought one because it complimented my fine well toned glutes.

I've got a sweet, well-toned ass that those women you ran past would be proud to wear as a hat while they ignored any retirees in the vicinity.

AFCommunicator
03-02-2012, 01:35 AM
It's obvious to me that SNCOs that refuse to buy a mess dress do so for the reason that it further highlights their big fat asses. I on the other hand bought one because it complimented my fine well toned glutes.

I feel ya Bru. When I retired, I gave mine to the shop. Nobody could fit into it because as a SMSgt, I still had the body of a 25 yr old. So, they sold it on the local yard sale site, bought beer and hand a party. Good times.

- AFC

BRUWIN
03-02-2012, 03:34 AM
I've got a sweet, well-toned ass that those women you ran past would be proud to wear as a hat while they ignored any retirees in the vicinity.

I ain't buying it. If you were in mess dress at an ALS graduation I could probably rest my drink on that big ass coffee table you're carrying around back there...could probably rest my ash tray and stoggie on it as well. You sport the semi-formal so it drapes over that junk in the trunk.

BRUWIN
03-02-2012, 03:40 AM
I feel ya Bru. When I retired, I gave mine to the shop. Nobody could fit into it because as a SMSgt, I still had the body of a 25 yr old. So, they sold it on the local yard sale site, bought beer and hand a party. Good times.

- AFC

A few of us are blessed. There are also a few guys with those flat plywood asses that should not be wearing mess dress either. I'm telling you, the mess dress is only really designed for us well toned physical specimens.

Shrike
03-02-2012, 11:55 AM
I ain't buying it. If you were in mess dress at an ALS graduation I could probably rest my drink on that big ass coffee table you're carrying around back there...could probably rest my ash tray and stoggie on it as well. You sport the semi-formal so it drapes over that junk in the trunk.

You can't buy it, as it's not for sale.

iReddit
03-02-2012, 02:47 PM
'88. Yes, I'm old. :)
Man, you can share a beer with folks that weren't even conceived when you graduated.

loadsmith
06-09-2012, 02:45 PM
Figured this would be a good spot to ask this question:
I have burned the Course 14 Courseware to a disk and I am tying to use it at home on my MacBook. I found on Google that one person said they had no issues but they did not elaborate as to what, if any additional software they may have had installed. I know most USAF type training programs aren't set up to be compatible with Mac so I am wondering if anyone has been successful with the Course 14 on a Mac product.

Thanks in advance

tiredretiredE7
06-09-2012, 05:26 PM
I haven't heard about this, but I think it's a GREAT idea. CCAF can be knocked out following completion of your CDC EOC test (as a A1C), and Crs 14 can be taken care of as a TSgt. It's only five tests that can reasonably be done in less than five months....if that.

If you are going to kick people out of the AF to get the numbers down, might as well go after those who clearly don't care about professional development.

To all Os who think you have a clue,
I originally addressed this to FLAPS but it deserves its own thread.
I have been holding off responding to your posts about enlisted but your complete lack of knowledge of the issue concerning CCAF gives the opportunity to enlighten you.
First the Course 14 must be completed I absolutely agree with that requirement, there is no excuse. The CCAF program is completely jacked. My first point is there are MSgts who have finished their Course 14 and have an Associate’s degree and Bachelor degree from an accredited college but no CCAF. How can this happen? The Ramstien education center was openly telling anyone who asked them how this happens is for 1 of 2 reasons. Call and ask them if you don’t believe me. The first reason is the college's curriculum does not meet CCAF standards. So the CCAF is trying to direct accredited colleges on how to write their curriculum. Of course colleges are pushing back and that’s why the CCAF is worthless outside of the AF. The second reason is the college professor did not have a Master's degree or higher. I know of CCAF instructors who are currently teaching classes with only a Bachelor degree. So as an officer FLAPS, I would expect a lot more from you when you said you agree with the policy. We have SNCOs with Bachelor degree who is getting screwed for promotion because of a CCAF issue and that’s OK with you?
Additionally SF, maintainers and other large careerfields have two tracks once you reach SSgt. You are either behind a desk (leading no one) or leading troops on the flight line or around the installation for 12 hour shifts. As a SF supervisor, you typically get 8 to 10 troops. I don’t know how many other troops are assigned to supervisor in other careerfields. Most training records have gone from hard copy to electronic. So when does the actual documentation of the training happen? After the shift is over. There still EPRs, feedbacks and Decs to complete as well. Meanwhile, you have the person who has the desk job that has plenty of time to go to school to get their CCAF since they don't have any subordinates and only work 07:30 until 16:30. Most current MSgts could not have completed their CCAF requirements online as A1Cs or SrA because the internet was a pipedream back then. I still can’t believe you posted that statement, it shows how out of touch you are. The swapping out of a desk job to the other side rarely happens especially if the desk job requires special schooling to get certified and these people follow these tracks until they reach MSgt. So who is going to get promoted to SMSgt? Obviously the person who had the desk job. I also left out deployments since the people who work desk jobs rarely get picked for those. So now we have a SMSgt who has not lead large groups of people but has both the requirements completed. How well do you think they actually perform in their duties? On the face of it, they are awesome because they have been groomed to give the PC answer the commander wants to hear and usually throw one of their MSgts under the bus which is easy since the MSgt has not completed the requirements for Senior rater endorsement and is a substandard SNCO and this is why things are messed up and the MSgt is the cause of the problem. Read this link for a prime example of how a chain of command in an SF squadron unfairly blamed a SNCO when it was the CC and his staff’s failure: http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2010/11/airforce-master-sgt-acquitted-in-suicide-dereliction-case-113010/
There is also the matter of the crusty SMSgts and Chiefs who somehow got by the VSSI/SSB push in the early 90’s who are waiting for HYT. You find them happily reviewing and routing EPRs and Decs instead of performing their assigned duties. They should all be out within 3 years and I would hope the SNCO corps would improve but their influence and leadership by example have already infected the newly promoted SMSgts and Chiefs. Are there some great examples of Chiefs? Of course and ChiefB is the example that most on these forums can relate too. However, Command Chiefs are pushing no Senior Rater endorsement for MSgts who do not have the CCAF even though the MSgt has their Bachelor. So as an Officer, when you said you agree with this policy, that is what you agreed was correct; to punish an individual who has clearly exceeded the standard. This is why Officers in the Air Force are laughed at by other branches and you are a prime example. It is further a disgrace that some of you were prior enlisted and still by the Air Force PC song. As an Officer you could fix the problem instead of embracing the problem.

FLAPS
06-09-2012, 07:50 PM
As an Officer you could fix the problem instead of embracing the problem.

Well, without addressing each point of your LONG diatribe, I actually do agree with most of what you have said. Can I fix any of the issues? Absolutely not. I work on a staff where we are all (enlisted and officers) just "action officers," standing by to answer the next email or tasker thrown our way. In fact, if I were king for a day all Os/Es on staff would remove our rank and simply wear AO buttons.

Tak
06-09-2012, 09:19 PM
To all Os who think you have a clue,
I originally addressed this to FLAPS but it deserves its own thread.
I have been holding off responding to your posts about enlisted but your complete lack of knowledge of the issue concerning CCAF gives the opportunity to enlighten you.
First the Course 14 must be completed I absolutely agree with that requirement, there is no excuse. The CCAF program is completely jacked. My first point is there are MSgts who have finished their Course 14 and have an Associate’s degree and Bachelor degree from an accredited college but no CCAF. How can this happen? The Ramstien education center was openly telling anyone who asked them how this happens is for 1 of 2 reasons. Call and ask them if you don’t believe me. The first reason is the college's curriculum does not meet CCAF standards. So the CCAF is trying to direct accredited colleges on how to write their curriculum. Of course colleges are pushing back and that’s why the CCAF is worthless outside of the AF. The second reason is the college professor did not have a Master's degree or higher. I know of CCAF instructors who are currently teaching classes with only a Bachelor degree. So as an officer FLAPS, I would expect a lot more from you when you said you agree with the policy. We have SNCOs with Bachelor degree who is getting screwed for promotion because of a CCAF issue and that’s OK with you?
Additionally SF, maintainers and other large careerfields have two tracks once you reach SSgt. You are either behind a desk (leading no one) or leading troops on the flight line or around the installation for 12 hour shifts. As a SF supervisor, you typically get 8 to 10 troops. I don’t know how many other troops are assigned to supervisor in other careerfields. Most training records have gone from hard copy to electronic. So when does the actual documentation of the training happen? After the shift is over. There still EPRs, feedbacks and Decs to complete as well. Meanwhile, you have the person who has the desk job that has plenty of time to go to school to get their CCAF since they don't have any subordinates and only work 07:30 until 16:30. Most current MSgts could not have completed their CCAF requirements online as A1Cs or SrA because the internet was a pipedream back then. I still can’t believe you posted that statement, it shows how out of touch you are. The swapping out of a desk job to the other side rarely happens especially if the desk job requires special schooling to get certified and these people follow these tracks until they reach MSgt. So who is going to get promoted to SMSgt? Obviously the person who had the desk job. I also left out deployments since the people who work desk jobs rarely get picked for those. So now we have a SMSgt who has not lead large groups of people but has both the requirements completed. How well do you think they actually perform in their duties? On the face of it, they are awesome because they have been groomed to give the PC answer the commander wants to hear and usually throw one of their MSgts under the bus which is easy since the MSgt has not completed the requirements for Senior rater endorsement and is a substandard SNCO and this is why things are messed up and the MSgt is the cause of the problem. Read this link for a prime example of how a chain of command in an SF squadron unfairly blamed a SNCO when it was the CC and his staff’s failure: http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2010/11/airforce-master-sgt-acquitted-in-suicide-dereliction-case-113010/
There is also the matter of the crusty SMSgts and Chiefs who somehow got by the VSSI/SSB push in the early 90’s who are waiting for HYT. You find them happily reviewing and routing EPRs and Decs instead of performing their assigned duties. They should all be out within 3 years and I would hope the SNCO corps would improve but their influence and leadership by example have already infected the newly promoted SMSgts and Chiefs. Are there some great examples of Chiefs? Of course and ChiefB is the example that most on these forums can relate too. However, Command Chiefs are pushing no Senior Rater endorsement for MSgts who do not have the CCAF even though the MSgt has their Bachelor. So as an Officer, when you said you agree with this policy, that is what you agreed was correct; to punish an individual who has clearly exceeded the standard. This is why Officers in the Air Force are laughed at by other branches and you are a prime example. It is further a disgrace that some of you were prior enlisted and still by the Air Force PC song. As an Officer you could fix the problem instead of embracing the problem.

He's just a major, give him a break. Majors really don't affect much of anything.

BRUWIN
06-09-2012, 10:10 PM
USUALLY these type only fall into but a few categories

1. Too lazy to go down to Ed office and enroll....get CCAF because all requirements have been completed with Bachelors
2. Too lazy to go down to Ed office and enroll...complete speech class (if you are a MSgt and cant CLEP it...wow is all I will say) and rest of requirements have been completed with Bachelors
3. Disgruntled and just wants to buck the system, this individual probably hasnt completed course 14 either because he just wants to buck the system and will tell you he is "being held down by the man"

As MM said...thank you for your service. Have a good day!

I think all 3 catagories apply to tired retired E-7 in one way or another.

HydroMagic
06-10-2012, 02:12 AM
Figured this would be a good spot to ask this question:
I have burned the Course 14 Courseware to a disk and I am tying to use it at home on my MacBook. I found on Google that one person said they had no issues but they did not elaborate as to what, if any additional software they may have had installed. I know most USAF type training programs aren't set up to be compatible with Mac so I am wondering if anyone has been successful with the Course 14 on a Mac product.

Thanks in advance

I did it on my MacBook Air. I have a CAC reader and just logged in throught the portal like if I was at work. A short Google search will lead you to tutotials on how to get the Portal working on OS X. Not every single application will work, but the Course 14 worked like a champ.