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colethings
01-26-2012, 11:25 PM
This is an excerpt from Directive Type Memorandum (DTM) 11-062 (See below). The link is here http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/DTM-11-063.pdf.

A Commander has to make a decision within 72 hours to PCS a Sexual Assault "Victim." Who wants to bet sexual assaults rise along with PCS requests.

Men please be careful in having sex with drunk women who do not want to be at a base.




Military Service members who file an Unrestricted Report of sexual assault shall be informed at the time of making the report, or as soon as practicable, of the option to request a temporary or permanent transfer from their assigned command or base, or to a different location within their assigned command or base. The Service members shall initiate the transfer request and submit the request to their commanding officers (COs). The commanding officer shall document the date and time the request is received.

A presumption shall be established in favor of transferring a Service member (who initiated the transfer request) following a credible report of sexual assault. The CO, or the appropriate approving authority, shall make a credible report determination at the time the request is made after considering the advice of the supporting judge advocate, or other legal advisor concerned, and the available evidence.

The CO must approve or disapprove a Service member’s request for a permanent change of station (PCS), permanent change of assignment (PCA), or unit transfer within 72 hours from receipt of the Service member’s request. The decision to approve the request shall be immediately forwarded to the designated activity that processes PCS, PCA, or unit transfers.

If the Service member’s request is disapproved by the CO, the Service member shall be given the opportunity to request review by the first general officer or flag officer in the chain of command of the member, or an SES equivalent (if applicable), and the decision to approve or disapprove the request must be made within 72 hours of submission of the request for review. If a civilian SES equivalent reviewer approves the transfer, the Secretary concerned shall process and issue orders for the transfer.

VFFSSGT
01-26-2012, 11:27 PM
This will never be abused!

sandsjames
01-27-2012, 12:09 AM
Here's the scenario...chick hates her base...goes to a club...picks up a drunk guy...has a couple drinks...bangs him...makes a report...

So guys, before you dip it in a military chick, find out if she likes where she's stationed. If not, run.

ROAD
01-27-2012, 02:15 AM
screw that, I'm at minot, i'm going to just claim I got drunk...and a chick banged me against my will...what did she look like you ask..i have no idea..i was drunk..yes I'll take that PCS please

iReddit
01-27-2012, 10:34 AM
This will never be abused!


There's definitely the potential for abuse, but I don't think it'll be very prevalent. It's illegal to make false reports and false official statements. If that isn't enough to discourage trumped up allegations, there's a stigma involved. We all work within small communities - the whole six degrees of separation thing. Not only that, there's suddenly unexpected arrivals at your base without meeting the TOS requirement from their last assignment for a PCS, we'll all have a pretty good idea how he/she got there. These are all mitigating factors.

STL7997
01-27-2012, 02:00 PM
This will just further deplete the chicks at all northern tier bases.

iReddit
01-27-2012, 03:33 PM
This will just further deplete the chicks at all northern tier bases.


Thus creating the Northern Tier Base Queen

colethings
01-27-2012, 05:55 PM
There's definitely the potential for abuse, but I don't think it'll be very prevalent. It's illegal to make false reports and false official statements. If that isn't enough to discourage trumped up allegations, there's a stigma involved. We all work within small communities - the whole six degrees of separation thing. Not only that, there's suddenly unexpected arrivals at your base without meeting the TOS requirement from their last assignment for a PCS, we'll all have a pretty good idea how he/she got there. These are all mitigating factors.



One of the problems is if the facts of what happened can get sorted out in 72 hours. If the statement is false, it would be tough to be determined in 72 hours.

Olivia
06-07-2013, 04:15 PM
Keep in mind: "credible report of sexual assault". Becuase I don't think fakers would go through a multiple hour-long rape examination where the nurse or doctor takes various "samples", such as fingernail scrapings, hair standards, oral swabs, etc. It's used for evidence collection as well as to establish a difference between patient's DNA and any other that is found. They examine the patient's naked body using a "Woods Lamp," a flourescent lamp that allows the practitioner to see evidence that they cannot see with the naked eye.The final stage of the exam is a vaginal/penile exam in which the nurse or doctor checks for injury and also conducts evidence collection in this area. Also, this should to be done within 72 hours of the incident. It's painful, embarassing, and uncomfortable. If someone was to abuse the situation, I would assume that a credible report would consist of the above evidence, and that not just anyone would put themselves in that situation.

imported_KnuckleDragger
06-07-2013, 09:12 PM
Keep in mind: "credible report of sexual assault". Becuase I don't think fakers would go through a multiple hour-long rape examination where the nurse or doctor takes various "samples", such as fingernail scrapings, hair standards, oral swabs, etc. It's used for evidence collection as well as to establish a difference between patient's DNA and any other that is found. They examine the patient's naked body using a "Woods Lamp," a flourescent lamp that allows the practitioner to see evidence that they cannot see with the naked eye.The final stage of the exam is a vaginal/penile exam in which the nurse or doctor checks for injury and also conducts evidence collection in this area. Also, this should to be done within 72 hours of the incident. It's painful, embarassing, and uncomfortable. If someone was to abuse the situation, I would assume that a credible report would consist of the above evidence, and that not just anyone would put themselves in that situation.

What about the fakers that cry rape, without thinking the plan through?

RobotChicken
06-07-2013, 09:44 PM
In the 'old days' a women would just get pregnant and get transferred off the ship to shore,get abortion and be happy;now their taking someone down to do it!(maybe?possible?)

Measure Man
06-07-2013, 09:52 PM
Somewhere at the core of the services sexual assault "problems" is the large degree of distrust male servicemembers seem to have of female servicemembers...I don't know if it is justified or not, but it is definitely there.

I've seen it not just on this thread, but on almost every sexual assault related thread...men seem to think a lot of women are "crying rape" to gain some form of benefit for themselves, the hell with the man.

I'm also guilty of that myself on more than one occasion...but, I don't know if it's true or not...nevertheless, seeing this reaction on almost every sexual assault topic, leads me to believe that a lot of men, whether they be investigators, commanders or court martial panel members might have that same tendency...seems it is often our first tendency to doubt what happened, or wonder what her angle is, what is trying to get out of it, is this benefitting her, etc. That it's so easy for women to lie about this and ruin a man's life and career, and many of them do so without a second thought...as long as they get to PCS.

I don't know the truth of it..and seems it would take a pretty darn callous woman to do that...but, I'm pretty sure it's been done and proven before and there'll probably be a bunch of stories posted in here, starting....NOW

imported_DannyJ
06-07-2013, 10:45 PM
Somewhere at the core of the services sexual assault "problems" is the large degree of distrust male servicemembers seem to have of female servicemembers...I don't know if it is justified or not, but it is definitely there.

I've seen it not just on this thread, but on almost every sexual assault related thread...men seem to think a lot of women are "crying rape" to gain some form of benefit for themselves, the hell with the man.

I'm also guilty of that myself on more than one occasion...but, I don't know if it's true or not...nevertheless, seeing this reaction on almost every sexual assault topic, leads me to believe that a lot of men, whether they be investigators, commanders or court martial panel members might have that same tendency...seems it is often our first tendency to doubt what happened, or wonder what her angle is, what is trying to get out of it, is this benefitting her, etc. That it's so easy for women to lie about this and ruin a man's life and career, and many of them do so without a second thought...as long as they get to PCS.

I don't know the truth of it..and seems it would take a pretty darn callous woman to do that...but, I'm pretty sure it's been done and proven before and there'll probably be a bunch of stories posted in here, starting....NOW

Problem with it is we all know it happens. There is no REAL way to disprove a rape minus having an alibi of being elsewhere when the supposed incident happened. There's also the fact that they will NOT persecute exposed fakers. It would only attach stigma to folks that have legit situations and the DoD just can't have that with Congress crawling up their ass. It's been proven a couple of times that the accusing parties were in fact lying, but recieved no NJP or CM. It's pretty much a no lose situation for fakers.

Measure Man
06-07-2013, 10:51 PM
Problem with it is we all know it happens.

I suppose. We also all know that genuine sexual assault happens.


There is no REAL way to disprove a rape minus having an alibi of being elsewhere when the supposed incident happened.

Well, in theory, the accused doesn't have to disprove anything...burden of proof is on the prosecution....another reason why convictions are difficult. Although, overall, I still that is a good thing...must better than the reverse.


There's also the fact that they will NOT persecute exposed fakers. It would only attach stigma to folks that have legit situations and the DoD just can't have that with Congress crawling up their ass. It's been proven a couple of times that the accusing parties were in fact lying, but recieved no NJP or CM. It's pretty much a no lose situation for fakers.

...having someone found Not Guilty does not mean the accuser was lying...just that they failed to prove the accused guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Some people confuse that.

However, in the cases where the accuser has been Proven to have deliberately lied...then I would support prosecution and can think of at least a couple cases off the top of my head where that happened.

imnohero
06-07-2013, 10:54 PM
here's a suggestion: start acting like gentlemen, then men won't ever be in a position to be accused. If you don't know how to be a gentleman...use these two simple rules to avoid trouble.

1) No touching.
2) If you wouldn't say it to your sister or mother, don't say it.

The problem is not women, or false accusations, men are the problem. Period.

CYBERFX1024
06-07-2013, 10:58 PM
Somewhere at the core of the services sexual assault "problems" is the large degree of distrust male servicemembers seem to have of female servicemembers...I don't know if it is justified or not, but it is definitely there.
I've seen it not just on this thread, but on almost every sexual assault related thread...men seem to think a lot of women are "crying rape" to gain some form of benefit for themselves, the hell with the man.
I'm also guilty of that myself on more than one occasion...but, I don't know if it's true or not...nevertheless, seeing this reaction on almost every sexual assault topic, leads me to believe that a lot of men, whether they be investigators, commanders or court martial panel members might have that same tendency...seems it is often our first tendency to doubt what happened, or wonder what her angle is, what is trying to get out of it, is this benefitting her, etc. That it's so easy for women to lie about this and ruin a man's life and career, and many of them do so without a second thought...as long as they get to PCS.
I don't know the truth of it..and seems it would take a pretty darn callous woman to do that...but, I'm pretty sure it's been done and proven before and there'll probably be a bunch of stories posted in here, starting....NOW

I know and I am one of those people as well that claim some women may claim rape for some sort of gratification or benefit. So that they "can make a ex or platoon member pay". It is sad to event think that crap like that happens, but it does. When that false accusation comes out and is proven false. Then that CO needs to make a example out WHOEVER made a false accusation. Don't baby the individual, but hold them accountable for their actions.

If a man/woman gets sexually assaulted then yes provide them with all the rights and protections under the law. I will be damned if a Marine/Soldier/Sailor/Airman get away or is given a freehand of it. I can't stand people like that and they need to be made a example of and put away. You can't have that in a command because the morale will deteriorate.

imported_DannyJ
06-07-2013, 11:08 PM
I suppose. We also all know that genuine sexual assault happens.

Zero arguement here. I abhor the thought of it. Personally I think what ever you use to abuse should be cut off.


Well, in theory, the accused doesn't have to disprove anything...burden of proof is on the prosecution....another reason why convictions are difficult. Although, overall, I still that is a good thing...must better than the reverse.

Not in today's AF. I'm not sure the last time you went to a SARC brief or Sexual Assault Awareness Training, but the moral of both stories is, if you have a penis, you ARE a rapist. In the DoD/AF with sexual assault it is guilty until proven innocent, PERIOD.


...having someone found Not Guilty does not mean the accuser was lying...just that they failed to prove the accused guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Some people confuse that.

However, in the cases where the accuser has been Proven to have deliberately lied...then I would support prosecution and can think of at least a couple cases off the top of my head where that happened.

Problem is, once someone is accused, doesn't really matter if they are found guilty or not. Their reputation is permanantly stained. I've seen marriages torn up on crap like this. It has gotten so out of hand I can't give my female troop a ride home without another person present.

imported_DannyJ
06-07-2013, 11:20 PM
here's a suggestion: start acting like gentlemen, then men won't ever be in a position to be accused. If you don't know how to be a gentleman...use these two simple rules to avoid trouble.

1) No touching.
2) If you wouldn't say it to your sister or mother, don't say it.

The problem is not women, or false accusations, men are the problem. Period.

I hope you're kidding, if not, you're incredibly naive.

imnohero
06-07-2013, 11:53 PM
I hope you're kidding, if not, you're incredibly nieve [sic].

No, I'm not kidding. Naive is "lacking wisdom"...and while that may be, it doesn't change the fact that men commit the sexual assaults, and women are the victims. Unless you contend that all 26,000 reported assaults were false accusations. Men commit the crimes, therefore, men are the problem.

CYBERFX1024
06-08-2013, 12:02 AM
here's a suggestion: start acting like gentlemen, then men won't ever be in a position to be accused. If you don't know how to be a gentleman...use these two simple rules to avoid trouble.

1) No touching.
2) If you wouldn't say it to your sister or mother, don't say it.

The problem is not women, or false accusations, men are the problem. Period.

I have to echo what Danny has to say on this. You are naïve and also saying that men are at fault is absurd. So just because some men want to break the law and sexually assault women, that means that it is on all men? Basically what I am getting with your assumption is that all men are perverts and rapists, is that a fair assessment?

imported_DannyJ
06-08-2013, 12:04 AM
No, I'm not kidding. Naive is "lacking wisdom"...and while that may be, it doesn't change the fact that men commit the sexual assaults, and women are the victims. Unless you contend that all 26,000 reported assaults were false accusations. Men commit the crimes, therefore, men are the problem.

In no way am I contending that all were false accusations. I am saying, however, that women can sexually assault people just as much as men. Tell me you haven't read or heard of that ever happening. Women can be just as sexually agressive as men. LGBT sexual assualts happen too, more often than you'd ever believe. Think about that.

The bolded statement really gets me. It's ABUSERS that are the problem, doesn't matter what's between their legs. If your logics holds; Some muslims are terrorists, therefore, muslims are the problem (I do not believe this mind you, purely for illustrative purposes). See how muslims are a portion of people commiting terrorism just like men are a portion (however large) of the people commiting sexual assault?

imported_KnuckleDragger
06-08-2013, 12:07 AM
Humans commit 100% of sexual assaults. Humans are the problem. Get rid of Humans!

imported_DannyJ
06-08-2013, 12:19 AM
I have to echo what Danny has to say on this. You are naïve and also saying that men are at fault is absurd. So just because some men want to break the law and sexually assault women, that means that it is on all men? Basically what I am getting with your assumption is that all men are perverts and rapists, is that a fair assessment?

That's the impression I get from the SARC and SAA training.

Measure Man
06-08-2013, 12:23 AM
here's a suggestion: start acting like gentlemen, then men won't ever be in a position to be accused. If you don't know how to be a gentleman...use these two simple rules to avoid trouble.

1) No touching.
2) If you wouldn't say it to your sister or mother, don't say it.

The problem is not women, or false accusations, men are the problem. Period.

NO touching?...ever? That's the answer? NO more intimate contact for military members?

Gentlemen don't touch women??

imported_DannyJ
06-08-2013, 12:25 AM
NO touching?...ever? That's the answer? NO more intimate contact for military members?

Gentlemen don't touch women??

Self love MM. Self love is the only answer.

Measure Man
06-08-2013, 12:29 AM
I know and I am one of those people as well that claim some women may claim rape for some sort of gratification or benefit. So that they "can make a ex or platoon member pay". It is sad to event think that crap like that happens, but it does. When that false accusation comes out and is proven false. Then that CO needs to make a example out WHOEVER made a false accusation. Don't baby the individual, but hold them accountable for their actions.

If a man/woman gets sexually assaulted then yes provide them with all the rights and protections under the law. I will be damned if a Marine/Soldier/Sailor/Airman get away or is given a freehand of it. I can't stand people like that and they need to be made a example of and put away. You can't have that in a command because the morale will deteriorate.


Self love MM. Self love is the only answer.

Makes me glad I'm married :-)...and yes, often I'll say things to my wife that I wouldn't to my mother or sister :yourock:

Measure Man
06-08-2013, 12:37 AM
I know and I am one of those people as well that claim some women may claim rape for some sort of gratification or benefit. So that they "can make a ex or platoon member pay". It is sad to event think that crap like that happens, but it does. When that false accusation comes out and is proven false. Then that CO needs to make a example out WHOEVER made a false accusation. Don't baby the individual, but hold them accountable for their actions.

If a man/woman gets sexually assaulted then yes provide them with all the rights and protections under the law. I will be damned if a Marine/Soldier/Sailor/Airman get away or is given a freehand of it. I can't stand people like that and they need to be made a example of and put away. You can't have that in a command because the morale will deteriorate.


Zero arguement here. I abhor the thought of it. Personally I think what ever you use to abuse should be cut off.



Not in today's AF. I'm not sure the last time you went to a SARC brief or Sexual Assault Awareness Training, but the moral of both stories is, if you have a penis, you ARE a rapist. In the DoD/AF with sexual assault it is guilty until proven innocent, PERIOD.



Problem is, once someone is accused, doesn't really matter if they are found guilty or not. Their reputation is permanantly stained. I've seen marriages torn up on crap like this. It has gotten so out of hand I can't give my female troop a ride home without another person present.

I don't know how often it is PROVEN that woman is lying...my guess is that is not very high.

I think most of the cases, it comes down to who you believe...the man's supporters believe the woman is lying, the woman's supporters believe the man is lying...and if it goes to court, the higher burden is on the woman, so that is the tough part.

imnohero
06-08-2013, 12:40 AM
I have to echo what Danny has to say on this. You are naïve and also saying that men are at fault is absurd. So just because some men want to break the law and sexually assault women, that means that it is on all men? Basically what I am getting with your assumption is that all men are perverts and rapists, is that a fair assessment?

Turn about is fair play. This thread started out by implying that women (generally) will falsely accuse just to get PCS and a warning to men (generally) to be careful. It's not "fair" to blame all men, just as it's not "fair" to blame all women. And quite frankly, the response to sexual assaults that women will "take advantage" of the system, is part of the problem, as is turning a blind eye to men's sexually aggressive behavior that is seemingly acceptable. I repeat, men are the problem.

grimreaper
06-08-2013, 12:41 AM
Hey, great news!!!! We get to go to yet another mandatory sexual assualt briefing next Thurs. I would like to know how many manhours we've spent going to these ridiculous briefings just to hear the same thing we've heard 100X already and if the powers that be actually this this prevents anything.

All is it is a CYA for leadership so they can say "but everyone was briefed" when it happens again. Do they really think that someone who is in the process of engaging in sexual assualt stops because they all the sudden remember the briefing they attended?

How many times are we briefed about not drinking and driving, yet we still have those too.

grimreaper
06-08-2013, 12:43 AM
Turn about is fair play. This thread started out by implying that women (generally) will falsely accuse just to get PCS and a warning to men (generally) to be careful. It's not "fair" to blame all men, just as it's not "fair" to blame all women. And quite frankly, the response to sexual assaults that women will "take advantage" of the system, is part of the problem, as is turning a blind eye to men's sexually aggressive behavior that is seemingly acceptable. I repeat, men are the problem.

Oh, I see what you did there. So your response is to engage in the same behavior that pissed you off and caused you to post a retort. Nice.

RobotChicken
06-08-2013, 12:49 AM
You go "D J", tell it like it is!!! To much free milk out there to have to fight over the scraps!

RobotChicken
06-08-2013, 12:51 AM
#31 after #32....again FA.

imported_DannyJ
06-08-2013, 12:56 AM
Turn about is fair play. This thread started out by implying that women (generally) will falsely accuse just to get PCS and a warning to men (generally) to be careful. It's not "fair" to blame all men, just as it's not "fair" to blame all women. And quite frankly, the response to sexual assaults that women will "take advantage" of the system, is part of the problem, as is turning a blind eye to men's sexually aggressive behavior that is seemingly acceptable. I repeat, men are the problem.

So...men aren't supposed to be sexually aggressive? That kinda makes procreation difficult. Listen, when it comes down to it, it could be male or female on either or both sides. It's REALLY short sighted to continually blame either. Here's where it becomes a problem for me. I am a man, 'tis what God gave me to work with (so via proxy God is at fault in your arguement). I have never, nor will, sexually assault anyone. If it came down to the basics (beyond honor etc), I'm just too lazy. Don't get me wrong, I have an active libido, but it would take entirely too much effort (not to mention its bad, mmmkay?).

Passing judgement on ANY entire group is ridiculous and immature, which is what kills me about the statement, "I repeat, men are the problem." Have a nice day penis-hater.

Measure Man
06-08-2013, 01:06 AM
Do they really think that someone who is in the process of engaging in sexual assualt stops because they all the sudden remember the briefing they attended?



I don't know...if it's a stone-cold rapist, then no.

If it's a guy that's been drinking that has "misread signals"...a la one of those recent cases (I can't keep them all straight anymore)...then...:-/ hmmmmm

But, to believe that, you'd have to believe that at least some of the accused are NOT beedy eyed predators lying in wait...but just confused drunks. It has been in awhile since I've been in Sex assault training, but the last time I was...the "perpetrator" was portrayed as a sneaky, beedy-eyes, predator, intentionally plying a woman with drinks in order to sexually assault her.

Though...a part of me, thinks that a fair amount of these "perpetrators"...are normal guys out to have a good time...sure, buying a woman drinks in the hopes that she'll loosen up...and cross the line at some point...doesn't mean they aren't responsible for their actions, but, a lot of these cases I don't think is a guy PLANNING to assault someone.

imported_DannyJ
06-08-2013, 01:14 AM
I don't know...if it's a stone-cold rapist, then no.

If it's a guy that's been drinking that has "misread signals"...a la one of those recent cases (I can't keep them all straight anymore)...then...:-/ hmmmmm

But, to believe that, you'd have to believe that at least some of the accused are NOT beedy eyed predators lying in wait...but just confused drunks. It has been in awhile since I've been in Sex assault training, but the last time I was...the "perpetrator" was portrayed as a sneaky, beedy-eyes, predator, intentionally plying a woman with drinks in order to sexually assault her.

Though...a part of me, thinks that a fair amount of these "perpetrators"...are normal guys out to have a good time...sure, buying a woman drinks in the hopes that she'll loosen up...and cross the line at some point...doesn't mean they aren't responsible for their actions, but, a lot of these cases I don't think is a guy PLANNING to assault someone.

No arguement from me, but I think that personal responsibility by all parties has to be taken into consideration. In no way am I saying parties are guilty or deserved to be sexually assaulted because of ANY non-sexually abusive behavior, but all actions have risks. If you don't want to be hit on, it's best (read I am not saying you deserve to be) not to dress sexually provocative and then go to a singles club known for hooking up. It's also best not to take drinks from people you don't trust. How do I avoid being sexually assaulted? I rarely go out and if I do, I go with 2+ friends that I trust (and don't go to gay clubs). It just seems they glaze over this kind of preventative training and go straight for the man-hating during all the trainings. How you dress, how you act, and what you say can contribute to the situations that you find yourself in, man or woman. Does it justify anything? Nope, but it sure can make it more likely to happen.

imnohero
06-08-2013, 01:15 AM
So...men aren't supposed to be sexually aggressive? That kinda makes procreation difficult. Listen, when it comes down to it, it could be male or female on either or both sides. It's REALLY short sighted to continually blame either. Here's where it becomes a problem for me. I am a man, 'tis what God gave me to work with (so via proxy God is at fault in your arguement). I have never, nor will, sexually assault anyone. If it came down to the basics (beyond honor etc), I'm just too lazy. Don't get me wrong, I have an active libido, but it would take entirely too much effort (not to mention its bad, mmmkay?).

Passing judgement on ANY entire group is ridiculous and immature, which is what kills me about the statement, "I repeat, men are the problem." Have a nice day penis-hater.

I don't hate all men, I hate men that don't know how to behave like civilized moral human beings.

imnohero
06-08-2013, 01:17 AM
So...men aren't supposed to be sexually aggressive? That kinda makes procreation difficult. Listen, when it comes down to it, it could be male or female on either or both sides. It's REALLY short sighted to continually blame either. Here's where it becomes a problem for me. I am a man, 'tis what God gave me to work with (so via proxy God is at fault in your arguement). I have never, nor will, sexually assault anyone. If it came down to the basics (beyond honor etc), I'm just too lazy. Don't get me wrong, I have an active libido, but it would take entirely too much effort (not to mention its bad, mmmkay?).

Passing judgement on ANY entire group is ridiculous and immature, which is what kills me about the statement, "I repeat, men are the problem." Have a nice day penis-hater.

I don't hate all men, I hate men that don't know how to behave like civilized moral human beings.

Measure Man
06-08-2013, 01:19 AM
No arguement from me, but I think that personal responsibility by all parties has to be taken into consideration. In no way am I saying parties are guilty or deserved to be sexually assaulted because of ANY non-sexually abusive behavior, but all actions have risks. If you don't want to be hit on, it's best (read I am not saying you deserve to be) not to dress sexually provocative and then go to a singles club known for hooking up. It's also best not to take drinks from people you don't trust. How do I avoid being sexually assaulted? I rarely go out and if I do, I go with 2+ friends that I trust (and don't go to gay clubs). It just seems they glaze over this kind of preventative training and go straight for the man-hating during all the trainings. How you dress, how you act, and what you say can contribute to the situations that you find yourself in, man or woman. Does it justify anything? Nope, but it sure can make it more likely to happen.

Well, as I like to say: It is unwise to walk down the street at midnight in Camden NJ counting out 20 $100 bills...you will most likely get jumped.

But, the guy that jumps you is still a criminal.

imported_DannyJ
06-08-2013, 01:27 AM
Well I guess that begs the question, what percentage of men do you put in the category of not knowing how to behave?

Das raciss.

grimreaper
06-08-2013, 01:36 AM
I don't hate all men, I hate men that don't know how to behave like civilized moral human beings.

Well I guess that begs the question, what percentage of men do you put in the category of not knowing how to behave?

imported_DannyJ
06-08-2013, 01:37 AM
Well I guess that begs the question, what percentage of men do you put in the category of not knowing how to behave?

Das raciss.

CYBERFX1024
06-08-2013, 02:12 AM
Turn about is fair play. This thread started out by implying that women (generally) will falsely accuse just to get PCS and a warning to men (generally) to be careful. It's not "fair" to blame all men, just as it's not "fair" to blame all women. And quite frankly, the response to sexual assaults that women will "take advantage" of the system, is part of the problem, as is turning a blind eye to men's sexually aggressive behavior that is seemingly acceptable. I repeat, men are the problem.

I don't blame anyone at all for being sexually assaulted. That is just uncalled for. But I know for a fact that women have claimed rape before, it turns out to be false, and nothing happens to her at all. She just did it to get back at a NCO because she got a particular crap duty.
We are not saying that everyone who claims rape is doing it for a pcs. Do I think that it will happen? Yes, I do. Do I think that some women will take advantage of the system to move somewhere they want to be? Yes I do think that.

CYBERFX1024
06-08-2013, 02:19 AM
I don't hate all men, I hate men that don't know how to behave like civilized moral human beings.

I love women, I love women so much that I married one. But what I don't like is women trying to be all sexual in order to get more drinks out of me, but as soon as I want to take it back to my place she balks. That's one reason why I stopped doing that. I couldn't tell you how many times a girl took me to her place to "just talk and hang out, nothing sexual" then by the end of the night my underwear is at the end of the bed. Yes, we have been drinking. Yes, I have woken up and looked over and gone "wtf I need to get the hell out of here before the whale wakes up" thoughts. My guess is that women have done that too.

RobotChicken
06-08-2013, 03:00 AM
Reminds me of an E-6 stationed at NAS Oceana, hadn't seen him for a couple of months and said to me, "RC did you see who I left with that nite I was wasted with!" "No;why?" "Well neither did I but when I woke up a set of teeth were looking at me from the coffee table and I didn't wait around to find out whom they belonged too!" True 'sea story' from RC's book of woe!

grimreaper
06-08-2013, 04:25 AM
I love women, I love women so much that I married one. But what I don't like is women trying to be all sexual in order to get more drinks out of me, but as soon as I want to take it back to my place she balks. That's one reason why I stopped doing that. I couldn't tell you how many times a girl took me to her place to "just talk and hang out, nothing sexual" then by the end of the night my underwear is at the end of the bed. Yes, we have been drinking. Yes, I have woken up and looked over and gone "wtf I need to get the hell out of here before the whale wakes up" thoughts. My guess is that women have done that too.

I know a guy stationed at Kunsan right now who was accused, tried and convicted of rape and sent to prison. Fortunately for him, it was able to be proven later that the woman was lying and she ended up admitting that she was not raped. He got over a year's worth of back pay and promoted to TSgt as well. That just goes to show how a woman can thoroughly f-up a man's life if she really wants to.

Banned
06-08-2013, 05:11 AM
here's a suggestion: start acting like gentlemen, then men won't ever be in a position to be accused. If you don't know how to be a gentleman...use these two simple rules to avoid trouble.

1) No touching.
2) If you wouldn't say it to your sister or mother, don't say it.

The problem is not women, or false accusations, men are the problem. Period.

Naive or not, this is good advice. If you're not indulging in either of these... there's really no way to build a case against you.

Banned
06-10-2013, 06:32 AM
AND... another token from the rep system.

I would be curious to know what part of my post DannyJ disagrees with. So does DannyJ like to touch females at work, or say innappropriate things to them? Just wondering what the logic here is.

MACHINE666
06-10-2013, 08:07 AM
I know a guy stationed at Kunsan right now who was accused, tried and convicted of rape and sent to prison. Fortunately for him, it was able to be proven later that the woman was lying and she ended up admitting that she was not raped. He got over a year's worth of back pay and promoted to TSgt as well. That just goes to show how a woman can thoroughly f-up a man's life if she really wants to.

Sadly, this is all too common in remote assignments. Girls there get on this power trip, BECAUSE they know they're a hot commodity, and can act like their pu$$y is lined with gold. Unfortunately, too many dudes fall for it hook, line, and sinker each time....

Olivia
06-10-2013, 02:09 PM
That would be punishment for them then. Karma. Let's hope that doesn't happen. Even credible reports can be acquitted:

During the month of May, one court-martial took place at Offutt.
At a General Court-Martial of an airman first class lasting seven days, a panel of three officer and six enlisted members announced a verdict of “mixed findings” after hearing evidence and testimony on eight charges and specifications that largely focused on domestic violence.
The panel found the Airman guilty of aggravated assault and multiple counts of assault consummated by battery against his then-wife. The panel also found the Airman guilty of willfully causing damage to their Rising View home. The Airman was acquitted of charges of rape, a separate aggravated assault charge, communicating a threat and abusing the family dog.
At the trial, evidence was introduced that after moving into his then-girlfriend’s Rising View house, the Airman would become enraged during arguments and punch holes into the walls and doors, causing damage assessed at $863.38. Testimony revealed that the arguments ultimately escalated to physical abuse where the Airman shoved, squeezed and shook his wife - in more than one incident, the Airman strangled her neck to the point of impeding her air supply.
The panel sentenced the Airman to a Bad Conduct Discharge, 18 months of confinement and reduction to airman basic.

Knowing detailed facts about this trial, the rape charge was SHORTLY followed by one of the assaults. However, apparently the sex was consensual though the victim had just endured a multiple-hour long assault that resulted in bruising from neck to foot, a total of 60% body bruised (including internally) and strangulation. Go military jury *cheer* :disgust::rolleyes1:

Banned
06-10-2013, 03:04 PM
Evil women. Always scheming and shit. Up to no good.

Banned
06-10-2013, 03:18 PM
You live in such a simple world Joe. I didn't dislike because of either of the reasons you mention. I disliked because your outlook is just as naive. It doesn't matter right now if you've done anything wrong, whether it be saying something inappropriate or inappropriate physical contact, an accusation is a career-ender in most scenarios, guilty or not. I've never argued that sexual assault is a horrible thing, it is, I just argue the ridiculous heights that over-sensitivity on it has gotten to.

Hmmm. Maybe you think my outlook is "naive"... I think your outlook is childish and bitter. If you keep it in your pants at work and behave responsibly... you'll be fine.

This bitterness seems to go back a long way in the military - officers and NCOs consistently getting away with sexual assault... but now that the tables are turned and they are finally started to be held accountable for their misdeeds, now the institution as a whole is whiney and butthurt.

imported_DannyJ
06-10-2013, 03:19 PM
AND... another token from the rep system.

I would be curious to know what part of my post DannyJ disagrees with. So does DannyJ like to touch females at work, or say innappropriate things to them? Just wondering what the logic here is.

You live in such a simple world Joe. I didn't dislike because of either of the reasons you mention. I disliked because your outlook is just as naive. It doesn't matter right now if you've done anything wrong, whether it be saying something inappropriate or inappropriate physical contact, an accusation is a career-ender in most scenarios, guilty or not. I've never argued that sexual assault is a horrible thing, it is, I just argue the ridiculous heights that over-sensitivity on it has gotten to.

Banned
06-10-2013, 03:23 PM
Interesting that a CC only has 72 hrs to determine if a report is credible. Sucks to be a CC. If you determine it's credible, then the alleged perpetrator is guilty by virtue of public opinion. If you determine (in 72 hrs) it's not credible, then the public will demand you are fired and kicked out of the AF. Lovely.

Calm down Speed Racer. The 72 hours is simply the time limit to determine if there's enough of a case to justify moving the victim.

Let me remind you of the case of the woman who was murdered by her (suspected) rapist. Now perhaps if she had been moved, she might still be alive. Not that half the people in this thread care - we all know women service members are just scheming manipulators who seduce men and ruin their careers.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
06-10-2013, 03:25 PM
Interesting that a CC only has 72 hrs to determine if a report is credible. Sucks to be a CC. If you determine it's credible, then the alleged perpetrator is guilty by virtue of public opinion. If you determine (in 72 hrs) it's not credible, then the public will demand you are fired and kicked out of the AF. Lovely.

Banned
06-10-2013, 03:33 PM
Interesting that a CC only has 72 hrs to determine if a report is credible. Sucks to be a CC. If you determine it's credible, then the alleged perpetrator is guilty by virtue of public opinion. If you determine (in 72 hrs) it's not credible, then the public will demand you are fired and kicked out of the AF. Lovely.

Calm down Speed Racer. The 72 hours is simply the time limit to determine if there's enough of a case to justify moving the victim.

Let me remind you of the case of the woman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Maria_Lauterbach) who was murdered by her (suspected) rapist. Now perhaps if she had been moved, she might still be alive. Not that half the people in this thread care - we all know women service members are just scheming manipulators who seduce men and ruin their careers.

JD2780
06-10-2013, 03:54 PM
Oh good, I was wondering when joe was going to start using more hyperbole. M

Banned
06-10-2013, 04:00 PM
Oh good, I was wondering when joe was going to start using more hyperbole. M

So the intimidation and/or murder of a possible sexual assault victim is a joke?

20+Years
06-10-2013, 04:12 PM
I just hope I am never tried by a jury that Joe suts on. Everyone is guilty by association in his eyes... you know... we've all been getting away with it for years!

JD2780
06-10-2013, 04:13 PM
So the intimidation and/or murder of a possible sexual assault victim is a joke?

Nope but your exaggeration of the opinion of folks in here certain is. Keep working with that exaggerating JB.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
06-10-2013, 05:00 PM
Calm down Speed Racer. The 72 hours is simply the time limit to determine if there's enough of a case to justify moving the victim.

Let me remind you of the case of the woman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Maria_Lauterbach) who was murdered by her (suspected) rapist. Now perhaps if she had been moved, she might still be alive. Not that half the people in this thread care - we all know women service members are just scheming manipulators who seduce men and ruin their careers.

Making the decision within 72 hours to move someone will have a huge impact on how quickly public perceptions will be formed about both the alleged perpetrator and commander. Either way, nobody wins.

grimreaper
06-10-2013, 05:57 PM
Making the decision within 72 hours to move someone will have a huge impact on how quickly public perceptions will be formed about both the alleged perpetrator and commander. Either way, nobody wins.

Joe's philosophy...Men have been getting away with it for so long, if a few have to get fried in the court of public opinion as well as a real court (even if they are innocent) oh well. They shouldn't have been talking to that girl. SMH

garhkal
06-10-2013, 06:18 PM
There's definitely the potential for abuse, but I don't think it'll be very prevalent. It's illegal to make false reports and false official statements. If that isn't enough to discourage trumped up allegations.

Is it? I have yet to hear of anyone arrested/charged/convicted fro making false rape/sexual assault claims.,,


Well, in theory, the accused doesn't have to disprove anything...burden of proof is on the prosecution....another reason why convictions are difficult. Although, overall, I still that is a good thing...must better than the reverse.

Maybe for normal stuff, but i have seen people stigmatized by accusatons of sexual assault, even when proven false..


That's the impression I get from the SARC and SAA training.

Same here. Nearly every brief i attended seemed to focus on men always being the assaulter..


I don't know how often it is PROVEN that woman is lying...my guess is that is not very high.

Kind of hard to prove it if they won't prosecute it.


I know a guy stationed at Kunsan right now who was accused, tried and convicted of rape and sent to prison. Fortunately for him, it was able to be proven later that the woman was lying and she ended up admitting that she was not raped. He got over a year's worth of back pay and promoted to TSgt as well. That just goes to show how a woman can thoroughly f-up a man's life if she really wants to.

Anything happen to her?

grimreaper
06-10-2013, 06:44 PM
Anything happen to her?

Not that I was told. She was a civilian, so chances are, no.

Banned
06-10-2013, 07:19 PM
I just hope I am never tried by a jury that Joe suts on. Everyone is guilty by association in his eyes... you know... we've all been getting away with it for years!

A lot of people have been getting away with it for years. But nowhere in my post did I say its cool to punish an innocent person.

But your attitude is part of the problem - you've got a persecution complex. Any initiative or policy change - no matter how reasonable - you're going to perceive as a left-wing attack on men.


Nope but your exaggeration of the opinion of folks in here certain is. Keep working with that exaggerating JB.

I don't need to exaggurate - wild claims that women are going to get drunk, have sex, and then go through an invasive medical examination and military/legal proceedings just to get a free PCS order - you don't see any exagguration in that??


Making the decision within 72 hours to move someone will have a huge impact on how quickly public perceptions will be formed about both the alleged perpetrator and commander. Either way, nobody wins.

Why? It's just standard operating procedure already used by many organizations... even in cases completely unrelated to sex. When I was working as a GS employee, several male team members filed a complaint of inappropriate conduct (not sex related) against their male team leader. The team leader was temporarily transferred to a different work site until the matter was resolved.


Joe's philosophy...Men have been getting away with it for so long, if a few have to get fried in the court of public opinion as well as a real court (even if they are innocent) oh well. They shouldn't have been talking to that girl. SMH

Well, Mr. Moralist - I would think it wouldn't be that hard to talk to a female without innuendo or groping her boobs.

grimreaper
06-10-2013, 07:49 PM
Well, Mr. Moralist - I would think it wouldn't be that hard to talk to a female without innuendo or groping her boobs.

Considering we've already established that false accusations have been made it was hoped that you would get the point, but unfortunately, people like you, in their rush to judgement don't care about what happens to the accused person. Just an "oh, sorry. My bad." If it turns out you were wrong.

grimreaper
06-10-2013, 07:54 PM
Your sympathy is noted. As is your apparent lack of interest in the thousands of actual victims - both male and female - who are swept under the rug by the system.

Nice try. When have I ever dismissed any ACTUAL victim? Answer: never. You however, have proven yourself to be very quick to judge and assign blame. Innocent until proven guilty? Nope. "Men are to blame"

Banned
06-10-2013, 07:56 PM
Hmmm...thought the first time was just a typo, but then you did it twice. How's that edumacation coming along?

Internet explorer dont have spll check.

Banned
06-10-2013, 07:57 PM
Hmmm...thought the first time was just a typo, but then you did it twice. How's that edumacation coming along?

Internet explorer dont have spll check.

Banned
06-10-2013, 07:58 PM
Considering we've already established that false accusations have been made it was hoped that you would get the point, but unfortunately, people like you, in their rush to judgement don't care about what happens to the accused person. Just an "oh, sorry. My bad." If it turns out you were wrong.

Your sympathy is noted. As is your apparent lack of interest in the thousands of actual victims - both male and female - who are swept under the rug by the system.

sandsjames
06-10-2013, 08:04 PM
I don't need to exaggurate - wild claims that women are going to get drunk, have sex, and then go through an invasive medical examination and military/legal proceedings just to get a free PCS order - you don't see any exagguration in that??



Hmmm...thought the first time was just a typo, but then you did it twice. How's that edumacation coming along?

imported_DannyJ
06-10-2013, 11:09 PM
Your sympathy is noted. As is your apparent lack of interest in the thousands of actual victims - both male and female - who are swept under the rug by the system.

Must be "The Man" trying to keep them down again.

Banned
06-11-2013, 12:21 AM
Must be "The Man" trying to keep them down again.

Not "the man" - just bitter guys who automatically assume the rape victim is trying to hustle for a PCS move.

I can't even imagine what it would be like for a male to report a sexual assault... I'll bet in your mind it makes perfect sense to get sodomized for a new duty station.

Banned
06-11-2013, 01:12 AM
You know, you're pigeon holing a lot of guys, which is funny, cause that's what you're accusing others of doing.

I'm just curious why you're being so whiney and butthurt about this. My guess is you're one of those guys who just sat on his ass on active duty sucking up taxpayer money. Now a smart hard working girl has shown up and you feel threatened and inferior, so you'll do anything to rationalize this and belittle her.

Banned
06-11-2013, 01:13 AM
You know, you're pigeon holing a lot of guys, which is funny, cause that's what you're accusing others of doing.

I'm just curious why you're being so whiney and butthurt about this. My guess is you're one of those guys who just sat on his ass on active duty sucking up taxpayer money. Now a smart hard working girl has shown up and you feel threatened and inferior, so you'll do anything to rationalize this and belittle her.

imported_DannyJ
06-11-2013, 01:17 AM
I'm just curious why you're being so whiney and butthurt about this. My guess is you're one of those guys who just sat on his ass on active duty sucking up taxpayer money. Now a smart hard working girl has shown up and you feel threatened and inferior, so you'll do anything to rationalize this and belittle her.

What the hell are you talking about? Seriously guy, you are making judgements about people you know zilch about. I have zero need to prove anything to you, or anyone else. I work for a very smart and very hard working WOMAN that I am very proud to call my supervisor. You know what? Why don't you get out and see the world a bit more before you pass judgement? I can't wait for you to be put in a difficult situation like this, recall this verbal diarrhea, and wonder wtf you were talking about.

imported_DannyJ
06-11-2013, 01:20 AM
Not "the man" - just bitter guys who automatically assume the rape victim is trying to hustle for a PCS move.

I can't even imagine what it would be like for a male to report a sexual assault... I'll bet in your mind it makes perfect sense to get sodomized for a new duty station.

You know, you're pigeon holing a lot of guys, which is funny, cause that's what you're accusing others of doing.

imported_DannyJ
06-11-2013, 01:29 AM
I'm just curious why you're being so whiney and butthurt about this. My guess is you're one of those guys who just sat on his ass on active duty sucking up taxpayer money. Now a smart hard working girl has shown up and you feel threatened and inferior, so you'll do anything to rationalize this and belittle her.

What the hell are you talking about? Seriously guy, you are making judgements about people you know zilch about. I have zero need to prove anything to you, or anyone else. I work for a very smart and very hard working WOMAN that I am very proud to call my supervisor. You know what? Why don't you get out and see the world a bit more before you pass judgement? I can't wait for you to be put in a difficult situation like this, recall this verbal diarrhea, and wonder wtf you were talking about.

imported_DannyJ
06-11-2013, 01:30 AM
I'm just curious why you're being so whiney and butthurt about this. My guess is you're one of those guys who just sat on his ass on active duty sucking up taxpayer money. Now a smart hard working girl has shown up and you feel threatened and inferior, so you'll do anything to rationalize this and belittle her.

Obvious troll is obvious.

RobotChicken
06-11-2013, 02:04 AM
:wtf1: "Is this 'obsession' with sex and religion on these threads lately; '700 club' and favorite porn site down?"

Banned
06-11-2013, 02:14 AM
What the hell are you talking about? Seriously guy, you are making judgements about people you know zilch about.

Pot, meet kettle. How about you quit projecting wild and paranoid conspiracy theories on a very legitimate and sensible way to protect possible victims while an investigation is in progress?


I have zero need to prove anything to you, or anyone else.

Good. And rape victims have nothing to prove to you. Your only role is to obey orders, and leave the investigation to the investigators.


I work for a very smart and very hard working WOMAN that I am very proud to call my supervisor.

A lot of women have very backwards and conservative attitudes toward sexual assault victims too - they were being "sluts" and they were "asking for it", etc.


You know what? Why don't you get out and see the world a bit more before you pass judgement? I can't wait for you to be put in a difficult situation like this, recall this verbal diarrhea, and wonder wtf you were talking about.

If I end up in that situation, I'll be happy this policy is in place, because it removes any temptation on my part to go talk to her, and removes any odds of us having a chance meeting on base, and the situation getting more sour. Unlike you, I don't let my world revolve around fear and paranoia. If such an accusation did come my way, I would hope the investigation was fair and impartial - just as I would hope it was fair and impartial if I myself was assaulted.

Banned
06-11-2013, 02:57 AM
The paranioa and fear of women is nonetheless interesting to me.

CYBERFX1024
06-11-2013, 03:00 AM
Obvious troll is obvious.

We all could have told you that along time ago... Nothing new in our books. We think Joe just says things to get a rise out of people that is all

garhkal
06-11-2013, 04:05 AM
Not that I was told. She was a civilian, so chances are, no.

In that case he should have sued her ass for defamation of character, slander, liable and false accusations..


Why? It's just standard operating procedure already used by many organizations... even in cases completely unrelated to sex. When I was working as a GS employee, several male team members filed a complaint of inappropriate conduct (not sex related) against their male team leader. The team leader was temporarily transferred to a different work site until the matter was resolved.

Just cause it is SOP does not make it right.
IMO transferring someone for an accusation is practically painting a "they are guilty, we just have not proven it yet" target on them.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
06-11-2013, 03:41 PM
The paranioa and fear of women is nonetheless interesting to me.

Who are you referring to, the people on this thread you've never actually met?

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
06-11-2013, 05:49 PM
Joe can tell you what you had for lunch.

If you state on here that you prefer vanilla ice cream over chocolate, he'll immediately label you as a right-wing, white supremacist women hater.

grimreaper
06-11-2013, 05:57 PM
Who are you referring to, the people on this thread you've never actually met?

Joe can tell you what you had for lunch.

grimreaper
06-11-2013, 06:26 PM
If you state on here that you prefer vanilla ice cream over chocolate, he'll immediately label you as a right-wing, white supremacist women hater.

You forgot homophobe and religious nutjob.

Banned
06-13-2013, 02:17 AM
In that case he should have sued her ass for defamation of character, slander, liable and false accusations..

Just cause it is SOP does not make it right.
IMO transferring someone for an accusation is practically painting a "they are guilty, we just have not proven it yet" target on them.


Separating the two parties is just common sense. There actually was a similar rape investigation that happened in my unit on deployment... and it was proven to be false. Why? Because standards were followed and common sense applied, not paranoia.

RobotChicken
06-13-2013, 05:40 AM
"Politics,Religion and SEX; it F**King never ends......."

imported_DannyJ
06-13-2013, 07:24 PM
"Politics,Religion and SEX; F**King never ends......."

There I fixed it for ya!