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View Full Version : Recovering from an EPR with no SRE



riffmast
12-13-2011, 03:22 PM
Hello every one, new poster here. I was curious if we had any Chiefs who have sat on a promotion board or someone that has talked to one about how many EPRs the board likes to see on top of an EPR missing a Senior Rater because of lack of CCAF?

I have 3 SRE EPRs on top, with the last 2 Top 3% FW Strats and a First Sgt of the year. The last 2 cycles they have dinged me pretty hard and I know as a Shirt it is even tougher.

The last Board brief that was posted (2005) he specifically mentioned 3 solid EPRs on top. Has anyone else heard of this or experienced this themselves?

Thanks for any info.

imported_oih82w8
12-13-2011, 03:35 PM
I would not worry about it if you got out from being a shirt/skirt, at least that is what I heard previously. Getting promoted as a shirt/skirt is really, really hard, when you move back to your old career field (or another), it is looked favorably having shirt/skirt experience under your belt, but not while being one. Some people really like being a shirt/skirt, but do you want to be promoted? Then it's time to move on. Being stagnant as a shirt/skirt is not a good career progression sign. :nono

riffmast
12-13-2011, 03:45 PM
I tested well, this is my 5th time testing and 3rd time as a Shirt. My first eligible was SRE because it was right at the transition of the CCAF requirement. I then had 2 non SRE EPRs due to lack of CCAF (solid EPRs other than that). Now I have 3 on top with Senior rater (2 with great strats and 1 Shirt of the year) AFSA President, Div # 1 trustee, led a lot of everything, typical great Shirt stuff inside the Sq. I think I can make it with an 8.5 and two 8's (367.5) from the board. I am also in Korea (on my DVR) which should help too. My Board score went from a 300 the first time as a Shirt, to a 330 last year. I am hoping I can make that jump into the high 360 to mid 370 range.

If not, I do step back to Maintenance after this, which was a very tough decision. I love my job!

Measure Man
12-13-2011, 03:54 PM
I tested well, this is my 5th time testing and 3rd time as a Shirt. My first eligible was SRE because it was right at the transition of the CCAF requirement. I then had 2 non SRE EPRs due to lack of CCAF (solid EPRs other than that). Now I have 3 on top with Senior rater (2 with great strats and 1 Shirt of the year) AFSA President, Div # 1 trustee, led a lot of everything, typical great Shirt stuff inside the Sq. I think I can make it with an 8.5 and two 8's (367.5) from the board. I am also in Korea (on my DVR) which should help too. My Board score went from a 300 the first time as a Shirt, to a 330 last year. I am hoping I can make that jump into the high 360 to mid 370 range.

If not, I do step back to Maintenance after this, which was a very tough decision. I love my job!

Sounds like you got a decent shot.

Every board and board member has their own feelings about that kind of stuff...but 3 on top w/ good stuff would be sufficient, IMO.

Just keep plugging...it'll come.

XD40
12-13-2011, 04:54 PM
Honest opinion: You don't have much of a shot so long as you wear a diamond...go back to old field and I'd be surprised if you didn't get it first time (one missing SRE is bad but two is a killer).

With that said, what the hell do I know? Everytime I think I know something, some smart-ass proves me wrong. So here's to the smart ass' of the world! May they always prove me wrong!

Good luck!

PS...I thought you had to have your CCAF BEFORE you became a shirt? At least that's what I was told by a CCM (of course his lips were moving at the time)

imported_oih82w8
12-13-2011, 05:19 PM
I over-read the no CCAF part...that seems to be the your only road block. Is there any particular reason that you do not have it? How could you be a positive role model to those within your squadron without your career broadening CCAF? I have heard that quite a few people can CLEP/DANTES it out, especially if you are on a remote to the the ROK.

BRUWIN
12-13-2011, 05:35 PM
I over-read the no CCAF part...that seems to be the your only road block. Is there any particular reason that you do not have it? How could you be a positive role model to those within your squadron without your career broadening CCAF? I have heard that quite a few people can CLEP/DANTES it out, especially if you are on a remote to the the ROK.

I think people are misunderstanding. He got an EPR with no SRE because he had no CCAF. He has since gotten his CCAF and has had three addional EPRs with SREs since. You can't get a SRE without it. He's trying to get a gauge on when the EPR with no SRE will have little effect on his board score.

My spin on it is this. Keep in mind...I have never been on a promotion board so take it for what it is worth. There are no hard and fast rules with regards to SREs other than if you didn't get one on your last EPR you won't be promoted...and technically even that's not a rule. A lot depends on what the top 3 eprs say. But keep in mind...most SNCOs acquire their CCAF before they ever put on MSgt and most will have SREs when eligible. If you are close to them performance-wise but they had straight SREs while you missed one than I would give the advantage to the guy who's gotten all SRE when TIG eligible. BUT...what do those last three EPRS say? They might overrule that line of thinking. there are no hard fast rules here.

By all means you are not out of the promotion game. However, keep your promotion hopes realistic. Like was mentioned...if you were to go back to maintenance you would have a better opportunity so it's up to you to decide what's more important. Eventually you are going to have to go back anyways....so why not do it now and improve your promotion opportunity.

PriorShirt
12-13-2011, 05:36 PM
I suppose it is what is important to you. Do you want to get promoted or continue being a shirt? I feel your pain and I will say becoming a shirt and staying one for the second tour was the worst professional move I ever made. However, it was the best one I ever did on a personal level. I stayed a shirt without regard to the difficult promotion factors. Then the dang HYT got ahold of me and I had to retire.

I would have liked to make SMSgt, in fact the year I became one I would have made it. If I had gone to school a month later I would have competed in my old career field instead of the new one. I sure you may remember the discussions and confusion on the date departed for training.

I had a CCAFx3 and a BS. I had a first sergeant of the year as well as a couple #1 and #2 strats. Unfortunately, my board scores never seemed to reflect it. This may sound odd, but the ones I did see make it were all current or previous first sergeant council presidents. Having a position on the council certainly seems to weigh heavily with the board.

So the answer to your question.... If you really don't care about making SMSgt then stay a shirt. If you are dead set on making it, return to your career field. I know this is very generalized and of course you could make it next go around but I wouldn't count on it.

Comm Chief
12-13-2011, 06:48 PM
Lots of folks recover from not having SRI on their first MSgt EPR. I've had guys make SMSgt with 2 solid EPRs on top, but the Shirt world is a whole different game. Tough nut to crack.

Monkey
12-14-2011, 06:10 AM
Hello every one, new poster here. I was curious if we had any Chiefs who have sat on a promotion board or someone that has talked to one about how many EPRs the board likes to see on top of an EPR missing a Senior Rater because of lack of CCAF?

I have 3 SRE EPRs on top, with the last 2 Top 3% FW Strats and a First Sgt of the year. The last 2 cycles they have dinged me pretty hard and I know as a Shirt it is even tougher.

The last Board brief that was posted (2005) he specifically mentioned 3 solid EPRs on top. Has anyone else heard of this or experienced this themselves?

Thanks for any info.

All I can offer is personal experience. I had a similar EPR story and yes, my board score jumped significantly when I finally had 3 SREs on top.

Everyone always likes to point out that making Senior/Chief as a First Sergeant is so difficult, but nobody ever explains why. It is because your pool of peers is full of people who have checked all of the boxes they need to make rank and almost all of them have SREs. You won't find that in most career fields.

DWWSWWD
12-14-2011, 01:46 PM
A friend of mine is a Shirt. He got First sergeant of the Year for the Wing and I was pretty excited about it for him. Surely that will get him promoted. He told me that there were 56 other equivalent level First Sergeants of the Year. Kind of put it in perspective for me. Probably part of the reason why we now strat Shirts with the rest of the sled dogs. Criminal in my mind. Also why we are now seeing First Sergeant Top III secretaries and such.

riffmast
12-14-2011, 03:26 PM
Thanks for all of the input. This is my 5th time testing. I only have this time and one more shot stepping back into maintenance before my HYT. I am pretty sure I scored at least an 85 on the test (scored a 79 last year). Combined with TIG, TIS,21 points for Medals, having Kunsan on my DVR, 3 solid (Strated) EPRS on top....I hope I can muster a 367.5. My first time as testing as a Shirt (and 1st year with CCAF/SRE EPR) I scored a 300, last year it jumped to a 330, I am hoping the rumors are true and year 3 testing as a Shirt is a big jump and can get me in the 367.5 to 375 range. If so, I will be golden.

My Command Chief here did help me out the best he could. I missed being able to get an EPR in before the PECD by 10 days (which sucks because I am the FSC President), but he did move me to a larger Sq after 120 days so I can get 2 EPRs out of Korea, thus burying those Non SRE EPRs a little more, which will help me next year if I didn't make it this year. It would have been awesome to get one in (Especially as FSC Pres) before the PECD, but my close out date from my last base just wouldn't allow it. It was cool of him to at least do this though and he wanted me in a Larger Sq.

If I don't make it this year, it looks good for stepping back to Maintenance next year. If not, I did my best. I now have 2 CCAFs and only need 3 more classes for my BSBA! I love the Air Force, but if it is time to move on...I have set myself up for success on the outside. I will keep everyone posted, as I am sure I am not alone in this question whether it be a CCAF or Course 12/14 that prevented someone from getting a SRE in the past.

Tak
12-14-2011, 04:03 PM
I had CCAF, 2 other degrees, course 12/14 complete and still no SRE...
Only matters if I was going for Senior...since I was not and am going to
retire, the AF lost mind control over me years ago...
I just hope all your eggs arent in the AF basket, becuase everyone
eventually gets out or reitres...then it's back to the real world...
and all the council presidencies, bake sales, glad handing will count for nothing.

Measure Man
12-14-2011, 04:27 PM
I had CCAF, 2 other degrees, course 12/14 complete and still no SRE...
Only matters if I was going for Senior...since I was not and am going to
retire, the AF lost mind control over me years ago...
I just hope all your eggs arent in the AF basket, becuase everyone
eventually gets out or reitres...then it's back to the real world...
and all the council presidencies, bake sales, glad handing will count for nothing.

Just in my own personal opinion...if I were evaluating records and had 2 people who did not get an SRE...one for an automatic reason, like CCAF...and the other not.

The person with the automatic reason would score higher, all other things being equal....mainly because the CC didn't choose NOT to sign the EPR, it was mandatory. In your case, he could've signed it, but chose not to...that sends a stronger message, IMO.

but you're right, if it's not for going for Senior, it doesn't really matter.

Deploy Me Please
12-14-2011, 04:45 PM
I hope it is unrecoverable (for me). My grand plan is coming along nicely. I am content and productive in my current job. Bachelors is done, 3 AAS degrees done, HSSYD approved, 1.5 years left to retire, & a promotion to Mr. in a location with decent job opportunities for former military. Mrs. Deploy Me Please would not allow me to turn down a promotion...that would mean an additional service commitment of at least one more year and an almost definate PCS to someplace I do not want to retire. The vision of that SMSgt prestige, the cash money, and the thought of standing tall amoungst throngs of minions is sure tempting. However, I am quite certain that I have sabotaged my promotion chances sufficiently to end that dream sequence before I get too carried away.

AF Chief
12-14-2011, 04:58 PM
I made Chief and my first EPR had no senior endorsement. Mine was for BS reasons (like not going to all the Top 3 meetings)...etc. My commander was worthless.

It can be done.

BRUWIN
12-14-2011, 05:39 PM
I made Chief and my first EPR had no senior endorsement. Mine was for BS reasons (like not going to all the Top 3 meetings)...etc. My commander was worthless.

It can be done.

Maybe I'm smoking crack but your first EPR as a SMSgt you aren't TIG eligible for SRE anyway are you?

SgtS
12-14-2011, 05:42 PM
Absolutely nothing wrong with being a Shirt and trying to get promoted. I understand that it is pretty difficult and I wish you luck!

The situation that really burns me though are the guys who become Shirts for the sole reason to GET promoted in their career fields once their time is up. I am encountering more and more of these waste-cases these days and they make the absolute WORST Shirts I have ever seen.

BRUWIN
12-14-2011, 06:11 PM
I am quite certain that I have sabotaged my promotion chances sufficiently to end that dream sequence before I get too carried away.

HAHA...I don't think you have at all. I for one seriously doubt it...as do a few others.

Tak
12-15-2011, 12:19 AM
Ironic, self serving promotion hungry shirts having hard time getting promoted...
Walking on water isn't good enough...if you are worried about promotion,
Probably shouldn't have become a shirt...I love the shirts that forget they
Are just another msgt whose job it is to handle crap personnel issues
So us other msgts can do our jobs...

riffmast
12-15-2011, 02:16 AM
I appreciate the constructive view points on here about a pretty specific question. There are some posts on here that make me scratch my head. I want to make one thing perfectly clear, the Amn I work for are my biggest concern and my actions, and Evaluation reflect exactly that. I am not sure if a few on here are sour or just like to talk crap. However, the correlation between being a First Sgt and asking a simple promotion question shouldn't be grounds to assume that one is promotion hungry. I was an Flightline Expeditor, Assistant Specialist Chief, ran a Demo Team, then an APG flight as a spec, then a Specialist Flight Chief before coming a shirt. If I wanted to make rank quicker, I would have stayed in the job I had.

I love being a Shirt because you help people. It is not for everyone. Also if you are one of the ones who have convinced yourself that doing anything extra outside the Sq (Prof Orgs, leadnig Ceremonies, volunteering) is hurting your people; you are a bigger problem then the people you are talking about. Stop blasting other people for making a difference in their Sq, on base, and in the community and do it your self or just keep your mouth shut. I know the stuff that I have done that led to high strats and a First Sgt of the year is because not only do I take care of my people, I take of my base, my Air Force, and my Community as well and set other people up for success (personal and professional) to do the same.

Tak
12-15-2011, 02:47 AM
I appreciate the constructive view points on here about a pretty specific question. There are some posts on here that make me scratch my head. I want to make one thing perfectly clear, the Amn I work for are my biggest concern and my actions, and Evaluation reflect exactly that. I am not sure if a few on here are sour or just like to talk crap. However, the correlation between being a First Sgt and asking a simple promotion question shouldn't be grounds to assume that one is promotion hungry. I was an Flightline Expeditor, Assistant Specialist Chief, ran a Demo Team, then an APG flight as a spec, then a Specialist Flight Chief before coming a shirt. If I wanted to make rank quicker, I would have stayed in the job I had.

I love being a Shirt because you help people. It is not for everyone. Also if you are one of the ones who have convinced yourself that doing anything extra outside the Sq (Prof Orgs, leadnig Ceremonies, volunteering) is hurting your people; you are a bigger problem then the people you are talking about. Stop blasting other people for making a difference in their Sq, on base, and in the community and do it your self or just keep your mouth shut. I know the stuff that I have done that led to high strats and a First Sgt of the year is because not only do I take care of my people, I take of my base, my Air Force, and my Community as well and set other people up for success (personal and professional) to do the same.

Pretty defensive...I have seen many a shirt...I now have a sure feeling for the type you are.
All ill say is some shirts work for the people and others work for the commander.
Some say they don't care about promotions, but secretly talk about it constantly and
Position themselves amongst their peers. So focused on big blue, they forget the shades
Of gray airman face day to day. Some start believing the hype and fancy themselves
An e-7+ and others stay grounding and tell leaders what they need to hear not
What they want to hear. Sad to see some try and get to the top while
Climbing over the backs of the people they are supposed to support.
If anyone is to the point of fretting over having three SRE's on top,
Priorities are suspect at best.

riffmast
12-15-2011, 03:42 AM
Pretty defensive...I have seen many a shirt...I now have a sure feeling for the type you are.
All ill say is some shirts work for the people and others work for the commander.
Some say they don't care about promotions, but secretly talk about it constantly and
Position themselves amongst their peers. So focused on big blue, they forget the shades
Of gray airman face day to day. Some start believing the hype and fancy themselves
An e-7+ and others stay grounding and tell leaders what they need to hear not
What they want to hear. Sad to see some try and get to the top while
Climbing over the backs of the people they are supposed to support.
If anyone is to the point of fretting over having three SRE's on top,
Priorities are suspect at best.
I think you are confused, but that is ok because there is only so much you can get across with words. My main concern with making rank is not the "prestige" of being a SMSgt as someone said in here, or a nice pay raise. It is to extend my career in the Air Force because I love it and I know I make a difference. I know because Amn come up to me with their problems, they approach me all over base. You must have never been a Shirt because your obvious text book short sided comment about some work for their people and some work for the commander made me laugh. I work for both, and we all work for the Air Force and the American people. I report to my Commander, he is my boss and it is my job to provide him and Enlisted Ready Force, which those 3 words mean a lot of things. I spend a lot more time dealing with people in the Sq then I do actually with my Commander. Though I don't technically work for my Chief, I sill value his incite, keep him informed when I can, and we do our best to come up with the best solutions as a team. My job, by it's nature is to take care of people, that includes my Commander and ultimately the Air Force. Sometimes taking care of people means helping them transition out of the Air Force.

I have dealt with death, suicide, abuse, drugs, child pornography, held a man crying because he had accidentally ran over his son killing him. You do your best to help these fellow Amn and get them to places that can assist. On the flip side, I have been there for Child births, promotions, assisted financial situations, help people get physically, mentally, and spiritually better. This job has a lot of challenges and like any job has its good and bad. I love it! So yeah, pardon me for getting a bit defensive for being attacked and labeled because I asked a simple promotion question. I came here to possibly get some mentoring an insight on information not only for me but a lot of people are asking and now I have a few on here that know my life story and what I am about.....pretty funny.

Anyways, once again thank you to all that provided some insight into my original question instead of being judgemental and automatically assuming the worst in someone. By the way, you can bet your butt every opportunity I get to mentor a younger SNCO, NCO, or Amn; I tell them not to make the same mistakes I have made. Although making mistakes is a great way to grow, the best mistake to learn from is still someone elses.

Measure Man
12-15-2011, 04:42 AM
I think you are confused, but that is ok because there is only so much you can get across with words. My main concern with making rank is not the "prestige" of being a SMSgt as someone said in here, or a nice pay raise. It is to extend my career in the Air Force because I love it and I know I make a difference. I know because Amn come up to me with their problems, they approach me all over base. You must have never been a Shirt because your obvious text book short sided comment about some work for their people and some work for the commander made me laugh. I work for both, and we all work for the Air Force and the American people. I report to my Commander, he is my boss and it is my job to provide him and Enlisted Ready Force, which those 3 words mean a lot of things. I spend a lot more time dealing with people in the Sq then I do actually with my Commander. Though I don't technically work for my Chief, I sill value his incite, keep him informed when I can, and we do our best to come up with the best solutions as a team. My job, by it's nature is to take care of people, that includes my Commander and ultimately the Air Force. Sometimes taking care of people means helping them transition out of the Air Force.

I have dealt with death, suicide, abuse, drugs, child pornography, held a man crying because he had accidentally ran over his son killing him. You do your best to help these fellow Amn and get them to places that can assist. On the flip side, I have been there for Child births, promotions, assisted financial situations, help people get physically, mentally, and spiritually better. This job has a lot of challenges and like any job has its good and bad. I love it! So yeah, pardon me for getting a bit defensive for being attacked and labeled because I asked a simple promotion question. I came here to possibly get some mentoring an insight on information not only for me but a lot of people are asking and now I have a few on here that know my life story and what I am about.....pretty funny.

Anyways, once again thank you to all that provided some insight into my original question instead of being judgemental and automatically assuming the worst in someone. By the way, you can bet your butt every opportunity I get to mentor a younger SNCO, NCO, or Amn; I tell them not to make the same mistakes I have made. Although making mistakes is a great way to grow, the best mistake to learn from is still someone elses.

There is NOTHING wrong with wanting to be promoted. It's the American way.

riffmast
12-15-2011, 05:19 AM
There is NOTHING wrong with wanting to be promoted. It's the American way.

Measure Man, I completely agree! Although I think that you can definitely go about it the wrong way as some have eluded to (I am just not one of those). What kind of suprised me a little bit was being (by a couple) labled for asking a question and giving as much Board data on myself to get some feedback from those who maybe had experience. I won't loose any sleep over it, but wow that is so little information to come out an call someone a promotion chaser and completlely disregard who they are and what they have done. I think some people are just angry and miserable. Military One Source is a great source to get some help for them, I have the number! hehe

riffmast
12-15-2011, 05:32 AM
Ironic, self serving promotion hungry shirts having hard time getting promoted...
Walking on water isn't good enough...if you are worried about promotion,
Probably shouldn't have become a shirt...I love the shirts that forget they
Are just another msgt whose job it is to handle crap personnel issues
So us other msgts can do our jobs...
To be honest with you, if MSgts (I am in that category) were doing theirs jobs, First Sgts wouldn't be in such demand. You are right a First Sergeant is a posistion/job, MSgt is my rank. What I really have a problem with is E-7's who don't know how to lead, or take care of Amn, and punt every issue they have to their First Sgt so "they can do their jobs". I will say this, I get much more respect as a Shirt then I did as a Master Sergeant without a Diamond. To me that is sad, and more of a reflection of MSgts as a whole not getting it done.

My Commander at my last base went TDY to talk to a CC prep class and he asked the class of majors what they thought was the biggest problem in the Air Force. The answer was a tough pill to swallow, they said "Today's MSgts". I know I am doing my part, are you?

20+Years
12-15-2011, 06:54 AM
I was actually about to speak up myself. There is nothing wrong with wanting to make SMSgt. You can be a good or great SNCO and still want to get promoted. I think the negativity that surrounds those wanting to get promoted comes from those who do not care, or those who will not put the effort into doing what needs to be done to get there.

In short, your board score, in my opinion, will continue to rise the farther the non-SRE's are buried. Those on a board will be able to tell at one time you didn't conform, then you did, and your accomplishments are impressive. Racked beside someone who has the same accomplishments but conformed earlier, you will be slightly lower, beside someone who conformed early but does not have the same accomplishments, I would guess you might be a tad higher. I know with March around the corner you are seeking comfort, but the god awful truth is none of us will know until the list comes out. I hope you make it. I hope I make it. I too would like to be promoted.

riffmast
12-15-2011, 08:12 AM
I was actually about to speak up myself. There is nothing wrong with wanting to make SMSgt. You can be a good or great SNCO and still want to get promoted. I think the negativity that surrounds those wanting to get promoted comes from those who do not care, or those who will not put the effort into doing what needs to be done to get there.

In short, your board score, in my opinion, will continue to rise the farther the non-SRE's are buried. Those on a board will be able to tell at one time you didn't conform, then you did, and your accomplishments are impressive. Racked beside someone who has the same accomplishments but conformed earlier, you will be slightly lower, beside someone who conformed early but does not have the same accomplishments, I would guess you might be a tad higher. I know with March around the corner you are seeking comfort, but the god awful truth is none of us will know until the list comes out. I hope you make it. I hope I make it. I too would like to be promoted.

Right on 20+Years! Good luck to you too. You know my question was geared towards my situation, but even if I had already made it; I would like to know is there a magic number that the Chiefs have. I definitely know how subjective each board is, but just like there are key words, I was curious if there was a key number. I would love to be a fly on the wall during a board, that would be a learning experience! Seriously, good luck!

Monkey
12-15-2011, 09:01 AM
To be honest with you, if MSgts (I am in that category) were doing theirs jobs, First Sgts wouldn't be in such demand. You are right a First Sergeant is a posistion/job, MSgt is my rank. What I really have a problem with is E-7's who don't know how to lead, or take care of Amn, and punt every issue they have to their First Sgt so "they can do their jobs". I will say this, I get much more respect as a Shirt then I did as a Master Sergeant without a Diamond. To me that is sad, and more of a reflection of MSgts as a whole not getting it done.

My Commander at my last base went TDY to talk to a CC prep class and he asked the class of majors what they thought was the biggest problem in the Air Force. The answer was a tough pill to swallow, they said "Today's MSgts". I know I am doing my part, are you?

That is a tiresome message that I hear all too often from shirts--the reason why your job is so hard is "because MSgts aren't doing their job." You know what, MSgts are people. Some are natural leaders and are good at taking care of their Amn. Some are not. As much as the AF likes to pretend it can train you do that, it doesn't always work out. MSgts are not there to make your job easier.

Being a shirt was a personal choice you made and if you chose that career path without knowing what you were getting into then that is your failure. You have no justfication to complain about any aspect of the job. Instead, what you should do is be thankful for anyone who does make your life/job easier.

Of course the Majors complain about MSgts. MSgts are the focal point whenever there is any type of problem (work production, training, personnel issues, etc.). Nobody else is held directly responsible for as much as a MSgt.

Oh, yeah. And thank for being a First Sergeant. Seriously, I do appreciate it. I sure as hell would never want that job.

Shrike
12-15-2011, 12:14 PM
That is a tiresome message that I hear all too often from shirts--the reason why your job is so hard is "because MSgts aren't doing their job." You know what, MSgts are people. Some are natural leaders and are good at taking care of their Amn. Some are not. As much as the AF likes to pretend it can train you do that, it doesn't always work out. MSgts are not there to make your job easier.

Being a shirt was a personal choice you made and if you chose that career path without knowing what you were getting into then that is your failure. You have no justfication to complain about any aspect of the job. Instead, what you should do is be thankful for anyone who does make your life/job easier.

Of course the Majors complain about MSgts. MSgts are the focal point whenever there is any type of problem (work production, training, personnel issues, etc.). Nobody else is held directly responsible for as much as a MSgt.

Oh, yeah. And thank for being a First Sergeant. Seriously, I do appreciate it. I sure as hell would never want that job.

Using that logic, NO ONE can complain about their job.

SgtS
12-15-2011, 01:00 PM
Using that logic, NO ONE can complain about their job.

No damn it! I want to whine!!!

Seriously ... like I already said earlier, there is nothing wrong with wanting to get promoted. Nothing at all.

My issue is when people become shirts to GET promoted later ... just to fill in a block. It's been my experience that these people are the worst possible Shirts and only care about themselves and their image.

Just don't be THAT guy and we'll get along famously!

Tak
12-15-2011, 01:18 PM
I also don't mind people wanting to get promoted, what I DO mind is people who claim they don't
but really do. Then they always talk about promotion and ask people what they are doing for it
and "don't you want to make Chief" Then they become president of everything and ensure they get
their name out in front of everyone. These people may not have been at the top of their AFSC, or
they probably wouldn't have left it. Some realy start believing the hype and think MSgts are the "problem"
Some think there job is more important that others. Some start getting out of touch after being a shirt
a few years. They have the feeling, without first shirts the supervisors and mission would fail.
Some shirts now are the new breed 10-12 MSgt who think they got all the answers and power, although
they lack experience. They get so wrapped up in the politics, they forget the daily grind out here.
Also, being a shirt is not that impressive. I respect what they do and almost became one. Not too long
ago they were making people be shirts. On my base I am friends with shirts and it's like a secret squirrel
club where everyone pines over positions. They talk in Acronyms....They use "FYI" in sentences...
But when the base wanted to take down the DUI sign, yep, they all folded under the command chief...

Monkey
12-15-2011, 02:39 PM
Using that logic, NO ONE can complain about their job.

Unless you work with poo, then I'll give you a pass.

Shrike
12-15-2011, 02:57 PM
Unless you work with poo, then I'll give you a pass.

No, that's just a hobby, not my job.

:faint2

AF Chief
12-15-2011, 03:24 PM
Maybe I'm smoking crack but your first EPR as a SMSgt you aren't TIG eligible for SRE anyway are you?

Yeap, I worded that wrong...my bad. My point was that you might not get a senior endorsement on a EPR (when eligible) and still make SMSgt or Chief. Of course, it might of set me back a year in promotion...who knows.

Measure Man
12-15-2011, 03:35 PM
To be honest with you, if MSgts (I am in that category) were doing theirs jobs, First Sgts wouldn't be in such demand.

Bullspit. A "normal" MSgt is not permitted to do the job in many cases...access/info is only given to "The First Sergeant"

I've seen many a "normal" MSgt pull Shirt duty, get non-vol'd into the career field, etc. and do a great job. First Sergeants are not any more dedicated and/or willing than any other MSgt.


You are right a First Sergeant is a posistion/job, MSgt is my rank. What I really have a problem with is E-7's who don't know how to lead, or take care of Amn, and punt every issue they have to their First Sgt so "they can do their jobs". I will say this, I get much more respect as a Shirt then I did as a Master Sergeant without a Diamond. To me that is sad, and more of a reflection of MSgts as a whole not getting it done.

That is sad, and it is true...but it is neither a reflection on your or on MSgts as a whole. Take that diamond off tomorrow and you'll be right back at the kids table. It is because of the way the AF has institutionalized the position of First Sergeant...and held it in much higher esteem than other SNCOs. Same way they are doing with CCMs compared to other Chiefs now.

The position is a bit over-hyped, IMO. Most of them are wonderful people who give their all...but then, so are most other MSgts.


My Commander at my last base went TDY to talk to a CC prep class and he asked the class of majors what they thought was the biggest problem in the Air Force. The answer was a tough pill to swallow, they said "Today's MSgts". I know I am doing my part, are you?

Hmmmm...my old First Sergeant used to say his biggest problem was SSgts.



I also don't mind people wanting to get promoted, what I DO mind is people who claim they don't
but really do. Then they always talk about promotion and ask people what they are doing for it
and "don't you want to make Chief" Then they become president of everything and ensure they get
their name out in front of everyone. These people may not have been at the top of their AFSC, or
they probably wouldn't have left it. Some realy start believing the hype and think MSgts are the "problem"
Some think there job is more important that others. Some start getting out of touch after being a shirt
a few years. They have the feeling, without first shirts the supervisors and mission would fail.
Some shirts now are the new breed 10-12 MSgt who think they got all the answers and power, although
they lack experience. They get so wrapped up in the politics, they forget the daily grind out here.
Also, being a shirt is not that impressive. I respect what they do and almost became one. Not too long
ago they were making people be shirts. On my base I am friends with shirts and it's like a secret squirrel
club where everyone pines over positions. They talk in Acronyms....They use "FYI" in sentences...
But when the base wanted to take down the DUI sign, yep, they all folded under the command chief...

I know some of those shirts, too.

I agree that I respect what First Sergeants do, and definitely appreciate the wisdom gained by those who have done it for a number of years...but it does not impress me any more (and maybe a litlte less) than a MSgt who can run phase dock effectively.

SgtS
12-15-2011, 03:48 PM
Hmmmm...my old First Sergeant used to say his biggest problem was SSgts.


I'd be more inclined to believe this one than the other. From my perspective it seems like too many SSgts more interested in being buddies with the Airmen instead of actually esuring mission accomplishment and enforcing standards. They don't want to hurt their friends feelings so let them get away with just about everything.

Tak
12-15-2011, 04:28 PM
I'd be more inclined to believe this one than the other. From my perspective it seems like too many SSgts more interested in being buddies with the Airmen instead of actually esuring mission accomplishment and enforcing standards. They don't want to hurt their friends feelings so let them get away with just about everything.

When Making SSgt was cut from 7/8 years to 3/4 years, there was a ton of experience loss, same goes from people who make
TSgt, MSgt, etc real early...Do they deserve the promotion: yes, do they lack years of experience: yes.

Edman
12-15-2011, 04:50 PM
When I was AD we had members of the promotion board put out info on what they saw as positives and negatives for EPRs. Being how there are "expectations" on how many actually get top Senior endorsement, I don't think it is a show stopper. It is more of what is actually written in the narrative that counts. What you did, how you did it and the impact on the mission or the result. Is the rater fighting for space in the block to list everything you did or is there a lot of white space. Do the statement actually say something or is it just flowery descriptions? When you read it, do you say wow or gee, that's nice?
Remember, your EPR should tell the reader why you are ready for increased responsibility. If it reads like you are just going to work and doing your job, then it will not separate you from the pack.

Tak
12-15-2011, 04:54 PM
Actually they used to provide info from boards, but now it is not authorized.
There has to be permission given to discuss board information. I would imagine
a Shirt would know this. Back in the old days there were point papers and
Chiefs giving feedback and advise...

Edman
12-15-2011, 04:57 PM
Actually they used to provide info from boards, but now it is not authorized.
There has to be permission given to discuss board information. I would imagine
a Shirt would know this. Back in the old days there were point papers and
Chiefs giving feedback and advise...

That is what I remember, but I retired in 04 so looks like things have changed in that regard. (I didn't read all the previous posts)

riffmast
12-15-2011, 04:58 PM
First of all, I am a MSgt. I think that MSgt is just like any, you have good and not so good. You have people that care, want to lead and take care of the people and the mission, and then you have the ones that are sitting on the bench and riding the easy train as long as they can until HYT comes along or until they get orders they don't want and pull chalks. You are right, a MSgts job is not to make a First Sgts job easier. However a MSgt who is in a Flight Chief posistion and doesn't know what Amn and Family Readiness is, can't resolve the simplest personal issue between people in his shop, and can't properly format a simple form like an LOC; there is something wrong. I know I could do that before I became a Shirt.

As a First Sgt, there are things that I am going to deal with. However, there are multiple things that should be handle at the Supervisor (much less the Flight Chief) level that make it to my desk. This is one of two reasons for this, their chain is too concentrated on the job and don't want to take the time to deal with a personal issue or they don't know how. Either way, it is a mass failure. I am not saying that all MSgts and places are like this. I will say that in the 4 Squadrons I have been a First Sgt for, I have seen it at all four.
I remember when I was an Amn and MSgts didn't even have a roof. I so looked up to and respected them. I would almost get nervous talking to my Flight Chief MSgt because of the respect I had for that rank. He could do everything, had all of the answers both work and personal, and if he didn't....He knew who did and it wasn't the First Sgt unless it was that specific type of issue. Unfortunately, in my experience you just don't see that as nearly as much anymore.

I love my job and have said that multiple times in here. However a First Sgt doesn't exist to write everyone's Admin Action, or to stop little Johnny from being late when nothing has been done at the flight level, or we are not the uniform police because no one else will correct and properly mentor proper uniform wear. This whole thing is not an attack on MSgts,because that is exactly what I am. However if you (regardless of rank) think that just doing your job well is all it takes; you are in the wrong profession. Also if you are complaining because a guy becomes an AFSA or TOP 3 President, or heads up a committee....I hope it makes you sleep better at night. Those are important positions for the betterment of the individual from a professional stand point, but even more important for the betterment of that organization and the people affected by it. It is pretty easy to point your finger and criticize why someone is doing something, then to get off your butt and make a difference yourself. The biggest crap line I get from these people is "I am taking care of my own people", and for some this is true....but for most it is a line. They just don't want to do the things that are spelled out as requirements in the little brown book for every level, it is easier for them to talk crap about the people that are doing those things that need to be done to make themselves feel better.

Tak
12-15-2011, 05:00 PM
Here is an example from af mentor:http://www.afmentor.com/mentor/cy04CMSGT.htm

riffmast
12-15-2011, 05:04 PM
Actually they used to provide info from boards, but now it is not authorized.
There has to be permission given to discuss board information. I would imagine
a Shirt would know this. Back in the old days there were point papers and
Chiefs giving feedback and advise...
I think most do know this. I know I wrote in one of the first paragraphs that it stopped in 2005.

Edman
12-15-2011, 05:25 PM
I think most do know this. I know I wrote in one of the first paragraphs that it stopped in 2005.

Probably my bad, as I didn't read all the previous posts.

riffmast
12-15-2011, 05:30 PM
Probably my bad, as I didn't read all the previous posts.
Na Edman, Tak is a guy/gal that likes to take shots at people. It's all good though.

Measure Man
12-15-2011, 05:31 PM
Actually they used to provide info from boards, but now it is not authorized.
There has to be permission given to discuss board information. I would imagine
a Shirt would know this. Back in the old days there were point papers and
Chiefs giving feedback and advise...

Those were great and never should have been stopped.

It did tick some people off to see the Evaluator inject some of his on BS bias in reading too much into the bullets though.

riffmast
12-15-2011, 06:03 PM
Those were great and never should have been stopped.

It did tick some people off to see the Evaluator inject some of his on BS bias in reading too much into the bullets though.

Ya, it was funny to see how some of the stuff was the same in the stuff Boards I found from 01-05. However, there were a few statements that were polar opposites on how they viewed things. I guess it really shows how subjective the Boards really are.

Also Measure, I didn't mean to offend you with any of the MSgt stuff. It was a generalized statement to the E-7's out there not being leaders. I am a MSgt and don't think I am better because I have a Diamond and a position. I will say that unless youy do the job, you will never understand it. Someone mentioned secret squirrel stuff, that made me laugh. Our job requires us to know somethings that isn't public information, like a lot of jobs in the AF. Also, I don't think people understand how much is put on our plate by the Command Chief. That is not a complaint, it is a fact. Man, I love being a Shirt and dealing with and helping people. I also loved being an AFSA President because of what AFSA does and how much doing that job helped me grow as a person. Hell, it wasn't even my idea. My Chief at the time gave me the mentorship and the nudge to step up and run. I busted my butt to be a great First Sgt first and then also an AFSA President, but wow was it rewarding and I grew a lot that year. That was an experience it would have been hard to capture by doing anything else. I am now the Councils Senior Advisor here and just providing input and guidance to the current council based on what I learned and mistakes I made. Then you have a few naysayers who go around judging everyone who does something extra as only trying to get promoted....pretty sad and pathetic.

There is only one reason I haven't been promoted yet and that is because of me. I knew the requirement for CCAF and didn't have it. I owned up to that, and had a simple question as to how long are you dinged for it....then get pelted by a couple people that won't even take the time to read the whole paragraph before passing judgement.... Also very sad!

It is all good though. I hope I make it, I hope you make it! If I don't, I have one more shot....if that doesn't happen, I will get out with 24 years 2 CCAFS, a BSBA (working on my Masters), and most important to me knowing I left this great Air Force better off because I took the time to mentor, go to the Amn and 5/6 meetings when I could as a SNCO, held people to the standard and made sure they knew why it is important, and probably to sum it all up....gave a Sh**! Although I would love to be a SMSgt, I am not overly worried about it. I would like to understand the process better, so I can pass on that information during mentoring sessions.

Measure Man
12-15-2011, 06:06 PM
Ya, it was funny to see how some of the stuff was the same in the stuff Boards I found from 01-05. However, there were a few statements that were polar opposites on how they viewed things. I guess it really shows how subjective the Boards really are.

Also Measure, I didn't mean to offend you with any of the MSgt stuff. It was a generalized statement to the E-7's out there not being leaders. I am a MSgt and don't think I am better because I have a Diamond and a position. I will say that unless youy do the job, you will never understand it. Someone mentioned secret squirrel stuff, that made me laugh. Our job requires us to know somethings that isn't public information, like a lot of jobs in the AF. Also, I don't think people understand how much is put on our plate by the Command Chief. That is not a complaint, it is a fact. Man, I love being a Shirt and dealing with and helping people. I also loved being an AFSA President because of what AFSA does and how much doing that job helped me grow as a person. Hell, it wasn't even my idea. My Chief at the time gave me the mentorship and the nudge to step up and run. I busted my butt to be a great First Sgt first and then also an AFSA President, but wow was it rewarding and I grew a lot that year. That was an experience it would have been hard to capture by doing anything else. I am now the Councils Senior Advisor here and just providing input and guidance to the current council based on what I learned and mistakes I made. Then you have a few naysayers who go around judging everyone who does something extra as only trying to get promoted....pretty sad and pathetic.

There is only one reason I haven't been promoted yet and that is because of me. I knew the requirement for CCAF and didn't have it. I owned up to that, and had a simple question as to how long are you dinged for it....then get pelted by a couple people that won't even take the time to read the whole paragraph before passing judgement.... Also very sad!

It is all good though. I hope I make it, I hope you make it! If I don't, I have one more shot....if that doesn't happen, I will get out with 24 years 2 CCAFS, a BSBA (working on my Masters), and most important to me knowing I left this great Air Force better off because I took the time to mentor, go to the Amn and 5/6 meetings when I could as a SNCO, held people to the standard and made sure they knew why it is important, and probably to sum it all up....gave a Sh**! Although I would love to be a SMSgt, I am not overly worried about it. I would like to understand the process better, so I can pass on that information during mentoring sessions.

Well, I hope I don't make SMSgt...I'm a CMSgt (ret.)

riffmast
12-15-2011, 10:06 PM
Well, I hope I don't make SMSgt...I'm a CMSgt (ret.)
HA, sorry Chief....mixed you up with someone else who said they were testing. Thank you for your service and input here. What was your primary job when you were in?

Tak
12-15-2011, 11:51 PM
Na Edman, Tak is a guy/gal that likes to take shots at people. It's all good though.

No worries RIF MSgt...I don't have a personal problem with you; just a professional one.

riffmast
12-16-2011, 12:38 AM
No worries RIF MSgt...I don't have a personal problem with you; just a professional one.
It's all good Tak, I could care less. As retired AETC Command Chief Rob Tappana use to say, "you will always have the dogs barking from the front porch at the cars passing them by. The people in the car don't really pay attention because they are going places". Bark away Tak.

Tak
12-16-2011, 12:48 AM
It's all good Tak, I could care less. As retired AETC Command Chief Rob Tappana use to say, "you will always have the dogs barking from the front porch at the cars pass them by. The people in the car don't really pay attention because they are going places". Bark away Tak.

Wow, everything you say is about you, your accomplishments and referencing Chiefs.
I actually may know you...

riffmast
12-16-2011, 02:59 AM
Wow, everything you say is about you, your accomplishments and referencing Chiefs.
I actually may know you...
That is because you are a negative person Tak, and negative people look for negative things and will find them, even if their findings are based on ass umptions. I didn't say he said it to me, he said it to a lot of people. Also if taking advice from someone who has reached the top 1% of their profession is bad, color me guilty.

20+Years
12-16-2011, 07:26 AM
Well, I hope I don't make SMSgt...I'm a CMSgt (ret.)

I think I still have better than average shot at seeing AB again. :ohwell

Mr. Happy
12-16-2011, 11:06 AM
You can recover from the lost SRE; especially if you put three strong EPRs on the top, which it appears you are working on. I knew a guy who lost his, and he still made SMSgt several cycles later, and now he's a chief select too. So it can be done. The key is to continue doing great things, and never give up. I've seen people give up before only to miss it the next promotion cycle by a few points. They didn't study and they pulled 40s or 50s on the test, and all they needed was like a 65 or something (very attainable). Also, there is nothing, and I mean nothing wrong with wanting to go as far as your career and your abilities can take you. There's also nothing wrong at all retiring as a MSgt, but I think some people who say they don't/or didn't want to make senior or chief are full of shit. Going as far as you can in life to better yourself, your organization and being able to provide a better life for your family is the American way.

Speaking from my own experience, the very first time I tested for SMSgt my top EPR was non-SRE, because supposively I was not TIG eligible that year (that was the box that was checked), but apparently I was eligible. I scored a 322.5 board that year (no chance in hell for senior). I'm not so sure someone eligible to test would not ever be eligible for the SRE too if testing (someone correct me if I'm wrong). If the board sees a non-SRE EPR on top regardless of the intent or reason, it raises a flag to the board. Come to find out, I was eligible for the SRE that particular year, so I got the EPR over-turned and corrected in my record and the next year my board shot to a 375 and I was the #2 non-select (missed it by less than 2 points). One year made that much difference from correcting the non-SRE and adding another decent EPR on top. Like I said, NEVER give up and don't listen to the haters.

Shrike
12-16-2011, 12:25 PM
That is because you are a negative person Tak, and negative people look for negative things and will find them, even if their findings are based on ass umptions. I didn't say he said it to me, he said it to a lot of people. Also if taking advice from someone who has reached the top 1% of their profession is bad, color me guilty.Don't worry too much about TAK. He's a bitter old MSgt that will never get promoted again and who feels that anyone who managed to advance farther than he was able to must have done so by putting a lot of balls on their chin.

riffmast
12-17-2011, 03:10 AM
You can recover from the lost SRE; especially if you put three strong EPRs on the top, which it appears you are working on. I knew a guy who lost his, and he still made SMSgt several cycles later, and now he's a chief select too. So it can be done. The key is to continue doing great things, and never give up. I've seen people give up before only to miss it the next promotion cycle by a few points. They didn't study and they pulled 40s or 50s on the test, and all they needed was like a 65 or something (very attainable). Also, there is nothing, and I mean nothing wrong with wanting to go as far as your career and your abilities can take you. There's also nothing wrong at all retiring as a MSgt, but I think some people who say they don't/or didn't want to make senior or chief are full of shit. Going as far as you can in life to better yourself, your organization and being able to provide a better life for your family is the American way.

Speaking from my own experience, the very first time I tested for SMSgt my top EPR was non-SRE, because supposively I was not TIG eligible that year (that was the box that was checked), but apparently I was eligible. I scored a 322.5 board that year (no chance in hell for senior). I'm not so sure someone eligible to test would not ever be eligible for the SRE too if testing (someone correct me if I'm wrong). If the board sees a non-SRE EPR on top regardless of the intent or reason, it raises a flag to the board. Come to find out, I was eligible for the SRE that particular year, so I got the EPR over-turned and corrected in my record and the next year my board shot to a 375 and I was the #2 non-select (missed it by less than 2 points). One year made that much difference from correcting the non-SRE and adding another decent EPR on top. Like I said, NEVER give up and don't listen to the haters.
Solid post, thanks!

riffmast
12-17-2011, 03:29 AM
Don't worry too much about TAK. He's a bitter old MSgt that will never get promoted again and who feels that anyone who managed to advance farther than he was able to must have done so by putting a lot of balls on their chin.
Ya, I hear ya Shrike......I know quite a few like that. To be honest I know some awesome MSgts who are content with being a MSgt and will never see Senior. They are the salt of the Earth and very good at what they do. However, they also don't talk crap about the guys/gals doing the extra stuff and try to flip it into some self serving venture that is all about themselves and takes away from everyone around them. People like that are pretty sad. Don't get me wrong, I have seen the ones stuck on careerism, however that is not the case with me or a lot of people trying to better their careers.

The last thing I will say is I was brought up to do things "for the right reason" and you hear that a lot. I said it for most of my career and that is what personally works for me. However a few years ago a mentor I had kind of opened my eyes a bit and it initially shocked me when she said it. She said "who cares why they are doing it as long as it is getting done"? "If a person rushes into a house on fire and saves a baby because it is the right thing to do, or if they do it if they do it to be a hero and be publicly recognized; the baby is still saved from the fire"! Her point was there are many reasons why people do things, but as long as it is not at the detriment of anyone else, who cares why as long as the task is getting done? She then said "the real problem lies in the people too lazy to do things themselves or the Holier than thou types who deem themselves worthy and capable enough to judge other peoples actions. These people are the ones who create animosity among everyone, which leads to lack of communication and arguing and bickering". She was absolutely right!

Tak
12-17-2011, 03:36 AM
Ya, I hear ya Shrike......I know quite a few like that. To be honest I know some awesome MSgts who are content with being a MSgt and will never see Senior. They are the salt of the Earth and very good at what they do. However, they also don't talk crap about the guys/gals doing the extra stuff and try to flip it into some self serving venture that is all about themselves and takes away from everyone around them. People like that are pretty sad. Don't get me wrong, I have seen the ones stuck on careerism, however that is not the case with me or a lot of people trying to better their careers.

The last thing I will say is I was brought up to do things "for the right reason" and you hear that a lot. I said it for most of my career and that is what personally works for me. However a few years ago a mentor I had kind of opened my eyes a bit and it initially shocked me when she said it. She said "who cares why they are doing it as long as it is getting done"? "If a person rushes into a house on fire and saves a baby because it is the right thing to do, or if they do it if they do it to be a hero and be publicly recognized; the baby is still saved from the fire"! Her point was there are many reasons why people do things, but as long as it is not at the detriment of anyone else, who cares why as long as the task is getting done? She then said "the real problem lies in the people too lazy to do things themselves or the Holier than thou types who deem themselves worthy and capable enough to judge other peoples actions. These people are the ones who create animosity among everyone, which leads to lack of communication and arguing and bickering". She was absolutely right!

I think I'm starting to like you...Hell, I might even love you...you can come over to my house and f my sister.

BRUWIN
12-17-2011, 05:02 AM
It's all good Tak, I could care less. As retired AETC Command Chief Rob Tappana use to say, "you will always have the dogs barking from the front porch at the cars passing them by. The people in the car don't really pay attention because they are going places". Bark away Tak.

Then there are the dogs that take off after the car and try get it to stop so they can bite the tires...these are your negative MSgt's close to HYT that want to take you down before they leave. These guys crack me up. When I was a young MSgt on the flightline passing them by they tried like hell to slow me down. They were some ruthless and downright lieing bastards. Thankfully, good leaders saw through them easily.

riffmast
12-17-2011, 05:39 AM
Then there are the dogs that take off after the car and try get it to stop so they can bite the tires...these are your negative MSgt's close to HYT that want to take you down before they leave. These guys crack me up. When I was a young MSgt on the flightline passing them by they tried like hell to slow me down. They were some ruthless and downright lieing bastards. Thankfully, good leaders saw through them easily.

I have seen that myself. When I was earlier in my career, my goal was to make MSgt and pin on before 17 so I could have it on 3 years and retire at 20. I did that. I wasn't burning it up, but was happy with my progression. It was when I became a Flight Line Expeditor as a TSgt at about my 15 year mark I started thinking about more than 20 years. I really liked dealing with people. I can honestly say that every time I put the proper effort into getting promoted, it happened. I should be a SMSgt by now, but I did it to myself. I knew I needed a CCAF and didn't get it in time for first eligible EPR, although I will say I didn't know it would haunt me for 3 maybe more years...but still it is all on me.

You better bet your butt that I am all over SSgts, TSgts, and young Masters to get their stuff done! I also share what I have learned. For example a Shirt came up to me and said hey did you know if you have more than 90 Sem Hours towards your BA, you can go to the Education Center and have them update that and it will reflect on your DVR so the Board knows you are closer than a person who has just started it. I didn't know that at the time. He told me as if shhhhh, keep it on the down low so only a select few will know. He was my friend and a cool guy, but that was a bunch of BS! If someone has that, then it should be reflected and I shared it with everyone I talk to.

Like I said, I am a 22 plus year Master. I have been passed by a lot of people. Hell, we just had a Shirt make Chief and she just went over 15 years! She is a great Shirt and a great person, I can only imagine the effort it took to get there that fast! When I see people get promoted to Senior and even Chief that have less time than I do, I am sincerely happy for them. Promotion is an awesome thing. My only source of frustration comes from my own mistakes that have put me where I am at now, trying to recover.

I will say that if I had all of my squares filled and would have made Senior 3 or 4 cycles ago, then I probably would have never had a chance to be an under shirt and find out how much I love the job and obviously never became a Shirt. I can honestly say that I wouldn't trade being a SMSgt 3 years ago for becoming a Shirt! Everything happens for a reason. Hopefully I can recover in the next 2 cycles....if not; it has been one hell of a ride and I look forward to the next adventure!

SgtS
12-17-2011, 01:48 PM
Like I said, I am a 22 plus year Master. I have been passed by a lot of people. Hell, we just had a Shirt make Chief and she just went over 15 years! She is a great Shirt and a great person, I can only imagine the effort it took to get there that fast! When I see people get promoted to Senior and even Chief that have less time than I do, I am sincerely happy for them. Promotion is an awesome thing. My only source of frustration comes from my own mistakes that have put me where I am at now, trying to recover.

Certainly no offense to the promotion system or the young lady that you mention making chief at 15, but I would much rather have you, as a 22 year MSgt in a position making critical decisions than someone who made Chief in 15 years. I certainly am happy that she made it, but to be completely honest, I would question her practical experience. Not because I'm jealous she made a certain rank before me (though I am sure some will accuse me of lying through my teeth, but I'm just not wired to be jealous in that way), but in my experience, the people who make it that fast also make A LOT of mistakes and bad calls when they are suddenly thrust into a position they are totally unprepared for. When I look back and compare the folks I know that were fast burners and those that took their time, it was those folks that had a ton of experience in their histories that were much more capable of making tough calls and sound decisions that got everything done and keep things humming.

But hey, you have get the experience from somewhere right? I just don't want to be around when it is one of those fast burners making those calls. Too often I have seen them freeze like a deer in headlights, dither in uncertainty, or worse make the totally wrong call. And with the power their decisions carry due to the positions they hold, those wrong calls make EVERYONE's life miserable and morale goes into the toilet.

Now, I'm not going to say EVERY fast burner I have encountered has screwed up because of their lack of experience, but I will say that it is the rare one that doesn't based on what I have seen. I really would like to see some sort of SERIOUS mentorship program for fast burners. Hook them up with someone who has been around the block for a while before saying "Congrats on your new rank, go nuts!". It just might give them the experience they need and deserve, while mitigating the damage their inexperience can potentially cause.

LoL ... WOW this went on longer than expected. I'll get off my soap box now I guess!

Tak
12-17-2011, 02:37 PM
Yeah kind of a mixed bag with people making rank early.
Another thing I have seen is the guy who makes rank late,
Who was average at best and suddenly thinks they are all
Powerful. They finally put on msgt and now want all AB to
Tsgts to stand up when they enter the room. They also
Get their ccaf and things finally done just so they can be
Shirts. Kind of funny to watch. They never earned respect,
So now they demand respect only on the merit of their rank.

riffmast
12-17-2011, 03:02 PM
Anybody who stands only on their rank and or position is a joke. People may do what they are required to, but you will never get the extra mile from them. I think getting experience in the rank can be a plus, but people can grow into the rank as well. I think one of the biggest reasons I have been successful with people is I try to empathize with them and put myself in their shoes before deciding on how to deal with an issue. To many people deal with the surface issue and don't take the time to find out what the root cause is, and get upset when issues keep popping up with that individual.

riffmast
03-25-2012, 11:40 AM
I received a request for an update, so for educational purposes if anyone else is looking at this here is what happened in my case. I didn't make Senior. My board score did go up, but didn't make the jump I had hoped. This was my 5th time testing but for my last 3 board scores as a Shirt and having my CCAF are as follows. My first year as a Shirt I received a 300 Board Score and was like number 680 out of 750, my second year as a Shirt I received a 330 Board Score and jumped to 192 out of 670, this year my Board Score was a 345 and I was number 52 out of like 670 of non selects. I missed it by 17 this year. My jumps were do more to my TIG/TIS and test scores (a 79 last year and a 83.5 this year). I had what I needed pegged (a 367.5). The Shirt career field is tough! The good news is I made it by over 8 points in the 2A6X0 career field I am stepping back to in June.

Bottom line is you can recover from a Non Senior Rater Endorsed EPR, but it is going to take time (3-5 years) with solid stuff on top and a good test score. It will probably be a little less catch up in other career fields. Shirt Boards are notoriously tough.

I was bummed, but can't complain too much. I won Shirt of the Year again for the Wing (2 out of 3 years as a Shirt), got to Fly in an F-16, going to the base I really want to (which prob would have been canx'd if I had made Senior), and the biggest thing is I know the positive impact I have had on my base over the last 10 months. I have had an amazing year in Korea both personally and professionally. No one can take that away. I have one more shot stepping back to maintenance and it should not be a problem at all with another solid test score.

For those TSgts and below who might read this (and young Masters) get your stuff done (Course 14 and CCAF)! Don't be foolish and think that great EPRs, awards, and a high score on your test will make up for a blemish in your records. I can tell you from experience, it doesn't. You can recover, but it will take at least a few years. Don't put yourself in that boat...learn from my mistake and get your stuff done and just as important, talk to others about getting their stuff done as well! Hopefully this helps somebody!

Deploy Me Please
03-25-2012, 12:35 PM
It depends on the career field and what else is in your records. I had SRE back in 07. Then I went several years without SRE because of the CCAF requirement. This year was the first year I had SRE and I made SMSgt...my board score jumped 80 points in one year. I also finished my Bachelor degree, & my EPR closed out with a two star (procedural/supervisory change in the unit). I had my CCAF for the board last year, but it was after my EPR closed out so no SRE. My board score didn't budge at all last year even with the CCAF. SRE was what they were waiting for, it seems. No strats either.

riffmast
03-25-2012, 01:38 PM
It depends on the career field and what else is in your records. I had SRE back in 07. Then I went several years without SRE because of the CCAF requirement. This year was the first year I had SRE and I made SMSgt...my board score jumped 80 points in one year. I also finished my Bachelor degree, & my EPR closed out with a two star (procedural/supervisory change in the unit). I had my CCAF for the board last year, but it was after my EPR closed out so no SRE. My board score didn't budge at all last year even with the CCAF. SRE was what they were waiting for, it seems. No strats either.

It definitely depends on your Career field, especially if it is not a big career field.

mjt
03-25-2012, 01:53 PM
Thanks for the update, Riff. I bookmarked this thread and hadn't thought to ask how you did until recently. I think you'll see another jump in board score next cycle, and a significant one at that. If my understanding is correct, your board score reflects merits relative to peers in youur career field. First Sergeants are typically squared away and have a stellar track record which is why someone must really stand out from the pack to get promoted during their 3 years as one. It's also why First Sergeants generally see a jump in board score after returning to their previous career field; what is considered average as an 8F can stand out in other career fields. Thanks for following up; good luck and I look forward to seeing your name on the list next year!

riffmast
03-25-2012, 10:18 PM
And some people, are well.....fill in the blank.

Drackore
03-26-2012, 01:59 PM
Fine, call me institutionalized. I love being in the AF. I like getting promoted. I like taking care of people and helping them grow. I *REALLY* like fighting my bosses (behind closed doors) when some BS is about to roll down that negatively affects my people and every other "yes man" lacks the balls to stand up for what's right.

In that regard, now that I am a MSgt, I really have no desire to preside over the Top 3 Fundraising Brigade or pursue a Master's Degree just to get considered for promotion. Do I want to make Chief? Absolutely. We are lacking REAL Chiefs these days, in fact we are lacking in real SNCOs for that matter (ones that don't JUST command/demand respect but also earn it!). If I can't get SMSgt or Chief based on test and board scores...oh well. I ain't crying. I just ain't going to jump through rediculous hoops to get SRE. I know that, when I retire, I can look back and say "I did just fine by myself and others".

riffmast
03-26-2012, 02:16 PM
Fine, call me institutionalized. I love being in the AF. I like getting promoted. I like taking care of people and helping them grow. I *REALLY* like fighting my bosses (behind closed doors) when some BS is about to roll down that negatively affects my people and every other "yes man" lacks the balls to stand up for what's right.

In that regard, now that I am a MSgt, I really have no desire to preside over the Top 3 Fundraising Brigade or pursue a Master's Degree just to get considered for promotion. Do I want to make Chief? Absolutely. We are lacking REAL Chiefs these days, in fact we are lacking in real SNCOs for that matter (ones that don't JUST command/demand respect but also earn it!). If I can't get SMSgt or Chief based on test and board scores...oh well. I ain't crying. I just ain't going to jump through rediculous hoops to get SRE. I know that, when I retire, I can look back and say "I did just fine by myself and others".
For the most part if you are doing your job and have your squares filled, you will get a SRE EPR. I didn't initially when eligible because I didn't have my CCAF. This is just my opinion, but too many people view AFSA or the TOP 3 and other Professional Orgs as a place that only mindless promotion chasers go to fight over scraps that will help them get strats. That is absolute BS, although some do attend for that reason. To me those Pro Orgs exist for us as SNCOs to network with each other and find better ways to help the base and the Amn (Capital A). I am a big AFSA guy because I whole heartedly beleive in what that organization does for those that have, are, and will wear the uniform. Their 2 lobbyist bust their butts and have the ear of those on the hill. They are trying to take more and more away from us, and AFSA is one of our biggest assets in that fight against losing what we fight for and spend times away from our family in harms way to get. To be honest with you, it is more of the guys talking crap because they don't want to do the extra things and find it easier to talk crap about those that do and question their motives that give our younger Amn the wrong impression. If you don't want to do the extra stuff, fine....but don't be an A-hole and talk crap about people who do and belittle the Professional Orgs that our little brown book says specifically we will support.

riffmast
03-01-2013, 07:52 AM
Well, great new....I made Senior! I stepped back to my old career field. I had a 397.5 (two 9s and a 8.5) which was the third highest tier. The highest was a 412.5. I scored an 84 on the PDG for a total score of just over 713 with a line number under 100. I think 2 things helped me, obviously stepping back to my career field and I added 2 more EPRs to put 5 good EPRs (4 with good strats) on top of the last non Senior rater endorsed EPR because of the no CCAF. Hard to say if I would have made it had I stayed a Shirt, it would have been close. Their cutoff shot up quite a bit to a 682. Who knows?

The reason I am posting is not to gloat, but to maybe show someone that you can recover from having some blemishes. It just takes time, and hard work! In my case, it took 5 EPRs to put on top....but it may not be so many in another career field besides First Sgt. I have always heard 3 to 5 EPRs and in my case it was 5.

I feel blessed to make the Top 3% of the Enlisted Force. It was a long journey but well worth the time, energy, and effort. No one gets promoted alone, especially to the top 2 ranks. I had a lot of help and support....the best part was I got to do A LOT of good as a Shirt and learned a lot as well!

I hope this helps someone who is in the same boat I was. You can do it, if you put your mind to it!

CrustySMSgt
03-01-2013, 07:59 AM
Great news... glad you kept doing good things and were recognized for that!

Of course by giving up your line number, you removed any anonymity you had... if you care

riffmast
03-01-2013, 08:26 AM
Great news... glad you kept doing good things and were recognized for that!

Of course by giving up your line number, you removed any anonymity you had... if you care

Not really, but changed to be safe. Thank you!

BRUWIN
03-01-2013, 08:53 AM
The reason I am posting is not to gloat, but to maybe show someone that you can recover from having some blemishes. I hope this helps someone who is in the same boat I was. You can do it, if you put your mind to it!

If I were you I'd be gloating. My post would have read something like "Hey all you dumb asses...I made SMSgt so take your Senior Rater and stick it up all your azzes!!!!"

Seriously though.....congrats.

riffmast
03-02-2013, 12:58 AM
If I were you I'd be gloating. My post would have read something like "Hey all you dumb asses...I made SMSgt so take your Senior Rater and stick it up all your azzes!!!!"

Seriously though.....congrats.
HAHA! Nice! I am gloating on the inside! hehe

KellyinAvon
03-02-2013, 01:33 AM
First of all, congrats on the promotion.
2nd: (as someone who had a line number for SMSgt of 237 I can ask this) < 100?? How many tries was that?
3rd: You necroposted your own post. That's Bob's turf.
BLOB: (bottom line on bottom, Bob) congrats again.

mjt
03-02-2013, 04:23 PM
Great news, congrats Riff! I'm glad your perseverance paid off. I was able to clue together who you were because of a certain article you wrote that focused on the same topic you originally posted here. It was a good article btw, and why i asked you to bump the thread last year. Always happy to see deserving people make it.

riffmast
03-06-2013, 05:23 AM
Thanks MJT, it was funny because I wrote that article for that specific base, expecting a handful to read it. I received posts from all over the place saying they really enjoyed it.

Kelly, this was my 6th time testing. I self eliminated the first 2 times with no CCAF (so no senior rater EPR as well), got my CCAF and became a Shirt, came pretty close my 3rd time as a Shirt, 5th time over all, and on my 6th time stepping back to my old careerfield made it by 65 points. I will admit I had to bust my ass, but it is all stuff that I really enjoyed and I grew as a person and a leader. Also, I can honestly say that yes I wanted to get promoted, but all the steps I took was to benefit others.
I didn't step on anyone, as a matter of fact I helped others become better leaders, including 2 of them much younger than me that made Senior this cycle as well. That was very rewarding in it self.

Robert F. Dorr
03-09-2013, 04:16 PM
Still trying to understand why they have a rule that having CCAF makes you a better candidate for promotion. Why?

sandsjames
03-09-2013, 04:53 PM
Still trying to understand why they have a rule that having CCAF makes you a better candidate for promotion. Why?

The reasoning is that the CCAF is directly related to your career field (questionable) while a higher degree is not. This means that, in their eyes, if you get your CCAF you are trying to better yourself in relationship to your career while if you get the higher degree which, in most cases, doesn't relate specifically to one's career field, you are doing it for personal reasons. The justification is that they'd rather have somebody earn a CCAF because that shows dedication to the Air Force, not to yourself.

FLAPS
03-09-2013, 10:31 PM
The reasoning is that the CCAF is directly related to your career field (questionable) while a higher degree is not. This means that, in their eyes, if you get your CCAF you are trying to better yourself in relationship to your career while if you get the higher degree which, in most cases, doesn't relate specifically to one's career field, you are doing it for personal reasons. The justification is that they'd rather have somebody earn a CCAF because that shows dedication to the Air Force, not to yourself.

All the training you get that counts towards a CCAF you will get anyway, so the difference between that training and the classes (CLEPS, etc) taken for that CCAF don't do squat to make you better at your job.

sandsjames
03-09-2013, 10:48 PM
All the training you get that counts towards a CCAF you will get anyway, so the difference between that training and the classes (CLEPS, etc) taken for that CCAF don't do squat to make you better at your job.I agree with you. I wasn't stating my opinion. I was explain to Bob the AF's reasoning.

KellyinAvon
03-09-2013, 11:17 PM
All the training you get that counts towards a CCAF you will get anyway, so the difference between that training and the classes (CLEPS, etc) taken for that CCAF don't do squat to make you better at your job.

Did you get up this morning and say, "Today I'm going to talk a bunch of sh!t about the CCAF even though doing that has gotten my arse ARC LIGHTed more often than the VIET CONG?? (that's Vietnamese Communist Guerillas, not for Bob in this case, and ARC LIGHT missions were flown in Vietnam, they were 3-ships of B-52Ds dropping enough bombs to knock you down if you were a kilometer away)

KellyinAvon
03-09-2013, 11:18 PM
Thanks MJT, it was funny because I wrote that article for that specific base, expecting a handful to read it. I received posts from all over the place saying they really enjoyed it.

Kelly, this was my 6th time testing. I self eliminated the first 2 times with no CCAF (so no senior rater EPR as well), got my CCAF and became a Shirt, came pretty close my 3rd time as a Shirt, 5th time over all, and on my 6th time stepping back to my old careerfield made it by 65 points. I will admit I had to bust my ass, but it is all stuff that I really enjoyed and I grew as a person and a leader. Also, I can honestly say that yes I wanted to get promoted, but all the steps I took was to benefit others.
I didn't step on anyone, as a matter of fact I helped others become better leaders, including 2 of them much younger than me that made Senior this cycle as well. That was very rewarding in it self.

Hey 6 is the charm for some of us.

riffmast
03-10-2013, 05:56 AM
HAHA, well really it was my 3rd time as my first 2- 3 times I self eliminated. 97% never see it anyways, so making it is all that really matters.

FLAPS
03-10-2013, 10:55 AM
Did you get up this morning and say, "Today I'm going to talk a bunch of sh!t about the CCAF even though doing that has gotten my arse ARC LIGHTed more often than the VIET CONG?? (that's Vietnamese Communist Guerillas, not for Bob in this case, and ARC LIGHT missions were flown in Vietnam, they were 3-ships of B-52Ds dropping enough bombs to knock you down if you were a kilometer away)

I got "my arse ARC LIGHTed" because people jumped to the conclusion that "officer doesn't like CCAF = officer hates/disrespects/looks down on enlisted." Whatever...

BOSS302
03-10-2013, 11:12 AM
Having completed a CCAF degree prior to my four year break in service, I can tell you it's worth about as much as the paper the degree is printed on. I always found it embarrassing to have to explain to employers that it's not a "real" college, just an institution that grants you a so-called, make believe "degree" for only completing a combination of mandatory training courses, DANTES and CLEP tests. What a fricken joke!

With that said, a "real" college degree can go a long way, and if the AF really wants to take education seriously then it should shut down CCAF and require for an E-8 SRE a career-relevant (e.g., business, communications, finance, etc) associates degree from an accredited civilian institution.




Interesting you turn this into an "officer" issue. I formed my opinion of CCAF long before I considered re-entering the AF as an officer. Again, just my opinion... Also, there's a huge difference between an "accredited" institution and a respected, accredited institution. Not only did I realize this when applying for jobs after my enlistment, but the reality really hit home when I applied to a four-year university, only to find out that my CCAF "degree" was worth one correspondance class, plus Phys Ed credit for basic training.

. .

KellyinAvon
03-10-2013, 11:20 AM
HAHA, well really it was my 3rd time as my first 2- 3 times I self eliminated. 97% never see it anyways, so making it is all that really matters.

Since you posted "Kelly, this was my 6th time testing" in post #81 confusion is the correct reaction:biggrin

SMSgt is a bear of a stripe to make. Not a cute little bear either. Senior is an angry Grizzly Bear who got woke up a week early from hibernation by some idiot who didn't have the good sense to turn off his cell phone when taking pictures of hibernating bears.

With that said, those of you who haven't acheived required TIG (time in grade, Bob) as a MSgt to test: don't worry, it's a bear for everyone, the bear was just more angry for some us.

KellyinAvon
03-10-2013, 11:27 AM
. .

Welcome to the forum stranger. Interesting avatar (pun intended).

BOSS302
03-10-2013, 11:48 AM
Welcome to the forum stranger. Interesting avatar (pun intended).

Thanks; I've been around before. Between the surge in "Tak Action" and Pick Your Battles' consistent display of his chromosome deficiencies, I could not stay away.

riffmast
04-05-2013, 03:10 AM
Boss, is that your Stang? I picked up a 2013 GT with the track package late last year.....love it!

Drackore
04-05-2013, 12:33 PM
Heh, a year old post but grats to Riffmast for making SMSgt. Please do me one favor and stick up for your people. I reply to this because, as shit would have it, I got an LOR today for not doing the impossible with nothing. Out of the blue, bam...no forewarning, no counselling, no feedback.


Fine, call me institutionalized. I love being in the AF. I like getting promoted. I like taking care of people and helping them grow. I *REALLY* like fighting my bosses (behind closed doors) when some BS is about to roll down that negatively affects my people and every other "yes man" lacks the balls to stand up for what's right.

In that regard, now that I am a MSgt, I really have no desire to preside over the Top 3 Fundraising Brigade or pursue a Master's Degree just to get considered for promotion. Do I want to make Chief? Absolutely. We are lacking REAL Chiefs these days, in fact we are lacking in real SNCOs for that matter (ones that don't JUST command/demand respect but also earn it!). If I can't get SMSgt or Chief based on test and board scores...oh well. I ain't crying. I just ain't going to jump through rediculous hoops to get SRE. I know that, when I retire, I can look back and say "I did just fine by myself and others".

imported_SergeantJack
04-05-2013, 02:38 PM
If the LOR was truly unjust, then do what I do: frame it, and hang it on your wall. That way, everybody who asks you about it knows what a douchehammer the person who issued it was.

imported_DannyJ
04-05-2013, 03:16 PM
Heh, a year old post but grats to Riffmast for making SMSgt. Please do me one favor and stick up for your people. I reply to this because, as shit would have it, I got an LOR today for not doing the impossible with nothing. Out of the blue, bam...no forewarning, no counselling, no feedback.

I'd take that sumbitch right over to the ADC.

Measure Man
04-05-2013, 05:01 PM
The reasoning is that the CCAF is directly related to your career field (questionable) while a higher degree is not. This means that, in their eyes, if you get your CCAF you are trying to better yourself in relationship to your career while if you get the higher degree which, in most cases, doesn't relate specifically to one's career field, you are doing it for personal reasons. The justification is that they'd rather have somebody earn a CCAF because that shows dedication to the Air Force, not to yourself.

Sort of nice, but not the real truth.

The real truth...the AF pushes the CCAF in order to protect the CCAF as a benefit. "Use it or lose it"

BUT...people will shout that it's a waste of time, not a benefit, useless, etc....but I disagree.

CCAF is the ONLY vehicle that can convert your AF Technical Schools into college credit. The Tech Schools actually have to maintain an accreditation to do that...this is why to be a tech school instructor you have to either have a CCAF or get one within a year of being assigned, etc.

Without the CCAF, people would be bitching about havnig to take basic electronics classes in their local community college to get college credit when they already graduated from an AF tech school and have 10 years experience.

Without the CCAF, cops would have to take basic criminology classes at their local community college when they've already been working as cops for years.

Without the CCAF, your PME wouldn't count as management credit, BMT would not count as PE credit, etc...all of these things would have to be taken (again) at an accredited college if you wanted to get a degree.

Without CCAF, you would see far less enlisted personnel with bachelor's degrees...as most of them used that CCAF-converted credit to knock out their first 2 years of credits toward their bachelor's.

JD2780
04-05-2013, 06:42 PM
Sort of nice, but not the real truth.

The real truth...the AF pushes the CCAF in order to protect the CCAF as a benefit. "Use it or lose it"

BUT...people will shout that it's a waste of time, not a benefit, useless, etc....but I disagree.

CCAF is the ONLY vehicle that can convert your AF Technical Schools into college credit. The Tech Schools actually have to maintain an accreditation to do that...this is why to be a tech school instructor you have to either have a CCAF or get one within a year of being assigned, etc.

Without the CCAF, people would be bitching about havnig to take basic electronics classes in their local community college to get college credit when they already graduated from an AF tech school and have 10 years experience.

Without the CCAF, cops would have to take basic criminology classes at their local community college when they've already been working as cops for years.

Without the CCAF, your PME wouldn't count as management credit, BMT would not count as PE credit, etc...all of these things would have to be taken (again) at an accredited college if you wanted to get a degree.

Without CCAF, you would see far less enlisted personnel with bachelor's degrees...as most of them used that CCAF-converted credit to knock out their first 2 years of credits toward their bachelor's.

No without the CCAF cops would be operating as cops.

sandsjames
04-05-2013, 06:44 PM
Sort of nice, but not the real truth.

The real truth...the AF pushes the CCAF in order to protect the CCAF as a benefit. "Use it or lose it"

BUT...people will shout that it's a waste of time, not a benefit, useless, etc....but I disagree.

CCAF is the ONLY vehicle that can convert your AF Technical Schools into college credit. The Tech Schools actually have to maintain an accreditation to do that...this is why to be a tech school instructor you have to either have a CCAF or get one within a year of being assigned, etc.

Without the CCAF, people would be bitching about havnig to take basic electronics classes in their local community college to get college credit when they already graduated from an AF tech school and have 10 years experience.

Without the CCAF, cops would have to take basic criminology classes at their local community college when they've already been working as cops for years.

Without the CCAF, your PME wouldn't count as management credit, BMT would not count as PE credit, etc...all of these things would have to be taken (again) at an accredited college if you wanted to get a degree.

Without CCAF, you would see far less enlisted personnel with bachelor's degrees...as most of them used that CCAF-converted credit to knock out their first 2 years of credits toward their bachelor's.

Very true. I should have stated that the explanation I gave is the excuse passed down to people at my level when someone is explaining the importance of the CCAF over a 4 year degree.

JD2780
04-05-2013, 07:04 PM
I'd take that sumbitch right over to the ADC.

Not a bad suggestion.

JD2780
04-05-2013, 07:06 PM
Sort of nice, but not the real truth.

The real truth...the AF pushes the CCAF in order to protect the CCAF as a benefit. "Use it or lose it"

BUT...people will shout that it's a waste of time, not a benefit, useless, etc....but I disagree.

CCAF is the ONLY vehicle that can convert your AF Technical Schools into college credit. The Tech Schools actually have to maintain an accreditation to do that...this is why to be a tech school instructor you have to either have a CCAF or get one within a year of being assigned, etc.

Without the CCAF, people would be bitching about havnig to take basic electronics classes in their local community college to get college credit when they already graduated from an AF tech school and have 10 years experience.

Without the CCAF, cops would have to take basic criminology classes at their local community college when they've already been working as cops for years.

Without the CCAF, your PME wouldn't count as management credit, BMT would not count as PE credit, etc...all of these things would have to be taken (again) at an accredited college if you wanted to get a degree.

Without CCAF, you would see far less enlisted personnel with bachelor's degrees...as most of them used that CCAF-converted credit to knock out their first 2 years of credits toward their bachelor's.

No without the CCAF cops would be operating as cops.

Measure Man
04-05-2013, 08:00 PM
No without the CCAF cops would be operating as cops.

Yes...however, you missed the point. If they wanted to get a degree, they would have to re-take all the basics in a college accredited class.

Chief_KO
04-06-2013, 01:27 AM
Sort of nice, but not the real truth.

The real truth...the AF pushes the CCAF in order to protect the CCAF as a benefit. "Use it or lose it"

BUT...people will shout that it's a waste of time, not a benefit, useless, etc....but I disagree.

CCAF is the ONLY vehicle that can convert your AF Technical Schools into college credit. The Tech Schools actually have to maintain an accreditation to do that...this is why to be a tech school instructor you have to either have a CCAF or get one within a year of being assigned, etc.

Without the CCAF, people would be bitching about havnig to take basic electronics classes in their local community college to get college credit when they already graduated from an AF tech school and have 10 years experience.

Without the CCAF, cops would have to take basic criminology classes at their local community college when they've already been working as cops for years.

Without the CCAF, your PME wouldn't count as management credit, BMT would not count as PE credit, etc...all of these things would have to be taken (again) at an accredited college if you wanted to get a degree.

Without CCAF, you would see far less enlisted personnel with bachelor's degrees...as most of them used that CCAF-converted credit to knock out their first 2 years of credits toward their bachelor's.

Great points...all the reasons stated by the other services as they are lobbying to create a Community College of the Military to replace CCAF and provide the above clearly stated benefits to all service members

CrustySMSgt
04-06-2013, 11:20 AM
Sort of nice, but not the real truth.

The real truth...the AF pushes the CCAF in order to protect the CCAF as a benefit. "Use it or lose it"

BUT...people will shout that it's a waste of time, not a benefit, useless, etc....but I disagree.

CCAF is the ONLY vehicle that can convert your AF Technical Schools into college credit. The Tech Schools actually have to maintain an accreditation to do that...this is why to be a tech school instructor you have to either have a CCAF or get one within a year of being assigned, etc.

Without the CCAF, people would be bitching about havnig to take basic electronics classes in their local community college to get college credit when they already graduated from an AF tech school and have 10 years experience.

Without the CCAF, cops would have to take basic criminology classes at their local community college when they've already been working as cops for years.

Without the CCAF, your PME wouldn't count as management credit, BMT would not count as PE credit, etc...all of these things would have to be taken (again) at an accredited college if you wanted to get a degree.

Without CCAF, you would see far less enlisted personnel with bachelor's degrees...as most of them used that CCAF-converted credit to knock out their first 2 years of credits toward their bachelor's.

Way to live up to your signature block! :usa2