PDA

View Full Version : If government shuts down, so would troop pay



Pages : [1] 2 3

goody722
03-11-2011, 10:49 PM
...if we don't get paid 1 April?

RetSNCO
03-11-2011, 11:11 PM
I was in during the mid-90s shutdown. I remember initially there was talk of us not getting paid, but eventually that went away. I remember working when most of the civilians were not, but it didn't last long enough to effect anybody's pay. In fact, the civilians sent on furlough were given back pay for doing nothing (staying home). I guess that is kind of what they usually do anyway.

bb stacker
03-11-2011, 11:14 PM
i'll do like the wisconsin union protesters and take a dump in the squadron building

imported_KnuckleDragger
03-11-2011, 11:36 PM
First...we will get paid. Period. End of discussion.

If I didn't get paid, and didn't forsee any pay in the near future...I would go AWOL to Canada, and start life version 2.

Uncle-Sugar
03-12-2011, 01:07 AM
I don't think that it will come to that. If it does...there will be a whole lot of pissed of bubba' for sure.

VFFSSGT
03-12-2011, 02:40 AM
When the government was shut down in 1995, military personnel continued to report to work and were paid, but the planning guidance sent to the services and defense agencies says a shutdown this time will be different.

...

“Military personnel will serve without pay until such time as Congress makes appropriated funds available to compensate them for this period of service.”


What planning guidance and who sends out such guidance?!

WTF?! Is this AFT with its usual hyperbole or what?! I thought there was something on the books that the military continued to be paid even through a "shut-down."

We have a hard enough time getting reimbursed money and pay straighten out from TDY's, PCS's, and deployments... Coming to work for nothing?! Don't know about that one.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/03/military-contingency-plan-government-shutdown-031111w/?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4d7aa83c2281d688%2C0

EOMFD/GFYM8
03-12-2011, 03:23 AM
Yes, V. Sounds like a scare-tactic article to me.

Tooltime
03-12-2011, 03:39 AM
I was also in during the mid-90's whent the shut down happened. There were rumors of not getting paid, but it didn't happen. For some reason, we couldn't go fishing on the Federal Lakes though? Not sure how much money that saved...

EOMFD/GFYM8
03-12-2011, 03:43 AM
I wouldn't put it past them to not pay us just to try and prove a point to one another. They still get their checks of course. I'll be making my point by not defuzing bombs for free.

BigBaze
03-12-2011, 06:03 AM
Would there be a "come to work for nothing" CBT?

SailorDave
03-12-2011, 06:18 AM
Government civilians in non-essential jobs would be sent home, but active duty are exempt from cessation, as are most emergency and federal law enforcement.

El Jefe
03-12-2011, 01:20 PM
We got paid in the 90's, but we weren't anywhere near the nuclear level of broke we are now.

Will be interesting to see who's got bigger balls. Those peach fuzz, knit hat, banging on drums hippies up in Wisconsin, or peeps in the mil. You going to get bent over and stuffed for free now?

imported_MSGDay
03-12-2011, 02:44 PM
As someone pointed out, this is just another Democrat scare tactic.
Every single bill I've read introduced by Republican Congressman clearly stated that military and other "essential personnel" would continue to work and be paid.
As In Wisconsin, the liberals are desperate to overcome the will of the majority.

Uncle-Sugar
03-12-2011, 02:56 PM
This happened back in the early 90's. We (the military) still got paid...no worries people. LV is right, just another scare tactic by the Dem's.

EOMFD/GFYM8
03-12-2011, 04:04 PM
They are all to blame. They are playing chicken with other people's jobs. The Republicans and Democrats both want to be able to blame each other for a shutdown.

Wicked Zombie
03-12-2011, 05:40 PM
I don't get paid, I don't work, bottom line! Though I strongly feel it will not come to that.

Wicked Zombie
03-12-2011, 05:51 PM
Though I am sure it won't happen, but IF it does, I don't work for free!

VFFSSGT
03-12-2011, 06:55 PM
I don't get paid, I don't work, bottom line! Though I strongly feel it will not come to that.

I've always wondered what that outcome would be...brought the topic up way back when. But it wasn't based on a 'shut down'...it was based on a collapse.

I do believe it would be disastrous for sure though.

Wicked Zombie
03-12-2011, 07:12 PM
I understand I signed a contract, and I love this country. But when my government doesn't live up to their side of the contract, I am supposed to still keep working, and ignore the bills I have. Forget that stuff, its 2011, times have changed, the military wants to think just because you signed a dotted line, you gave all your beliefs, morals and idealogy away. I say BS, its time as servicemen and women we put are foot down. We are not a resource to take for granted, if the people of the military are as important as are higher ups say, they should be calling BS too, Big Government has gotten away with this too long and needs to stop. The Dems and Rep needs to stop there child like bickering and run the this country instead of ruining, yeah its both parties fault, not just one.

VFFSSGT
03-12-2011, 07:16 PM
I understand I signed a contract, and I love this country. But when my government doesn't live up to their side of the contract, I am supposed to still keep working, and ignore the bills I have. Forget that stuff, its 2011, times have changed, the military wants to think just because you signed a dotted line, you gave all your beliefs, morals and idealogy away. I say BS, its time as servicemen and women we put are foot down. We are not a resource to take for granted, if the people of the military are as important as are higher ups say, they should be calling BS too, Big Government has gotten away with this too long and needs to stop. The Dems and Rep needs to stop there child like bickering and run the this country instead of ruining, yeah its both parties fault, not just one.

That's for sure...

If we only had a union like those in WI...we wouldn't have such problems. /end sarcasm

El Jefe
03-12-2011, 09:46 PM
Actually, the bickering, infighting and non-bipartisanship is BETTER for the country, and average Joe. You want these tards, with the power they have, streamlined and efficient? Why do you think we have 3 branches of government?

Not me.

Forsaken Wombat
03-12-2011, 10:00 PM
Actually, the bickering, infighting and non-bipartisanship is BETTER for the country, and average Joe. You want these tards, with the power they have, streamlined and efficient? Why do you think we have 3 branches of government?

Not me.

The Judicial, Executive, and Legislative Branches are not bickering and fighting with each other. Nor is anyone saying that honest debate and challenges conducted in the course of obtaining a common, good goal for the People is bad.

It's the bickering and fighting amongst political ideologues with their own self-interests (and Party's interests) at heart while using "the People" as a scapegoat for their "Banana Republic Behavior" that is disgusting.

Public office has gone from being an office that serves the People to merely a profession.

El Jefe
03-12-2011, 10:07 PM
People schmeple... I want to see pistols at dawn. Down and dirty, Taiwanese throwdowns.

Ruckus
03-12-2011, 10:11 PM
my assumption is that they'd start threating people with UCMJ action to keep the heathens in line. It sure would suck hard to be stuck in Iraq or Afghanistan, doing dangerous things to get the mission done, and not even get paid for it.

I'm OCONUS, with no passport, so I can't just take my ball and go home. I should probably get the passport anyway, just in case.

Forsaken Wombat
03-12-2011, 10:15 PM
People schmeple... I want to see pistols at dawn. Down and dirty, Taiwanese throwdowns.

http://gunsofold.com/images/Hamilton-burr-duel.jpg

JD2780
03-12-2011, 10:45 PM
You can still not show up to work. Its simple.

VFFSSGT
03-12-2011, 10:52 PM
my assumption is that they'd start threating people with UCMJ action to keep the heathens in line. It sure would suck hard to be stuck in Iraq or Afghanistan, doing dangerous things to get the mission done, and not even get paid for it.

I'm OCONUS, with no passport, so I can't just take my ball and go home. I should probably get the passport anyway, just in case.

I would rather be over there in a situation like this, because I know I will still have a place to go sleep, still have some type of meal 3 times a day, etc.

Being at home station, I have rent, bills, etc. just like everyone else. Cannot afford to not be paid. There is not enough base housing, especially with those with privatized housing (IME they always decrease the number of houses), to bring everyone on base and the chow halls are not big enough to support the entire population of the base.

And if they did threaten UCMJ? What are they going to do? Kick everyone out?! Yeah, that wouldn't work. Send everyone to jail? Jails are already overcrowded...and either way, at least you would have a bed and 3 meals while you fight this nonsense in court.

EOMFD/GFYM8
03-12-2011, 10:52 PM
Is working for no pay a lawful order? Serious question.

technomage1
03-12-2011, 11:05 PM
Is working for no pay a lawful order? Serious question.

Yes.

You will get paid back eventually even in the unlikely event the budget doesn't get passed. It's no different than finance messing up your pay (though I know that never happens).

technomage1
03-12-2011, 11:08 PM
You can still not show up to work. Its simple.

Are you familiar with the term "AWOL"?

Yes, you can not show up to work. You will then be charged with violating Article 86 of the UCMJ.

“Any member of the armed forces who, without authority—

(1) fails to go to his appointed place of duty at the time prescribed;

(2) goes from that place; or

(3) absents himself or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty at which he is required to be at the time prescribed; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

Please note there are no exceptions in the text. I want to get paid too, and I fully realize how much it will stink if we don't. But this type of talk doesn't help. We're in the military. We can't strike or walk out on the job. It's that simple.

El Jefe
03-12-2011, 11:16 PM
It's simple, flood sick call.

Back when this was possible in the 90's, our BAS Corpsmen agreed to pass out light/no duty chits like candy in the event of a no pay situation.

AF Comm Guy
03-12-2011, 11:26 PM
Are you familiar with the term "AWOL"?

Yes, you can not show up to work. You will then be charged with violating Article 86 of the UCMJ.

“Any member of the armed forces who, without authority—

(1) fails to go to his appointed place of duty at the time prescribed;

(2) goes from that place; or

(3) absents himself or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty at which he is required to be at the time prescribed; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

Please note there are no exceptions in the text. I want to get paid too, and I fully realize how much it will stink if we don't. But this type of talk doesn't help. We're in the military. We can't strike or walk out on the job. It's that simple.

Don't you have to be declared UA for thirty days before they can move you to the AWOL status? Just wondering.

technomage1
03-12-2011, 11:33 PM
Don't you have to be declared UA for thirty days before they can move you to the AWOL status? Just wondering.

At that point you move from AWOL status to deserter status (Article 85). Which is worse.

technomage1
03-12-2011, 11:36 PM
It's simple, flood sick call.

Back when this was possible in the 90's, our BAS Corpsmen agreed to pass out light/no duty chits like candy in the event of a no pay situation.

There is no more sick call. Supervisors are only allowed to give out 24 hour passes in the event of illness, otherwise you need the doc's signature.

Bottom line is we still have to report to work no matter what. This is one of the many reasons people should have emergency funds saved.

VFFSSGT
03-12-2011, 11:44 PM
There is no more sick call. Supervisors are only allowed to give out 24 hour passes in the event of illness, otherwise you need the doc's signature.

Bottom line is we still have to report to work no matter what. This is one of the many reasons people should have emergency funds saved.

I know of at least one base that still has a sick call.

And not all supervisors will give you 24 hours with quarters, whether due to ignorance of the rule or their old school ways is a matter of debate.

AFI 41-210

3.6.4. Unit commanders and supervisors have the authority to grant up to 24 hours sick status at their discretion if a members illness/injury does not require MTF intervention. If the illness/injury persists beyond 24 hours, then the commander or supervisor must refer the member to the MTF for treatment and subsequent quarters authorization.

Your_Name_Here
03-12-2011, 11:45 PM
Don't you have to be declared UA for thirty days before they can move you to the AWOL status? Just wondering.

Close. Personnel AWOL for 30 days, (sooner if there is evidence to support) are administratively reclassified as deserters. Also at that point, the member is "dropped from the rolls," meaning that the unit can proceed to get a backfill/replacement, pay and allowances are stopped, and individual info is put out there for civilian Law Enforcement, i.e. the deserter becomes "wanted" and subject to getting apprehended.

Fun stuff.

Ruckus
03-12-2011, 11:53 PM
I know of at least one base that still has a sick call.

I know some bases call it different things, like Fast Track (oh sweet irony), but I think most (if not all) bases have some form of sick call.

The Cooler
03-13-2011, 12:24 AM
I would shut up and color without money for about a month until I got really pissed off. This is all bearing in mind that I have enough emergency money to not be paid for a while and not miss a beat. However, the principle of the matter is that I don't call in sick EVER, and at a moments notice I will go wherever the hell I am needed in support of this country at the expense of what it will do to my family. while I didn't get into this for the money.. if politicians who I view in very low regard are still paying themselves, they damn well better be paying me.

ROAD
03-13-2011, 12:50 AM
Do the civiian PT Testers still get paid?

I dont see this happening, but if It did...i might live off a credit card for a month, but seriously, i gots kids to feed....sorry Boss, wont be coming in today, I got to go to my paying job.

If you can get charged with failure to provide for your family, you can get charged with child abuse/neglect for not feeding them, i'd say a jury would find anyone who quit going to work who wasnt getting paid...and got a PAYING job to support the family..INNOCENT

AF Comm Guy
03-13-2011, 01:24 AM
Close. Personnel AWOL for 30 days, (sooner if there is evidence to support) are administratively reclassified as deserters. Also at that point, the member is "dropped from the rolls," meaning that the unit can proceed to get a backfill/replacement, pay and allowances are stopped, and individual info is put out there for civilian Law Enforcement, i.e. the deserter becomes "wanted" and subject to getting apprehended.

Fun stuff.

Ah, that's what it was. I knew there was something in there about 30 days. Damn, I probably missed that one on my promotion test.

imported_KnuckleDragger
03-13-2011, 01:50 AM
What will you all do if you are deployed overseas when the checks stop coming in?

technomage1
03-13-2011, 02:02 AM
Do the civiian PT Testers still get paid?

I dont see this happening, but if It did...i might live off a credit card for a month, but seriously, i gots kids to feed....sorry Boss, wont be coming in today, I got to go to my paying job.

If you can get charged with failure to provide for your family, you can get charged with child abuse/neglect for not feeding them, i'd say a jury would find anyone who quit going to work who wasnt getting paid...and got a PAYING job to support the family..INNOCENT

Provided you got a civilian jury, maybe. But in the case of AWOL/desertion you'd be tried in the military justice system. Again, what happened to the 6 month emergency fund that you're encouraged to have? And your spouse, I suppose her arms/legs are broken and she can't work at all?

BTW, the military wouldn't let your kids or family starve. They'd give you an AF aid society loan or open up the DFAC for them, like they do in disaster situations (right now at Misawa, for example, they have the DFAC open and are issuing MRE's to family members).

Bottom line is, if this thing happens, which it likely will not, show up to work. Don't be a fool and make the situation worse by violating the UCMJ. And make no bones about it, there are no loopholes to those articles. If you, by choice, don't show up to work you have violated the UCMJ - no matter what the other circumstances. I've seen it in the past - Amn Knucklehead's pay gets messed up, so he decides not to show up to work until he gets paid. Then he gets a nice, fat paycheck - and an Article 15 or a courts martial as an added bonus.

JD2780
03-13-2011, 02:24 AM
Are you familiar with the term "AWOL"?

Yes, you can not show up to work. You will then be charged with violating Article 86 of the UCMJ.

“Any member of the armed forces who, without authority—

(1) fails to go to his appointed place of duty at the time prescribed;

(2) goes from that place; or

(3) absents himself or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty at which he is required to be at the time prescribed; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

Please note there are no exceptions in the text. I want to get paid too, and I fully realize how much it will stink if we don't. But this type of talk doesn't help. We're in the military. We can't strike or walk out on the job. It's that simple.

Yes I'm familiar with it. I didnt say you wouldnt get into trouble. Life is about making decisions and living with them. I for one will not report to work if I'm not paid on April 1 regardless of what UCMJ action they threaten at me. Even if I do show at work, good luck getting my ass out of my seat. Yell swear, scream all you want. No matter what rank you are, you will not get me out. Now I will stand at parade rest or attention while being dressed down. Thats about it though.

JD2780
03-13-2011, 02:27 AM
There is no more sick call. Supervisors are only allowed to give out 24 hour passes in the event of illness, otherwise you need the doc's signature.

Bottom line is we still have to report to work no matter what. This is one of the many reasons people should have emergency funds saved.

My supervisor will give me 24hrs, and while using those 24, I'll simply still go to sick call which they do still have at my duty station. Atleast thats what flight med calls it. Sick call/return to fly

JD2780
03-13-2011, 02:31 AM
Provided you got a civilian jury, maybe. But in the case of AWOL/desertion you'd be tried in the military justice system. Again, what happened to the 6 month emergency fund that you're encouraged to have? And your spouse, I suppose her arms/legs are broken and she can't work at all?

BTW, the military wouldn't let your kids or family starve. They'd give you an AF aid society loan or open up the DFAC for them, like they do in disaster situations (right now at Misawa, for example, they have the DFAC open and are issuing MRE's to family members).

Bottom line is, if this thing happens, which it likely will not, show up to work. Don't be a fool and make the situation worse by violating the UCMJ. And make no bones about it, there are no loopholes to those articles. If you, by choice, don't show up to work you have violated the UCMJ - no matter what the other circumstances. I've seen it in the past - Amn Knucklehead's pay gets messed up, so he decides not to show up to work until he gets paid. Then he gets a nice, fat paycheck - and an Article 15 or a courts martial as an added bonus.

Seriously, you love that kool aid dont you. I can tell you this no jury will convict me on this. Once the media got a hold of it I'd be fine. At worst kicked out with a general discharge. Hell look at all those deserters that are getting away with it since 2005ish. Amn knucklehead getting messed up and not showing up is a little different than not getting paid and not reporting. Night and day.

Yea give my kids MREs. This isnt an emergency. This is a bunch of people in congress playing chess with my families well being. Therefore my emergency shouldnt be getting tapped for this stupidity.

JD2780
03-13-2011, 02:34 AM
What will you all do if you are deployed overseas when the checks stop coming in?

Simple, stop working. Sit there and cruise the internet. Sure as hell wouldnt be going OTW for anything.

EOMFD/GFYM8
03-13-2011, 03:10 AM
I love how this plan kills our pay yet somehow the BX, commissary, and auto-hobby shop, etc stay open. I wonder if the clubs will stay open...not that anyone goes.

VFFSSGT
03-13-2011, 03:12 AM
Simple, stop working. Sit there and cruise the internet. Sure as hell wouldnt be going OTW for anything.

I thought that is what the majority of the AF did to begin with...


I love how this plan kills our pay yet somehow the BX, commissary, and auto-hobby shop, etc stay open. I wonder if the clubs will stay open...not that anyone goes.

What is even more interesting is, who do they expect will be buying their stuff if we aren't getting paid?

EOMFD/GFYM8
03-13-2011, 03:14 AM
And if all the NAF, GS, and contract civilians are on furlough, is there a point going in anyway? Not like you can check out a tool, draw explosives, or route an EPR without needing one of them. One word: telecommute. My Det CC will have us sitting in our undies on the old gov't laptop.

CSballer89
03-13-2011, 03:45 AM
I don't understand what is supposed to be going on... holding pay for a month and then resume pay as normal? Or hold pay until further notice...?

EOMFD/GFYM8
03-13-2011, 03:58 AM
I don't understand what is supposed to be going on... holding pay for a month and then resume pay as normal? Or hold pay until further notice...?
Basically, if the current continuing budget resolution expires on 17 Mar, certain parts of the gov't stop operating until either another continuing resolution is passed or they finally approve the FY11 budget.

CSballer89
03-13-2011, 04:01 AM
Basically, if the current continuing budget resolution expires on 17 Mar, certain parts of the gov't stop operating until either another continuing resolution is passed or they finally approve the FY11 budget.

So basically you just wait to get paid until they pass the budget?

EOMFD/GFYM8
03-13-2011, 04:03 AM
So basically you just wait to get paid until they pass the budget?
Right, or a temporary budget like they've been doing. Of course, they might decide to keep paying us. Nothing is solid.

JD2780
03-13-2011, 04:23 AM
I thought that is what the majority of the AF did to begin with...



What is even more interesting is, who do they expect will be buying their stuff if we aren't getting paid?

Well played sir!!!

technomage1
03-13-2011, 04:41 AM
Yes I'm familiar with it. I didnt say you wouldnt get into trouble. Life is about making decisions and living with them. I for one will not report to work if I'm not paid on April 1 regardless of what UCMJ action they threaten at me. Even if I do show at work, good luck getting my ass out of my seat. Yell swear, scream all you want. No matter what rank you are, you will not get me out. Now I will stand at parade rest or attention while being dressed down. Thats about it though.

You do realize that even if you show up at work and do what you describe above, that's failure to obey a lawful order (article 92) that you're proposing? Either way will get you into a bunch of hot water. Look, if you want to buck the system that's your choice. The best, I repeat best, thing that will happen to you is an article 15. You could also be discharged for it and even go to prison.

No one forced you to raise your right hand and volunteer to be in the military. But because you did, there are certain things that you have to do and certain freedoms that you don't have anymore. If you don't want to live that lifestyle, then I suggest returning to civilian life. With the drawdowns and poor economy there are plenty of people who want to stay in and follow the rules.

BadBender
03-13-2011, 04:43 AM
I have an uncle that was active duty AF the 1970's (Carter era) when the government shut down. He said the military still came to work as normal and they eventually got back paid what they were owed. He told me the commissary held the checks people wrote so they could feed their families. Hopefully it won’t come to that this time.
As for me, I’ll still come to work and do my job. Just glad I already got my tax return, I can go a few pay periods before hitting hard times.

technomage1
03-13-2011, 04:53 AM
Seriously, you love that kool aid dont you. I can tell you this no jury will convict me on this. Once the media got a hold of it I'd be fine. At worst kicked out with a general discharge. Hell look at all those deserters that are getting away with it since 2005ish. Amn knucklehead getting messed up and not showing up is a little different than not getting paid and not reporting. Night and day.

Yea give my kids MREs. This isnt an emergency. This is a bunch of people in congress playing chess with my families well being. Therefore my emergency shouldnt be getting tapped for this stupidity.

I agree that this is a stupid Congress thing and we shouldn't need to break out the MREs. But food is food, and you were the one that claimed your family would starve in a month if you didn't get paid. Now you say they're too good for MREs? Please. If you are hungry enough, an MRE is fine dining to you.

The only thing different in my example is scale. Amn Knucklehead didn't get paid for 3 months - at all - due to a horrific pay mistake at DFAS. So he decides not to show up to work. Didn't work through the chain to get help at all. So he gets an Art 15 and a bad conduct discharge because of it. On the other hand, the system messed up my pay when I moved onto the economy as an E4. I didn't get paid OHA for 6 months. I was hurting, let me tell you because in my area rent wasn't cheap. But I had a bit saved up and worked through my chain. 10 years later I'm still in the service.

If you honestly think that a military jury of your peers would let you go after such a horrific breach in discipline - when they themselves were going through the same thing - all I have to say is "good luck".

As I said to another poster, you raised your right hand. When you did, you agreed to give up certain freedoms and abide by certain rules. If you can't do that, then I suggest that this isn't the life for you.

EOMFD/GFYM8
03-13-2011, 05:00 AM
Techno, no one forces anyone to do anything. It's impossible. But the social contract we have in this country is that you do a job for monetary instruments that you can trade to other people for goods or services. If you don't pay part of the population, they become worthless and are societal outliers. That effs up the whole system. Yes, we all volunteered, but we volunteered with the understanding that we'd be compensated for our work. Otherwise it's indentured servitude or even slavery to force someone to work for no pay. Yes, the Continental Army fought Britain without pay and were back paid at the war's end, but this is a little different. Back then, they didn't get a check because a country didn't exist, or did a budget, from which to pay them. Currently, we might not get a check because a couple hundred impotent, overweight lawyers who bought their way into public office can't agree how much money each of them gets to shuffle back to their campaign contributors! FML!

VFFSSGT
03-13-2011, 05:06 AM
I have an uncle that was active duty AF the 1970's (Carter era) when the government shut down. He said the military still came to work as normal and they eventually got back paid what they were owed. He told me the commissary held the checks people wrote so they could feed their families. Hopefully it won’t come to that this time.
As for me, I’ll still come to work and do my job. Just glad I already got my tax return, I can go a few pay periods before hitting hard times.

Huh?! Could you keep it to one language please?! :)

j/k ...I still have a box a checks laying around for abnormal circumstances, but in all seriousness, I bet not too many people have checks still.

technomage1
03-13-2011, 05:29 AM
Techno, no one forces anyone to do anything. It's impossible. But the social contract we have in this country is that you do a job for monetary instruments that you can trade to other people for goods or services. If you don't pay part of the population, they become worthless and are societal outliers. That effs up the whole system. Yes, we all volunteered, but we volunteered with the understanding that we'd be compensated for our work. Otherwise it's indentured servitude or even slavery to force someone to work for no pay. Yes, the Continental Army fought Britain without pay and were back paid at the war's end, but this is a little different. Back then, they didn't get a check because a country didn't exist, or did a budget, from which to pay them. Currently, we might not get a check because a couple hundred impotent, overweight lawyers who bought their way into public office can't agree how much money each of them gets to shuffle back to their campaign contributors! FML!

I agree the reason is stupid and I'm as annoyed at Congress as anyone. But the fact of the matter is, even if the budget is delayed - we will get back pay. That's not forcing someone to work for no pay, that's a delay of pay. I don't think it will occur, and it certainly won't occur for the length of period of time the continental army didn't get paid.

All I'm saying is, not showing up to work (or showing up and not working) isn't the right way to deal with it even if it does happen (unless you want a discharge or prison time).

bcoco14
03-13-2011, 05:57 AM
I agree the reason is stupid and I'm as annoyed at Congress as anyone. But the fact of the matter is, even if the budget is delayed - we will get back pay. That's not forcing someone to work for no pay, that's a delay of pay. I don't think it will occur, and it certainly won't occur for the length of period of time the continental army didn't get paid.

All I'm saying is, not showing up to work (or showing up and not working) isn't the right way to deal with it even if it does happen (unless you want a discharge or prison time).

I see what your trying to get at but how long is acceptable to you? 1 month ,6,12 what about 18? I don't think it would ever get to that point but still.

My wife worked at a bank servicing mainly military personnel for a while and you would be amazed on how many people live paycheck to paycheck O's and E's alike.

Personally, I have a 3 month emergency fund but most people don't. If you have a pay stoppage than where are those others supposed to get the money to pay their bills? It's a double edged sword. One that will likely be sympathized with if anyone was brought to a court marshal because those sitting on the jury may have found themselves in the same boat.

It wont happen though, the congress would be committing political suicide not paying the troops just to make a point.

Shrike
03-13-2011, 06:35 AM
http://gunsofold.com/images/Hamilton-burr-duel.jpg

AAwin Buwwwwwrrrr!

Shrike
03-13-2011, 06:53 AM
There's a rather tall and wide major that works down the hall from me. If we don't get paid, I figure I can trap her, hollow her out, and my wife, dog and I can live in her and feed off of her entrails for a while.

I suppose I could just as easily dip in to our emergency funds, but what the hell, might as well just make the jump to barbarianism and cannibalism. Dibs on the liver!

SailorDave
03-13-2011, 07:49 AM
Wabbit season !!

VFFSSGT
03-13-2011, 07:51 AM
There's a rather tall and wide major that works down the hall from me. If we don't get paid, I figure I can trap her, hollow her out, and my wife, dog and I can live in her and feed off of her entrails for a while.

I suppose I could just as easily dip in to our emergency funds, but what the hell, might as well just make the jump to barbarianism and cannibalism. Dibs on the liver!

That's just...nasty.

ROAD
03-13-2011, 08:13 AM
if the govt is "shut down", then what about PT Tests? Will the Civilian testers still be able to work? How will the AF survive without knowing if we meet PT standards or not? I can't be expected to trust some guy fixing a plane if I dont know whether or not he can run a 1.5 miles in 12 minutes or less.

ROAD
03-13-2011, 08:16 AM
how is them not paying us NOT a breach of contract, thus rendering our agreement to serve null and void. Oh i get it, enlisting is just like a Cell Phone contract, you are held liable for any and all changes to said contract and can't do shit about it wthout getting a heavy fine.

VFFSSGT
03-13-2011, 08:32 AM
if the govt is "shut down", then what about PT Tests? Will the Civilian testers still be able to work? How will the AF survive without knowing if we meet PT standards or not? I can't be expected to trust some guy fixing a plane if I dont know whether or not he can run a 1.5 miles in 12 minutes or less.

Not sure that anything would function, much less PT tests.

Most of our Information Systems require constant funding plus are maintained by civilians. So, there goes AFKN (early), AF Portal, vMPF, DTS, etc.

Then many base networks are managed and maintained by civilians these days. Those probably would stop working.

And about at that point it would be pointless for us to even show up, because nothing functions today in the AF without internet and email.

Government contracts would start dropping like flies. Crap, who is going to take out the trash now?! Not sure we can do it anymore without 797 tasks, a JSA, and additional brief in the JSTO to be complemented by a 53 slide brief. And we won't be able to generate them because TBA won't be working along with the network.

People's stuff would get lost while in transit for a PCS...mover's keep the goods since they not getting paid. Funny? Think not...many Doctors have stopped taking Medicare/Medicaid over the last couple years because they were not getting paid.

The chaos would become quite humorous...well for a short period.

Greece, much?!

Shrike
03-13-2011, 08:33 AM
That's just...nasty.

You, sir, are not getting any of her bowel.

;)

VFFSSGT
03-13-2011, 08:36 AM
You, sir, are not getting any of her bowel.

;)

:doh I was really looking forward to that.

BigT2002
03-13-2011, 10:39 AM
Nothing like being sent home and then getting back paid ftw

EOMFD/GFYM8
03-13-2011, 12:14 PM
There's a rather tall and wide major that works down the hall from me. If we don't get paid, I figure I can trap her, hollow her out, and my wife, dog and I can live in her and feed off of her entrails for a while.

I suppose I could just as easily dip in to our emergency funds, but what the hell, might as well just make the jump to barbarianism and cannibalism. Dibs on the liver!

HA! Classic!

El Jefe
03-13-2011, 12:44 PM
Technomage is right in that if you can't work the system (and there are plenty of ways to play the system if you are smart) then suck it up. However, use this as a lesson and get the fuck out the next chance you have.

I for one wouldn't sacrifice anything for people who can't even pay me on time. Especially not when I have responsibilities to a family. And don't buy the bullshit that the military is some safe harbor in this economic downturn. If you have decent skills and experience, there's always work. You might have to cut back on that wide screen tv or the car payment you have (ridiculous amount of new/expensive cars on base these days.) but you won't starve, you'll actually get paid on time and you won't be torn away from your family for months at a time.

Techo's advice about savings is also sage, but totally besides the point in this discussion.

Don't give the jackasses any excuse to slap any charges on you. GTFO very next chance you have.

jond1993
03-13-2011, 12:52 PM
In 1995 Congress passed a special resolution that allowed the military to continue getting paid when the rest of the government shut down. Unless that do that again pay would technically stop. Whenever the budget or new pay resolution is passed everyone would be back paid for any pay that may have missed if the impasse continues that long. You will get paid just not necessarily on our normal paydays.

jond1993
03-13-2011, 12:53 PM
how is them not paying us NOT a breach of contract, thus rendering our agreement to serve null and void. Oh i get it, enlisting is just like a Cell Phone contract, you are held liable for any and all changes to said contract and can't do shit about it wthout getting a heavy fine.

We would get paid, just not on our regularly scheduled paydays if the shutdown lasts that long. A lot of this is just scare tactics by both parties.

imported_MSGDay
03-13-2011, 02:55 PM
I don't blame your anger at Congress. It frustrates millions upon millions of us. That's why so many old timers were swept out of office to be replaced by people who understand WE CAN'T SPEND MONEY WE DON'T HAVE.

The problem lies with politicians who owe their allegiances to special interest and not their constituents.
Yeah, it's painful. The newbies are fighting a system designed to keep one in office and it isn't an easy thing to do. From the bills they've introduced, it's clear to me that they know what it's going to take to set things back on the right path.
It's the old entrenched politicians who are fighting back - regardless of party.

While the Hatch Act forbids those in uniform from taking part in partisan politics, it does not stop you from contacting your representatives and giving them your support or expressing your displeasure. And, it doesn't stop you from urging others to do the same!!!!!!!

Eugene is located in western Oregon, approximately 278 billion miles from anything.
Dave Barry

FLAPS
03-13-2011, 03:01 PM
The problem lies with politicians who owe their allegiances to special interest and not their constituents.
[/I]

Actually, their constituents are the ones who will vote for or against them...which is why you see so many pork-barrel projects. If I create or at least protect the jobs for my voter base, then I'll get re-elected. If I fight to protect unsustainable entitlements for those who count on them as their lifeline, then I can probably count on their votes. Perhaps if we had term limits in Congress, then maybe our elected officials would vote for what's right for our country instead of what will make them popular with the voters?

JD2780
03-13-2011, 03:30 PM
I can promise you that even if I didnt show up i'd get an art15 at most a 30 days 12 hr days and a 3 or 4 epr. My careerfield cant afford to be giving people the boot when more are getting out every month than are coming in. We'll see what happens on apr 1. I'd be informing my chain of command that I wouldnt be coming in if I werent paid. I've got my emergency fund to gove expenses until I get paid yes. They will be used until I can find a temp job that will actually pay me.

candycane3482
03-13-2011, 03:53 PM
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/03/military-contingency-plan-government-shutdown-031111w/

I have a feeling that they will pass another extension but seriously Congress? The military is still running off last fiscal year budget and in 6 months it will be a new fiscal year. Why not take some of the pay from Congress - they aren't doing anything anyway.

Yeah we would get backpay but everyone knows how slow the military is about giving back money they owe but how fast they are to take it away. And if they had to issue back pay to the entire military...we know how long that would take.
This is why people need to make sure they save money when they can I suppose.

kenny10
03-13-2011, 03:58 PM
I agree and what about LCpl so and so, whose got a wife and a kid, deployed out patrollng the villages of Afghanistan, living paycheck to paycheck and all the sudden his money stops coming in because congress can't get their crap together. Its so ridiculous it makes me sick. Someone should take their pay, and it would have to be the president cause we all know that congress would do whatever they had to do to get the budget settled if it had to do with their pay

blackbeard79
03-13-2011, 04:13 PM
Can we get some references on this one, NavyTimes? It looks like you just cut and pasted this story form ArmyTimes, AirForceTimes, and the like, which makes me question if you verified its content.

That being said, the Pentagon hasn't come out with its usual vaguely worded denial yet, so there may be some truth to this.

If I don't get paid, I won't exactly march on Washington in some sort of coup d'etat, but I wouldn't exactly be motivated to stop one either.

Uncle-Sugar
03-13-2011, 04:21 PM
Reality is this, you don't show up for work and they are going to break it off in your @$$. I know it sucks having to work for free but Big Daddy Air Force is going to make an example out of anyone who chooses to buck the system. I would not recomend being that guy/gal...just saying.

Uncle-Sugar
03-13-2011, 04:23 PM
You nailed it!

eddieg325
03-13-2011, 09:05 PM
Can we get some references on this one, NavyTimes? It looks like you just cut and pasted this story form ArmyTimes, AirForceTimes, and the like, which makes me question if you verified its content.

That being said, the Pentagon hasn't come out with its usual vaguely worded denial yet, so there may be some truth to this.

If I don't get paid, I won't exactly march on Washington in some sort of coup d'etat, but I wouldn't exactly be motivated to stop one either.

I take it you don't realize the Navy/Army/Air Force/Marine Corps Times are all part of the Military Times. None of these "papers" are official spokespapers of the respective services. They are owned by Gannett, a media company. The reason the story seems to be "cut and pasted" is because it's the same story. Bottom line - if you think the Navy Times is a Navy media outlet you are dreaming.

TheSoldierwhosaysNi
03-13-2011, 09:21 PM
From the article:
“Military personnel will serve without pay until such time as Congress makes appropriated funds available to compensate them for this period of service.”

From the Constitution:
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

Not that the politicians in power care about the Constitution.

CORNELIUSSEON
03-13-2011, 10:08 PM
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/03/military-contingency-plan-government-shutdown-031111w/

I have a feeling that they will pass another extension but seriously Congress? The military is still running off last fiscal year budget and in 6 months it will be a new fiscal year. Why not take some of the pay from Congress - they aren't doing anything anyway.

Yeah we would get backpay but everyone knows how slow the military is about giving back money they owe but how fast they are to take it away. And if they had to issue back pay to the entire military...we know how long that would take.
This is why people need to make sure they save money when they can I suppose.

Actually, for a definitive answer, please read the following link:http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL34680.pdf

candycane3482
03-13-2011, 11:18 PM
From the article:
“Military personnel will serve without pay until such time as Congress makes appropriated funds available to compensate them for this period of service.”

From the Constitution:
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

Not that the politicians in power care about the Constitution.

How would it be involuntary servitude or slavery? For one, we're all volunteers. For two, it's not that they wouldn't want to pay us, it would be that they couldn't.

candycane3482
03-13-2011, 11:32 PM
Actually, for a definitive answer, please read the following link:http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL34680.pdf

I didn't read anything that said they would stop paying us. All I know is that hopefully we still get paid even if the government shuts down because I don't want to wait for back pay. I just find it weird that the last shutdown military got paid, from what I've read, so I don't know why we wouldn't. I don't think it will happen though. Wasn't there this same looming threat back in 05 or 06? I remember hearing something about it when I was in Iraq in 05-06; or maybe it was 08-09...I can't remember which deployment but I remember someone saying something about it and it never happened.

technomage1
03-13-2011, 11:49 PM
I see what your trying to get at but how long is acceptable to you? 1 month ,6,12 what about 18? I don't think it would ever get to that point but still.

I think that what I think about an acceptable time limit is irrelevant. It doesn't matter how long or short the pay gap is - under the UCMJ you can be charged if you fail to show up to work. It's that simple, really. If, and I think it's highly unlikely, it took a year to resolve, then other actions would be taken to take care of us (DFACs, commissary credit, etc). It would royally, royally stink but we wouldn't be homeless or starve to death.

technomage1
03-13-2011, 11:51 PM
Reality is this, you don't show up for work and they are going to break it off in your @$$. I know it sucks having to work for free but Big Daddy Air Force is going to make an example out of anyone who chooses to buck the system. I would not recomend being that guy/gal...just saying.

This is way better than the old days - they used to flog people for going AWOL...and the death penalty is still on the books for desertion, though I don't think that it would be used now...this is serious stuff.

MRWOXFIRE
03-14-2011, 01:29 AM
:painkiller :rip I bet if there was a law on the books that said no congressperson got paid until a budget was passed, we would've had a working budget on 30 SEP!!

The Cooler
03-14-2011, 02:51 AM
I think that what I think about an acceptable time limit is irrelevant. It doesn't matter how long or short the pay gap is - under the UCMJ you can be charged if you fail to show up to work. It's that simple, really. If, and I think it's highly unlikely, it took a year to resolve, then other actions would be taken to take care of us (DFACs, commissary credit, etc). It would royally, royally stink but we wouldn't be homeless or starve to death.

lol.. if you want to see the military "completely dismantled" then watch us not get paid for a year and see what happens.

VFFSSGT
03-14-2011, 03:11 AM
I think that what I think about an acceptable time limit is irrelevant. It doesn't matter how long or short the pay gap is - under the UCMJ you can be charged if you fail to show up to work. It's that simple, really. If, and I think it's highly unlikely, it took a year to resolve, then other actions would be taken to take care of us (DFACs, commissary credit, etc). It would royally, royally stink but we wouldn't be homeless or starve to death.

Where would they put us?! Those of us that live off base...there is not enough dorms, base housing, TLF, or billeting on any base (or at least most) to support an entire base population.

And what about them outstanding GTC bills?!

And didn't some bases close DFAC's and/or contract them out?! And most DFAC's couldn't support an entire base either.

They going to put us in tents?! How are they going to get them to us if there is no money?

Then who would be paying for late fees, breach of lease, etc? Then there are credit reports that would go in the tank.

Either way, you are right about one thing...it would royally stink. Just hope I get paid the money owed to me right now before sh!t hits the fan.


Found the old thread about similar subject:
Would you continue to serve for nothing but freedom if...?
http://www.militarytimes.com/forum/showthread.php?1574978-Would-you-continue-to-serve-for-nothing-but-freedom-if...

Shrike
03-14-2011, 03:59 AM
Where would they put us?! Those of us that live off base...there is not enough dorms, base housing, TLF, or billeting on any base (or at least most) to support an entire base population.

And what about them outstanding GTC bills?!

And didn't some bases close DFAC's and/or contract them out?! And most DFAC's couldn't support an entire base either.

They going to put us in tents?! How are they going to get them to us if there is no money?

Then who would be paying for late fees, breach of lease, etc? Then there are credit reports that would go in the tank.

Either way, you are right about one thing...it would royally stink. Just hope I get paid the money owed to me right now before sh!t hits the fan.


Found the old thread about similar subject:
Would you continue to serve for nothing but freedom if...?
http://www.militarytimes.com/forum/showthread.php?1574978-Would-you-continue-to-serve-for-nothing-but-freedom-if...

There was also a thread that was almost exactly like this one when the government was on CRA back in 2008 or so. Same types of comments about not going to work, same dose of reality from TechnoMage. I believe that thread was one of the ones deleted by the admin to "fix" their forum upgrade.

technomage1
03-14-2011, 04:31 AM
There was also a thread that was almost exactly like this one when the government was on CRA back in 2008 or so. Same types of comments about not going to work, same dose of reality from TechnoMage. I believe that thread was one of the ones deleted by the admin to "fix" their forum upgrade.

I'm part of the "reality based community"....:)

taeisme
03-14-2011, 11:29 AM
It's simple, flood sick call.

Back when this was possible in the 90's, our BAS Corpsmen agreed to pass out light/no duty chits like candy in the event of a no pay situation.

Well at my crap ass base, we no long have sick call..... So that sucks for me.

Enigmatic Airman
03-14-2011, 12:28 PM
Try to get a job in congress of course!!!

Where else can you get paid (VERY WELL) and not do a DAMN thing worth anything?

atilla
03-14-2011, 01:34 PM
It's time we citizens take a stand on how our government should work !! Pork barrel politics has been around for a long time and if we want to make a serious change in the way our government works, then we need to only vote in to office those who openly oppose those pork barrel shenanegans.

ConfusedAirman
03-14-2011, 01:48 PM
I am kinda hoping that the government will shut down :closed_2 and military members will not get paid. This is simply for my own enjoyment :madgrin so I can read the follow-on posts by those who are currently saying they won't work if not paid. I am figuring that will be good for a laugh. :evil For those who will be hurting, my first thought would be that you need to develop better financial habits than living paycheck to paycheck. For those who honestly will have an issue,there are various social agencies (military and other) that can provide help.

imported_MSGDay
03-14-2011, 01:56 PM
I, along with others, seem to stress the shortcomings of our politicians.
The truth is, the shortcoming IS US!!! The voters who don't bother to follow what our politicians are doing at all levels of government!!!
How many eligible voters even bother to register to vote?
How many registered voters even bother to go to the polls?
And, how many of those voters who go to the polls even bother to read the ballot before hand or do research on the candidates or issues?

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-14-2011, 02:06 PM
I, along with others, seem to stress the shortcomings of our politicians.
The truth is, the shortcoming IS US!!! The voters who don't bother to follow what our politicians are doing at all levels of government!!!
How many eligible voters even bother to register to vote?
How many registered voters even bother to go to the polls?
And, how many of those voters who go to the polls even bother to read the ballot before hand or do research on the candidates or issues?
Agreed, and it needs to be an ongoing process to keep up with politics.

imported_CLSE
03-14-2011, 02:34 PM
I, along with others, seem to stress the shortcomings of our politicians.
The truth is, the shortcoming IS US!!! The voters who don't bother to follow what our politicians are doing at all levels of government!!!
How many eligible voters even bother to register to vote?
How many registered voters even bother to go to the polls?
And, how many of those voters who go to the polls even bother to read the ballot before hand or do research on the candidates or issues?

And how many voters even have a clue about what's in the Constitution, have read the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers and have figured out that the federal government does not have the authority to grant itself powers that are not enumerated by the Constitution?

Then there's the whole issue about people not seeming to stop and think about the fact that the bacon that their representative/senator brings home came out of their own pocket in the form of taxes and everybody else's bacon comes out of their pocket in the form of taxes.

As to not getting paid, is the federal government going to send out notices to all of the banks that servicemembers and non-essential federal employees might not be getting paid and so may miss a mortgage, car, credit card, etc payment or two?

Seriously doubt it. What you want to bet that if the government does shut down, there will still be parties at the White House?

JD2780
03-14-2011, 02:47 PM
I dont live pay check to pay check. Its the principal of it. Enjoy the posts when it happens. I'll enjoy amusing you instead of doing my job.

ConfusedAirman
03-14-2011, 04:00 PM
I dont live pay check to pay check. Its the principal of it. Enjoy the posts when it happens. I'll enjoy amusing you instead of doing my job.

Assuming that you aren't flashing back to school days and you actually mean "principle", I would think that an Air Force warrior such as yourself would have the principles to rise above such pettiness and continue to serve your country to the utmost of your abilities - simply because any reasonable person would know that pay may be late, but it will come. You would do well to remember the second Core Value - Service Before Self.

PT GOD
03-14-2011, 04:02 PM
Personally I think they should stop paying most of you anyways, then you couldnt afford to take your fat preggo looking bellies to Burger King and McDonalds every day...I hope they dont pay any of us for a YEAR or mored, because just like my body is in perfect condition, so is my finances, I never have less than 12 dollars in my account and one can of tuna only cost about 40 cents, do the MATH i can eat for a month on that.

I say stop paying us, or at least stop paying the fat people, give them nothing but salads and water for the next year and start looking like a REAL AF WARRIOR!!!!

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/files/2010/05/Rootstein_CJP775711.jpg

crwchf16
03-14-2011, 04:06 PM
PTGOD, has anyone ever told you that you need to spend some quality time with the fine folks at Mental Health?

imported_Sgt HULK
03-14-2011, 06:00 PM
funny read so far, even funnier to think that this will actually happen

we all know deep down it wont, not even in our jacked up gov.

TheSoldierwhosaysNi
03-14-2011, 06:13 PM
How would it be involuntary servitude or slavery?

What do you call being forced to work without pay?


For one, we're all volunteers. For two, it's not that they wouldn't want to pay us, it would be that they couldn't.

If they wanted to pay us, they would pass a budget. Not that their desire to pay us is at all relevant to the question.

PT GOD
03-14-2011, 06:30 PM
PTGOD, has anyone ever told you that you need to spend some quality time with the fine folks at Mental Health?

yes,i have a standing 1300 every wed...doesnt everyone?

candycane3482
03-14-2011, 08:30 PM
What do you call being forced to work without pay?



If they wanted to pay us, they would pass a budget. Not that their desire to pay us is at all relevant to the question.

It is relevant. We are not the only Americans affected by this budget. There are many, many other organizations and programs that will be affected by this - not just the military. I really highly doubt they will just let this last extension die out Thurs night. They will just pass another one more likely.

I wouldn't call it being involuntary servitude if we don't get paid on the 1st. It's not that we won't ever get paid, it's just that there wouldn't be any money to pay us without the budget approved.

JD2780
03-14-2011, 09:37 PM
Assuming that you aren't flashing back to school days and you actually mean "principle", I would think that an Air Force warrior such as yourself would have the principles to rise above such pettiness and continue to serve your country to the utmost of your abilities - simply because any reasonable person would know that pay may be late, but it will come. You would do well to remember the second Core Value - Service Before Self.

Service before self, my family before service. You're correct on pointing out my spelling mistake. Good on you. Maybe I'm just tired of seeing fat congressional clowns sitting in thier offiices screwing with my pay and still seeing my friends come back in either a box or missing both eyes. Yea since my wife and I are active duty childcare isnt pettiness. Its a reality and when childcare is 1,000 a month i kind of need to get paid. Where is the AF going to be when I retire and what does the AF really give a flying eff about me. It wont give a hoot about me and it doesnt give a hoot about me or about you. Good luck with your company line.

Mowgli
03-15-2011, 12:23 AM
Service before self, my family before service. You're correct on pointing out my spelling mistake. Good on you. Maybe I'm just tired of seeing fat congressional clowns sitting in thier offiices screwing with my pay and still seeing my friends come back in either a box or missing both eyes. Yea since my wife and I are active duty childcare isnt pettiness. Its a reality and when childcare is 1,000 a month i kind of need to get paid. Where is the AF going to be when I retire and what does the AF really give a flying eff about me. It wont give a hoot about me and it doesnt give a hoot about me or about you. Good luck with your company line.

Ha, served up quite nicely. He couldn't have picked a more befitting screen name. FYI. You spelled "their" incorrectly

CSballer89
03-15-2011, 03:38 AM
Ha, served up quite nicely. He couldn't have picked a more befitting screen name. FYI. You spelled "their" incorrectly

You really have nothing better than to point out a spelling mistake? The man has kids to feed and shelter. Like it was previously mentioned bills such as rent, utilities, groceries, gas, insurance, can all quickly add up to $2500 a month depending on where you live. plus child care assuming both parents are at work, there is $3500. That would drain my savings in less than two months.

kenny10
03-15-2011, 06:43 AM
I didn't read anything that said they would stop paying us. All I know is that hopefully we still get paid even if the government shuts down because I don't want to wait for back pay. I just find it weird that the last shutdown military got paid, from what I've read, so I don't know why we wouldn't. I don't think it will happen though. Wasn't there this same looming threat back in 05 or 06? I remember hearing something about it when I was in Iraq in 05-06; or maybe it was 08-09...I can't remember which deployment but I remember someone saying something about it and it never happened.


We won't get paid this time because they specifically rewrote the provision stating that "all military personnel will work, regardless of whether or not they are getting paid"

candycane3482
03-15-2011, 09:33 AM
We won't get paid this time because they specifically rewrote the provision stating that "all military personnel will work, regardless of whether or not they are getting paid"

Where does it say that?

candycane3482
03-15-2011, 09:38 AM
Actually, the bickering, infighting and non-bipartisanship is BETTER for the country, and average Joe. You want these tards, with the power they have, streamlined and efficient? Why do you think we have 3 branches of government?

Not me.

Debate is good - fighting like fifth graders is not. I don't want those elected to represent the US to fight over THEIR own interests and bicker like school children. What's wrong with having an efficient government?

candycane3482
03-15-2011, 09:40 AM
In 1995 Congress passed a special resolution that allowed the military to continue getting paid when the rest of the government shut down. Unless that do that again pay would technically stop. Whenever the budget or new pay resolution is passed everyone would be back paid for any pay that may have missed if the impasse continues that long. You will get paid just not necessarily on our normal paydays.

Yeah but we all know how long it takes the military to give backpay. That's not going to help people who have bills to pay or children to take care of. Like I stated, the military is sure quick to take back money you owe it but as soon as it owes you money, oh don't expect to see it very soon.

crwchf16
03-15-2011, 11:21 AM
yes,i have a standing 1300 every wed...doesnt everyone?

So much is now explained...

JD2780
03-15-2011, 12:38 PM
You really have nothing better than to point out a spelling mistake? The man has kids to feed and shelter. Like it was previously mentioned bills such as rent, utilities, groceries, gas, insurance, can all quickly add up to $2500 a month depending on where you live. plus child care assuming both parents are at work, there is $3500. That would drain my savings in less than two months.

He was being sarcastic and was actually backing me up. Yes it does add up quickly.

Saint Mirror
03-15-2011, 12:43 PM
I'm just a Private and generally don't have the time to even watch the news, but seeing this makes me wonder how many of my buddies will see that they're not getting paid and just go home...wherever home may be and regardless of where they're stationed. It'll be interesting.

EOMFD/GFYM8
03-15-2011, 12:43 PM
SEE! This is what I was trying to say earlier! Yeah, service before self and core values and we all signed our life away...BUT...we signed our life away to a CAPITALIST system. Capitalist volunteers with core values get MFing PAID!

RitzzBitzz
03-15-2011, 01:42 PM
Well, even tho everyone on here is confident that pay will not stop, i have a question. In the event that legislation does stop our pay, how are military personnel going to be able to pay their bills? Most people have not been in long enough to have much in the way of a est egg besides their TSP. Rent, power, services, car payments... all of these get paid monthly and most people need thier paychecks to cover the expenses along with food and recreation. is there going to be some sort of relief or is there gonna be something that we'll get to put our bills on hold?:tsk I know that even though i keep at least $1000 in the bank at all times, its not enough to cover all my bills and i would really hate to get evicted bc the government won't pay us. I don't work for free. No pay, no work.:nono

TheSoldierwhosaysNi
03-15-2011, 01:45 PM
:painkiller :rip I bet if there was a law on the books that said no congressperson got paid until a budget was passed, we would've had a working budget on 30 SEP!!

I disagree. They'd still be getting their paychecks from the lobbyists. The lobbyists would probably even give them a little more to make up the difference.

RitzzBitzz
03-15-2011, 02:22 PM
Its easy for Congress to revoke the pay for others when they get a nice fat paycheck to do so. Between their obscene pay and immunity from most crimes, they dont have anything to worry about. I'd like to see the president cut their pay down, make them follow the same laws everyone else has to, and when they get out of office, they have to get a damned job like everybody else. They were meant to serve the people. It was supposed to be an honor to be elected to serve your country at such a position of power. Nowadays, they don't treat it like a priviledge.

TheSoldierwhosaysNi
03-15-2011, 02:26 PM
Its easy for Congress to revoke the pay for others when they get a nice fat paycheck to do so. Between their obscene pay and immunity from most crimes, they dont have anything to worry about. I'd like to see the president cut their pay down, make them follow the same laws everyone else has to, and when they get out of office, they have to get a damned job like everybody else. They were meant to serve the people. It was supposed to be an honor to be elected to serve your country at such a position of power. Nowadays, they don't treat it like a priviledge.

Don't forget eliminating their pensions.

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-15-2011, 02:26 PM
I disagree. They'd still be getting their paychecks from the lobbyists. The lobbyists would probably even give them a little more to make up the difference.

And Union buddies.

RitzzBitzz
03-15-2011, 02:29 PM
@ TheSoldierwhosaysNi
government shuts down, so would troop pay

"Don't forget eliminating their pensions."

Oh yes, lets not forget that.

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-15-2011, 02:29 PM
Its easy for Congress to revoke the pay for others when they get a nice fat paycheck to do so. Between their obscene pay and immunity from most crimes, they dont have anything to worry about. I'd like to see the president cut their pay down, make them follow the same laws everyone else has to, and when they get out of office, they have to get a damned job like everybody else. They were meant to serve the people. It was supposed to be an honor to be elected to serve your country at such a position of power. Nowadays, they don't treat it like a priviledge.
And POTUS pay decreased from $400k/year too. 2009 Obama made over $2mil as president, talk about shaddy. You know he also doesn't pay for every trip he goes on, or all the food he eats.

Pullinteeth
03-15-2011, 02:55 PM
Meh... Methinks at worst we will have a delay in pay. It will suck but even if they have the gov shutdown, they will almost certainly pass a temp bill to continue mil pay. Can you imagine a Rep or Sen. that votes AGAINST such a provision getting re-elected? I can't. The opponents campaign would be done before they even declared their candidacy. "So-and-so voted against paying troops in harm's way." The end. As to those that claim they wouldn't come to work, if it comes to that, you WILL receive a briefing informing you that failure to show up will result in disp action (likely and Art 15). What I would personally think should be a bigger concern is the fact that civilians won't be at work. With all the drawdowns, a lot of work is done by our civilian workforce and with the current #s, I don't see how we can keep getting the mission done without them for very long...

candycane3482
03-15-2011, 03:42 PM
Well, even tho everyone on here is confident that pay will not stop, i have a question. In the event that legislation does stop our pay, how are military personnel going to be able to pay their bills? Most people have not been in long enough to have much in the way of a est egg besides their TSP. Rent, power, services, car payments... all of these get paid monthly and most people need thier paychecks to cover the expenses along with food and recreation. is there going to be some sort of relief or is there gonna be something that we'll get to put our bills on hold?:tsk I know that even though i keep at least $1000 in the bank at all times, its not enough to cover all my bills and i would really hate to get evicted bc the government won't pay us. I don't work for free. No pay, no work.:nono

You're worried about losing money from a delayed paycheck? Try not showing up for work during that time and see how much money you lose from the Article 15. If it does get delayed it will probably be one paycheck. Yes that affects a lot of people but either there will be a plan or people will have to borrow money or find a way I guess. This is why people need to have a plan in place even if they just got in the Army.

candycane3482
03-15-2011, 03:44 PM
I'm just a Private and generally don't have the time to even watch the news, but seeing this makes me wonder how many of my buddies will see that they're not getting paid and just go home...wherever home may be and regardless of where they're stationed. It'll be interesting.

Do you really think it's that easy to pick up and go home when in Iraq, Afghanistan or anywhere overseas? People won't be just "go home" if they don't get paid. Go ahead and take that chance. Also, you don't have time to read the news but you have time to comment on the news that you haven't even paid attention to? It's not that hard to scroll through the headlines - situational awareness is a good thing.

Saint Mirror
03-15-2011, 04:01 PM
Negative I don't think it would be that easy for anyone deployed to just come on home: is anyone that naive? Naturally I was referring to those lower enlisted who were still fresh to military life and still find it difficult to be away from home, especially since the pay (the promise of job security) is all that keeps some of them from going home as it is. I can only imagine what must be going through their mind

And yes I do find the time to look up things that interest me between PT and formation or during lunch or even off duty just like any normal person does, especially when my dear parents tell me that I should probably take a closer look at the news.

Saint Mirror
03-15-2011, 04:01 PM
Negative I don't think it would be that easy for anyone deployed to just come on home: is anyone that naive? Naturally I was referring to those lower enlisted who were still fresh to military life and still find it difficult to be away from home, especially since the pay (the promise of job security) is all that keeps some of them from going home as it is. I can only imagine what must be going through their mind

And yes I do find the time to look up things that interest me between PT and formation or during lunch or even off duty just like any normal person does, especially when my dear parents tell me that I should probably take a closer look at the news.

RitzzBitzz
03-15-2011, 04:23 PM
You're worried about losing money from a delayed paycheck? Try not showing up for work during that time and see how much money you lose from the Article 15. If it does get delayed it will probably be one paycheck. Yes that affects a lot of people but either there will be a plan or people will have to borrow money or find a way I guess. This is why people need to have a plan in place even if they just got in the Army.

umm... Yeah. I said i dont work for free. I'll show up, but i may just sit there. If the govt runs out of money, my job is rather useless. Supply can only work thru funds. No money, no parts get ordered, nothing gets shipped... basically we sit there.

and just because i asked a simple question does not require you to preach the articles to me. i know them. My question was for EVERYONE; those who have been in 30 years and those who just got in yesterday, single, married, parents... everyone will have a hard time with this and i was simply wondering if there was a way to relieve some of the financial stress so that people don't end up homeless, hungry, w/o transportation... at least until their pay picks up again.

spirit_eyes
03-15-2011, 04:27 PM
i remember not being paid, back in '85? could have sworn we had an issue around '90 - '81. i was in p.r. at the time.
there was a story about a base captain who shut his base down. said if his troops weren't getting paid, they weren't working. could have been a sea story.

candycane3482
03-15-2011, 05:12 PM
Negative I don't think it would be that easy for anyone deployed to just come on home: is anyone that naive? Naturally I was referring to those lower enlisted who were still fresh to military life and still find it difficult to be away from home, especially since the pay (the promise of job security) is all that keeps some of them from going home as it is. I can only imagine what must be going through their mind

And yes I do find the time to look up things that interest me between PT and formation or during lunch or even off duty just like any normal person does, especially when my dear parents tell me that I should probably take a closer look at the news.

This is your quote: "I'm just a Private and generally don't have the time to even watch the news, but seeing this makes me wonder how many of my buddies will see that they're not getting paid and just go home...wherever home may be and regardless of where they're stationed. It'll be interesting."

I was simply going off your statement. You said you don't have the time to even watch the news - so that's why I said how can you not have time to watch the news but comment on it? You also stated you're "just a private" (whatever that means because I hate when people say "I'm just (insert rank)." That doesn't mean you're a complete moron because of the rank the military gives you or that you're better than someone because of it - just an aside.

Also if someone's sole purpose in the military is a job or job security, then they probably are in the wrong place. If the only way someone stays at work is because of the paycheck - and not the risk of getting in trouble or discharged - then they need someone to talk to them and explain the military is not a job you can just walk away from. Yes I did not join the military for purely patriotic reasons but I realize that it's a lot bigger than "just a job." Also, there isn't going to be much job security in the military over the next few years as they go through this process of letting people go.

candycane3482
03-15-2011, 05:29 PM
umm... Yeah. I said i dont work for free. I'll show up, but i may just sit there. If the govt runs out of money, my job is rather useless. Supply can only work thru funds. No money, no parts get ordered, nothing gets shipped... basically we sit there.

and just because i asked a simple question does not require you to preach the articles to me. i know them. My question was for EVERYONE; those who have been in 30 years and those who just got in yesterday, single, married, parents... everyone will have a hard time with this and i was simply wondering if there was a way to relieve some of the financial stress so that people don't end up homeless, hungry, w/o transportation... at least until their pay picks up again.

Yeah a lot of people are going to just "sit there." You know how many times I've showed up to work and not had anything to do? That won't change if I get paid or not - it'll just suck more because I didn't get paid for a certain time. But the point was that regardless of if you get paid or not, you still have to show up for accountabililty. Your commander could tell you all to go home since there's no work but you would still have to show up.

Also if my comment upset or offended you...you might want to go to another forum because people can get waaaay worse on here. Obviously some people will have a hard time - but they'll just have to figure it out. They'll have to call their places where they have bills and try to negotiate with them, they may have to borrow money from somewhere. I really doubt it will get to the point of people being homeless or hungry. This might be the point that causes some people to reevaluate their finances and start to set up an emergency savings for cases like this. Just an idea.

Pullinteeth
03-15-2011, 05:48 PM
Negative I don't think it would be that easy for anyone deployed to just come on home: is anyone that naive? Naturally I was referring to those lower enlisted who were still fresh to military life and still find it difficult to be away from home, especially since the pay (the promise of job security) is all that keeps some of them from going home as it is. I can only imagine what must be going through their mind

And yes I do find the time to look up things that interest me between PT and formation or during lunch or even off duty just like any normal person does, especially when my dear parents tell me that I should probably take a closer look at the news.

I was brand new in '95 and they had a budget crisis at that time too...we were briefed that we would show up whether we got paid or not-OR ELSE....

candycane3482
03-15-2011, 05:52 PM
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-03-15/stopgap-budget-measure-to-clear-house-amid-republican-complaints.html

So we'll get paid on the 1st. But after that...who knows. Does it suck that our politicians toy with people's lives like this? Yes. Is there much we can do - in the military? Nope.

candycane3482
03-15-2011, 05:53 PM
I was brand new in '95 and they had a budget crisis at that time too...we were briefed that we would show up whether we got paid or not-OR ELSE....

From what I've read on that though it was written in to ensure military were still paid. This time they're making it sound like that's not the case. That's why people are upset really and feel that if they don't get paid, they can walk away like they work at McDonald's or something. Sorry people - can't just "quit" the Army.

KEESH55
03-15-2011, 09:36 PM
I believe Congress and the president should think this decision through entirely before making it final. A country without a military force is no longer a functioning government, and will become susceptible to countless opportunities for revolution or adversarial attack. I'm shocked this is even on the table.

imported_KnuckleDragger
03-15-2011, 09:36 PM
The entire military not getting paid would be catastrophic. How many people have automatic allotments, and less than 1 months pay in that same account? The banks will get rich from all the troops' overdraft fees.

If this ever did happen, there better be some facking official guidance more than 1 day in advance.

candycane3482
03-15-2011, 09:43 PM
The entire military not getting paid would be catastrophic. How many people have automatic allotments, and less than 1 months pay in that same account? The banks will get rich from all the troops' overdraft fees.

If this ever did happen, there better be some facking official guidance more than 1 day in advance.

Well I don't think people expect it to happen because I'm wondering why there hasn't been any guidance issues just in case. Luckily for me I've got money saved up (thank you deployments, reenlistment and being single lol). I do have an automatic allotment so that would suck and some people don't have money...so that's why people should be thinking "Maybe I should start a savings now just in case this happens again."

candycane3482
03-15-2011, 09:45 PM
I believe Congress and the president should think this decision through entirely before making it final. A country without a military force is no longer a functioning government, and will become susceptible to countless opportunities for revolution or adversarial attack. I'm shocked this is even on the table.

But they're not thinking about the military with the budget - they're all fighting with each other about cutting other programs. The Republicans want to cut things and the Dems don't want them to. As much as I'm for low income health care like PLanned Parenthood if it means I get to keep my paycheck and my soldiers get theirs, sorry it's gotta go. That's one of the big things the Repubs are fighting back against and want federal funding cut to.

KEESH55
03-15-2011, 09:50 PM
But they're not thinking about the military with the budget - they're all fighting with each other about cutting other programs. The Republicans want to cut things and the Dems don't want them to. As much as I'm for low income health care like PLanned Parenthood if it means I get to keep my paycheck and my soldiers get theirs, sorry it's gotta go. That's one of the big things the Repubs are fighting back against and want federal funding cut to.

Absolutely, and no checks should be cut AFTER the military, to include politicians. This is a dangerous game they're playing...

Measure Man
03-15-2011, 09:57 PM
The entire military not getting paid would be catastrophic. How many people have automatic allotments, and less than 1 months pay in that same account? The banks will get rich from all the troops' overdraft fees.

If this ever did happen, there better be some facking official guidance more than 1 day in advance.

Doesn't everyone have 6 months of living expenses in their Emergency Fund?

Is this a readiness issue?

Aitrus
03-15-2011, 09:59 PM
How about cutting 5-10% from all programs? That way, everybody feels the same pinch, and nobody can complain that program X or pet project Y didn't contribute.

As for the thread topic, I wonder what would be said of those civilians who did show up to work, knowing they probably wouldn't get paid.

WeaponsTSGT
03-15-2011, 10:33 PM
You do realize that even if you show up at work and do what you describe above, that's failure to obey a lawful order (article 92) that you're proposing? Either way will get you into a bunch of hot water. Look, if you want to buck the system that's your choice. The best, I repeat best, thing that will happen to you is an article 15. You could also be discharged for it and even go to prison.

No one forced you to raise your right hand and volunteer to be in the military. But because you did, there are certain things that you have to do and certain freedoms that you don't have anymore. If you don't want to live that lifestyle, then I suggest returning to civilian life. With the drawdowns and poor economy there are plenty of people who want to stay in and follow the rules.

First off you don't need to be a dick, yeah I raised my right hand and on the same not the government agreed to pay me X amount in the paygrade of X. So instead of quoting military literature as if you're my CC, or anyone elses on this board maybe you should shut your mouth, if you can't support the others on the board that have been through a hell of a lot, maybe you should just STFU.

LogicalMisanthrope
03-15-2011, 11:17 PM
2603They are just trying to scare you and pull you in either one direction or the other hoping to gain power in their political parties. Be insulted,don't pick sides in their sad little struggle to fulfill the interests of their parties instead of the people that they are elected to represent. They are under the assumption the minds and hearts of the people are easily bought and swayed by what they tell us is going to happen. They think you're dumb. It works a lot like when a child misbehaves. The more you give them what they want to appease them the more they do it and the worse it gets.

Moral of the story is wait until the people who actually care about you and not the party to get somewhere and throw support behind them. (assuming that they ever succeed in their struggle to bring the country back to what it is supposed to be) Read up on politics even though it is often agrivating and tedious and may require a dictionary. Become educated and make better decisions on the peole you choose to represent you. Stop complaining about the problems the people you elected cause when it turns out they are not who they make themselves out to be.

TheSoldierwhosaysNi
03-16-2011, 12:18 AM
As much as I'm for low income health care like PLanned Parenthood

The federal government doesn't have any more business funding Planned Barrenhood than it has funding the Ku Klux Klan. It's a moral abomination.

TheSoldierwhosaysNi
03-16-2011, 12:21 AM
How about cutting 5-10% from all programs? That way, everybody feels the same pinch, and nobody can complain that program X or pet project Y didn't contribute.

How about cutting 100% from the unconstitutional programs? We have a massive debt today precisely because of politicians betraying our country by spending on whatever they want with no constitutional authority.

JD2780
03-16-2011, 02:48 AM
The federal government doesn't have any more business funding Planned Barrenhood than it has funding the Ku Klux Klan. It's a moral abomination.

Planned parent is a moral abomination? What about the rape victim that became pregnant? Think about more than the welfare system rider with one thousand babies.

chevyman
03-16-2011, 03:00 AM
How about we cut federal funding for programs like NPR and PBS? I am sorry but if they can afford to pay thier leaders six figure incomes, they do not need taxpayer dollars. Who watches PBS and listens to NPR anyway?

JD2780
03-16-2011, 03:19 AM
My kids watch PBS but they dont need tax money.

chevyman
03-16-2011, 03:31 AM
My kids watch PBS but they dont need tax money.

That is what I am saying, cut the funds to PBS. I know that PBS has educational program for children but do thier leaders need to be paid that much money? All the other networks make it with out government funds, PBS can do the same.

JD2780
03-16-2011, 03:40 AM
That is what I am saying, cut the funds to PBS. I know that PBS has educational program for children but do thier leaders need to be paid that much money? All the other networks make it with out government funds, PBS can do the same.

100% on the same page.

LogicalMisanthrope
03-16-2011, 03:51 AM
Who watches PBS and listens to NPR anyway?


Lots of small children watch PBS due to the nmber of educational kids shows that they air. As far as NPR goes there a lot of young adults to middle aged people that listen to NPR all the time. That and people in driving professions such as taxi drivers and semi truck drivers. NPR also lost its funding from the government recently, at least as far as I know they are no longer federally funded. It isnt a bad resource for information, definitely shouldnt be a person's only source though. No one source should be a person's only source or they will never be able to form a well rounded and informed opinion on anything.

Shrike
03-16-2011, 07:36 AM
The federal government doesn't have any more business funding Planned Barrenhood than it has funding the Ku Klux Klan. It's a moral abomination.

Obviously you don't even know you're own religion, as your god revels in infanticide and abortion. (http://www.evilbible.com/god%27s%20not%20pro-life.htm)

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-16-2011, 12:25 PM
Doesn't everyone have 6 months of living expenses in their Emergency Fund?

Is this a readiness issue?

Government programs have left the majority of Americans unable to concieve of saving for a rainy day, or their own retirement. Unemployment and retirement have been covered by the government and no one thinks they have to support themselves when they stop working. All the while, the government has been spending yours and my social security contributions as if it was their own. I would like someone to do some actual number crunching on social security and see how much money would be in that fund if the government hadn't used the "excess" each year to cover their spending. I bet we would have well over $160 TRILLION in the bank right now if it was treated like a true mutual fund and invested till the time people were ready to retire. We owe $62 trillion in social security and medicare entitlements in the next few years when the baby boomers start retiring, and it is only going to get worse.

JD2780
03-16-2011, 12:54 PM
Measureman- I dont feel 6 months of expenses is a readiness issue. If I deploy short notice or anything else I'll still be getting paid. I'll even have less opportunity to spend it. Now yes for the most part its irresponsible to just live paycheck to paycheck, but some young Airmen dont know any better yet because nobody has sat down with them and assisted them in making a budget and working with them to stick to it. You get a 17-18 year old kids that leave home for the first time. In some cases the time from BMT to techschool graduation can be as little as 3-5 months. Not a lot of growing going on there when you're being told what to do at every turn and not making real decisions. We as NCO/SNCO heck even the SrA need to sit down with our younger troops and help them plan for what could be a problem. I'm willing to bet nothing happens as far as the budget goes, but I'm not taking chances. Got savings cutting cable costs as well looking for 2nd jobs since apparently congress and the AF seem to think I'll just work for free.

imported_Seasons
03-16-2011, 02:19 PM
The federal government doesn't have any more business funding Planned Barrenhood than it has funding the Ku Klux Klan. It's a moral abomination.

Why is it immoral? Because it offers the option of abortion?

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-16-2011, 02:25 PM
Why is it immoral? Because it offers the option of abortion?

Cause it allows for the option of abortion to admitted pimps dealing in under age sex slaves. That and being started by Margret Sanger, the founder who believed we should get rid of the "less disriables". Also that planned parenthood sets up shop in the lower income areas of inner cities to target those that Sanger felt were the "less disriables." And that 2x more black deaths occur from abortion than the next top 5 cause of death in blacks. Make it easy to get out a life altering choice and you don't need any self control.

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-16-2011, 02:26 PM
Why is it immoral? Because it offers the option of abortion?

Cause it allows for the option of abortion to admitted pimps dealing in under age sex slaves. That and being started by Margret Sanger, the founder who believed we should get rid of the "less disriables". Also that planned parenthood sets up shop in the lower income areas of inner cities to target those that Sanger felt were the "less disriables." And that 2x more black deaths occur from abortion than the next top 5 cause of death in blacks. Make it easy to get out a life altering choice and you don't need any self control.

imported_Seasons
03-16-2011, 02:52 PM
Cause it allows for the option of abortion to admitted pimps dealing in under age sex slaves. That and being started by Margret Sanger, the founder who believed we should get rid of the "less disriables". Also that planned parenthood sets up shop in the lower income areas of inner cities to target those that Sanger felt were the "less disriables." And that 2x more black deaths occur from abortion than the next top 5 cause of death in blacks. Make it easy to get out a life altering choice and you don't need any self control.

I won't disagree that it needs more/better policing, but I feel it offers a valid service and resource without pressuring recipients one way or the other. At least this has been my experience from both my wife's interactions with them and several of my friends'.

Something else I found looking into recent stories on funding of it.

Title X of the Public Service Act is a federal grant program signed into law by President Richard Nixon in 1970. According to the Guttmacher Institute, a New York-based reproductive health research center, the law had broad bipartisan support and was the result of increasing concerns that low-income women were not able to get access to family planning services and had higher rates of unwanted pregnancies than more affluent women.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41996806/ns/health-health_care/

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-16-2011, 03:27 PM
...family planning services...I don't see abortion as a moral family planning service. It is a last ditch effort to escape taking responsibility for ones actions. Rape, inadvertent incest(daddy raping daughter is covered under rape), and health concerns for the mother should be the only reasons for abortions in my idea. Not because someone went out and got drunk and had sex and can't afford to take care of it, that is escaping responsibility just as people criticize the dads that skip out on their families.

Also, have you ever seen the documentary called "Freakonomics"? They brought up a stat of crime rates and how they were out of control until about the 90's. But they dropped off sharply since. The compared the crime rate stats vs. the time when Nixon signed the abortion law and said that at this point in time (90s) was the time most of the kids that were aborted would be in the age range of most criminal activities are committed. They also showed that in the states that had passed abortion laws in their states 2 years before Nixon signed the federal law, those state started to lower their crime rates 2 years earlier than the states that fell under the national law.

Why do I bring this up? Cause the movie stopped there and didn't present the numbers of blacks getting 3 times as many abortions than whites. That is the last tid bit of information that needed to be lumped in with abortion rates and you can interpret the numbers however you want.

imported_Seasons
03-16-2011, 04:00 PM
The issue I see with limiting abortion is that it becomes far more difficult to ensure those that need it (rape, incest, health) actually are able to get access. A good example would be the hospital that was heavily chastised (and its leader excommunicated) by the church that had supported them for the decision to give an abortion to save a woman's life.

When it comes to personal morals, its an issue that the person will have to decide for themselves, so I believe it should remain a choice. The consequences of the choice will be their's to mull over.

Measure Man
03-16-2011, 04:00 PM
Cause it allows for the option of abortion to admitted pimps dealing in under age sex slaves.

...and forcing sex slaves to carrry a baby to full term is moral?

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-16-2011, 06:18 PM
...and forcing sex slaves to carrry a baby to full term is moral?

No, but maybe they at planned abortions should report this kind of behavior when it is the pimp going in to check on services and not the under age sex slave?

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-16-2011, 06:19 PM
When it comes to personal morals, its an issue that the person will have to decide for themselves, so I believe it should remain a choice. The consequences of the choice will be their's to mull over.

And so there for it should not be up to the government to fund such objectionable actions.

Measure Man
03-16-2011, 06:24 PM
No, but maybe they at planned abortions should report this kind of behavior when it is the pimp going in to check on services and not the under age sex slave?

1) How do they know he is a pimp?

2) Abortion clinics are not law enforcement

3) Pimping and sex-slavery are already illegal...trying to enforce them with an end-around on abortion rights just doesn't make sense to me...how will limiting abortions counter sex trafficking?

imported_Seasons
03-16-2011, 06:38 PM
And so there for it should not be up to the government to fund such objectionable actions.

So long as the option exists, and the alternative is not funded outside the bounds of equal treatment. This is one of the few cases where some from of equal protection needs to be enforced, I believe. If maternity wards receive federal funds, so should abortion clinics, with rules in place to yank funds immediately if violations occur.

Wicked Zombie
03-16-2011, 06:44 PM
In what way does this abortion conversation have anything to do with the possiblility of pay stoppage, the thread got jacked!

imported_Seasons
03-16-2011, 06:51 PM
In what way does this abortion conversation have anything to do with the possiblility of pay stoppage, the thread got jacked!

Yeah, went on a tangent discussing public funding, my bad.

TheSoldierwhosaysNi
03-16-2011, 07:00 PM
1) How do they know he is a pimp?

Have you seen the video? He basically tells them he's a pimp. Plus he's wearing a fur coat and walking with a cane.

candycane3482
03-16-2011, 07:31 PM
The federal government doesn't have any more business funding Planned Barrenhood than it has funding the Ku Klux Klan. It's a moral abomination.

How is Planned Parenthood a "moral abomination?" You know that they provide health care to women who otherwise wouldn't be able to get any? They promote safe sex or abstinence more than abortions. Plus you know that Planned Parenthood isn't the only place that provides abortions right?

I know a professor of mine who said she had to use Planned Parenthood because she was a single mother (divorced) who was struggling and couldn't afford any other health care and PP saved her. They offer mammograms, pap smears, information on STDs, provide health care for those who have STDs.

candycane3482
03-16-2011, 07:39 PM
No, but maybe they at planned abortions should report this kind of behavior when it is the pimp going in to check on services and not the under age sex slave?

First of all, it wasn't a real pimp. They were "undercover." Second what you don't see on those videos is that the managers notified their superiors of what had happened. I think the one who got fired didn't but the other one did. She called her superiors and authorities about the matter but you don't hear that anywhere do you? No of course not.

Honestly, the government should not be able to tell me what I can or can't do with my body. If I ever came to the point of the decision of having an abortion or not, that's up to me. Some people it isn't because they "went out and got drunk and knocked up." The only thing I don't agree with is late-term abortion. If you're past three months or into your second trimester, you might as well just have the kid. That should be the only type of abortion that government or medical professionals have a say in and the only time I ever know of that being done is when the mother's life is in danger.

Planned Parenthood does more than just abortions and that's the point. I know a lot of women who got their medical needs provided because of Planned Parenthood and without it, they wouldn't have had any health care.

candycane3482
03-16-2011, 07:40 PM
In what way does this abortion conversation have anything to do with the possiblility of pay stoppage, the thread got jacked!

I mentioned the reason why the budget isn't approved is because the two parties are fighting over what to cut and that one of the things the Repubs want to cut is PP and the Dems don't want to. Then someone decided to state it's a "moral abomination."

Measure Man
03-16-2011, 07:42 PM
Have you seen the video? He basically tells them he's a pimp. Plus he's wearing a fur coat and walking with a cane.

haven't seen it...don't even know what video you're talking about.

candycane3482
03-16-2011, 07:51 PM
haven't seen it...don't even know what video you're talking about.

The same group that went undercover and filmed ACORN did the same thing at PP and had someone go in as a "pimp" and get information on his "sex slaves" saying they had STDs, or how to get them abortions and that they were 15. He wasn't a real pimp but the PP managers didn't know. HOWEVER, even though they did tell them what to do, they did call the authorities after.

Measure Man
03-16-2011, 07:56 PM
The same group that went undercover and filmed ACORN did the same thing at PP and had someone go in as a "pimp" and get information on his "sex slaves" saying they had STDs, or how to get them abortions and that they were 15. He wasn't a real pimp but the PP managers didn't know. HOWEVER, even though they did tell them what to do, they did call the authorities after.

LOL...okay, sounds about right. I'll have to go look for that later

New PP policy "No health information given to pimps"

WestCoastAR_Crewdog
03-16-2011, 08:13 PM
can we get back on topic please?

Measure Man
03-16-2011, 08:19 PM
can we get back on topic please?

Okay.

Troops not get paid over this? It'll never happen.

BadBender
03-16-2011, 09:17 PM
The next time we read about the government wanting to cut military benefits, that were earned with blood sweat and tears across the globe and at home we need to remember that same government funds Planned Parenthood, studies on fruit flies, tunnels for turtles in Florida and a whole list of other things.

We get told that Tri-Care rates need to go up because of increased costs but nothing is said about the pork that gets shoved into bills all the time. If the pay stops, or freezes I’ll still come to work but if the no pay thing is prolonged (I doubt it will be) then how can we expect folks to volunteer to serve for nothing?

TheSoldierwhosaysNi
03-16-2011, 09:18 PM
Honestly, the government should not be able to tell me what I can or can't do with my body.

No one's talking about *your* body. We're talking about your baby's body.


Planned Parenthood does more than just abortions and that's the point.

The Nazis did more than just gassing Jews. Would you support giving them tax dollars as well?

Adolf Hitler - Fuehrer of Nazi Germany "The demand that defective people be prevented from propagating equally defective offspring. . . represents the most humane act of mankind." Mein Kampf, vol. 1, ch. 10

Margaret Sanger - Founder of Planned Parenthood ". . .we prefer the policy of immediate sterilizarion, of making sure that parenthood is ' absolutely prohibited ' to the feeble-minded." The Pivot of Civilization, p102

http://blackgenocide.org/planned.html

BTW, nice job hijacking the thread to praise a neo-Nazi organization.

JD2780
03-16-2011, 09:54 PM
Are you serious? You just compared Hitler to planned parenthood. You're a nutjob. Planned parenthood also assist rape victims.

Banned
03-17-2011, 12:33 AM
Unfortunately he's right - Planned Parenthood was founded as part of the Eugenics Movement. The drive to create a "master race" did eventually lead to Hitler's extermination of the Jews, Slavs and other "inferiors".

That doesn't mean the people working there TODAY are racists or Nazis, but its important for us to be aware of the historical roots of our society.

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-17-2011, 10:11 AM
1) How do they know he is a pimp?

2) Abortion clinics are not law enforcement

3) Pimping and sex-slavery are already illegal...trying to enforce them with an end-around on abortion rights just doesn't make sense to me...how will limiting abortions counter sex trafficking?
1) They admit it to the PP worker. The worker ignored it and gave advice of how to go around needing parents consent to get the abortion.

2) They know how to work a phone and call law enforcement.

3) So because there is a big problem like sex slavery and human trafficing, we should ignore those who endorse the practice because it wouldn't solve the overall problem? Well hell, lets go back to allowing military to partake in jucies in Korea again because even though we are forbidden to bar fine, there are still jucies in Kunsan and Osan.

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-17-2011, 10:16 AM
The same group that went undercover and filmed ACORN did the same thing at PP and had someone go in as a "pimp" and get information on his "sex slaves" saying they had STDs, or how to get them abortions and that they were 15. He wasn't a real pimp but the PP managers didn't know. HOWEVER, even though they did tell them what to do, they did call the authorities after.
No, it was a different reporter. The person that got ACORN got NPR making an ass of themselves. And just because they aren't a real pimp and only undercover, doesn't mean PP shouldn't have called the cops. PP didn't know they were undercover.

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-17-2011, 10:20 AM
Unfortunately he's right - Planned Parenthood was founded as part of the Eugenics Movement. The drive to create a "master race" did eventually lead to Hitler's extermination of the Jews, Slavs and other "inferiors".

That doesn't mean the people working there TODAY are racists or Nazis, but its important for us to be aware of the historical roots of our society.
They never denounce Margret Sangers vision for the master race in PP even to this day. But I am glad you know your history.

Wicked Zombie
03-17-2011, 01:50 PM
Fine, If women want to complain that it's your body and you can do to it what you want so be it, I have know problem with that. But answer me this, why in the hell when I wanted to get [B]my[B] vasectomy, the damn doctor my wife had to sign off on it as well, WTF. Doulbe standards! End rant. Now lets get the "F" back on topic.

Measure Man
03-17-2011, 03:03 PM
1) They admit it to the PP worker. The worker ignored it and gave advice of how to go around needing parents consent to get the abortion.

2) They know how to work a phone and call law enforcement.

3) So because there is a big problem like sex slavery and human trafficing, we should ignore those who endorse the practice because it wouldn't solve the overall problem? Well hell, lets go back to allowing military to partake in jucies in Korea again because even though we are forbidden to bar fine, there are still jucies in Kunsan and Osan.

Okay...I saw the video. She should be fired.

It was also pretty clear she was NOT following PP policy.

Kurth70
03-17-2011, 04:17 PM
Being a retired Army :usa2:usa2E-8 who went through the one in the 90's while I was on recruiting duty and currently a civil service employee it is a little concerning but not much. In the 90's even though we were on active duty we basically stayed home because we could not use GOV's, make phone calls or do anything that could incur costs to the government but I think it only lasted a day or 2 and didn't affect our pay. If I was to be furloughed this go around as a civilian, I am confident we would get back paid and I don't think it would last very long anyway. An extended furlogh would create more problems than its worth. Not ALL civil service employees sit around and do nothing.....

USAF-O
03-17-2011, 05:49 PM
First, a few assumptions:
1) pay stops 1 Apr,
2) pay restarts at a later period of time and
3) at some point, military members receive back pay for the period of no pay

If individuals are saying that they will not report for duty post 1 Apr until pay is returned, should they be entitled to any back pay for the period of time in which they had not reported for duty?

MAGOBI
03-17-2011, 06:13 PM
Well the reality is that large amount of servicmembers exist from pay check to pay check...So is the Congress the one who will pay all those late payments fees!
And yes it is time to have obligatory service for all!
When you don't go thrue darkness off deployments ,separation from your family, woory about the deployed service member safety,stress off pcs,and rebuliding your home and family life after any of the events ...
It is fricking easy to treat you like garbage !This is dyscouting what kind goverment we are supporting, we protect???
Why instead taking away from the wallets off those who put their life in any contest off it in huge turblans and danger, we start digging into paychecks off those politcian!
Hey gentalmes why dont you come and visit those military families for nicely televized disscution on the april 1,when they will have no money to take care off the bills!!HMMMMMMMMMM!!!
I wish you good luck with military wifes!They will have no mercy on you !
You are discraice ,and the problem in this nation!
If you let mlitary do their job withuot puting your lasy dirty fingers into it !We would have our troops back home long time ago with missin accomplished!
I dont care that you will get pay later!I work today and put my life and my family true hell and desreve to get payed today not later!
Those are the real Americans ,who deserve so much more!
How dare you to take it away from them!
than you have huge payraise garbage off one dollar extra!That is a punch in the face!
Somebody mensioned that there is a lot off issues with getting your money for tdy , psc etc!Ooooo yesssss!Absolutely thrue
!And dont foget those games with reinlistment bonuses!JOKE!!!!!
Dear congressmans why dont we switch our possition and than we will talk and decide to trow military in garbage!
The other thing is why dont we hera about it in CNN...
Sad, we are cutting our branch we sitting on..Cuts on education ,and military!!!!Wheer is this country leading!

candycane3482
03-17-2011, 06:42 PM
Fine, If women want to complain that it's your body and you can do to it what you want so be it, I have know problem with that. But answer me this, why in the hell when I wanted to get [B]my[B] vasectomy, the damn doctor my wife had to sign off on it as well, WTF. Doulbe standards! End rant. Now lets get the "F" back on topic.

That was that doctor. I know of guys who went and got a vasectomy secretly. Some women do tell the guy about an abortion and you know what - MOST guys first thing they ask when a girl says "I'm pregnant" is "Is it mine?" and "What are you going to do about it?" Oh and let's not get into the double standard topic...that could be its own thread.

candycane3482
03-17-2011, 06:43 PM
Well the reality is that large amount of servicmembers exist from pay check to pay check...So is the Congress the one who will pay all those late payments fees!
And yes it is time to have obligatory service for all!
When you don't go thrue darkness off deployments ,separation from your family, woory about the deployed service member safety,stress off pcs,and rebuliding your home and family life after any of the events ...
It is fricking easy to treat you like garbage !This is dyscouting what kind goverment we are supporting, we protect???
Why instead taking away from the wallets off those who put their life in any contest off it in huge turblans and danger, we start digging into paychecks off those politcian!
Hey gentalmes why dont you come and visit those military families for nicely televized disscution on the april 1,when they will have no money to take care off the bills!!HMMMMMMMMMM!!!
I wish you good luck with military wifes!They will have no mercy on you !
You are discraice ,and the problem in this nation!
If you let mlitary do their job withuot puting your lasy dirty fingers into it !We would have our troops back home long time ago with missin accomplished!
I dont care that you will get pay later!I work today and put my life and my family true hell and desreve to get payed today not later!
Those are the real Americans ,who deserve so much more!
How dare you to take it away from them!
than you have huge payraise garbage off one dollar extra!That is a punch in the face!
Somebody mensioned that there is a lot off issues with getting your money for tdy , psc etc!Ooooo yesssss!Absolutely thrue
!And dont foget those games with reinlistment bonuses!JOKE!!!!!
Dear congressmans why dont we switch our possition and than we will talk and decide to trow military in garbage!
The other thing is why dont we hera about it in CNN...
Sad, we are cutting our branch we sitting on..Cuts on education ,and military!!!!Wheer is this country leading!

First of all this post hurt my eyes and my head with all the misspellings and fractured sentences. If you want someone to take you seriously, you might want to type this on a Word document and spell check it real quick.

We (military) are not the only ones who are affected if the government shuts down. A lot of people are affected.

candycane3482
03-17-2011, 06:45 PM
First, a few assumptions:
1) pay stops 1 Apr,
2) pay restarts at a later period of time and
3) at some point, military members receive back pay for the period of no pay

If individuals are saying that they will not report for duty post 1 Apr until pay is returned, should they be entitled to any back pay for the period of time in which they had not reported for duty?

Good point. I would say no if it were up to me because if you didn't work why should you get backpaid?

The point is people have to show up for work in the military unless told otherwise, regardless of being paid or not. If someone wants to have even less money when they got backpaid, go ahead and don't report to work.

candycane3482
03-17-2011, 06:50 PM
They never denounce Margret Sangers vision for the master race in PP even to this day. But I am glad you know your history.

Regardless of how it started, today it provides health care to women of all ethnicities and skin colors who otherwise would not receive it. I don't understand how there is a "black genocide" if women aren't forced to get an abortion. The choice is there - people can do it or not.

Maybe if people's parents would just talk to their kids these days, we wouldn't have so many pregnant teenagers.

candycane3482
03-17-2011, 06:52 PM
Okay...I saw the video. She should be fired.

It was also pretty clear she was NOT following PP policy.

No she wasn't and that woman got fired. There was another video I heard and that woman did give the guy the information on treatement for STDs and abortions BUT then she immediately notified police after he left. They aren't going to refuse a girl or woman getting information because how are they to know what is real or what is fake? The first lady was definitely wrong but does that mean we hold ALL of PP accountable? Does that mean ALL PP managers or employees are like that? No.

candycane3482
03-17-2011, 06:54 PM
Being a retired Army :usa2:usa2E-8 who went through the one in the 90's while I was on recruiting duty and currently a civil service employee it is a little concerning but not much. In the 90's even though we were on active duty we basically stayed home because we could not use GOV's, make phone calls or do anything that could incur costs to the government but I think it only lasted a day or 2 and didn't affect our pay. If I was to be furloughed this go around as a civilian, I am confident we would get back paid and I don't think it would last very long anyway. An extended furlogh would create more problems than its worth. Not ALL civil service employees sit around and do nothing.....

But what I've read about the shutdown in 95, 96 is that they passed a bill that specifically stated military would have to get paid. This time, there is nothing to that affect. So if they don't pass the extension for 8 Apr, we won't get a paycheck on the 1st. Yes there are some people who live paycheck to paycheck and they will be hurting BUT then this should make them realize they need to find a way to save money.

Of all the deployments people have had in the last 10 years you can't tell me there's no way to save some money. I understand people go through divorces or spouses who steal the money and leave but that's not everyone. People need to take some financial classes or something and save for emergencies.

Measure Man
03-17-2011, 07:01 PM
First, a few assumptions:
1) pay stops 1 Apr,
2) pay restarts at a later period of time and
3) at some point, military members receive back pay for the period of no pay

If individuals are saying that they will not report for duty post 1 Apr until pay is returned, should they be entitled to any back pay for the period of time in which they had not reported for duty?

Individuals who refuse to report should be entitled to a court martial.

Measure Man
03-17-2011, 07:02 PM
No she wasn't and that woman got fired. There was another video I heard and that woman did give the guy the information on treatement for STDs and abortions BUT then she immediately notified police after he left. They aren't going to refuse a girl or woman getting information because how are they to know what is real or what is fake? The first lady was definitely wrong but does that mean we hold ALL of PP accountable? Does that mean ALL PP managers or employees are like that? No.

I totally agree with giving out medical information. Her willingness to sidestep PP policy and law would be the grounds for firing, IMO.

candycane3482
03-17-2011, 07:32 PM
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/post/2011/03/congress-budget-senate-spending-cuts-tea-party/1

This should be the answer to this question - for now. The government is funded until April 8th so we all get paid on the 1st of April yay! Now will we get paid on the 15th or May 1st? Only time will tell...maybe it's time for some people to think of alternatives right now though...

Variable Wind
03-17-2011, 07:35 PM
No she wasn't and that woman got fired. There was another video I heard and that woman did give the guy the information on treatement for STDs and abortions BUT then she immediately notified police after he left. They aren't going to refuse a girl or woman getting information because how are they to know what is real or what is fake? The first lady was definitely wrong but does that mean we hold ALL of PP accountable? Does that mean ALL PP managers or employees are like that? No.
I dont have a particular opinion one way or another with planned parenthood, but my wife works for a department of social services and she tells me that a lot of managers and employees in much of that entire department are exactly like that.

Kurth70
03-18-2011, 02:23 PM
By individuals, do you mean those in uniform or civilians? I can tell you this, IMO, if anyone still on active duty decides they will not show up for work if they don't think they are going to get paid then they are ALL subject to UCMJ. The military is not a union and they do not have a collective bargaining agreement. They have to report for work! They signed a contract to SERVE not for a guarantee of pay. IF, the military allows this to happen without recourse of UCMJ they will have a mess on their hands and I feel if that happens then no they should not recieve any kind of back pay AND they should lose leave.

Wicked Zombie
03-18-2011, 03:00 PM
By individuals, do you mean those in uniform or civilians? I can tell you this, IMO, if anyone still on active duty decides they will not show up for work if they don't think they are going to get paid then they are ALL subject to UCMJ. The military is not a union and they do not have a collective bargaining agreement. They have to report for work! They signed a contract to SERVE not for a guarantee of pay. IF, the military allows this to happen without recourse of UCMJ they will have a mess on their hands and I feel if that happens then no they should not recieve any kind of back pay AND they should lose leave.

Serve with no guarantee of pay, you are out of your mind. Yes we signed a contract to fulfill our duties, the goverment signed saying they will pay us to do so. You tell me, it's ok for the government to break the contract, but if we do, we are wrong? This is 2011, not the 1900s. Are government needs to get with the program, our society is filled with more free thinkers, and yes they are in the military as well. THis country has evolved, and the old time thinkers needs to relize that and get off the damn high horse!

AJBIGJ
03-18-2011, 04:58 PM
Serve with no guarantee of pay, you are out of your mind. Yes we signed a contract to fulfill our duties, the goverment signed saying they will pay us to do so. You tell me, it's ok for the government to break the contract, but if we do, we are wrong? This is 2011, not the 1900s. Are government needs to get with the program, our society is filled with more free thinkers, and yes they are in the military as well. THis country has evolved, and the old time thinkers needs to relize that and get off the damn high horse!

Depends how you look at it. Most information sources I see do specify that back pay will be provided sometime after the shutdown is over, one day, one month, one year, who knows how it will get parceled out. The point being you would still get it eventually. Unfortunately any contractual obligation on the government's end does not guarantee servicemembers they will get paid precisely when we want it.

The information sources generally do not, however, explain how those servicemembers living month-to-month who don't have a significant amount saved up are going to be covering their monthly expenses (rent, auto payment, etc.) Will the Fed automatically resolve all credit report discrepancies that would inevitably result from an extended shutdown? Doesn't seem likely to me.

Kurth70
03-18-2011, 07:47 PM
You can be upset all you want and think that "free thinkers" have any power in the military all you want also, but, the fact is you are in the military. You fall under UCMJ and give up certain "rights" when you enlist. Im not saying its right I am just saying how it is written. Dont show up for work without permission and attempt to make a "statement as a free thinker or that you have power" will get you nothing but punished. Sure there may be a guarantee of pay, but when and how has always been and always will be at the mercy of the government. Sure they pay every 2 weeks or whatever, but, they don't have to if there is a crisis. Its no different then the government, federal or state sitting on your income tax returns till the last minute. They don't care about the details, just the big picture. IF they do this, which I don't think they will, they will end up giving back pay AND some kind of supplimental compensation for any hardship as well. But, it will be case by case basis and you will have to prove the hardship. Just my opinion on that.

sandsjames
03-21-2011, 09:45 AM
There is no more sick call. Supervisors are only allowed to give out 24 hour passes in the event of illness, otherwise you need the doc's signature.

Bottom line is we still have to report to work no matter what. This is one of the many reasons people should have emergency funds saved.

What a bunch of crap. Emergency funds??? We are suppose to get paid. The military is, and has always been, the one secure job/paycheck in the country. I just can't wait to get called into the First Shirt's office for financial irresponsibility when I can't pay my bills. That'll be a lot of fun.

sandsjames
03-21-2011, 09:50 AM
You do realize that even if you show up at work and do what you describe above, that's failure to obey a lawful order (article 92) that you're proposing? Either way will get you into a bunch of hot water. Look, if you want to buck the system that's your choice. The best, I repeat best, thing that will happen to you is an article 15. You could also be discharged for it and even go to prison.

No one forced you to raise your right hand and volunteer to be in the military. But because you did, there are certain things that you have to do and certain freedoms that you don't have anymore. If you don't want to live that lifestyle, then I suggest returning to civilian life. With the drawdowns and poor economy there are plenty of people who want to stay in and follow the rules.

Holy crap. I'm glad we'll still have people like you coming to work. Without you, who would write us all up for not showing?

sandsjames
03-21-2011, 10:07 AM
Assuming that you aren't flashing back to school days and you actually mean "principle", I would think that an Air Force warrior such as yourself would have the principles to rise above such pettiness and continue to serve your country to the utmost of your abilities - simply because any reasonable person would know that pay may be late, but it will come. You would do well to remember the second Core Value - Service Before Self.

Tell you what. I will do this for my beloved government. Since you say that the pay may be late, but it will come, I will come in to work and sit on my ass for 8 hours and do nothing. Then, once I get the backpay, I will get up and do the "back" work. If it's good enough for the government, it's good enough for me.

sandsjames
03-21-2011, 10:20 AM
Also if someone's sole purpose in the military is a job or job security, then they probably are in the wrong place. If the only way someone stays at work is because of the paycheck - and not the risk of getting in trouble or discharged - then they need someone to talk to them and explain the military is not a job you can just walk away from. Yes I did not join the military for purely patriotic reasons but I realize that it's a lot bigger than "just a job." Also, there isn't going to be much job security in the military over the next few years as they go through this process of letting people go.

Are you serious? When I was a tech school instructor, probably 80% of the students reason was job security or schooling. This may not fit into your "morals", but it's the reality. News Flash! Not everyone is in the military to die for his or her country. They are willing to if necessary, but it's not the primary reason. And without the people who are in it for the paycheck or the schooling, we'd have an Air Force of about 15 thousand, if that. If you don't realize that,which I hope you do because you said you had other reasons as well, then you are living in a completely different world than most. There are a lot of people in the military who do not feel the same patriotism as others. We need them just as we need those who memorized the Airman's Creed the day it came out.

sandsjames
03-21-2011, 10:30 AM
First of all this post hurt my eyes and my head with all the misspellings and fractured sentences. If you want someone to take you seriously, you might want to type this on a Word document and spell check it real quick.

We (military) are not the only ones who are affected if the government shuts down. A lot of people are affected.

Yes, but we are the only ones who are threatened will jail time if we don't show up. Everyone else can get another job.

sandsjames
03-21-2011, 10:37 AM
You can be upset all you want and think that "free thinkers" have any power in the military all you want also, but, the fact is you are in the military. You fall under UCMJ and give up certain "rights" when you enlist. Im not saying its right I am just saying how it is written. Dont show up for work without permission and attempt to make a "statement as a free thinker or that you have power" will get you nothing but punished. Sure there may be a guarantee of pay, but when and how has always been and always will be at the mercy of the government. Sure they pay every 2 weeks or whatever, but, they don't have to if there is a crisis. Its no different then the government, federal or state sitting on your income tax returns till the last minute. They don't care about the details, just the big picture. IF they do this, which I don't think they will, they will end up giving back pay AND some kind of supplimental compensation for any hardship as well. But, it will be case by case basis and you will have to prove the hardship. Just my opinion on that.

But if 20k, 50k, 100k don't show up, then what are they going to do? Half the people will be 5 years past their retirement date before they even get a court marshall date because the system will be so backed up. I swore to defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic. To me, someone not paying me on time for putting my life on the line and then trying to throw me in jail sounds like an enemy to me.

JD2780
03-21-2011, 12:53 PM
Sandjames, all I can say is you've got lots of time on your hands, and you're 100% correct.

CORNELIUSSEON
03-21-2011, 06:44 PM
There is an amazing amound of conjecture here. As of now, the same procedure put into place in the 1990s - anyone involved in National Defense and National Security works as normal, and gets paid as normal - remains in effect. Many of the subsidiary institutions - such as MWR and Civilian Jobs - may indeed see changed schedules, but the Troops will continue as if nothing has changed for them, and there could be substitution for the civilians by assigning Troops in their place for the duration. When the Congress makes up its mind over Go/NoGo on the Budget, we will be better informed on what is going to be taking place than we are now.

candycane3482
03-21-2011, 07:32 PM
What a bunch of crap. Emergency funds??? We are suppose to get paid. The military is, and has always been, the one secure job/paycheck in the country. I just can't wait to get called into the First Shirt's office for financial irresponsibility when I can't pay my bills. That'll be a lot of fun.

I think everyone should have the mindset that no job is secure - even the military. By 2015 people are going to start getting kicked ou as the Army makes cuts anyway. So are the Marines and I hear the AF are making cuts as well. So at any time the military can give you a pink slip honestly.

Why is it so hard for people to just "save for a rainy day?" Why wouldn't you want to know you have a fall back? I really doubt that if people can't pay bills because they didn't get a paycheck that they will get in trouble with their leadership. If they do, they have shitty leadership.

candycane3482
03-21-2011, 07:42 PM
There is an amazing amound of conjecture here. As of now, the same procedure put into place in the 1990s - anyone involved in National Defense and National Security works as normal, and gets paid as normal - remains in effect. Many of the subsidiary institutions - such as MWR and Civilian Jobs - may indeed see changed schedules, but the Troops will continue as if nothing has changed for them, and there could be substitution for the civilians by assigning Troops in their place for the duration. When the Congress makes up its mind over Go/NoGo on the Budget, we will be better informed on what is going to be taking place than we are now.

Actually not true - this was in Army Times today:

"The possibility that troops will not be paid in the event of a government shutdown has raised the stakes for servicemembers and their families in a budgetary standoff that has been simmering since fall. New draft guidance from the Defense Dept indicates that Pentagon leaders are prepared to order troops and essential civilian workers to report to work without pay if there is a lapse in federal funding that forces a government shutdown."

Yes it's not official but that's the closest thing I've seen to confirm that we would, in fact, not be paid but I'm sure we get back pay. Yes that doesn't help people at the time of no pay but again, this is why people need back up plans.

This is different than the 90s shutdown and that's been the common word since it's came up. They did not put into writing how they would pay us in event of a shutdown. I'm good but I know a lot of people don't save money and live paycheck to paycheck.

candycane3482
03-21-2011, 07:47 PM
But if 20k, 50k, 100k don't show up, then what are they going to do? Half the people will be 5 years past their retirement date before they even get a court marshall date because the system will be so backed up. I swore to defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic. To me, someone not paying me on time for putting my life on the line and then trying to throw me in jail sounds like an enemy to me.

Do you really think thousands of people won't show up to work? I highly doubt it and then if it takes the rest of the time to punish them so be it. They could just not let them out until the court martial is done.

Okay so you don't show up for work - then you don't get back pay - sound fair?

candycane3482
03-21-2011, 07:53 PM
Yes, but we are the only ones who are threatened will jail time if we don't show up. Everyone else can get another job.

I'd have to take a look at my contract but I'm pretty sure it doesn't say that if the Army doesn't pay you, you can not show up. The military is a different job than regular jobs.

candycane3482
03-21-2011, 07:55 PM
Are you serious? When I was a tech school instructor, probably 80% of the students reason was job security or schooling. This may not fit into your "morals", but it's the reality. News Flash! Not everyone is in the military to die for his or her country. They are willing to if necessary, but it's not the primary reason. And without the people who are in it for the paycheck or the schooling, we'd have an Air Force of about 15 thousand, if that. If you don't realize that,which I hope you do because you said you had other reasons as well, then you are living in a completely different world than most. There are a lot of people in the military who do not feel the same patriotism as others. We need them just as we need those who memorized the Airman's Creed the day it came out.

Well that's why I didn't join the Air Force - I've seen what is important to some airmen...usually themselves.

The point I was making is the military is not like a regular civilian job. I know some people join for a paycheck but obviously that's not a good idea. Once you sign that dotted line, the military owns you until you ETS or retire.

candycane3482
03-21-2011, 07:58 PM
There is no more sick call. Supervisors are only allowed to give out 24 hour passes in the event of illness, otherwise you need the doc's signature.

Bottom line is we still have to report to work no matter what. This is one of the many reasons people should have emergency funds saved.

I don't know what branch of the military you are in but the Army still has sick call. Plus sick call is at the medical facility and you can only get a sick call slip if the doctor signs off on it. Again, this is the Army. I don't know what other services do. Plus sick call only gets you so far before it's considered malingering.

sandsjames
03-22-2011, 08:45 AM
Do you really think thousands of people won't show up to work? I highly doubt it and then if it takes the rest of the time to punish them so be it. They could just not let them out until the court martial is done.

Okay so you don't show up for work - then you don't get back pay - sound fair?


Yes...that sounds fair

fightercrewchief71
03-23-2011, 06:13 PM
The AFT article details a point of essential and nonessential personnel, this from what i can gather is really speaking to the "Civilians" essential would be first responders and security. The 92% left would fall under the non-essential and would receive furloughs. So with that out of the way here is where I think the military pay would come into question ...

Work= reward, this is the premise that we have al grown up with... everyone that commits to an employer expects a reward of some type. In the most basic case child cleans their room, mows lawn, and cleans garage.. parents reward child buy paying in money( allowance), video games, or a trip to Disneyland.

Like many of you I committed not only myself but my family to the military way of life. I go to work and perform a job, P.T., go TDY or on deployment in exchange for that a reward MUST be given. In our case the US government rewards us with money, "health care", etc..

(** before you read this keep in mind that I believe that slavery was shameful and an embarrassment that it ever happened in the US and I know that we are not slaves, this comment is built to build discussion**)

If we or the child previously mentioned go to work perform our duties and on the 1st or 15th receive nothing for it that leans itself into work which = nothing. this has happened early in our nations history it was called slavery. The plantation owners would force labor and only provide a bare minimum to keep the workers alive so they can return and perform work the next day.

The nations defense is in the US Constitution both in the pre-emblem and section 2. just like everything else in life it is how you read/ interpret based on your biases . you have several from the Left that say there is nothing in the Constitution about a standing military and it should be shut down. Then on the Right you have the ones that say the opposite.

my bottom line is that I took an oath when I enlisted... that oath did not include anything about pay, looking back at my contracts for enlistment that too dose not say anything about pay... I would show up for work but knowing that a "reward “was not waiting for me in performing those duties-- those duties would be sub-par : (

candycane3482
03-23-2011, 07:17 PM
The AFT article details a point of essential and nonessential personnel, this from what i can gather is really speaking to the "Civilians" essential would be first responders and security. The 92% left would fall under the non-essential and would receive furloughs. So with that out of the way here is where I think the military pay would come into question ...

Work= reward, this is the premise that we have al grown up with... everyone that commits to an employer expects a reward of some type. In the most basic case child cleans their room, mows lawn, and cleans garage.. parents reward child buy paying in money( allowance), video games, or a trip to Disneyland.

Like many of you I committed not only myself but my family to the military way of life. I go to work and perform a job, P.T., go TDY or on deployment in exchange for that a reward MUST be given. In our case the US government rewards us with money, "health care", etc..

(** before you read this keep in mind that I believe that slavery was shameful and an embarrassment that it ever happened in the US and I know that we are not slaves, this comment is built to build discussion**)

If we or the child previously mentioned go to work perform our duties and on the 1st or 15th receive nothing for it that leans itself into work which = nothing. this has happened early in our nations history it was called slavery. The plantation owners would force labor and only provide a bare minimum to keep the workers alive so they can return and perform work the next day.

The nations defense is in the US Constitution both in the pre-emblem and section 2. just like everything else in life it is how you read/ interpret based on your biases . you have several from the Left that say there is nothing in the Constitution about a standing military and it should be shut down. Then on the Right you have the ones that say the opposite.

my bottom line is that I took an oath when I enlisted... that oath did not include anything about pay, looking back at my contracts for enlistment that too dose not say anything about pay... I would show up for work but knowing that a "reward “was not waiting for me in performing those duties-- those duties would be sub-par : (

When I was growing up we did our chores because we were told to. We never got an allowance. The only time I started to get a "reward" for doing work was when I got a paper route when I was 10. Even then my dad took the pay we got from that and gave us $6 to spend and put the rest in a savings account. But at home work, like cleaning our rooms or mowing the lawn, we were just expected to do that. Is that child labor? Yeah we tried that one and my dad told us about growing up on the farm - we had it pretty easy compared to those who grow up on a farm. Do they get paid for their work? No not anyone I know.

Yes we got to work expecting a paycheck. But if they don't extend the budget after 8 April and we don't get paid on the 15th or 1 May, it will suck but it's not like we won't ever get reimbursed for that. Plus I bet you alot of units will just send their people home because they can't order supplies or do anything if they don't have money. They'll have CQ or Staff Duty and that's about it stay back. Overseas - that's a different story. It will suck but that's why maybe it will give our government a kick in the ass when they get flooded with angry constituents. It usually takes something drastic before change happens in this country.

TheSoldierwhosaysNi
03-23-2011, 11:07 PM
The best action item from this situation is to support AER. If the politicians fail to support the military who live paycheck to paycheck, there's a good chance AER will.

CORNELIUSSEON
03-24-2011, 06:17 PM
Here is a link to an article that may answer some of the questions everyone seems to have here:

http://militaryadvantage.military.com/2011/03/where-to-turn-if-shutdown-happens/

candycane3482
03-24-2011, 07:36 PM
Here is a link to an article that may answer some of the questions everyone seems to have here:

http://militaryadvantage.military.com/2011/03/where-to-turn-if-shutdown-happens/

Which is a summary of what some people on here have already said basically. Bottom line: There will be options for people. Hopefully it doesn't come to it but we'll see.

armywife197
03-24-2011, 07:56 PM
I find it interesting that nowhere in the article does it mention troops IN combat. Sorry, if hubby was stateside, I'd say, "Sure, go to work, we'll get paid when they grow up." But, you know, I do have misgivings about my husband working for an IOU in a freaking war zone! My husbnad was also serving in '95. I agree with those who say it's a scare tactic, and think it's major B.S. that THIS Congress is dickering around with a budget that should have been passed by the LAST Congress. The President needs to get his testicles out of his wifey's purse (or whoever is holding them for him), slap them on, and start LEADING! He needs to go to Congress and tell them that they will have a bidget NLT April 7. That way, they have an extra 24 hrs to hem & haw, and it still be in by the 8th. Again, I don't think it will happen, but I don't want to find out. If it does, then Obama is definitely a one-termer.

candycane3482
03-24-2011, 08:20 PM
I find it interesting that nowhere in the article does it mention troops IN combat. Sorry, if hubby was stateside, I'd say, "Sure, go to work, we'll get paid when they grow up." But, you know, I do have misgivings about my husband working for an IOU in a freaking war zone! My husbnad was also serving in '95. I agree with those who say it's a scare tactic, and think it's major B.S. that THIS Congress is dickering around with a budget that should have been passed by the LAST Congress. The President needs to get his testicles out of his wifey's purse (or whoever is holding them for him), slap them on, and start LEADING! He needs to go to Congress and tell them that they will have a bidget NLT April 7. That way, they have an extra 24 hrs to hem & haw, and it still be in by the 8th. Again, I don't think it will happen, but I don't want to find out. If it does, then Obama is definitely a one-termer.

It says military won't get paid...even if you're downrange you're still in the military so unfortunately even they won't get paid. It won't be a scare tactic when they can't issue anymore extensions.

There are these three branches of our government so the President can tell them they have to have a budget by x date but I think he already did that...and look where that got him. It's not just the military that is getting dicked around with this budget. Congress can't agree on what to cut and not to cut and therefore that could cause a government shutdown because of no money, which they didn't include anything about paying the military like they did in '95.

Obama won't be a one-timer unless he seriously f*s up...unless a strong Republican candidate comes out of nowhere but all of them are riding the fence right now.

Measure Man
03-24-2011, 08:27 PM
I find it interesting that nowhere in the article does it mention troops IN combat. Sorry, if hubby was stateside, I'd say, "Sure, go to work, we'll get paid when they grow up." But, you know, I do have misgivings about my husband working for an IOU in a freaking war zone!

Making my head spin...I would think it'd be just the opposite. Okay, what goes on in stateside that is so important that he needs to work with out getting paid? But, shoot, in a warzone...okay, pay or no pay, we have an important job to do!

armywife197
03-24-2011, 09:51 PM
It says military won't get paid...even if you're downrange you're still in the military so unfortunately even they won't get paid. It won't be a scare tactic when they can't issue anymore extensions.

There are these three branches of our government so the President can tell them they have to have a budget by x date but I think he already did that...and look where that got him. It's not just the military that is getting dicked around with this budget. Congress can't agree on what to cut and not to cut and therefore that could cause a government shutdown because of no money, which they didn't include anything about paying the military like they did in '95.

Obama won't be a one-timer unless he seriously f*s up...unless a strong Republican candidate comes out of nowhere but all of them are riding the fence right now.

Perhaps I should have clarified that I was referring to the article in the current (3/28/11) issue of Army Times. There is no mention of "downrange" soldiers, but it does say, "... military operations around the world would continue." I feel that they should specifically address "combat troops"... like when they wanted the pay freeze. It also states, "When the government ran out of money in 1995 for about three weeks, military pay continued." As amusing as I found your condescension, I am completely aware of Congress' inability to pass a budget because they are acting like stubborn kids and I also have knowlegde of The Constitution and its division of government. I am fully aware, also, that the military isn't the only ones who might be affected... too bad for the person wrapping my sovenir coffee mug from the Grand Canyon. And I don't even want to know what you consider a "serious f*ck up" is! Bobo the Clown is destroying our country right in front of our eyes. But, perhaps you are one who can't see the forest for the trees.

armywife197
03-24-2011, 09:54 PM
Well, you just keep going with that spinning head! I hope you get a rush. You did NOT understand what I wrote, or perhaps you just chose to interpret a word? Look up "misgivings".

Measure Man
03-24-2011, 10:03 PM
Well, you just keep going with that spinning head! I hope you get a rush. You did NOT understand what I wrote, or perhaps you just chose to interpret a word? Look up "misgivings".

????
Misgiving: a feeling of doubt or suspicion especially concerning a future event

Your quote
Sorry, if hubby was stateside, I'd say, "Sure, go to work, we'll get paid when they grow up." But, you know, I do have doubts about my husband working for an IOU in a freaking war zone!


Still sounds to me like you want him to work stateside, but not work in the war zone...what am I missing?

candycane3482
03-24-2011, 10:06 PM
Perhaps I should have clarified that I was referring to the article in the current (3/28/11) issue of Army Times. There is no mention of "downrange" soldiers, but it does say, "... military operations around the world would continue." I feel that they should specifically address "combat troops"... like when they wanted the pay freeze. It also states, "When the government ran out of money in 1995 for about three weeks, military pay continued." As amusing as I found your condescension, I am completely aware of Congress' inability to pass a budget because they are acting like stubborn kids and I also have knowlegde of The Constitution and its division of government. I am fully aware, also, that the military isn't the only ones who might be affected... too bad for the person wrapping my sovenir coffee mug from the Grand Canyon. And I don't even want to know what you consider a "serious f*ck up" is! Bobo the Clown is destroying our country right in front of our eyes. But, perhaps you are one who can't see the forest for the trees.

Wow okay talk about condescending yourself. Again you state that it says "military operations around the world would continue." What part of that doesn't address "combat troops?" They are conducting military operations. It's pretty simple: If the government shuts down, there is nothing written in - such as in 1995 - that would allow for payment of military personnel. That's not just those of us in uniform either. From what I understand that includes DoD employees as well.

1995 shutdown is not the same - for military - as this one could be. It says in everything I've read that in 1995 it was specifically addressed in whichever resolution that if the government shuts down, military is paid. This time - 2011 - no such luck.

It's not just "the person wrapping your souvenir mug at the Grand Canyon" who could be affected by a lack of budget but I appreciate YOUR condescension.

Obviously Pres. Obama hasn't committed a "serious fuckup" because he hasn't been impeached even though everyone was at Bush's throat about Iraq and Afghanistan even though Congress voted on that but Pres. Obama just passed along a memo that said "Here's what I'm going to do." As much as I kind of like that hard charging Pres. Obama who showed some signs of leadership by making a decision, I don't agree with what he did with Libya.

I'm pretty sure he's not the sole responsibility for the way our country is right now - and this isn't even nearly as bad as some other countries in the world. As you said you have "knowledge of the Constitution and its division of government" then I assume you know that those other two branches are also responsible. Also he did walk into two wars, an economy on the slide and other issues. I'm no fan of his but he is the president whether we like it or not and I wouldnt wish that job on my worst enemy honestly.

armywife197
03-25-2011, 01:17 AM
Still sounds to me like you want him to work stateside, but not work in the war zone...what am I missing?

Well, considering he's missed 1/3 of his 9 y/o daughter's life, yeah, what spouse WOULDN'T prefer her/his soldier stay stateside? I think you overanalyzed my original statement waaaaay too much. I never said one job was more important than another. That is what you chose to infer... incorrectly. I simply made the point that taking an IOU (as a result of petty partisan games) would be a lot easier to digest if he wasn't on the front lines. Perhaps that was unclear in my original post. You want to judge or label me? That's your choice, I'm beyond caring about the opinion of someone who knows NOTHING about me.

As for the pay stoppage, as I stated in my original post, I don't think it will happen : "Defense offcials said the (undated memorandum) is a planning document for what might happen and has not been formally issued." (AT, 3/28/11) I believe they released it to so those of us who do pay attention & don't have a "let someone else do it attitude", WILL contact our Congressmen/women. I've already written mine twice prior to this... so here's to the hat trick!

Measure Man
03-25-2011, 01:31 AM
Well, considering he's missed 1/3 of his 9 y/o daughter's life, yeah, what spouse WOULDN'T prefer her/his soldier stay stateside? I think you overanalyzed my original statement waaaaay too much. I never said one job was more important than another. That is what you chose to infer... incorrectly. I simply made the point that taking an IOU (as a result of petty partisan games) would be a lot easier to digest if he wasn't on the front lines. Perhaps that was unclear in my original post.

Okay, that makes more sense...yes, that point was unclear originally.


You want to judge or label me? That's your choice, I'm beyond caring about the opinion of someone who knows NOTHING about me.

I don't know what you are talking about...I"m not judging nor labeling you...merely asked for some clarification because I did not understand your logic. Got it now.


As for the pay stoppage, as I stated in my original post, I don't think it will happen : "Defense offcials said the (undated memorandum) is a planning document for what might happen and has not been formally issued." (AT, 3/28/11) I believe they released it to so those of us who do pay attention & don't have a "let someone else do it attitude", WILL contact our Congressmen/women. I've already written mine twice prior to this... so here's to the hat trick!

I stated early too that I don't see it EVER happening. If the govt. really did come to a shut-down, you can bet there would be an 11th hour bill to fund military troops, if nothing else.

JD2780
03-25-2011, 03:11 AM
Okay, that makes more sense...yes, that point was unclear originally.



I don't know what you are talking about...I"m not judging nor labeling you...merely asked for some clarification because I did not understand your logic. Got it now.



I stated early too that I don't see it EVER happening. If the govt. really did come to a shut-down, you can bet there would be an 11th hour bill to fund military troops, if nothing else.

Dont try to understand her stand her. You're obviously just some a$$hole that crawls around the threads looking to get on angry spouses about thier statements. You're a horrible horrible man. Yea I judged you without know you!!!

I was reading the same stuff you did, and i was coming to the same conclusions.

Lean6
03-28-2011, 08:08 PM
I half expect a coordinated substantial hike in gas prices to cooncide with servicemembers trying to fuel up on pocket change to get to work. I think we defer to the "essential personnel" rule and otherwise telecommute. Heck, i've got a government laptop and a Blackberry...what am I doing here now?! :heh

On a serious note, my bills are sent automatically from my bank in some cases a week in advance if through snail mail. April 8th is on a Friday...and so is the 15th; If I don't hear anything by the 3rd, i'm going to move some money. :tsk

I wonder if Navy Relief is prepared to loan our kids some of that money that I pumped into them for 2 decades. Sure we don't make seeking Navy Relief an easy or dignified process during our normal individual sailors' hard times, but this should be different. Command Financial Counselors will be standing by?

armywife197
03-30-2011, 02:59 AM
I stated early too that I don't see it EVER happening. If the govt. really did come to a shut-down, you can bet there would be an 11th hour bill to fund military troops, if nothing else.

You hit the nail on the head. Otherwise, it would be political suicide & the folks in DC have proven that the only thing they care about is re-election.

candycane3482
03-30-2011, 10:59 PM
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/03/30/6376058-congressional-pay-during-a-shutdown-still-looks-likely

Oh HELL to the no! This is the kicker: "There are a variety of reasons, but one that is mentioned constantly is that many newer members of Congress quit their jobs to run for office. Quite frankly, they say they need the money."

Well sorry - then make sure the military gets paid too. What about that brand new private who makes most likely far less than that freshman Congressman? What about the servicemembers who are in the same boat with loans, making payments, payments set up by allottments? I still say people should start to save but if Congress gets paid in a shutdown we better get paid too!!

oldman
03-31-2011, 02:48 PM
Wonder if it would be a breach of contract if the soliders were not paid?

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-31-2011, 02:53 PM
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/03/30/6376058-congressional-pay-during-a-shutdown-still-looks-likely

Oh HELL to the no! This is the kicker: "There are a variety of reasons, but one that is mentioned constantly is that many newer members of Congress quit their jobs to run for office. Quite frankly, they say they need the money."

Well sorry - then make sure the military gets paid too. What about that brand new private who makes most likely far less than that freshman Congressman? What about the servicemembers who are in the same boat with loans, making payments, payments set up by allottments? I still say people should start to save but if Congress gets paid in a shutdown we better get paid too!!
Fresh face pvt = $25k/year

Freshman congress person = $175k/year.

Yeah, cause getting a week off every three weeks in DC deserves that much money over Pvt Schmitty in Afgan getting shot at everyday.

AJBIGJ
03-31-2011, 03:02 PM
Wonder if it would be a breach of contract if the soliders were not paid?

Keep in mind, a delay in receipt of pay is not the same thing as simply being not paid. Anyone who's waited on DFAS for any type of backpay ever can tell you that you don't necessarily get paid when it's convenient for you. There is no contractual obligations on the government's side to pay you on the 1st and 15th if a shutdown of the government occurs.

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-31-2011, 03:07 PM
Keep in mind, a delay in receipt of pay is not the same thing as simply being not paid. Anyone who's waited on DFAS for any type of backpay ever can tell you that you don't necessarily get paid when it's convenient for you. There is no contractual obligations on the government's side to pay you on the 1st and 15th if a shutdown of the government occurs.
No, just an OI or AFI maybe, and who really needs/follows those?

AJBIGJ
03-31-2011, 03:11 PM
No, just an OI or AFI maybe, and who really needs/follows those?

From my end I'd really like to be paid on time, I have a car payment to make on the 17th and a few other things that it'd be very handy to get that regular income. DFAS has stated it flat out though, no promises, no guarantees. I hope people are getting decent tax returns this go-around because it may be their financial buffer to sustain for the duration.

CORNELIUSSEON
03-31-2011, 04:14 PM
From my end I'd really like to be paid on time, I have a car payment to make on the 17th and a few other things that it'd be very handy to get that regular income. DFAS has stated it flat out though, no promises, no guarantees. I hope people are getting decent tax returns this go-around because it may be their financial buffer to sustain for the duration.

This is why quality accountants will tell you that we all need to maintain an Emergency Fund that will equal 8 Months of recurring expenses, such as Rent, Car Payments, Food, etc.

AJBIGJ
03-31-2011, 06:15 PM
This is why quality accountants will tell you that we all need to maintain an Emergency Fund that will equal 8 Months of recurring expenses, such as Rent, Car Payments, Food, etc.

Agreed, but not entirely realistic to expect everyone in the military to have that sort of buffer in place, unless they've changed that training our young servicemembers received at the earliest stages of their enlistment/officer training, everyone gets told basically this very thing on more than one occasion. Yet not a lot of people actually do this. So now is when everyone gets to really learn why that is recommended and choose to learn from/ignore this lesson as applicable.

imported_WILDJOKER5
03-31-2011, 06:19 PM
Agreed, but not entirely realistic to expect everyone in the military to have that sort of buffer in place, unless they've changed that training our young servicemembers received at the earliest stages of their enlistment/officer training, everyone gets told basically this very thing on more than one occasion. Yet not a lot of people actually do this. So now is when everyone gets to really learn why that is recommended and choose to learn from/ignore this lesson as applicable.

And it is really an American society problem. With that much in savings, the country could have survived the gas prices in 2008, or when they lost their job, they could have stayed in their home. Too many Americans think they have a job and everything is going to be good, so they never save for when life turns bad.

Measure Man
03-31-2011, 06:20 PM
Agreed, but not entirely realistic to expect everyone in the military to have that sort of buffer in place, unless they've changed that training our young servicemembers received at the earliest stages of their enlistment/officer training, everyone gets told basically this very thing on more than one occasion. Yet not a lot of people actually do this. So now is when everyone gets to really learn why that is recommended and choose to learn from/ignore this lesson as applicable.

...but should the MILITARY learn the lesson? Should we begin to see financial security as a readiness isssue?

We have PT standards...why not Financial standards? If you don't have $10K in the bank, we pull 10% of your pay into an interest bearing account until you do...

While it might suck at first...after about 3 years everyone in the military would have $10K in emergency funds...until retirement, then they are free to have at it.

I can't think of a downside here, can you?