PDA

View Full Version : Shrike, Bruwin, Tak, other assorted SNCO types, need some advice here



imported_CLSE
01-20-2011, 12:39 AM
I went to talk with a 1st Sgt here - there are like two on the entire base because of the way it's organized, the individual squadrons don't have their own.

Anyhow, this was out of sheer frsutration with this f'ing PT business and the resulting mess that it creates for me on multiple levels.

I mention to the shirt that I got a referral on my EPR, but that the close-out should have been last May and I passed my PT test in January.

According to the shirt, that means that I should not have gotten a referral because the last PT test result (pass/fail) before the close-out is what counts on the EPR. This is contrary to what the Airman at the EPR desk told me, but I'm inclined to listen to the shirt.

So, my EPR has been held up for various reasons (convoluted chain of command, a work super and different, civilian rating super, etc, etc), the rating period wasn't extended (to my knowledge), it's just taken a long time to get everything signed, etc.

During a little chat with my commander last summer after I failed the test with the new standards, he made a comment about how he noticed that I had been "grandfathered" and didn't get a referral on my EPR for the failure.

A couple of weeks later, I get a call from the XO saying I need to sign something on my EPR. Lo and behold, a referral has been added. My initial suspicion was that my commander pushed the issue, but after talking to the Airman at MPF, I was led to believe that any failure during the rating period got you one.

However, according to the shirt, no, that should not have been the case since the reporting period should have already closed.

I have also been having the re-enlistment issues with this commander, he extended me last year instead of re-enlisting me even though I passed the test.

This year, I'm on a waiver and the cause of the problems that I had been having have been identified, but he says that even if I pass the test on the waiver (doing the walk), he'll only extend me, he's not going to re-enlist me until I pass the test doing the run.

When I'll be able to take the test doing the run is anybody's guess because I have to do an LOD that has to go all the way up through Reserve Command before I can get the Air Force to pay for the treatment and I'm not using my personal leave, insurance, gas and out-of-pocket money to pay for it in the mean time (the doctor is three hours away).

During our little chat last summer, he made some comments about a couple of things, one of which was "this is not a civilian job, we have to meet standards", in reference to me being a reservist and another one about how I look healthy, but I'm obviously not healthy, based on the fact that I failed by 3 points.

So, basically, it's become pretty obvious that the guy has some issue with me and that he is deliberately doing things to make life more difficult that it needs to be.

I don't think the guy is out to get me personally or anything, but I don't know if he has an issue with reservists, looks at it as tough love or if he's just so ate-up about the PT program or trying to look like he is to try and look good.

The shirt here says pass my next test, which I fully intend to do, and then push for re-enlistment and a command directed-EPR to start burying the referral, but I don't think it's going to be that easy.

Any thoughts on any options that I might have? This stuff is burning me out and I'm tired of it, the bulls**t excuses and blank looks from people claiming that nobody can do anything when I know damn well there a people who can.

Thanks guys.

VFFSSGT
01-20-2011, 12:51 AM
I am not a SNCO, but my first stop would be to consult with Legal and/or ADC. My next stop would be to consult with the IG, because it sounds like you are being 'punished' for having a legitimate medical issue, which I do believe the AFI specifically prohibits.

BRUWIN
01-20-2011, 01:50 AM
Was the close out date of the referral EPR before or after you failed the PT test?

RetSNCO
01-20-2011, 02:03 AM
It is true, the latest PT counts in terms of meet/does not meet. But they can still mark you down if you fail 1 during the year. Now, consider that a PT test can count even if outside the reporting period. So if you pass in Jan & the EPR closes in May, you are good. But if you then fail in July & your EPR is held in limbo (for whatever reason), they can count this new test as long as the report is still open. I know, it is really BS. They put this rule in to prevent people from having to test just because an EPR was due for things like CRO. This way, they could use an older test, outside the rating period. But, they can also use one after closeout if the report is not final. With the new 6 month cycle, this should be a moot point.

With all that said, it would be lame for a Commander to do that, especially if we are talking a few months (vice a week or two). Referral process is very long and you should talk with your supervisor on how that EPR went down like that. If it became a referral, you have a lot of spineless people in your chain. You probably are stuck trying to appeal the report, but it will be tough. You need hard facts on your side.

RetSNCO
01-20-2011, 02:04 AM
It is true, the latest PT counts in terms of meet/does not meet. But they can still mark you down if you fail 1 during the year. Now, consider that a PT test can count even if outside the reporting period. So if you pass in Jan & the EPR closes in May, you are good. But if you then fail in July & your EPR is held in limbo (for whatever reason), they can count this new test as long as the report is still open. I know, it is really BS. They put this rule in to prevent people from having to test just because an EPR was due for things like CRO. This way, they could use an older test, outside the rating period. But, they can also use one after closeout if the report is not final. With the new 6 month cycle, this should be a moot point.

With all that said, it would be lame for a Commander to do that, especially if we are talking a few months (vice a week or two). Referral process is very long and you should talk with your supervisor on how that EPR went down like that. If it became a referral, you have a lot of spineless people in your chain. You probably are stuck trying to appeal the report, but it will be tough. You need hard facts on your side.

technomage1
01-20-2011, 02:15 AM
Different bases and units are applying the PT standard differently. Some units state that if you fail at any time, even if you are showing passing at the EPR closeout, then it's a referral EPR. Some are allowing those who fail and then subsequently pass to get a 5. The AFI is not clear either way.

However, if the reporting period had already ended and you failed your test - provided you had not failed at any time during that period - that should not have been a referral EPR by any definition. Maybe the next EPR could be, but not that one. If that is the case, then I would challenge the EPR. Instructions and the form is via vMPF.

The shirt cannot refuse to let you re-enlist. Only the commander can. And then, they should be using the guidance in AFI 36-2905, attachment 19. While it's not binding, I can't imagine that any cc would fall outside of them without consulting with legal first.

I would contact your ADC about the matter.

BRUWIN
01-20-2011, 02:39 AM
It is true, the latest PT counts in terms of meet/does not meet. But they can still mark you down if you fail 1 during the year. Now, consider that a PT test can count even if outside the reporting period. So if you pass in Jan & the EPR closes in May, you are good. But if you then fail in July & your EPR is held in limbo (for whatever reason), they can count this new test as long as the report is still open. I know, it is really BS. They put this rule in to prevent people from having to test just because an EPR was due for things like CRO. This way, they could use an older test, outside the rating period. But, they can also use one after closeout if the report is not final. With the new 6 month cycle, this should be a moot point.



It's not a moot point because some people (myself included) don't test for 12 months. I never heard of anyone else doing this....if they are they need to change the closeout date to within the period the test was acccomplished. There are circumstances were a significant incident may have occurred that could warrant a CC documenting it on an EPR that has just passed the closeout date. PT has never been one of those issues anywhere I've ever been.

RetSNCO
01-20-2011, 02:45 AM
It's not a moot point because some people (myself included) don't test for 12 months. I never heard of anyone else doing this....if they are they need to change the closeout date to within the period the test was acccomplished. There are circumstances were a significant incident may have occurred that could warrant a CC documenting it on an EPR that has just passed the closeout date. PT has never been one of those issues anywhere I've ever been.

Yeah, I forgot some people test once a year, so it is not a moot point. PT can be included, at least it was part of the implementation guidance for the new form, outside the reporting period. Of course, it is not in the AFI because they haven't gotten around to updating that document since 2006. Guess there haven't been many changes. But, I have seen Commanders use PT tests outside the reporting period. There are many reasons. Since the guidance said the latest test did not have to occur in the rating period, that is open game.

takthekak
01-20-2011, 02:59 AM
Alright my take...I am a little confused on facts, they would help.
You are active or reserve?
Your EPR date was supposed to close out awhile ago and is still not signed?
You failed after the closeout and had a pass before closeout?
You have not sense past the test and if not, why not?
Locally we just got a guy approved for an EPR extension, it took a favor on high
and I will not get into that...Also, the guy with a failure is in his reenlistment window
and we checked with MPF and that does not preclude reenlistment, so he is presses
ASAP with reenlistment...Not sure it's his call to only extend, but with CC power
who knows, double check with reenlistments and what CCs can legally do.
If you are reserve, what does a referral stop you from? promotion? etc???
When will this epr go for signature and what level will it close at, Sq/Gp/Wg...
do you have a Chief, becuase they seem to sometimes have ways to skin a cat.
Did any other people fail that didn't have your situation happen, or any hookups?
I will answer more when I get a better picture of the situation...I will say, with
a bad commander, life and options can suck. Stay positive!

Last question: did you get documented feedback for your EPR; initial and midterm?
if you get your facts together and present them to your CC after having removed
your emotion, perhaps he will hear you out. Or go in with someone of higher rank
than you who believes in you.

Kirtland_Red_Storm
01-20-2011, 03:06 AM
If I was you I would ask SENDBILLMONEY, he seems to be up on these things, and my fall back would be seek JAG opinion because Correction to Records is a bitch.

takthekak
01-20-2011, 03:23 AM
Fitness. AFI 36-2406, paragraph 3.7.5. allows commanders to request EPR closeout extensions of up to 59 days to ensure resolution of any administrative or other significant issues. Approved extensions should be documented by placing the following statement in feedback area in Section V, “Close out date was extended IAW AFI 36-2406, para. 3.7.5.” Other than for fitness testing, extensions are granted only to allow evaluators to document negative behavior, i.e. court-martial actions, investigations, etc. Extensions are not granted to document awards or achievements. Unit commanders may request an extension when Airmen are required to fitness test immediately preceding the EPR closeout date and fails to meet fitness standards. This option can be used to re-test the Airman at the 43d day after scoring “Poor” on the fitness assessment. NOTE: This is the earliest period an Airman can re-test after scoring “Poor” on the fitness assessment test. Use the procedures outlined AFI 36-2406, paragraph 3.7.5. to obtain approval. Extensions beyond this period are not allowed. Extension requests should contain, at a minimum, the ratee's fitness test history (scores/dates) from the portal and significant justification. Please provide justification as to why this case is unique (i.e. profiles, deployments, etc.). Specific medical information is not necessary, but profile limitations are required. If the member does not have a documented profile, IAW AFI 10-248, they are eligible to test. Extensions are not approved solely because one is requested; justification is required. If there were more than 42 days from the failure date to the close out date, include clarification as to why the member did not retest prior to the close out date.

Kirtland_Red_Storm
01-20-2011, 03:59 AM
If I was you I would ask SENDBILLMONEY, he seems to be up on these things, and my fall back would be seek JAG opinion because Correction to Records is a bitch.

imported_BRAVO10000
01-20-2011, 05:09 AM
I went to talk with a 1st Sgt here - there are like two on the entire base because of the way it's organized, the individual squadrons don't have their own.

Anyhow, this was out of sheer frsutration with this f'ing PT business and the resulting mess that it creates for me on multiple levels.

I mention to the shirt that I got a referral on my EPR, but that the close-out should have been last May and I passed my PT test in January.

According to the shirt, that means that I should not have gotten a referral because the last PT test result (pass/fail) before the close-out is what counts on the EPR. This is contrary to what the Airman at the EPR desk told me, but I'm inclined to listen to the shirt.

So, my EPR has been held up for various reasons (convoluted chain of command, a work super and different, civilian rating super, etc, etc), the rating period wasn't extended (to my knowledge), it's just taken a long time to get everything signed, etc.

During a little chat with my commander last summer after I failed the test with the new standards, he made a comment about how he noticed that I had been "grandfathered" and didn't get a referral on my EPR for the failure.

A couple of weeks later, I get a call from the XO saying I need to sign something on my EPR. Lo and behold, a referral has been added. My initial suspicion was that my commander pushed the issue, but after talking to the Airman at MPF, I was led to believe that any failure during the rating period got you one.

However, according to the shirt, no, that should not have been the case since the reporting period should have already closed.

I have also been having the re-enlistment issues with this commander, he extended me last year instead of re-enlisting me even though I passed the test.

This year, I'm on a waiver and the cause of the problems that I had been having have been identified, but he says that even if I pass the test on the waiver (doing the walk), he'll only extend me, he's not going to re-enlist me until I pass the test doing the run.

When I'll be able to take the test doing the run is anybody's guess because I have to do an LOD that has to go all the way up through Reserve Command before I can get the Air Force to pay for the treatment and I'm not using my personal leave, insurance, gas and out-of-pocket money to pay for it in the mean time (the doctor is three hours away).

During our little chat last summer, he made some comments about a couple of things, one of which was "this is not a civilian job, we have to meet standards", in reference to me being a reservist and another one about how I look healthy, but I'm obviously not healthy, based on the fact that I failed by 3 points.

So, basically, it's become pretty obvious that the guy has some issue with me and that he is deliberately doing things to make life more difficult that it needs to be.

I don't think the guy is out to get me personally or anything, but I don't know if he has an issue with reservists, looks at it as tough love or if he's just so ate-up about the PT program or trying to look like he is to try and look good.

The shirt here says pass my next test, which I fully intend to do, and then push for re-enlistment and a command directed-EPR to start burying the referral, but I don't think it's going to be that easy.

Any thoughts on any options that I might have? This stuff is burning me out and I'm tired of it, the bulls**t excuses and blank looks from people claiming that nobody can do anything when I know damn well there a people who can.

Thanks guys.

There are a couple of things missing here that are important.

When you were called to sig this after-the-fact referral EPR...were you provided an opportunity to rebut? You should have been given a memorandum with the referral EPR that says so.


"Your signature on this memo merely acknowledges that a referral report has been rendered; it does not imply acceptance of or agreement with the ratings or comments on the report. Once signed, you are entitled to a copy of this memo. You may submit comments to rebut the report. Send your comments to reach (name and address of next evaluator) not later than 10 calendar days (30 for non-EAD members) from the date you receive this memo" ~AFI 36-2905 Chap 3.13 (Page 43).


Regardless - see MPFM 07-44, which states in Table 3.2, Item #16:



"If the ratee is meeting the standard, mark the appropriate box and leave the comment area blank".

Note 9.d to this table clarifies by stating:


"Documentation of fitness will be based on the most recent (current) fitness test, including those preceding the start date of the EPR".

http://www.afwriting.com/epr-opr/MPFM_07-44_EPR_11_Jul_07.doc



That seems pretty straightforward to me. :-)

RetSNCO
01-20-2011, 05:18 AM
There are a couple of things missing here that are important.

When you were called to sig this after-the-fact referral EPR...were you provided an opportunity to rebut? You should have been given a memorandum with the referral EPR that says so.




Regardless - see MPFM 07-44, which states in Table 3.2, Item #16:




Note 9.d to this table clarifies by stating:



That seems pretty straightforward to me. :-)

Bravo, that is what I was alluding to earlier, but probably said it wrong. It says, "Documentation of fitness will be based on the most recent (current) fitness test, including those preceding the start date of the EPR."

What it doesn't say is excluding an assessment after the closeout. So, an interpretation is that if the EPR is late for closeout (but not necessarily given a closeout extension), the latest PT test can be used to mark the block even if it is later than closeout because it is the most recent when signing. I have seen Commanders/Shirts go with this philosophy. Now, can you appeal that? Dunno, let us know if you do. I'm curious. I think it is wrong to do that, but there will be a 100 people who say he deserves the referral.

Like I said earlier, the problem is they have an MFM to implement the new EPR w/PT, but they haven't updated the AFI. This all started in 2007 and still no AFI. The AFI is going to give more details and clarify these types of situations. Ok, in theory anyway.

CrustySMSgt
01-20-2011, 05:37 AM
Lots of great question... the original post had a lot of holes and confusion to me as well.

I've also seen a lot of crazy interpretations/lack of info. My wife is stationed at a different base, and despite me trying to feed her good info from what I KNOW, half the stuff she takes to her Chief & CC, they tell her, "that isn't the way it works" or "we don't do it that way here." We're talking straight out of the AFI, black & white stuf... makes me CRAZY!!!

CLSE,
Find someone you trust, in person, or on the board, give them the facts, and get an educated opinion. Amn Snuffy at the MPF ISN'T an informed source! If something isn't right, gather your facts/documentation, bring it to your supervisor and make them take it up the chain... and if they refuse, let them know you're going over their head. Arming yourself with FACTS makes you very powerful, because most of the time, whoever you are talking to doesn't REALLY know what the AFI says. But the unfortunate reality is, the CC does carry a lot of power, and can "interpret" some things to do as they please, so be sure your right, and present your case unemotionally and proffesionally, and most times you'll come out on top.

imported_BRAVO10000
01-20-2011, 06:22 AM
Bravo, that is what I was alluding to earlier, but probably said it wrong. It says, "Documentation of fitness will be based on the most recent (current) fitness test, including those preceding the start date of the EPR."

What it doesn't say is excluding an assessment after the closeout. So, an interpretation is that if the EPR is late for closeout (but not necessarily given a closeout extension), the latest PT test can be used to mark the block even if it is later than closeout because it is the most recent when signing. I have seen Commanders/Shirts go with this philosophy. Now, can you appeal that? Dunno, let us know if you do. I'm curious. I think it is wrong to do that, but there will be a 100 people who say he deserves the referral.

Like I said earlier, the problem is they have an MFM to implement the new EPR w/PT, but they haven't updated the AFI. This all started in 2007 and still no AFI. The AFI is going to give more details and clarify these types of situations. Ok, in theory anyway.

No, it's there in 36-2406.




3.7. Inappropriate Evaluator Considerations and Comments.

Certain items are inappropriate for consideration in the performance evaluation process and may not be commented upon on any OES/EES form. Except as authorized in the following paragraphs, do not consider, refer to, or include comments regarding:


3.7.2. Duty history or performance outside the current reporting period on OPRs/EPRs, except as permitted by paragraphs



3.7.6. and 3.7.7. Since performance in past jobs is relevant, raters may include it on PRFs.



3.7.6. Prior events.




3.7.7. Conduct based on unreliable information.





A late EPR still has a closeout date, and the inclusive perios doesn't coincide with the date that it was signed. It coincides with the rating period found on the shell. You couldn't sign an EPR late to allow the results of an award to come out.


You can, in cases, include events that were PRIOR to the rating period if they were significant and not included in the last evaluation.

Outside looking in - this one looks like a home run. The ADC is your next stop.

DHarris75
01-20-2011, 07:57 AM
No, it's there in 36-2406.





A late EPR still has a closeout date, and the inclusive perios doesn't coincide with the date that it was signed. It coincides with the rating period found on the shell. You couldn't sign an EPR late to allow the results of an award to come out.


You can, in cases, include events that were PRIOR to the rating period if they were significant and not included in the last evaluation.

Outside looking in - this one looks like a home run. The ADC is your next stop.


BRAVO - that is how I read it also.

I understand the point of the other interpretation - I just don't think it is correct. The intent of the AFIs seem clear to me. Things that happened in the past are just that - in the past. So if you cannot document it on the "current" EPR, then it disappears forever. That is why you can document significant events that happened before the reporting period...because there is no other instrument to then document that significant event.

But, when talking about current items. I think the closeout date is meant (my interpretation and a common sense read on the intent of the AFI - meaning taking everything into context)...as the cutoff date.

Now, if you extend the EPR, things change. While the reporting period doesn't actually change (I believe this is correct - if it is not, please correct me) with an extension - the note in the comments block lets the reader know that there were events that are documented that occured after the closeout date that were significant enough to extend the EPR. If PT falls into that category of significant events (as dictated by the future AFI) - than that is the CCs avenue to pursue that COA.

But to just hold an EPR in limbo without an official extension, and then use events post closeout on the report, seems to me like dirty pool that goes against the intent of the AFI...and goes around the extension process as outlined in the AFIs.

I agree with above advice - ADC.

imported_BRAVO10000
01-20-2011, 11:04 AM
BRAVO - that is how I read it also.

I understand the point of the other interpretation - I just don't think it is correct. The intent of the AFIs seem clear to me. Things that happened in the past are just that - in the past. So if you cannot document it on the "current" EPR, then it disappears forever. That is why you can document significant events that happened before the reporting period...because there is no other instrument to then document that significant event.

But, when talking about current items. I think the closeout date is meant (my interpretation and a common sense read on the intent of the AFI - meaning taking everything into context)...as the cutoff date.

Now, if you extend the EPR, things change. While the reporting period doesn't actually change (I believe this is correct - if it is not, please correct me) with an extension - the note in the comments block lets the reader know that there were events that are documented that occured after the closeout date that were significant enough to extend the EPR. If PT falls into that category of significant events (as dictated by the future AFI) - than that is the CCs avenue to pursue that COA.

But to just hold an EPR in limbo without an official extension, and then use events post closeout on the report, seems to me like dirty pool that goes against the intent of the AFI...and goes around the extension process as outlined in the AFIs.

I agree with above advice - ADC.

Bingo. If it includes events after the closeout, and it has already "gone live"...contest it. By my assessment, it will be headed to File 13.

Pullinteeth
01-20-2011, 12:28 PM
Two things; you can fight the EPR if you wish. It seems you might have a leg to stand on. Your biggest problem is that there is no AFI which may actually help you. It is kind of Enlisted promotions for Reservists (there have been absolutely no rules on them for over a year now). With that said, as a Reservist, your EPRs don't count as much as they would if you were ADAF. My question is what is your status? Are you an AGR? ART? IMA? If you are an IMA, the commander isn't the one who decides if you can re-enlist or not. If you are an AGR, you should have some Reserve chain of command somewhere shouldn't you? ART...well not sure about the rules with the Civ part of those positions so...

Shrike
01-20-2011, 01:59 PM
Some of the others already said it: get all of your supporting paperwork together and head to the ADC.

imported_Sgt HULK
01-20-2011, 02:30 PM
Also get with PTGOD and ask about help with the test. We've all been taking this text for about 6 yrs now so it should be much of a shock

I had to make a fun

Bobby Dukes
01-20-2011, 02:35 PM
One other thing: not knowing the nature of the LOD thing you mentioned. But if you are TRICARE Prime and are referred for treatment at a facility outside your area, you are authorized reimbursement. There is a min/max distance which applies but I believe the ROT to be 1 hr drive or 60 miles. There is a medical TDY office on base which can help you with this.

If not, then contact this person:

JANET BRYANT, GS-12, PAHM
Customer Service Representative
TRO South - Biloxi
Hewes Hall, Rm 142
Keesler AFB MS 39534
Ph: (228) 376-4372
Fax: ( 228) 377-7870

She will explain the max payout as well as the entire process. Additionally for anyone active duty who has a dependent spouse or child which requires out of area treatment, you are entitled to reimbursement up to max allowable for the area so long as you are listed as a non-medical attendant on the travel orders. Good to know because my wife had heart surgery in Alabama and I had over 1300 in lodging and travel expenses and recieved 1500 in reimbursement 4 weeks after I filed.

imported_CLSE
01-20-2011, 04:59 PM
First off, thanks for all the responses.

To answers for some of the questions.

I am a reservist, an IMA to be specific, so my rating periods are two years instead of one.

I was in the Guard before I came to this unit, so no EPRs since I was on active duty and my rating period (should have) started when I in-processed here in May of 2008.

I had failures in the time I was here (we didn't take this test in the Guard, so no previous failures there), but I tested last January and passed, so that should have been the last test before my rating period closed.

The shirt here mentioned what some of you did, that "significant events" can be added after the close-out, in his opininion that includes things like DUIs and such, not PT test failures. He said what some of you said, though, that a commander can push the issue if he/she wants to.

I am going to do some checking into what they had my close-out date as and whether any extension was added or whether the referral got added because my EPR wasn't done yet.

I do know that my EPR was signed by me and the commander of the unit that I work for (not the unit that I'm assigned to, which is the one giving me the problems), then it had to be sent back to him to add the referral.

I had the 10 day period to add comments, but the ADC said at the time that there really wasn't anything I could add that would make any differene since it was for a PT test failure.

Also, the ADC here said that any failure during the reporting period can result in a referral, but again, the shirt here is insisting that's not the case.


In terms of the reason for the long time to close out my EPR -

I came here to work at one unit, but the billet actually belongs to another unit. After I had been here a while, somebody apparently figured out that the commander of the unit I was working for couldn't be my rater, so they started working to get it changed.

Since then, the commander of the unit I work for PCS'd and started a CRO that took a while to get completed and make it's way back.

The unit that I'm assigned to didn't really have me on the books other than as existing as an IMA, i.e, they didn't have me assigned to anyone here. So, I ended up with a civilian supervisor/rater, a civilian squadron director (the last military commander PCS'd and hasn't been replaced), making the Group commander the next in line militarily and the one who signs my EPRs, re-enlistments, etc.

They were getting that figured out at the same time that my EPR needed to be done.


In July, I had just signed my EPR, so it was waiting for the commander here to sign it and that's when I failed the PT test again and he made the comment about me being grandfathered in regards to the referral.


As to other people to talk here, the organization here is bizarre. We have 1st Sgts only at the Wing level, so there are two on the entire base that I know of. As to Chiefs, I need to check some more, there are maintenance, flying and other units on base, so I suspect there have to be more chiefs floating around, but I need to check into it.


Pullinteeth, the commander of the unit that I'm assigned to is the one that does my re-enlistment, etc, that's from the BIMAA, reserve managers, etc. We have a Chief IMA in the Group, but I haven't been able to get ahold of him for six months (I've sent e-mails, left voice messages, he's even been here and gone).

So, I don't know who else would do it. To complicate matters, my command is cutting all of the Cat-B Overage (which includes mine) and Cat-E billets as excess.

So, now I may have to go and find another unit to pick me up (somebody had asked about the effects of the referral, that's one thing that will be more difficult).


I'm going to talk with our new DO, but the Group is so short-manned on military that getting face time with him is difficult. I am one of (now) three enlisted guys (AD and Reserve) in the entire group and I outrank both of them, so not much help there.

I gotta run, but hopefully that answers some of the questions.

Thanks again.

RetSNCO
01-20-2011, 05:29 PM
Bravo, completely see the point on the AFI. But as I said, the AFI is from 2005 and recertified in Feb 2007. The MFM is from July 2007 when they instituted the PT portion of the EPR. The AFI as written doesn't include any of the rules for the PT program. The MFM is currently the only guidance. It is sad, since we are talking 4 years now. So, a Commander has every right to go the MFM since it is dated later than the AFI and serves as implementing instructions. Until they update the AFI, the MFM is the guidance. And that statement, "Documentation of fitness will be based on the most recent (current) fitness test, including those preceding the start date of the EPR," becomes the rule of law. Since it doesn't specifically exclude tests after closeout, you go back to "most recent fitness test."

Obviously it is in your best interest to appeal. I am not sure how that would hold up on the board of corrections. I am actually quite curious. I think they should rule in favor of the Airmen based solely on the fact that such an important AFI has not been updated in 4 years even though a significant portion of it (EPR) is completely changed.

CrustySMSgt
01-20-2011, 06:37 PM
Sounds like your ADC employs a bunch of clowns...
NEVER pass up the opportunity to provide a response when offered. Unless you say some really dumb sh!t, it can never HURT your case.

Your rater or rater's rater can make it a referral for ANY reason, including a PT fail then pass. It is up to the next level of command to review your comments and make the call at their level. Again, your comments are allowed to provide YOUR side of the story.

If you already signed the EPR (your CC should have signed BEFORE you), then I think you'd have a pretty strong case to appeal or go to the IG... you signed an official record, and then they changed it... pure BS.

What was recorded in the feedback block of your EPR? Did they falsify a date, or admit their failure and put none was conducted. If they falsified the date A) you shouldn't have signed the EPR, and B) more ammo for appeal or IG complaint.

It's your career... fight for it

imported_CLSE
01-20-2011, 07:15 PM
Sounds like your ADC employs a bunch of clowns...
NEVER pass up the opportunity to provide a response when offered. Unless you say some really dumb sh!t, it can never HURT your case.

Your rater or rater's rater can make it a referral for ANY reason, including a PT fail then pass. It is up to the next level of command to review your comments and make the call at their level. Again, your comments are allowed to provide YOUR side of the story.

If you already signed the EPR (your CC should have signed BEFORE you), then I think you'd have a pretty strong case to appeal or go to the IG... you signed an official record, and then they changed it... pure BS.

What was recorded in the feedback block of your EPR? Did they falsify a date, or admit their failure and put none was conducted. If they falsified the date A) you shouldn't have signed the EPR, and B) more ammo for appeal or IG complaint.

It's your career... fight for it

The thought of just writing something up crossed my mind...

The SSgt that I talked to at the ADC said that there had been some debate about whether any failure during the period warranted a referral and she said the final decision was yes.

She made it sound like this was on the legal side of the house.

However, after talking to the 1st Sgt and hearing from you guys, it is beginning to make me wonder if some "command influence" was involved in the decision, because, as you've all pointed out, the option is left open to the commander.

That means someone had to make a deliberate decision on the matter...

And you're right, my commander did sign before me, but yes, I signed the EPR.

They then called me back and said that they had to re-do it to add the EPR and after talking with the ADC and Airman at the EPR desk at MPF, it sounded like it was supposed to have been added, so there wasn't anything to do but complain about it.

However, my EPR was marked as "Does not meet" for PT - but that then makes me wonder....the closeout was earlier that year and I passed in January. If they included that fail in July, that means that they basically extended my reporting period - so, am I supposed to be in the loop on an extension to my reporting period or can it happen without me knowing?

Things that make you go hmm...

Someone earlier asked about the LOD - since I wasn't injured on the job (fell off a helicopter or something similar) I (and my personal insurance) are stuck dealing with anything that happens as a result of what happens in the military until an LOD is completed.

Even then, I won't get reimbursed for any treatment prior to the LOD being approved. My take on it is that I'm on a waiver, so I can test in the mean time and so there is no justification for me spending my time, money, etc on it in the mean time.

Speaking of PT testing - this is getting to be like the Dumb and Dumber Air Force edition...

I went to take my first test on the waiver - they measure me, I get the band gooped up and fitted and then get told that I have to have a copy of my 422 with me (it's at the house, 60+ miles away).

I'm at the HAWC - the guy at the HAWC received the profile from the hospital and did the 422, putting me on the walk (and gave me the original copy) - so they have direct access to the system that says whether I'm on a waiver or not and could even print one.

But no - they "can't" verify the waiver and they won't print one.

So, I'll be testing on another day...

CrustySMSgt
01-20-2011, 07:50 PM
Not good, as a failure to bring your 422 is a no-show, which given your history, could result in additional paperwork. I just got done testing an hour ago... I left my 422 in my office, ubt out HAWC was good enough to print out my 422 (and I had the email copy called up in my crackberry, ready to forward it to anyone at the FAC if they didn't have it.)
MAKE SURE you test in JAN if you're due this month, or being overdue will again hurt you.

They should advise you if they're extending the close-out date... but I don't think it is required. But again, that would affect the feedback date, and if they falsified that on the report, your rater has committed a crime by falsifying the document. I hope you still have a copy of the signed EPR, because if you do, I'd take it STRAIGHT to the ADC and throw a fit... your EPR was signed all the way through your rating chain, to include the CC... extending the closeout AFTER that and making it a referral is a foul

Measure Man
01-20-2011, 10:19 PM
However, my EPR was marked as "Does not meet" for PT - but that then makes me wonder....the closeout was earlier that year and I passed in January. If they included that fail in July, that means that they basically extended my reporting period - so, am I supposed to be in the loop on an extension to my reporting period or can it happen without me knowing?

Things that make you go hmm...

Seems like an open shut case to me.

Print out your PT history that shows you did not have a fail on the closeout date of your EPR and file the appeal.

Your EPR should get thrown out.

imported_CLSE
01-21-2011, 12:09 AM
Crusty - test was re-scheduled - besides, I went to the UDM, who they referred me to. The UDM has my 469, but no 422 - calls the HAWC - the 422 wasn't done yet, after the guy told me in December that it was all set.

I checked my EPR, the closeout date shows August of 2009 and the reason for the report is CRO.

So, I had a prior failure at that point since the closeout date is was sooner than I thought and I need to find out if that changes my reporting period...does it reset the clock or was I due up for another EPR in May of 2010?

Also, if my RO, my commander and I all sign my EPR and my commander didn't refer it, can MPF kick it back to have a referral added for the PT failure? Or would my commander have to request that the referral be added?

Bloody hell this is a mess.

bb stacker
01-21-2011, 12:15 AM
just fyi, if your getting a profile you need to follow up with your ufpm to make sure he sends it to the hawk. i have heard that if your not going to be on a lengthy profile they wont ever bother sending it due to the time it takes for them to generate the 422.

takthekak
01-21-2011, 04:03 AM
CLSE,
As my old Navy boss used to say "your not day 1 of 1" meaning your
not a brand new airman right, becuase you are starting to sound like one.

imported_BRAVO10000
01-21-2011, 04:20 AM
Crusty - test was re-scheduled - besides, I went to the UDM, who they referred me to. The UDM has my 469, but no 422 - calls the HAWC - the 422 wasn't done yet, after the guy told me in December that it was all set.

I checked my EPR, the closeout date shows August of 2009 and the reason for the report is CRO.

So, I had a prior failure at that point since the closeout date is was sooner than I thought and I need to find out if that changes my reporting period...does it reset the clock or was I due up for another EPR in May of 2010?

Also, if my RO, my commander and I all sign my EPR and my commander didn't refer it, can MPF kick it back to have a referral added for the PT failure? Or would my commander have to request that the referral be added?

Bloody hell this is a mess.

It resets the clock. The new closeout date would be set for August 2010, unless the next report was commander-directed or you were COR'd after more than 120 days of supervision into the cycle.

Pullinteeth
01-21-2011, 03:34 PM
First off, thanks for all the responses.

I am a reservist, an IMA to be specific, so my rating periods are two years instead of one.
The unit that I'm assigned to didn't really have me on the books other than as existing as an IMA, i.e, they didn't have me assigned to anyone here. So, I ended up with a civilian supervisor/rater, a civilian squadron director (the last military commander PCS'd and hasn't been replaced), making the Group commander the next in line militarily and the one who signs my EPRs, re-enlistments, etc.

They were getting that figured out at the same time that my EPR needed to be done.

Pullinteeth, the commander of the unit that I'm assigned to is the one that does my re-enlistment, etc, that's from the BIMAA, reserve managers, etc. We have a Chief IMA in the Group, but I haven't been able to get ahold of him for six months (I've sent e-mails, left voice messages, he's even been here and gone).

So, I don't know who else would do it. To complicate matters, my command is cutting all of the Cat-B Overage (which includes mine) and Cat-E billets as excess.

So, now I may have to go and find another unit to pick me up (somebody had asked about the effects of the referral, that's one thing that will be more difficult).

Thanks again.

Ok, that helps. There are more options now that I know the whole thing. As an IMA, you can appeal still appeal your EPR. Also, for your re-enlistment, it is HQ ARPC/DPAFER that makes the decision not your commander. Your commander has to sign the notification but doesn't have the authority to actually deny it (from what I can tell);

9.7. Reenlistment and Separation
HQ ARPC/DPAFER sends a Selective Reenlistment Process (SRP) letter approximately 6 months before the IMAs enlistment expires. This letter needs to signed by the member, supervisor, and commander and returned to HQ ARPC/DPAFER 6760 E Irvington Pl., #2600, Denver, CO 80280-3800 within 60 days of receipt. Once ARPC receives the SRP letter, a DD Form 4/1, Reenlistment Document, will be sent with instructions to be completed and returned to ARPC. If the letter of intent to reenlist is not returned by the suspense date, HQ ARPC will send a second notice, with copies to the unit of attachment, unit of assignment, and the Program Manager. Discharge action will then take place the day after separation date. Reenlistment information can be obtained by visiting the Virtual MPF. All signatures must include your full middle name--do not use just a middle initial. Return the letter of intent with your decision to HQ ARPC/DPAFER if you do not choose to reenlist before your ETS. HQ ARPC/DPAFER will initiate discharge action.

If you are trying to call the Chief, depending on what Det, you may be bashing your head against the wall. As far as BIMAAs go, some are GREAT and some are completely worthless. My reccomendation is to call one of the techs at the Det for help. What Det are you assigned to? As far as losing your position, that also isn't your commander's decision. When you came into the program, you signed an overage letter that limits the time you can spend as an overage. Your commander CAN decide not to extend the overage but cannot eliminate you if your time hasn't expired (RMG could if they so decidedThe nice thing about being an IMA is that the location doesn't really matter-do you time in a chunk and your travel is paid so you can probably find another position somewhere. Cat Es are a whole nother thing because they aren't paid so I don't get why they would cut free labor but...

Hope that helps

Pullinteeth
01-21-2011, 03:42 PM
CLSE,
As my old Navy boss used to say "your not day 1 of 1" meaning your
not a brand new airman right, becuase you are starting to sound like one.

Have you ever BEEN an IMA? The joke was that it doesn't stand to Individual Mobilization Augmentee, it stands for I M Alone. How would you feel if you were sent to a base that the MPF does nothing for you (your MPF may be halfway around the world), finance does nothing for you (again might be half way around the world), your supervisor may/may not know you even exist, you are responsible for getting your orders done and sending a form to your finance office every day you work or you don't get paid. The closest person to you that may know what is going on may be 6-8 hours away, the people actually responsible for your well being (the Det) may be across the country or across the globe from you.
I do see your point but esp for IMAs the policy and direction can be hard to decipher and the proper channels to follow convoluded and hard to follow as well-do you go through the ADAF unit or the Det? RMG or ARPC?
I'm just saying...IMA can be wonderful but if there are problems, it can take FOREVER to bird-dog it to the ground...

imported_CLSE
01-24-2011, 04:09 PM
CLSE,
As my old Navy boss used to say "your not day 1 of 1" meaning your
not a brand new airman right, becuase you are starting to sound like one.

I understand where you're coming from, that said, I would reference you to Pullinteeth's last comment.

A colonel I talked to right before I joined told the bit about IMA standing for "I M Alone" and that phrase has been ringing in my head continuously for the past several months. My Chief IMA, who is the one who is supposed to help me out with all of this, is MIA and my growing suspicion is that it's deliberate. The reserve managers and BIMAA do what they can to try and help, but that's not a lot.

Beyond my direct supervisor and a handful of other people, most of my unit doesn't even know I exist, the ones that do, don't know what to do with me. I still have my own medical records, training records, PRF, etc because the people who are supposed to handle that don't know what do, so they tell me to hold on to it and with the turn-over in my unit, it's probably better that I do.

I got off of AD as a SrA and have been a traditional ever since - the Guard doesn't use EPRs, so in the 8 years I was there, I never had to write one or rate anybody - my duties were limited to fixing airplanes, training others to do that and maybe some verbal counseling, that's it. I know the basic idea behind all the rest, but I don't know what reg covers what off the top of my head.

On top of that, I came from a regular Guard unit, meaning we had a UDM, training NCO, Admin people, etc, people who knew their job and how to get things done.

As an IMA, I'm stuck tracking down who knows what and the f**ked up organization of this base doesn't help - reference the two
1st Sgts on a base with 2 full wings, a group commander signing my EPRs, and no NCOs and (only recently) one officer in my chain between me and the colonel - I am learning that I basically need to learn every rule, regulation, way to do things, etc on my own - that's why I am asking here, I don't expect you guys to tell me everything I need to know, but I am hoping that you can point me in the right direction.

And figuring all this out is done on my time, i.e., my civilian, engineering school and trying get something productive done on the reserve side, so this is just one more thing to add to the pile.

Right now, I need a little more help to get head extricated from my a** and my a** extricated from this mess.

I really do appreciate the help you guys have provided and I hope you'll keep offering what you have.

Thanks.

imported_CLSE
01-24-2011, 05:47 PM
Ok, that helps. There are more options now that I know the whole thing. As an IMA, you can appeal still appeal your EPR. Also, for your re-enlistment, it is HQ ARPC/DPAFER that makes the decision not your commander. Your commander has to sign the notification but doesn't have the authority to actually deny it (from what I can tell);

9.7. Reenlistment and Separation
HQ ARPC/DPAFER sends a Selective Reenlistment Process (SRP) letter approximately 6 months before the IMAs enlistment expires. This letter needs to signed by the member, supervisor, and commander and returned to HQ ARPC/DPAFER 6760 E Irvington Pl., #2600, Denver, CO 80280-3800 within 60 days of receipt. Once ARPC receives the SRP letter, a DD Form 4/1, Reenlistment Document, will be sent with instructions to be completed and returned to ARPC. If the letter of intent to reenlist is not returned by the suspense date, HQ ARPC will send a second notice, with copies to the unit of attachment, unit of assignment, and the Program Manager. Discharge action will then take place the day after separation date. Reenlistment information can be obtained by visiting the Virtual MPF. All signatures must include your full middle name--do not use just a middle initial. Return the letter of intent with your decision to HQ ARPC/DPAFER if you do not choose to reenlist before your ETS. HQ ARPC/DPAFER will initiate discharge action.

If you are trying to call the Chief, depending on what Det, you may be bashing your head against the wall. As far as BIMAAs go, some are GREAT and some are completely worthless. My reccomendation is to call one of the techs at the Det for help. What Det are you assigned to? As far as losing your position, that also isn't your commander's decision. When you came into the program, you signed an overage letter that limits the time you can spend as an overage. Your commander CAN decide not to extend the overage but cannot eliminate you if your time hasn't expired (RMG could if they so decidedThe nice thing about being an IMA is that the location doesn't really matter-do you time in a chunk and your travel is paid so you can probably find another position somewhere. Cat Es are a whole nother thing because they aren't paid so I don't get why they would cut free labor but...

Hope that helps

I belong to RMG Det 12 - the cutting of the billets is coming from the command level, RMG is the one that sent the letters - right before Christmas while everybody was on leave and gave us 15 calender days to send justification letters in response.

Right now, the det is checking into whether those of us over 16 are in Reserve Sanctuary and so exempt from being forced into the non-participating IRR. One of the managers thinks that means we will also get to retain our Cat-B overages, however, she also said that will limit what kind of active duty we can do to prevent us from being activated long enough to be eligible for AD retirement bennies, but that wouldn't be a problem for me, as my TAFMS is just shy of 10 years. That would be one long activation :)

Our Chief IMA (at the group) is a Lt Col, I'm the only enlisted IMA in the group. I haven't talked to the Chief at Det 12 yet, but I'll be getting there at some point.

takthekak
01-24-2011, 07:05 PM
I understand where you're coming from, that said, I would reference you to Pullinteeth's last comment.

A colonel I talked to right before I joined told the bit about IMA standing for "I M Alone" and that phrase has been ringing in my head continuously for the past several months. My Chief IMA, who is the one who is supposed to help me out with all of this, is MIA and my growing suspicion is that it's deliberate. The reserve managers and BIMAA do what they can to try and help, but that's not a lot.

Beyond my direct supervisor and a handful of other people, most of my unit doesn't even know I exist, the ones that do, don't know what to do with me. I still have my own medical records, training records, PRF, etc because the people who are supposed to handle that don't know what do, so they tell me to hold on to it and with the turn-over in my unit, it's probably better that I do.

I got off of AD as a SrA and have been a traditional ever since - the Guard doesn't use EPRs, so in the 8 years I was there, I never had to write one or rate anybody - my duties were limited to fixing airplanes, training others to do that and maybe some verbal counseling, that's it. I know the basic idea behind all the rest, but I don't know what reg covers what off the top of my head.

On top of that, I came from a regular Guard unit, meaning we had a UDM, training NCO, Admin people, etc, people who knew their job and how to get things done.

As an IMA, I'm stuck tracking down who knows what and the f**ked up organization of this base doesn't help - reference the two
1st Sgts on a base with 2 full wings, a group commander signing my EPRs, and no NCOs and (only recently) one officer in my chain between me and the colonel - I am learning that I basically need to learn every rule, regulation, way to do things, etc on my own - that's why I am asking here, I don't expect you guys to tell me everything I need to know, but I am hoping that you can point me in the right direction.

And figuring all this out is done on my time, i.e., my civilian, engineering school and trying get something productive done on the reserve side, so this is just one more thing to add to the pile.

Right now, I need a little more help to get head extricated from my a** and my a** extricated from this mess.

I really do appreciate the help you guys have provided and I hope you'll keep offering what you have.

Thanks.

Yeah, I probably came off like an A hole...I was just meaning to either take it as high as possible and in the meantime keep staying smart and doing things on your own...Honestly I have little experience in this, but others seem too...Regardless of the situation, I believe every base has to have an ADC or IG, or hell write an email to your congressman or senator...When I seperated after my first years, I actually had an overage held at Niagra Air National Guard, but came back in active duty AF before officially going into that slot, and the MSgt lady who had held it was pissed and threating to screw me, but she had no power and I came back in 4 months after seperation and the guard slot went away...I can imagine sometimes you feel alone, but you cannot be the first person going through things, keep asking for help and calling other bases and units or like I said take it to the very top, as this will affect you for years to come...or if need, make sure you have plans post AF...best of luck and again sorry for not being more supportive.

imported_CLSE
01-24-2011, 07:50 PM
Yeah, I probably came off like an A hole...I was just meaning to either take it as high as possible and in the meantime keep staying smart and doing things on your own...Honestly I have little experience in this, but others seem too...Regardless of the situation, I believe every base has to have an ADC or IG, or hell write an email to your congressman or senator...When I seperated after my first years, I actually had an overage held at Niagra Air National Guard, but came back in active duty AF before officially going into that slot, and the MSgt lady who had held it was pissed and threating to screw me, but she had no power and I came back in 4 months after seperation and the guard slot went away...I can imagine sometimes you feel alone, but you cannot be the first person going through things, keep asking for help and calling other bases and units or like I said take it to the very top, as this will affect you for years to come...or if need, make sure you have plans post AF...best of luck and again sorry for not being more supportive.

I know where you're coming from - after I double checked my EPR, I realized what a dumbs**t I must look like, but everything has been running into one, long episode and I'm starting to lose track of what happened when etc... The close-out date on the EPR was Jul of 2009 but I didn't sign it (the first time) until August of 2010 is just one example.

I'm going to push, but I'm already starting at the group level and I've never had to deal with full-birds on issues like this, let alone me being the one pushing the issues, so this has me way outside what I'm used to dealing with.

Having my a** left hanging in the breeze by my reserve chain isn't very helpful either, so, again, I appreciate whatever you guys can offer.

takthekak
01-24-2011, 07:59 PM
I know where you're coming from - after I double checked my EPR, I realized what a dumbs**t I must look like, but everything has been running into one, long episode and I'm starting to lose track of what happened when etc... The close-out date on the EPR was Jul of 2009 but I didn't sign it (the first time) until August of 2010 is just one example.

I'm going to push, but I'm already starting at the group level and I've never had to deal with full-birds on issues like this, let alone me being the one pushing the issues, so this has me way outside what I'm used to dealing with.

Having my a** left hanging in the breeze by my reserve chain isn't very helpful either, so, again, I appreciate whatever you guys can offer.

I have worked for colonels and I will say this...some want to hear your story..others want it related to the mission...best to get all the facts down on paper, that makes them more emotionless...that way your just presenting chronological facts...Now, when dealing with Commanders, they don't know everything...so know what your asking for from them...Meaning know what your situation is but just as importantly, what your asking that Commander to do or check into...The best way I have gotten help is to give them answers or solutions...by providing regs and guidance from agencies...Most like black and white...buy will dabble in the grey if you get them on your side...If you stay positive when dealing with people and speak of goals in the future, you may win support...Bitterness, cursing people out, spike, accusations, etc may not help...Also, if need be, know when to say when and press on...Higher officers have so much to do, they may not have time to check into big things, but that's why there are execs...again, good luck...and sadly yes, sometimes the only person fighting for you may be you...that's everywhere in life...

RobotChicken
08-16-2013, 08:58 AM
It's not a moot point because some people (myself included) don't test for 12 months. I never heard of anyone else doing this....if they are they need to change the closeout date to within the period the test was acccomplished. There are circumstances were a significant incident may have occurred that could warrant a CC documenting it on an EPR that has just passed the closeout date. PT has never been one of those issues anywhere I've ever been.

"Times changed in 2.6 years didn't it?"

BRUWIN
08-16-2013, 04:09 PM
"Times changed in 2.6 years didn't it?"

That they do. It's getting to the point where the PT failures at Leavenworth are even more scorned than child molesters.