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imported_Joker76
12-11-2010, 09:09 PM
OH nevermind...thought we'd get some intelligent conversation about the physical/genetic diffrences...should have considerd my audience.

Mowgli
12-11-2010, 09:32 PM
Your articles only talked about how blacks are far physically superior to everyone else. So your arguement is that while women have lower PT standards, blacks should have a higher one?What are to getting at here? Statistically, I agree that they are more physically gifted, As long as they don't have to swim. Your posting Privlidges should get revoked for posting garbage and wasting space

Airborne
12-11-2010, 09:46 PM
This is the stupidest thing Ive heard suggested. The PT is made easy so everyone can pass. I actually think youre trolling.

Bobby Dukes
12-12-2010, 02:29 AM
OH nevermind...thought we'd get some intelligent conversation about the physical/genetic diffrences...should have considerd my audience.

Consider my middle finger.

And these two letters: E and O. Goes both ways, pal.

Mowgli
12-12-2010, 03:16 AM
Intelligent by your standards!?!? There's a short bus club floating around here somewhere, you'll fit right in.

ghostrider
12-12-2010, 09:46 AM
Quit sniffing the glue

Forsaken Wombat
12-12-2010, 12:59 PM
Your articles only talked about how blacks are far physically superior to everyone else. So your arguement is that while women have lower PT standards, blacks should have a higher one?What are to getting at here? Statistically, I agree that they are more physically gifted, As long as they don't have to swim. Your posting Privlidges should get revoked for posting garbage and wasting space


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rqI8xwXVac

SeeBee
12-12-2010, 01:47 PM
A standard is singular. We're in enough trouble with the existing variety of standards as it is. Trying to codify PT standards based on genetic makeup will take us down a bad path. No disrespect intended, but I think the discussion could prove valuable by taking the discussion in the opposite direction: how do we create/enforce ONE standard for all AF members?

Mowgli
12-12-2010, 02:08 PM
A standard is singular. We're in enough trouble with the existing variety of standards as it is. Trying to codify PT standards based on genetic makeup will take us down a bad path. No disrespect intended, but I think the discussion could prove valuable by taking the discussion in the opposite direction: how do we create/enforce ONE standard for all AF members?

Yes, the genetic jumble would cater to the weak and breed/be segregation. This guy is on way stronger stuff than just elmers(glue)

technomage1
12-13-2010, 01:45 AM
Any difference between the races at the level we're talking about (PT standard level) is statistically insignificant. Elite althetes of different races may have a competitive edge, but that's by no means proven nor should it be applied to our PT standards.

PT should reflect a minimum standard for all members to meet in order to be physically capable of doing the mission.

imported_wrmdispatcher
12-13-2010, 07:00 AM
OH nevermind...thought we'd get some intelligent conversation about the physical/genetic diffrences...should have considerd my audience.

Intelligent conversation with an unresearched or unverifiable conclusion? Before you work the audience for intelligence find a mirror or at least go outside and look at your reflection in the broken car sitting in front of your double wide trailer.

BISSBOSS
12-13-2010, 07:18 AM
Q - Should blacks/whites/asians/hispanics have diffrent PT standards?

A - No.

Disclaimer - Not being racist

Retort - Uuuhhmm... Yeah you are... Just a tad (Lest there be no reason to say it).

-BB-:nono

Ruckus
12-13-2010, 07:30 AM
Whenever we're all done with our righteous, white-guilt-fueled indignation (complete with wailing and gnashing of teeth), can this thread please die?

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-13-2010, 10:16 AM
Well, there was a written entrance test thrown out in NY for firefighters because the law suit claimed (by the plantifs) that minorities are statistically not good at taking written tests. So, with that precedence, they are arguing the minorities are better at physical part of the tests. We should have standards arcoss the board, no more affirmative action.

Mowgli
12-13-2010, 12:41 PM
This is the military, not the NY fire dep so nothing you've posted up to this point is valid

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-13-2010, 12:54 PM
This is the military, not the NY fire dep so nothing you've posted up to this point is valid

Are we not discussing generalizations of how human beings work? So all examples work and points are valid.

VFFSSGT
12-13-2010, 04:44 PM
What about the differences between:

Tall & Short people
Skinny & Fat People
Men & Women
...

Comm_Guy
12-13-2010, 05:51 PM
What about people of mixed races?? How would they test?

sigecaps
12-13-2010, 06:23 PM
What about people of mixed races?? How would they test?

Average out their scores based on the percentage they have of each race?

technomage1
12-13-2010, 11:29 PM
I'm not entirely convinced that there is a verifiable link between race and athletic performance in any given sport anyway, even at the elite level. There are so many variables involved that I think it's impossible to boil it down to 1. Diet, culture, personal work ethic, deisre, all are a part of athletic performance as much as genetics are.

Take the case of runners, for example. Probably the 2 best groups in the world are the Kenyans and the Ethiopians. Both, obviously are African nations. But right now the Kenyans are kicking everyone's tail. Why? It has to be more than race because both groups share the same race.

Mowgli
12-14-2010, 01:04 AM
Consider life style and environment: higher eleveation; primary mode a transportation has been by foot. Why are minorities better at sports? Less opportunities, they have more hunger to succeed coming from a low income environment-they don't get the same value of education in poorer communities. Come from nothing you work harder for what you want. Spoon fed kids don't understand this hence the question posed by the OP. Title is about PT standards in military is it not? The NY FD arguement is invalid. I'll accept lower PT standards for whites if you give us minorities extra WAPs points. Result: more senior ranking minorities, diteriorating physical state for everyone else, but you don't think things through do you?

golfer55
12-14-2010, 02:48 AM
I'll accept lower PT standards for whites if you give us minorities extra WAPs points. Result: more senior ranking minorities, diteriorating physical state for everyone else, but you don't think things through do you?

How about we just make the standards fair and the SAME for everyone. Say for instance you have 20 slots available for your sport team. 100 people apply to include whites, blacks, mexicans, chinese, so on. the test factors were equal for everyone and your top 20 turned out to be black. So guess what, you have 20 new black players on your team. They did better on the tryout so they are derserving to play. What is so bad about that. It was fair. Same goes for this...You have 20 management positions open for a company and 100 applicants apply. In this mix you have the same breakdown as your sports team. You conduct a standardized test for all applicants. the top 20 scorers were all white. Guess what, you now have 20 new white managers. My point with this is there should be NO mandatory help for any race. We ALL need to be treated the exact same, PERIOD! If one race is better then another at something then oh fuckin well, not my problem. I guess more effort will need to go into obtaining someting you desire instead of looking for a bump or extra assistance. I know if I was trying out for a sports team I would be the last one picked (except for golf). I would have to put in 10X the effort to even come close to most minority athletes. You know what, that's good on them! I hold nothing against them for it because they are better then me hands down.

Mowgli
12-14-2010, 03:03 AM
Read through it a bit, your comprehension is off..... I'm not agreeing with this skewed retarded proposal. Also, golf is lame don't care that your good at it. It's not a team sport so you wouldn't get picked last for anything. You can go manage all the fast food joints you want, just don't sell yourself short bud

golfer55
12-14-2010, 03:22 AM
Read through it a bit, your comprehension is off..... I'm not agreeing with this skewed retarded proposal. Also, golf is lame don't care that your good at it. It's not a team sport so you wouldn't get picked last for anything. You can go manage all the fast food joints you want, just don't sell yourself short bud

Actually my comprehension is just fine. I figured you were not agreeing with this retarted proposal. Sorry if it sounded as if I thought you did. I was just trying to make a point. The standards should just be the same for everyone whether you are black or white. It's a fact of life that some are better then others at different things. Let's just live with it without adjusting the standards for a certain group. Now as far as golf goes, yes for the most part you play as an individual. There are however many events where it's a team sport. Ryder Cup, Presidents Cup, Intramurals, Team comp, etc...BTW I won't be managing any fast food restaurants anytime soon. Teaching yes, fast food hell no!

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-14-2010, 10:15 AM
I'm not entirely convinced that there is a verifiable link between race and athletic performance in any given sport anyway, even at the elite level. There are so many variables involved that I think it's impossible to boil it down to 1. Diet, culture, personal work ethic, deisre, all are a part of athletic performance as much as genetics are.

Take the case of runners, for example. Probably the 2 best groups in the world are the Kenyans and the Ethiopians. Both, obviously are African nations. But right now the Kenyans are kicking everyone's tail. Why? It has to be more than race because both groups share the same race.Yes, cause the white running back from Stanford that placed 2nd in the Heisman race last year will agree with you. To bad the recruiters and scouts of the NFL don't. He got picked in the 2nd round, 5th (I think) of running backs overall, and is playing oh so much in the NFL. But hey, your opinion vs the professionals of the NFL, someone has to be wrong.

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-14-2010, 10:28 AM
Consider life style and environment: higher eleveation; primary mode a transportation has been by foot. Why are minorities better at sports? Less opportunities, they have more hunger to succeed coming from a low income environment-they don't get the same value of education in poorer communities. Come from nothing you work harder for what you want. Spoon fed kids don't understand this hence the question posed by the OP. Title is about PT standards in military is it not? The NY FD arguement is invalid. I'll accept lower PT standards for whites if you give us minorities extra WAPs points. Result: more senior ranking minorities, diteriorating physical state for everyone else, but you don't think things through do you?

One, I don't want and difference in standards, whether it be physical or mental. Quite frankly, I call BS on your "value of education" in poorer communities. I was part of the poorer community and still passed and intelligent enough to get a job. The fact is, the sports avenue is easier and more fun for most. It takes less effort to play a sport when you are naturally gifted, just as passing school is easy when you are naturally gifted in intelligence. But as sports careers usually only last till some are 35, usually less, intelligence should always be the prime focus of any family. One of my high school coaches has 4 sons, all 6'2"+, oldest 3 were 300lbs. They never played football till they got to high school because he worked on getting them knowledge before he allowed them to play a sport. All 3 (the 4th was after I left town) went to ivy league schools to play football. But they were there to get an education first then play football.

I was only bringing up the NY FD as a point that some want different standards only when it would benefit them, no matter what degrogation they may say about themselves, they just want it to be easier.

technomage1
12-15-2010, 02:14 AM
Yes, cause the white running back from Stanford that placed 2nd in the Heisman race last year will agree with you. To bad the recruiters and scouts of the NFL don't. He got picked in the 2nd round, 5th (I think) of running backs overall, and is playing oh so much in the NFL. But hey, your opinion vs the professionals of the NFL, someone has to be wrong.

My point still stands. Perception is a variable. You're refering to perception of a difference rather than a verifiable, quantifiable difference. That recruiters and scouts percieve that there is a difference doesn't mean that there is one.

It's the same with fruit. A redder apple isn't necessarily tastier than one who is not so red. But consumers percieve that there is a difference and select redder apples.

Mowgli
12-15-2010, 03:16 AM
One, I don't want and difference in standards, whether it be physical or mental. Quite frankly, I call BS on your "value of education" in poorer communities. I was part of the poorer community and still passed and intelligent enough to get a job. The fact is, the sports avenue is easier and more fun for most. It takes less effort to play a sport when you are naturally gifted, just as passing school is easy when you are naturally gifted in intelligence. But as sports careers usually only last till some are 35, usually less, intelligence should always be the prime focus of any family. One of my high school coaches has 4 sons, all 6'2"+, oldest 3 were 300lbs. They never played football till they got to high school because he worked on getting them knowledge before he allowed them to play a sport. All 3 (the 4th was after I left town) went to ivy league schools to play football. But they were there to get an education first then play football.

I was only bringing up the NY FD as a point that some want different standards only when it would benefit them, no matter what degrogation they may say about themselves, they just want it to be easier.

Speaking strictly on the education values, your saying that the poorer school
districts ( overcrowding,high crime rates, dated study material, under paid/underqualed faculty, poor facilities), provides students with equal educational opportunities as private/ better funded schools? Your either sheltered or not too smart. I've seen both sides and speaking from experience that your wrong. Some schools give every student laptops with a built in network system for studying and tutoring/ top notch sports training programs; on the flip side others are scraping by with books coming loose at the bindings and buildings not up to code. Kids worried about not getting shanked on campus.When I was a junior in '01 I had a science book that was teaching that I the yr 2000 we would be living on mars like the jetsons. Are students less likely to succeed? Who knows? Are there gifted and vice-versa in both scenarios?yes. So what are you getting at here?

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-15-2010, 11:53 AM
My point still stands. Perception is a variable. You're refering to perception of a difference rather than a verifiable, quantifiable difference. That recruiters and scouts percieve that there is a difference doesn't mean that there is one.

It's the same with fruit. A redder apple isn't necessarily tastier than one who is not so red. But consumers percieve that there is a difference and select redder apples.
But that is all this ever comes down to, preception. Some precieve that blacks and other minorities can't do written test well, so they claim racial biased. People get promoted and because the split isnt 50/50 (equally divided) through ALL races, then something must be wrong(even though the test promoted the same amount as represented in american society). Preception becomes reality to the ignorant.

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-15-2010, 12:02 PM
Speaking strictly on the education values, your saying that the poorer school
districts ( overcrowding,high crime rates, dated study material, under paid/underqualed faculty, poor facilities), provides students with equal educational opportunities as private/ better funded schools? Your either sheltered or not too smart. I've seen both sides and speaking from experience that your wrong. Some schools give every student laptops with a built in network system for studying and tutoring/ top notch sports training programs; on the flip side others are scraping by with books coming loose at the bindings and buildings not up to code. Kids worried about not getting shanked on campus.When I was a junior in '01 I had a science book that was teaching that I the yr 2000 we would be living on mars like the jetsons. Are students less likely to succeed? Who knows? Are there gifted and vice-versa in both scenarios?yes. So what are you getting at here?

Again, I went to the poor neighborhood school and so did my brother. We did good because our parents forced us to do good. Even in a "poor" school, getting straight A's will get you into college just the same as straight A's in private school. Work ethic is the same no matter what school you go to. The rag tag books don't make you get D's and F's or make you drop out, that is your decision. I sure as hell never got a laptop, we barely had cell phones in school. My brother was 7 years older than me, the internet wasn't even around back then. He is very "successful" because of his work ethic. Quite blaming everything else, especially "whites" for you community schools being underfunded. That was a choice of you community to be the lower income because they choose not to get an education or stay on welfare, thus not providing adequate tax revenue to the school districts to provide for their kids education. I moved out of the "city" because they don't have the better funded school, the small towns usually provide better for their kids.

Mowgli
12-15-2010, 02:41 PM
Not blaming anyone just calling it what it is. I never had a problem in school and not making excuses for anyone else, just how it was/is. Why move to a better school district if you did so well with your up bringing? Just curious, because it totally isn't supporting your arguement. Wanted to give your kids a better opportunity maybe? Yup, thanks for making my point for me

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-15-2010, 02:58 PM
Not blaming anyone just calling it what it is. I never had a problem in school and not making excuses for anyone else, just how it was/is. Why move to a better school district if you did so well with your up bringing? Just curious, because it totally isn't supporting your arguement. Wanted to give your kids a better opportunity maybe? Yup, thanks for making my point for me
One, I moved cause I am military. I chose the area to live in that respected their taxes that went to schools because they would help out with how the school got funded. They take pride in trying to get their kids an "up to date" education. But a straight A report card for my kids here will equal the straight A report card from where you or I grew up when it comes to college entrance exams, (unless you mark the box "African American" at some schools).

Is it any wonder that the places with the highest debt to their cities are the cities that keep trying to dole out more welfare and government aid? This makes it to where you have more unemployment (because taking gov aid is easier than getting a job) thus creating a lower tax income to put towards public schools. You are making an excuse for who ever doesn't succeed in the poverdish school claiming it is because the dated materials and over sized class rooms. You lack trying to put the responsibility on parents that force their kids to do school work at home, ask questions if the teacher couldn't answer due to overcrowding. This BS that kids can't succeed because the schools in the communities that choose not to work don't get enough funding like the schools in the neighborhoods where you have working families pumping money into their local schools is getting old.

Mowgli
12-15-2010, 04:07 PM
So why do people compete for slots/ dump x amount of money to go to certain colleges if the previous statements don't matter. Things like teacher(instructor) to student ratio don't matter? Why does every school out there try to regullate these determining factors? Every military/tm funded training trip gets AARed, based on cost to quality ratio;determines if it's worth dishing the cash to do again. Why not go to any shooting course out there? Number of instructors, credentials, facilities, course break down and execution....yes. No one course/school is equal and neither is the product that comes out the other end. Higher standards produce better products. That's why in the military there are leg-a$$ pouges and there are hardhitting freedom fighters

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-15-2010, 04:50 PM
So why do people compete for slots/ dump x amount of money to go to certain colleges if the previous statements don't matter. Things like teacher(instructor) to student ratio don't matter? Why does every school out there try to regullate these determining factors? Every military/tm funded training trip gets AARed, based on cost to quality ratio;determines if it's worth dishing the cash to do again. Why not go to any shooting course out there? Number of instructors, credentials, facilities, course break down and execution....yes. No one course/school is equal and neither is the product that comes out the other end. Higher standards produce better products. That's why in the military there are leg-a$$ pouges and there are hardhitting freedom fightersMilitary = No one at home to "help" you like a parent. Second, I have seen the over crowded schools for white dominated communities that still have "good" passing rates compared to the overly black populated schools. My brother was bussed 45-60 mins away to "even" out the ratio in a black dominated school, he still passed every class. Why is that? Our parents helped him to pass by getting him to do his homework, not because he got a tutor. It is about work ethic, and majorally in the school systems of inner city schools, too many kids have the "role models" that continually collect gov aid. It is the reason why schools get less in funding and it is the reason for kids not striving for better grades, someone will give them what they don't work for.

Mowgli
12-15-2010, 05:07 PM
I'm not arguing a students individual home situation, just that there is such a thing as quality education/training. Some places can afford teachers who are knowledgable/qualified some can't. Passing your classes with A's by doing what is required isn't necessarily the same as learning anything. Either way our same old welfare/community thing is getting old. Tried to move this thing along here, but I can see there is no head way to make here. Pt standards bases on ones race is retarded, done.

imported_WILDJOKER5
12-15-2010, 05:17 PM
Pt standards bases on ones race is retarded, done.

Agreed, just as getting extra points for testing based on once race is retarted.

MACHINE666
12-15-2010, 09:30 PM
Wow. If people are going to be offended, they may as well go for the gold medal I say.

The testers should bring a boom-box out when people are testing, and they should play ethno-centric music according to each person. Black - rap music replete with cursing and ebonics. White - classical music, unless you're from the South. Then it's country music instead. Asian - someone hits a gong for every lap they complete. Hispanic - a mariachi band plays 'La Cucaracha'.

Seriously. Can this thread get any more dumber? Smarg? Smarg? *whistles*

FLAPS
12-18-2010, 05:17 AM
Wow. If people are going to be offended, they may as well go for the gold medal I say.

The testers should bring a boom-box out when people are testing, and they should play ethno-centric music according to each person. Black - rap music replete with cursing and ebonics. White - classical music, unless you're from the South. Then it's country music instead. Asian - someone hits a gong for every lap they complete. Hispanic - a mariachi band plays 'La Cucaracha'.

Seriously. Can this thread get any more dumber? Smarg? Smarg? *whistles*

You're right, this thread is pretty stupid. Even if we were to set different standards for different races, then where do you draw the line for those who are mixed race? My co-worker is 50% hispanic/50% white. My Chief is half black, half white. What if you are 10% indian? How about 30% black?

Stupid, stupid thread...

Pullinteeth
04-24-2013, 01:28 PM
I was thinking about this very topic the other day.... As someone that has sickle cell trait, I am more worthless than usual if I have to do the FTF and it is even kinda hot out. I get extremely dehydrated and have a blinding headache for the rest of the day.... Sure I could stop running and drink water but I do want to pass....

sandsjames
04-24-2013, 03:14 PM
I was thinking about this very topic the other day.... As someone that has sickle cell trait, I am more worthless than usual if I have to do the FTF and it is even kinda hot out. I get extremely dehydrated and have a blinding headache for the rest of the day.... Sure I could stop running and drink water but I do want to pass....

There was some posting about this a couple weeks back. It is a proven fact that blacks and hispanics, on average, have larger waists than whites. Not because of obesity...strictly because it's a genetic trait. There is no doubt in my mind the standards should be different based of race just as they are by gender.

The issue, however, is how would you apply that to mixed race? Asian/Hispanic mix? Asians have smaller waists and Hispanics have larger so which race do you go by?

There should be different standards, just not sure how they'd be applied.

Measure Man
04-24-2013, 03:38 PM
There was some posting about this a couple weeks back. It is a proven fact that blacks and hispanics, on average, have larger waists than whites. Not because of obesity...strictly because it's a genetic trait. There is no doubt in my mind the standards should be different based of race just as they are by gender.

The issue, however, is how would you apply that to mixed race? Asian/Hispanic mix? Asians have smaller waists and Hispanics have larger so which race do you go by?

There should be different standards, just not sure how they'd be applied.

The answer is simpler than may appear.

Let's first remember that PT is SUPPOSED to be about Health and Fitness, NOT job performance. Job Performance standards are entirely different.

Health and Fitness should NOT be a standard because everyone is different...ta da...

If certain jobs have standards, then they must be equal for everyone...but the standard has to be based on what it actually takes to perform the job not "what we like to see",

Health and Fitness should be kept in the Medical community, by medical professionals, not ran by Personnel specialists.

As far as genetic differences...I absoutely believe there are genetic differences between races...you can't tell me a 39" waist means the same in a Somoan as it does in a Korean.

JD2780
04-24-2013, 04:35 PM
The answer is simpler than may appear.

Let's first remember that PT is SUPPOSED to be about Health and Fitness, NOT job performance. Job Performance standards are entirely different.

Health and Fitness should NOT be a standard because everyone is different...ta da...

If certain jobs have standards, then they must be equal for everyone...but the standard has to be based on what it actually takes to perform the job not "what we like to see",

Health and Fitness should be kept in the Medical community, by medical professionals, not ran by Personnel specialists.

As far as genetic differences...I absoutely believe there are genetic differences between races...you can't tell me a 39" waist means the same in a Somoan as it does in a Korean.

Your job is to be a physically fit Airmen. Your specialty is your AFSC.

Banned
04-25-2013, 03:52 PM
Wow. If people are going to be offended, they may as well go for the gold medal I say.

The testers should bring a boom-box out when people are testing, and they should play ethno-centric music according to each person. Black - rap music replete with cursing and ebonics. White - classical music, unless you're from the South. Then it's country music instead. Asian - someone hits a gong for every lap they complete. Hispanic - a mariachi band plays 'La Cucaracha'.

Seriously. Can this thread get any more dumber? Smarg? Smarg? *whistles*

What do you get when you play a country song backwards?

A story about a guy who gets his wife, house, dog, and truck back.

sandsjames
04-25-2013, 03:54 PM
What do you get when you play a country song backwards?

A story about a guy who gets his wife, house, dog, and truck back.

Very good 30 year old joke.

Measure Man
04-25-2013, 03:54 PM
Your job is to be a physically fit Airmen. Your specialty is your AFSC.

I can buy that...but physically fit for one race is not necessarily the same as physically fit for another. Again, talking overall health, not the ability to perform your specialty. Completely different things.

There can also be minimal standards to physically perform in the AF...but , that is not what the PT test is designed or intended to measure.

imported_CLSE
04-25-2013, 07:54 PM
Your job is to be a physically fit Airmen. Your specialty is your AFSC.

But the Air Force PT test isn't about being physically fit...

Scoring for the run and walk are not age adjusted at a certain point for 30-39 - the Air Force is the only service that does this, the Cooper Institute standards that the Air Force standards are based on don't do it and there is no medical basis for it. The lack of age adjustment is based on the (very subjective) opinion of some individuals that 30-39 year olds shouldn't be allowed to be "less fit" just because they're older.

The abdominal cricumference has no bearing on physical fitness simply because the people who made up the Air Force standards (deliberately) chose to ignore very real physical differences between different individuals and even different races. Ignoring those physical differences while using a common standard makes any measurement based on those standards useless.