PDA

View Full Version : Unfun Sanitized Alcohol-free Fitness-crazed



takthekak
01-24-2010, 02:11 AM
It probably depends on the base or people at said base, but I have not
experienced the things I did back in the early '90's. My first boss had
a drawer full of playboy's and people smoked in the workcenter.
We had good times at work and sometimes went on camping/fishing
trips. We partied and usually had cook outs on Friday. DUIs were not
a huge part of our lives and they were just getting into the bike test mess.
PC was not in full effect yet and we were not even on mobility. People
got yelled at and were held accountable, without fear or favor.
I still talk to over half the people I worked with, to this day. Every other
base after that, I cannot say the same. As time went on, no more playboy,
even maxim, allowed anywhere, now very few areas to smoke outside,
no trips with anyone - people just work and go home and do their own thing,
no more extra people around, no more friday cookouts, no more trust or
teamwork, now we hear about DUIs and PT every single day, you need
to be careful how you correct someone, half the base seems deployed
all the time, but the rest of the base expects full support and there's
seems to be worse and worse leadership. I am wondering, is it
just me? Are shops/people closer overseas? Is it all my imagination?

bcoco14
01-24-2010, 03:32 AM
In my experience shops overseas are alot closer nowadays than stateside bases. Overseas people are less likely to adapt to the culture and the younger generation is more closed minded to trying new things. So they stick with what they know and that's their co-workers. State side more and more people view the AF as just another job, they go home and have numerous other things that they can be doing not military related.

There are more people "out for themselves" now than I can remember when I first came in. Maybe this isn't the case, but it's an observation that I see more and more taking that road as the years go on.

Leadership will constantly change, for better or worse as we have seen through out the decades. The 60-70's it was common to use marijuana, now 1 time offense and your gone. DUI's and Article 15's used to be a slap on the wrist, meet a few Chiefs when I first came in that had 15's in their past and used to tell the younger guys that had them how they rebounded, now it's a potential career killer (rightfully so DUI's). Now you can here about NCO's being discharged for 1 yes 1 DUI, second chances are soon going to be a thing of the past. PT before counted for something but if you were good at your job you might get a pass, that's going to change.

As we evolve as a service to a more entitlement based entity you can expect more and more of the same. Leadership is going to do something to make their mark good or bad. It seems as though people would like their place in the history books more than making common sense tough decisions/policy's.

Maybe in the future we can have some common sense take hold but I doubt it.

PT GOD
01-24-2010, 05:12 AM
It probably depends on the base or people at said base, but I have not
experienced the things I did back in the early '90's. My first boss had
a drawer full of playboy's and people smoked in the workcenter.
We had good times at work and sometimes went on camping/fishing
trips. We partied and usually had cook outs on Friday. DUIs were not
a huge part of our lives and they were just getting into the bike test mess.
PC was not in full effect yet and we were not even on mobility. People
got yelled at and were held accountable, without fear or favor.
I still talk to over half the people I worked with, to this day. Every other
base after that, I cannot say the same. As time went on, no more playboy,
even maxim, allowed anywhere, now very few areas to smoke outside,
no trips with anyone - people just work and go home and do their own thing,
no more extra people around, no more friday cookouts, no more trust or
teamwork, now we hear about DUIs and PT every single day, you need
to be careful how you correct someone, half the base seems deployed
all the time, but the rest of the base expects full support and there's
seems to be worse and worse leadership. I am wondering, is it
just me? Are shops/people closer overseas? Is it all my imagination?

Sure maybe life was better "back in the day", sure you passed all your ORI's and NSI's, SURE you were all subject matter experts on your jobs..but tell me this..is any of that worth ANYTHING if you can't run a mile and a half in 12 minutes or less...i say NO...screw the days when when the USAF was full of Technical Experts unmatched by any MIlitary in the world...i'll take a bunch of guys who can PT over those clown any day of the week.

SailorDave
01-24-2010, 05:20 AM
Sure maybe life was better "back in the day", sure you passed all your ORI's and NSI's, SURE you were all subject matter experts on your jobs..but tell me this..is any of that worth ANYTHING if you can't run a mile and a half in 12 minutes or less...i say NO...screw the days when when the USAF was full of Technical Experts unmatched by any MIlitary in the world...i'll take a bunch of guys who can PT over those clown any day of the week.
Find another gimmick. This one is BORING

DogPile12
01-24-2010, 06:07 AM
Sure maybe life was better "back in the day", sure you passed all your ORI's and NSI's, SURE you were all subject matter experts on your jobs..but tell me this..is any of that worth ANYTHING if you can't run a mile and a half in 12 minutes or less...i say NO...screw the days when when the USAF was full of Technical Experts unmatched by any MIlitary in the world...i'll take a bunch of guys who can PT over those clown any day of the week.

The upcoming 1st Annual USAF Body Beautiful Award nominations are about to be announced. This is a critical performance factor for Wing CCs. So look for more of the same, even worse, as the brass runs their troops around the flag pole like show ponies. The maintenance on my aircraft can wait - I want a Body Beautiful Award nom.

Texpat
01-24-2010, 06:35 AM
Are your observations more a reflection of a less social American society as a whole? I think so. In the 80s and 90s Americans were friendlier, happier, more secure and had a generally positive outlook and standing in the world.

Not so today. Computers have replaced bowling alleys and bars and hangouts, Job security is far more fragile, Individual purchasing power has slowly eroded since the late 70s. The American dream is in shambles. On the whole, more Americans are cynical, bitter and threatened. The gap between haves and have-nots is ever increasing.

The Air Force is a microcosm of America.

Your observations might also be a by-product of aging. Generally, as you get older, your number of friends dwindles, the freedom and independence of youth is replaced with responsibilities and supervision and deadlines. It's significantly less fun and more stressful.

Of course, this is merely my opinion -- your mileage may vary.

golfer55
01-24-2010, 07:01 AM
Sure maybe life was better "back in the day", sure you passed all your ORI's and NSI's, SURE you were all subject matter experts on your jobs..but tell me this..is any of that worth ANYTHING if you can't run a mile and a half in 12 minutes or less...i say NO...screw the days when when the USAF was full of Technical Experts unmatched by any MIlitary in the world...i'll take a bunch of guys who can PT over those clown any day of the week.


PT GOD you are a FUCKIN TOOL

imnohero
01-24-2010, 03:01 PM
Yep, things were different and people would "hang out" more with the folks they worked with. Unit functions were every friday, etc. But we had more time on our hands because people weren't expected to:
1) constantly "self-improve" (read: go to college)
2) have 10s or 100s of hours of volunteer time/activites
3) do daily PT

Not that there is anything wrong with these things, but they all take time. The time we used to spend socializing with our coworkers is now spent on other things.

VFFSSGT
01-24-2010, 04:11 PM
There are more people "out for themselves" now than I can remember when I first came in. Maybe this isn't the case, but it's an observation that I see more and more taking that road as the years go on.

Well, we are an individualistic society rooted in individual liberties... (that do seem to be eroding away)

More to the point though, the Air Force has bread this "out for themselves" mentality. Airman come straight from tech school and what is practically the first thing that is told to them? What they need to do to get BTZ; from this point forward this is all they care about because all they want is more money quicker. Then you have your routine awards, which people who desire them do only what they want and need to do to get said award. It is the same with decorations; people who desire them are focused on what they need to do to get said decoration. Such focuses are typically not on the mission either. We are essentially teaching people they need to be out for themselves in order to succeed in the Air Force.


As we evolve as a service to a more entitlement based entity you can expect more and more of the same. Leadership is going to do something to make their mark good or bad. It seems as though people would like their place in the history books more than making common sense tough decisions/policy's.

We do need to rid the force of the entitlement mentality! Have a NCO in the work center now who is attempting to argue an Airman out of corrective action/punishment because it is going to hurt their career. This Airman has been long overdue for the hammer to drop on them too and this NCO still wants to fend for their "right" to have a chance to make Staff first time. And even the SNCO who is finally dropping the hammer has often been more concerned with being friends with this particular Airman.


Maybe in the future we can have some common sense take hold but I doubt it.

I hope so!

2430 MHz
01-24-2010, 05:18 PM
It probably depends on the base or people at said base, but I have not
experienced the things I did back in the early '90's. My first boss had
a drawer full of playboy's and people smoked in the workcenter.
We had good times at work and sometimes went on camping/fishing
trips. We partied and usually had cook outs on Friday. DUIs were not
a huge part of our lives and they were just getting into the bike test mess.
PC was not in full effect yet and we were not even on mobility. People
got yelled at and were held accountable, without fear or favor.
I still talk to over half the people I worked with, to this day. Every other
base after that, I cannot say the same. As time went on, no more playboy,
even maxim, allowed anywhere, now very few areas to smoke outside,
no trips with anyone - people just work and go home and do their own thing,
no more extra people around, no more friday cookouts, no more trust or
teamwork, now we hear about DUIs and PT every single day, you need
to be careful how you correct someone, half the base seems deployed
all the time, but the rest of the base expects full support and there's
seems to be worse and worse leadership. I am wondering, is it
just me? Are shops/people closer overseas? Is it all my imagination?


No, you're correct. They stopped serving 5-Star meals and started force feeding us dogsh*t, simple as that.

OF COURSE.....ALL the Senior Leadership who experienced the old school fun and joy are now the ones pushing the sh*t onto all the rest of us.

....doesn't seem fair now does it?

Shadowless
01-24-2010, 06:00 PM
Sure maybe life was better "back in the day", sure you passed all your ORI's and NSI's, SURE you were all subject matter experts on your jobs..but tell me this..is any of that worth ANYTHING if you can't run a mile and a half in 12 minutes or less...i say NO...screw the days when when the USAF was full of Technical Experts unmatched by any MIlitary in the world...i'll take a bunch of guys who can PT over those clown any day of the week.

Hummm....I was going to give you 20 posts before you were laughed out of this forum, but I don't see you making it past 15. :rolleyes:

sigecaps
01-24-2010, 06:17 PM
Are your observations more a reflection of a less social American society as a whole? I think so. In the 80s and 90s Americans were friendlier, happier, more secure and had a generally positive outlook and standing in the world.

Not so today. Computers have replaced bowling alleys and bars and hangouts, Job security is far more fragile, Individual purchasing power has slowly eroded since the late 70s. The American dream is in shambles. On the whole, more Americans are cynical, bitter and threatened. The gap between haves and have-nots is ever increasing.

The Air Force is a microcosm of America.

Your observations might also be a by-product of aging. Generally, as you get older, your number of friends dwindles, the freedom and independence of youth is replaced with responsibilities and supervision and deadlines. It's significantly less fun and more stressful.

Of course, this is merely my opinion -- your mileage may vary.

Pretty much what this guy said.

takthekak
01-24-2010, 06:56 PM
No, you're correct. They stopped serving 5-Star meals and started force feeding us dogsh*t, simple as that.

OF COURSE.....ALL the Senior Leadership who experienced the old school fun and joy are now the ones pushing the sh*t onto all the rest of us.

....doesn't seem fair now does it?

You bring up a great point and it could be a whole other thread...
Why is it that people coming up, whether it be young airman or officers,
say they will change things for the better, then it all goes to crap
when they get to the top?
I will take a stab at it...
I think it's because everyone has a boss, all the way up...Everyone wants to
think it will be great to tell their boss how it is and speak bluntly, then they
realize that by doing so they put their career and possibly their families
future in jeopardy, money wise...When some people do tell it like it is,
stick up for their people and push for things, they get labeled as a trouble
maker, loose canon, etc...Higher ups like people working for them they can
control and generally think alike. Think about it, do you want people working
for you who buck the system and say all the babies are ugly? I have
witnessed amazing leaders, who took care of the people and mission, but
behind doors people said "'he will never make it past Lt Col" or "he will
never make SMSgt" Can you imagine if most leaders told it like it was and
stood up and said, "general these bar charts are bullshit"...they would be
run out of town...Chiefs want to impress their bosses, Colonels want to
impress their Generals, MAJCOM Commanders want to impress the CSAF,
the CSAF wants to impress the President, the President wants to impress the
world...
Ultimately, if people never get past denial, no problem will ever get fixed.
Denial of our real problems, denial of stupid programs, denial to tell the
leaders they are out of touch, denial to say "Sir, that is a horrible idea"...
enough of playing the "I gotcha game" and let's uncover the issues
and deal with them head on, let's put the AF on the show "interventation"
and get it some tough love...or let's just continue driving on spare tires,
you know, the ones that you really can't go too fast on and take you nowhere.

imnohero
01-24-2010, 08:31 PM
When some people do tell it like it is, stick up for their people and push for things, they get labeled as a trouble maker, loose canon, etc...

I was one of those people my entire career. Noone cared for it much, not my leadership, not my airman. Various phrases and expressions were applied, leadership would intentionally avoid asking me what I thought about things, because they KNEW what they were doing was screwed up. But on the other hand, I had more than one commander pull me aside and say things like, "every commander needs one guy who will tell it like it is, I appreciate you being honest, even when the 'baby is ugly'."

I guess it was around 2001, I put on Tech, my chief pulled me aside and told me I needed to be more politically correct, go a little easier on the airman. If I recall correctly what he said was something like, "you are old school, no doubt...you should be put behind glass with a sign, "Break in case of war." He didn't mean it in a good way. Then the war started, and I was in his office about 6 months later and asked him if he was ready to break the glass. He wasn't too happy but he was glad to have me around.

I retired an E7. My "tell it like it is" attitude didn't stop a single promotion. So we all have choices to make, I made mine and served as the best way I knew how.

What choices are you going to make?

takthekak
01-24-2010, 10:11 PM
We need a no BS guy like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boyd_(military_strategist))
note the creation of the "fighter mafia"

who is well liked by our SECDEF, check this old article out when our SECDEF was not
exactly too crazy about this Air Force and it's leaders http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1733747,00.html?imw=Y

BENDER56
01-25-2010, 03:19 AM
Yep, things were different and people would "hang out" more with the folks they worked with. Unit functions were every friday, etc. But we had more time on our hands because people weren't expected to:
1) constantly "self-improve" (read: go to college)
2) have 10s or 100s of hours of volunteer time/activites
3) do daily PT

Not that there is anything wrong with these things, but they all take time. The time we used to spend socializing with our coworkers is now spent on other things.

When I came in in the '80s I was advised by my leadership to take college classes and volunteer for my unit, the base, and the local community (which I -- and a lot of other Airmen -- did.) About all that's different now is the PT stuff. And even that's not much different because since they announced the most recent changes in the program, my unit stopped doing group PT. So we're back to where we were in the 80s -- we're individually responsible for staying in shape and instead of running 1-1/2 miles once per year, we do it twice and have to do push-ups, sit-ups and get our waist taped.

So all three of those things are the same today as they were then.

takthekak
01-25-2010, 03:34 AM
When I came in in the '80s I was advised by my leadership to take college classes and volunteer for my unit, the base, and the local community (which I -- and a lot of other Airmen -- did.) About all that's different now is the PT stuff. And even that's not much different because since they announced the most recent changes in the program, my unit stopped doing group PT. So we're back to where we were in the 80s -- we're individually responsible for staying in shape and instead of running 1-1/2 miles once per year, we do it twice and have to do push-ups, sit-ups and get our waist taped.

So all three of those things are the same today as they were then.

I remember distinctly, our female flight commander captain, calling us together
around 93/94 and telling us about the "whole person concept" they were going
to be looking at...I am not saying they weren''t pushing stuff earlier, but that
was the first time I heard that word and it being put out as being more important
than learning my job and I was an A1C at the time...

Zwerge
01-26-2010, 03:47 AM
Sure maybe life was better "back in the day", sure you passed all your ORI's and NSI's, SURE you were all subject matter experts on your jobs..but tell me this..is any of that worth ANYTHING if you can't run a mile and a half in 12 minutes or less...i say NO...screw the days when when the USAF was full of Technical Experts unmatched by any MIlitary in the world...i'll take a bunch of guys who can PT over those clown any day of the week.

You must be a dumb jock. Running your mile and half won't help if you can't read your T.O.

MACHINE666
01-26-2010, 04:17 AM
We need a no BS guy like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boyd_(military_strategist))
note the creation of the "fighter mafia"

who is well liked by our SECDEF, check this old article out when our SECDEF was not
exactly too crazy about this Air Force and it's leaders http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1733747,00.html?imw=Y

Robin Olds was the person I immediately thought of - the founder of the Wolf Pack there at Kunsan, Comparing his story to the other 'Wolf's which have served since, they are just mere imitators. The ultimate "sanitized" 'Wolf" I experienced was when I was there in 2004 and the base commander pushed his religious agenda as a whole. It was as if the "Christian Mafia" had taken over the place by force practically....

Gunner007
01-26-2010, 03:37 PM
One of the big things i can look back over the years and compare and add to your questioning is this. I came in "back in the good ole days" and there is something worth noting that you hit on. The Gulf War came and went and for the most part the deployments to ONW & OSW affected only a small % of the AF and even then our rotation schedule was pretty slow compared to todays tempo.

We did spend more time grilling off the tailgate of a truck in the parking lot after work, fishing, etc... I think whats changed is partially like you mentioned the AF expects us to produce countless hours of volunteer, school, & PT crap but there are a few other factors. LESS PEOPLE! We are expected to work more hours and fly more sorties with less people. This means people spend more time at work actually working. There is also the OEF & OIF deployments where comparitively a way higher % of people in the AF are deploying now than in the ONW/OSW era i think. Maybe its because there are less people to deploy so people have to go more? Not sure.

What i do know is from my own POV and that of my troops, they spend too much time at work and deployed as it is and not enough with family. Unlike the early 90's, if the work in my shop is done i am chastised for cutting people loose early to spend time with their families. Instead my management tells us NCOIC that we should send our guys to other shops to help them play catch up and do their work. Of course being me, lets just say there are work arounds for that problem and i wont disclose my jedi magic for all to read here. LOL Generally people spend so much time around their coworkers now they are sick of looking at them. All they want to do is go home and relax and maybe take their kids fishing or something.

People are just overworked, over deployed, and fed up! Cant say i blame them.

VMX
01-26-2010, 08:11 PM
One of the big things i can look back over the years and compare and add to your questioning is this. I came in "back in the good ole days" and there is something worth noting that you hit on. The Gulf War came and went and for the most part the deployments to ONW & OSW affected only a small % of the AF and even then our rotation schedule was pretty slow compared to todays tempo.

We did spend more time grilling off the tailgate of a truck in the parking lot after work, fishing, etc... I think whats changed is partially like you mentioned the AF expects us to produce countless hours of volunteer, school, & PT crap but there are a few other factors. LESS PEOPLE! We are expected to work more hours and fly more sorties with less people. This means people spend more time at work actually working. There is also the OEF & OIF deployments where comparitively a way higher % of people in the AF are deploying now than in the ONW/OSW era i think. Maybe its because there are less people to deploy so people have to go more? Not sure.

What i do know is from my own POV and that of my troops, they spend too much time at work and deployed as it is and not enough with family. Unlike the early 90's, if the work in my shop is done i am chastised for cutting people loose early to spend time with their families. Instead my management tells us NCOIC that we should send our guys to other shops to help them play catch up and do their work. Of course being me, lets just say there are work arounds for that problem and i wont disclose my jedi magic for all to read here. LOL Generally people spend so much time around their coworkers now they are sick of looking at them. All they want to do is go home and relax and maybe take their kids fishing or something.

People are just overworked, over deployed, and fed up! Cant say i blame them.

Give this man harumph!

Texpat
01-27-2010, 04:02 AM
management tells us NCOIC that we should send our guys to other shops to help them play catch up and do their work.

From each according to his ability; to each according to his need.

Kinda brings a tear to my eye. Marx would be proud.
The reward for hard work is ... more work.
The punishment for slacking is ... assistance.

Obiwan
01-27-2010, 05:30 AM
No, you're correct. They stopped serving 5-Star meals and started force feeding us dogsh*t, simple as that.

OF COURSE.....ALL the Senior Leadership who experienced the old school fun and joy are now the ones pushing the sh*t onto all the rest of us.

....doesn't seem fair now does it?

We didn't have candy in the chow hall when I was an airman. :eek:

Gunner007
01-27-2010, 01:41 PM
From each according to his ability; to each according to his need.

Kinda brings a tear to my eye. Marx would be proud.
The reward for hard work is ... more work.
The punishment for slacking is ... assistance.

Thats exactly how i look at and why i have devised ways of working around it, in that "gray" area i love so much. LOL

2430 MHz
01-27-2010, 06:56 PM
Technically we cant blame this ALL on the AF

...."work ethic" was a lot different back in the 1950's.

...now its multi-tasking with fools bringing their work issued Blackberry and laptop on a vacation with their family and checking email...etc...

RobotChicken
08-22-2013, 05:07 PM
Technically we cant blame this ALL on the AF

...."work ethic" was a lot different back in the 1950's.

...now its multi-tasking with fools bringing their work issued Blackberry and laptop on a vacation with their family and checking email...etc...

:spy The Ch***Force has come a LONG way(technology=DEVIL)

Absinthe Anecdote
08-22-2013, 05:32 PM
I'm romancing the old threads! never leaving your poor heart alone.

Every night and every day gonna love the hurtin' away

I'm necromancing three year old threads! never leaving your poor heart alone

Every night and every day gonna love the hurtin' away

garhkal
08-22-2013, 06:57 PM
Are your observations more a reflection of a less social American society as a whole? I think so. In the 80s and 90s Americans were friendlier, happier, more secure and had a generally positive outlook and standing in the world.

Not so today. Computers have replaced bowling alleys and bars and hangouts, Job security is far more fragile, Individual purchasing power has slowly eroded since the late 70s. The American dream is in shambles. On the whole, more Americans are cynical, bitter and threatened. The gap between haves and have-nots is ever increasing.

The Air Force is a microcosm of America.

Your observations might also be a by-product of aging. Generally, as you get older, your number of friends dwindles, the freedom and independence of youth is replaced with responsibilities and supervision and deadlines. It's significantly less fun and more stressful.

Of course, this is merely my opinion -- your mileage may vary.

Plus "BITD" people felt 'social' by actually being outside, talking/interating with others.. Now days it seems if you are NOT interwebed, you are antisocial.



We do need to rid the force of the entitlement mentality! Have a NCO in the work center now who is attempting to argue an Airman out of corrective action/punishment because it is going to hurt their career. This Airman has been long overdue for the hammer to drop on them too and this NCO still wants to fend for their "right" to have a chance to make Staff first time. And even the SNCO who is finally dropping the hammer has often been more concerned with being friends with this particular Airman.

WE need to rid society of it first, before we stand a chance in he(( of getting the military to rid itself of that.



I retired an E7. My "tell it like it is" attitude didn't stop a single promotion. So we all have choices to make, I made mine and served as the best way I knew how.

What choices are you going to make?
That might be a micronysm of what branch you were in. I know 2 people in the Navy who were like that, a heck of a lot better qualified/skilled that consistently got overlooked for Chief..


From each according to his ability; to each according to his need.

Kinda brings a tear to my eye. Marx would be proud.
The reward for hard work is ... more work.
The punishment for slacking is ... assistance.

Or the punishment for slacking is nothing..