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Creaminess
11-09-2009, 12:59 PM
This guy's actually been in the job well over a year:

http://www.usma.edu/CSM/CSMbio.asp

OK, now I will say that he's been recruiting and in USAREC jobs over 20 years, but how do you go from a recruiting command job to West Point? If they were looking at putting him somewhere, maybe downrange would have been a good idea.

SailorDave
11-09-2009, 04:47 PM
Perhaps it was a matter of what jobs were open at the time this one came up. I know that, in the Navy, even if you wanted to go to a deployable unit, if there were no vacancies projected for your transfer month, you would be sent wherever there was a slot.

Could he have fought for one ? Sure. If he was that gung ho. But think about it. He's already a CSM. He can't get promoted any higher. What is the career enhancement incentive for him to be close to retirement and voluntarily head off to somewhere where he could be severely injured or killed ? That he missed his combat tours early in his career is something to talk about, but at this stage, why push your luck ? I'll bet his family was putting pressure on him to stay out of the hot zone for his (possibly) last tour, also.

Creaminess
11-10-2009, 05:28 AM
Perhaps it was a matter of what jobs were open at the time this one came up. I know that, in the Navy, even if you wanted to go to a deployable unit, if there were no vacancies projected for your transfer month, you would be sent wherever there was a slot.

Could he have fought for one ? Sure. If he was that gung ho. But think about it. He's already a CSM. He can't get promoted any higher. What is the career enhancement incentive for him to be close to retirement and voluntarily head off to somewhere where he could be severely injured or killed ? That he missed his combat tours early in his career is something to talk about, but at this stage, why push your luck ? I'll bet his family was putting pressure on him to stay out of the hot zone for his (possibly) last tour, also.

I agree with what you're saying, but I think the Army made a bad decision by putting him in this position, just as I do with the CSM who's the commandant of the US Army's drill sergeant school. In this case, this guy is the CSM at West Point, where upon graduation, cadets are commissioned and sent to units with which they will likely deploy into harm's way. What kind of impression does it leave on a 22-year-old West Point graduate, now a new 2LT, when the CSM at your school has done well over 20 years without a deployment?

I'm not knocking this guy's resume when it comes to all the time he's spent as a recruiter and in recruiting commands, as that is a thankless job that often demands long duty hours. But if he was due to PCS and didn't want to retire, the Army should have put him somewhere that wouldn't have been as much in the limelight as the position at the USMA.

I will dispute one point you made: If he wasn't ready to retire, you asked why he should voluntarily put himself in harm's way. Well, many Soldiers (and servicemembers in the other branches, as well) don't get the "choice" of whether they deploy or not; it is decided for them. Whether he's actively dodging deployments is up for debate, but if the impression is there in somebody's mind that this is the case, that's all that matters; perception is reality. No senior leader in the Army who is fully capable of deploying should not have at least one OIF or OEF deployment to his or her credit. If they don't, they leave themselves open for criticism because so many others have multiple deployments to their names. A basic leadership tenet is not asking one of your Soldiers to do something you're not willing to do yourself. When this CSM is in this position, at a school where future Army officers are being trained and groomed for eventual deployment into harm's way, it gives the "do as I say, not as I do" impression.

SailorDave
11-10-2009, 05:33 AM
I will dispute one point you made: If he wasn't ready to retire, you asked why he should voluntarily put himself in harm's way. Well, many Soldiers (and servicemembers in the other branches, as well) don't get the "choice" of whether they deploy or not; it is decided for them. Whether he's actively dodging deployments is up for debate, but if the impression is there in somebody's mind that this is the case, that's all that matters; perception is reality. No senior leader in the Army who is fully capable of deploying should not have at least one OIF or OEF deployment to his or her credit. If they don't, they leave themselves open for criticism because so many others have multiple deployments to their names. A basic leadership tenet is not asking one of your Soldiers to do something you're not willing to do yourself. When this CSM is in this position, at a school where future Army officers are being trained and groomed for eventual deployment into harm's way, it gives the "do as I say, not as I do" impression.

What I'm getting at is that if he had a choice, which he must have or he'd have been on his way to the desert, why would he voluntarily take the desert over a cushy job at West Point ? Assuming he had a choice.

Creaminess
11-10-2009, 05:53 AM
What I'm getting at is that if he had a choice, which he must have or he'd have been on his way to the desert, why would he voluntarily take the desert over a cushy job at West Point ? Assuming he had a choice.

That's the problem: He shouldn't have had a choice. And I should clarify that I'm not stating he chose that job. For all I know, he was just told he was going there and that was that. I have no idea whether he was given any options.

My whole point is that when you put a senior leader, such as this guy or the CSM at the drill sergeant school, into high-visibility positions and they have never deployed, they should expect some Soldiers to question those assignments. I think it's a bad idea for the Army to put people into jobs where we're developing the next generation of leaders (West Point) or Soldiers (basic combat training), who should expect to be sent downrange, when those senior leaders themselves have never been there.

I don't care how long somebody has served or what positions they've held. There is absolutely no substitute for deployments, and there is no number of NTC/JRTC/JMTC rotations that can realistically replicate deployments.

MSMUROTC
11-10-2009, 12:16 PM
I am a hater with the best of them but I disagree with calling this guy out for not being a combat vet.

In all fairness to this guy, if you read his bio he converted to the recuiter MOS over a decade ago. That MOS is a non-deployable MOS.

The only other options would be:
1. USAREC deploys personnel to combat zones (I don't know, maybe to be unit re-up personnel?) ... but again, that's echelons above this guy
2. This guy would reclass to a deployable MOS as a sergeant major so he could get deployed.
3. It's not really realistic / fair to have the recruiter MOS somehow capped at E-8 or something. I don't see why anyone / anyone good would convert to that MOS if they couldn't get promoted in it.

So, I don't think it's really reasonable or fair to hate on THIS guy, but this a unique situation.

Creaminess
11-10-2009, 01:09 PM
I am a hater with the best of them but I disagree with calling this guy out for not being a combat vet.

In all fairness to this guy, if you read his bio he converted to the recuiter MOS over a decade ago. That MOS is a non-deployable MOS.

The only other options would be:
1. USAREC deploys personnel to combat zones (I don't know, maybe to be unit re-up personnel?) ... but again, that's echelons above this guy
2. This guy would reclass to a deployable MOS as a sergeant major so he could get deployed.
3. It's not really realistic / fair to have the recruiter MOS somehow capped at E-8 or something. I don't see why anyone / anyone good would convert to that MOS if they couldn't get promoted in it.

So, I don't think it's really reasonable or fair to hate on THIS guy, but this a unique situation.

I realize he's held a recruiter MOS for a number of years. Believe it's actually closer to 20 years, and I tip my hat to the guy for sticking with that field for so long. As I stated in one of my previous posts on this thread, recruiting is a tough, thankless job and I'm glad I never had to do it. So from that standpoint, yes, the guy HAS done a lot in his career.

I also realize that recruiters do not deploy. Totally understand that. But I don't think it was the right choice to put him in this position, nor for CSM King to be the drill sergeant school commandant. Again, if you're the senior NCO in a job that is producing the latest crop of officers for the Army, as this man is, then you should have deployment experience. Similarly, CSM King doesn't directly instruct basic combat training Soldiers, but she is in charge of the school that develops the drill sergeants who do that job. I'm willing to bet the overwhelming number of drill sergeants on the trail now, as well as those who have been selected for the course and will be going through it in the near future, have at least one deployment.

I'm sure there are plenty of other CSMs who don't have patches from OIF or OEF, and it's likely that many of them are also in the recruiting field. I don't begrudge them that. It's when the Army makes decisions to put these senior leader into high-visibility positions where an NCO of equal rank who has deployed and is at least as qualified for the position, if not moreso, that I think is unfortunate. I will say that perhaps these positions were offered to other CSMs who chose to stay in deployable units prior to these CSMs being placed in those positions. I don't know that and I never will know, and it's not my business. I just don't have love for senior leaders (officer, warrant officer, or NCO) who haven't been downrange. Ask around and you'll find I'm not alone in feeling this way.

MCGYVER
11-10-2009, 01:25 PM
That's funny, I could have sworn we had a recruiting/retention NCO (Master Sergeant) in my Regiment last time we were down range.

Creaminess
11-10-2009, 01:38 PM
That's funny, I could have sworn we had a recruiting/retention NCO (Master Sergeant) in my Regiment last time we were down range.

Likely you had a retention NCO. Recruiters are MOS 79R, but retention NCOs are MOS 79S. Or that's what it used to be. Think it's maybe 42-series now. Either way, they're different MOSs. Recruiters don't deploy, but I believe (and I could be wrong) that you have to have previously been a recruiter to become a retention NCO. I'm not talking like battalion reenlistment NCOs, who can be any MOS; I'm talking about those with the actual retention NCO MOS.

DogPile12
11-10-2009, 04:00 PM
Like JFK said about WW2, "Life is unfair." Some served in the USA the entire time, others served in the South Pacific.

This CSM's destiny was unusual due to his recruiting career, which I don't envy. Good luck to him at USMA. Sounds like a great assignment for anyone.

cobra6
11-17-2009, 08:17 PM
This guy's actually been in the job well over a year:

http://www.usma.edu/CSM/CSMbio.asp

OK, now I will say that he's been recruiting and in USAREC jobs over 20 years, but how do you go from a recruiting command job to West Point? If they were looking at putting him somewhere, maybe downrange would have been a good idea.

Command Sgt. Maj. Mahoney’s awards and decorations include the Legion of Merit, the Bronze Star Medal, the Meritorious Service Medal, the Afghanistan Campaign Medal, the Iraq Campaign Medal, the Kosovo Campaign Medal, the Multinational Force and Observers Medal, and the NATO Medal. He has earned the Combat Infantryman’s Badge, the Expert Infantryman’s Badge, the Ranger Tab, and the Master Parachutist Badge.

If you are refering to this guy you eed to relook the photo...CIB and Bronze star with associated campaign medals...he has been to combat fellas...(I clicked on your link)

MCGYVER
11-17-2009, 11:04 PM
Somebody changed the link. That is not the same guy it was a couple weeks ago.

ramrod
11-17-2009, 11:09 PM
That's funny. Yeah, it was some career counselor I think.

Creaminess
11-18-2009, 11:31 AM
That's funny. Yeah, it was some career counselor I think.

It was a former recruiter. Can't recall that guy's name now, but I see he apparently isn't there anymore.

cobra6
11-18-2009, 02:35 PM
Ok, I feel better...I was totally freaked out when I saw the link...but I concur if the guy hasn't been to combat as an E9..he needs to have his tail thrown out....especially when we have been at war for 8 years now...but then again...I have seen alot of Field grade officers who have a slick right sleeve...having 4 tours...(and being a Field Grade) i have absolutely no respect for anyone O4 and above with no combat service.

Creaminess
11-19-2009, 06:24 AM
Ok, I feel better...I was totally freaked out when I saw the link...but I concur if the guy hasn't been to combat as an E9..he needs to have his tail thrown out....especially when we have been at war for 8 years now...but then again...I have seen alot of Field grade officers who have a slick right sleeve...having 4 tours...(and being a Field Grade) i have absolutely no respect for anyone O4 and above with no combat service.

Not sure where you are right now, but I'm stationed in Germany and see this a lot. And the worst is when I see AFN commercials where the person shown speaking is an officer from the European Regional Medical Command (ERMC). Most of them are field grades and above, and very few have patches. Now, I realize that there are some medical specialties that are very small fields and maybe they don't deploy MUCH, but we've been at war for 8 years now. If you've been in that whole time and haven't been downrange, there's a good chance that's because you're trying not to go. That really annoys me.

SailorDave
11-19-2009, 06:45 AM
Remember, if those are doctors in that AFN commercial, they could have come in at O3 or above and that's their first tour.

MSMUROTC
11-19-2009, 09:11 AM
"i have absolutely no respect for anyone O4 and above with no combat service."

Yea, me either. I agree with you. But in this instance, the guy's in a non-deployable MOS. It's not really his fault. It's not like he's dodging it.

cobra6
11-19-2009, 02:55 PM
"i have absolutely no respect for anyone O4 and above with no combat service."

Yea, me either. I agree with you. But in this instance, the guy's in a non-deployable MOS. It's not really his fault. It's not like he's dodging it.

Ok, that is a new one....what MOS is non-deployable???? I never heard of that one.

MSMUROTC
11-19-2009, 05:33 PM
... 79R, recruiter ...

while I don't think there's anywhere that it says "79R is non-deployable," to my knowledge, it is not an MOS that is authorized on ANY MTOE document, and I don't see how a 79R would just up and get themselves assigned to an MTOE unit.

Creaminess
11-20-2009, 06:16 AM
Remember, if those are doctors in that AFN commercial, they could have come in at O3 or above and that's their first tour.

That's true. However, some of those I see are COLs and LTCs with no combat patches. Even if they come in as a CPT, by the time they're a MAJ, they should have deployed.

clem157
11-24-2009, 06:31 PM
The Army needs to be a little more selective in terms of assignments at the Senior Level and Seniors need to accept responsibility for their actions. If you aree a Senior NCO and you have not deployed then you have no experience to offer to soldiers. I did 300 years in the Army and retired as a MSG 11B. I am from the old school and certain things you do not change. The worst thing the Army did was to take away the Specialist rank. Renaming the Infantry Center the Maneuver Center is another joke and a slap in the face of Infantryman. Putting a female in charge of the Drill Sergeant Academy is also a travisity. Contrary to popular belief if you are not Combat Arms Infantry, Armor, or Artillery then you are not a soldier you are a service member! The Army gave service members a litrtle badge similar to the CIB in order to maintain it's numbers. We need to go back to the old days a soldier does what he is told and no more. Quit babying these kids and explaining everything to them. Bring back the good old days.

chucksnee
11-24-2009, 06:56 PM
Contrary to popular belief if you are not Combat Arms Infantry, Armor, or Artillery then you are not a soldier you are a service member!


Wow....really? I'm not a Soldier? Because I was not Comabt Infantry....

Just glad you are no longer in the ranks and teaching that kinda of jibberish....

When did the specalist rank go away? Do you mean corporal?

MCGYVER
11-24-2009, 08:02 PM
I fully concur with you clem157, if you aint Combat Arms, you are purely support. Not that supporters are unimportant, after all, where would pro sports teams be without their fans?

imported_LOAL-D
11-24-2009, 08:14 PM
I fully concur with you clem157, if you aint Combat Arms, you are purely support. Not that supporters are unimportant, after all, where would pro sports teams be without their fans?

You mean athletic supporters???

MCGYVER
11-24-2009, 08:31 PM
LOL, yessirree Bob.

Gold_Reaper
11-25-2009, 04:30 PM
The Army needs to be a little more selective in terms of assignments at the Senior Level and Seniors need to accept responsibility for their actions.
Agree 100%



If you aree a Senior NCO and you have not deployed then you have no experience to offer to soldiers. I did 300 years in the Army and retired as a MSG 11B. I am from the old school and certain things you do not change. The worst thing the Army did was to take away the Specialist rank.

The "specialist" 4,5,6 etc. ranks do exist. They're Warrant Officers now, and that's a far better structure than the specialist ranks ever were, period.



Renaming the Infantry Center the Maneuver Center is another joke and a slap in the face of Infantryman. Putting a female in charge of the Drill Sergeant Academy is also a travisity. Contrary to popular belief if you are not Combat Arms Infantry, Armor, or Artillery then you are not a soldier you are a service member!

A female being the DS Academy CSM isn't a travesty, it's a milestone. The travesty is the fact that she doesn't have a combat patch (SSI/FTWS). As for me being a service member since I'm a LOG Officer, tell that to my transporter 88Ms who died on the road to bring you your sh*t.



The Army gave service members a litrtle badge similar to the CIB in order to maintain it's numbers. We need to go back to the old days a soldier does what he is told and no more. Quit babying these kids and explaining everything to them. Bring back the good old days.

Just because someone is in a force sustainment branch doesn't mean they don't deserve a badge, and I'm sure it wasn't a factor to maintain its numbers. That's just...flawed logic.

Turds from every generation complain about what's wrong with the Army. The question is, what are you going to do to fix it if you feel that the current system is broken?

MSMUROTC
11-28-2009, 12:06 AM
RE: Badges -- I'm an Infantryman and I think it's funny when Infantrymen complain about badges because who are the biggest girl scouts in the Army? WE ARE!!!! Almost all the tabs and badges are so much easier to get if you're in the infantry or are almost exclusively for infantry (i.e. who else gets HALO? Like five other people?). You VERY rarely see someone walking around with more than 3 unless they're a fire supporter or cav scout.

imported_INGUARD
11-28-2009, 01:48 PM
Agree 100%



The "specialist" 4,5,6 etc. ranks do exist. They're Warrant Officers now, and that's a far better structure than the specialist ranks ever were, period.





Thats very funny. Warrant Officers have been around for a very long time and I can assure you that those Specialist ranks were not eliminated in order to fill the Warrant ranks lol.

Also, you are talking about the female Colonel on AFN and believe me, she couldnt move up the ranks if she wasnt very competent and good at what she does.

Remember, operational experience is a big factor for the DA promotion boards for senior enlisted and field grade officers. If they were not sent to an MTOE unit; it was because their branch managers moved them to slots that they were needed in. But on paper in their OERs, they have to be exceptional.

Every senior leader that I know is trying to get deployed to get that operational experience and if it doesnt happen; its not on their own accord unless they are non-deployable.

I am on my second tour right now and would like to be sent to a TDA unit for a rest. But if isnt in the cards; then so be it.

Signed,

A Warrant.

Gold_Reaper
11-28-2009, 07:56 PM
Thats very funny. Warrant Officers have been around for a very long time and I can assure you that those Specialist ranks were not eliminated in order to fill the Warrant ranks lol.


It may be funny, but what happened to the last SPC4,5,6,7s that were left in the Army? I could be wrong, and if I am, I'm hereby humbled and stand corrected.



Also, you are talking about the female Colonel on AFN and believe me, she couldnt move up the ranks if she wasnt very competent and good at what she does.


Personally, I don't have any idea who you guys are talking about, nor did I ever refer to this COL. Another post, perhaps?



Remember, operational experience is a big factor for the DA promotion boards for senior enlisted and field grade officers. If they were not sent to an MTOE unit; it was because their branch managers moved them to slots that they were needed in. But on paper in their OERs, they have to be exceptional.


Your OER doesn't have to be exceptional in order to get away with sham'baggery. I know plenty of lackluster officers who get with their branch manager to get them where they want to go, regardless of what's on their OER. Golf Swing, Politics, and the Good Ol' Boys Club is in full effect.



Every senior leader that I know is trying to get deployed to get that operational experience and if it doesnt happen; its not on their own accord unless they are non-deployable.


I'm sure you're working with a small sample there, grasshopper. How many 1SGs and LTCs and above do you know? Really. I can assure you if someone doesn't want to deploy, I'd bet a month's pay that it's probably on their own accord. How many people get that lucky to completely avoid a deployment all together in this day and age? Hell we've only been at war for, oh nearly a DECADE NOW? If you're a brand new PFC or LT, there's a possibility that you may never see what this place looks like. If you're a frickin CSM and you have no idea what it's like to be here, then how dare you stand before trainees to send them off to war.



I am on my second tour right now and would like to be sent to a TDA unit for a rest. But if isnt in the cards; then so be it.


Join the club. I'm in my chu right now in beautiful former Mesopotamia. I've enjoyed the sites and fireworks thus far.



Signed,

A Warrant.

Signed, the Gold Reaper

armysoks
12-01-2009, 10:11 AM
I fully concur with you clem157, if you aint Combat Arms, you are purely support. Not that supporters are unimportant, after all, where would pro sports teams be without their fans?

How typicaly ignorant, I can recall 365x2 times I saw all 3 of those listed sitting on towers while the 31B's were out working in the streets. I know you guys hate it when were better armed, better vehicles and arn't full of HS drop outs and ex-cons.

MCGYVER
12-01-2009, 01:23 PM
armysocks, I was honestly kidding because I thought that clem was joking so I was following suit. :) Lighten up.

502nd
12-05-2009, 06:02 AM
How typicaly ignorant, I can recall 365x2 times I saw all 3 of those listed sitting on towers while the 31B's were out working in the streets. I know you guys hate it when were better armed, better vehicles and arn't full of HS drop outs and ex-cons.

Are you serious. Yeah you might have seen some grunts sitting on a tower but the overwhelming majority of the Infantry is out there doing its job. The majority of the MP's I have seen in my 365x3 deployments were handing out tickets, processing and guarding detainees, convoy security, sitting on towers and serving on PTT teams. Yes, there are MP's that are patrolling streets, but they aren't land owners. So when sh*t hits the fan, and a couple hundred insurgents decide they own the block, nobody ask where is the nearest MP unit. And as far as your better armed and better vehicles remark, I would like a couple of shots of whatever made you say that. Or did MP's start getting Bradley's with a 25mm cannon, Strykers, Javelins, TOW missile, 120mm mortars(or any kind of mortars for that matter) and fire support in the last 30 days since I left the Army. So what better weapons and vehicles do you have, because we also have mark 19's and M2's. The only difference is that we actually train on the full employment of our weapon systems, and not just how to set one up and clean it. That's why the MP's I worked with didn't know how to properly do a range card and concepts like PDF, TRP's, covering dead space and weapon rates of fire just confused them. Also, somebody who is trying to call Infantryman idiots should know how to spell "aren't"," typically is spelled with two L's and should also know that "drop out" used in this context is one word.

VOA
12-07-2009, 12:08 PM
Hear Hear. Since when do the MPs work on par with the Infantry in theater? And when did you patrol anything other than a Green Zone that the 11Bs, 11Cs, and 13Fs didn't already clear out for you. How many times have you guys had to cry for daddy to come bail you out when you got yourselves in over your head? Also, I know a LOT more high school dropout MPs than I do 11Bs.

VOA
12-07-2009, 12:09 PM
ALCON,

Sorry I know that last post was off topic. It had to be addressed though.

imported_INGUARD
12-07-2009, 04:49 PM
It may be funny, but what happened to the last SPC4,5,6,7s that were left in the Army? I could be wrong, and if I am, I'm hereby humbled and stand corrected.



Personally, I don't have any idea who you guys are talking about, nor did I ever refer to this COL. Another post, perhaps?



Your OER doesn't have to be exceptional in order to get away with sham'baggery. I know plenty of lackluster officers who get with their branch manager to get them where they want to go, regardless of what's on their OER. Golf Swing, Politics, and the Good Ol' Boys Club is in full effect.



I'm sure you're working with a small sample there, grasshopper. How many 1SGs and LTCs and above do you know? Really. I can assure you if someone doesn't want to deploy, I'd bet a month's pay that it's probably on their own accord. How many people get that lucky to completely avoid a deployment all together in this day and age? Hell we've only been at war for, oh nearly a DECADE NOW? If you're a brand new PFC or LT, there's a possibility that you may never see what this place looks like. If you're a frickin CSM and you have no idea what it's like to be here, then how dare you stand before trainees to send them off to war.



Join the club. I'm in my chu right now in beautiful former Mesopotamia. I've enjoyed the sites and fireworks thus far.



Signed, the Gold Reaper


Hey gold, I just made a reference to your SPC4,5,7 comment. Everything else was extraneous.

But since you commented on my remarks allow me to respond.

The female COL is shown on AFN and she doesnt have a combat patch. My point is that her and the CSM that is in charge at Benning moved up in position based on their merits in which a deployment was not necessary.

My OER remark was again in reference to their promotions. But remember if a Commissioned Officer is passed over 2 times for promotion they get the boot. Obviously that pertains to O-3 and above. Branch has no oversight on that but places in the needs of the Army. I have seem officers with numerous deployments work with branch to get an assigment that works for their benefit.

Well, this grasshopper has been in for 20 years and seen alot. I am in a top heavy unit (majority O-3s and above and got a good grasp of opinions. But yes, nobody here has a view on the total Army experience.

I agree with you on the CSM observation. When I was an NCO in BNCOC our Senior SGL havent had no combat experience and screaming at us about vehicle load plans. Yeah, we had an opinion about that.

Well I am in ASTAN now and fought in 05/06 in Iraq so stay safe and enjoy your tour.

imported_ROBERT4
12-23-2009, 06:56 PM
This equates to incompetence, at the backbone level. There are hundreds of them, and they are quick to demoralize and sling slurs at those with quadruple or more deployments. At this juncture this is a CSM, in need of stepping down. So, do the right thing, leave it on the table and walk away. You have been weighed and measure and found lacking.

imported_oih82w8
12-23-2009, 07:28 PM
I have not read all of the previous comments, but what did he do to receive the Bronze Star? Isn't that a war-time award equivalent to the MSM?

CROWDAVW
02-10-2010, 02:06 PM
Contrary to popular belief if you are not Combat Arms Infantry, Armor, or Artillery then you are not a soldier you are a service member!

Tell that to the Signal NCO's, Supply NCO's / Officers and Medical NCO's who have served on Transition Teams right next to those Combat Arms Soldiers. For one year, each and everyone of those Soldiers are 11B's first; then did their own MOS second. Tell that to the families of the Soldiers who have been killed who were not in a Combat Arms MOS. Your comments and those comments of your fellow Soldiers who bad mouth any Soldier regardless of their MOS who has either given his/her life in the service of our country or who volunteer to serve and defend us is a disgrace.

CROWDAVW
02-10-2010, 02:10 PM
One of the replies mention that the original link has been changed; this is a different CSM.

former31B
02-12-2010, 10:29 PM
If you're a frickin CSM and you have no idea what it's like to be here, then how dare you stand before trainees to send them off to war.

Well said. When first termers ETS with 2-3 combat tours, I start questioning the integrity of senior NCOs and officers who haven't deployed. We have been in Afghanistan since 2001 and Iraq since 2003; some units have deployed 5-6 times. This isn't Grenada, Panama, or even the first Gulf War, where you could have been in BNCOC the entire time.

If the Army stopped promoting people without combat experience beyond E7 and O4, I'd bet you'd find a few people being more proactive (more like not shirking) in getting to the sandbox.

Hawk Driver
02-24-2010, 05:22 AM
The problem with making combat experience a requirement for promotion is that it promotes a minimum standard that is unhelpful. During the Vietnam conflict, this was the case. Commanders were rotated into command slots in theater to get their "ticket punched", that is, to do the absolute minimum amount of combat time to satisfy the requirements for promotion then head out.

This creates a selfish climate of worrying about your career ahead of your Soldier's. It also creates a lack of continuity, as each commander will no doubt implement their own changes and policies, which would change on a more frequent basis.

Combat experience is desirable for a Soldier, but it is not a requirement. What about all the Soldier who served from 1975-1989? There were few combat operations during that time, and those that did happen were small and quick. Are you saying that all of the Soldiers who joined the Army after Vietnam, and didn't participate in Grenada, Panama, or Desert Storm were substandard because they lacked combat experience?

How about the Soldiers who enlisted in 1919? By 1939 they'd have been in 20 years and I'm sure some of them had risen to the higher ranks in the Army. Should they have all resigned since they hadn't seen combat?

MADAMESINCERE
02-24-2010, 07:31 AM
The problem with making combat experience a requirement for promotion is that it promotes a minimum standard that is unhelpful. During the Vietnam conflict, this was the case. Commanders were rotated into command slots in theater to get their "ticket punched", that is, to do the absolute minimum amount of combat time to satisfy the requirements for promotion then head out.

This creates a selfish climate of worrying about your career ahead of your Soldier's. It also creates a lack of continuity, as each commander will no doubt implement their own changes and policies, which would change on a more frequent basis.

Combat experience is desirable for a Soldier, but it is not a requirement. What about all the Soldier who served from 1975-1989? There were few combat operations during that time, and those that did happen were small and quick. Are you saying that all of the Soldiers who joined the Army after Vietnam, and didn't participate in Grenada, Panama, or Desert Storm were substandard because they lacked combat experience?

How about the Soldiers who enlisted in 1919? By 1939 they'd have been in 20 years and I'm sure some of them had risen to the higher ranks in the Army. Should they have all resigned since they hadn't seen combat?

That was back then though. NOW, with the current OPTEMPO, there is no reason why people can't get downrange. I would go one better than what a previous poster said. Soldiers shouldn't make E7 or 04 if they haven't deployed (or at least have a VALID reason why they didn't).

MCGYVER
02-24-2010, 09:48 AM
The problem with making combat experience a requirement for promotion is that it promotes a minimum standard that is unhelpful. During the Vietnam conflict, this was the case. Commanders were rotated into command slots in theater to get their "ticket punched", that is, to do the absolute minimum amount of combat time to satisfy the requirements for promotion then head out.

This creates a selfish climate of worrying about your career ahead of your Soldier's. It also creates a lack of continuity, as each commander will no doubt implement their own changes and policies, which would change on a more frequent basis.

Combat experience is desirable for a Soldier, but it is not a requirement. What about all the Soldier who served from 1975-1989? There were few combat operations during that time, and those that did happen were small and quick. Are you saying that all of the Soldiers who joined the Army after Vietnam, and didn't participate in Grenada, Panama, or Desert Storm were substandard because they lacked combat experience?

How about the Soldiers who enlisted in 1919? By 1939 they'd have been in 20 years and I'm sure some of them had risen to the higher ranks in the Army. Should they have all resigned since they hadn't seen combat?

Hell yes it makes you a better Soldier than one who doesn't have "combat experience". It's akin to comparing a Soldier with Basic Training to a Soldier without Basic Training. Night and Day.

The ticket punching has gone on since the Army was established in 1775. It's just taken various forms.

For example, you still have groups of senior sergeant majors today that think that a drill sergeant badge makes you a better leader than someone without one and they select you for promotion with that F'd up logic. So, you know how to train new recruits (according to doctrine) but lose three years of MOS proficiency and duck out of two combat deployments makes you a better "Leader"? Wow, only a washed up, crusty ROAD would think some F'd up shit like that.

Besides the fact that basic training has gotten so soft over the last 20 years that drill sergeants are more of a babysitter than a trainer. The line units have to train the dirtbags the recruiters lie to get in and you run through the mill to keep the numbers up.

If you don't have a combat patch and you are a senior leader (of any type) you should be embarrassed. Hell, do a 3 month TDY to a combat zone at an Air Base or staging area just to meet the requirement and get your patch. After all, if you aint cheatin, you aint trying. Right?

imported_INGUARD
02-24-2010, 11:14 AM
I remember when I was an NCO and attended BNCOC. We all had combat patches and our Senior SGL didnt (he never deployed) and he was screaming at us on our load plans, etc, etc.

You should of always heard the under the breath comments lol I hope he has deployed by now.

THE NERVE OF THIS SERGEANT MAJOR! LOL

http://www.army.mil/-images/2009/08/17/48201/size0-army.mil-48201-2009-08-17-180828.jpg

former31B
02-24-2010, 12:31 PM
Combat experience is desirable for a Soldier, but it is not a requirement. What about all the Soldier who served from 1975-1989? There were few combat operations during that time, and those that did happen were small and quick. Are you saying that all of the Soldiers who joined the Army after Vietnam, and didn't participate in Grenada, Panama, or Desert Storm were substandard because they lacked combat experience?

How about the Soldiers who enlisted in 1919? By 1939 they'd have been in 20 years and I'm sure some of them had risen to the higher ranks in the Army. Should they have all resigned since they hadn't seen combat?

The issue isn't simply whether someone has seen combat, it's the integrity of those who haven't. When a substantial number of your peers and subordinates have experienced something, shouldn't we ask that leaders experience it as well?

Today, I doubt that many of these CSMs and senior officers were promoted before the current conflicts started. That is, while the rest of us were making round trips to Iraq and Afghanistan missing families and NCOES opportunities, some of these current CSMs moved from SFC to MSG/1SG to SGM. To say that this happens because one person happens to be at the right place at the right time with no undue influence is bunk.

It is very different from the case Hawk Driver presents where someone goes essentially their entire career without combat opportunities. We will soon have folks retiring having served half of their career during a time of conflict. I can completely understand someone who missed Grenada or Panama. Both of those were limited combat operations of about 30-90 days. They also occurred during a time when the Army had about a gazillion people on active duty.

As I said before, when you have first termers ETSing with 2-3 combat tours, the integrity of senior leaders who haven't deployed is at issue. I find it highly suspect that someone can be in the Army for 20 years, half of that time during a period of not one but TWO active wars, and not deploy due to no fault of their own.

imported_Red Dragon
02-25-2010, 04:22 AM
Having no combat tours is not just an individual shortcoming, but it has a cascade effect, as well. To wit: I was a Platoon Sergeant, and the 2LT came into the situation, and of course attempted to take charge of everything. Even as I tried to explain my ten years of experience versus his ROTC "training", the 2LT continually attempted to gain credibility by telling that his TAC NCO was an Airborne Ranger, Hooah, etc. Of course, I became enamored of the 2LT's association with a real Soldier (not). 2LT Scheisskopf was a complete and total loser, and screwed things up to a degree to which I could only repair after significant commitments of time.

To whom shall the new graduates of the 'point refer? "Yeah, when I was at the Academy, the CSM was a....well, he was hardcore."

A sergeant major in 2010 that has no war tour should not be a sergeant major.

MCGYVER
02-25-2010, 11:14 AM
It's funny when I meet Sergeant Majors and Command Sergeant Majors with no combat patch and the looks they give me when they see mine. It's like hate/envy in their eyes but I know.

imported_INGUARD
02-25-2010, 11:28 AM
It's funny when I meet Sergeant Majors and Command Sergeant Majors with no combat patch and the looks they give me when they see mine. It's like hate/envy in their eyes but I know.

THE NERVE OF THIS SERGEANT MAJOR!! LOL

http://www.army.mil/-images/2009/08/17/48201/size0-army.mil-48201-2009-08-17-180828.jpg

former31B
02-25-2010, 02:43 PM
THE NERVE OF THIS SERGEANT MAJOR! LOL

http://www.army.mil/-images/2009/08/17/48201/size0-army.mil-48201-2009-08-17-180828.jpg

It's alright. He was a drill sergeant and a recritter. He's punched all the right tickets. Unfortunately, too many at the top think DS/Recritter = combat experience. Fortunately, it appears that he is just a pogue SGM.

Creaminess
03-01-2010, 11:28 AM
It's alright. He was a drill sergeant and a recritter. He's punched all the right tickets. Unfortunately, too many at the top think DS/Recritter = combat experience. Fortunately, it appears that he is just a pogue SGM.

He's not even wearing his beret correctly. His crest on his beret is not centered over his eye.

CLVM
08-23-2013, 03:26 AM
Ok, that is a new one....what MOS is non-deployable???? I never heard of that one.



I am a 68R /Veterinary Food Inspector Specialist and I am not deployable . I had a SGM 30 years of service, never deployed.!!!

CLVM
08-23-2013, 03:32 AM
I am a 68R/Veterinary Food Inspector and I am not deployable, I am in a TDA unit. I am a SGT and I never been in the range or never take any military training. We don't have assigned weapons or any type of military equipment. Also, we can work in a Army base, Marines, Navy, Air Force or Coast Guard.

106PADDOCK
08-23-2013, 07:30 AM
I am a 68R/Veterinary Food Inspector and I am not deployable, I am in a TDA unit. I am a SGT and I never been in the range or never take any military training. We don't have assigned weapons or any type of military equipment. Also, we can work in a Army base, Marines, Navy, Air Force or Coast Guard.

I don't know why you are "non-deployable" since Class I items need to have your services worldwide..........There are some serious Class I storage and issue items that exist in the A/O that we are fighting in.

Rizzo77
08-23-2013, 08:15 PM
I am a 68R /Veterinary Food Inspector Specialist and I am not deployable . I had a SGM 30 years of service, never deployed.!!!

I found this description of 68R on GOARMY.com - "The veterinary food inspection specialist inspects food designed for human consumption, while also supervising food inspection and combined veterinary service activities."

Shouldn't ya'll be in Afghanistan inspecting food? Whomever they've got doing it now is doing it wrong, apparently, because I rarely had any solid BMs while in-country. So, I don't know if it was specifically the grub, but it was almost entirely gastronomically unpleasant. Now, I'm no General Eisenhower, but I could certainly see the utility of having 68Rs in theater.

106PADDOCK
08-23-2013, 08:55 PM
I found this description of 68R on GOARMY.com - "The veterinary food inspection specialist inspects food designed for human consumption, while also supervising food inspection and combined veterinary service activities."

Shouldn't ya'll be in Afghanistan inspecting food? Whomever they've got doing it now is doing it wrong, apparently, because I rarely had any solid BMs while in-country. So, I don't know if it was specifically the grub, but it was almost entirely gastronomically unpleasant. Now, I'm no General Eisenhower, but I could certainly see the utility of having 68Rs in theater.


As I stated in my post.....Class I (FOOD) issue/storage points are the domain of this MOS not to mention the inspection of host nation food and drink supply sources, factories, farms , wells, ect! Get your azz on the plane son!!!:aargh4::aargh4::aargh4::aargh4::aargh4::aar gh4:

CLVM
08-23-2013, 09:32 PM
Do you know about TDA units? The people in the Army in regular division don't know about TDA units. We help the garrison not a specific unit. I am in one and we don't have assigned weapons and don't take any Army training like a regular soldier. Just to tell you, I am E5 and the last time I shoot a weapon was in Basic Training. I am assigned by myself in a base working at the Commissary. We inspect the food the commissary receive and the places that sell food on post. There are Food Inspectors also that inspect MREs. Some units have Food Inspectors but you don't see it very often.

106PADDOCK
08-23-2013, 11:02 PM
Well young Sergeant, I spent 25 years in the AMEDD so I know a little about TDA & TO&E medical units. I know that TDA units CAN AND DO send their Soldiers to backfill TO&E units that are deploying. Where do you think doctors and nurses come from when hospitals deploy??? I would hope that as an NCO you would have this basic fund of knowledge about AMEDD TO&E units.........BTW the USAF & US Navy also pulls staff from hospitals to support deployments. If you are really bored or desire to learn.....look up information on AMEDD augmentation units in FM-4-02-18....
Here's a little taste for your consumption young Sergeant of what YOUR MOS does in combat A/O..

• Advise theater logistics units (corps support battalion [CSB], main support battalion
[MSB], division support battalion [DSB], forward support battalion [FSB], and brigade support battalion
[BSB]), ration breakdown point (RBP), and dining facilities (DFACs) on storing subsistence to minimize the
threat of chemical, biological, radiological, and nuclear (CBRN) contamination2-1. Medical Detachment, Veterinary Service, TOE 08440A000
a. Mission. This unit provides veterinary services to all branches of the Services throughout the
AO in the areas of approving commercial food sources; food safety/security/sanitation; food service
sanitation; MWDs and GOAs care; veterinary preventive medicine directed towards endemic zoonotic
diseases and foreign animal disease surveillance/mitigation; and humanitarian civic action programs in
support of all branches of the Services throughout the AO. For Medical Force 2000, L-Series TOE
veterinary units, see Appendix B.


Your NCO "leaders" should be educating you not some retired NCO.....I suspect they are too busy hiding from deployments and don't want you to realise there is a need and place for you and THEM in the fight!!!

efmbman
08-23-2013, 11:13 PM
Do you know about TDA units? The people in the Army in regular division don't know about TDA units. We help the garrison not a specific unit. I am in one and we don't have assigned weapons and don't take any Army training like a regular soldier. Just to tell you, I am E5 and the last time I shoot a weapon was in Basic Training. I am assigned by myself in a base working at the Commissary. We inspect the food the commissary receive and the places that sell food on post. There are Food Inspectors also that inspect MREs. Some units have Food Inspectors but you don't see it very often.

A word to make you wiser... you will find many experienced professionals from varying backgrounds participating in these forums. It would be incorrect to make assumptions that you are the only person that knows something. You might do well to take your experience here as an opportunity to learn something (for which you have demonstrated a need) and get differing points of view on various issues in the military today.

The advice is yours to take or ignore.

ImpliedConsent
08-24-2013, 12:12 AM
I am a 68R/Veterinary Food Inspector and I am not deployable, I am in a TDA unit. I am a SGT and I never been in the range or never take any military training. We don't have assigned weapons or any type of military equipment. Also, we can work in a Army base, Marines, Navy, Air Force or Coast Guard.

Well now that you have already been thoroughly schooled by Soldiers who have seen 12yrs of armed conflict (just to set the timeline correctly), let me in on a little other secret. Resurrecting 4yr old threads will do you no good. How the f&#* did you find it anyway? You are spending way too much time on the internet and not enough time inspecting our damned food (or animal food - I'm confused). Get you @$$ back in the kitchen and 68R that stuff. Better yet, go to your non-deployed CSM and ask him for a re-class to 11B or transfer to a deploying unit. This $#!+ we're eating here in theater is really meant for the K9's at the vets office.

Back OT - OK, now its getting hairier for the non-deployed senior "O"s and "E"s - they're shipping crap outa here faster than hell. There are units specifically created to do this (CS..somethin-somethin). Hell, they even have their own "we're getting this crap outa here" velcro patches. I give them the crusty eye as they pass by in case they're looking to take shit from us. We're still doing what those punk-ass non-deployed senior -ahem- 'leaders' are afraid to do (if you are reading this and that statement applies to you - re-friggin-tire - NOW. I will be your boss one day and you will not like my demeaning tone - you'll file an IG or cry to an EO - I promise).

...dear sweet slippery baby jeezus...where the fk are my meds...

Dis_Grunt_Led
08-25-2013, 12:04 AM
Wow. My head hurts after trying to read through this thread. Look folks - combat patch, no combat patch, deployments, no deployments - who cares!? Some people wear a patch/deployed and didn't do S**T! In too many instances the patch/CAB/BSMV, even PH doesn't mean anything close to what people assume it means. Going back to the original point: who cares if the West Point CSM never deployed. None of the cadets will care. The guy's got a lot of time in uniform and there are only so many senior NCO positions available. Besides, if he actually has no combat experience and/or actually did dodge deploying after all these years, I'd rather he stay at West Point where he can't jack things up than force him overseas where his decisions could do harm.

sharkhunter
08-26-2013, 08:52 PM
It could be worse...
In the AF, we had an E9 who never deployed, and how did she make E9...she played the flute in the AF band! After 18 years of playing the flute and making it to E9, she was forced out of the band and reassigned to a Chief's position in squadron. She was really lost at what she was suppose to do! She constantly called other chiefs and asked for advice on all sorts of items. Whenever someone was waiting to see the CC or the First Sergeant, you can hear her loudly on the phone "Hi, Chief XXXX its Chief YYYY, listen can you give me your advice on this...." When we asked why we were undermanned, her response was "that's above my pay grade!" Really? You're a Chief, give us some kind of answer.
But everytime there was a Commander's Call, she was always the one to lead the squadron in the squadron cheer and give the loudest motivation speechs and words of encouragement. To the younger Airmen, she was a great chief. To those that knew where she came from, she just pretended to be a chief.

BRUWIN
08-30-2013, 12:09 PM
It could be worse...
In the AF, we had an E9 who never deployed, and how did she make E9...she played the flute in the AF band! After 18 years of playing the flute and making it to E9, she was forced out of the band and reassigned to a Chief's position in squadron. She was really lost at what she was suppose to do! She constantly called other chiefs and asked for advice on all sorts of items. Whenever someone was waiting to see the CC or the First Sergeant, you can hear her loudly on the phone "Hi, Chief XXXX its Chief YYYY, listen can you give me your advice on this...." When we asked why we were undermanned, her response was "that's above my pay grade!" Really? You're a Chief, give us some kind of answer.
But everytime there was a Commander's Call, she was always the one to lead the squadron in the squadron cheer and give the loudest motivation speechs and words of encouragement. To the younger Airmen, she was a great chief. To those that knew where she came from, she just pretended to be a chief.

If she came to my unit I would have appreciated the fact the she has a diverse background. Ex-flute players can bring something to the table at any unit.

MisterBen
09-09-2013, 01:30 AM
Well young Sergeant, I spent 25 years in the AMEDD so I know a little about TDA & TO&E medical units. I know that TDA units CAN AND DO send their Soldiers to backfill TO&E units that are deploying. Where do you think doctors and nurses come from when hospitals deploy??? I would hope that as an NCO you would have this basic fund of knowledge about AMEDD TO&E units.........BTW the USAF & US Navy also pulls staff from hospitals to support deployments. If you are really bored or desire to learn.....look up information on AMEDD augmentation units in FM-4-02-18....
Here's a little taste for your consumption young Sergeant of what YOUR MOS does in combat A/O..

• Advise theater logistics units (corps support battalion [CSB], main support battalion
[MSB], division support battalion [DSB], forward support battalion [FSB], and brigade support battalion
[BSB]), ration breakdown point (RBP), and dining facilities (DFACs) on storing subsistence to minimize the
threat of chemical, biological, radiological, and nuclear (CBRN) contamination2-1. Medical Detachment, Veterinary Service, TOE 08440A000
a. Mission. This unit provides veterinary services to all branches of the Services throughout the
AO in the areas of approving commercial food sources; food safety/security/sanitation; food service
sanitation; MWDs and GOAs care; veterinary preventive medicine directed towards endemic zoonotic
diseases and foreign animal disease surveillance/mitigation; and humanitarian civic action programs in
support of all branches of the Services throughout the AO. For Medical Force 2000, L-Series TOE
veterinary units, see Appendix B.


Your NCO "leaders" should be educating you not some retired NCO.....I suspect they are too busy hiding from deployments and don't want you to realise there is a need and place for you and THEM in the fight!!!

+1. The term is called PROFIS. He might think that USDA just inspects the food downrange.

http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r601_142.pdf

http://www.fas.usda.gov/icd/drd/afghanistan.asp

desert beast
10-12-2014, 08:45 PM
Likely you had a retention NCO. Recruiters are MOS 79R, but retention NCOs are MOS 79S. Or that's what it used to be. Think it's maybe 42-series now. Either way, they're different MOSs. Recruiters don't deploy, but I believe (and I could be wrong) that you have to have previously been a recruiter to become a retention NCO. I'm not talking like battalion reenlistment NCOs, who can be any MOS; I'm talking about those with the actual retention NCO MOS.

I must correct you regarding retention NCO's and 79S. A retention NCO is an appointed duty at the company or battalion level for an NCO. A 79S is a school trained Career Counselor for which I am one and yes, we do deploy with our units unlike a 79R, Recruiter who has nobody to recruit in the OEF/OIF/OND AOR.

CORNELIUSSEON
12-07-2014, 06:31 PM
It seems that lots of people still have wrong ideas about the three Military Academies in the US. These CSMs, who are probably good at USAREC work, One of them will probably RUN the USAREC Station at West Point. Everyone of those Cadets has to go through USAREC to make their choice of career assignments, both when they first step on the post, and again when they are ready for Graduation. In any event, the USAREC CSM is more valued for his working competence, not how many wars he-or she- has participated.