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BRUWIN
09-24-2009, 06:46 PM
This really grates me. WTF? Officers flying around are getting more CAMs from a standoff distance then our enlisted guys getting shot at on the ground. Unbelievable. You know what...I hope someday we do end up as part of the Army...this BS would stop real quick.



http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/09/airforce_CAM_092409w/

smarg
09-24-2009, 07:13 PM
This really grates me. WTF? Officers flying around are getting more CAMs from a standoff distance then our enlisted guys getting shot at on the ground. Unbelievable. You know what...I hope someday we do end up as part of the Army...this BS would stop real quick.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/09/airforce_CAM_092409w/

Indeed. As an officer, I can tell you that my slimy brethren and sistren do everything and anything to get one-up on their peers. How about the BSM, too? Support weenies out of theater writing themselves and getting them. It's crazy.

However, don't forget the enlisted careerists gunning for E-9, either. They will stab you in the back just as soon as look at you.:rolleyes:

NFCstang
09-24-2009, 07:18 PM
This really grates me. WTF? Officers flying around are getting more CAMs from a standoff distance then our enlisted guys getting shot at on the ground. Unbelievable. You know what...I hope someday we do end up as part of the Army...this BS would stop real quick.



http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/09/airforce_CAM_092409w/

While I agree with your arguement about the CAMS, the Army is just as bad.....look at all the BSMs they give out to support personnel.

BTW, without diving back into the reg, I could have sworn being a part of a covoy that comes under attack/IED was pretty much an automatic CAM for people that are driving/gunning on the convoy, passengers notwithstanding.

I mean if you can get a CAM for flying an A-10 under 10K ft with the possibility that someone may take a potshot at you, I fail to see how getting hit by an IED and having to wait 5hrs in a combat zone doesnt

chucksnee
09-24-2009, 07:20 PM
...I hope someday we do end up as part of the Army...this BS would stop real quick.





Holy crap I needed a good laugh today.....thank you...

But if you think it does not happen over here you are sadley mistaken.....

BRUWIN
09-24-2009, 07:36 PM
Holy crap I needed a good laugh today.....thank you...

But if you think it does not happen over here you are sadley mistaken.....

I was only deployed twice with Joint Special Ops Forces that were basically run by the Army. Maybe conventional Army pulls the same stuff but the Army folks deployed with Joint Special Ops Forces that I've dealt with seem to keep a pretty good lid on things.

Comm Chief
09-24-2009, 09:19 PM
This really grates me. WTF? Officers flying around are getting more CAMs from a standoff distance then our enlisted guys getting shot at on the ground. Unbelievable. You know what...I hope someday we do end up as part of the Army...this BS would stop real quick.



http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/09/airforce_CAM_092409w/

Based on the statistics, something isn’t right. The ground pounding, convoy driving enlisted force is more at risk in this engagement than flyers. Appears officers are cooking the books.

Its really a shame. When I look at an enlisted person with a CAM or Bronze Star, I know they most likely earned it. For officers, with all due respect, I don't feel the same. Never have since we handed out Bronze Stars to officers who never left conus (Whiteman AFB) years ago. Seems some things never change. Too bad for the officer who really earned it, your brethren cheapened the award.

imported_BRAVO10000
09-24-2009, 09:23 PM
Indeed. As an officer, I can tell you that my slimy brethren and sistren do everything and anything to get one-up on their peers. How about the BSM, too? Support weenies out of theater writing themselves and getting them. It's crazy.

However, don't forget the enlisted careerists gunning for E-9, either. They will stab you in the back just as soon as look at you.:rolleyes:

Agreed. In fact...I am pretty sure that Lt Skippy got the idea from MSgt Delta Bravo.

MACHINE666
09-24-2009, 09:25 PM
Chief Bruwin, you asking this question is no different than asking why does a dog lick its ass and then want to lick you in the face? Because it wants to.

I've learned that anyone above the rank of E-7 is pretty much out to screw the junior enlisted, and anyone above the rank of O-4 is willing to act on that E-7 and above's advice.

You should be ashamed to be asking such a question at your level, Bru.

Nickymaz
09-24-2009, 09:27 PM
The article makes the point that a lot of the officers are flying combat missions. I doubt the majority of AF enlisted are leaving the wire. While the cases of airmen on convoys not getting them I have to conclude someone screwed up. If they go out there they should get it, they are risking their necks and whether they got shot at or not they should be recognized.

Comm Chief
09-24-2009, 09:34 PM
Chief Bruwin, you asking this question is no different than asking why does a dog lick its ass and then want to lick you in the face? Because it wants to.

I've learned that anyone above the rank of E-7 is pretty much out to screw the junior enlisted, and anyone above the rank of O-4 is willing to act on that E-7 and above's advice.

You should be ashamed to be asking such a question at your level, Bru.

You serious?

Variable Wind
09-24-2009, 09:35 PM
While I agree with your arguement about the CAMS, the Army is just as bad.....look at all the BSMs they give out to support personnel.

BTW, without diving back into the reg, I could have sworn being a part of a covoy that comes under attack/IED was pretty much an automatic CAM for people that are driving/gunning on the convoy, passengers notwithstanding.

I mean if you can get a CAM for flying an A-10 under 10K ft with the possibility that someone may take a potshot at you, I fail to see how getting hit by an IED and having to wait 5hrs in a combat zone doesnt

Absolutely...the BSM might as well be a good conduct medal for all the reverence that the Army has been putting in it. I witnessed this myself in my own unit.

SailorDave
09-24-2009, 10:22 PM
Getting back to the topic at hand, the Navy has a somewhat similar policy. Because we don't deploy people on the ground in combat roles (other than those specifically trained for it like SEALs, Seabees, EOD), those who are deployed must actually engage in combat. Bang, bang, you shoot at me, I shoot at you. If you don't pull the trigger, you weren't in combat. With the enemy's frequent use of the IED, that policy has been amended to include an IED strike, but only if it was against your vehicle. I don't necessarily disagree with this. If you're doing convoy ops, and an IED exploded on the lead vehicle and you're ten vehicles back, how where you actually exposed ?? Yes, you're under the threat, no matter what vehicle you're in. But that goes the same for any support personnel on the FOB when it gets mortared or has a rocket attack. Just being in the general area isn't the same as actual combat. Doesn't mean you have to be injured, just exposed to direct, hostile enemy fire.

Now, in speaking to the officer vs enlisted aspect, how many enlisted personnel deployed to the theater are actually involved in day-to-day combat activity in relation to officer personnel ?? Every fighter that drops a bomb or fires a missle or shoots his guns in support of combat operations qualifies, I'm assuming. Every aircrewman onboard a A-10 that shoots it's guns qualifies. Every PJ/CCT/JTAC probably qualifies. But I'll bet if you exclude all of the FOBBITS from these numbers, you'll have a truer example of the real picture. Air Force Crimes is just going by the raw numbers and published a sensational story about how one group is getting over on another. I'll bet their research methods wouldn't stand up to any real scrutiny.

DAG48
09-24-2009, 11:32 PM
I just wanted to ask a math question; If Enlisted Airmen deploy for say, six months on average, and Rated Flying Commissioned Officers rotate in and out of the Theater on a 30-60-or-90 day deployment schedule, could it be reasonable to assume the Officers are getting more CAM(s) due to shear volume?

The AF Times says 20% of the deployment slots are Officer, the other 80% Enlisted, but if Officer rotations are shorter than the Enlisted rotations, this could that be one reason why more Officers get the CAM, compared to Enlisted Folks?

It's not a catch all equation, but it should explain part of what's going on.

P.S.
I suppose the next thread will be about how Officer Tours are shorter than Enlisted Deployments!:eek:

CommunityEditor
09-25-2009, 12:11 AM
Enlisted airmen spent a year pushing the Air Force for a medal that recognized their work with soldiers fighting on the ground. In 2007, the service instituted the Air Force Combat Action Medal. Today, numbers show the award is going to officers in numbers far greater than they deploy.

Officers earned 1,947, or 40 percent, of the 4,833 Combat Action Medals awarded but make up less than 20 percent of deployed airmen, according to an analysis by Air Force Times. Enlisted airmen received 60 percent of the medals — 2,886 — but pull a little more than 80 percent of deployments. A total of 4,875 medals have been awarded, including 35 to special agents in the Office of Special Investigations, whose ranks are not specified, as well as four soldiers, one Marine and two Navy officers.

The numbers perpetuate a long-standing belief that the Air Force honors officers more than enlisted airmen, though officials insist the Combat Action Medal recognizes airmen of all ranks and specialties who have engaged in direct combat and doesn’t favor either enlisted airmen or officers.

“The Air Force is an air-specific force, and those who fly are typically officers,” said Col. Ken Sersun, director of the manpower, personnel and services directorate for Air Forces Central Command, whose commander gives final approval for awards in Iraq and Afghanistan. “Certainly there are a lot of enlisted who are in harm’s way, but it would bear out, I think, and make sense that [there’s] a large portion of the force that flies. That’s what we do.”

An Air Force Times analysis of medals and deployments published in February found officers earn more than double the awards for an average deployment in Iraq or Afghanistan than enlisted airmen. Airmen in flying roles, both officer and enlisted, are more likely to receive a medal than those in support roles.

The study showed the notable exception is that enlisted members receive more valor and heroism awards than their superiors.

The Combat Action Medal was born after a year of debate about whether the Air Force should have another combat medal and who would qualify for it.

Retired Gen. T. Michael Moseley, then the Air Force’s chief of staff, supported the idea of recognizing combat experience but also said he didn’t want to exclude any airman based on rank or specialty.

“The intent was to recognize Air Force officers and enlisted folks who have participated in combat operations,” Moseley said. “Officer, enlisted, straight across the board, not just pilots, not just [explosive ordnance disposal] or security forces, but anyone who was in actual combat, assigned to a combat zone.”

When asked the fairness question, Moseley said the numbers don’t tell the full story.

“Not all of the enlisted guys are in combat roles,” he said. “EOD, security forces, combat controllers, those guys don’t make up 100 percent of the enlisted deployed force.”

The Air Force carefully drafted the qualifications and award process to eliminate favoritism, Moseley said.

“Up until recently, 99.9 percent of the combat conducted by the United States Air Force was conducted by pilots and aircrew,” he said. “But over the past few years, you see a higher percentage of folks wearing the United States Air Force uniform engaged in combat on the ground. How do we recognize them at the same level as we do with the pilots and aircrew?”

A technical sergeant who recently returned from a six-month deployment in Iraq, his third overseas tour, told Air Force Times he had been denied the Combat Action Medal. The airman asked not to be identified for fear of retribution.

Assigned to an Army unit, the technical sergeant was traveling in a convoy when an improvised explosive device struck and disabled the vehicle in front of his.

“As soon as we got hit, the truck commander starts yelling that we got hit and we just donned our night-vision goggles and made sure we wouldn’t get hit again,” he said.

It would be more than five hours, deep into the night, before the convoy and the quick-reaction force could move the disabled vehicle and return to the safety of a forward operating base, the airman said.

The technical sergeant’s commanding officers nominated him for a Combat Action Medal, but his packet never made it past the group level. The nomination for a fellow airman in the same vehicle also was denied, he said.

“The Air Force, it seems … they’re turning down a lot of people because they weren’t close enough to being killed, I don’t know,” he said. “I don’t really care if I get it, but I know of other guys who deserve it who didn’t get it.”

A panel of three officers and two senior enlisted airmen, all of whom must have served in a combat zone, studies the Combat Action Medal nominations. The board, led by a sixth person, a brigadier general, is given specific instructions on the criteria and panel members undergo mock boards beforehand to ensure they are consistent when they grade nomination packets, Sersun said.

The final approval authority for each award is the commander of Air Forces Central, who currently is Lt. Gen. Gilmary Hostage.

“Any award is rather subjective in nature when it comes down to it,” Sersun said. “The board process itself helps [maintain] a consistent integrity to the process.”

So far, according to Sersun, 75 percent to 80 percent of Combat Action Medal nominations have been approved. By comparison, the approval rate is about 82 percent for the Bronze Star, a non-flight medal and the highest decoration awarded in large numbers, according to the earlier analysis; however, the Bronze Star with valor, which has more stringent criteria, has an approval rate of 41 percent, according to Air Forces Central Command.

In 2007, the first year the Combat Action medal was awarded, 2,285, or 75 percent, of the 3,053 submissions were approved. The rate rose to 82 percent in 2008, when the panel approved 1,928 of 2,352 nominations; of the 842 nominations received so far this year, 662 medals have been awarded — a 79 percent approval rate.

The Air Force could not provide breakdowns of the nomination numbers for enlisted airmen and officers or Combat Action Medal recipients by Air Force Specialty Code.

In almost every case, awards are denied because the actions didn’t meet the criteria or the nomination packet wasn’t written well enough to properly describe the events that took place, Moseley said.

“This is not evil CentAF picking and choosing,” he said. “This goes back to the age-old issue of awards and decorations.”


Article: http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/09/airforce_CAM_092409w/

TheShaggy
09-25-2009, 01:04 AM
I don't understand how officers are getting so many. There are more enlisted airman such as SPs driving convoys, EOD, TACP and CCT enlisted out there engaged in combat. This whole "we are an air-specific force" is a load bull. Yeah, C-130, C-17 and H-60 aircrews fly into combat enviornments and many recieve the CAM from surface to air fire, but on each of those there are enlisted aircrew members who are equally eligible to recieve it. So what gives? So how are you are gonna take enlisted airmen and force them for JET deployments with other services who are actually ground combat oriented, but won't award them the CAM once they come under fire?


I do have a theory though, Jill Metzger

BigT2002
09-25-2009, 01:28 AM
I don't understand how officers are getting so many. There are more enlisted airman such as SPs driving convoys, EOD, TACP and CCT enlisted out there engaged in combat. This whole "we are an air-specific force" is a load bull. Yeah, C-130, C-17 and H-60 aircrews fly into combat enviornments and many recieve the CAM from surface to air fire, but on each of those there are enlisted aircrew members who are equally eligible to recieve it. So what gives? So how are you are gonna take enlisted airmen and force them for JET deployments with other services who are actually ground combat oriented, but won't award them the CAM once they come under fire?


I do have a theory though, Jill Metzger

You hit the nail on the head. I don't really care for the medal anyways considering that the whole purpose of a CAM was that we could wear it proudly on our ABU's just like the Army (since the Air Force doesn't like their people wearing another branches CAB). Instead we get a nice ribbon that we can wear once a week at most. They screwed the pooch and now its just a way for flyers to make it look like they did something more because they flew and encountered a SAFIRE.

Thought you had to shoot back to get it???

BRUWIN
09-25-2009, 02:12 AM
I just wanted to ask a math question; If Enlisted Airmen deploy for say, six months on average, and Rated Flying Commissioned Officers rotate in and out of the Theater on a 30-60-or-90 day deployment schedule, could it be reasonable to assume the Officers are getting more CAM(s) due to shear volume?

The AF Times says 20% of the deployment slots are Officer, the other 80% Enlisted, but if Officer rotations are shorter than the Enlisted rotations, this could that be one reason why more Officers get the CAM, compared to Enlisted Folks?

It's not a catch all equation, but it should explain part of what's going on.

P.S.
I suppose the next thread will be about how Officer Tours are shorter than Enlisted Deployments!:eek:

It don't explain things tto me. Officers are steeling the show. I have a troop in for a CAM currently...we'll see how that goes.

Michaep
09-25-2009, 02:43 AM
75 percent approval rating for AFCAM versus 80+ percent approval for BRONZE STAR???

Plus having a board convene of officers and senior enlisted to determine everything

Plus having a 3 Star General be the final approval???

All this for an award that doesnt even merit ANY promotion points???

And yet.....The Generals and the public wonder why no living person has been issued the Medal Of Honor for the current wars

STOP treating every award like you need to have all your arms and legs blown off and single handedly capture Osama Bin Laden with your bare hands

STOP having quotas on what awards should be given to what ranks

STOP handing out Bronze Stars to leadership who are "brave" in their OFFICE

Michaep
09-25-2009, 03:24 AM
With as much of a hassle it is to go through, having a board get together to decide, then having a LtGen be a final approval, then having a LOWER approval rating versus Bronze Star.....thats just wrong

And all this for a medal that gives you zero promotion points

And they wonder why no living individual in the current wars have been given a MOH

An INVESTIGATION? witnesses? Statements?

for an AFCAM?

Its not the AF Cross.....its the AFCAM

If you meet the requirements....then you meet the requirements

If you had Troops In Contact...you need to get the medal, hands down

A bullet is a bullet is a bullet

"Well this bullet came within 10 feet from you, but this bullet came within 3 feet of you. The 10 foot bullet range was too far away to threaten you, therefore the AFCAM has been declined"

hahaha give me a break

DAG48
09-25-2009, 04:24 AM
It don't explain things tto me. Officers are steeling the show. I have a troop in for a CAM currently...we'll see how that goes.

You're just jealous, because Officers can type, spell, and edit better! LOL!

Seriously, you cannot see that when 20% of the Folks deployed have turnover rates up to twice as fast as their Counterparts in the remaining 80%, it could impact the CAM awards distribution? Not to mention that many of those Folks in the 80% bracket are not in a position to earn a CAM in the first place.

Keep in mind I said this is just ONE variable, and does not explain all the differences in the awarding of the CAM.

I know there will always be People who take advantage of a situation for their own benefit. However, I also know it is not always the case that one side or the other is totally evil and stealing the show.

Good luck with your troop's CAM. I really do wish you well.

DAG48
09-25-2009, 04:38 AM
A big reason for the all the crap you have to go through to get a Combat Action Medal is because of it's significance in VA Benefits once you get out.

If you are unlucky enough to have PTSD, and you have a CAM, a Bronze Star with a V device for valor, or a Purple Heart, you have a significantly better chance of getting your VA claim approved vs. someone who was not awarded any of these medals.

The CAM is important. So if you or someone under your command has met the criteria, put them in for it. If they are a superior Officer/NCO, or out of your chain of command, do everything in your power to make sure they are recognized for their service.

These medals are important for you, and your family, as well as all those you serve with and their families. Try to look out for one another, and follow up on your recommendations when you get the chance.

Good Luck and God Bless

Michaep
09-25-2009, 04:48 AM
A big reason for the all the crap you have to go through to get a Combat Action Medal is because of it's significance in VA Benefits once you get out.

If you are unlucky enough to have PTSD, and you have a CAM, a Bronze Star with a V device for valor, or a Purple Heart, you have a significantly better chance of getting your VA claim approved vs. someone who was not awarded any of these medals.

The CAM is important. So if you or someone under your command has met the criteria, put them in for it. If they are a superior Officer/NCO, or out of your chain of command, do everything in your power to make sure they are recognized for their service.

These medals are important for you, and your family, as well as all those you serve with and their families. Try to look out for one another, and follow up on your recommendations when you get the chance.

Good Luck and God Bless

Problem exists when youre going up against higher ups who have "personal preferences" on which Golden Child should get picked...etc....

There has been "unverified" quotas that Team Leaders get _____ award, X number of Airmen get ____ award, and so on....

Politics should never play a role in award issuing, sadly it does

SailorDave
09-25-2009, 04:55 AM
But that addresses levels of personal awards. The CAM/CAR has only one level. Involved in a combat action or not. If the paperwork is done well, it shouldn't be a problem getting the award.

Michaep
09-25-2009, 05:07 AM
But that addresses levels of personal awards. The CAM/CAR has only one level. Involved in a combat action or not. If the paperwork is done well, it shouldn't be a problem getting the award.

Right....but its leadership who were the witnesses, as in squad leaders, captains...etc...

leadership who writes the award packages

leadership who gives their opinions to the Full Bird who submits it to higher HQ

If leadership doesnt like a troop, theyre not going to bother, regardless if he or she should rightfully get the medal

Goodluck getting an E-4 or E-5 to go up against a lot more stripes and bars in regards to awards that are handled above his paygrade

SailorDave
09-25-2009, 05:16 AM
The only avenue at that point is if there were others who did receive it in the same area he was in (like the same truck), then anything they get has to be justified as to why he didn't.

VOLZZZMAN
09-25-2009, 06:03 AM
Most convoy operators won't get a CAM unless they receive a direct attack on their vehicle. It is rare to get one when the vehicle ahead of you got hit unless further attacks were present i.e. SAF. Of course, there are exceptions.

imported_LOAL-D
09-25-2009, 06:07 AM
Oh now, give them O's their medals....after all they are of "noble blood"...:rolleyes: :D

Michaep
09-25-2009, 06:15 AM
Oh now, give them O's their medals....after all they are of "noble blood"...:rolleyes: :D

I once asked why Officers were held so much higher than enlisted folks

The answer I got was that they made life or death decisions in battle

And that under the UCMJ, for certain offenses, Officers can be put to death while Enlisted could just get a jail sentence

None of that stuff applies anymore though, we dont have Civil War Generals out on the battlefield with E-3's getting shot at making calls for Alpha Company to bound forward 200 meters

But they sure do get those "supertroop" Medals though dont they

Could it be that they themselves....or their Officer coworkers write eachothers packages?

Or that the Full Bird wants to see "His Captain" do well in his career?

"You did a good job cleaning this place up there Captain, you've been nominated for 7 different awards/medals"

imported_Modus
09-25-2009, 06:46 AM
Is it that serious? I mean you get no points for promotion for the AFCAM.

STODR
09-25-2009, 03:35 PM
I don't understand how officers are getting so many. There are more enlisted airman such as SPs driving convoys, EOD, TACP and CCT enlisted out there engaged in combat. This whole "we are an air-specific force" is a load bull. Yeah, C-130, C-17 and H-60 aircrews fly into combat enviornments and many recieve the CAM from surface to air fire, but on each of those there are enlisted aircrew members who are equally eligible to recieve it. So what gives?
I do have a theory though, Jill Metzger

There are a couple of reasons for this. One you actually have to be involved in combat as in shooting at or being shot at directly (you can't get one because you were at Balad when it was mortered). The SP's, EOD, TACP, CCT and PJ's are deployed constinatly and are in low numbers. Since they can only get the award once and since they are the bulk of the enlisted that are envolved in combat that brings the number down. As for pilots mainly the fighter guys, their are far more of them then the whole group mentioned above. Whether or not they should get it is for anouther debate.



So how are you are gonna take enlisted airmen and force them for JET deployments with other services who are actually ground combat oriented, but won't award them the CAM once they come under fire?

I have no idea what you said there

TheShaggy
09-25-2009, 06:06 PM
There are a couple of reasons for this. One you actually have to be involved in combat as in shooting at or being shot at directly (you can't get one because you were at Balad when it was mortered). The SP's, EOD, TACP, CCT and PJ's are deployed constinatly and are in low numbers. Since they can only get the award once and since they are the bulk of the enlisted that are envolved in combat that brings the number down. As for pilots mainly the fighter guys, their are far more of them then the whole group mentioned above. Whether or not they should get it is for anouther debate.






If a fighter pilot has a CAM, he is a damn liar. The only fighter pilot that should have one is an A-10 pilot

akruse
09-25-2009, 07:07 PM
If a fighter pilot has a CAM, he is a damn liar. The only fighter pilot that should have one is an A-10 pilot

I'm wondering what the difference is between a 16, 15E, A10, or Hornet is in Afghan/Iraq environments?

TheShaggy
09-25-2009, 07:11 PM
I'm wondering what the difference is between a 16, 15E, A10, or Hornet is in Afghan/Iraq environments?

The diference is that the A10 is the only one flying low and slow and actually getting shot at.

akruse
09-25-2009, 07:20 PM
The diference is that the A10 is the only one flying low and slow and actually getting shot at.

You got to be kidding me :)

STODR
09-25-2009, 07:31 PM
If a fighter pilot has a CAM, he is a damn liar. The only fighter pilot that should have one is an A-10 pilot

You should read what the criteria is for the Medal before you start calling officers liars.



Airmen are eligible for the combat action medal "if their primary role includes performing duties in a combat zone, either on the ground or from the air, by entering into an unsecured area away from an established installation," Mr. Balducci said. "While performing their duties, they must have come under fire or fire upon an enemy to qualify."

it is a whole other debate, that was hot an heavy on here when the criteria first come out whether or not that last part should include aircraft. But by the criteria any pilot or crew who dropped Ordnance or had been shot at qualifies.

warr1or
09-25-2009, 08:34 PM
We recently had two F-16 pilots from our base get the CAM for stuff in Iraq. To the best of my knowledge, they didn't even drop ordinance, they flew in circles supporting the army in a firefight and used show of force.

In 2003 I had a SAM shot at the aircraft I was part of the crew of, I would love to figure out how to retroactively get that approved.

STODR
09-25-2009, 09:35 PM
We recently had two F-16 pilots from our base get the CAM for stuff in Iraq. To the best of my knowledge, they didn't even drop ordinance, they flew in circles supporting the army in a firefight and used show of force.

Since you do not know, why bitch about it? Since a 3 star has final approval I am guessing they had to do more then just a flyby.


In 2003 I had a SAM shot at the aircraft I was part of the crew of, I would love to figure out how to retroactively get that approved.

If you were part of the crew but manifested as passenger you can not get it. However if you manifested as crew then all you have to do is fill out the paper work and have the commander sign it. If he does not have first hand knowledge you would have to get a witness.

MACHINE666
09-25-2009, 10:44 PM
Oh you can assess a Chief if you've known good Chiefs and bad Chiefs...if you're not a Chief, doesn't mean you are a retard....

Agreed. Just as I can assess whether or not the Commander in Chief is doing a good job or not, despite the fact I will never be one.

imported_bluejacket
09-25-2009, 11:13 PM
Since you do not know, why bitch about it? Since a 3 star has final approval I am guessing they had to do more then just a flyby.



If you were part of the crew but manifested as passenger you can not get it. However if you manifested as crew then all you have to do is fill out the paper work and have the commander sign it. If he does not have first hand knowledge you would have to get a witness.

Who cares? This is such an unimportant issue.

FLAPS
09-25-2009, 11:39 PM
Based on the statistics, something isn’t right. The ground pounding, convoy driving enlisted force is more at risk in this engagement than flyers. Appears officers are cooking the books.

Its really a shame. When I look at an enlisted person with a CAM or Bronze Star, I know they most likely earned it. For officers, with all due respect, I don't feel the same. Never have since we handed out Bronze Stars to officers who never left conus (Whiteman AFB) years ago. Seems some things never change. Too bad for the officer who really earned it, your brethren cheapened the award.

I worked with a Chief who was awarded a Bronze Star for his one-year hardship tour to Al Udeid...so it's not just the officers. Anyone who isn't shot at or at risk of being blown up shouldn't get one of these medals in my opinion.

imported_chipotleboy
09-26-2009, 12:13 AM
Or that the Full Bird wants to see "His Captain" do well in his career?

"You did a good job cleaning this place up there Captain, you've been nominated for 7 different awards/medals"

That's a shack.

During my exec tour, my O-6 boss hired his O-8 "Godfather's" daughter to be the new section commander right before a UCI. And before she even got done unpacking, the boss nominated her for a "superior performer" award for the UCI.

One hand washes the other.

Scruples
09-26-2009, 05:21 PM
There are officers and enlisteds who are always looking out for Number One.

From what I have seen in one deployment under the same command:

A Major in charge of a two-man shop received a Meritorious Service Medal (MSM) compared to another Major in charge of a team of 50+ people who performed a complex and important mission that was just as successful as the other Major who received the MSM.

The latter Major was awarded an Air Force Commendation Medal (AFCM) that read like an MSM. A Master Seargeant who served under the latter Major was also awarded the AFCM even though he only did a smaller scope of the mission and responsibilities of the Major.

Politics is played on both sides (officer/enlisted) of the fence.

TheShaggy
09-27-2009, 12:18 AM
Since you do not know, why bitch about it? Since a 3 star has final approval I am guessing they had to do more then just a flyby.





If they didn't drop ordinance, what else would they do? Point their finger and say "Bang Bang" give me a CAM?

imported_blacksheep1208
09-27-2009, 01:20 PM
The diference is that the A10 is the only one flying low and slow and actually getting shot at.

F-16s don't fly low enough? What about the one that Maj. Gilbert was flying in 2006 that crashed while he was on strafing runs? While I'm not going to defend the logic of using an F-16 to strafe the ground, you can't argue with the fact that pilots of those jets have been down low as well.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/12/03/airman.kia/

TheShaggy
09-27-2009, 05:32 PM
F-16s don't fly low enough? What about the one that Maj. Gilbert was flying in 2006 that crashed while he was on strafing runs? While I'm not going to defend the logic of using an F-16 to strafe the ground, you can't argue with the fact that pilots of those jets have been down low as well.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/12/03/airman.kia/

Look at the SAFIRE reports for the past 8 years and tell me how many times a jet fighter was shot at compared to cargo and rotary aircraft. I'll tell you one thing, shit sky rocketed when the CAM came out. I'm eligible from a manpad rocketing past my paratroop door, but I don't feel it's worthy of it. Folks see a light streak across the sky and oh they think they were shot at and go clamoring for a CAM. It's BS. The medal is so watered down with lies and BS. This medal should be for the warfighters on the ground. The Airmen actually engaged in actual combat. Aircrew, we get enough recognition, we don't need another ribbon to go with the others only we can get. I hate to say it, but aircrew has screwed the integrity of the CAM

akruse
09-27-2009, 05:33 PM
F-16s don't fly low enough? What about the one that Maj. Gilbert was flying in 2006 that crashed while he was on strafing runs? While I'm not going to defend the logic of using an F-16 to strafe the ground, you can't argue with the fact that pilots of those jets have been down low as well.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/12/03/airman.kia/

Most people don't realize how many strafing runs ALL aircraft make now days and that you need to be down in the weeds in order to make an effective run. The A-10 isn't the only aircraft with a gun.

akruse
09-27-2009, 05:36 PM
Look at the SAFIRE reports for the past 8 years and tell me how many times a jet fighter was shot at compared to cargo and rotary aircraft. I'll tell you one thing, shit sky rocketed when the CAM came out. I'm eligible from a manpad rocketing past my paratroop door, but I don't feel it's worthy of it. Folks see a light streak across the sky and oh they think they were shot at and go clamoring for a CAM. It's BS. The medal is so watered down with lies and BS. This medal should be for the warfighters on the ground. The Airmen actually engaged in actual combat. Aircrew, we get enough recognition, we don't need another ribbon to go with the others only we can get. I hate to say it, but aircrew has screwed the integrity of the CAM

So what is the difference between an A-10 pilot getting one over an 15 pilot?

TheShaggy
09-27-2009, 05:44 PM
So what is the difference between an A-10 pilot getting one over an 15 pilot?

Really? Seriously? A-10s' main mission is for direct ground support. Fly low and slow engaging ground forces. 15 pilots are many thousands of feet up dropping a bomb where as a 10 pilot is a few hundred feet off the deck firing it's gatling gun on the enemy. They actually return to base with bullet holes from the enemy returning fire and finding their target. It's a joke for the pointy nose jockeys to claim the same

akruse
09-27-2009, 07:29 PM
Really? Seriously? A-10s' main mission is for direct ground support. Fly low and slow engaging ground forces. 15 pilots are many thousands of feet up dropping a bomb where as a 10 pilot is a few hundred feet off the deck firing it's gatling gun on the enemy. They actually return to base with bullet holes from the enemy returning fire and finding their target. It's a joke for the pointy nose jockeys to claim the same

Really? Seriously you have no clue as to how either aircraft operate. Do you think the 15, 18, 16, and others strafe from "many thousands of feet"? Do you think the A-10 just cruises around at a hundred feet getting rocks thrown at it? I'm talking current mission stuff. You are talking flying into a high threat (SAM and AAA integrated) area which the A-10 wouldn't survive in just the same as any of the other fighters wouldn't survive in.

Put away the A-10 comic books and do some research fly boy :)

Michaep
09-27-2009, 08:52 PM
Really? Seriously you have no clue as to how either aircraft operate. Do you think the 15, 18, 16, and others strafe from "many thousands of feet"? Do you think the A-10 just cruises around at a hundred feet getting rocks thrown at it? I'm talking current mission stuff. You are talking flying into a high threat (SAM and AAA integrated) area which the A-10 wouldn't survive in just the same as any of the other fighters wouldn't survive in.

Put away the A-10 comic books and do some research fly boy :)

haha none of this matters.....The "Good ol boy" system will give them their Pass Go, Collect $200, Collect 1 Bronze Star, Proceed to Boardwalk Ave

Michaep
09-27-2009, 09:33 PM
haha I've got it!!!

Hire CIVILIANS to start performing the process

Civilians seem to be the answer to all of our problems in the AF

"civilians are not biased in their decision making"

imported_blacksheep1208
09-27-2009, 10:42 PM
Really? Seriously? A-10s' main mission is for direct ground support. Fly low and slow engaging ground forces. 15 pilots are many thousands of feet up dropping a bomb where as a 10 pilot is a few hundred feet off the deck firing it's gatling gun on the enemy. They actually return to base with bullet holes from the enemy returning fire and finding their target. It's a joke for the pointy nose jockeys to claim the same

Then get the criteria for the medal rewritten.

imported_oih82w8
09-27-2009, 11:47 PM
haha I've got it!!!

Hire CIVILIANS to start performing the process

Civilians seem to be the answer to all of our problems in the AF

"civilians are not biased in their decision making"

Are you saying that the civilians that were selected for the AF PT Program can do the Decoration Process in between waist measurements? Since we have them there, let's utilize their time to the fullest!

Michaep
09-28-2009, 02:35 AM
Then get the criteria for the medal rewritten.

Or the Government in general could stop treating medals like you need to be able to catch bullets with your teeth.

I admit its a difficult situation....while medals do need to be reserved for doing something thats not ordinary....they also cant be held back as strongly as they are currently being withheld.

If theyre making it this hard to qualify for an AFCAM and making it all political....then no wonder why theres been nohing even close to a living MOH for these wars

At this point, even if you as a soldier were to save The Presidents life while he was visiting a combat zone.....you'd still probably only qualify for a Silver Star....thats a really sad situation

Michaep
09-28-2009, 02:44 AM
Are you saying that the civilians that were selected for the AF PT Program can do the Decoration Process in between waist measurements? Since we have them there, let's utilize their time to the fullest!

haha yep.....waist measurements.....awards process....EPR rating....deployment tempo

Let non-military people run the military.....seems to be the new "in-thing"

BigT2002
09-28-2009, 04:31 AM
Or the Government in general could stop treating medals like you need to be able to catch bullets with your teeth.

I admit its a difficult situation....while medals do need to be reserved for doing something thats not ordinary....they also cant be held back as strongly as they are currently being withheld.

If theyre making it this hard to qualify for an AFCAM and making it all political....then no wonder why theres been nohing even close to a living MOH for these wars

At this point, even if you as a soldier were to save The Presidents life while he was visiting a combat zone.....you'd still probably only qualify for a Silver Star....thats a really sad situation

Depends on the situation where you save the prez's life though. I wouldn't put it past they just gave you an Airmans Medal and patted you on the back.

The thing with the last MOH person who would of been awarded while still alive is they couldn't find any forensic evidence to validate that the guy could have survived the head wound he received before his act of heroism took place. Personally (and what many others have said) it was because he wasn't a citizen by birth and naturalized here from Mexico. The board is made up of at least one living MOH person....depending on when they were awarded theirs I'm sure there wasn't any bad blood about that.....

imported_blacksheep1208
09-28-2009, 08:54 AM
I know people that have taken direct fire and gotten the medal. And these are intel people, so it's not exaclty like they are ground pounders. Where are these masses of people that are getting turned down? Or is it a mountain being made out of a mole hill?

Gunner007
09-28-2009, 06:44 PM
While I agree with your arguement about the CAMS, the Army is just as bad.....look at all the BSMs they give out to support personnel.

BTW, without diving back into the reg, I could have sworn being a part of a covoy that comes under attack/IED was pretty much an automatic CAM for people that are driving/gunning on the convoy, passengers notwithstanding.

I mean if you can get a CAM for flying an A-10 under 10K ft with the possibility that someone may take a potshot at you, I fail to see how getting hit by an IED and having to wait 5hrs in a combat zone doesnt

You dont get a CAM for only possibly being shot at, you have to actually be shot at.

Stang5150
09-28-2009, 07:10 PM
You dont get a CAM for only possibly being shot at, you have to actually be shot at.


If that were the case then I and everyone else should have gotten a CAM for being in the DC/Maryland area when the DC sniper was on the loose. Heck, I too was hiding behind my car at the gas pumps while looking off into the woods just waiting to get popped.

KT3
09-28-2009, 08:45 PM
You dont get a CAM for only possibly being shot at, you have to actually be shot at. When I was there, you had to be shot or had someone about 5ft away from you being shot to get it. Or the IED hitting your vehicle. My unit was shot at with SAF, but our nominations was declined before we wrote it because the 'offical' report about it only said that the IA (which we were imbed in) was shot at, but didn't make an mention to us. So according to the Air Force, it never happen. And what my Chief said when we were fighting it said that the bullets didn't land near us. Which was correct. Only about 10 feet behind us A bullet went above my buddies' head and landed. How am I going to fight trajectoy?

Michaep
09-28-2009, 10:23 PM
I know people that have taken direct fire and gotten the medal. And these are intel people, so it's not exaclty like they are ground pounders. Where are these masses of people that are getting turned down? Or is it a mountain being made out of a mole hill?

Ive just been hearing A LOT of instances where it basically "wasnt heroic enough" or "not in enough grave danger"

To me....getting shot at outside the wire....preeeeety much equals grave danger

I dunno about you....but last I heard.....bullets can hurt you a little bit....only a little though

bullets usually tickle you I guess

Talking with a SNCO....the Army apparently gives entire squads the Combat Medal as long as they get shot at on at least one occasion.....apparently with the Army its a simple pass/fail type of award

Why on Earth....does the AF.....have HARDER criteria for a COMBAT MEDAL.....versus SOLDIERS???

Michaep
09-28-2009, 10:42 PM
When I was there, you had to be shot or had someone about 5ft away from you being shot to get it. Or the IED hitting your vehicle. My unit was shot at with SAF, but our nominations was declined before we wrote it because the 'offical' report about it only said that the IA (which we were imbed in) was shot at, but didn't make an mention to us. So according to the Air Force, it never happen. And what my Chief said when we were fighting it said that the bullets didn't land near us. Which was correct. Only about 10 feet behind us A bullet went above my buddies' head and landed. How am I going to fight trajectoy?

THIS is the type of stupidity I'm talking about.....you werent in "enough" danger

The bullets werent "close" enough

WAKE UP AIR FORCE

....you should have received a Medal.....not worry about trajectory and bullet paths

If I were you, Id fight it all the way to Adm Mike Mullen :D ...dead serious

El Jefe
09-29-2009, 06:49 AM
Ive just been hearing A LOT of instances where it basically "wasnt heroic enough" or "not in enough grave danger"

To me....getting shot at outside the wire....preeeeety much equals grave danger

I dunno about you....but last I heard.....bullets can hurt you a little bit....only a little though

bullets usually tickle you I guess

Talking with a SNCO....the Army apparently gives entire squads the Combat Medal as long as they get shot at on at least one occasion.....apparently with the Army its a simple pass/fail type of award



Oh look..It's the secret Delta ninja weighing in.

1)There is no "army combat medal". We'll have to guess you are talking about the combat action badge they now give to all the pogues so as to stop their bitching and crying like the kind going on here.

2)The CAB is awarded now because some split arse MP (no matter the branch, cops are always crying about something.) whined to Rummy that the CRR wasn't "enough" reward for eating doughnuts downrange.


http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=3308

The rest of your friend's claims are pure conjecture. I'm sure that people who don't deserve it (let's face it, if it's not a CAR, CIB, EMB you didn't deserve it.) have been awarded en mass, but who knows.





Nothing screams "wanker" than a board full of clowns pissing and moaning about not getting "combat" (and no....playing COD4 in your hanger in Balad doesn't count as combat) recognition. If you feel the need to impress the skanks back home with fancy medals, ribbons and badges, join a COMBAT MOS.



I got dis here medal fighting fer yer freedumbs=
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q141/theMSUkid/attention_whore_chick.jpg

imported_BRAVO10000
09-29-2009, 11:38 AM
If I were you, Id fight it all the way to Adm Mike Mullen :D ...dead serious

Fighting for your own CAM. Yeah, that's a great idea. No risk of looking like a self-promoting glory-seeking taint in doing that. :rolleyes:

imported_blacksheep1208
09-29-2009, 12:20 PM
Ive just been hearing A LOT of instances where it basically "wasnt heroic enough" or "not in enough grave danger"

To me....getting shot at outside the wire....preeeeety much equals grave danger

I dunno about you....but last I heard.....bullets can hurt you a little bit....only a little though

bullets usually tickle you I guess

Talking with a SNCO....the Army apparently gives entire squads the Combat Medal as long as they get shot at on at least one occasion.....apparently with the Army its a simple pass/fail type of award

Why on Earth....does the AF.....have HARDER criteria for a COMBAT MEDAL.....versus SOLDIERS???

Well then explain these instances you've been "hearing". Or is this one of those I heard from a guy who knows a guy cases? I love RUMINT.

imported_Modus
09-29-2009, 01:56 PM
I've seen a few Army CAB (Combat Action Badges) presented in the AOR, and I know the process isn't that cut and dry. I believe they required sworn statements/diagram, and other documentation for approval.

imported_blacksheep1208
09-29-2009, 02:06 PM
Based on the statistics, something isn’t right. The ground pounding, convoy driving enlisted force is more at risk in this engagement than flyers. Appears officers are cooking the books.

Its really a shame. When I look at an enlisted person with a CAM or Bronze Star, I know they most likely earned it. For officers, with all due respect, I don't feel the same. Never have since we handed out Bronze Stars to officers who never left conus (Whiteman AFB) years ago. Seems some things never change. Too bad for the officer who really earned it, your brethren cheapened the award.

If a Bronze Star has a V on it, it was really earned. If it doesn't, it's just a glorified end of tour award. I saw Bronze Stars given out to E-8's and O-5's like they were candy in Baghdad. It really adds some nice icing to the whole deployment cake to watch a medal like that become cheapened.

ason42
09-29-2009, 03:51 PM
Its funny reading the enlisted whine and moan about what officers get and they don't get. The only officers who get this are maybe some pilots. The only enlisted career fields that probably get this are due to the requirements are maybe the jtacs, cct, some sp's, some other spec ops. types and thats it. If you read the fine print it says personnel who take fire and fire upon the enemy in a combat role. Sitting in the back of a c-130 looking out of the jump door window on your way into biap may or may not count just because you saw a rocket streak into war eagle or warrior up in Kirkuk. Same goes for the viper jockey who does a show of force and saw tracer fire from one building to another, those guys know if they were shot at and sure as hell know if they got to drop or shoot their m4. Same goes for the jtac who is now (in OIF, not talking OEF here), sitting in the TOC and cleared a viper driver hot. Who is in more danger?
The point is there are so few USAF types that meet the criteria and so many loons on here crying about it, its embarassing.

ason42
09-29-2009, 04:20 PM
And yes, it sickening to see the bronze star handed out like candy now. Given to those tough hombres who were typically toughing out the oh so hard USAF 6 mos. tour or the occasional year long tour the USAF types get in Bdad or balad or for toughing out their job on the computer in some TOC. I don't care if you are an O or E. Starting to sound like the old timers stories of back in Nam days of yore.

Variable Wind
09-29-2009, 04:33 PM
Its funny reading the enlisted whine and moan about what officers get and they don't get. The only officers who get this are maybe some pilots. The only enlisted career fields that probably get this are due to the requirements are maybe the jtacs, cct, some sp's, some other spec ops. types and thats it. If you read the fine print it says personnel who take fire and fire upon the enemy in a combat role. Sitting in the back of a c-130 looking out of the jump door window on your way into biap may or may not count just because you saw a rocket streak into war eagle or warrior up in Kirkuk. Same goes for the viper jockey who does a show of force and saw tracer fire from one building to another, those guys know if they were shot at and sure as hell know if they got to drop or shoot their m4. Same goes for the jtac who is now (in OIF, not talking OEF here), sitting in the TOC and cleared a viper driver hot. Who is in more danger?
The point is there are so few USAF types that meet the criteria and so many loons on here crying about it, its embarassing.

Correct me if I am wrong, but arent there more enlisted crew members on most AF aircraft than officers? What I am getting at is that the most common aircraft I think are "shot" at are C-130s and rotary wing. Each helo has 2 crewchiefs and two Officers normally right? More aircrew on the C-130 than pilots. I think people are wondering why there are so many MORE officers than enlisted getting them.

And of course how many officer fields are there that probably see fire? Its seems like the awards should reflect the demographic, maybe not 100% but within reason.

KT3
09-29-2009, 04:35 PM
Its funny reading the enlisted whine and moan about what officers get and they don't get. The only officers who get this are maybe some pilots. The only enlisted career fields that probably get this are due to the requirements are maybe the jtacs, cct, some sp's, some other spec ops. types and thats it. If you read the fine print it says personnel who take fire and fire upon the enemy in a combat role. One more thing. People who were hit with IDF inside the compound gets it too.

ason42
09-29-2009, 04:55 PM
"One more thing. People who were hit with IDF inside the compound gets it too."

There you have it, I helped write a CAM for two JTACs who got into a firefight with their platoon on the streets of Mosul over a year ago. They had to have witnesses and so forth. They got it. If you are being shot at as a passenger or simply observed enemy fire then its iffy. Sorry, but that is what most USAF types are, observers if they are even really shot at. And most USAF enlisted aircrew are not being shot at. Its so rare its laughable now unless they are spec. ops and those guys don't talk usually, especially not here. So there you have it, why mostly fighter drivers get it and not the whiny ass USAF enlisted paper warriors on this site.

Variable Wind
09-29-2009, 05:04 PM
"One more thing. People who were hit with IDF inside the compound gets it too."

There you have it, I helped write a CAM for two JTACs who got into a firefight with their platoon on the streets of Mosul over a year ago. They had to have witnesses and so forth. They got it. If you are being shot at as a passenger or simply observed enemy fire then its iffy. Sorry, but that is what most USAF types are, observers if they are even really shot at. And most USAF enlisted aircrew are not being shot at. Its so rare its laughable now unless they are spec. ops and those guys don't talk usually, especially not here. So there you have it, why mostly fighter drivers get it and not the whiny ass USAF enlisted paper warriors on this site.

And how many fighter drivers have have been in theatre compared to the number of awards given out? Now Im Army Aviation and not AF, but I can tell you that in my experience, we helo guys get shot at quite enough. Now is that CAM worthy? I really have never decided. But if a fighter jock gets it for doing what? Strafing? Pshaw...CAP at under 10,000 feet? Im just curious how the fighter guys are getting them and what they are getting shot at with. A-10s I can definitely see, but how big is that pool?

Gunner007
09-29-2009, 10:05 PM
It don't explain things tto me. Officers are steeling the show. I have a troop in for a CAM currently...we'll see how that goes.

This may help answer the O vs E issue for you and many other people.

THey have made the guidelines stringent to keep the integrity of the medal solid, which i agree with 100%. The AF has a tendancy of wanting to give every kid a trophy and the AFCAM should not be one such trophy. When i see a guy wearing it i should know he earned it the hard way!

One thing thats maybe different with O vs E, O's are usually pilots. Pilots have 781's that they log their flighttime on. E's on the ground dont get that little tidbit of "evidence." Enlisted fliers also have 781's and when we submit an AFCAM package we send a copy of the 781 showing we were on the flight. That also lists the callsign. Then our pilot usually does the witness statement and signs it. Sometimes a intel RIP showing the call sign and actions occurred is included too. So on the flying side, all our "evidence" is pretty much cut and dried. Its already in official AF format because its on all the flight records and intel crap.

I am not really sure that anyone has sat down with the non-flying types in the AF who routinely submit AFCAM packages and said, fill out this this & this and here is a blanket witness form, have the guy fill out his data in the blanks and sign it then send it to that office and they will forward it to us. I think there is a lot of unknown out there about the procedures for the ground guys and no one is telling them an easier way to do it.

Still with all of the official forms and crap we have as fliers we get packages kicked back so i can imagine for a ground guy its even worse. To me thats probably got a HUGE bearing on the number of ground guys getting AFCAMs approved or denied! THe rotational statistics for the pilots mentioned would also play a huge role in their numbers being more represented but i would think only to a point.

I was told pilots dont just get AFCAMs for dropping ordinance, they have to be under fire, just like helo guys. We dont get the AFCAM for just flying in combat, we have to be shot at and i was told that a pilot dropping ordinance for a strike doesnt count as being engaged, thats what i was told anyway.

My thing is, there isnt this huge pilot turnover. The AF isnt losing pilots at a new faster pace right? So if you can only get it once, and its the same units rotating in and out for the CAS mission, then where are all these pilot numbers coming from? Maybe there is just a big backlog, yeah thats the ticket...

Michaep
09-29-2009, 10:06 PM
Fighting for your own CAM. Yeah, that's a great idea. No risk of looking like a self-promoting glory-seeking taint in doing that. :rolleyes:

fighting for a medal that you rightfully should have gotten? theres nothing wrong with that

thats done DAILY

from both active and retired personnel

Hear about the guy on death row who got presented his medals years later? They were rightfully his, he deserved them

ANYONE who MEETS criteria for a medal NEEDS to receive it

imported_blacksheep1208
09-29-2009, 10:13 PM
Its funny reading the enlisted whine and moan about what officers get and they don't get. The only officers who get this are maybe some pilots. The only enlisted career fields that probably get this are due to the requirements are maybe the jtacs, cct, some sp's, some other spec ops. types and thats it. If you read the fine print it says personnel who take fire and fire upon the enemy in a combat role. Sitting in the back of a c-130 looking out of the jump door window on your way into biap may or may not count just because you saw a rocket streak into war eagle or warrior up in Kirkuk. Same goes for the viper jockey who does a show of force and saw tracer fire from one building to another, those guys know if they were shot at and sure as hell know if they got to drop or shoot their m4. Same goes for the jtac who is now (in OIF, not talking OEF here), sitting in the TOC and cleared a viper driver hot. Who is in more danger?
The point is there are so few USAF types that meet the criteria and so many loons on here crying about it, its embarassing.

So you're another one that has no clue. I think you'd be surprised to find out how many enlisted airmen in the security forces, intel, and transportation career fields have been awarded this medal.

Gunner007
09-29-2009, 10:18 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but arent there more enlisted crew members on most AF aircraft than officers? What I am getting at is that the most common aircraft I think are "shot" at are C-130s and rotary wing. Each helo has 2 crewchiefs and two Officers normally right? More aircrew on the C-130 than pilots. I think people are wondering why there are so many MORE officers than enlisted getting them.

And of course how many officer fields are there that probably see fire? Its seems like the awards should reflect the demographic, maybe not 100% but within reason.

helos do NOT have crewchiefs flying in combat! The only time a crewchief flies is for testing the systems after certain MX functions! The guys flying for the missions are Gunners and flight engineers! LOL sorry just had to add that. Yes there are 2 E's as part of the crew and we usually have PJ's in the back also.

The 130's i believe have 1 FE & 1 loadmaster, i could be wrong on that though. The J model gets rid of the FE position or something like that but it has 4 O's. So a 130 i think has 4 O's and 1 or 2 E's. The AC-130 is even more screwed up and i couldnt tell you whats what on it.

Now you see a HUGE amount of C-130's claiming to be engaged and shot at in the AOR. I will probably make some enemies here but i have to say a lot of what i read over there is BS plain and simple. The reports i read say they were engaged by such & such at this altitude and anyone who knows ballistics knows that certain weapons are only effective to certain ranges. Theres no way SMARMs is threatening a 130 at some of the ranges i have read. Not saying the guys arent being shot at, they are, but many times i chuckle when i read some of the reports.

What some folks dont realize, we have actually had specific crewmembers on a flight that was shot at get AFCAM's while the guy on the other side of the helo got nothing. It dont crash in compartments! But if the gunner sees and reacts to fire and the FE's statement doesnt support that they were actively engaged in helping the gunner defeat the threat then the FE doesnt get anything and vice versa. So the statement has to be written carefully because the guy sitting on the board doesnt seem to realize that an RPG fired at a helo can kill everyone on it and it wont just wing the gunner.

Michaep
09-29-2009, 10:21 PM
Its funny reading the enlisted whine and moan about what officers get and they don't get.

The stats speak for themselves

Gee Whiz....I wonder whos writing award packages for a deployed Major?

Is it a Staff Sergeant who's writing the Majors award Packages?...nope

Its the good ol boy system......his Colonel probably....

See, he got hooked up, so now he's going to hook you up

Being that ZERO officers test for their rank, they just go in front of boards and their Time In Grade....everybody patting eachothers back

Kinda like the rich helping the rich and the noble blood helping the noble blood

SailorDave
09-29-2009, 10:32 PM
The stats speak for themselves

Gee Whiz....I wonder whos writing award packages for a deployed Major?

Is it a Staff Sergeant who's writing the Majors award Packages?...nope

Its the good ol boy system......his Colonel probably....

See, he got hooked up, so now he's going to hook you up

Being that ZERO officers test for their rank, they just go in front of boards and their Time In Grade....everybody patting eachothers back

Kinda like the rich helping the rich and the noble blood helping the noble blood

I think you'd be a fantastic reporter for militarycorruption.com.

Michaep
09-29-2009, 10:51 PM
I think you'd be a fantastic reporter for militarycorruption.com.

haha, after being in the military and seeing everything ive seen, I'm suprised theres not an enlisted drinking fountain and an officer drinking fountain

Michaep
09-29-2009, 11:23 PM
Although I will admit, Adm Mullen is a really nice Navy guy, and the highest ranked Mil individual

AF Chief
09-30-2009, 03:24 AM
That's right - I don't. And it's your guys' fault for not communicating enough to the junior enlisted your importance in the grand scheme of things. People tell me to get a clue but when none of you a-holes wanna lay out for me, don't be surprised if I come off with an attitude.

And God knows that YOU and some of those NCOs out there don't ever communicate our directions to the lower level Airmen. :eek: And some things you don't need to know, thats the nature of the Chain of Command and decisions made. Don't be surprised if I don't come off with an attitude. :lol:

Slap
09-30-2009, 03:55 AM
good god i hate politics. i love doing my job then going home and living my life. promotions, medals, awards don't mean crap to me. i could care less. im just fortunate that i have a job i love doing.

TheShaggy
09-30-2009, 04:22 AM
The 130's i believe have 1 FE & 1 loadmaster, i could be wrong on that though. The J model gets rid of the FE position or something like that but it has 4 O's. So a 130 i think has 4 O's and 1 or 2 E's. The AC-130 is even more screwed up and i couldnt tell you whats what on it.

Now you see a HUGE amount of C-130's claiming to be engaged and shot at in the AOR. I will probably make some enemies here but i have to say a lot of what i read over there is BS plain and simple. The reports i read say they were engaged by such & such at this altitude and anyone who knows ballistics knows that certain weapons are only effective to certain ranges. Theres no way SMARMs is threatening a 130 at some of the ranges i have read. Not saying the guys arent being shot at, they are, but many times i chuckle when i read some of the reports.

What some folks dont realize, we have actually had specific crewmembers on a flight that was shot at get AFCAM's while the guy on the other side of the helo got nothing. It dont crash in compartments! But if the gunner sees and reacts to fire and the FE's statement doesnt support that they were actively engaged in helping the gunner defeat the threat then the FE doesnt get anything and vice versa. So the statement has to be written carefully because the guy sitting on the board doesnt seem to realize that an RPG fired at a helo can kill everyone on it and it wont just wing the gunner.

Haven't made enemies with me buddy. I agree with you. The spike of reports after the CAM came out was ridiculous from the 130s and 17s. But on a slick it is 2 pilots, 1 nav, 1 FE and 2 loads. J's it's normally 2 pilots and 2 loads. 17's 3 pilots and 2 loads(so much for only needing 2 pilots and 1 load).

A year and a half ago I had one of my Lt Cols tried pushing me and my other load on a deployment back in 04 to push us to get the CAM for a mission we had a manpad launch at us. We looked at each other and told him that we didn't feel we earned it so we weren't going to push to get one. Lt Col was not to happy with that answer, but today I still don't have a CAM on my rack and I don't lose any sleep over it at night

Michaep
09-30-2009, 05:35 AM
The Coast Guard as well. By the way, name an English-speaking Navy that DOES have Generals. Oh wait, thwere are none.

What service puts their hands on their ass for parade rest, does not use gold "scrambled eggs" on the visors of the caps of senior officer, and has no NCO rank for E4's?

Better yet, who cares? The uniqueness of each service makes them who they are.

our E-4's and the Army's E-4's are neither NCO's if I am correct about the Army, didnt bother to look it up so Im not 100 percent sure

"ass for parade rest"? Oh wait, do you guys do that weird one forearm above the other behind your back thing? and I have no clue about eggs and hats haha....theres lightening bolts for an officers hat perhaps?

And Sailordave....my TIS and TIG is irrelevant

Michaep
09-30-2009, 05:37 AM
good god i hate politics. i love doing my job then going home and living my life. promotions, medals, awards don't mean crap to me. i could care less. im just fortunate that i have a job i love doing.

fyi...the expression is COULDN'T care less, not COULD care less

imported_BRAVO10000
09-30-2009, 09:51 AM
fighting for a medal that you rightfully should have gotten? theres nothing wrong with that

thats done DAILY

from both active and retired personnel

Hear about the guy on death row who got presented his medals years later? They were rightfully his, he deserved them

ANYONE who MEETS criteria for a medal NEEDS to receive it

Guess I should consider the source.

Seriously - it's called a "decoration" for a reason. It's an accessory. It doesn't make you a better American or warrior or any of that. Hell, it has a lower precedent than an AF Acheivement Medal. It means you got shot at, or shot at someone, in a combat zone. Specifically with the CAM - better advice would be to find a champion with some rank and let them take it up on your behalf. You know - using your chain. You'll get a lot more cooperation that way.

As for me - I think that it is all just another morsel in the fruit salad. If it isn't worth promotion points, then I wouldn't kill myself over it. But hey, some folks may feel the need to prove their worth...or compensate for something...guess it depends on how you look at it. Just saying - I am betting that if this were a Good Conduct medal we were talking about, no one would really care.

warr1or
09-30-2009, 11:37 AM
Since you do not know, why bitch about it? Since a 3 star has final approval I am guessing they had to do more then just a flyby.



If you were part of the crew but manifested as passenger you can not get it. However if you manifested as crew then all you have to do is fill out the paper work and have the commander sign it. If he does not have first hand knowledge you would have to get a witness.

What part of my post made it appear as if I was bitching? I was pointing out a fact that two of our pilots got CAM's, I could care less what the situation was.

warr1or
09-30-2009, 11:46 AM
CAM will go the same way as the bronze star - FACT - an officer at my first deployed location in the United Arab Emirates in 2003 was awarded the bronze star. FACT - said officer never left the base, and was THE SERVICES COMMANDER.

Of course, the officers running the base were Air National Guard from Peoria, IL, including a general who was the base commander who had been arrested for DUI prior to the deployment, as well as a female full bird who was sending home pallets of furniture from Saddam's palace's, not to mention the pilots who had Ak's and Mortars in camp, and also stole an entire Iraqi Anti-Aircraft gun from Baghdad International and loaded in the back of a 130, brought it to the UAE, and caused a shit storm when the Emirate Military found out.

I've seen officers break the rules too many times, so the few officers on here whining about the whiners can suck my balls.

Variable Wind
09-30-2009, 01:35 PM
helos do NOT have crewchiefs flying in combat! The only time a crewchief flies is for testing the systems after certain MX functions! The guys flying for the missions are Gunners and flight engineers! LOL sorry just had to add that. Yes there are 2 E's as part of the crew and we usually have PJ's in the back also.

The 130's i believe have 1 FE & 1 loadmaster, i could be wrong on that though. The J model gets rid of the FE position or something like that but it has 4 O's. So a 130 i think has 4 O's and 1 or 2 E's. The AC-130 is even more screwed up and i couldnt tell you whats what on it.

Now you see a HUGE amount of C-130's claiming to be engaged and shot at in the AOR. I will probably make some enemies here but i have to say a lot of what i read over there is BS plain and simple. The reports i read say they were engaged by such & such at this altitude and anyone who knows ballistics knows that certain weapons are only effective to certain ranges. Theres no way SMARMs is threatening a 130 at some of the ranges i have read. Not saying the guys arent being shot at, they are, but many times i chuckle when i read some of the reports.

What some folks dont realize, we have actually had specific crewmembers on a flight that was shot at get AFCAM's while the guy on the other side of the helo got nothing. It dont crash in compartments! But if the gunner sees and reacts to fire and the FE's statement doesnt support that they were actively engaged in helping the gunner defeat the threat then the FE doesnt get anything and vice versa. So the statement has to be written carefully because the guy sitting on the board doesnt seem to realize that an RPG fired at a helo can kill everyone on it and it wont just wing the gunner.
Oh sod off. :D I dont know all your fancy Aircrew terms...

I will agree with you on the C-130 crews getting nervous from seeing tracer fire thousands of feet below them, its not limited to the AF either, the Marine crews do the same thing.

garhkal
09-30-2009, 04:48 PM
One thing i have learned in my 18 yrs active, is that the higher the person, the bigger the award. Even if they did nothing on the project. Had a E4 and E5 who spent 500+ hrs off duty time assisting one of the AF bases in england set up a new Sipper lan in 4 buildings. Their E7 and O3 gave the ok, and lent a hand with supply getting the stuff to put in. THEY both got Flag letters of commendation, the E7 a Navy comendation medal and the O3 i cannot remember.

Gunner007
10-01-2009, 04:13 PM
And God knows that YOU and some of those NCOs out there don't ever communicate our directions to the lower level Airmen. :eek: And some things you don't need to know, thats the nature of the Chain of Command and decisions made. Don't be surprised if I don't come off with an attitude. :lol:

I may digress a little on this but i want to relate a little to your statement.

We had a chief a while back who would hold regular meetings with the SNCO's like all chiefs do. The difference was this chief also called the E-6's in for those meetings. Now what this did was allow the E-6's who fill the role of FLight NCOIC during the E-7's absence to know the Chiefs master plan and be able to keep things flowing along during those periods of time when the E-7 is TDY, on leave, or deployed.

Things ran super! All the E-6's who are shop chiefs knew the master plan and all could work together to a common end, be it the chiefs vision for the enlisted, his vision for the unit, or the pushing the CC agenda, all the shop chiefs and NCOIC's were on one sheet of music.

Now our new chief comes in. E-6's are SNCO's and thus have no seat at HIS table. We are excluded from the meetings altogether. The chief then depends on the SNCO's to effectively communicate to each shop and flight all that will be. Well show me a unit with good commo? HAHAHAHAHA! So now we have a disjointed gaggle hump going on! All the SNCO's who are new want to know why everything is so mismatched and run so screwed up. They dont understand why none of the shops know what the other shops are doing and why it seems everyone is working their own agenda. Geeeeee, i wonder?

But the chief stands by his decision, his meetings are SNCO only! Yeah, thats worked great the last year and half hasnt it? Its more important to convey the impression of having a strong SNCO mafia than it is to bend a little and convey a well run and orchestrated unit afterall!

There is a time for do as your told and dont ask questions but those times are not as frequent as some people want to believe. If a E-6 doesnt know the Chiefs agenda & the CC's agenda for the enlisted corp and for each shop then the unit will NOT function! Like it or not, E-6's are the backbone of an organisations work flow and output. They are the ones running the shops and making sure everything is working towards that agenda or common end. Now thats atleast in my community, in MX or something it could be different now days. Its important for us to know why! Its not important for EVERY Amn & NCO to know why but it is important for the shop chiefs to know why.

Gunner007
10-01-2009, 04:16 PM
Oh sod off. :D I dont know all your fancy Aircrew terms...

I will agree with you on the C-130 crews getting nervous from seeing tracer fire thousands of feet below them, its not limited to the AF either, the Marine crews do the same thing.

At least you knew i was havin' a little fun and wasnt all serious. Sometimes i have trouble conveying when i am joking or being sarcastic on here.

Variable Wind
10-01-2009, 04:19 PM
At least you knew i was havin' a little fun and wasnt all serious. Sometimes i have trouble conveying when i am joking or being sarcastic on here.

Well if you WERE serious, that would have meant you are a real ass. I know better than that.

Gunner007
10-01-2009, 04:20 PM
One thing i have learned in my 18 yrs active, is that the higher the person, the bigger the award. Even if they did nothing on the project. Had a E4 and E5 who spent 500+ hrs off duty time assisting one of the AF bases in england set up a new Sipper lan in 4 buildings. Their E7 and O3 gave the ok, and lent a hand with supply getting the stuff to put in. THEY both got Flag letters of commendation, the E7 a Navy comendation medal and the O3 i cannot remember.

Its the same way in the Helicopter! The pilot, usually a capt or higher, gets a silver star for something, the co-pilot, usually a Lt, will get the same or maybe a DFC, the enlisted guys will likely, or typically i should say, get AM's. The thing dont crash in compartments and on a helo everyone really does share the workload and buy in on the mission. Its rare to hear of some hairy mission where the aircraft commander didnt ask the entire crew if they felt comfortable doing it, ride or die, we all do it together!

Yet, the E's get a snack and the O's get a meal! Yeah, thats fair!

Gunner007
10-01-2009, 04:29 PM
young grasshopper.....im not in the army, i also made a point to state that i was not 100 percent sure on another services rank other than my own service.

You hit the nail on the head man, ouch that hurt, I'm actually a mix of Civil Air Patrol, Boy Scouts, Delta Force, a 12 yr old and 40 yr old all rolled into one

I really dont care what you think i do, or dont do....but its funny reading comments "oh yeah, well, well, well, I bet you're a 12 year old.....so eat that.....yeah....."

haha ok buddy lol

I agree as well as disagree with many of your posts on here. What i dont understand is why all the reluctance to admit your TIS or what you do? Me for instance, its quite obvious i am a gunner. If you have followed my posts you can pretty easily tell where i am stationed as well as the fact i have 10 months til i retire. I am not ashamed of what i do nor am i scared someone will be pissed about what i say on here and come seeking a piece of my ass.

I have never in my career been one to hide how i feel regardless! I dont understand the people who come on here and are shady about what their job is. Either your proud of what you do or your not! If your not, cross train or get out! I-R-Gunner! Population control specialist if you will, why should i be ashamed? If your some secret AF ninja then why even post on here? Why mask your TIS? Are you afraid your CoC is going to learn you feel a certain way and come head hunting? If so i advise you to re-evaluate everything you have said on here. If your saying one thing here and another in person your a lying hypocrite! If your not, they already know how you feel so why be scared?

I am not trying to start a pissing match with you, as i said above, i agree with a lot of your posts i just dont see why all the smoke & mirrors regarding what you do and how long you have done it?

AF Chief
10-01-2009, 11:47 PM
I may digress a little on this but i want to relate a little to your statement.

We had a chief a while back who would hold regular meetings with the SNCO's like all chiefs do. The difference was this chief also called the E-6's in for those meetings. Now what this did was allow the E-6's who fill the role of FLight NCOIC during the E-7's absence to know the Chiefs master plan and be able to keep things flowing along during those periods of time when the E-7 is TDY, on leave, or deployed.

Things ran super! All the E-6's who are shop chiefs knew the master plan and all could work together to a common end, be it the chiefs vision for the enlisted, his vision for the unit, or the pushing the CC agenda, all the shop chiefs and NCOIC's were on one sheet of music.

Now our new chief comes in. E-6's are SNCO's and thus have no seat at HIS table. We are excluded from the meetings altogether. The chief then depends on the SNCO's to effectively communicate to each shop and flight all that will be. Well show me a unit with good commo? HAHAHAHAHA! So now we have a disjointed gaggle hump going on! All the SNCO's who are new want to know why everything is so mismatched and run so screwed up. They dont understand why none of the shops know what the other shops are doing and why it seems everyone is working their own agenda. Geeeeee, i wonder?

But the chief stands by his decision, his meetings are SNCO only! Yeah, thats worked great the last year and half hasnt it? Its more important to convey the impression of having a strong SNCO mafia than it is to bend a little and convey a well run and orchestrated unit afterall!

There is a time for do as your told and dont ask questions but those times are not as frequent as some people want to believe. If a E-6 doesnt know the Chiefs agenda & the CC's agenda for the enlisted corp and for each shop then the unit will NOT function! Like it or not, E-6's are the backbone of an organisations work flow and output. They are the ones running the shops and making sure everything is working towards that agenda or common end. Now thats atleast in my community, in MX or something it could be different now days. Its important for us to know why! Its not important for EVERY Amn & NCO to know why but it is important for the shop chiefs to know why.

In my staff meeting, its a "enlisted call" every week. I have all my enlisted come so they know what is going on within the flight, squadron, and wing. Meetings generally last a half hour. Now, if I have sensitive info that only the SNCOs need to be involved than thats a separate meeting.

Michaep
10-02-2009, 07:10 PM
About 3 days ago I had an officer brief me on how deserving he was of a Bronze Star because he supervised a lot of people.......seriously?????

Awards and Decs are SO royally screwed and political its beyond fixing

I have lost all faith in the system, I can no longer look at a ribbon rack and have it mean anything significant, its a shame

Its alright though, if I EVER uncover hardcopy proof that there was a quota system for awards while deployed based on rank and number of medals awarded per squardon, all hell is going to break loose

BigT2002
10-03-2009, 12:18 PM
Its alright though, if I EVER uncover hardcopy proof that there was a quota system for awards while deployed based on rank and number of medals awarded per squardon, all hell is going to break loose

I still have one I think from Balad that they only allowed X amount of AFAMs, X amount of AFCMs, and X amount of BSs and that was it. My NCOIC sent it to me because I was bitchin because no one in our group (different base but we all fell under the 332 obviously) received one and she sent me a powerpoint that displayed the Awards & Decs procedures. So basically if you weren't fired upon while on base, you practically were not getting one.

Michaep
10-03-2009, 05:59 PM
I still have one I think from Balad that they only allowed X amount of AFAMs, X amount of AFCMs, and X amount of BSs and that was it. My NCOIC sent it to me because I was bitchin because no one in our group (different base but we all fell under the 332 obviously) received one and she sent me a powerpoint that displayed the Awards & Decs procedures. So basically if you weren't fired upon while on base, you practically were not getting one.

forward that powerpoint to the AF Times and have them publish it, that would be awesome to see

imported_oih82w8
10-03-2009, 06:03 PM
...So basically if you weren't fired upon while on base, you practically were not getting one.

I resemble that remark. Our supervision told us to put the info (from Balad) into the PCS decoration.

NFCstang
10-05-2009, 02:29 PM
About 3 days ago I had an officer brief me on how deserving he was of a Bronze Star because he supervised a lot of people.......seriously?????

Awards and Decs are SO royally screwed and political its beyond fixing

I have lost all faith in the system, I can no longer look at a ribbon rack and have it mean anything significant, its a shame

Its alright though, if I EVER uncover hardcopy proof that there was a quota system for awards while deployed based on rank and number of medals awarded per squardon, all hell is going to break loose

I hate to break it to you all, but again, the BSM is supposed to be the wartime equivelent of a MSM.

It's only when you add the "V" device that it becomes for valor. So technically, if you do a job underwartime conditions (i.e. Iraq/A-stain) that would earn you a MSM, you should be given a BSM

*NOTE - Not that I believe that they should be handing them out like candy, but them's the rules

I guess things have changed since I was at Balad in 2005. Back then, the only folks that got BSMs were
1. Wing/CC
2. Command Chief
3. ILO Grp/CC (732nd)
4. 332 ESFS/CC
5. Some of the ILO folks that were under fire
6. And maybe the OG/CC and the flying SQ/CCs

And yes....both times I was at Balad (2005/2007) there was an quota system based on direct statements by the Wing/CC in his stand-up that was something like this:

" The only medal you're promised when you come here is the OIF medal, everything else you have to earn. You shouldn't "expect" an AFAM, AFCM or MSM for doing your job and supervisors shouldn't be turning everyone they supervise in for a medal, because I won't approve them."

It basicailly came back that only about 30% of folks should be getting medals and of that, it was made clear that it was rank based i.e. if you put a Capt in for an MSM, then you 'd better have a pretty strong push statement.

I ran the MO shop with 2 enlisted. The DS made it clear that he was going to put me in for a MSM and that left me to make the decision how I was going to do the awards for my troops. I took a long hard look and eventually had to give an award to the SMSgt since he went way above to help out the units he took care of. That in no way denigrates the job my MSgt did, but given the guidence, I really didn't have a choice.

So when it ended up, I got a AFCM since I was only a Capt with a line for Major, my SMSgt got a MSM and my MSgt got a strong LOE.

BTW, I got a call about 3 months later from the MSgt's home station CC demanding to know why he didn't get a medal. I explained the Wing/CC guidance and my personnel opinion on the job that he did and still got bitched out.

I told him that if he didn't like what I did, to call the DS at Balad and discuss it with him. He actually did and got bitch slapped down/.

BigT2002
10-06-2009, 12:19 AM
I hate to break it to you all, but again, the BSM is supposed to be the wartime equivelent of a MSM.

It's only when you add the "V" device that it becomes for valor. So technically, if you do a job underwartime conditions (i.e. Iraq/A-stain) that would earn you a MSM, you should be given a BSM

*NOTE - Not that I believe that they should be handing them out like candy, but them's the rules

I guess things have changed since I was at Balad in 2005. Back then, the only folks that got BSMs were
1. Wing/CC
2. Command Chief
3. ILO Grp/CC (732nd)
4. 332 ESFS/CC
5. Some of the ILO folks that were under fire
6. And maybe the OG/CC and the flying SQ/CCs

And yes....both times I was at Balad (2005/2007) there was an quota system based on direct statements by the Wing/CC in his stand-up that was something like this:

" The only medal you're promised when you come here is the OIF medal, everything else you have to earn. You shouldn't "expect" an AFAM, AFCM or MSM for doing your job and supervisors shouldn't be turning everyone they supervise in for a medal, because I won't approve them."

It basicailly came back that only about 30% of folks should be getting medals and of that, it was made clear that it was rank based i.e. if you put a Capt in for an MSM, then you 'd better have a pretty strong push statement.

I ran the MO shop with 2 enlisted. The DS made it clear that he was going to put me in for a MSM and that left me to make the decision how I was going to do the awards for my troops. I took a long hard look and eventually had to give an award to the SMSgt since he went way above to help out the units he took care of. That in no way denigrates the job my MSgt did, but given the guidence, I really didn't have a choice.

So when it ended up, I got a AFCM since I was only a Capt with a line for Major, my SMSgt got a MSM and my MSgt got a strong LOE.

BTW, I got a call about 3 months later from the MSgt's home station CC demanding to know why he didn't get a medal. I explained the Wing/CC guidance and my personnel opinion on the job that he did and still got bitched out.

I told him that if he didn't like what I did, to call the DS at Balad and discuss it with him. He actually did and got bitch slapped down/.


I have ALWAYS been under the impression that the reason so many BSs were awarded was because you couldn't receive a MSM while in a combat situation. That it was basically an Airmans Medal. And since you could be awarded a "V" on the BS that was the loophole for all those with rank to get one.

imported_oih82w8
10-06-2009, 12:45 AM
There is a rule at UNDISCLOSED LOCATION that only one-year tour personnel (MSgt and above) were even considered eligible for MSM (B-Star)-level decorations. There seems to be a glass ceiling for less than one-year tour personnel to be awarded anything above AFCM, unless something warranted a higher decoration.

Michaep
10-06-2009, 01:50 AM
Rank has its perks I guess....which is TOTAL b.s.

Do any of you honestly think that a 1 striper could EVER qualify for the MOH??

imported_BRAVO10000
10-06-2009, 04:39 AM
Rank has its perks I guess....which is TOTAL b.s.

Do any of you honestly think that a 1 striper could EVER qualify for the MOH??

Umm...I dunno, but TWO of tthe SIX AF enlisted MOH recipients were A1Cs - John Levitow and Wiliam Pitsenbarger. Two more were Sergeants (E-4), another was a Staff and a Tech Sergeant.

Of course, every officer rank has an MOH up to Brigadier General (Doolittel).

Looks like the better question is - ever think a SNCO would qualify? NO - they would be way too busy writing decs for the SrA that "deserve" them after 4 months of watching TCNs scrub the sh*tters. :rolleyes:

Michaep
10-06-2009, 04:51 AM
Umm...I dunno, but TWO of tthe SIX AF enlisted MOH recipients were A1Cs - John Levitow and Wiliam Pitsenbarger. Two more were Sergeants (E-4), another was a Staff and a Tech Sergeant.

Of course, every officer rank has an MOH up to Brigadier General (Doolittel).

Looks like the better question is - ever think a SNCO would qualify? NO - they would be way too busy writing decs for the SrA that "deserve" them after 4 months of watching TCNs scrub the sh*tters. :rolleyes:

lol no, i didnt mean what was achieved in the past, in the REAL Air Force

I meant in today's terms.....in today's "Air Force"

Of course....terms were a little different back in the old US Military.....

"ALLEN, NATHANIEL M.

Rank and organization: Corporal, Company B, 1st Massachusetts Infantry. Place and date: At Gettysburg, Pa., 2 July 1863. Entered service at: Boston, Mass. Birth: Boston, Mass. Date of issue: 29 March 1899. Citation: When his regiment was falling back, this soldier, bearing the national color, returned in the face of the enemy's fire, pulled the regimental flag from under the body of its bearer, who had fallen, saved the flag from capture, and brought both colors off the field."

Disclaimer: No disrespect is meant towards ANY Medal Of Honor Achievement

....But once again, terms were different back then of what merits certain Medals

sandangel2001
10-06-2009, 05:13 AM
That afternoon his platoon was conducting combat control operations in an effort to reduce and control sectarian violence in the area. While Private McGinnis was manning the M2 .50-caliber Machine Gun, a fragmentation grenade thrown by an insurgent fell through the gunner's hatch into the vehicle. Reacting quickly, he yelled "grenade," allowing all four members of his crew to prepare for the grenade's blast. Then, rather than leaping from the gunner's hatch to safety, Private McGinnis made the courageous decision to protect his crew. In a selfless act of bravery, in which he was mortally wounded, Private McGinnis covered the live grenade, pinning it between his body and the vehicle and absorbing most of the explosion.


Petty Officer Monsoor took position with his machine gun between two teammates on an outcropping of the roof. While the SEALs vigilantly watched for enemy activity, an insurgent threw a hand grenade from an unseen location, which bounced off Petty Officer Monsoor's chest and landed in front of him. Although only he could have escaped the blast, Petty Officer Monsoor chose instead to protect his teammates. Instantly and without regard for his own safety, he threw himself onto the grenade to absorb the force of the explosion with his body, saving the lives of his two teammates. By his undaunted courage, fighting spirit, and unwavering devotion to duty in the face of certain death, Petty Officer Monsoor gallantly gave his life for his country, thereby reflecting great credit upon himself and upholding the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service
Thank you for exempting MOH winners..
All who dies are and should be honored. But as a friend and fellow citizen is it not correct to honor .... such valor that words fail. I can not even explain it better than that... No higher honor... something exceptional that does not happen every day.
I grant you the MOH page did not have any AF recipients from Iraq or Afghan. but ONE of these is VERY personal ....

http://www.history.army.mil/html/moh/iraq.html

imported_BRAVO10000
10-06-2009, 05:42 AM
lol no, i didnt mean what was achieved in the past, in the REAL Air Force

I meant in today's terms.....in today's "Air Force"

Of course....terms were a little different back in the old US Military.....

"ALLEN, NATHANIEL M.

Rank and organization: Corporal, Company B, 1st Massachusetts Infantry. Place and date: At Gettysburg, Pa., 2 July 1863. Entered service at: Boston, Mass. Birth: Boston, Mass. Date of issue: 29 March 1899. Citation: When his regiment was falling back, this soldier, bearing the national color, returned in the face of the enemy's fire, pulled the regimental flag from under the body of its bearer, who had fallen, saved the flag from capture, and brought both colors off the field."

Disclaimer: No disrespect is meant towards ANY Medal Of Honor Achievement

....But once again, terms were different back then of what merits certain Medals


I am certain that I have no idea what your point is. Obviously, your example above has nothing to do with the Air Force since it pre-dates man-made flight by 40 years. It would, then, serve as a terrible example of this "REAL Air Force" that you're talking about.

I have to point out that I think we have developed a dangerous mindset in some circles...that somehow this isn't really a war. We have a hard time comprehending it when we compare it to WWII for example, where we lost 19,000 in the Battle of the Bulge alone...compared to between 60-100K for Germany. So, what, since our casualty rate is 10:1, this isn't a real war?

I am beginning to think that it is our collective self-loathing that will be our undoing.

Michaep
10-06-2009, 05:55 AM
Im saying, Medals back then, whether it was 60 years prior, or 100 years prior.....criteria for Medals was a lot different

Now its really political

I think it may have something to do with the fact that we are so stuck on everything old school

I mean its nice that we have buildings named and streets named after guys who served a LONG time ago....how about we name the next Base or Airplane after someone who died in the 90's or 2000's??

BigT2002
10-06-2009, 06:05 AM
Just because they were A1C's did that mean they were E-2's?? I thought A1C's back then were of higher rank??

SailorDave
10-06-2009, 06:07 AM
Im saying, Medals back then, whether it was 60 years prior, or 100 years prior.....criteria for Medals was a lot different

Now its really political

I think it may have something to do with the fact that we are so stuck on everything old school

I mean its nice that we have buildings named and streets named after guys who served a LONG time ago....how about we name the next Base or Airplane after someone who died in the 90's or 2000's??

Normally, you'd name a base or facility after someone who's died in combat or had significant impact to the service. Who do you suggest ??

imported_BRAVO10000
10-06-2009, 08:59 AM
Just because they were A1C's did that mean they were E-2's?? I thought A1C's back then were of higher rank??

I haven't researched it but I believe an A1C has always been an E-3. Regardless, it wasn't uncommon to see a 5-year E-6 in the Vietnam era, with field promotions not being unheard of. These guys were still junior enlisted.

NFCstang
10-06-2009, 01:16 PM
lol no, i didnt mean what was achieved in the past, in the REAL Air Force

I meant in today's terms.....in today's "Air Force"

Of course....terms were a little different back in the old US Military.....

"ALLEN, NATHANIEL M.

Rank and organization: Corporal, Company B, 1st Massachusetts Infantry. Place and date: At Gettysburg, Pa., 2 July 1863. Entered service at: Boston, Mass. Birth: Boston, Mass. Date of issue: 29 March 1899. Citation: When his regiment was falling back, this soldier, bearing the national color, returned in the face of the enemy's fire, pulled the regimental flag from under the body of its bearer, who had fallen, saved the flag from capture, and brought both colors off the field."

Disclaimer: No disrespect is meant towards ANY Medal Of Honor Achievement

....But once again, terms were different back then of what merits certain Medals

True...and IIRC there was a Regiment in the Civil War in which everyone was given a MoH for reenlisting.

imported_oih82w8
10-06-2009, 05:02 PM
Just because they were A1C's did that mean they were E-2's?? I thought A1C's back then were of higher rank??

"...The end results finally became effective on 24 April 1952 with the release of a revised Air Force Regulation (AFR) 39-36. This revision changed the names of the enlisted ranks to Basic Airman, Airman Third Class, Airman Second Class, Airman First Class, Staff Sergeant, Technical Sergeant and Master Sergeant."

http://www.afhra.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-090611-103.pdf

Basic Airman E-1

A3C (Airman third class) E-2

A2C (Airman second class) E-3

A1C (Airman first class) E-4

Staff Sergeant E-5

Technical Sergeant E-6

Master Sergeant E-7

imported_BRAVO10000
10-06-2009, 08:13 PM
"...The end results finally became effective on 24 April 1952 with the release of a revised Air Force Regulation (AFR) 39-36. This revision changed the names of the enlisted ranks to Basic Airman, Airman Third Class, Airman Second Class, Airman First Class, Staff Sergeant, Technical Sergeant and Master Sergeant."

http://www.afhra.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-090611-103.pdf

Basic Airman E-1

A3C (Airman third class) E-2

A2C (Airman second class) E-3

A1C (Airman first class) E-4

SSgt E-5

Tecnical Sergeant E-6

Master Sergeant E-7


19 OCTOBER 1967 Airman grades, titles and terms of address were revised .to make the following changes and to restore NCO status to grade E-4 : Airman Basic (no stripes), Airman (one stripe), Airman First Class (two stripes), Sergeant (three stripes), Staff Sergeant through Chief Master Sergeant, and First Sergeants, no change (See Figure 7) . Reference (http://www.afhra.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-090611-103.pdf)

A1C John Levitow was awarded the Medal of Honor for actions on 24 February 1969. A1C William Pitsenbarger was awarded the Air Force Cross (and eventually the Medal of Honor) for actions on 11 April 1966. So - Pitsenbarger was an E-4, Levitow an E-3. At that time (1966), an A1C was an E-4 but was not an NCO rank. And...to my knowledge, an A1C has never been an E-2. :D

imported_oih82w8
10-06-2009, 08:21 PM
oops...forgot to keep referencing for the next update in 1967 (elimination of second and third class Airmen).

herknav
10-06-2009, 08:28 PM
This really grates me. WTF? Officers flying around are getting more CAMs from a standoff distance then our enlisted guys getting shot at on the ground. Unbelievable. You know what...I hope someday we do end up as part of the Army...this BS would stop real quick.



http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/09/airforce_CAM_092409w/

I could not disagree more. Flying itself is inherently one of the most hazardous career fields in the AF. I've lost 8 friends in training accidents during my career. Not all of us who fly do so from "standoff distances"...some of us fly right into the teeth of enemy fire (during JUST CAUSE 11 of the 15 planes in my formation got shot up...we had almost a dozen holes in our aircraft...and what award did we get?...One pilot got a Bronze Star and the rest of the crews got nothing! Not even combat pay). This doesn't even count the special ops missions I've flown under fire that can never be recognized.

Spend less time worrying about what awards others receive...they are the ones who have to be able to look themselves in the eye in the morning and they are the ones who need to tell the story behind the medal when someone asks (I think it would be quite entertaining to listen to a UAV pilot or operator justifying a Bronze Star or Air Medal..."There I was, my Predator was under fire and I was out of Coke and Hot Pockets...").

Yank1776
10-07-2009, 12:12 AM
:mad: It does make me mad that the current officer corp are more concerned with how many pretty medal they can get, than the welfare of their men I mean Major and above. Mr.Petraeus is the prime offender and so called soldier who missed out out on combat as a junior officer and only (engaged the enemy)as a two star only gunfire he heard was on tape. Yet, he managed to get a BSM for valor and a CAB.
Both of which are for direct contact ie exchanging bullets with the bad guys, something no General
has done since Korea. There is also a female 1star Signal Corp who recieved the CAB for being on a base that someone shot at . she never fired a shot.
A commisson of ex-E2,3,4 should review all officer award medal (sure). Really someone has to step in and stop all these phoney end of tour atta boys that officers award to each other

Michaep
10-07-2009, 01:59 AM
Normally, you'd name a base or facility after someone who's died in combat or had significant impact to the service. Who do you suggest ??

The same merits those people performed 50 years ago....just updated to todays current force

Chow halls, street names, parks, bases in general...etc....all named after some dude who retired decades ago or someone who died decades ago. While they still earned those right, lets acknowledge the CURRENT guys

Pueblo
10-07-2009, 02:51 AM
This really grates me. WTF? Officers flying around are getting more CAMs from a standoff distance then our enlisted guys getting shot at on the ground. Unbelievable. You know what...I hope someday we do end up as part of the Army...this BS would stop real quick.



http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/09/airforce_CAM_092409w/

Bear in mind, the non-rated officers feel the brunt of that just as much. Imagine you're an officer who is sent on in lieu of taskings half of your career, expected to accomplish something not even vaguely resembling your AFSC. Then when it comes time to hand out a star to lead your career field on a higher level, somehow flyers are still carrying the "universal management badge"??? Where was their universal management when it counted?

SQYIRE21
10-08-2009, 02:04 PM
:mad: Mr.Petraeus is the prime offender and so called soldier who missed out out on combat as a junior officer and only (engaged the enemy)as a two star only gunfire he heard was on tape. Yet, he managed to get a BSM for valor and a CAB.
Both of which are for direct contact ie exchanging bullets with the bad guys, something no General
has done since Korea. There is also a female 1star Signal Corp who recieved the CAB for being on a base that someone shot at . she never fired a shot.


Just to clarify, the US Army Requirements for the CAB are not as difficult to meet as the other services. In the Army, if you are on a FOB that recieves rockets/mortars, you MAY be able to get the CAB. (based on where you were, what you were doing, etc) This isn't so for the other services.

As for Petraeus, his vehicle was hit more than once in theater.. he earned both his CAB and BSM w/Valor.

ledthrower
10-08-2009, 06:44 PM
Being an O (prior E) I know some officers are snakes when it comes to medals. The problem is CENTAF puts out rank guidelines for each medal. The guidelines should specify work actually done in theatre, not what rank you were when in theatre. I was pretty POed when, as a Force Protection commander dodgeing rocket attacks, gettting a lesser medal than my operations guy who was always watching movies in his hootch. He got a BSM by virtue of him being a captain, actually... he wasn't a captain of anything.

ledthrower
10-08-2009, 06:49 PM
[QUOTESpend less time worrying about what awards others receive...they are the ones who have to be able to look themselves in the eye in the morning and they are the ones who need to tell the story behind the medal when someone asks (I think it would be quite entertaining to listen to a UAV pilot or operator justifying a Bronze Star or Air Medal..."There I was, my Predator was under fire and I was out of Coke and Hot Pockets...").[/QUOTE]

Awesome!!!!

NFCstang
10-08-2009, 10:14 PM
Being an O (prior E) I know some officers are snakes when it comes to medals. The problem is CENTAF puts out rank guidelines for each medal. The guidelines should specify work actually done in theatre, not what rank you were when in theatre. I was pretty POed when, as a Force Protection commander dodgeing rocket attacks, gettting a lesser medal than my operations guy who was always watching movies in his hootch. He got a BSM by virtue of him being a captain, actually... he wasn't a captain of anything.

Really? As a Capt?

imported_blacksheep1208
10-09-2009, 09:50 AM
Bear in mind, the non-rated officers feel the brunt of that just as much. Imagine you're an officer who is sent on in lieu of taskings half of your career, expected to accomplish something not even vaguely resembling your AFSC. Then when it comes time to hand out a star to lead your career field on a higher level, somehow flyers are still carrying the "universal management badge"??? Where was their universal management when it counted?

Do you really think they are going to give that star to someone without wings? I'd be willing to bet ILO deployments or not, you're not going to get it unless you are among the rated chosen ones. Unless you have some serious street cred like Gen Hayden did.

imported_BRAVO10000
10-09-2009, 10:10 AM
Do you really think they are going to give that star to someone without wings? I'd be willing to bet ILO deployments or not, you're not going to get it unless you are among the rated chosen ones. Unless you have some serious street cred like Gen Hayden did.

I know several senior officers that got stars #1 -3 without anytime in the ejection seat...I have met 3 in communications. BGen Spano, MGen Maluda and LGen Maluda, all career Comm guys. I dunno if it has anything to do with the cyber domain, but Lord and Maluda were both Generals before the change to the AF mission statement...

On one level, I will agree. Doesn't look like these officers went the traditional Group/Wing CC route; rather, they advanced through their functional communities. Spano was a Group CC...of a COMM Group. Maluda DID do some time as a NAF Vice...but that NAF is the AfNetOps (read: Comm Ops) component. Lord was a Wing CC for the 81st Training Wing, which trains...surprise...communicators.

ANGRY JTAC
10-09-2009, 10:14 PM
Really this makes us upset? How about we catch on and do what the officers do, let's SUBMIT the paper work that's required instead of hoping someone else will do it for us. Also, to look at an officer and "doubt" he did anything in combat just because he "flew over top of the ARMY in a firefight” is a little short sighted and kind of narrow minded. Just being over the battle helps the troops and if you don't believe that it's because you haven't been in combat or are just ignorant. Let me ask you this though, should you get a medal just for being in combat? To me that makes as much sense as getting a ribbon for going to basic training. We are all expected to fight when ordered. I don't need a medal that says I was there and so was the enemy, and neither should anyone else. If you did something besides just "being there" then you should be recognized for it. So you can either hate on the officers for doing what they are supposed to do or, you can follow their example and be rewarded just the same.

imported_WILDJOKER5
10-11-2009, 10:32 AM
As long as we have this class system set in the military, we will always bitch about how the "higher" class is screwing over the underclass. I am surprised the officers dont try to pull out the rule of being able to spend the wedding night wife the enlisted spouse.

Michaep
10-11-2009, 04:12 PM
Really this makes us upset? How about we catch on and do what the officers do, let's SUBMIT the paper work that's required instead of hoping someone else will do it for us. Also, to look at an officer and "doubt" he did anything in combat just because he "flew over top of the ARMY in a firefight” is a little short sighted and kind of narrow minded. Just being over the battle helps the troops and if you don't believe that it's because you haven't been in combat or are just ignorant. Let me ask you this though, should you get a medal just for being in combat? To me that makes as much sense as getting a ribbon for going to basic training. We are all expected to fight when ordered. I don't need a medal that says I was there and so was the enemy, and neither should anyone else. If you did something besides just "being there" then you should be recognized for it. So you can either hate on the officers for doing what they are supposed to do or, you can follow their example and be rewarded just the same.

if you wanna get all technical on us....

Technically....Medals should not exist then....ALL of it is our job

Jumping on a grenade is technically part of everyones job, to save your fellow US Servicemembers from death

ANGRY JTAC
10-12-2009, 02:08 AM
You make your point, lets do away with all medals. Especially if you are going to treat the person that recieved it like villain because he got it and you didn't. I am glad to see the rest of the airforce is catching on that combat is what we do and support. Thanks man!

Michaep
10-12-2009, 02:29 AM
You make your point, lets do away with all medals. Especially if you are going to treat the person that recieved it like villain because he got it and you didn't. I am glad to see the rest of the airforce is catching on that combat is what we do and support. Thanks man!

No, Im pissed that there are Medals that both myself, and my squad members should have received, as the criteria was met, and yet leadership is getting F'ing Bronze Stars?!?!?! and we're fighting for what we should rightfully receive....its WAY too political

There should be ZERO quotas based on rank and what medals people can receive off that deployment

Officers will receive __ number of medals in ____ category

Squad leaders will receive ____ number of medals in ____ categories

Turret gunners are eligible to receive ______

Dismounted patrols are eligible to receive _____

F*** THAT NONSENSE

The MOH should be eligible and open to ALL

If a public affairs 1 Striper did something to deserve it, then he needs to get it....and sorry PA guys....it needs to be more than finding a live 5.56mm round on the ground and flipping out lol

SailorDave
10-12-2009, 03:13 AM
The MOH should be eligible and open to ALL


It is and always has been.

Michaep
10-12-2009, 03:27 AM
It is and always has been.

lol....maybe on paper....not in the real world

Ruckus
10-12-2009, 03:59 AM
If a public affairs 1 Striper did something to deserve it, then he needs to get it....and sorry PA guys....it needs to be more than finding a live 5.56mm round on the ground and flipping out lol

or sitting in the backseat, taking pictures...

SailorDave
10-12-2009, 04:01 AM
lol....maybe on paper....not in the real world

Wait....are you really trying to tell me that you think the MOH is given out based upon rank ?

ramrod
10-12-2009, 04:03 AM
lol....maybe on paper....not in the real world

You must mean being put in for MOH alive vs. dead.

In any case, you never know what you're talking about.

ANGRY JTAC
10-12-2009, 04:16 AM
No, Im pissed that there are Medals that both myself, and my squad members should have received, as the criteria was met, and yet leadership is getting F'ing Bronze Stars?!?!?! and we're fighting for what we should rightfully receive....its WAY too political

There should be ZERO quotas based on rank and what medals people can receive off that deployment

Officers will receive __ number of medals in ____ category

Squad leaders will receive ____ number of medals in ____ categories

Turret gunners are eligible to receive ______

Dismounted patrols are eligible to receive _____

F*** THAT NONSENSE

The MOH should be eligible and open to ALL

If a public affairs 1 Striper did something to deserve it, then he needs to get it....and sorry PA guys....it needs to be more than finding a live 5.56mm round on the ground and flipping out lol


Can you show me where that guidance is? Also, if no one else is putting you in for a medal and I know this sounds really bad, but you can put yourself in for one. No one wants to be "that guy" but sometimes it's the only way. It's a bad situation when it comes down to that.

Ruckus
10-12-2009, 04:32 AM
I have seen where Techs and Staffs doing the same job, leading squads outside the wire, were put in for 2 different awards. BS for Techs, ARCOMs for Staffs. I always thought it was fucked up, just a little more spit in the face on top of not getting paid the same for doing the same job.

Michaep
10-12-2009, 05:15 AM
I have seen where Techs and Staffs doing the same job, leading squads outside the wire, were put in for 2 different awards. BS for Techs, ARCOMs for Staffs. I always thought it was fucked up, just a little more spit in the face on top of not getting paid the same for doing the same job.

Thats exactly what im talking about ^

Its really messed up

To sailordave: A LOT of medals are based on rank...written rules or unwritten rules

To AngryJTAC: I'll gladly be "that guy"....I dont care who gets angry phone calls, brief me all you'd like SNCO's.....US Servicemembers rightfully deserve to have their medals judged on before a panel of approved members.....YOU ARE NOT THE JUDGE.....submit my F'ing paperwork to the panel :mad:

Let THEM judge....NOT YOU

You do not have that right

SailorDave
10-12-2009, 05:24 AM
To sailordave: A LOT of medals are based on rank...written rules or unwritten rules


You made the specific statement about the MOH, which has never had any rank associated with it's awarding. I'm not making a comment on any other award, just the one you mentioned in particular. If you really didn't mean that one, you shouldn't have brought it up. I have a special place in my heart for MOH recipients. Someone makes an off comment about that, and I get real testy.

Michaep
10-12-2009, 05:33 AM
You made the specific statement about the MOH, which has never had any rank associated with it's awarding. I'm not making a comment on any other award, just the one you mentioned in particular. If you really didn't mean that one, you shouldn't have brought it up. I have a special place in my heart for MOH recipients. Someone makes an off comment about that, and I get real testy.

ok....lets think about this one....

Wait, first of all, you do realize that someone got awarded the MOH for simply "maintaining military bearing" on a plane that was getting shot at.....you know that, right? I forget the details but it was a well known case and its a sore thumb to the MOH

Anyway, back to my point, as political as Medals are becoming these days, and as many investigations into why the F*** there arent any living MOH awards to living soldiers in the current wars, yes.....Rank DOES get involved

How many Navy Crosses and AF Crosses have been awarded in the Iraq/Afghanistan wars?

Much less, a living MOH award?

How many Silver Stars?

When the Bronze Star Medal has a higher pass rate than the AF Combat Action Medal....THATS A BIG PROBLEM

ANGRY JTAC
10-12-2009, 05:33 AM
Thats exactly what im talking about ^

Its really messed up

To sailordave: A LOT of medals are based on rank...written rules or unwritten rules

To AngryJTAC: I'll gladly be "that guy"....I dont care who gets angry phone calls, brief me all you'd like SNCO's.....US Servicemembers rightfully deserve to have their medals judged on before a panel of approved members.....YOU ARE NOT THE JUDGE.....submit my F'ing paperwork to the panel :mad:

Let THEM judge....NOT YOU

You do not have that right

It would probaly piss you off to know that most of the "awards boards" are made up entirely of officers then.

The USAF does have a habit of basing medals off of rank and not performance. (Even though the AFI says that's a foul.) How do you fight that though with out proof? Until our SNCOs and Os stop doing this "They can't have it until I do" mentality we'll always be this way. I guess I was lucky though most of the squadrons I have been in don't do that.

Michaep
10-12-2009, 05:36 AM
It would probaly piss you off to know that most of the "awards boards" are made up entirely of officers then.

The USAF does have a habit of basing medals off of rank and not performance. (Even though the AFI says that's a foul.) How do you fight that though with out proof? Until our SNCOs and Os stop doing this "They can't have it until I do" mentality we'll always be this way. I guess I was lucky though most of the squadrons I have been in don't do that.

I believe I read the AFCAM board is 3 officers and 2 SNCO's

Then of course a 3 Star General has the final sign off on it

Sh*t....might as well get the POTUS to sign off on it.....if it needs a 3 Star....

SailorDave
10-12-2009, 05:44 AM
ok....lets think about this one....

Wait, first of all, you do realize that someone got awarded the MOH for simply "maintaining military bearing" on a plane that was getting shot at.....you know that, right? I forget the details but it was a well known case and its a sore thumb to the MOH

I've never heard that and it sounds more like an urban myth than truth. Unless you can find the appropriate citation with that info, you're just talking out of your @ss.

BigT2002
10-12-2009, 12:28 PM
ok....lets think about this one....

Wait, first of all, you do realize that someone got awarded the MOH for simply "maintaining military bearing" on a plane that was getting shot at.....you know that, right? I forget the details but it was a well known case and its a sore thumb to the MOH

Um, that isn't even close to being the worse case of something happening:

During the Civil War, Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton promised a Medal of Honor to every man in the 27th Regiment, Maine Infantry who extended his enlistment beyond the agreed upon date. Many stayed four days extra, and then were discharged. Due to confusion, Stanton awarded a Medal of Honor to all 864 men in the regiment

Thankfully they were recinded in 1916. This is the one decoration that should never just be handed out. Also, wasn't it meant to be for enlisted folks and not officers??



How many Navy Crosses and AF Crosses have been awarded in the Iraq/Afghanistan wars?

There have been quite a few actually. Believe there have been more AF Crosses during GWOT than the time between Vietnam and 2001, to include at a CCT who was still breathing when he received his. It is supposed to be a RARE decoration is it not?



Much less, a living MOH award?

Whot the hell knows why this is going on. I still think a big thing in regards to it is that living MOH people do not feel that whoever is being put in for it (who knows how many are actually put up for the award) warrant the medal in comparison to what we saw as a nation for our Armed Forces in Vietnam, Korea, and WWII.



When the Bronze Star Medal has a higher pass rate than the AF Combat Action Medal....THATS A BIG PROBLEM

Totally agree and I think that still has to do with the MSM not being able to be awarded in hostile areas (at least how it was explained to me) so the BS took its place. I know the figures a few years ago had us awarding more per year than all three other branches combined. All those SNCO's and Senior Officers need their medal.

Ruckus
10-12-2009, 12:47 PM
Totally agree and I think that still has to do with the MSM not being able to be awarded in hostile areas (at least how it was explained to me) so the BS took its place. I know the figures a few years ago had us awarding more per year than all three other branches combined. All those SNCO's and Senior Officers need their medal.

MSMs are authorized in the AOR. I've seen several given to SNCOs who weren't in operational leadership billets over the last couple of years.

Bronze Stars are being handed out like fucking candy because for years they weren't attainable due to no war, at least not on the scale we have now. So, every careerist fag just HAS to have one before the opportunity is gone. Pokemon! Gotta catch 'em all!

TSgt"M"
10-12-2009, 02:17 PM
As a junior NCO with a MSM I was hated by all zero's who saw me ware it. Becareful what you wish for.

BigT2002
10-12-2009, 03:20 PM
MSMs are authorized in the AOR. I've seen several given to SNCOs who weren't in operational leadership billets over the last couple of years.

Bronze Stars are being handed out like fucking candy because for years they weren't attainable due to no war, at least not on the scale we have now. So, every careerist fag just HAS to have one before the opportunity is gone. Pokemon! Gotta catch 'em all!

Not doubting you but this is what I found in regards to the MSM requirements:


This decoration was established by Executive Order 11448 on Jan. 16, 1969. The Meritorious Service Medal (pictured below) may be awarded to any member of the Armed Forces of the United States who distinguishes themselves by either outstanding achievement or meritorious service to the United States.

This award was established as the counterpart of the Bronze Star Medal for the recognition of meritorious noncombat service.

The medal was designed by Jay Morris and sculptered by Lewis J. King, Jr., both of the Army's Institute of Heraldry. It is a one and one-half inch medallion in bronze, on the obverse as eagle wings upraised, standing upon two upward curving branches of laurel tied with a ribbon between the talons of the eagle, above and behind the eagle the upper part of a five-pointed star (with two smaller stars outlined within) on a incised plaque with six points starting at the top of each wing of the eagle. The reverse is plain with a circular inscription in raised letters, "United States of America" and "Meritorious Service" separated by dots.

The ribbon is purplish red with a quarter inch white stripe one-eighth inch from each edge.



However, I do remember a few years ago there was a policy change where it could now be awarded within the AOR's. However, the Uniform Portal we have is complete garbage and I can't find it.

Michaep
10-12-2009, 04:40 PM
See, here's the problem.....

We have too many Medals between the lowest and highest Medal awarded

On the other hand, we also cant get rid of medals because then there would just be mass issuing of that one medal that took the place of 3 medals for example

The problem is the mass out performing that needs to be accomplished

Do something INCREDIBLE to receive the Silver Star

Then OUTPERFORM the Silver Star to achieve the AF Cross

Then do something to outperform Both the AF Cross AND Silver Star to achieve the MOH

Exactly how can something like that be measured? The answer is, it cant.

After all that outperforming thats done......it turns into someone needing to catch bullets with his teeth and kill the terrorists with laser beams from their eyes

Take this for example....

"Master Sergeant Timothy A. Wilkinson is a retired Pararescueman who earned the Air Force Cross for the Battle of Mogadishu. At the time of the battle, Technical Sgt. Wilkinson was part of a 15-man combat search and rescue team to get the two UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter crews out after they were shot down. His mission was supporting Task Force Ranger during the longest sustained firefight by U.S. forces since the Vietnam War. For his heroic actions in Somalia, he was awarded the Air Force Cross, and became the first enlisted person to earn it since 1975.[1] MSgt Wilkinson was portrayed by Ty Burrell in Black Hawk Down. [2]"

We've all seen Blackhawk Down....how can the above situation possibly be differentiated between the Silver Star, AF Cross, MOH....etc.....???

Skyhawk
10-12-2009, 07:26 PM
Based on the statistics, something isn’t right. The ground pounding, convoy driving enlisted force is more at risk in this engagement than flyers. Appears officers are cooking the books.

Its really a shame. When I look at an enlisted person with a CAM or Bronze Star, I know they most likely earned it. For officers, with all due respect, I don't feel the same. Never have since we handed out Bronze Stars to officers who never left conus (Whiteman AFB) years ago. Seems some things never change. Too bad for the officer who really earned it, your brethren cheapened the award.

All of this would have been entirely impossible if the USAF had come down off its high horse and recognized the Army's coveted Combat Infantry Badge (CIB.) Only in the USAF are airmen who completed infantry training, deployed with infantry units, and fought ground engagements with infantry, denied the right to wear the CIB.

But no, the US Air Force has to be "special," and deny its members the right to wear foreign service badges fairly earned. In the US Army, Navy, and Marines, a member can wear those badges earned. Why the USAF needs to be different is stupefying. It seems to my eyes to point toward stubborn parochialism, and that's a threadbare excuse to do the fair and equitable thing.

So, instead the USAF created this new medal, and created somewhat vague criteria so that those who should be wearing CIB cannot be the ONLY ones eligible to wear the combat medal.

I have deployed, but I refused to submit eligibility for this medal because I knew what it was for. Regardless of my eligibility as an aviator, I knew it was in lieu of the CIB this medal was created and I therefore know there are unique dangers these airmen face that I do not. The Air Force created this mess and the Air Force needs to fix it -- immediately!

Authorize airmen to wear the CIB. Do it now! Stop the insane stubborness and do it now!

Ruckus
10-12-2009, 11:02 PM
Only in the USAF are airmen who completed infantry training, deployed with infantry units, and fought ground engagements with infantry, denied the right to wear the CIB.

Authorize airmen to wear the CIB. Do it now! Stop the insane stubborness and do it now!

You're thinking of the Combat Action Badge. Only 11 (Infantry) or 18 (Special Forces) series soldiers are awarded the CIB. The CAB is for everyone else.

BUT, I agree 100% with you on your sentiments. I'll go one further and throw combat patches out there.

SailorDave
10-13-2009, 12:36 AM
BTW, the Navy and Marine Corps also aren't allowed to wear the CAB or CIB. Even if they earned it while in the Army, they can wear the CAR in it's place. And the restrictions on earning the CAR are much stiffer now than they used to be. We can only get it if we were directly involved in a firefight or if we had an IED detonate against the same vehicle we were riding in. No mortars/rockets hitting the FOB or anything like that.

When the two ships that had rockets fired against it (didn't even impact) got the entire ships awarded the CAR, even the Commandant of the Marine Corps refused to allow his Marines to wear the CAR. And that awarding to the two ships set off a crap storm that makes it difficult to justify it with anything other than the aforementioned firefight or IED strike. I believe this also applies to fighter and helos that don't come under direct fire, also. I have no statistics to know for sure, but the Navy is very strict about it.

BOUTYM
10-13-2009, 04:27 AM
O's looking out for themselves? No way! Say it ain't so. That's why I chose not to become one of them. Enlisted folks have more fun anyway. Have never been the country club type. Don't get me wrong, I have met a few O's that stand for what is right and just, but the key word there is 'few'. The rest... well, you know how who you are.

chucksnee
10-13-2009, 01:47 PM
The only thing I will say to help O's (in the Army anyway) is that the rating system is all screwed up for them....The way they are rated is "below center mass", "center mass", and "above center mass".

The commander is told that only 10% (just a fictional number, not sure what the actual % is) can get "above center mass". So if you have ten officers that means only 1 can get above center mass.....

BOUTYM
10-13-2009, 01:55 PM
The only thing I will say to help O's (in the Army anyway) is that the rating system is all screwed up for them....The way they are rated is "below center mass", "center mass", and "above center mass".

The commander is told that only 10% (just a fictional number, not sure what the actual % is) can get "above center mass". So if you have ten officers that means only 1 can get above center mass.....

While the rating system may be screwed up, screwed up iis pretty much universal anytime the government is involved. However, it does not give anyone in the officer ranks the right to be an out and out asshole.

Bears0910
10-13-2009, 04:17 PM
This grates me also. I spent a year in Iraq with a four man team teaching Iraqi's and we all got shot at the same and two members of the team recieved the medals and two of us did not. The process for this award needs to be re-addressed and have more enlisted input. I also think it should be reviewed by someone who has "been there, done that" instead of someone who has never been down range and holds down a desk! If it wasn't for us enlisted the officers would be in a world of hurt!

BOUTYM
10-13-2009, 04:44 PM
If it wasn't for us enlisted the officers would be in a world of hurt!

You know that, I know that and even the O's know that, but you won't find many of them admitting it. I often compare the O's with salespeople and the E's with techs in the business world. The sales folks run around thinking they are God and are the only reason the business stays afloat. What they fail or refuse to understand is that those techs can both fix things and if given the techniques can also sell those things. In fact, tech types make very good sales types because they've seen the 'other' side. Tech types turned sales also tend to have a higher regard for the tech types.

I've always believed and my belief has been proven time and time again over my many years of service that with few exceptions O's will never sacrifice anything for the benefit of the enlisted. They will hang everyone out to dry including their own in order to save their own ass, even if their own ass doesn't deserve saving.

CYBERFX1024
10-13-2009, 05:06 PM
Hey Sailor Dave you are correct. I was on the MEU with the 2 ships that got shot at. BTW it was the Ashland and the Kearsarge. I had buddies of mine who were on ship, and some who were providing security at the time. They didn't rate it, but the ship did. It went up to a 3 star who denied it, but a one star approved it. So my buddy always wore a CAR with a star, with the paper were the one star signed it. But my buddies who providing security, were left behind in port, and the rest of the Marines were 200 miles in land.

NFCstang
10-13-2009, 05:11 PM
I've always believed and my belief has been proven time and time again over my many years of service that with few exceptions O's will never sacrifice anything for the benefit of the enlisted. They will hang everyone out to dry including their own in order to save their own ass, even if their own ass doesn't deserve saving.

That's sad that you've had taht experience.

I've laid my ass out plenty of times for my E's and I'd do it again in a heartbeat

Skyhawk
10-14-2009, 02:17 AM
That's sad that you've had taht experience.

I've laid my ass out plenty of times for my E's and I'd do it again in a heartbeat

Precisely!

I'm a Major, and I've made my views on the medal very clear.

However, if folks here want to just turn this thread into a bash officers under pseudonyms, then why let us stop you!

imported_BRAVO10000
10-14-2009, 05:39 AM
The commander is told that only 10% (just a fictional number, not sure what the actual % is) can get "above center mass". So if you have ten officers that means only 1 can get above center mass.....

Wasn't the last promotion rate to Major like 96.4%?


However, if folks here want to just turn this thread into a bash officers under pseudonyms, then why let us stop you!

I thought this WAS an officer bashing thread...I was looking forward to that...

I don't think officers are as bad as they are described here, at least not in all cases. Sometimes it seems as they come from a different Air Force than the enlisted...because they do.

In the last ten years or so, I have had the opportunity to partner with 1 LTs and Captains (and an occasional Major) directly and have started to understand and appreciate the pressure that they are under early in their careers. There's the expectation to make perfect decisions from the junior enlisted, the pressure from their peers NOT to be a company man (in the military of all places) and the back-stabbing politics in their ranks, the sometimes-awkward relationship with their SNCO (being called "sir" by a guy 20 years your senior just feels unnatural to many) and the culture that establishes a one-mistake working environment; it is a lot to deal with.

Their age demographic peers in the junior enlisted ranks have far less pressure. They do have to become skilled at some point and they do have to put up with a lot of dumb crap that rolls downhill...but their military day ends when they reach the parking lot. When they do finally lead for the first time, it is not usually that operational leadership that demands that every decision be the right one.

So tell me then - if one guy is 25 years old, babysitting a gate or turning wremches and another guy is 25 years old and leading 50 people in the accomplishment of a theater-wide mission with far-reaching impact....WHY should they be considered for the same decoration?

The Dec should be about going above and beyond, but let's get real. Not all levels of effort are equal.

wtrwalker
10-14-2009, 10:17 AM
I was deployed with the Army when our FOB came under attack, SAF, Mortar and Rocket. Airmen along with Army Soldiers provided base defense. I myself had to tactically make my way to my hummer to provide base defense while under attack. Although I did not return fire, because I was too busy trying not to get shot, I was right there on the wall with tracers whizzing over my head. Some Soldiers that took cover in bunkers received CAM's while Airmen on the wall got denied. I think the whole "Inside/Outside FOB" rule should be re-evaluated as well. If you're out in the open with no protection and you're being fired upon, what difference does it make if you're on the FOB or off; you're still being fired upon. People are getting CAM's while sitting inside of an up armored hummer and ONE round was fired in their direction but made no contact.
My Battle Captain submitted me for the AFCAM and it got shot down. When I returned to my unit, my Commander thought I deserved one, he resubmitted my package with more justification and IT got shot down. Granted, there are Airmen, Soldiers, Sailors and Marines that deserve it far more than I and I'm not sour about it but I think if you're going to award someone for combat or displaying courage under fire, they should have done something to earn it.
Much respect to those on the FRONT line. Come home safe.

BOUTYM
10-14-2009, 12:45 PM
That's sad that you've had taht experience.

I've laid my ass out plenty of times for my E's and I'd do it again in a heartbeat

In 28 years I've never seen anything different except, as I've said, with few exceptions. Could be you're one of the exceptions.

chucksnee
10-14-2009, 01:05 PM
Wasn't the last promotion rate to Major like 96.4%?


I never said it had anything to do with there promotions....Officers promotions are just as bad as NCO promotions...they are giving away Major almost like they are giving away E-5....

Michaep
10-14-2009, 05:15 PM
I was deployed with the Army when our FOB came under attack, SAF, Mortar and Rocket. Airmen along with Army Soldiers provided base defense. I myself had to tactically make my way to my hummer to provide base defense while under attack. Although I did not return fire, because I was too busy trying not to get shot, I was right there on the wall with tracers whizzing over my head. Some Soldiers that took cover in bunkers received CAM's while Airmen on the wall got denied. I think the whole "Inside/Outside FOB" rule should be re-evaluated as well. If you're out in the open with no protection and you're being fired upon, what difference does it make if you're on the FOB or off; you're still being fired upon. People are getting CAM's while sitting inside of an up armored hummer and ONE round was fired in their direction but made no contact.
My Battle Captain submitted me for the AFCAM and it got shot down. When I returned to my unit, my Commander thought I deserved one, he resubmitted my package with more justification and IT got shot down. Granted, there are Airmen, Soldiers, Sailors and Marines that deserve it far more than I and I'm sour about it but I think if you're going to award someone for combat or displaying courage under fire, they should have done something to earn it.
Much respect to those on the FRONT line. Come home safe.

:mad: .....this type of stuff pisses me off more and more every single day, I keep on hearing the same stories of deserving people getting denied.....who the f*** are these people to judge the "merit" of the medals?

ALL MEDALS DESERVE TO BE JUDGED BY AN APPROVED BOARD, not some guy who sits in a desk and DOESNT EVEN KNOW THE PROPER REGS ON MEDALS

I'll GLADLY fight these issues ALL the way to the TOP.....I have enough guys at my base alone with these same stories of denials, i'll just need to get their signed statements and push it up from there

This is a major injustice and it WILL be fixed

haha you can laugh all you like and think nothing will change, and maybe youre correct, but its worth a major effort to fix these wrongs

STODR
10-14-2009, 08:37 PM
Wasn't the last promotion rate to Major like 96.4%?





2009 it was 74%

NFCstang
10-14-2009, 08:41 PM
In 28 years I've never seen anything different except, as I've said, with few exceptions. Could be you're one of the exceptions.

I'd like to think so.

One of the best memories of my career was when I was a 1Lt doing an AWO on MX at Andrews. We had to move some heavy equipment so I pitched in and and got it moved.

No biggie right?

About 3 months later I was having a going away party and one of the MX shirts came up and told me that it impressed the shit out of a bunch of old school NCOs and SNCOs that were watching the whole goat rope that I jumped in and helped their airmen move shit while the MX officers just sat and watched.

I've tried to remember that with everything I've done since then. I have no problem either jumping in and lending a hand or taking the bullet for something one of my enlisted has done.

I feel bad for both the officers that aren't like that and the enlisted that have to serve under them


I never said it had anything to do with there promotions....Officers promotions are just as bad as NCO promotions...they are giving away Major almost like they are giving away E-5....

True, but the problem is that over the past 4-6 years, the promotion rate to O4 has been high since back in the mid-90s they had cut the acessions right after the Desert Storm. My ROTC class only had 6 people in it and I think we were one of the years (along with 95-96)during PBD 720 that had to take a minimum amount of cuts since most of the AFSCs were already at minimum manning.

imported_BRAVO10000
10-14-2009, 08:45 PM
I never said it had anything to do with there promotions....Officers promotions are just as bad as NCO promotions...they are giving away Major almost like they are giving away E-5....

Tracking. Just think it is funny that a senior officer touts "above center mass" as the top 10%but that doesn't really seem to factor in for many, many years...

chucksnee
10-15-2009, 01:10 PM
True, but the problem is that over the past 4-6 years, the promotion rate to O4 has been high since back in the mid-90s they had cut the acessions right after the Desert Storm. My ROTC class only had 6 people in it and I think we were one of the years (along with 95-96)during PBD 720 that had to take a minimum amount of cuts since most of the AFSCs were already at minimum manning.


Agreed, but you know why the 0-4 rate is so high and given it away....becasue all the mid term 0-3's are getting their education and getting the hell out....that is why 0-3 have such a high bonus rate to stay in...some are and some not....Why put up with the crap that goes in on the Army at basically at a lower wage earning when they can get out with a great education and start making real money....and lets not forget....in the Army you are required to work 12 - 16 hours a day everyday and sometimes weekends....

I know I said required and it may not be, HOWEVER if you do not work that long then you will be given a bad report and thought of as a dirt bag....

chucksnee
10-15-2009, 01:15 PM
Tracking. Just think it is funny that a senior officer touts "above center mass" as the top 10%but that doesn't really seem to factor in for many, many years...


That many many years is down to about 6-7 from the time they came in for a first look for 0-4....

Just a scary as a 2 year E-5.

Silver Fox
10-15-2009, 10:04 PM
You serious?

Yeah he is, and I haven't seen a whole hell of a lot to make me say otherwise either, especially having been in those meetings listening to the E-7's and above say things like, "Fuck the Airmen they can deal with it", "I don't really give a fuck what the Airmen will think of it", "Who gives a fuck if someone loses a day off" etc. etc. etc.

burtch07
10-16-2009, 11:51 AM
simple fact is that the awards and decorations system is flawed just like the epr system!! i've seen this 1st hand being deployed with army for 365. BSMs have lost their value (except for points testing) and CAMs aren't awarded enough to me in my opinion. Recognize the people that really truly desreve it!!

burtch07
10-16-2009, 11:57 AM
I was deployed with the Army when our FOB came under attack, SAF, Mortar and Rocket. Airmen along with Army Soldiers provided base defense. I myself had to tactically make my way to my hummer to provide base defense while under attack. Although I did not return fire, because I was too busy trying not to get shot, I was right there on the wall with tracers whizzing over my head. Some Soldiers that took cover in bunkers received CAM's while Airmen on the wall got denied. I think the whole "Inside/Outside FOB" rule should be re-evaluated as well. If you're out in the open with no protection and you're being fired upon, what difference does it make if you're on the FOB or off; you're still being fired upon. People are getting CAM's while sitting inside of an up armored hummer and ONE round was fired in their direction but made no contact.
My Battle Captain submitted me for the AFCAM and it got shot down. When I returned to my unit, my Commander thought I deserved one, he resubmitted my package with more justification and IT got shot down. Granted, there are Airmen, Soldiers, Sailors and Marines that deserve it far more than I and I'm not sour about it but I think if you're going to award someone for combat or displaying courage under fire, they should have done something to earn it.
Much respect to those on the FRONT line. Come home safe.

VERY WELL PUT AND TOTALLY AGREE, I WAS IN SIMILAR SITAUTION!!

imported_Steveo16220
10-20-2009, 06:41 PM
I was deployed with the Army when our FOB came under attack, SAF, Mortar and Rocket. Airmen along with Army Soldiers provided base defense. I myself had to tactically make my way to my hummer to provide base defense while under attack. Although I did not return fire, because I was too busy trying not to get shot, I was right there on the wall with tracers whizzing over my head. Some Soldiers that took cover in bunkers received CAM's while Airmen on the wall got denied. I think the whole "Inside/Outside FOB" rule should be re-evaluated as well. If you're out in the open with no protection and you're being fired upon, what difference does it make if you're on the FOB or off; you're still being fired upon. People are getting CAM's while sitting inside of an up armored hummer and ONE round was fired in their direction but made no contact.
My Battle Captain submitted me for the AFCAM and it got shot down. When I returned to my unit, my Commander thought I deserved one, he resubmitted my package with more justification and IT got shot down. Granted, there are Airmen, Soldiers, Sailors and Marines that deserve it far more than I and I'm not sour about it but I think if you're going to award someone for combat or displaying courage under fire, they should have done something to earn it.
Much respect to those on the FRONT line. Come home safe.


If you were too busy taking cover, how did you know ONE round was fired in the direction of the HWMMV, of the troops who received their AFCAM? Also, you state you went to your HWMMV and then also state you were on the wall of defense. Which one is it?
Next time return fire and don't just sit there. There is clear guidance on the inside/outside the FOB. Sitting on your hands while your getting attacked does NOT qualify for this medal. Since when, do you expect this award if you don't even do anything except take cover during a fire fight?

Award criteria- Ground

3. ENCAMPMENTS, COMPOUNDS, AND PROTECTED AREAS (INSIDE THE DEFENDED PERIMETER) WILL NORMALLY NOT QUALIFY AS VENUES FOR THIS AWARD UNLESS THE INDIVIDUAL IS SERVING IN A DEFENSIVE CAPACITY, TAKING FIRE, AND ENGAGING THE ENEMY.

Clear as day. ENGAGING THE ENEMY

imported_Steveo16220
10-20-2009, 06:53 PM
simple fact is that the awards and decorations system is flawed just like the epr system!! i've seen this 1st hand being deployed with army for 365. BSMs have lost their value (except for points testing) and CAMs aren't awarded enough to me in my opinion. Recognize the people that really truly desreve it!!

Nothing flawed about the EPR system. If raters would rate accordingly, than there wouldn't be a problem. Seeing that doesn't happen, and SSgt's just hand out 5's because it's easier, and they don't actual hold troops accountable, doesn't mean it's flawed. That's how its always been, the supervisors are the ones who are flawed.

wzl238
10-20-2009, 07:22 PM
Air Crew already have several awards and medals specifically for them. The Combat Action Medal should be for ground forces only.

burtch07
10-21-2009, 05:11 AM
Nothing flawed about the EPR system. If raters would rate accordingly, than there wouldn't be a problem. Seeing that doesn't happen, and SSgt's just hand out 5's because it's easier, and they don't actual hold troops accountable, doesn't mean it's flawed. That's how its always been, the supervisors are the ones who are flawed.

TRUE!! Good point

imported_AF-1Sgt
10-21-2009, 12:25 PM
Nothing flawed about the EPR system. If raters would rate accordingly, than there wouldn't be a problem. Seeing that doesn't happen, and SSgt's just hand out 5's because it's easier, and they don't actual hold troops accountable, doesn't mean it's flawed. That's how its always been, the supervisors are the ones who are flawed.

Sorry, I disagree. When the system was first developed, everyone I dealt with did as they were supposted to, but not long into it, we were briefed by the MXS CC that if anyone got less than a 5, they don't deserve a medal when they PCS. I had a package for a troop come across my desk for a 3 year medal. He had a firewall, a 5 w/1 markdown, and a firewall. We had to fight to get him his medal to include a push note detailing what the markdown was for and why we thought he had improved. How canyou put this fault on the shoulders of the SSgt?

Michaep
10-21-2009, 06:46 PM
If you were too busy taking cover, how did you know ONE round was fired in the direction of the HWMMV, of the troops who received their AFCAM? Also, you state you went to your HWMMV and then also state you were on the wall of defense. Which one is it?
Next time return fire and don't just sit there. There is clear guidance on the inside/outside the FOB. Sitting on your hands while your getting attacked does NOT qualify for this medal. Since when, do you expect this award if you don't even do anything except take cover during a fire fight?

Award criteria- Ground

3. ENCAMPMENTS, COMPOUNDS, AND PROTECTED AREAS (INSIDE THE DEFENDED PERIMETER) WILL NORMALLY NOT QUALIFY AS VENUES FOR THIS AWARD UNLESS THE INDIVIDUAL IS SERVING IN A DEFENSIVE CAPACITY, TAKING FIRE, AND ENGAGING THE ENEMY.

Clear as day. ENGAGING THE ENEMY

Wrong. You are NOT required to return fire, only to be in grave danger outside the wire getting shot at for example

if you read the rest of the regs you'll see that returning fire isnt always required, due to not having positive ID of the target for example

Ruckus
10-22-2009, 03:32 AM
Wrong. You are NOT required to return fire, only to be in grave danger outside the wire getting shot at for example

if you read the rest of the regs you'll see that returning fire isnt always required, due to not having positive ID of the target for example

True, but I'll be that guy and say that in this situation, he should have popped his firing eye and rifle over his cover and laid down some hate. While it is fairly important to not get shot, this huddling behind cover shit during a fight is fucking ridiculous. Jesus.

Silver Fox
10-22-2009, 07:38 AM
That many many years is down to about 6-7 from the time they came in for a first look for 0-4....

Just a scary as a 2 year E-5.

There's nothing scary as a 2 year E-5 (Which is impossible btw....)

The scary thing is IMMATURE anything. Leadership ability and maturity is NOT judged by TIS or TIG, thanks.

NFCstang
10-22-2009, 02:49 PM
There's nothing scary as a 2 year E-5 (Which is impossible btw....)

.

Lies...any 2Lt:D

chucksnee
10-22-2009, 03:57 PM
There's nothing scary as a 2 year E-5 (Which is impossible btw....)

The scary thing is IMMATURE anything. Leadership ability and maturity is NOT judged by TIS or TIG, thanks.

Minimum Eligibility Requirements for Sergeant (E-5)


Time-in-service requirement is 36 months
(18 months for the secondary zone)
Time-in-grade requirement for is eight months as a CPL/SPC
(four months for those recommended in the secondary zone)

Sorry....and lets not forget that there are waviers out there that can wave everything stated above....

I do agree with your statments though....Leadership ability is maturity and SHOULD NOT be judged by TIS or TIG.....However this happens all the time....look around, it may not happen where you are at but it does and there are 2 year E-5 out there....

Lets say a Soldier comes in as an E-4 (basic training) 8weeks, AIT (we will use my AIT at 16 weeks) he is already eligable to be in the secondary zone for E-5....

Never say impossible....

Silver Fox
10-22-2009, 06:35 PM
Minimum Eligibility Requirements for Sergeant (E-5)


Time-in-service requirement is 36 months
(18 months for the secondary zone)
Time-in-grade requirement for is eight months as a CPL/SPC
(four months for those recommended in the secondary zone)

Sorry....and lets not forget that there are waviers out there that can wave everything stated above....

I do agree with your statments though....Leadership ability is maturity and SHOULD NOT be judged by TIS or TIG.....However this happens all the time....look around, it may not happen where you are at but it does and there are 2 year E-5 out there....

Lets say a Soldier comes in as an E-4 (basic training) 8weeks, AIT (we will use my AIT at 16 weeks) he is already eligable to be in the secondary zone for E-5....

Never say impossible....


I was referring to the Air FOrce.... you won't see a 2 year E-5 in the Air Force.

Army promotes way quicker than us, which I see as a good thing.... some of the time.

bcoco14
10-22-2009, 07:47 PM
I was referring to the Air FOrce.... you won't see a 2 year E-5 in the Air Force.

Army promotes way quicker than us, which I see as a good thing.... some of the time.

Not true I had a guy graduate basic as a TSgt when I came in.

chucksnee
10-22-2009, 10:57 PM
Army promotes way quicker than us, which I see as a good thing.... some of the time.

It has it's good and bad....I would rather we (Army) took a test to see if we can advance to a senior Enlisted than just someone looking at your promotion packet....I feel that the Army would be much better off than we are now........Even to E-4 or E-5 we get asked question that have NOTHING to do with our MOS/job...total BS...

I guess that goes back to "if your Army you are a ground pounder (Infantry) no matter what). Or if you can quote a regulation that has nothing to do with your work or your job it makes you a better Soldier....

Not everybody does this in the Army, but in my old MOS, if we did not like you we sent you off to either maintenance which allowed yuo to go to college on a more regular basis that in flight....

More college means faster/quicker promotion....does not matter if he/she can not do the job...but they can write a counseling statement faster than anyone in the company.....

A quick E-5 in MOST cases is scary.....not all the time...but mostly.....

BRUWIN
10-22-2009, 11:02 PM
Not true I had a guy graduate basic as a TSgt when I came in.

He was band then. Why does band automatically promote to TSgt? Anybody know the reason for that? I'm thinking it's an incentive thing but really I'm just guessing.

Silver Fox
10-23-2009, 12:07 AM
It has it's good and bad....I would rather we (Army) took a test to see if we can advance to a senior Enlisted than just someone looking at your promotion packet....I feel that the Army would be much better off than we are now........Even to E-4 or E-5 we get asked question that have NOTHING to do with our MOS/job...total BS...

I guess that goes back to "if your Army you are a ground pounder (Infantry) no matter what). Or if you can quote a regulation that has nothing to do with your work or your job it makes you a better Soldier....

Not everybody does this in the Army, but in my old MOS, if we did not like you we sent you off to either maintenance which allowed yuo to go to college on a more regular basis that in flight....

More college means faster/quicker promotion....does not matter if he/she can not do the job...but they can write a counseling statement faster than anyone in the company.....

A quick E-5 in MOST cases is scary.....not all the time...but mostly.....


Hey Air Force is the same way.... you'll take two tests, one about your job, and one about bullshit.

You really need both a board and a test.

bcoco14
10-23-2009, 07:44 AM
He was band then. Why does band automatically promote to TSgt? Anybody know the reason for that? I'm thinking it's an incentive thing but really I'm just guessing.

That is correct he was band. He also had a masters in Music Theory.

Combat correspondent
10-23-2009, 08:07 AM
Not true I had a guy graduate basic as a TSgt when I came in.

He was a member of the AF Premier Band then. As a minimum requirement, they have Master's Degrees in music and cannot commission and still play. So --- to get these bandsmen w/ Master's Degrees, the DoD accepts them in the E-6 rank. I don't like it but it is what it is.

Combat correspondent
10-23-2009, 08:08 AM
He was a member of the AF Premier Band then. As a minimum requirement, they have Master's Degrees in music and cannot commission and still play. So --- to get these bandsmen w/ Master's Degrees, the DoD accepts them in the E-6 rank. I don't like it but it is what it is.

I guess I should have read on before chiming in. There, I was the third to say he was band and the second to say he had a Master's. Fun, fun, fun!

Michaep
10-24-2009, 05:58 PM
Minimum Eligibility Requirements for Sergeant (E-5)


Time-in-service requirement is 36 months
(18 months for the secondary zone)
Time-in-grade requirement for is eight months as a CPL/SPC
(four months for those recommended in the secondary zone)

Sorry....and lets not forget that there are waviers out there that can wave everything stated above....

I do agree with your statments though....Leadership ability is maturity and SHOULD NOT be judged by TIS or TIG.....However this happens all the time....look around, it may not happen where you are at but it does and there are 2 year E-5 out there....

Lets say a Soldier comes in as an E-4 (basic training) 8weeks, AIT (we will use my AIT at 16 weeks) he is already eligable to be in the secondary zone for E-5....

Never say impossible....

a 2 year E-5 is better than a 105 year old Army PFC's that seem to litter the Army everywhere

AF Old Guy= MSgt or above or Lt Col or above

Army Old Guy= "couldnt find work, recruiter let me join at 40+ years old as a Private"

chucksnee
10-24-2009, 08:23 PM
a 2 year E-5 is better than a 105 year old Army PFC's that seem to litter the Army everywhere

AF Old Guy= MSgt or above or Lt Col or above

Army Old Guy= "couldnt find work, recruiter let me join at 40+ years old as a Private"


Ummm yea O.K. there big guy...they are called Active Reserve.....they can only get rank if there is a slot for that particular rank....

But I guess you are the know it all Air Force guy.....

KT3
10-25-2009, 05:59 AM
a 2 year E-5 is better than a 105 year old Army PFC's that seem to litter the Army everywhere

AF Old Guy= MSgt or above or Lt Col or above

Army Old Guy= "couldnt find work, recruiter let me join at 40+ years old as a Private"

Saw a 42 year old female Private last week. Reservist. xD

Michaep
10-25-2009, 08:17 AM
Saw a 42 year old female Private last week. Reservist. xD

hahahaha.....wow...thats pretty sad.

I go to salute a Full Bird and find out its only an E-1 or E-2.........

Michaep
10-25-2009, 08:18 AM
Ummm yea O.K. there big guy...they are called Active Reserve.....they can only get rank if there is a slot for that particular rank....

But I guess you are the know it all Air Force guy.....

well of course, theyre ALL reservists......no, not really, theyre NOT all reservists

The "Over The Hill" folks can still be ACTIVE DUTY Army

chucksnee
10-25-2009, 12:39 PM
well of course, theyre ALL reservists......no, not really, theyre NOT all reservists

The "Over The Hill" folks can still be ACTIVE DUTY Army

Agreed we (the Army) lowered our standards to let people in.....you cannot tell a reservist from active.....

Age was one of them....but on the other side I would take a 40 year old E-4 over a 20 year old E-4 any day of the year....just becasue.....

And your comment """The "Over The Hill" folks can still be ACTIVE DUTY Army""""

Many many people come in becasue they want to serve.....remember Tillman....the football player....or what about the 55 year old brain surgeon that joined.....these guys were really over the hill.....

imported_Steveo16220
10-27-2009, 02:26 AM
Sorry, I disagree. When the system was first developed, everyone I dealt with did as they were supposted to, but not long into it, we were briefed by the MXS CC that if anyone got less than a 5, they don't deserve a medal when they PCS. I had a package for a troop come across my desk for a 3 year medal. He had a firewall, a 5 w/1 markdown, and a firewall. We had to fight to get him his medal to include a push note detailing what the markdown was for and why we thought he had improved. How canyou put this fault on the shoulders of the SSgt?

Has nothing to do with the EPR. You are talking about a Dec. The EPR is the only thing in question here. If the SSgt rated the troop right, and the way he she felt, and the way the troop earned, a commanders decision to give or not give a DEC has little to nothing to do with the way the SSgt rated the troop. That is a commanders decision on awarding criteria. IMO

Comm Chief
10-27-2009, 12:37 PM
Has nothing to do with the EPR. You are talking about a Dec. The EPR is the only thing in question here. If the SSgt rated the troop right, and the way he she felt, and the way the troop earned, a commanders decision to give or not give a DEC has little to nothing to do with the way the SSgt rated the troop. That is a commanders decision on awarding criteria. IMO

Sorry Steve, you are way off. EPRs are the source documents for the decoration and have everything to do with approval.

Measure Man
10-27-2009, 12:51 PM
Sorry, I disagree. When the system was first developed, everyone I dealt with did as they were supposted to, but not long into it, we were briefed by the MXS CC that if anyone got less than a 5, they don't deserve a medal when they PCS. I had a package for a troop come across my desk for a 3 year medal. He had a firewall, a 5 w/1 markdown, and a firewall. We had to fight to get him his medal to include a push note detailing what the markdown was for and why we thought he had improved. How canyou put this fault on the shoulders of the SSgt?

That is exactly right. EPRs were slowly getting inflated...but seemed like something around 2001 or so, all the senior raters started expecting firewall 5s to approve a decoration...and that's when inflation really took off. The intent was for EPRs to drive decorations down...but the end result was decorations are driving EPRs up.

While, true that the correct answer is..."just think about the EPR when you write the EPR, and don't worry about the decoration until you write the decoration"...it really comes down to the same thing...what does your "integrity" tell you to do when you know that giving a just EPR will end up in an unjust result.

We have a systemic problem with the EPR...not simply a "problem with all SSgts" in the AF.

imported_Steveo16220
10-27-2009, 01:12 PM
Sorry Steve, you are way off. EPRs are the source documents for the decoration and have everything to do with approval.

While your meat comes from a ratee's EPR (bullets), while writing the EPR, why on earth are you thinking about if this kid is getting a medal when you should be basing your opinion on his duty performance, work ethic, military baring, ect ect ect...? That's not your JOB to worry about what the commanders requirements for a decoration. (At that point in time) That is the troops job. If the troop doesn't meet that standard, than he had better do something about it, rather make the SSgt or whoever is writing the EPR, to fudge something just b/c the troop wants a dec. Sorry.

You shouldn't write and EPR based on what the requirement for a decoration by the current commander is.

wtrwalker
12-15-2009, 02:30 PM
If you were too busy taking cover, how did you know ONE round was fired in the direction of the HWMMV, of the troops who received their AFCAM? Also, you state you went to your HWMMV and then also state you were on the wall of defense. Which one is it?
Next time return fire and don't just sit there. There is clear guidance on the inside/outside the FOB. Sitting on your hands while your getting attacked does NOT qualify for this medal. Since when, do you expect this award if you don't even do anything except take cover during a fire fight?

Award criteria- Ground

3. ENCAMPMENTS, COMPOUNDS, AND PROTECTED AREAS (INSIDE THE DEFENDED PERIMETER) WILL NORMALLY NOT QUALIFY AS VENUES FOR THIS AWARD UNLESS THE INDIVIDUAL IS SERVING IN A DEFENSIVE CAPACITY, TAKING FIRE, AND ENGAGING THE ENEMY.

Clear as day. ENGAGING THE ENEMY

You CLOWN!! Where did I say that I was too busy taking cover? I was trying not to get shot by moving from corner to corner making my way back to my HMWWV. At which time I got in and drove to a ramp on the FOB perimeter. Not sure if you've seen them but they piled some dirt up in the shape of a slope leading up to the top of the wall so the gunner can return fire. The second statement you said, made absolutely no sense, so no comment on that garbage. It's also kind of hard to return fire WHEN YOU'RE THE DAMN DRIVER OF THE TRUCK. Try reading before you post trash next time CLOWN! Did you even bother to read your own quote? " UNLESS THE INDIVIDUAL IS SERVING IN A DEFENSIVE CAPACITY, TAKING FIRE,"

"Clear as day, Fobbit"

imported_Steveo16220
12-15-2009, 03:25 PM
You CLOWN!! Where did I say that I was too busy taking cover? I was trying not to get shot by moving from corner to corner making my way back to my HMWWV. At which time I got in and drove to a ramp on the FOB perimeter. Not sure if you've seen them but they piled some dirt up in the shape of a slope leading up to the top of the wall so the gunner can return fire. The second statement you said, made absolutely no sense, so no comment on that garbage. It's also kind of hard to return fire WHEN YOU'RE THE DAMN DRIVER OF THE TRUCK. Try reading before you post trash next time CLOWN! Did you even bother to read your own quote? " UNLESS THE INDIVIDUAL IS SERVING IN A DEFENSIVE CAPACITY, TAKING FIRE,"

"Clear as day, Fobbit"

I think you should heed your own advice. Everything I said, quoted or relayed in my message was taken from your original post. Your lack of justification left A LOT for interpretation. Not my fault, that's yours.

If you refer back to your post at #175, this is your quote:


""I myself had to tactically make my way to my hummer to provide base defense while under attack. Although I did not return fire, because I was too busy trying not to get shot, I was right there on the wall with tracers whizzing over my head""


Now, call me a, Fobbit, all you want, but from what YOU, YOURSELF, described, you weren't doing anything. How on EARTH are you providing base defense, when you just sat there? Ya know, your job, if it was providing base defense, is to actually fire back and, well, PROVIDE DEFENSE! I couldn't imagine someone NOT returning fire, while at the same time, NOT taking cover. It makes no sense. And if any of this was encompassed in your DEC package, I can very easily see why the 0-7/8 turned you down for an award.

Also, you forgot the last part of the criteria for the award. The part I specifically quoted in my original post. When a sentence includes the word, AND, that means you need to have that as well. Not just the first two requirements and not the last.

THE INDIVIDUAL IS SERVING IN A DEFENSIVE CAPACITY, TAKING FIRE, AND ENGAGING THE ENEMY.

SO, you do not qualify for this Dec based on your version of the events. The first post, you made it clear that you did not return fire and just sat there. The most recent post you switched your story and said you were driving a HWMMV. I could careless. If you want to gripe about not getting a DEC, make sure you at least have an accurate story.

wtrwalker
12-16-2009, 12:25 PM
I think you should heed your own advice. Everything I said, quoted or relayed in my message was taken from your original post. Your lack of justification left A LOT for interpretation. Not my fault, that's yours.

If you refer back to your post at #175, this is your quote:


""I myself had to tactically make my way to my hummer to provide base defense while under attack. Although I did not return fire, because I was too busy trying not to get shot, I was right there on the wall with tracers whizzing over my head""


Now, call me a, Fobbit, all you want, but from what YOU, YOURSELF, described, you weren't doing anything. How on EARTH are you providing base defense, when you just sat there? Ya know, your job, if it was providing base defense, is to actually fire back and, well, PROVIDE DEFENSE! I couldn't imagine someone NOT returning fire, while at the same time, NOT taking cover. It makes no sense. And if any of this was encompassed in your DEC package, I can very easily see why the 0-7/8 turned you down for an award.

Also, you forgot the last part of the criteria for the award. The part I specifically quoted in my original post. When a sentence includes the word, AND, that means you need to have that as well. Not just the first two requirements and not the last.

THE INDIVIDUAL IS SERVING IN A DEFENSIVE CAPACITY, TAKING FIRE, AND ENGAGING THE ENEMY.

SO, you do not qualify for this Dec based on your version of the events. The first post, you made it clear that you did not return fire and just sat there. The most recent post you switched your story and said you were driving a HWMMV. I could careless. If you want to gripe about not getting a DEC, make sure you at least have an accurate story.

I could give a rats ass about the damn DEC. I posted my story to simply state that when $&*! hit the fan, members of a "different" service ran for the bunker and got DECs. I provided base defense and didn't qualify. That's all I wanted to say. I don't care if I get one or not, I'm just tired of the "system" giving out medals like candy to troops that didn't earn them.
And if you have nothing better to do than blog all day and TRY and put folks down, then I feel sorry for you. I've been in two operations and took fire both times and that was by choice, I volunteered and I would volunteer again and I'm sure the next time I go, I'll see people getting DEC's for wearing one more reflective belt than they were supposed to. Which is just fine with me, I'm going to do what I gotta do. You should too.

imported_blacksheep1208
12-16-2009, 12:49 PM
I could give a rats ass about the damn DEC. I posted my story to simply state that when $&*! hit the fan, members of a "different" service ran for the bunker and got DECs. I provided base defense and didn't qualify. That's all I wanted to say. I don't care if I get one or not, I'm just tired of the "system" giving out medals like candy to troops that didn't earn them.
And if you have nothing better to do than blog all day and TRY and put folks down, then I feel sorry for you. I've been in two operations and took fire both times and that was by choice, I volunteered and I would volunteer again and I'm sure the next time I go, I'll see people getting DEC's for wearing one more reflective belt than they were supposed to. Which is just fine with me, I'm going to do what I gotta do. You should too.

You just got burned.

Michaep
12-18-2009, 09:19 PM
"THE INDIVIDUAL IS SERVING IN A DEFENSIVE CAPACITY, TAKING FIRE, AND ENGAGING THE ENEMY."


......FALSE

They were smart enough to realize that you CANNOT always return fire when you do not have positive ID of the target.

Returning Fire IS NOT required

imported_Steveo16220
12-18-2009, 09:52 PM
"THE INDIVIDUAL IS SERVING IN A DEFENSIVE CAPACITY, TAKING FIRE, AND ENGAGING THE ENEMY."


......FALSE

They were smart enough to realize that you CANNOT always return fire when you do not have positive ID of the target.

Returning Fire IS NOT required

That would be the same as your base receiving mortar/missle/RPG fire, which you are not entitled to a AFCAM. You, your comrades and your base are under attack from an indirect standpoint, but you do not qualify for the medal.

Firing, which is directly in the latest regulation I saw for the medal, is required. If you didn't have to fire, everyone who was on a base, with a weapon could try and justify they took cover, but did not fire back that while under ground attack, could receive a AFCAM. :rolleyes:

As far as the boys situation, this is a casual forum, if he can't handle someone responding to a post, than get off. If he thinks everything I replied with, was a personal attack, he needs to become more secure about himself.

I thought DISCUSSION boards were for, DISCUSSION, opinions in a casual setting. Meh, oh well.

Michaep
12-18-2009, 10:07 PM
That would be the same as your base receiving mortar/missle/RPG fire, which you are not entitled to a AFCAM. You, your comrades and your base are under attack from an indirect standpoint, but you do not qualify for the medal.

Firing, which is directly in the latest regulation I saw for the medal, is required. If you didn't have to fire, everyone who was on a base, with a weapon could try and justify they took cover, but did not fire back that while under ground attack, could receive a AFCAM. :rolleyes:

As far as the boys situation, this is a casual forum, if he can't handle someone responding to a post, than get off. If he thinks everything I replied with, was a personal attack, he needs to become more secure about himself.

I thought DISCUSSION boards were for, DISCUSSION, opinions in a casual setting. Meh, oh well.

For the purposes of this award, combat conditions are met when;

1) Individuals deliberately go into unsecured space (outside the defended perimeter) to conduct official duties, on the ground and in the air;

2) they come under enemy fire by lethal weapons while performing those duties; and

3) are at risk of grave danger.

Or, individuals defending the base (on the defended perimeter) and come under fire and engage the enemies with direct and lethal fire, and at risk of grave danger, also meet the intent of combat conditions for this award.

ONLY ON BASE INCIDENTS REQUIRE RETURN OF FIRE.

OFF BASE INCIDENTS DO NOT REQUIRE RETURN OF FIRE

imported_Steveo16220
12-18-2009, 10:38 PM
For the purposes of this award, combat conditions are met when;

1) Individuals deliberately go into unsecured space (outside the defended perimeter) to conduct official duties, on the ground and in the air;

2) they come under enemy fire by lethal weapons while performing those duties; and

3) are at risk of grave danger.

Or, individuals defending the base (on the defended perimeter) and come under fire and engage the enemies with direct and lethal fire, and at risk of grave danger, also meet the intent of combat conditions for this award.

ONLY ON BASE INCIDENTS REQUIRE RETURN OF FIRE.

OFF BASE INCIDENTS DO NOT REQUIRE RETURN OF FIRE


Last time I checked, a FOB, was a base. Just forward? :D

Michaep
12-19-2009, 12:15 AM
Last time I checked, a FOB, was a base. Just forward? :D

the point was, the AFCAM can be awarded WITHOUT shooting back....IF the incident occurs OFF base

imported_Steveo16220
12-19-2009, 02:09 AM
the point was, the AFCAM can be awarded WITHOUT shooting back....IF the incident occurs OFF base

Doesn't apply to the story at hand. What I stated form the reg, came from the "In a defensive posture portion of an on base incident".

JD2780
12-22-2009, 06:24 AM
The AFCAM is a joke.

Michaep
12-22-2009, 08:19 AM
The AFCAM is a joke.

youre entitled to your own opinion...but its not shared by everyone :)

JD2780
12-22-2009, 07:20 PM
Michaep you are correct

BRUWIN
06-30-2013, 07:35 AM
I thought you loved officers?!?

Just the hot female ones.