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TWC760
09-17-2009, 09:28 AM
So I sent an email to almost everyone in my chain of command(including my commander) that I am a homosexual. Does this mean I will be automatically kicked out? Are they actually going to investigate and see if I'm really gay? Or will they tolerate my gayness because they need me? I'm way past the point of caring who thinks I'm gay or not, and if I do get discharged...oh well, not the end of the world. Oh yea, I'm in the Air Force BTW.

BRUWIN
09-17-2009, 10:37 AM
Just show up to unit PT in those new and approved PT running shorts and that would eliminate any further doubt on your supervision's part. And to be honest, you'll be gone.

Battleshort
09-17-2009, 10:48 AM
...and offer to fellate your CC.

ConfusedAirman
09-17-2009, 11:00 AM
Why did you feel the need to announce it? Couldn't you just live the way you wanted and as openly as you wanted while still following the basic concept of don't ask/don't tell? To me, this isn't living a lie anymore than heterosexuals not climbing on their commander's desk announcing their heterosexuality. I realize that there are nuances to the basic "don't" rule where it seems official action can start simply if a third party accuses you. If that were to occur, then it becomes a "don't lie" situation, wait to see what happens, and fight if you want.

But it seems that your purpose was simply to make a statement. As such, I hope you are discharged immediately, regardless of whether they need you. I also hope that the day after your discharge is effective, the policy changes to allow gays but your discharge stands because you broke the rules that existed at the time of your actions. The AF doesn't need grandstanders.

CrustySMSgt
09-17-2009, 11:05 AM
What's there to investigate; you've admitted it. I'd probably go ahead and start packing (leave it alone Machine666... rofl)

Not sure whay your rationale was... if it was to force your units hand and see what they did, I'd say they've got no choice but to discharge you... if it was to test the waters and see if they'd let you stay; might have worked if you stuck to sharing this with your CC personally... but the fact that you shotgunned out an email, now it has everyone attention.

Hope it works out how you wanted...

Measure Man
09-17-2009, 11:23 AM
Why did you feel the need to announce it? Couldn't you just live the way you wanted and as openly as you wanted while still following the basic concept of don't ask/don't tell? To me, this isn't living a lie anymore than heterosexuals not climbing on their commander's desk announcing their heterosexuality. I realize that there are nuances to the basic "don't" rule where it seems official action can start simply if a third party accuses you. If that were to occur, then it becomes a "don't lie" situation, wait to see what happens, and fight if you want.

But it seems that your purpose was simply to make a statement. As such, I hope you are discharged immediately, regardless of whether they need you. I also hope that the day after your discharge is effective, the policy changes to allow gays but your discharge stands because you broke the rules that existed at the time of your actions. The AF doesn't need grandstanders.

I can't speak for this young man...but having spoken to a few others in this situation, the reason why they opted to "tell" rather than just live the life is because normally...for simply telling that you are gay, you get an honorable discharge. If you are "found out" to be gay, you often get some other than honorable.

Measure Man
09-17-2009, 11:24 AM
So I sent an email to almost everyone in my chain of command(including my commander) that I am a homosexual. Does this mean I will be automatically kicked out? Are they actually going to investigate and see if I'm really gay? Or will they tolerate my gayness because they need me? I'm way past the point of caring who thinks I'm gay or not, and if I do get discharged...oh well, not the end of the world. Oh yea, I'm in the Air Force BTW.

Most likely you will be discharged.

Your CC does have the option of not believing you...I'm sure he'll let you know shortly whether or not he is initiating discharge actions.

smarg
09-17-2009, 11:24 AM
Homosexuality is a filthy, disease-ridden practice explicitly condemned by God.

And, TWC, you may also be a piece of feces worker who doesn't meet appointments, pays his bills, or has a good work ethic, and is just using this as a gimmick to get out from your enlistment. If you're this type of individual, the JAG already has the pre-filled out paperwork for you.

NEXT.

Measure Man
09-17-2009, 11:25 AM
Homosexuality is a filthy, disease-ridden practice explicitly condemned by God.

...and Santa Claus isn't too fond of it either.

smarg
09-17-2009, 11:29 AM
...and Santa Claus isn't too fond of it either.

Yes, but if you're a Catholic priest playing Santa Claus, you may very well be fond of little boys. :D

bb stacker
09-17-2009, 11:29 AM
What's there to investigate; you've admitted it. I'd probably go ahead and start packing (leave it alone Machine666... rofl)

Not sure whay your rationale was... if it was to force your units hand and see what they did, I'd say they've got no choice but to discharge you... if it was to test the waters and see if they'd let you stay; might have worked if you stuck to sharing this with your CC personally... but the fact that you shotgunned out an email, now it has everyone attention.

Hope it works out how you wanted...

he already admitted that he has been doing that.

TWC760
09-17-2009, 11:35 AM
I can't speak for this young man...but having spoken to a few others in this situation, the reason why they opted to "tell" rather than just live the life is because normally...for simply telling that you are gay, you get an honorable discharge. If you are "found out" to be gay, you often get some other than honorable.

Yes, actually this is exactly why I did it. I heard that if my command simply finds out by being tipped off, then I could get a general discharge and lose benefits. I have reason to believe that my command would find out that I am gay sooner or later.

smarg
09-17-2009, 11:38 AM
Yes, actually this is exactly why I did it. I heard that if my command simply finds out by being tipped off, then I could get a general discharge and lose benefits. I have reason to believe that my command would find out that I am gay sooner or later.

So why did you enlist of your own free will then, knowing and signing the rules/enlistment beforehand?

Are you a dreg, trying to scam out of your enlistment early because you don't like people telling you what to do?

Homosexuality is a filthy, disease-ridden practice explicitly condemned by God.

Word.

TWC760
09-17-2009, 11:45 AM
So why did you enlist of your own free will then, knowing and signing the rules/enlistment beforehand?

Are you a dreg, trying to scam out of your enlistment early because you don't like people telling you what to do?

Homosexuality is a filthy, disease-ridden practice explicitly condemned by God.

Word.

I really didn't think anyone would care about my sexual orientation when I enlisted. I don't flaunt it around at work or anything. But apparently there are some people here that, like you, seem to be overly interested in my personal life. So what, I'm gay. I'm not going to rape anyone...

I believe having heterosexual relations is an abomination and is condemned by Ammon-Zeus himself! May the Gods save you!!!

CrustySMSgt
09-17-2009, 11:48 AM
I believe having heterosexual relations is an abomination and is condemned by Ammon-Zeus himself! May the Gods save you!!!

Unless that includes solo action... I think smarg is safe; word on the streets is smarg don't get much of the heterosexual relations. That's why he's always so grumpy! :D

bb stacker
09-17-2009, 11:49 AM
word of advice

you never go ass to mouth

CrustySMSgt
09-17-2009, 11:49 AM
Unless that includes solo action... I think smarg is safe; word on the streets is smarg don't get much of the heterosexual relations. That's why he's always so grumpy! :D

oh wait... if you're loving on yourself... isn't that kinda homosexual? :eek:

But I digress... lol

CrustySMSgt
09-17-2009, 11:52 AM
Yes, actually this is exactly why I did it. I heard that if my command simply finds out by being tipped off, then I could get a general discharge and lose benefits. I have reason to believe that my command would find out that I am gay sooner or later.

Can't speak to your specific situation... but just throwing it out there... not sure if it applies in this situation... but I know it does in cases such as illegal drug use. Admitting illegla behavior because you suspect you may be under investigation negates any positive outcome... if your CC had already found out and was in the process of an investigation, you may be too late.

TWC760
09-17-2009, 12:02 PM
Can't speak to your specific situation... but just throwing it out there... not sure if it applies in this situation... but I know it does in cases such as illegal drug use. Admitting illegla behavior because you suspect you may be under investigation negates any positive outcome... if your CC had already found out and was in the process of an investigation, you may be too late.

I see. Does anyone know what the worst possible outcome is? Could I be dishonorably discharged? Also, does anyone know what the most likely outcome is?

AFCARTOONIST
09-17-2009, 12:07 PM
I don't flaunt it around at work or anything.

What would you call sending an email about it to your entire chain of command?

TWC760
09-17-2009, 12:15 PM
What would you call sending an email about it to your entire chain of command?

Telling them I'm gay so that I don't recieve as harsh a punishment/discharge for them finding out on their own.

Measure Man
09-17-2009, 12:28 PM
I see. Does anyone know what the worst possible outcome is? Could I be dishonorably discharged? Also, does anyone know what the most likely outcome is?

If this is a flat-out, you told your CC...he had no idea, you were not officially under investigation...then you normally would get an honorable.

If they are arlready investigating you for something (not simply for BEING gay...) then...depends on what that is and what kind of goods they got on you...were you caught in the act in the parking lot or something?

Either way...this would be a good time to contact your ADC. (Probably should have done it before you sent the email). Whether you are under investigation...or will simply be honorably discharged...the ADC will assist you.

AFCARTOONIST
09-17-2009, 12:35 PM
Obviously every case is unique, but I've worked alongside many gay people in my career who "didn't flaunt it" and no one who they didn't want to know was aware of their sexual orientation. That's not to say they were living a lie; they just didn't make their personal lives anyone's business.

If you really weren't flaunting it, then no one would know and there would be no reason to self incriminate. That is, unless you wanted out of the military...

TWC760
09-17-2009, 12:38 PM
unless you wanted out of the military...

Not really, actually I want to join the reserves and finish out my 20 years with them.

AFCARTOONIST
09-17-2009, 12:40 PM
Oh. In that case, I'm afraid you may have shot yourself in the foot. I really don't know anything about the legal system other than off-duty employment though, so my word is worth jack.

Measure Man
09-17-2009, 12:44 PM
If you really weren't flaunting it, then no one would know and there would be no reason to self incriminate. That is, unless you wanted out of the military...

I don't flaunt my heterosexuality...but everyone in my office knows I'm married and carrying on a heterosexual lifestyle.

AFCARTOONIST
09-17-2009, 12:48 PM
I don't flaunt my heterosexuality...but everyone in my office knows I'm married and carrying on a heterosexual lifestyle.

Ah, I stand corrected. :D

bb stacker
09-17-2009, 12:49 PM
I don't flaunt my heterosexuality...but everyone in my office knows I'm married and carrying on a heterosexual lifestyle.

i dont think they know, but their mom's do.:D

dan5522
09-17-2009, 12:58 PM
Unfortunately once you outted yourself there is nothing any branch can do, AD, Reserve, or ANG. If you remember there was a statement that you signed off on the very first visit to your recruiters office, the statement is call The Applicant Briefing on Separation Policy. You may want to look at that to see what the possible punishments could be.

dan5522
09-17-2009, 12:59 PM
http://dont.stanford.edu/regulations/1304.26attach2.pdf

CrustySMSgt
09-17-2009, 01:07 PM
Either way...this would be a good time to contact your ADC. (Probably should have done it before you sent the email). Whether you are under investigation...or will simply be honorably discharged...the ADC will assist you.

Good catch MM... meant to include that in my post as well.

imported_WRA342
09-17-2009, 02:43 PM
Yes, separation is in your future. We had a female verbally admit her preference and was discharged in less than 90 days. Had another who just wanted out and chose this option. No investigation needed when you self ID.

technomage1
09-17-2009, 03:00 PM
Yes, you've painted yourself into a corner with the self ID. I don't know your circumstances, but if you had been the victim of a "witch hunt" you may have had a chance. Now you've got none at all.

imported_Seasons
09-17-2009, 03:03 PM
Now why the hell did my response get deleted? I basically said everything everybody afterwards said.

Measure Man
09-17-2009, 03:06 PM
Now why the hell did my response get deleted? I basically said everything everybody afterwards said.

Yours was in another duplicate thread...

Gunner007
09-17-2009, 03:13 PM
I really didn't think anyone would care about my sexual orientation when I enlisted. I don't flaunt it around at work or anything. But apparently there are some people here that, like you, seem to be overly interested in my personal life. So what, I'm gay. I'm not going to rape anyone...

I believe having heterosexual relations is an abomination and is condemned by Ammon-Zeus himself! May the Gods save you!!!

Look, just because i like women doesnt mean i am going to rape one either but they dont let me shower with them do they? They dont let me share a tent with them under normal circumstances during deployments do they? I dont share a latrine with them do i?

Thats the same line of thinking i have regarding your homosexuality. I'm Christian but i dont care if your gay. Thats between you and God, its not for me to judge. If you were in my unit would i be polite to you knowing your gay, of course i would, as i Christian i am suppose to try and love all Gods children. Would i invite you to my house, no. Would i want to room with you while deployed, hell no! Would i want to be in the same shower trailer/tent as you at the same time, hell no!

For the same reasons i am not allowed to do those things with women, i dont want to do them with you. Not because you may like my junk, not because i am scared you might try and rape me or something, simply because it makes me uncomfortable just like a woman would be uncomfortable sharing her facilities with me. I dont think being gay makes you less of a hard worker or less capable. I think the military in general cant absorb the cost associated, especially right now, with allowing gays to serve openly, and creating all the new facilities it would take to cater to your lifestyle.

That in essence is my problem with gays openly serving in the military.

Gunner007
09-17-2009, 03:15 PM
I see. Does anyone know what the worst possible outcome is? Could I be dishonorably discharged? Also, does anyone know what the most likely outcome is?

You outed yourself. All the people i have heard of doing that except the one army guy who's CC let him stay in anyway, has been discharged. As far as i have heard they all received honorable discharges but thats just from what i have heard. I would expect you would receive pretty much the same treatment as a CO does when they decide they cant stomach war anymore.

They give you a HD and send you on your way.

Gunner007
09-17-2009, 03:20 PM
Telling them I'm gay so that I don't recieve as harsh a punishment/discharge for them finding out on their own.

AS i said, i dont wish you any ill will but i have to ask.

Why on earth would you do something so stupid before you actually talked to the ADC about this? Why didnt you research the right and wrong way to do it and find out what your chances were before you did it. To me it seems reckless and stupid. The ADC could have helped guide you in the proper way of doing something like this so you had the best chances of coming out of it under your own terms instead of being at the mercy of others.

It makes me wonder what type of Amn/NCO you really are? I have to think, either you really didnt like the AF or maybe you didnt like your job? Or you are seriously one reckless haphazard Amn/NCO who is willing to take insanely stupid risks without thinking? Either way it is beginning to sound to me like your not compatible with the military and not because your gay but because of other reasons!

Gunner007
09-17-2009, 03:23 PM
Unfortunately once you outted yourself there is nothing any branch can do, AD, Reserve, or ANG. If you remember there was a statement that you signed off on the very first visit to your recruiters office, the statement is call The Applicant Briefing on Separation Policy. You may want to look at that to see what the possible punishments could be.

Maybe he can say he went to some religious retraining camp and got reprogrammed and isnt gay anymore and should be allowed to enlist in the reserves?

You know if he was a she this whole thing would be moot! We had a female Capt get caught with a coworkers wife in their car during our christmas party and oh brother they were going at it! She didnt get reprimanded, she didnt get kicked out... but she is a woman so its different.

BRUWIN
09-17-2009, 03:25 PM
I know this suggestion is a little late (purposely)....maybe you can do a message recall?

Measure Man
09-17-2009, 03:25 PM
You know if he was a she this whole thing would be moot! We had a female Capt get caught with a coworkers wife in their car during our christmas party and oh brother they were going at it! She didnt get reprimanded, she didnt get kicked out... but she is a woman so its different.

That's so hot.

ramrod
09-17-2009, 03:25 PM
I don't get it. You say you wanted to finish out your 20 years but then you email your entire chain of command who you really are. I don't think you realize what you did. Your commander will be forced to go higher and because it sounds like you just want to get out....they might hammer you differently than others.

Gunner007
09-17-2009, 03:29 PM
That's so hot.

The guys wife was pretty good looking but the Capt isnt what i would call attractive. But the act itself... yeah thats hot! LOL

When i was in MX we had a super hot avionics chick come in the unit. Her boyfriend would come in once in a while to bring her lunch/dinner etc... You know the type, crew cut, husky, wore flannel shirts, dickies boots, and jeans sometimes a ball cap.

Well for months we thought this guy was a guy. Turns out it was a really masculine GIRL! ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww a super hot chick and that? Totally ruined the fantasy LOL why wasnt it another super hot chick?

Seriously though, she was still in the unit when i PCS'd out maybe a year later. I dont know if they ever booted her or not but for about a year she was there being gay. Again, she was a chick so thats different.

imported_Seasons
09-17-2009, 03:31 PM
Yours was in another duplicate thread...

Whoops! I feel stupid now :D

ConfusedAirman
09-17-2009, 03:43 PM
Not really, actually I want to join the reserves and finish out my 20 years with them.

Highly doubtful. Even an honorable discharge comes with coding that identifies if you can or cannot reenter the military. If you are coded as not able to reenter, it won't give the reason why, but it stops a recruiter dead in their tracks.

4Runner
09-17-2009, 03:44 PM
Think you painted yourself into a corner. More than likely you will face separation, depending on your TIS, you may have jeopardized your GI Bill.

dan5522
09-17-2009, 03:47 PM
your 214 has a RE/SPD code on it and as a recruiter, if you are prior service it is required that we see it to even start the paperwork. We have a book with all the codes in it and once we see that one you will be tactifully dismissed. Done deal no waiver authorized.

bb stacker
09-17-2009, 03:52 PM
Maybe he can say he went to some religious retraining camp and got reprogrammed and isnt gay anymore and should be allowed to enlist in the reserves?

You know if he was a she this whole thing would be moot! We had a female Capt get caught with a coworkers wife in their car during our christmas party and oh brother they were going at it! She didnt get reprimanded, she didnt get kicked out... but she is a woman so its different.

why am i never so lucky to see things like this.

imported_oih82w8
09-17-2009, 04:02 PM
....they might hammer you differently than others.

that is soooo wrong!

imported_oih82w8
09-17-2009, 04:05 PM
When i was in MX we had a super hot avionics chick come in the unit. Her boyfriend would come in once in a while to bring her lunch/dinner etc... You know the type, crew cut, husky, wore flannel shirts, dickies boots, and jeans sometimes a ball cap.

Well for months we thought this guy was a guy. Turns out it was a really masculine GIRL! ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww a super hot chick and that? Totally ruined the fantasy LOL why wasnt it another super hot chick?



How did this {beast} get on the base to visit the avionics chick?

Variable Wind
09-17-2009, 04:08 PM
I don't flaunt my heterosexuality...but everyone in my office knows I'm married and carrying on a heterosexual lifestyle.

You are a liar...at least on here. ;)

bb stacker
09-17-2009, 04:41 PM
tom cruise come out of the closet...

technomage1
09-17-2009, 04:47 PM
Until someone says that they are gay you really don't know. We have a guy on base whom I would have sworn in court was gay. He had the lisp, he had the mannerisms, the high voice, the old "gaydar" was going off like crazy. Now, I don't care so it wasn't a big deal to me, just filed away in my brain.

Lo and behold he mentions his wife one day. "Wife?" I think to myself. "What, is that code for something?". So the next week I see him, his wife, and their baby in the food court - and looking at the two of them, these people are in love in a big way.

So it just goes to show that even if you think that you may know something, you may not.

TWC760
09-17-2009, 04:47 PM
....they might hammer you differently than others.

Wow, I didn't know my whole chain of command is gay.

Seriously though, the commander called me into his office earlier today with the first shirt and some other sargeant. He asked me if I had sent the email and I said yes. He asked me if it was true and if my MySpace account stating that I am gay is true, I said yes again. He could not have asked in a more vague way. He said: "OK, that's all I needed to know, now go run that AF Marathon." WTF? Does this mean he will just ignore this? I'm not counting on that believe me, but wouldn't he tell me if he was going to try and get me discharged??

technomage1
09-17-2009, 04:50 PM
Wow, I didn't know my whole chain of command is gay.

Seriously though, the commander called me into his office earlier today with the first shirt and some other sargeant. He asked me if I had sent the email and I said yes. He asked me if it was true and if my MySpace account stating that I am gay is true, I said yes again. He could not have asked in a more vague way. He said: "OK, that's all I needed to know, now go run that AF Marathon." WTF? Does this mean he will just ignore this? I'm not counting on that believe me, but wouldn't he tell me if he was going to try and get me discharged??

I don't think he can ignore it, especially since you sent it out to everyone. More than likely, he's sending you back to work while contacting legal to get advice on what to do next. He just needed to confirm with you that you sent the email, etc, in front of witnesses. Not trying to scare you, but I'd definately be contacting ADC soon if you haven't already.

TWC760
09-17-2009, 05:04 PM
I don't think he can ignore it, especially since you sent it out to everyone. More than likely, he's sending you back to work while contacting legal to get advice on what to do next. He just needed to confirm with you that you sent the email, etc, in front of witnesses. Not trying to scare you, but I'd definately be contacting ADC soon if you haven't already.

Roger, thanks for the advice guys.

imported_chipotleboy
09-17-2009, 05:17 PM
TWC,

Like some of the others said, the way you handled it was probably not the best. Time to not only call the ADC, but also the SLDN -- but be careful they don't use to as a "poster child" in a way that doesn't serve your interest.

Personally, I wish you could serve openly. I used to think otherwise, until our Wing CGOY separated from the AF, and later had a child in-vitro with her "lifetime companion". That was an eye-opener that DADT was probably a bad policy.

And for the Leviticus crowd ... how many of you keep kosher?

Best of luck.

imported_49erfan
09-17-2009, 05:22 PM
So I sent an email to almost everyone in my chain of command(including my commander) that I am a homosexual. Does this mean I will be automatically kicked out? Are they actually going to investigate and see if I'm really gay? Or will they tolerate my gayness because they need me? I'm way past the point of caring who thinks I'm gay or not, and if I do get discharged...oh well, not the end of the world. Oh yea, I'm in the Air Force BTW.

You knew what the policy was regarding DADT, but you enlisted anyway. You chose your course of action, now the Air Force will choose its course of action. Don't be suprised if you're out before halloween. You alone initiated this, so you shouldn't be suprised at the outcome. Dude, you're so gay.

Gunner007
09-17-2009, 06:16 PM
How did this {beast} get on the base to visit the avionics chick?

I have no idea... I am guessing she got visitors passes

imported_AF_MSgt
09-17-2009, 06:32 PM
Seriously though, the commander called me into his office earlier today with the first shirt and some other sargeant. He asked me if I had sent the email and I said yes. He asked me if it was true and if my MySpace account stating that I am gay is true, I said yes again. He could not have asked in a more vague way. He said: "OK, that's all I needed to know, now go run that AF Marathon." WTF? Does this mean he will just ignore this? I'm not counting on that believe me, but wouldn't he tell me if he was going to try and get me discharged??

Here are some facts that will help you understand your situation better:

1) Coming out and proclaiming that you are a homosexual is in of itself, not a punishable offense, nor can you be discharged solely for this statement.
2) To be discharged, there must be reason to believe that you have the propensity to commit a homosexual act.
3) Once there is reasonable belief that you could commit a homosexual act, a discharge package can and will be initiated.
4) As long as you have not committed an indecent act (or admitted to one), and your period of service has been honorable, then you will be offered a honorable discharge by your Commander. This will take a week or two, depending on how busy your Legal Office is.
5) If you have been in longer than 6 months, you are entitled to a board hearing. If you are being offered an honorable discharge, there really is no reason for you to go to a board, but you need to explore this option carefully with your ADC.
6) If you accept your Commander's offer of an honorable discharge, then your package will go to your Wing CC for review and then to your Numbered AF Commander for review.
7) Once the Numbered AF approves the package, you will usually be discharged within 3-7 days, so start getting ready now (assuming that you accept the honorable discharge).

Now, let's say that you've committed an indecent act, or have done something illegal, then you could face punishment and a discharge that's not honorable. Your best bet, if you haven't done so already, is to call your ADC immediately and make an appointment. When you call, give them a synopsis of your situation and they will schedule you for a priority appointment.

Hope this helps...

bb stacker
09-17-2009, 06:35 PM
im kinda curious what the email said.

TWC760
09-17-2009, 06:40 PM
im kinda curious what the email said.

To Whom It May Concern,

Integrity is a core value in the Air Force. The requirement under “Don’t ask, Don’t tell” that gay service members live in the closet, lying and hiding their sexual orientation for peers, superiors and subordinates, directly conflicts the basic values of the Air Force.

I realize that in order to live up to this value I need to be honest also about my sexual orientation, and can no longer hide it.

I’m writing to inform you that I am a gay man.

I do not want to face discrimination if I choose to act on my sexual orientation.

I feel that I can no longer adequately serve and be in the closet. I have to choose between being in the military and not being in the closet, and I choose not to be in the closet.

The reason I am making my orientation known now is because I’d rather this information be disclosed by me than someone else.

I also understand that under the so-called, “Don’t Ask. Don’t Tell. Don’t Pursue. Don’t Harass,” military regulations, directives, and policies, I am not to be asked questions about sexual behavior.

Gays should be free to serve openly, as they do in 26 other countries, including Britain, France, Australia and Israel. It is ridiculous that someone like Lt. Col. Victor Fehrenbach, a decorated pilot with the 389th Fighter Squadron, is being kicked out under this outdated policy.

I appreciate your prompt attention to this sensitive matter.

Sincerely,
TWC

P.S. Oh Gawd I want your hot body, shake it baby ya!

P.S.S. I'm gay

Gunner7
09-17-2009, 06:43 PM
im kinda curious what the email said.

I think it went something like this:

Sir,
I would like to let you know of my lifelong desire to become a member of Tops in Blue....

Variable Wind
09-17-2009, 06:46 PM
Sir,
I moonlight as a decorator on HGTV.

SailorDave
09-17-2009, 07:34 PM
Dear Sir (and I mean that literally),
My name is SrA Ty Pennington....

Michaep
09-17-2009, 07:38 PM
So I sent an email to almost everyone in my chain of command(including my commander) that I am a homosexual. Does this mean I will be automatically kicked out? Are they actually going to investigate and see if I'm really gay? Or will they tolerate my gayness because they need me? I'm way past the point of caring who thinks I'm gay or not, and if I do get discharged...oh well, not the end of the world. Oh yea, I'm in the Air Force BTW.

Way to self-incriminate there buddy

You already know whats going to happen by sending that email

Did you expect them to host you a celebration coming out party? It's Dont ask, DONT TELL

SailorDave
09-17-2009, 07:45 PM
Way to self-incriminate there buddy

You already know whats going to happen by sending that email

Did you expect them to host you a celebration coming out party? It's Dont ask, DONT TELL

Perhaps someone in his Chain of Command is gay and he might get a date !

bb stacker
09-17-2009, 07:45 PM
wouldnt it be really funny if the commander was gay and started hitting on him. lol

i called you into my office to see if you sent this email

yes sir i did

well come sit on my lap and tell me all about it you big silly goose

Variable Wind
09-17-2009, 07:47 PM
wouldnt it be really funny if the commander was gay and started hitting on him. lol

i called you into my office to see if you sent this email

yes sir i did

well come sit on my lap and tell me all about it you big silly goose

That earned a snarf over here!

chevyman
09-17-2009, 07:50 PM
wouldnt it be really funny if the commander was gay and started hitting on him. lol

i called you into my office to see if you sent this email

yes sir i did

well come sit on my lap and tell me all about it you big silly goose


LOL! That's just wrong, but funny.

Michaep
09-17-2009, 07:52 PM
haha it would be a real quick step promotion

imported_kvnhlstd
09-17-2009, 08:03 PM
What a classic thread...
We have a gay man outing himself to his commander and the Air Force Times at the same time, gutsy call or political statement???
We have a gunner that says he is not threatened by homosexuals, but won't live or use the same shower facilities with them... then in the next sentence/follow thread he talks about how hot it is to see two women go at it... what an insecure Phobe... hiding behind pseudo religon. "I am a Christian" what a croc... did Jesus teach you to judge and hate one of God's creations???
And we have some active duty guys that show they have no problem with the guy, and acually can joke about it... I side with these guys, they show humanity.

chevyman
09-17-2009, 08:09 PM
On a serious note, I don't care if someone is gay. If they can do thier job and do it well it should not matter what thier sexual orientation is.

Variable Wind
09-17-2009, 08:13 PM
What a classic thread...
We have a gay man outing himself to his commander and the Air Force Times at the same time, gutsy call or political statement???
We have a gunner that says he is not threatened by homosexuals, but won't live or use the same shower facilities with them... then in the next sentence/follow thread he talks about how hot it is to see two women go at it... what an insecure Phobe... hiding behind pseudo religon. "I am a Christian" what a croc... did Jesus teach you to judge and hate one of God's creations???
And we have some active duty guys that show they have no problem with the guy, and acually can joke about it... I side with these guys, they show humanity.

Just for clarification's sake...where did Gunner say he hated gay people, or even this man in particular?

TWC760
09-17-2009, 08:13 PM
On a serious note, I don't care if someone is gay. If they can do thier job and do it well it should not matter what thier sexual orientation is.

That's what I think. As long as I don't hit on people. Even the straight guys I work with cross the gay/straight line all the time. But I guess when it comes to actually doing some of the stuff they talk about...

I'm off to run/jog/hobble in the AF marathon, peace out.

Michaep
09-17-2009, 08:15 PM
It comes down to the equivelant of making men and women shower together as in gay men and straight men showing together is a problem

Can an extremely flamboyant person handle getting mud under their fingernails? Can they handle killing someone with a knife as a last resort on a dismounted patrol?

Think of all this, also think of the movie Bruno....."WTF is that Soldier??"


....."Its D&G......Dolce & Gabbana"

hahaha yeah........

imported_kvnhlstd
09-17-2009, 08:18 PM
Just for clarification's sake...where did Gunner say he hated gay people, or even this man in particular?

Never said he hated him, just pointed out the phobic irony that he cannot room, shower, or hang with a gay man but he has no problem with two women together in a sexual situation... he also made mention of his Christianity... I don't think its very christian to be entertained by a couple of bi/lesbain women.

Sounds like insecurity within himself.

bb stacker
09-17-2009, 08:20 PM
wouldnt it be funny if this guy worked p.o.l

imported_kvnhlstd
09-17-2009, 08:22 PM
It comes down to the equivelant of making men and women shower together as in gay men and straight men showing together is a problem

Can an extremely flamboyant person handle getting mud under their fingernails? Can they handle killing someone with a knife as a last resort on a dismounted patrol?

Think of all this, also think of the movie Bruno....."WTF is that Soldier??"


....."Its D&G......Dolce & Gabbana"

hahaha yeah........

Hate to break it to you but you already work with gay peers, I had a friend who I have know for 14 years come out after he retired... he went to pre-Ranger, was on the 44 man team as a squad leader, played softball and flag footbal for the unit. And he aced his PT test every year... oh and he was stepped to Tech. Last, he would stomp you for mouthing off about a sterotypical comment like "Can an extremely flamboyant person handle getting mud under their fingernails? Can they handle killing someone with a knife as a last resort on a dismounted patrol?"

chevyman
09-17-2009, 08:24 PM
That's what I think. As long as I don't hit on people. Even the straight guys I work with cross the gay/straight line all the time. But I guess when it comes to actually doing some of the stuff they talk about...

I'm off to run/jog/hobble in the AF marathon, peace out.

We had a dicussion about gays in the militaty one day at work. One guy said "No gay guy better hit on me or else." MY response was "What makes you think a gay guy would find YOU atractive". He had no response to that. I don't care just keep to yourself.

BRUWIN
09-17-2009, 08:27 PM
I don't think its very christian to be entertained by a couple of bi/lesbain women.


True...Catholic leaders have already determined it is only christian if it were young boys.

Variable Wind
09-17-2009, 08:29 PM
What a classic thread...
We have a gay man outing himself to his commander and the Air Force Times at the same time, gutsy call or political statement???
We have a gunner that says he is not threatened by homosexuals, but won't live or use the same shower facilities with them... then in the next sentence/follow thread he talks about how hot it is to see two women go at it... what an insecure Phobe... hiding behind pseudo religon. "I am a Christian" what a croc... did Jesus teach you to judge and hate one of God's creations???
And we have some active duty guys that show they have no problem with the guy, and acually can joke about it... I side with these guys, they show humanity.


Never said he hated him, just pointed out the phobic irony that he cannot room, shower, or hang with a gay man but he has no problem with two women together in a sexual situation... he also made mention of his Christianity... I don't think its very christian to be entertained by a couple of bi/lesbain women.

Sounds like insecurity within himself.

You did both. You implied that he hated gay people by your question about what Jesus did or did not teach him. And yes, it is a bit of a double standard to approve of lesbians and not gay men, but I doubt that is the case here. I think what he was expressing was an attraction to beautiful women. The psychology behind it is simple. And its not homophobic. Simply disagreeing with homosexual acts does not make one a homophobe, and it does not make one insecure. I cannot speak for Gunner as to what his particular views on this are and why he believes what he does. But he is not a hateful person as far as I have seen.

I particularly do not approve of the practice. But I also have gay friends and I do not judge them. I will always leave the judgement to a higher power as long as no harm is coming to others.

Michaep
09-17-2009, 08:29 PM
Hate to break it to you but you already work with gay peers, I had a friend who I have know for 14 years come out after he retired... he went to pre-Ranger, was on the 44 man team as a squad leader, played softball and flag footbal for the unit. And he aced his PT test every year... oh and he was stepped to Tech. Last, he would stomp you for mouthing off about a sterotypical comment like "Can an extremely flamboyant person handle getting mud under their fingernails? Can they handle killing someone with a knife as a last resort on a dismounted patrol?"

Let a Tech "stomp me" and he'd be step promoted in reversal pretty quickly haha

allow me to clarify....people like your guy above ^ are fine

What worries me is the FLAMBOYANT ones who would join

If they were allowed and they were flamboyant....imagine the repercussions of that in all aspects

You overhear guys now telling stories of one night stands with chicks.....then Mister Super Pink Panties comes waltzing in and wants to share "girl talk" about HIS one night stand with a big butch MAN

UGH....:(

bb stacker
09-17-2009, 08:31 PM
Let a Tech "stomp me" and he'd be step promoted in reversal pretty quickly haha

allow me to clarify....people like your guy above ^ are fine

What worries me is the FLAMBOYANT ones who would join

If they were allowed and they were flamboyant....imagine the repercussions of that in all aspects
You overhear guys now telling stories of one night stands with chicks.....then Mister Super Pink Panties comes waltzing in and wants to share "girl talk" about HIS one night stand with a big butch MAN

UGH....:(

overnight our uniforms would be changed and be stylish and functional!

Shaken1976
09-17-2009, 08:36 PM
We once put a Gay Pride rainbow ribbon on the side of this guys truck. It was there for about a month before he noticed it. His reaction was freakin funny as hell as he was the biggest homophobe I have ever met. Our shirt had seen it a week or so earlier and laughed his ass off.


Now on to the point.... I thought in order to be kicked out under DADT you had to be caught red handed so to speak. Just because someone says your gay or outs you to the commander doesn't matter. As long as there is no photographic evidence and you don't tell anyone you would be good to go. Am I wrong in that one?

Michaep
09-17-2009, 08:36 PM
....PT shorts would be reduced in size even more....by half this time

bb stacker
09-17-2009, 08:40 PM
and be made out of leather.

imported_KnuckleDragger
09-17-2009, 09:18 PM
Thanks for wasting AF time and money. You knew what the policy was when you enlisted. Then you sent that immature email through your chain. Now you want the AF to thank you for your service and send you on your way right in to a guard/reserve unit.

Maybe as a civilian you will think before you act.

imported_Gigglendorf
09-17-2009, 09:36 PM
Now on to the point.... I thought in order to be kicked out under DADT you had to be caught red handed so to speak. Just because someone says your gay or outs you to the commander doesn't matter. As long as there is no photographic evidence and you don't tell anyone you would be good to go. Am I wrong in that one?

Nope.

From AFI 36-3208:
5.36. Basis for Discharge:

5.36.2. A member shall be separated under this section if one or more of the following approved findings
is made:

5.36.2.2. The member has made a statement that he or she is a homosexual or bisexual, or words
to that effect, unless there is a further approved finding that the member has demonstrated that he
or she is not a person who engages in, attempts to engage in, has a propensity to engage in, or
intends to engage in homosexual acts. A statement by a service member that he or she is a homosexual
or bisexual, or words to that effect, creates a rebuttable presumption that the service member
engages in, attempts to engage in, has a propensity to engage in, or intends to engage in
homosexual acts. The service member shall be advised of this presumption and given the opportunity
to rebut the presumption by presenting evidence demonstrating that he or she does not engage
in, attempt to engage in, have a propensity to engage in, or intend to engage in homosexual acts. Propensity to engage in homosexual acts means more than an abstract preference or desire to
engage in homosexual acts; it indicates a likelihood that a person engages in or will engage in
homosexual acts. In determining whether a member has successfully rebutted the presumption that
he or she engages in, attempts to engage in, or has a propensity or intent to engage in homosexual
acts, some or all of the following may be considered: NOTE: This list is not exhaustive; any other
relevant evidence may also be considered:
5.36.2.2.1. Whether the member has engaged in homosexual acts.
5.36.2.2.2. The member's credibility.
5.36.2.2.3. Testimony from others about the member's past conduct, character, and credibility.
5.36.2.2.4. The nature and circumstances of the member's statement.
5.36.2.2.5. Any other evidence relevant to whether the member is likely to engage in homosexual
acts.

Now, as to characterization fo service, how this process is initiated is really not relevant. Same AFI:
5.37. Types of Separation. discharge under this section for homosexual conduct may be:

5.37.2. Characterized as honorable or general according to Chapter 1, Section 1B, if:
5.37.2.1. The airman is not in entry level status; and
5.37.2.2. Characterization as under other than honorable conditions is not warranted according to
paragraph 5.37.3.

5.37.3. Characterized as under other than honorable conditions only if it is found that during the current
term of service the airman attempted, solicited, or committed a homosexual act:
5.37.3.1. By using force, coercion, or intimidation;
5.37.3.2. With a person under 16 years of age;
5.37.3.3. With a subordinate in circumstances that violate customary military superior-subordinate
relationships;
5.37.3.4. Openly in public view;
5.37.3.5. For compensation;
5.37.3.6. Aboard a military vessel or aircraft; or
5.37.3.7. In another location subject to military control under aggravating circumstances noted in
the finding that have an adverse impact on discipline, good order, or morale comparable to the
impact of such activity aboard a vessel or an aircraft.

Silver Fox
09-17-2009, 11:57 PM
Why did you feel the need to announce it? Couldn't you just live the way you wanted and as openly as you wanted while still following the basic concept of don't ask/don't tell? To me, this isn't living a lie anymore than heterosexuals not climbing on their commander's desk announcing their heterosexuality. I realize that there are nuances to the basic "don't" rule where it seems official action can start simply if a third party accuses you. If that were to occur, then it becomes a "don't lie" situation, wait to see what happens, and fight if you want.

But it seems that your purpose was simply to make a statement. As such, I hope you are discharged immediately, regardless of whether they need you. I also hope that the day after your discharge is effective, the policy changes to allow gays but your discharge stands because you broke the rules that existed at the time of your actions. The AF doesn't need grandstanders.

You announce your heterosexuality at every squadron function, consciously or not. You're allowed to bring your spouse and family to those functions to support you, homosexuals don't have that choice.


NOW, tell me there's no difference....

Michaep
09-17-2009, 11:59 PM
You announce your heterosexuality at every squadron function, consciously or not. You're allowed to bring your spouse and family to those functions to support you, homosexuals don't have that choice.


NOW, tell me there's no difference....

haha youre allowed to bring a "male friend"

Silver Fox
09-18-2009, 12:03 AM
haha youre allowed to bring a "male friend"

Yes, so then you're forced to sit in public and not share your success. They can't hug and kiss you during your promotion, can't hug and kiss you when you return from deployment. You have to live a lie, with your 'male' friend, while every heterosexual couple can openly announce their heterosexuality with every kiss, embrace and hand holding.

It's opression, and it's a disgusting stain on the freedoms of this country. Freedoms these individuals are prepared to die to defend but don't even have for themselves.

Anyone that thinks that right, is a disgusting excuse for a human being in my not very humble opinion, and I don't care if you think god is on your side or not. God didn't write the constitution. Nor does he defend America. Our biggest enemies are fighting with god on their side, I don't really give a shit what he thinks of homosexuals.

Michaep
09-18-2009, 12:20 AM
there should be no Public Displays of Affection....regardless, in uniform

BigT2002
09-18-2009, 12:23 AM
there should be no Public Displays of Affection....regardless, in uniform

Exactly. From what I remember (and it may just be an unwritten rule) you are not supposed to engage in hand holding, prolonged kissing, or anything else that could be deemed inappropriate in public while in uniform.

dan5522
09-18-2009, 05:35 AM
If done correctly you both should be out of uniform! lol

Silver Fox
09-18-2009, 06:54 AM
there should be no Public Displays of Affection....regardless, in uniform

I STRONGLY disagree for several reasons.

1) Robs troops of their humanity while in uniform.
2) Degrades public opinion of troops by only feeding the stereotype we are mindless robots.
3) It's practically unenforceable, unless you really expect a couple that hasn't seen eachother in 15 months when one of them gets back from deployment to NOT hug eachother as soon as they see eachother just because "Oops I'm in uniform." Cruel and unreasonable. We're still human beings. Military or not. How can you ask a soldier to show compassion to an enemy when you show him none as his leader?

ZombiesMakeMeHappy
09-18-2009, 12:07 PM
I can’t stand when people use "well i cant shower with females et"c..; you can’t shower etc with women because you have diff body parts, would you want to run into your daughter in the shower? Taking a shit right next to her? It's no secret RAPE is a big issue to deployed females would you wish increased chances on your daughter or wife to be raped just because of this? So saying gays can’t be in the military until you can do the same things with females is lame excuse for a homophobic. The chance of a straight male raping you is more likely than a gay man. Not so sure with you but, I have to do things in the military that make me uncomfortable all the time but I do it anyways and stfu . If they do get rid of the policy I see no need to live any diff than we already do.

Shaken1976
09-18-2009, 12:11 PM
I STRONGLY disagree for several reasons.

1) Robs troops of their humanity while in uniform.
2) Degrades public opinion of troops by only feeding the stereotype we are mindless robots.
3) It's practically unenforceable, unless you really expect a couple that hasn't seen eachother in 15 months when one of them gets back from deployment to NOT hug eachother as soon as they see eachother just because "Oops I'm in uniform." Cruel and unreasonable. We're still human beings. Military or not. How can you ask a soldier to show compassion to an enemy when you show him none as his leader?

I agree to an extent. Coming home from deployment Yes give your spouse a hug and kiss. However when just in public in uniform say for lunch of something I don't think you should have your tongue down someone elses throat or hand down their pants. I think it completely depends on the situation. If I am somewhere to meet some returnees I am not going to say anything to someone kissing their spouse. If I am walking through the mall food court and I see a couple looking like they need a room and both are in uniform then I would probably say something. My husband and I often go to lunch together and we can make it through lunch without being all over each other. Once we get back to the car we might share a quick kiss before getting out of the car but we sure aren't going to steam up the windows.

Variable Wind
09-18-2009, 12:36 PM
I can’t stand when people use "well i cant shower with females et"c..; you can’t shower etc with women because you have diff body parts, would you want to run into your daughter in the shower? Taking a shit right next to her? It's no secret RAPE is a big issue to deployed females would you wish increased chances on your daughter or wife to be raped just because of this? So saying gays can’t be in the military until you can do the same things with females is lame excuse for a homophobic. The chance of a straight male raping you is more likely than a gay man. Not so sure with you but, I have to do things in the military that make me uncomfortable all the time but I do it anyways and stfu . If they do get rid of the policy I see no need to live any diff than we already do.

If its not going to be an issue of rape with gay men showering with other men (and I dont think it will be an issue) then how is it going to be an issue with straight men showering with women.

Dont bring up such a ridiculous assumption. No wonder you feel uncomfortable, you cant bring up an intelligent point in this debate.

bb stacker
09-18-2009, 12:41 PM
I agree to an extent. Coming home from deployment Yes give your spouse a hug and kiss. However when just in public in uniform say for lunch of something I don't think you should have your tongue down someone elses throat or hand down their pants. I think it completely depends on the situation. If I am somewhere to meet some returnees I am not going to say anything to someone kissing their spouse. If I am walking through the mall food court and I see a couple looking like they need a room and both are in uniform then I would probably say something. My husband and I often go to lunch together and we can make it through lunch without being all over each other. Once we get back to the car we might share a quick kiss before getting out of the car but we sure aren't going to steam up the windows.

thats because americans are prudes.

ZombiesMakeMeHappy
09-18-2009, 12:51 PM
If its not going to be an issue of rape with gay men showering with other men (and I dont think it will be an issue) then how is it going to be an issue with straight men showering with women.

Dont bring up such a ridiculous assumption. No wonder you feel uncomfortable, you cant bring up an intelligent point in this debate.

Alright then,


Women in military "more likely to be raped by a fellow soldier than killed by enemy fire."
Rep. Jane Harman (D-CA) has an op-ed in the LA Times where she reveals that "women serving in the U.S. military are more likely to be raped by a fellow soldier than killed by enemy fire in Iraq."

My jaw dropped when the doctors told me that 41% of female veterans seen at the clinic say they were victims of sexual assault while in the military, and 29% report being raped during their military service. They spoke of their continued terror, feelings of helplessness and the downward spirals many of their lives have since taken.
Numbers reported by the Department of Defense show a sickening pattern. In 2006, 2,947 sexual assaults were reported -- 73% more than in 2004.


Harman also writes that there's an "unwillingness to prosecute rapists in the ranks." Only 181 out of 2,212 people investigated for sexual assault in 2007 were referred to courts-martial (prosecution); many others were dealt with by "nonpunitive administrative action" or "nonjudicial punishment," the equivalent to a slap on the wrist. Just horrifying.

Variable Wind
09-18-2009, 01:05 PM
Women in military "more likely to be raped by a fellow soldier than killed by enemy fire."
Rep. Jane Harman (D-CA) has an op-ed in the LA Times where she reveals that "women serving in the U.S. military are more likely to be raped by a fellow soldier than killed by enemy fire in Iraq."

OMG REALLY?!?! Oh well considering how many women there are in the military, added to the fact how few of them see combat...this is SOOOO suprizing :rolleyes:


My jaw dropped when the doctors told me that 41% of female veterans seen at the clinic say they were victims of sexual assault while in the military, and 29% report being raped during their military service. They spoke of their continued terror, feelings of helplessness and the downward spirals many of their lives have since taken.
Ever see the studies on the accuracies of rape reporting? Its a sick thing to rape or assault someone, an issue clouded by the equally sick act of making it up.


Numbers reported by the Department of Defense show a sickening pattern. In 2006, 2,947 sexual assaults were reported -- 73% more than in 2004.
I notice throughout this post that you do not make any mention of men who are sexually assaulted. Kudos for not addressing that small, tiny little aspect of your arguement.


Harman also writes that there's an "unwillingness to prosecute rapists in the ranks." Only 181 out of 2,212 people investigated for sexual assault in 2007 were referred to courts-martial (prosecution); many others were dealt with by "nonpunitive administrative action" or "nonjudicial punishment," the equivalent to a slap on the wrist. Just horrifying.
That OR there was just no evidence in the other cases to warrant prosecution. Excuse me if I read between the lines.

Gunner007
09-18-2009, 03:09 PM
What a classic thread...
We have a gay man outing himself to his commander and the Air Force Times at the same time, gutsy call or political statement???
We have a gunner that says he is not threatened by homosexuals, but won't live or use the same shower facilities with them... then in the next sentence/follow thread he talks about how hot it is to see two women go at it... what an insecure Phobe... hiding behind pseudo religon. "I am a Christian" what a croc... did Jesus teach you to judge and hate one of God's creations???
And we have some active duty guys that show they have no problem with the guy, and acually can joke about it... I side with these guys, they show humanity.

First off slick, i am "threatened" by no one! I believe i very clearly stated i would be and am in fact polite & respectful to all people whether i agree with their choice of lifestyle or not. I dont hate gay people but the Bible also says not to consort with sinners, but hey, just read the parts of it you like right. I am not "scared" of gay people or anything else for that matter so there isnt a "phobia" involved. I dont agree with gays, child molesters, people who rob banks, or those who defraud little ole ladies out of their money, so i dont consort with them. It doesnt mean i hate them it means i dont agree with them and choose to interact with people i do agree with. Phobia has nothing to do with it. I am not perfect in any way, but my chances of trying to do the right thing go up when i dont consort with the wrong people.

The comment about the 2 chicks was made in jest, perhaps i chose a poor moment to try and inject some twisted humor given the topic, I'll buy that. Just because women dont want to share their shower with men, does it mean they hate men? I have found the most reserved women, the ones who respect their bodies and therefore their privacy the most are typically the ones who have the most self respect for themselves. Not sure how you equate me not wanting to shower with someone of a different sexual persuasion as meaning i hate them. Have you not heard of privacy standards and personal space? Do you strip your wife/girlfriend naked at the pool and parade her around in front of leering men? Then why would you expect her to deploy and shower in front of strange men? Phobia has nothing to do with and hatred has nothing to do with it. Get over yourself.

Gunner007
09-18-2009, 03:16 PM
Never said he hated him, just pointed out the phobic irony that he cannot room, shower, or hang with a gay man but he has no problem with two women together in a sexual situation... he also made mention of his Christianity... I don't think its very christian to be entertained by a couple of bi/lesbain women.

Sounds like insecurity within himself.

My own take on women in that situation is about askew. Do i adore and admire every inch of the female anatomy? Yes, i LOVE every square inch of the female body, i find the female body very erotic and i enjoy looking at it. If watching one woman caress herself is sexy watching 2 women caress each other is even better. HOWEVER, i do NOT like watching women in actual intercourse with equipment designed to replace a man. Theres nothing erotic about knowing you have no place or purpose, especially when it involved bringing a woman pleasure which should be a mans motivation!

Seeing 2 women playfully caress or tickle each other, maybe a quick kiss, isnt the same as watching some weird dyke melodrama where men arent wanted or needed. I dont know if thats insecurity, i dont see how it could be? I love to pleasure a woman and if i am not needed to do that, why be involved? I would think insecurity would mean i am afraid i am incapable of providing that pleasure, which i dont see as a problem for me.

Gunner007
09-18-2009, 03:35 PM
I can’t stand when people use "well i cant shower with females et"c..; you can’t shower etc with women because you have diff body parts, would you want to run into your daughter in the shower? Taking a shit right next to her? It's no secret RAPE is a big issue to deployed females would you wish increased chances on your daughter or wife to be raped just because of this? So saying gays can’t be in the military until you can do the same things with females is lame excuse for a homophobic. The chance of a straight male raping you is more likely than a gay man. Not so sure with you but, I have to do things in the military that make me uncomfortable all the time but I do it anyways and stfu . If they do get rid of the policy I see no need to live any diff than we already do.

Europe is FULL of co-ed facilities. You walk in to a bathroom and its a large room with little rooms and no one can see what anyone else is doing next to them. If you make the bathrooms like that i dont think anyone would care who is shitting next to who. It wouldnt matter, male, female, gay, or straight. The latrines are the easy part.

Oh yeah play the rape card thats always a convenient one. Okay so lets ask this then. Would you want your wife, sister, girlfriend, pick a female you love using a changing room at Macy's that had a clear glass wall so everyone walking down the street could watch them? Men, women, gays, straight, everyone gets to see her naked? Now the room is secure, the people are outside, so rape isnt going to happen is it? The simple fact is people have issues letting just anyone view their body. When that person is someone who is of a sexual orientation that they may judge the other persons looks it can cause people to feel uncomfortable. Women are catty! They are always judging each other, and i think they are MUCH harsher towards other women than men will ever be. If i dont find a woman attractive i simply dont look at her, if a woman finds another woman unattractive they belittle and make snarky remarks about her thighs or tummy etc. If anything women should feel much more insecure showering with other women but they dont.

Likewise there are plenty of men who would never be able to shower with women other than their wives/girlfriends. For some men being nude in front of women would be tantamount to torture. While i may not be the buffest most in shape guy i can look around and know there are plenty of guys in worse shape than me so i dont feel insecure about being at the pool or naked around women. As for doing things that make me uncomfortable, piss testing is it! For me personally, i would rather have a female observer for my piss test than a guy. I am not "afraid" of gay people, i just dont like the idea of a guy standing next to me looking at my junk while i relieve myself in a cup. I would be much more comfortable if i could have a female observer, thats just me though.

People are more worried now days than ever before about their looks. I wouldnt be worried a gay guy in the shower was gonna touch me or some stupid crap but i consider myself to be a decent looking guy and yeah i would wonder if he was checking out my ass. Maybe i am conceited a little, but anytime you have people of different sexual persuasions in view of each other there is going to be tension, you cant prevent it unless you have completely isolated latrines and showers so no one ever sees anyone else.

Gunner007
09-18-2009, 03:42 PM
Alright then,


Women in military "more likely to be raped by a fellow soldier than killed by enemy fire."
Rep. Jane Harman (D-CA) has an op-ed in the LA Times where she reveals that "women serving in the U.S. military are more likely to be raped by a fellow soldier than killed by enemy fire in Iraq."

My jaw dropped when the doctors told me that 41% of female veterans seen at the clinic say they were victims of sexual assault while in the military, and 29% report being raped during their military service. They spoke of their continued terror, feelings of helplessness and the downward spirals many of their lives have since taken.
Numbers reported by the Department of Defense show a sickening pattern. In 2006, 2,947 sexual assaults were reported -- 73% more than in 2004.


Harman also writes that there's an "unwillingness to prosecute rapists in the ranks." Only 181 out of 2,212 people investigated for sexual assault in 2007 were referred to courts-martial (prosecution); many others were dealt with by "nonpunitive administrative action" or "nonjudicial punishment," the equivalent to a slap on the wrist. Just horrifying.

A quick point of note. Statistics can be cooked to support any argument be careful when using them. For instance are more rapes reported in 2006 than in 2004? Of course because there is a different reporting procedure and model used. Will there be more rapes reported in 2008 than in 2006? Definitely because they just changed reporting procedures again. Because more rapes are reported doesnt mean rapes have sky rocketed. Women can now report a rape without filing an official police report, this is to allow them to get medical treatment without fearing reprisal, so more rapes are reported because of that change. I am sure the numbers increased slightly but i doubt they will have jumped 20 or 30% between the 2006 and when the 2008 report is released.

I am not saying it isnt an increase and in no way am i condoning what was done, just realize that many times there are reasons for huge fluxes in statistics. The fact a democrat from California wrote the article would have sent up red flags with me from the get go.

imported_kvnhlstd
09-18-2009, 05:25 PM
First off slick, i am "threatened" by no one! I believe i very clearly stated i would be and am in fact polite & respectful to all people whether i agree with their choice of lifestyle or not. I dont hate gay people but the Bible also says not to consort with sinners, but hey, just read the parts of it you like right. I am not "scared" of gay people or anything else for that matter so there isnt a "phobia" involved. I dont agree with gays, child molesters, people who rob banks, or those who defraud little ole ladies out of their money, so i dont consort with them. It doesnt mean i hate them it means i dont agree with them and choose to interact with people i do agree with. Phobia has nothing to do with it. I am not perfect in any way, but my chances of trying to do the right thing go up when i dont consort with the wrong people.

The comment about the 2 chicks was made in jest, perhaps i chose a poor moment to try and inject some twisted humor given the topic, I'll buy that. Just because women dont want to share their shower with men, does it mean they hate men? I have found the most reserved women, the ones who respect their bodies and therefore their privacy the most are typically the ones who have the most self respect for themselves. Not sure how you equate me not wanting to shower with someone of a different sexual persuasion as meaning i hate them. Have you not heard of privacy standards and personal space? Do you strip your wife/girlfriend naked at the pool and parade her around in front of leering men? Then why would you expect her to deploy and shower in front of strange men? Phobia has nothing to do with and hatred has nothing to do with it. Get over yourself.

So I guess you don't have many friends... I spent over 20 years in the military and outside of chaplains I would say most of us commit some kind of sin daily. Organizied religon is a croc and hiding behind it is even worse, stand up for your own belief sysytem instead of drinking the holy kool aid. Gays and lesbians deserve the same equality as all of us. Period.

MACHINE666
09-18-2009, 05:47 PM
Heh. Come to work in a new make-over "Bruno" style.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01428/bruno-army_1428715c.jpg

And if you do end up getting a Dishonorable Discharge, get seen for it at the clinic right away!

:D :D :D :D :D

Measure Man
09-18-2009, 05:48 PM
So I guess you don't have many friends... I spent over 20 years in the military and outside of chaplains I would say most of us commit some kind of sin daily. Organizied religon is a croc and hiding behind it is even worse, stand up for your own belief sysytem instead of drinking the holy kool aid. Gays and lesbians deserve the same equality as all of us. Period.

I think you'd even be hard-pressed to find a chaplain that claims to not be a sinner.

Gunner007
09-18-2009, 06:01 PM
So I guess you don't have many friends... I spent over 20 years in the military and outside of chaplains I would say most of us commit some kind of sin daily. Organizied religon is a croc and hiding behind it is even worse, stand up for your own belief sysytem instead of drinking the holy kool aid. Gays and lesbians deserve the same equality as all of us. Period.

Its not about never sinning its about trying not to sin. That whole quip about ye who is without sin throw the first stone... All Christians sin, they arent perfect and shouldnt claim to be. I am not a fan of organized religion, note that i said i was CHristian, not a baptist or catholic, etc... As for people deserving equality, my problem with people openly being gay is i dont think elementary school age children need to be exposed to their proclivity. Childhood is confusing enough without wondering why two guys are swapping spit in the mall food court. I deeply believe small children should be shielded from the homosexual lifestyle just as i believe they should be shielded from drugs, alcohol, sex, and violence. By middle school children are old enough to handle tactful education about those topics. When i see places like California forcing elementary aged children to read gay books and take gay education classes i want to vomit! Children that young dont need that type of information. I would have no problems opening every door in America wide to the gay population if i honestly believed they could conduct themselves with tact and accept that they are in fact a minority and that the rest of America, while they dont agree with their lifestyle and dont want it around very young children, they are willing to accept them so long as they conduct themselves with tact when in places that very young children are present. If they want to swap spit in a bar or nightclub, thats their business, but the mall food court is a bit much. So seeing how California schools are now being forceful about this it shows their true colors. That they want to FORCE their lifestyle on me and my children regardless of our views. Why is it your okay with violating my freedom of religion but you are not okay with someone violating a gays supposed equality rights?

MACHINE666
09-18-2009, 06:18 PM
Let a Tech "stomp me" and he'd be step promoted in reversal pretty quickly haha

allow me to clarify....people like your guy above ^ are fine

What worries me is the FLAMBOYANT ones who would join

If they were allowed and they were flamboyant....imagine the repercussions of that in all aspects

You overhear guys now telling stories of one night stands with chicks.....then Mister Super Pink Panties comes waltzing in and wants to share "girl talk" about HIS one night stand with a big butch MAN

UGH....:(

Especially if their boyfriends are the 'bears' out there too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6zDygujgj4

Heh. I'd love to see the looks on peoples faces if Obama allows it to where gay people can openly serve.

:D :D :D :D :D :D

hawk71049
09-18-2009, 06:55 PM
.

. I dont agree with gays, child molesters, people who rob banks, or those who defraud little ole ladies out of their money, so i dont consort with them.


I deeply believe small children should be shielded from the homosexual lifestyle just as i believe they should be shielded from drugs, alcohol, sex, and violence

Gunner, not at all trying to start a pissing contest with you; I follow your post and agree with you on most of your points. I find it interesting the other groups you use to relate to Gays is all.:confused:


.

Gunner007
09-18-2009, 07:56 PM
.




Gunner, not at all trying to start a pissing contest with you; I follow your post and agree with you on most of your points. I find it interesting the other groups you use to relate to Gays is all.:confused:


.

Its not problem, i dont get pissed off that easy. My point is groups or people who do things wrong based on my faith. Not intentionally trying to categorize or say one type of person is worse or equal on that list to the others, i was just making a generalization about the type of people i wouldnt want to BBQ & have a beer with.

ZombiesMakeMeHappy
09-18-2009, 08:25 PM
Oh dear, Seems i pissed off a bunch of bible beating sexist assholes. Weekends here going to the first gay club i see and tell them they are ALL GOING TO HELL.

Measure Man
09-18-2009, 08:35 PM
Its not problem, i dont get pissed off that easy. My point is groups or people who do things wrong based on my faith. Not intentionally trying to categorize or say one type of person is worse or equal on that list to the others, i was just making a generalization about the type of people i wouldnt want to BBQ & have a beer with.

I know...jesus would never eat with sinners...oh wait...

Seriously, what does your personal faith have to do with who we should or should not allow the privilege to serve in the military? Did we swear and oath to the Bible somewhere that I'm not aware of? Is god and the bible anywhere in the Constitution we've sworn to defend?

You don't have to BBQ and have a beer with anyone...you don't now, and you won't if DADT is lifted.

Trust me, there are several folks serving that I don't care to socialize with off-duty...a lot of them I don't even like to shower with :rolleyes: ...doesn't mean i can't respect what they do on-duty and honor their service.

Oh here is the answer to your shower problem...in the rare instance nowadays were communal showers are ordered...wear a swimsuit.

As far as gays making out in the mall...well, I'm sure you only bring your family to the BX, so that is your concern right? I mean...you don't dare take them to an off-base shopping mall where they might come in contact with a gay couple? Your children are going to be seriously sheltered, man.

hawk71049
09-18-2009, 08:39 PM
Oh dear, Seems i pissed off a bunch of bible beating sexist assholes. Weekends here going to the first gay club i see and tell them they are ALL GOING TO HELL.

Bible reading, well, yes. But, you know, as far as the rest of your comments, well.... seems like you speak with authority.:(


.

imported_kvnhlstd
09-18-2009, 09:44 PM
Childhood is confusing enough without wondering why two guys are swapping spit in the mall food court. I deeply believe small children should be shielded from the homosexual lifestyle just as i believe they should be shielded from drugs, alcohol, sex, and violence. By middle school children are old enough to handle tactful education about those topics. When i see places like California forcing elementary aged children to read gay books and take gay education classes i want to vomit! Children that young dont need that type of information. I would have no problems opening every door in America wide to the gay population if i honestly believed they could conduct themselves with tact and accept that they are in fact a minority and that the rest of America, while they dont agree with their lifestyle and dont want it around very young children, they are willing to accept them so long as they conduct themselves with tact when in places that very young children are present. If they want to swap spit in a bar or nightclub, thats their business, but the mall food court is a bit much. So seeing how California schools are now being forceful about this it shows their true colors.
Reading this statement above is jaw dropping, first you assume that homosexuality is nurture not nature... modern science disagrees, a european scientist has indentified the dna strand that renders the homosexuality trait in humans. Then you say the state of cali is forcing their value system on you... have hetrosexuals been forces their value sysytem on homsexuals for the last 500 years, and still are. I am a happily married heterosexual male, I have gay friends that I love like my own brothers. I learned long ago not to judge people and to see the good in people. I always think back to the race experiment of the 60's, Blue eyes... How would you like it if tomorrow your world flipped and Gunners were stripped of the right to marry, will property without taxation, the ablity to provide healthcare for a loved one, be able to see a loved one in the hospital... I could go on but enough is enough.
I see the future in my college daughter, her and her friends accept everyone of any race, color, gender, or sexual orientation. The next gerneration has it right, we need work.

imported_49erfan
09-18-2009, 10:36 PM
Its not about never sinning its about trying not to sin. That whole quip about ye who is without sin throw the first stone... All Christians sin, they arent perfect and shouldnt claim to be. I am not a fan of organized religion, note that i said i was CHristian, not a baptist or catholic, etc... As for people deserving equality, my problem with people openly being gay is i dont think elementary school age children need to be exposed to their proclivity. Childhood is confusing enough without wondering why two guys are swapping spit in the mall food court. I deeply believe small children should be shielded from the homosexual lifestyle just as i believe they should be shielded from drugs, alcohol, sex, and violence. By middle school children are old enough to handle tactful education about those topics. When i see places like California forcing elementary aged children to read gay books and take gay education classes i want to vomit! Children that young dont need that type of information. I would have no problems opening every door in America wide to the gay population if i honestly believed they could conduct themselves with tact and accept that they are in fact a minority and that the rest of America, while they dont agree with their lifestyle and dont want it around very young children, they are willing to accept them so long as they conduct themselves with tact when in places that very young children are present. If they want to swap spit in a bar or nightclub, thats their business, but the mall food court is a bit much. So seeing how California schools are now being forceful about this it shows their true colors. That they want to FORCE their lifestyle on me and my children regardless of our views. Why is it your okay with violating my freedom of religion but you are not okay with someone violating a gays supposed equality rights?

Bay Area schools have started forcing the gay curriculum on kids. That's the Bay area true colors, not ours. Throwing California in one category is like throwing the East coast into one category. I live 450 miles from LA and 135 from SF. There are not many similarities between NYC and Raleigh NC...right. Well it's the same way here. I live in the Sierra Nevada mountains and believe me, it's a world apart from the Bay area or LA for that matter. The county I live in is more than 90% white and majority conservative, so the gay curriculum won't be forced on us any time soon. I certainly do agree with your overall stance though.

hawk71049
09-18-2009, 10:41 PM
Its not problem, i dont get pissed off that easy. My point is groups or people who do things wrong based on my faith. Not intentionally trying to categorize or say one type of person is worse or equal on that list to the others, i was just making a generalization about the type of people i wouldnt want to BBQ & have a beer with.

Such portrayals or comparisons of homosexual couples are meant to provoke the question: Since gay couples really differ only in that both partners are of the same sex, what rational basis exists for putting homosexuals in these types of groups, all individuals in those groups have broken the law or are breaking the law or are criminals. I feel this is taking the matter to the extreme and then some.

These folks are human beings and deserve to be treated accordingly, and not like criminals, period!

.

imported_kvnhlstd
09-18-2009, 10:45 PM
Bay Area schools have started forcing the gay curriculum on kids. That's the Bay area true colors, not ours. Throwing California in one category is like throwing the East coast into one category. I live 450 miles from LA and 135 from SF. There are not many similarities between NYC and Raleigh NC...right. Well it's the same way here. I live in the Sierra Nevada mountains and believe me, it's a world apart from the Bay area or LA for that matter. The county I live in is more than 90% white and majority conservative, so the gay curriculum won't be forced on us any time soon. I certainly do agree with your overall stance though.

Yep and 50 years ago people were saying how dare they allow that colored kid in the same class as my darling little ones... ignorance is alive and thriving in america. Hatred, minimizing, or failure to see another human as an equal based on race, creed, color, or sexual orientation is wrong.

cnuslein
09-18-2009, 11:29 PM
Smarg....that was tacky!

Michaep
09-19-2009, 12:40 AM
On a side note...

Have any of you ever viewed the documentary where Rosie O Donnell rented a cruise ship for gay and lesbian couples and families?

If I remember correctly....on that show they showed two female lesbians who either adopted a daughter or had one through a sperm donor..etc...

The daughter....always viewing her two mothers engaged in kissing ...etc...started crying when she confessed that she didnt like girls, but that she liked boys

The daughter wanted to know "what was wrong with her".....

CHILDREN BEING EXPOSED TO THAT LIFESTYLE IS WRONG

....as you can observe the consequences above

And "Bruno" type guys should NEVER be allowed

imported_Seasons
09-19-2009, 02:01 AM
On a side note...

Have any of you ever viewed the documentary where Rosie O Donnell rented a cruise ship for gay and lesbian couples and families?

If I remember correctly....on that show they showed two female lesbians who either adopted a daughter or had one through a sperm donor..etc...

The daughter....always viewing her two mothers engaged in kissing ...etc...started crying when she confessed that she didnt like girls, but that she liked boys

The daughter wanted to know "what was wrong with her".....

CHILDREN BEING EXPOSED TO THAT LIFESTYLE IS WRONG

....as you can observe the consequences above

And "Bruno" type guys should NEVER be allowed

Wonderful! An example I could use against Drake if he ever showed his face again.

Also, its not wrong. Its just how learning works.

MACHINE666
09-19-2009, 05:32 AM
On a side note...

Have any of you ever viewed the documentary where Rosie O Donnell rented a cruise ship for gay and lesbian couples and families?

If I remember correctly....on that show they showed two female lesbians who either adopted a daughter or had one through a sperm donor..etc...

The daughter....always viewing her two mothers engaged in kissing ...etc...started crying when she confessed that she didnt like girls, but that she liked boys

The daughter wanted to know "what was wrong with her".....

CHILDREN BEING EXPOSED TO THAT LIFESTYLE IS WRONG

....as you can observe the consequences above

And "Bruno" type guys should NEVER be allowed

http://cdn.buzznet.com/cb/assets/imgx/3/2/9/0/1/8/1/mob-3290181.jpg

Aww...come on......the scene in Bruno where he has his "Gayby" on the talk show is a real hoot! To mean that you don't want a child to be exposed to ethnic 'diversity' at such an early age?!

:D :D :D :D :D

Berry5711
09-19-2009, 05:51 AM
I can give two craps who you go home to every night. Look Males don't room with females because it creates a distraction. Why? Males and females are attracted to each other, it is the way they are made. Now since Gay males are attracted to males, they can't room together because it is a distraction. And now the straight male has to room with someone who is attracted to them. Now I am not saying every gay guy is attracted to every gay, you get my point that Gay men like men. Anyways, so what do you do? Put the gay guy in with a female? Well you can't do that because like others have said they have different parts.

So there is problem number 1.

Number 2. We are fighting two very long wars. We are already stressed as is, why make a major change like allowing openly gay people? The military isn't about you. It is about the mission. So if you are gay in the military, focus on the mission, accomplish it, and after these wars are over or calm down then try to change it.

technomage1
09-19-2009, 06:57 AM
I can give two craps who you go home to every night. Look Males don't room with females because it creates a distraction. Why? Males and females are attracted to each other, it is the way they are made. Now since Gay males are attracted to males, they can't room together because it is a distraction. And now the straight male has to room with someone who is attracted to them. Now I am not saying every gay guy is attracted to every gay, you get my point that Gay men like men. Anyways, so what do you do? Put the gay guy in with a female? Well you can't do that because like others have said they have different parts .

You know that straights are rooming with gays right now, right? The only difference is that they don't know about it. If they never act on it, what do you care? If the gay person makes persistant unwanted sexual advances towards the straight one that's sexual harassment, and a different matter.

Coleges have the same issue with gay and straight roomates. Most of them do not have a policy in place - if you get a gay roomate, you can't demand to switch any more than if you have a Asian one.

I did find this which I thought was good advice. http://www.ehow.com/how_5119315_live-gay-lesbian-roommate.html


Number 2. We are fighting two very long wars. We are already stressed as is, why make a major change like allowing openly gay people? The military isn't about you. It is about the mission. So if you are gay in the military, focus on the mission, accomplish it, and after these wars are over or calm down then try to change it.

We'd still be an all white, male service if we did this in the past. There is no "good" time to make such a change.

MajesticThunder
09-19-2009, 04:57 PM
http://www.blue-alliance.org/dadt2.html

"The principal difficulty is to agree to differ, to agree in impartial investigation and candid argument." - Josiah Wedgwood, 1785 :rolleyes:

http://www.cmrlink.org/

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?print=yes&id=32930?

Michaep
09-19-2009, 05:21 PM
yes Techno....there are gays currently rooming with straight males.

On the other hand, if they were allowed to be fully open with it, it would be different.

Example:

You're in college and you have a roommate who seems pretty normal. Sleeps at a regular time, goes to all his classes, doesnt make too much noise...etc....

Later....you find out that he is gay/spent time in prison/likes to cross dress on the weekends/ likes to watch beastiality porn

Dont you think SOMETHING would change a little towards how you felt towards him?

I mean he was just a "regular" guy right?

Would you be totally cool with him watching donkey shows when you walked in the room?

What about WALKING IN ON YOUR ROOMMATE SCREWING ANOTHER DUDE?

yay...i win...you LOSE

imported_kvnhlstd
09-19-2009, 05:52 PM
yes Techno....there are gays currently rooming with straight males.

On the other hand, if they were allowed to be fully open with it, it would be different.

Example:

You're in college and you have a roommate who seems pretty normal. Sleeps at a regular time, goes to all his classes, doesnt make too much noise...etc....

Later....you find out that he is gay/spent time in prison/likes to cross dress on the weekends/ likes to watch beastiality porn

Dont you think SOMETHING would change a little towards how you felt towards him?

I mean he was just a "regular" guy right?

Would you be totally cool with him watching donkey shows when you walked in the room?

What about WALKING IN ON YOUR ROOMMATE SCREWING ANOTHER DUDE?

yay...i win...you LOSE

Yea... That was a well thought out intelligent response... for a third grader. What a narrow minded individual you are.

You have a better chance of having a straight, bestiality slob of a roommate than a gay one.

As for walking in on your roomy while having sex with his boyfriend, I'm sure the feeling are mutual when he sees you on top of a two tons of fun skank... because a kid with your attitude could only bag a heifer.

technomage1
09-19-2009, 05:57 PM
yes Techno....there are gays currently rooming with straight males.

On the other hand, if they were allowed to be fully open with it, it would be different.

Example:

You're in college and you have a roommate who seems pretty normal. Sleeps at a regular time, goes to all his classes, doesnt make too much noise...etc....

Later....you find out that he is gay/spent time in prison/likes to cross dress on the weekends/ likes to watch beastiality porn

Dont you think SOMETHING would change a little towards how you felt towards him?

I mean he was just a "regular" guy right?

Would you be totally cool with him watching donkey shows when you walked in the room?

What about WALKING IN ON YOUR ROOMMATE SCREWING ANOTHER DUDE?

yay...i win...you LOSE

I find it interesting you're comparing a gay person to an ex prisoner, cross dresser, or beasitiality porn watcher.

Having said that, I've had to deal with uncomfortable relevations about people that I work with or roomed with before. In one case, for example, I eventually found out a guy I hung out with a lot was an ex gang member. This made me pretty uncomfortable at first, but we talked about it and as a result our friendship grew stronger, not weaker.

I don't want to walk in on my roomate doing variety of things, for example, taking a crap or jerking off. But if I did, we'd talk afterwords about boundries, locking the bathroom door, and/or putting a towel on the door as a signal. Why should it be any different about a gay dude?

Orion
09-19-2009, 06:12 PM
Maybe he can say he went to some religious retraining camp and got reprogrammed and isnt gay anymore and should be allowed to enlist in the reserves?

You know if he was a she this whole thing would be moot! We had a female Capt get caught with a coworkers wife in their car during our christmas party and oh brother they were going at it! She didnt get reprimanded, she didnt get kicked out... but she is a woman so its different.

This whole issue should be kept in the closet!! However, I find it amazing how females can and do serve openly while males are hunted down.

ART
09-19-2009, 06:15 PM
I can give two craps who you go home to every night. Look Males don't room with females because it creates a distraction. Why? Males and females are attracted to each other, it is the way they are made. Now since Gay males are attracted to males, they can't room together because it is a distraction. And now the straight male has to room with someone who is attracted to them. Now I am not saying every gay guy is attracted to every gay, you get my point that Gay men like men. Anyways, so what do you do? Put the gay guy in with a female? Well you can't do that because like others have said they have different parts.

So there is problem number 1.

Number 2. We are fighting two very long wars. We are already stressed as is, why make a major change like allowing openly gay people? The military isn't about you. It is about the mission. So if you are gay in the military, focus on the mission, accomplish it, and after these wars are over or calm down then try to change it.

The answer is simple.

When the Clinton administration decided to allow gays to serve in the armed forces, the very first thing that should have been done is to eliminate room sharing in dorms.

imported_Seasons
09-19-2009, 07:21 PM
Would you be totally cool with him watching donkey shows when you walked in the room?

What about WALKING IN ON YOUR ROOMMATE SCREWING ANOTHER DUDE?

yay...i win...you LOSE

"You guys got 5 minutes, I need to work on homework."

I could care less. He should either post a sign or do it somewhere else. But I really don't care that he's gay.

bb stacker
09-19-2009, 08:09 PM
whats wrong with a little inter-species erotica?:D

Bael
09-20-2009, 02:13 AM
I smell troll post.

imported_WILDJOKER5
09-20-2009, 02:32 AM
Would you be totally cool with him watching donkey shows when you walked in the room?

What about WALKING IN ON YOUR ROOMMATE SCREWING ANOTHER DUDE?

yay...i win...you LOSE
So you gave two over the top "outlawed" examples, what if you walked in the room and the was your room mate had a chick dumping on his chest, hetro erotica. We can go into so many other "disgusting" herto acts that many people preform, but just walking in on your room mate with a chick would be enough to make you uncomfortable. The stigmatism over how gross man on man sex is, we all know and have the double standard when we think of woman on woman, but lets face it, there are some really bad and gross male on female relations too, even the ugos need some lovin too.

17Victor
09-20-2009, 04:40 AM
Dont care if they are gay or not. As long as I get to join in on the female-female and me male action.

All joking aside, I could care less if a gay guy/gal was shooting/fighting/serving next to me. At Barksdale, they were many gays I encountered (mostly flying B-52's), but they fullfilled thier duty, accomplished the mission and carried on. And didn't hit on me. I must be too Hetro or too Ugly, don't know....??? No problem here... Go and perform you duties (and hide your preferix) until you have satisfied your enlistment/commitment. Then enjoy your free life.....

Michaep
09-20-2009, 06:52 AM
Yea... That was a well thought out intelligent response... for a third grader. What a narrow minded individual you are.

You have a better chance of having a straight, bestiality slob of a roommate than a gay one.

As for walking in on your roomy while having sex with his boyfriend, I'm sure the feeling are mutual when he sees you on top of a two tons of fun skank... because a kid with your attitude could only bag a heifer.

MMHMM......I LOVE THEM TWO TON WOMEN.....YEAH BOYYYYYY

I mean honestly....who wouldnt love a chick who weighs a couple hundred pounds.....AND is a fun skank?

haha

And isnt the term "HEFFER"....not heifer???

And WHY does everybody keep on saying HETRO.....ITS HETEROSEXUAL......HETRO???

It sounds like a southern redneck saying HET-RA-SEC-SHUL.....lol

smarg
09-20-2009, 12:58 PM
COMING SOON TO A BASE NEAR YOU:

CC: Airman Johnny, what has been your problem lately?

Johnny: Well, sir, my boyfriend insists on going bareback on me all the time when we have sex, and it really hurts. In fact, I have a prolapsed rectum because of it, and that's why I'm missing work so much.

CC: Well, have both of you tried partner counseling? I would refer you to a chaplain, but the only chaplains that aren't deployed right now are the Muslim and Wiccan chaplains. I'll call them and see what I can do...

:D

Numrich
09-20-2009, 02:37 PM
Like Muslims, this needs to stay in the closet!!! I'm so sick of the apologetic, appeasing, leftist smug attitude!!, this is the Military, Not Hollywood, ....What in the world is going on????

Speakit
09-20-2009, 03:34 PM
Who cares if the dude is gay, hell, let them all be gay, that means more women for me, as long as they get the job done, and don't get a hard on in a community shower who gives a sh@#. If his M4 points the same direction as mine, then being gay is mute point. We should concentrate on removing the penises of rapist than worry about who’s freaking gay.

Michaep
09-20-2009, 03:40 PM
Hey......we have mandatory fun days

Superrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Gayyyyyyyyyyyyyy

lets start having mandatory gay pride parades with rainbows and glitter and parade pink MRAP's around town...



.......NOT

Michaep
09-20-2009, 03:46 PM
In all reality though.....let them in if they really wanna serve

then see all the mass chaos break out

protesters on every base

glittery pink postcards being read out in BMT by the MTI

physical assaults on every base

troops demanding not to be roomed with a gay person

HIV infections on the rise

flamboyant military members

problems with BAH....is their marriage recognized? can he move off base?

sick calls constantly dealing with "rear end" problems

.....I say we do a 1 year trial period....lets have at it

BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR BRUNO

Speakit
09-20-2009, 03:49 PM
WTF? Does this mean he will just ignore this? I'm not counting on that believe me, but wouldn't he tell me if he was going to try and get me discharged??


He's not ignoring it, there's just a process that has to be followed, if you were one on one with him maybe, but since you sent the email to the squadron, AFI must be followed.

Question...How does your squadron or recipients of the email treat you? Has it changed?

MACHINE666
09-20-2009, 04:00 PM
Michaep you also forget there will be some hot lesbians too if the 'trial period' were to take place.

:D :D :D :D :D

Dude you still fail to see the bigger picture in things.

David_H
09-20-2009, 04:03 PM
It's a very difficult and complex subject. I think gays should have exactly the same rights as anyone else in the military. There shouldn't be discrimination or prejudice. Surely these are the constitutional rights we should be protecting.

imported_kvnhlstd
09-20-2009, 04:57 PM
In all reality though.....let them in if they really wanna serve

then see all the mass chaos break out

protesters on every base

glittery pink postcards being read out in BMT by the MTI

physical assaults on every base

troops demanding not to be roomed with a gay person

HIV infections on the rise

flamboyant military members

problems with BAH....is their marriage recognized? can he move off base?

sick calls constantly dealing with "rear end" problems

.....I say we do a 1 year trial period....lets have at it

BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR BRUNO


Just another idiot post from our token homo phobe child.

Do you see the above problems in your squadron these days??? You have gay friends and working peers already and you do not even know get your head out of the sand... "Child Please"

smarg
09-20-2009, 07:47 PM
....What in the world is going on????

In a nutshell, our country is slowly collapsing. We have until mid-century--at best. Then, expect roving gangs and warlords, and walled cities guarded by private militias.:(

sigecaps
09-21-2009, 02:19 AM
In all reality though.....let them in if they really wanna serve

then see all the mass chaos break out

protesters on every base

glittery pink postcards being read out in BMT by the MTI

physical assaults on every base

troops demanding not to be roomed with a gay person

HIV infections on the rise

flamboyant military members

problems with BAH....is their marriage recognized? can he move off base?

sick calls constantly dealing with "rear end" problems

.....I say we do a 1 year trial period....lets have at it

BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR BRUNO

Segregationalists made similar "unit cohesion", as well as ridiculously racist arguments (which you can replace with homophobic) to oppose desegregation of the services. We survived, and we are better for it. Almost every Western military force to include the UK and the Israelis allows homosexuals to serve openly. To suggest that there is something unique about our country that would prevent us to follow suit with the majority of the Western/NATO militaries of the world is stupid.

Gunner007
09-21-2009, 11:44 AM
I know...jesus would never eat with sinners...oh wait...

Seriously, what does your personal faith have to do with who we should or should not allow the privilege to serve in the military? Did we swear and oath to the Bible somewhere that I'm not aware of? Is god and the bible anywhere in the Constitution we've sworn to defend?

You don't have to BBQ and have a beer with anyone...you don't now, and you won't if DADT is lifted.

Trust me, there are several folks serving that I don't care to socialize with off-duty...a lot of them I don't even like to shower with :rolleyes: ...doesn't mean i can't respect what they do on-duty and honor their service.

Oh here is the answer to your shower problem...in the rare instance nowadays were communal showers are ordered...wear a swimsuit.

As far as gays making out in the mall...well, I'm sure you only bring your family to the BX, so that is your concern right? I mean...you don't dare take them to an off-base shopping mall where they might come in contact with a gay couple? Your children are going to be seriously sheltered, man.


So when do the females start wearing their bikinis to the showers in balad so we can all get wet together?

Note, i didnt say ALL children i said very young children. I dont think all kids should be kept in the dark until they graduate high school, i just think they need to learn about certain things all in due time. Elementary school aged children dont need any unnecessary added confusion in their lives. By the time kids are in middle school they are probably mature enough to learn about such things.

Since you obviously dont pay attention to my posts on any other threads allow me to correct you. No i dont use the BX, i rarely come to base at all unless it is duty related.

As for BBQ with the sinners, you can pick and choose any verse you want to suit the current arguments your making, the over all intent of the entire book however remains the same. Yes Jesus ate with sinners, washed peoples feet, healed the sick, and even debated with the devil. I dont know too many pastors, let alone average people who would win a debate with the devil. So i find it better to not socialize with people who will make it harder for me to try to live right. I am not the guy who thinks that things i dont agree with should be banned. I am not really in favor of puritanical laws. I dont feel the governments job should be to use Biblical ideals to rule the nation. I do think human beings need to show their fellow man a little courtesy and respect though. If the nation is willing to cater to a minority idea or theory, then that group should realize they are the minorty and not feel the need to flaunt whatever that idea is out of respect for what the majority has bent and given them approval for. Whether its gay rights or whatever, if its not something the majority really agrees with but allows anyway, respect that.

I think what your trying to bait me into answering is do i compare the homosexual lifestyle with criminal or deviant behaviour. To save you the trouble of trying to rephrase the same questions over and over, yes i do. I personally feel homosexuality is akin to beastiality but thats my take on it. It still doesnt mean i want them thrown in jail, stoned as they do in the middle east, or mistreated. Its the libertarian in me, i can disagree with something and not have to see it banned. Much like smoking, i dont smoke, i dont care for it but i dont want it taxed or made illegal. I appreciate it if you are a smoker though if you have some respect that i dont like it and take your smoke in a different place so you arent blowing it in my face. Dont expose me to your preference. Much like homosexuals, have your thing, just dont expose me to your preference. Live and let live. Is there anyway for you to try to twist this anymore?

Gunner007
09-21-2009, 12:00 PM
...
Reading this statement above is jaw dropping, first you assume that homosexuality is nurture not nature... modern science disagrees, a european scientist has indentified the dna strand that renders the homosexuality trait in humans. Then you say the state of cali is forcing their value system on you... have hetrosexuals been forces their value sysytem on homsexuals for the last 500 years, and still are. I am a happily married heterosexual male, I have gay friends that I love like my own brothers. I learned long ago not to judge people and to see the good in people. I always think back to the race experiment of the 60's, Blue eyes... How would you like it if tomorrow your world flipped and Gunners were stripped of the right to marry, will property without taxation, the ablity to provide healthcare for a loved one, be able to see a loved one in the hospital... I could go on but enough is enough.
I see the future in my college daughter, her and her friends accept everyone of any race, color, gender, or sexual orientation. The next gerneration has it right, we need work.

Since i agree more with the second part of your statement i will address that. If gunners were stripped of their right to marry... Well i view being gay much like i view being a gunner, its a life choice. So i would camoflauge the fact i love guns and blend in with the majority since they are running the show.

You are trying to use lopsided logic on this one. The only thing gays really cant do legally is marry. They can have civil contracts drawn up regarding property assignments after death or wills just like anyone else. They can work and they can travel and they are free to do just about anything they please legally speaking except get married. As for healthcare, why isnt there more anger directed at the insurance companies? Its their rules that are keeping bill and ted from claiming each other as a dependant! If enough pressure were applied to the insurance companies they would change their rules. If blacks can persuade a state to change its flag i cant see how gays cant persuade a company to change its rules? As for government workers, if the insurance companies changed their rules then the states would only have to draw up some form of civil contract, so long as they dont call it marriage i dont care.

My feelings towards gays in the military wont change. I dont think one tiny fraction of a percentage of military members or potential members should be able to dominate the feelings of the majority. Military members are not like civilians, they are forced to live in tight quarters, share bathroom and shower facilities and are not given the privacy people in the civilian work force are given. Gay people working in the DMV go home at night. They dont have to share quarters with their straight co-workers. Maybe we should treat it like an election. Set up voting booths and have AD people vote on whether they think it should be allowed. If the majority of AD members say sure let them in, i would gladly say fine, the majority has spoken. Problem is i dont know very many people like you who think they should openly serve. I dont knock your opinion, i just dont agree with it.

Variable Wind
09-21-2009, 12:40 PM
Segregationalists made similar "unit cohesion", as well as ridiculously racist arguments (which you can replace with homophobic) to oppose desegregation of the services. We survived, and we are better for it. Almost every Western military force to include the UK and the Israelis allows homosexuals to serve openly. To suggest that there is something unique about our country that would prevent us to follow suit with the majority of the Western/NATO militaries of the world is stupid.

Oh yes, thats right...everyone who opposes you is a racist or a homophobe Sigecaps :rolleyes: I forgot your arguing tactics: Pathetic.

BTW you hate the isrealis, so why are you citing them as a source?

Gunner007
09-21-2009, 12:46 PM
The answer is simple.

When the Clinton administration decided to allow gays to serve in the armed forces, the very first thing that should have been done is to eliminate room sharing in dorms.

Totally agree, had they done that and funded it with the same bill that authorized the service everything would have been integrated and streamlines long before the GWOT and the drain on funding it is causing! That would have been the easy answer.

Gunner007
09-21-2009, 12:49 PM
COMING SOON TO A BASE NEAR YOU:

CC: Airman Johnny, what has been your problem lately?

Johnny: Well, sir, my boyfriend insists on going bareback on me all the time when we have sex, and it really hurts. In fact, I have a prolapsed rectum because of it, and that's why I'm missing work so much.

CC: Well, have both of you tried partner counseling? I would refer you to a chaplain, but the only chaplains that aren't deployed right now are the Muslim and Wiccan chaplains. I'll call them and see what I can do...

:D


Now thats funny i dont care who you are! But the fact you know what a prolapsed rectum is worries me smarg!

Gunner007
09-21-2009, 12:52 PM
In a nutshell, our country is slowly collapsing. We have until mid-century--at best. Then, expect roving gangs and warlords, and walled cities guarded by private militias.:(

Surely you dont mean, like every other empire that has ever existed in the world, ours too will collapse? Funny how when you compare the Roman Empire with our own and look at about the time it fell apart they began acting just like the democratic liberals think we should be acting that it collapsed fell by the wayside... Maybe i am just reading to many history books?

hawk71049
09-21-2009, 12:54 PM
COMING SOON TO A BASE NEAR YOU:

CC: Airman Johnny, what has been your problem lately?

Johnny: Well, sir, my boyfriend insists on going bareback on me all the time when we have sex, and it really hurts. In fact, I have a prolapsed rectum because of it, and that's why I'm missing work so much.

CC: Well, have both of you tried partner counseling? I would refer you to a chaplain, but the only chaplains that aren't deployed right now are the Muslim and Wiccan chaplains. I'll call them and see what I can do...

:D

Gunner,

If I were in... it would concern me that Airman Johnny was coming to a Base near me... :eek: :D

.

Gunner007
09-21-2009, 12:57 PM
Segregationalists made similar "unit cohesion", as well as ridiculously racist arguments (which you can replace with homophobic) to oppose desegregation of the services. We survived, and we are better for it. Almost every Western military force to include the UK and the Israelis allows homosexuals to serve openly. To suggest that there is something unique about our country that would prevent us to follow suit with the majority of the Western/NATO militaries of the world is stupid.

Point of ponderance...

Okay, so many of you love to play the "well the rest of the world thinks its a good idea" card so i have a question.

As immigration laws are allowing more and more muslims to inhabit western europe, they are beginning to take over more and more of the countries there. They have Sharia courts in Great Britain now. For the moment they only handle civil matters and not criminal ones but as more muslims immigrate i suspect in another decade or two those courts will also begin handling criminal matters.

So when muslims take over all these great beacons of hope you guys love to point too and gays are being slaughtered by the truck load, are you then going to stand by the whole, "well they are doing it in europe and it works there" POV? Stop worrying about what other countries are doing. There is a reason why our forefathers immigrated to this country, BECAUSE THEIRS WAS SCREWED UP! The idea wasnt to come here and screw this one up too! If all you europe lovers are so enthralled with the way europe does things move there!

1HardDI
09-21-2009, 01:56 PM
Seriously, what does your personal faith have to do with who we should or should not allow the privilege to serve in the military? Did we swear and oath to the Bible somewhere that I'm not aware of? Is god and the bible anywhere in the Constitution we've sworn to defend?


I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

Measure Man
09-21-2009, 02:06 PM
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

First...that isnt the Constitution.

Second...that part is OPTIONAL

Apparently SOME people need a little help to keep their promises...and their word alone isn't good enough.

Whatever happened to "let your yes be yes, and your no be no"?

Variable Wind
09-21-2009, 02:38 PM
He should have bolded the part right before that.

imported_BRAVO10000
09-21-2009, 02:55 PM
Wow. Hot topic.

I have openly gay people working for me at this very moment. I am in a NATO position, and they are members of militaries of other nations. Surprise, not one of them has tried to grab my ass or anything. They don't make out at work (nor do the straight people, folks). They do very good work.

I'll admit that when I was younger, this bothered me more. I have just come to realize that...if I am in the showers with a gay dude there, I am probably not the one he is going to be checking out. No, me in all my naked glory has never been a sight that one might call arousing for anyone :-)

I do see some logistic and social issues we would have to overcome...mainly cohabitation issues. We don't want copuples in our dorms, whether same-sex or co-ed. But the shower privacy thing is easy to overcome. No one is going to come and a$$-rape you in their sleep just because they are gay. That thinking is primitive, misguided and predicated on pure fear.

I can't say that I understand it. I love WOMEN. A LOT. But to each his own, as long as he behaves the way an American Fighting Man or Woman should, and puts warheads on foreheads.

1HardDI
09-21-2009, 02:57 PM
Commander: Well, Top, the new policy is in effect. From now on it's "Don't Ask, but You can Tell." It's up to us to try and make the new policy work.

First Sergeant: Should be no problem, sir. After all, I can't see where being gay would affect anyone's duty performance.

Commander: That's the attitude! I'll leave it in your hands to make it work.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(One week later)

Airman Jones: Sir, I've got a problem.

First Sergeant: What's up, Jones?

Airman Jones: It's my roommate. He's Airman Thompson.

First Sergeant: So?

Airman Jones: Well, he's gay, Sir. He told me so.

First Sergeant: We briefed you on the new policy. Gay service people are no different from anyone else. Airman Thompson does just as good a job as you do.

Airman Jones: Yes sir, but he keeps staring at me when I shower or change clothes and stuff. It's really creeping me out.

First Sergeant: I can see how that might bother you. I'll have a talk with him.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Later, that same day)

First Sergeant: Airman Thompson, we've got a problem.

Airman Thompson: Yes sir?

First Sergeant: Your roommate claims that you keep staring at him when he undresses. He feels uncomfortable with this.

Airman Thompson: Oh, no sir! I'm not looking at him. He's not even my type.

First Sergeant: Okay. Just do me and your roommate a favor. When he undresses, make sure you look in another direction. Give his privacy rights a little break, okay?

Airman Thompson: Sure sir! No problem.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Five days later)

First Sergeant: We've got a problem, Jones. Your NCOIC says this is the 2nd time you've been late for work this week. What's going on?

Airman Jones: I'm sorry sir, but I can't sleep at night. Now, every time I even reach for my zipper, Airman Thompson stares at me and gives me a "wolf-whistle." I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm about ready to smack him.

First Sergeant: No. No. You can't do that. I'll have another talk with him. Don't you even think about harming him. Got it?

Airman Jones: <glumly> Yes, sir.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Later)

First Sergeant: Thompson, your roommate claims you've been staring and whistling at him. That's sexual harassment, and we won't tolerate it. Understand?

Airman Thompson: I haven't been looking or whistling! He's just lying because he doesn't like homosexuals! Most people in the military don't like us, and they'll lie in a heartbeat!

First Sergeant: Look, you're not the only one that I'm having a problem with in implementing this policy. How about if I move you into a room all by yourself?

Airman Thompson: Sure!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Two weeks later)

Commander: First Sergeant, we've just received an Inspector General Complaint. It claims that you've given all the homosexuals in the squadron a private room?

First Sergeant: Yes, sir. There were some serious problems developing between them and their heterosexual roommates. I thought it best to get them split up before someone got hurt.

Commander: I understand, but we can't give them special privileges. We don't have enough space to give everyone a single room, and you can't single out the homosexuals as getting a benefit that isn't available to the others. Now, fix it!

First Sergeant: Yes, sir.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(One week later)

Airman Pizaz: Airman Tippy is my girlfriend.

First Sergeant: That's nice. What can I do for you.

Airman Pizaz: Well, she wants to room with me.

First Sergeant: (spitting coffee) You know we can't room a male and female together in the barracks.

Airman Pizaz: Why not? You roomed Airman Thompson and Airman Eckers together.

First Sergeant: So?

Airman Pizaz: Come on, Shirt! Everyone knows they're going together. If Thompson gets to room with his boyfriend, how come I can't room with my girlfriend?

First Sergeant: Well.....I guess that makes sense. Okay, I'll approve it.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Two weeks later)

Commander: (Storming into office, blowing steam out of his ears) What in the Hell are you doing, First Sergeant?

First Sergeant: Sir?

Commander: (Face turning blue) The Wing has just received a slew of Congressional Complaints about you from concerned parents! It appears as if you are allowing their young sons and daughters to shack up in my barracks. Is that true?

First Sergeant: Well, yes Sir....but.....

Commander: (Having a kiniption) No buts!!!!!!! Not in my Air Force!!!!!! People don't shack up in Military Barracks!! Is that clear???

First Sergeant: Yes Sir.

Commander: (Jumping up and down) Fix this, now!!!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First Sergeant (Thinking): How in the World do I fix this?

(After much thought)

I know! I'll room male homosexuals with female heterosexuals, and female homosexuals with male heterosexuals!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(One week later)

Commander: (Blood pressure rising like a steam boiler) First Sergeant, what in the blazes is going on in my squadron?

First Sergeant: Sir?

Commander: Every single male in the barracks now claims he's homosexual, and wants to move in with a heterosexual female!

First Sergeant: Well, Sir, I guess the studies were wrong. Maybe it is possible for one to change their sexual orientation.

Variable Wind
09-21-2009, 03:10 PM
An excellent illustration 1HardDI

1HardDI
09-21-2009, 03:27 PM
I stole that from a website, wish I could take credit for it. I think this points out some of the inherent problems with allowing gays to openly serve.

Eastwood
09-21-2009, 04:12 PM
This needs to stay in the closet!!! I'm so sick of the apologetic, appeasing, leftist smug attitude!!, this is the Military, Not Hollywood, ....What in the world is going on????

Ditto!!! Well said

Gunner007
09-21-2009, 05:39 PM
For a minute i thought i was out standing in the field... Far left field!

hawk71049
09-21-2009, 06:14 PM
For a minute i thought i was out standing in the field... Far left field!

Well, somewhere in the middle, but a couple comments... well, I just have a hard time with, and don't think my mind is going to change anytime soon, when it comes to how I think of these relationships.

I too am an old fart, just that thinking of the situation or ppl as being a crime or criminal, Its just not cutting the mustard with me. Sure, the environment has impacted my thinking, but then again in a few years after being exposed to this, who knows. Besides it's not for me to judge em, I say, let them live their lives the best way they can, if PDA is expressed in open and it bothers us, we need to learn how to communicate.

To simply stick our noses into their relationships or theirs into ours, for no reason... is just wrong, everyone has a life, these lives and how we live them, deserves equal freedoms.

Live and let live, you know...:)

.

hawk71049
09-21-2009, 07:52 PM
.

I stole that from a website, wish I could take credit for it. I think this points out some of the inherent problems with allowing gays to openly serve.

Remember the 1985 science fiction film called… enemy mine, that starred Dennis Quaid and Lou Gossett jr. I remember these two guys had been marooned on another planet after a battle, these two races were in the middle of an inter planet war between Dracs, a reptile alien race and humans. Their space ships had crashed there; on another alien planet, the hostilities between them were unreal. Over a period of years they learned to overcome their differences, become friends, and learned each other’s languages and cultures, they even saved each other lives at one point in time. So, the two eventually learned how to cooperate in order to live. Lou played a creature from another planet that of a reptile alien race, and Dennis a man from planet earth. In the end Lou (he was parthenogenic), which knew he was going to die, gave birth to Dennis baby, as these two had become more than just friends. One had to really see the movie, to grasp this relationship. At the time there was just some really wicked and absolutely horrid things happening to those that were gay and coming out, all over the country, too.

Probably not a good analogy, but I saw it at the time as comparable, heck that was 24 some years ago…

.

1HardDI
09-21-2009, 08:05 PM
.


Remember the 1985 science fiction film called… enemy mine, that starred Dennis Quaid and Lou Gossett jr. I remember these two guys had been marooned on another planet after a battle, these two races were in the middle of an inter planet war between Dracs, a reptile alien race and humans. Their space ships had crashed there; on another alien planet, the hostilities between them were unreal. Over a period of years they learned to overcome their differences, become friends, and learned each other’s languages and cultures, they even saved each other lives at one point in time. So, the two eventually learned how to cooperate in order to live. Lou played a creature from another planet that of a reptile alien race, and Dennis a man from planet earth. In the end Lou (he was parthenogenic), which knew he was going to die, gave birth to Dennis baby, as these two had become more than just friends. One had to really see the movie, to grasp this relationship. At the time there was just some really wicked and absolutely horrid things happening to those that were gay and coming out, all over the country, too.

Probably not a good analogy, but I saw it at the time as comparable, heck that was 24 some years ago…

.

LOL, I don't know why I find this so funny. I guess because it's so random. No, Ive never seen the movie, but I think I've heard of the book. So if we allow gays in the military than we'll end up having sex with lizard people?
Sounds like it was more out of desperation than anything, stuck on a planet alone? Isn't that what's happening in our prisons today? I haven't seen Brokeback Mountain, but was that what happened there, too?

hawk71049
09-21-2009, 08:22 PM
LOL, I don't know why I find this so funny. I guess because it's so random. No, Ive never seen the movie, but I think I've heard of the book. So if we allow gays in the military than we'll end up having sex with lizard people?
Sounds like it was more out of desperation than anything, stuck on a planet alone? Isn't that what's happening in our prisons today? I haven't seen Brokeback Mountain, but was that what happened there, too?

lmao, never saw Brokeback myself, and yeah, it was a unique movie for the time, out of Solitude plus remoteness… I suppose... :eek: :D

PS: As for the random....I guess the closure of you story brought this to mind.
.

imported_BRAVO10000
09-21-2009, 08:47 PM
An excellent illustration 1HardDI

Yes, and a sad example of disposable logic invoked by fear.

Think there aren't gays serving with you right now? They are, they just can't tell you. Are you more comfortable knowing that? Afraid they'll see you get naked and maybe get turned on? Please.

Allowing gays to serve is just not that big of a deal. First, CMSAF Campagnale brought the 1+1 standard years ago, and it is damn near a reality everywhere now. Males and females co-habitate all the time off-base and we don't worry one bit about it. And there's non-stop shagging in the dorms, always has been...hell, you could put in revolving doors half the time. If you don't think that gay people are likewise hooking up behind closed doors, you're probably being a little naive.

Allowing gays to serve does not mean someone is going to sneak into your tent at a FOB and give you the prisoner's welcome. Homosexuality does not equal sexual deviancy. These are patriotic, law-abiding Americans. They are intelligent, fit and capable (just like the women that we were smart enough to allow to serve). And we're telling them that they can't serve their country because we're afraid that they might want to bugger us.

That is just wrong,

Slap
09-21-2009, 09:00 PM
Homosexuality does not equal sexual deviancy.

That is just wrong,

Many of us disagree with you. History disagrees with you.

1HardDI
09-21-2009, 09:01 PM
I'll just throw this out and see what happens...
I think homosexuality is morally wrong. To the point that it makes me physically sick to see a homosexual couple together. Physically ill. I have been in the Marines for over 12 years. I have a perfect score on the ASVAB, I have been honor graduate or top 3 of every military school I've attended. I am regularly evaluated by my superiors as the top member of my rank that they have ever evaluated. I joined the military because they have a value system similiar to my own, or at least they used to.
If homosexuals are allowed to openly serve, I will leave the military at the next opportunity, and I will take my experience and high level of performance with me. I will miss the military I used to love, but I will be able to remain true to my core values.
How many others will leave? Will it be worth it?

Bet I get flamed for this one. Go ahead, everyone.

usmc19812000
09-21-2009, 09:12 PM
Homosexuality is a filthy, disease-ridden practice explicitly condemned by God.
Word.

who is this god you speak of, have you met it?

imported_BRAVO10000
09-21-2009, 09:15 PM
Many of us disagree with you. History disagrees with you.

No it doesn't. There are far more documented cases of sexual deviancy among straight people than there are of gays.

I can see that many disagree. That's cool, it is what the forums are for..right?

1HardDI
09-21-2009, 09:19 PM
Yes, and a sad example of disposable logic invoked by fear.

Think there aren't gays serving with you right now? They are, they just can't tell you. Are you more comfortable knowing that? Afraid they'll see you get naked and maybe get turned on? Please.

Allowing gays to serve is just not that big of a deal. First, CMSAF Campagnale brought the 1+1 standard years ago, and it is damn near a reality everywhere now. Males and females co-habitate all the time off-base and we don't worry one bit about it. And there's non-stop shagging in the dorms, always has been...hell, you could put in revolving doors half the time. If you don't think that gay people are likewise hooking up behind closed doors, you're probably being a little naive.

Allowing gays to serve does not mean someone is going to sneak into your tent at a FOB and give you the prisoner's welcome. Homosexuality does not equal sexual deviancy. These are patriotic, law-abiding Americans. They are intelligent, fit and capable (just like the women that we were smart enough to allow to serve). And we're telling them that they can't serve their country because we're afraid that they might want to bugger us.

That is just wrong,

I'm not sure what 1+1 is, or what goes on in the Air Force, but not all services are quite as woefully undisciplined. In the Corps, you aren't allowed to live out in town unless you're married. And I don't believe there to be non-stop shagging in our barracks. If you think that no gay service member would ever be attracted to a straight service member, and possibly act on it after a few drinks at a unit function, you, too, are being a little naive.
I understand there are gays serving now, I don't want to see it. Do whatever you want in private, keep it the hell away from me. I don't want to see it, I don't want my kids to see it.

imported_BRAVO10000
09-21-2009, 09:27 PM
I'll just throw this out and see what happens...
I think homosexuality is morally wrong. To the point that it makes me physically sick to see a homosexual couple together. Physically ill. I have been in the Marines for over 12 years. I have a perfect score on the ASVAB, I have been honor graduate or top 3 of every military school I've attended. I am regularly evaluated by my superiors as the top member of my rank that they have ever evaluated. I joined the military because they have a value system similiar to my own, or at least they used to.
If homosexuals are allowed to openly serve, I will leave the military at the next opportunity, and I will take my experience and high level of performance with me. I will miss the military I used to love, but I will be able to remain true to my core values.
How many others will leave? Will it be worth it?

Bet I get flamed for this one. Go ahead, everyone.


And if that means we have one less bigot in our ranks? Cool. Lots of others jumped when we desegregated and when we took women into the regular services.

Being an academian doesn't make your point of view more valuable than the next guy's opinion. You serve with gays every day now...maybe that ASVAB aptitude allows you to spot them sooner than the next guy.

I don't know oif any branch core values that make a mention of sexual preference. But public law prohibits discrimination, doesn't it? I think that pre-marital sex violates that same morality that we all profess to share. IBut we aren't talking about morality; we're talking legality. I don't necessarily agree with, say, torture from a moral standpoint. But I do empathize with the argument for its' practice.

For the record - I am as straight as a laser. But I do think that the day is coming when we're all going to have to grow up, get past our own homophobia and press. I was on the same side as you not too long ago...but I have seen it in practice and my beliefs have changed.

And Smarg - Homosexuality might be a filthy, disease-ridden practice explicitly condemned by God. So is killing, and that is what you and I do for a living. Just saying.

imported_BRAVO10000
09-21-2009, 09:33 PM
I'm not sure what 1+1 is, or what goes on in the Air Force, but not all services are quite as woefully undisciplined. In the Corps, you aren't allowed to live out in town unless you're married. And I don't believe there to be non-stop shagging in our barracks. If you think that no gay service member would ever be attracted to a straight service member, and possibly act on it after a few drinks at a unit function, you, too, are being a little naive.
I understand there are gays serving now, I don't want to see it. Do whatever you want in private, keep it the hell away from me. I don't want to see it, I don't want my kids to see it.

Sorry, my bad...I thought this was the AF forum board. Oh wait..."MilitaryTimes.com Forums > Military Service > Air Force > Coming Out".

1+1 means one person to a dorm room. Guess that makes us undisciplined...? Because we treat our folks like adults? Yes, most of our people live off-base by the time they are an E-4, or at least have the option to.

If you think that no STRAIGHT service member would ever be attracted to a straight service member OF THE OPPOSITE GENDER, and possibly act on it after a few drinks at a unit function...same argument. Guess the Marines see that is okay? What, they are just women, right? :rolleyes:

1HardDI
09-21-2009, 09:35 PM
So I am a bigot because of my morals, because I disagree with a practice condemned by almost every religion?
Are you a bigot against Christians? You seem to hate them for their beliefs (or readily insult them) and hope that they all leave the military.
And I didn't say anything about branch core values, what I meant was my core values. Yes, it's possible for people to still have values.
It's a shame if it would have to come to me leaving the Corps, but at least I could still look at myself in the mirror and know I did what I felt was right.
Too bad it'll take the Corps another 12 years to train my replacement.

1HardDI
09-21-2009, 09:43 PM
Sorry, my bad...I thought this was the AF forum board. Oh wait..."MilitaryTimes.com Forums > Military Service > Air Force > Coming Out".

1+1 means one person to a dorm room. Guess that makes us undisciplined...? Because we treat our folks like adults? Yes, most of our people live off-base by the time they are an E-4, or at least have the option to.

If you think that no STRAIGHT service member would ever be attracted to a straight service member OF THE OPPOSITE GENDER, and possibly act on it after a few drinks at a unit function...same argument. Guess the Marines see that is okay? What, they are just women, right? :rolleyes:
That's right, you are one person to a room, how's that maid service treating you?
Well, that's not the case in all the services, you know, the ones you're trying to push your agenda on. My students right now are living 6 to a room, with one shower. And they're officers.
I guess the whole "treat our folks like adults" thing isn't working, because if some rooms should have "revolving doors," they sure aren't acting like adults.
And, yes, it would be ok if a straight male hits on a straight female, as long as they were similar in rank and it didn't affect unit cohesion. But if a gay man hits on a straight guy after a few drinks, and he doesn't think it's cool, and they just so happen to be roommates, or are expected to share a GP tent, than that could spell trouble.

Bael
09-21-2009, 09:49 PM
So I am a bigot because of my morals, because I disagree with a practice condemned by almost every religion?

Depends. If you agree that what two grown consenting adults do with their private parts isn't any of your damn business, then you can be as disgusted by homosexuals as you want and not be a bigot. You don't have to accept homosexuals or homosexuality. You just have to leave them the hell alone.


And I didn't say anything about branch core values, what I meant was my core values. Yes, it's possible for people to still have values.

In the very first sentence of the post I quoted, you appeared to use the fact that many major religions condemn homosexuality to explain your own feelings about homosexuality. Which is it? Do you condemn homosexuality because many major religions do so, or do you condemn homosexuality because you just don't like it?


It's a shame if it would have to come to me leaving the Corps, but at least I could still look at myself in the mirror and know I did what I felt was right.
Too bad it'll take the Corps another 12 years to train my replacement.

The fact that you'd be willing to give up a career that you worked hard to achieve, in order to avoid breathing the same air as some gay people, truly saddens me. I'd bet you cash money that you've worked with a couple of gay folks in your career and never even knew the difference.

That's what really bothers me about people who claim to hate homosexuality. When people who profess to despise homosexuality are asked to produce tangible evidence of harm that homosexuals have done to them, in order to provide at least some rational justification for such strong feelings of disgust and repulsion, all I ever get is some vague talk of morals.

BTW, I attended a private Baptist Christian college and cannot recall any open discrimination against homosexuals preached either in the classroom or the church.

1HardDI
09-21-2009, 10:00 PM
Depends. If you agree that what two grown consenting adults do with their private parts isn't any of your damn business, then you can be as disgusted by homosexuals as you want and not be a bigot. You don't have to accept homosexuals or homosexuality. You just have to leave them the hell alone.



In the very first sentence of the post I quoted, you appeared to use the fact that many major religions condemn homosexuality to explain your own feelings about homosexuality. Which is it? Do you condemn homosexuality because many major religions do so, or do you condemn homosexuality because you just don't like it?



The fact that you'd be willing to give up a career that you worked hard to achieve, in order to avoid breathing the same air as some gay people, truly saddens me. I'd bet you cash money that you've worked with a couple of gay folks in your career and never even knew the difference.

That's what really bothers me about people who claim to hate homosexuality. When people who profess to despise homosexuality are asked to produce tangible evidence of harm that homosexuals have done to them, in order to provide at least some rational justification for such strong feelings of disgust and repulsion, all I ever get is some vague talk of morals.

BTW, I attended a private Baptist Christian college and cannot recall any open discrimination against homosexuals preached either in the classroom or the church.

Thanks for an actual response that wasn't a flame or a name calling session. I don't believe myself to be a bigot because I don't care what they do in their own rooms. Like you said, I just leave them the hell alone and I don't want to see it. Ben Franklin once said, "Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose."
As for your second question, I guess a little of both. I'm not super-religious, but I was raised that way.
It saddens me that the military would let a lot of talented, hard-working and well-trained individuals leave during a war just so two boys could kiss at the birthday ball.
As far as tangible evidence, do I really need it? I was raised to believe that homosexuality was wrong, just like I was raised to be polite to women, say sir and ma'am, please and thank you, don't eat crap off the floor. Besides the fact that it doesn't make any sense (plug goes into socket, two plugs do not electricity make.)

Bael
09-21-2009, 10:11 PM
Thanks for an actual response that wasn't a flame or a name calling session. I don't believe myself to be a bigot because I don't care what they do in their own rooms. Like you said, I just leave them the hell alone and I don't want to see it. Ben Franklin once said, "Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose."
As for your second question, I guess a little of both. I'm not super-religious, but I was raised that way.
It saddens me that the military would let a lot of talented, hard-working and well-trained individuals leave during a war just so two boys could kiss at the birthday ball.
As far as tangible evidence, do I really need it? I was raised to believe that homosexuality was wrong, just like I was raised to be polite to women, say sir and ma'am, please and thank you, don't eat crap off the floor. Besides the fact that it doesn't make any sense (plug goes into socket, two plugs do not electricity make.)

I'm not interested in flaming you because you're entitled to your beliefs. I don't question that.

But yes, you do need to provide tangible evidence of harm caused if, for example, you want to convince me or anyone else who disagrees with you that open homosexuality should continue to be barred from military service. "I don't like it" simply isn't a strong enough reason, from a policy standpoint, to codify discrimination into military law.

I sort of feel the same way you do about it. I don't get physically ill, but I don't necessarily want to see two guys holding hands on a military installation, either. However, my conscience doesn't allow me to stop at that. Two guys holding hands does me no personal harm. If it harms esprit de corps, how so? If it harms the mission, how so? And the only reason you're giving me is that so many people like you will be so utterly revolted by the whole thing, you and others who feel the same way will leave the service and create a giant hole where your experience and leadership abilities used to be.

I understand if you've got to follow your conscience. It's your right as a human being. To me, it's just a damn sad way to go out.

imported_BRAVO10000
09-22-2009, 05:06 AM
That's right, you are one person to a room, how's that maid service treating you?
Well, that's not the case in all the services, you know, the ones you're trying to push your agenda on. My students right now are living 6 to a room, with one shower. And they're officers.
I guess the whole "treat our folks like adults" thing isn't working, because if some rooms should have "revolving doors," they sure aren't acting like adults.
And, yes, it would be ok if a straight male hits on a straight female, as long as they were similar in rank and it didn't affect unit cohesion. But if a gay man hits on a straight guy after a few drinks, and he doesn't think it's cool, and they just so happen to be roommates, or are expected to share a GP tent, than that could spell trouble.

Heh. Maid service. You don't want Air Force guys living as tough as you do...it would lessen your bragging rights. :D

First - I am not the OP and I am not pushing any agenda. I am offering an opinion, because, well, that is what these forums are for.

You ask - "So I am a bigot because of my morals, because I disagree with a practice condemned by almost every religion?". Ummm maybe. You are acting like a bigot when you openly profess hatred for a group of people based on a widely-believed but largely-false stereotype...even more so when you believe them to be inferior to you. It is still discrimination.

I did not bring religion into this conversation. I could care less whether or not you are religious; however, IF you seek to make our rules in the military match your religious morals, then we get intoi a church/state conflict. The constitution guarantees freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion. What I want to see less of in the military is bigotry. If that word is too harsh or emtionally charged, I'll dilute it and just call it ignorance.

As for values - I think we have a term mismatch. As I understand it, CORE values are values shared by a group, just as doctrine is a set of truths believed by a group. Yes, you can have personal values obviously...I can see where the USMC core values could create a conflict in this situation. If "Honor" requires you to "to exemplify the ultimate in ethical and moral behavior" and you find homosexuality immoral, then the conflict in personal and core values would be insurmountble for a lot of folks. Of course, that is what makes this such a widely-debated topic.

Being honest - what's a real shame is that you would presume to put conditions on your service or hold the Corps "hostage". I don't see anything wrong with a gay man or woman wanting to defend their country, and I guess I don't get what everyone is so afraid of.

Variable Wind
09-22-2009, 12:24 PM
Yes, and a sad example of disposable logic invoked by fear.

Think there aren't gays serving with you right now? They are, they just can't tell you. Are you more comfortable knowing that? Afraid they'll see you get naked and maybe get turned on? Please.
Yeah, yeah...think I didnt already know that? If you have followed any of my posts on DADT, you would know that I think that they should be able to serve openly, but before that the issues illustrated by 1HardDI need to be addressed. If you think that those things will not be going on regularly once gays are allowed to serve openly, then obviously you have had your blinders on when it comes to the drama ALREADY existing in barracks life. Heck, even in BCT I could see the difference between all male and co-ed training facilities. A crapload of new regs and restrictions existed because they were worried about fraternization. Now you are adding a whole other dynamic into the mix. Yeah, lets not address that at all :rolleyes: To ignore that as an issue is to lack foresight and to not address it before acting could possibly do much more harm than good. I think gays should be able to serve openly, but we should make it as smooth a transition as possible to avoid unnecessary distractions to command at ALL levels.


Allowing gays to serve is just not that big of a deal. First, CMSAF Campagnale brought the 1+1 standard years ago, and it is damn near a reality everywhere now. Males and females co-habitate all the time off-base and we don't worry one bit about it. And there's non-stop shagging in the dorms, always has been...hell, you could put in revolving doors half the time. If you don't think that gay people are likewise hooking up behind closed doors, you're probably being a little naive.
Well before making a decision based on your AF bubble, remember that allowing gays to serve openly would apply all across the DOD, not everyone has your living conditions, no matter how much they wish they did. Some branches just simply do not have the resources for that.


Allowing gays to serve does not mean someone is going to sneak into your tent at a FOB and give you the prisoner's welcome. Homosexuality does not equal sexual deviancy. These are patriotic, law-abiding Americans. They are intelligent, fit and capable (just like the women that we were smart enough to allow to serve). And we're telling them that they can't serve their country because we're afraid that they might want to bugger us.
No shit.

1HardDI
09-22-2009, 01:00 PM
Heh. Maid service. You don't want Air Force guys living as tough as you do...it would lessen your bragging rights. :D

First - I am not the OP and I am not pushing any agenda. I am offering an opinion, because, well, that is what these forums are for.

You ask - "So I am a bigot because of my morals, because I disagree with a practice condemned by almost every religion?". Ummm maybe. You are acting like a bigot when you openly profess hatred for a group of people based on a widely-believed but largely-false stereotype...even more so when you believe them to be inferior to you. It is still discrimination.

I did not bring religion into this conversation. I could care less whether or not you are religious; however, IF you seek to make our rules in the military match your religious morals, then we get intoi a church/state conflict. The constitution guarantees freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion. What I want to see less of in the military is bigotry. If that word is too harsh or emtionally charged, I'll dilute it and just call it ignorance.

As for values - I think we have a term mismatch. As I understand it, CORE values are values shared by a group, just as doctrine is a set of truths believed by a group. Yes, you can have personal values obviously...I can see where the USMC core values could create a conflict in this situation. If "Honor" requires you to "to exemplify the ultimate in ethical and moral behavior" and you find homosexuality immoral, then the conflict in personal and core values would be insurmountble for a lot of folks. Of course, that is what makes this such a widely-debated topic.

Being honest - what's a real shame is that you would presume to put conditions on your service or hold the Corps "hostage". I don't see anything wrong with a gay man or woman wanting to defend their country, and I guess I don't get what everyone is so afraid of.
You know I gotta crack on the luxury edition of the Armed Services :D
If you can find the post where I openly profess hatred for homosexuals, let me know. I said I disagree with the practice, and seeing it in front of me disgusts me, probably much the same as my mother disagrees with rap music and it disgusts her. I'm not burning crosses in anyone's yard or marching on the streets.
I did misspeak when referring to Core values - the values of an organization. I meant to refer to my personal values. I think that is a good point you made about honor and what makes this so highly debatable.
I understand that the religious argument will never apply in this situation, being as how our civilization these days is so set on dividing church and state. I am not trying to use this argument. The moral argument won't stand here, either. There are plenty of logistical issues here, this is indisputable, and I think that's what's stopping it, now.
I think the rule will eventually change, as traditional values are usurped for what is acceptable today and we recieve such an influx of funds to individually house every service member in combat and garrison.
And by no means am I holding the Corps hostage. I'm not vain enough to think that they can't do without me. I believe myself to be an asset, but if my personal beliefs are directly contradictory to military standards, I would be doing the Corps a disservice by staying in, and I guess it would be time to turn my pack in. Hopefully they can wait about 8 years so that I can reach retirement, or perhaps offer early retirement if not.
And BTW, gay men and women are serving our country, no one said they couldn't.

imported_Gigglendorf
09-22-2009, 01:53 PM
If you have followed any of my posts on DADT, you would know that I think that they should be able to serve openly, but before that the issues illustrated by 1HardDI need to be addressed. If you think that those things will not be going on regularly once gays are allowed to serve openly, then obviously you have had your blinders on when it comes to the drama ALREADY existing in barracks life.

Blinders are a VERY common problem.

I mention this because you keep talking about how things will change once homosexuals are allowed to both serve and admit their preferences publicly.

This suggests, quite storngly, that you are aware that homosexuals are already in uniform today. This menas that they are already in the dormitories, and in the communal showers.

Any problems that are initiated by homosexuals being allowed to admit their preferences publicly are going to be based on the fear and prejudice against them, nto on what they themselves actually do.

After all, since we know they are already in these locations, if homosexuals were going to create this drama, they would already be doing so. The only part missing is open prejudice against speciifc individuals as a daily part of life.

Again, this aggressive prejudice was the major problem when we racially integrated the military, and even when we sexually integrated the military, honestly.

The issues we face will have nothing to do with the behavior of the average military member, whether hetero- or homo- sexual, it will have to do with the aggressively prejudiced. We have tools for dealing with those problem chidlren firmly entrenched in military culture today.

Variable Wind
09-22-2009, 02:09 PM
Blinders are a VERY common problem.
I mention this because you keep talking about how things will change once homosexuals are allowed to both serve and admit their preferences publicly.
Things will change. Its actually a fact of life.


This suggests, quite storngly, that you are aware that homosexuals are already in uniform today. This menas that they are already in the dormitories, and in the communal showers.
Yup.


Any problems that are initiated by homosexuals being allowed to admit their preferences publicly are going to be based on the fear and prejudice against them, nto on what they themselves actually do.
Wrong. It really is a two way street and it is ridiculous to assume otherwise.


After all, since we know they are already in these locations, if homosexuals were going to create this drama, they would already be doing so. The only part missing is open prejudice against speciifc individuals as a daily part of life.
Using your logic, if we know they are already in these locations, open predjudics would already exist too. Bad logic.


Again, this aggressive prejudice was the major problem when we racially integrated the military, and even when we sexually integrated the military, honestly.
Right because only whites heterosexual males cause problems in the military :rolleyes: HONESTLY haha!


The issues we face will have nothing to do with the behavior of the average military member, whether hetero- or homo- sexual, it will have to do with the aggressively prejudiced. We have tools for dealing with those problem chidlren firmly entrenched in military culture today.
Actually the problem that we face is an overly PC bureaucracy that now makes things an issue. We have to be fair right? Then lets be fair. But lets not be MORE fair to some in the Animal Farm sense of things.

imported_Gigglendorf
09-22-2009, 02:26 PM
Well, the big thing that changes when homosexuals are allowed to openly serve is that the extreme prejudiced members will now know SOME of the targets of their hatred.

Right now the vast majority of the people that they hate are "hidden" from them.

This is going to be the primary problem source, as aggressive prejudice can be easily specifically targetted.

I'm curious why you seem to think that this statement is fasle.

Variable Wind
09-22-2009, 02:34 PM
Well, the big thing that changes when homosexuals are allowed to openly serve is that the extreme prejudiced members will now know SOME of the targets of their hatred.

Right now the vast majority of the people that they hate are "hidden" from them.

This is going to be the primary problem source, as aggressive prejudice can be easily specifically targetted.

I'm curious why you seem to think that this statement is fasle.

because it is not going to be the primary problem source. Policy is going to be. As pointed out by living conditions. I dont see why you think that the issues pointed out in 1HardDI's post isnt highly plausible and very likely.

smarg
09-22-2009, 02:40 PM
Homosexuality is a filthy, disease-ridden practice explicitly condemned by God.

The next step after The Messiah soon lifts the prohibition will be the transgender airmen demanding the right to wear either male or female uniforms. I could see their point.

God help us all.

1HardDI
09-22-2009, 03:51 PM
I'm not interested in flaming you because you're entitled to your beliefs. I don't question that.

But yes, you do need to provide tangible evidence of harm caused if, for example, you want to convince me or anyone else who disagrees with you that open homosexuality should continue to be barred from military service. "I don't like it" simply isn't a strong enough reason, from a policy standpoint, to codify discrimination into military law.

I sort of feel the same way you do about it. I don't get physically ill, but I don't necessarily want to see two guys holding hands on a military installation, either. However, my conscience doesn't allow me to stop at that. Two guys holding hands does me no personal harm. If it harms esprit de corps, how so? If it harms the mission, how so? And the only reason you're giving me is that so many people like you will be so utterly revolted by the whole thing, you and others who feel the same way will leave the service and create a giant hole where your experience and leadership abilities used to be.

I understand if you've got to follow your conscience. It's your right as a human being. To me, it's just a damn sad way to go out.
The reason I don't feel the need to provide tangible evidence is that I am not trying to affect military policy or law, I am stating my personal beliefs and how they would contradict with any proposed plans.
If I were to feel the need to provide tangible evidence of harm done, I would say something to the effect that gays are 50 times more likely to contract AIDS than straight men, and that gay males account for 71% of HIV infections in the US even though they make up just 5-6% of the population, and I would offer this citation from the CDC http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/resources/factsheets/msm.htm
Or the fact that "They contract syphilis at a rate three to four times higher than nonhomosexuals. Anal intercourse causes hemorrhoids, anal fissures, anorectal trauma, and retained foreign bodies, and creates high risk for anal cancer. Among male homosexuals engaging in oral-to-anal contact, an extremely high rate of parasitic and other intestinal infections exists." as printed by the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons http://www.jpands.org/vol10no3/lehrman.pdf
Or that in a 2000 study published in The Archives of Sexual Behavior, only 2-4% of men attracted to adults are attracted to men, while around 25-40% of men attracted to children prefer boys. Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 6-20 times higher among pedophiles. Or that all but 9 of the 48 homosexual men preferred the youngest two male age categories for sexual activity. These age categories were fifteen and twenty years old.
But, I guess none of that stuff is harmful. Just eats up taxpayer dollars in medical treatments and legal issues. And it might affect unit readiness, but what do I know.

imported_Gigglendorf
09-22-2009, 04:21 PM
because it is not going to be the primary problem source. Policy is going to be. As pointed out by living conditions. I dont see why you think that the issues pointed out in 1HardDI's post isnt highly plausible and very likely.

What dirves the policy changes in that cute little story?

FUD.

Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt are the tools of hatred and manipulation, not logic and considered evaluation.

If we apply the same rules that we applied when racially integrating the military, the policy changes suggested in that cute piece of propoganda will all be explicitly forbidden before they start.

The only thing that STARTED that set of policy changes in said story was (your choice based on perspective) unpunished, already illegal behavior or lies spurred on by personal refusals to conform to required acceptance of other military members.

I try to look at causes, not at symptoms. The story is a marvelous example of untreated symptoms being allowed to snowball, while the original ILLEGAL activity continues to be ignored. The story is based on repeated, ongoing failure of the leadership to even consider performing an investigation into direct allegations of sexual harrassment! The story is a marvelous emotional appeal tool.

I base discussion points far more on logic than emotion. Emotion is used to manipulate. Logic is used to discuss.

I refuse to be manipulated for your convenience. Kind of like the Airman who was complaining in the beginning of the story . . ..

1HardDI
09-22-2009, 04:27 PM
What dirves the policy changes in that cute little story?

FUD.

Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt are the tools of hatred and manipulation, not logic and considered evaluation.

If we apply the same rules that we applied when racially integrating the military, the policy changes suggested in that cute piece of propoganda will all be explicitly forbidden before they start.

The only thing that STARTED that set of policy changes in said story was (your choice based on perspective) unpunished, already illegal behavior or lies spurred on by personal refusals to conform to required acceptance of other military members.

I try to look at causes, not at symptoms. The story is a marvelous example of untreated symptoms being allowed to snowball, while the original ILLEGAL activity continues to be ignored. The story is based on repeated, ongoing failure of the leadership to even consider performing an investigation into direct allegations of sexual harrassment! The story is a marvelous emotional appeal tool.

I base discussion points far more on logic than emotion. Emotion is used to manipulate. Logic is used to discuss.

I refuse to be manipulated for your convenience. Kind of like the Airman who was complaining in the beginning of the story . . ..

So where do you propose we house openly gay Marine recruits at recruit depots, where currently recruits live in open squad bays and are ordered to all shower together in the same shower room and use bathrooms without doors or stalls?
And don't pretend to think that nothing bad will happen.
The story is about an Airmen. Marine recruits signed up to fight and kill for mom, apple pie, and the American flag. They probably won't be filing any sexual harassment claims.

Variable Wind
09-22-2009, 04:33 PM
What dirves the policy changes in that cute little story?
FUD.
Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt are the tools of hatred and manipulation, not logic and considered evaluation.
If we apply the same rules that we applied when racially integrating the military, the policy changes suggested in that cute piece of propoganda will all be explicitly forbidden before they start.
First, Im not talking about policy changes, Im talking about current policy (Im not referring to DADT)

Second, I DARE you to try and take the scenarios given in 1HardDIs post and apply it based on race or gender. You cant. End of story.


The only thing that STARTED that set of policy changes in said story was (your choice based on perspective) unpunished, already illegal behavior or lies spurred on by personal refusals to conform to required acceptance of other military members.
Not really. If a male soldier is staring at a female soldier luridly, its wrong. It doesnt change just because the male soldier is gay and looking at a male soldier. Whats wrong with you? The difference here is that females are not forced to cohabitate with males. Gays are forced to cohabitate with straights.


I try to look at causes, not at symptoms. The story is a marvelous example of untreated symptoms being allowed to snowball, while the original ILLEGAL activity continues to be ignored. The story is based on repeated, ongoing failure of the leadership to even consider performing an investigation into direct allegations of sexual harrassment! The story is a marvelous emotional appeal tool.
You have failed as shown by your singular deduction that its all homphobia, racism and sexism.


I base discussion points far more on logic than emotion. Emotion is used to manipulate. Logic is used to discuss.
Try doing that here. Your logic has been far from respectable.


I refuse to be manipulated for your convenience. Kind of like the Airman who was complaining in the beginning of the story . . .
Yes, your belief in the double standard. Excellent POV :rolleyes:

Michaep
09-22-2009, 05:09 PM
LISTEN.....

You guys are getting this all wrong...

YES, there are currently gay and lesbians serving

The current system works fine, THEY ARE ALLOWED TO SERVE, BUT ITS DONT ASK, DONT TELL

we're not giving them polygraph tests prior to entering to see if theyre gay or not

The difference is open versus closed.

Do people currently do drugs? Yes. Now what if drugs were fully allowed? A little different I'd think

Do people currently use hookers? Yes. What if prostitution were fully allowed in the USA?

Are people gay in the military? Yes. What if they were allowed to be 110% open with everything homosexual that they do......probably going to create A LOT of problems.

Are you mad that you cant hit on a man while at work? Hit on a man on your off time then.

Are you mad that you cant wear pink panties because someone will see when you change after doing PT? Then dont wear pink panties

Are you mad that you cant have huge gay pride rainbow stickers on your vehicle? I'm sure you could, you'd probably get a lot of sh*t about it outside the military though

Are you mad that you cant paint your fingernails or have "a really fab hairstyle"? Welcome to military regs

Tell me what you'd like? Do you wanna be allowed to wear an "IM GAY" sandwich board and walk up and down the sidewalk?????

Do you wanna be allowed to stare at my genitals during showering? I dont think thats allowed for males or females as its sexual harassment

Did you wanna go to a pride parade in uniform? You cant regardless....its a political function

Smeghead
09-22-2009, 05:35 PM
So where do you propose we house openly gay Marine recruits at recruit depots, where currently recruits live in open squad bays and are ordered to all shower together in the same shower room and use bathrooms without doors or stalls?
And don't pretend to think that nothing bad will happen.
The story is about an Airmen. Marine recruits signed up to fight and kill for mom, apple pie, and the American flag. They probably won't be filing any sexual harassment claims.

As someone in the same field as 1HardDI, I have to concur. Someone please tell us how you billet openly gay and straight males and females in the basic training world without any problems. This is not the same as racial integration so telling trainees to just get over it and comply with the order won't work.

Variable Wind
09-22-2009, 05:38 PM
Do people currently do drugs? Yes. Now what if drugs were fully allowed? A little different I'd think
Doing drugs is illegal. Homosexuality isnt, you dont even need a perscription.


Do people currently use hookers? Yes. What if prostitution were fully allowed in the USA?
Prostitution is illegal. Homosexuality is not...unless its homosexual prostitution.


Are people gay in the military? Yes. What if they were allowed to be 110% open with everything homosexual that they do......probably going to create A LOT of problems.
110% open? WTF?


Are you mad that you cant hit on a man while at work? Hit on a man on your off time then.
Yeah, because that makes things better.


Are you mad that you cant wear pink panties because someone will see when you change after doing PT? Then dont wear pink panties
Your arguements are getting dumber by the minute.


Are you mad that you cant have huge gay pride rainbow stickers on your vehicle? I'm sure you could, you'd probably get a lot of sh*t about it outside the military though
Actually a gay pride sticker does not mean you are gay. And we contiunue the decent.


Are you mad that you cant paint your fingernails or have "a really fab hairstyle"? Welcome to military regs Tell me what you'd like? Do you wanna be allowed to wear an "IM GAY" sandwich board and walk up and down the sidewalk?????Do you wanna be allowed to stare at my genitals during showering? I dont think thats allowed for males or females as its sexual harassmentDid you wanna go to a pride parade in uniform? You cant regardless....its a political function

**shakes head** this debate has obviously gone wayyy over your head.

1HardDI
09-22-2009, 05:50 PM
As someone in the same field as 1HardDI, I have to concur. Someone please tell us how you billet openly gay and straight males and females in the basic training world without any problems. This is not the same as racial integration so telling trainees to just get over it and comply with the order won't work.

Nobody has ever given me an answer to this. They're so lost in their dream world of happiness, equality, and progression that they can't think realistically.

I was waiting on someone to argue with my earlier post about medical problems related with homosexuality. Nobody wants to dispute facts or logic, just morality.

Smeghead
09-22-2009, 05:55 PM
Nobody has ever given me an answer to this. They're so lost in their dream world of happiness, equality, and progression that they can't think realistically.

I was waiting on someone to argue with my earlier post about medical problems related with homosexuality. Nobody wants to dispute facts or logic, just morality.

I have absolutely no problem with gay men and women serving openly. I think in the Air Force especially it would be accepted with very little interruption--we're hardly a testosterone fueled service like the Army or Marine Corps. But in basic it just won't work. 60 strangers bunking and showering together for 8.5 weeks? All it takes is one glance, misinterpreted or otherwise, and we have a trainee being beaten down in the latrine.

And if your answer is that we billet gay males with the females, then hell, I'm checking the gay box.

Michaep
09-22-2009, 06:04 PM
Nobody has ever given me an answer to this. They're so lost in their dream world of happiness, equality, and progression that they can't think realistically.

I was waiting on someone to argue with my earlier post about medical problems related with homosexuality. Nobody wants to dispute facts or logic, just morality.

+10,000

and plus 100,000 on Smeg's post regarding A SINGLE WRONG GLANCE = BEAT DOWN

Variable Wind
09-22-2009, 06:08 PM
+10,000

and plus 100,000 on Smeg's post regarding A SINGLE WRONG GLANCE = BEAT DOWN

Yeah, you would be 'that guy'.

Michaep
09-22-2009, 06:23 PM
Yeah, you would be 'that guy'.

VARIABLE......PLEASE......GIVE SMEG AND 1HARDDI AND ANSWER TO THEIR QUESTIONS THEN

GIVE US YOUR "PERFECT SOLUTION"

Variable Wind
09-22-2009, 06:26 PM
VARIABLE......PLEASE......GIVE SMEG AND 1HARDDI AND ANSWER TO THEIR QUESTIONS THEN

GIVE US YOUR "PERFECT SOLUTION"

I dont have a perfect solution. I have never said that one exists. I say that DADT is fundamentally wrong and a logistical bandaid to a larger problem. In many ways I both agree and disagree with 1HardDI and Smeghead. But you...I dont agree with you at all. and BTW, turn off the caps.

Bael
09-22-2009, 06:33 PM
The reason I don't feel the need to provide tangible evidence is that I am not trying to affect military policy or law, I am stating my personal beliefs and how they would contradict with any proposed plans.

Fair enough. Personally, I force myself to examine my beliefs in an attempt to find out why, exactly, I feel the way I do, but like you say- as long as your beliefs remain your and you do not attempt to impose them on others by use of force, you are entitled to them.


If I were to feel the need to provide tangible evidence of harm done, I would say something to the effect that gays are 50 times more likely to contract AIDS than straight men, and that gay males account for 71% of HIV infections in the US even though they make up just 5-6% of the population, and I would offer this citation from the CDC http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/resources/factsheets/msm.htm

In nursing school, I learned that the male homosexual population is much more likely to engage in safe sex practices. Exactly why remains an unanswerable question, but the sheer power of the male sex drive and the natural male inclination toward recklessness seem to be factors. However, I don't see how those statistics you cite say anything bad about homosexuality itself; rather, they seem to be an indictment of the prevalence of unsafe choices on the part of many gay men. A straight person behaving in that way is just as susceptible to HIV infection as is a homosexual.




Or the fact that "They contract syphilis at a rate three to four times higher than nonhomosexuals.

See above. Syphilis, by the way, is curable.


Anal intercourse causes hemorrhoids, anal fissures, anorectal trauma, and retained foreign bodies, and creates high risk for anal cancer. Among male homosexuals engaging in oral-to-anal contact, an extremely high rate of parasitic and other intestinal infections exists." as printed by the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons http://www.jpands.org/vol10no3/lehrman.pdf

Anal intercourse carries those risks whether it is performed by heterosexuals or homosexuals. Proper lubrication and hygiene eliminate those problems (do I really need to tell you that?), save the anal cancer risk, but I have to say that I have never heard of anal sex connected with an increased risk of anal cancer (by which I assume you mean colorectal cancer). Colrectal cancer is a disease process with vast, multi-spectrum etiology, and I seriously question the validity of a study that purports to suggest that the friction caused by anal penetration is a causative factor.


Or that in a 2000 study published in The Archives of Sexual Behavior, only 2-4% of men attracted to adults are attracted to men, while around 25-40% of men attracted to children prefer boys. Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 6-20 times higher among pedophiles. Or that all but 9 of the 48 homosexual men preferred the youngest two male age categories for sexual activity. These age categories were fifteen and twenty years old.

Pedophilia is a mental disorder, distinct from homosexuality. Homosexuality is not, depending on who you talk to. I happen to think it is not. In any case, these statistics are indeed fallacious, in that they attempt to link homosexuality with pedophilia by attributing cause where none is evident; it is a classic example of presenting correlation as causation, in this case, insinuating that homosexuality causes pedophilia- but again, your definitions are confused. Pedophilia is by definition sexual attraction to children under 12 years of age. Attraction to fifteen-year-old boys exclusively is more properly termed ephebophilia; homosexual activity with males who are twenty years of age is not considered abnormal within the spectrum of homosexual relationships.

By the way, pedophilia is a distinct disease process. Same-sex attraction in pedophilia does not necessarily indicate a preference for homosexuality. I've seen this argument touted on various places around the internet and it almost always boils down to a poor education in the actual science of mental health and psychiatry.




But, I guess none of that stuff is harmful. Just eats up taxpayer dollars in medical treatments and legal issues. And it might affect unit readiness, but what do I know.

Of course HIV, syphilis, and sexual abuse are harmful. You didn't really make an argument here, however- you just threw a bunch of sinister-sounding statistics against the wall and hoped some of them would stick.

By the way, the disease that costs the most, in terms of taxpayer dollars, lost productivity, and overall economic burden is heart disease and stroke, by far: nearly HALF A TRILLION DOLLARS: http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/press/. Heart disease alone accounts for almost 36% of deaths in the US.

If I presented you with some sort of chart that showed a vast preponderance of heart disease within the population of male homosexuals, would you assume that homosexuality somehow caused diabetes? Because that's what you seem to want me to do.

imported_Gigglendorf
09-22-2009, 06:51 PM
So where do you propose we house openly gay Marine recruits at recruit depots, where currently recruits live in open squad bays and are ordered to all shower together in the same shower room and use bathrooms without doors or stalls?

I propose we do with them EXACTLY what we do with them today.

Those who want to violate the law because of their own prejudice must then be punished for choosing to do so.

Yes, I know. How horrible of me to expect people to be treated tomorrow with the same level fo respect and restraint that they are treated today. How horrible of me to DEMAND that people who chose to allow their own hatred to ruin their someone's life be held accountable for that choice.

Why does everyone refuse ot simply apply our existing laws instead of demanding all these special procedures that need ot be put into place?

The special procedures were in place when we allowed blacks to joint the militarry.

They were eliminated when blacks were integrated into the military.

We're talking about changing from a hidden integration to an open one, but all the FUD distributors are trying to move us from integrated to "separate but equal". Here's a clue, gents: History proves that it doesn't work as advertised.

I am not delusional. I know that people are going to create conflict and do harm to other people because they refuse to accept the difference. Catering to the people with an emotional need to respond violaently puts the violent in charge.

Shaken1976
09-22-2009, 06:57 PM
First let me state that I am neither for nor against gays in the military. I can see where some problems would exist. There are some people who would feel threatened by having gays in the military. People might think they are being hit on or whatever just because someone is being nice.

Amn Snuffy: Hey How was your weekend?

Amn Smith: Dude I am not gay. I am not interested.

Amn Snuffy: All I did was ask how your weekend was. I did not mean anything by it. Besides you are not my type.

Then Amn Smith gets offended and throws a punch. All because Amn Smith is a Homophobe. I don't think it is right and Amn Smith should be punished. Just as he would be punished for throwing a punch at someone who is black, white, or purple.

I can see where living quarters might be an issue. It could make people uncomfortable.and I believe people have the right to be comfortable in their living space. I know that all services do not have their own living space. At the same time there could be many other things that make someone uncomfortable. I have had roommates that made me uncomfortable but I figured it out.

Personally someone's sexual preference does not effect me in the least. As long as they are a hardworker and do what they need to do I don't care if they are gay, straight, lesbian. or bi. Just like I don't push my religious beliefs on others I am not going to judge someone for who they are attracted to. Now if someone is gay and making innuendo's towards someone else and it makes them uncomfortable then they need to take it up with MEO. But I think we as a whole need to learn to be a little more tolerant. People freak out over anything a little different.

Some of the comments on here are just completely ignorant. I know what the bible says. I also know it says Judge not lest you be Judged. It is not up to me to decide who is living their life right or wrong. We will all be judged in the end. As long as they follow the UCMJ and do their job then I could give a rats ass.

Variable Wind
09-22-2009, 07:00 PM
First let me state that I am neither for nor against gays in the military. I can see where some problems would exist. There are some people who would feel threatened by having gays in the military. People might think they are being hit on or whatever just because someone is being nice.

Amn Snuffy: Hey How was your weekend?

Amn Smith: Dude I am not gay. I am not interested.

Amn Snuffy: All I did was ask how your weekend was. I did not mean anything by it. Besides you are not my type.

Then Amn Smith gets offended and throws a punch. All because Amn Smith is a Homophobe. I don't think it is right and Amn Smith should be punished. Just as he would be punished for throwing a punch at someone who is black, white, or purple.

I can see where living quarters might be an issue. It could make people uncomfortable.and I believe people have the right to be comfortable in their living space. I know that all services do not have their own living space. At the same time there could be many other things that make someone uncomfortable. I have had roommates that made me uncomfortable but I figured it out.

Personally someone's sexual preference does not effect me in the least. As long as they are a hardworker and do what they need to do I don't care if they are gay, straight, lesbian. or bi. Just like I don't push my religious beliefs on others I am not going to judge someone for who they are attracted to. Now if someone is gay and making innuendo's towards someone else and it makes them uncomfortable then they need to take it up with MEO. But I think we as a whole need to learn to be a little more tolerant. People freak out over anything a little different.

Some of the comments on here are just completely ignorant. I know what the bible says. I also know it says Judge not lest you be Judged. It is not up to me to decide who is living their life right or wrong. We will all be judged in the end. As long as they follow the UCMJ and do their job then I could give a rats ass.
You and I see eye-to-eye on this for the most part. Especially on the last part.

imported_Gigglendorf
09-22-2009, 07:02 PM
First, Im not talking about policy changes, Im talking about current policy (Im not referring to DADT)

Second, I DARE you to try and take the scenarios given in 1HardDIs post and apply it based on race or gender. You cant. End of story.


Not really. If a male soldier is staring at a female soldier luridly, its wrong. It doesnt change just because the male soldier is gay and looking at a male soldier. Whats wrong with you? The difference here is that females are not forced to cohabitate with males. Gays are forced to cohabitate with straights.


You have failed as shown by your singular deduction that its all homphobia, racism and sexism.


Try doing that here. Your logic has been far from respectable.


Yes, your belief in the double standard. Excellent POV :rolleyes:


Interesting. The scenario started with a uniformed member complaining about sexual harrasment. The purported response from his chain of command was to (eventually, after repeated direct accusations of criminal behavior against a speciifc uniformed member) swap the roommates out in a fashion based on segregation.

So, the scenario began with reported, unpunished, uninvestigated, criminal behavior.

The chain of command's repsonse was to institute segregation, which does, very nicely, tie back into our hsitoric racial integration issues.

Everything else in the scenario was in response to the segregation.

The scenario begins with a chain of command refusing to enforce the UCMJ and public law (or even starting an investigation about such) against a uniformed member who has specifically been accused of said activity, by someone specifically in a position for the accusations to be possible.

Heck, the iniital scenario is based in typical homophobic perspective, since it assumes that a homosexual is going to spend his time attemtpitng to force himself upon an unwilling soul. How many NON-homophobes spend time talking about what they will do when "one of them" makes a pass at them?

If the homosexual member engages in sexual harrasment, the response should be exactly the same as if a heterosexual member engages in sexual harrasment.

If that process is followed, then the entire scenario never gets past the opening description.

Please explain how the above is emotional appeal instead of logical dissection of a bad emotional appeal presentation. Not make accusations, explain.

You said the logic is far from respecatble. Please, show me where you find the logic flawed, and why. How is it flawed logic to demand that we apply the existing rules before we start institutiong additional ones?

1HardDI
09-22-2009, 07:09 PM
[QUOTE]In nursing school, I learned that the male homosexual population is much more likely to engage in safe sex practices. Exactly why remains an unanswerable question, but the sheer power of the male sex drive and the natural male inclination toward recklessness seem to be factors. However, I don't see how those statistics you cite say anything bad about homosexuality itself; rather, they seem to be an indictment of the prevalence of unsafe choices on the part of many gay men. A straight person behaving in that way is just as susceptible to HIV infection as is a homosexual.

If the male homosexual population is more likely to engage in safe sex, how do they account for 71% of all cases of AIDS when they make up just 5-6% of the population? I quoted a very reliable source in my post. You quoted...nursing school? Nothing in your response refutes my post. 71% of all cases in the US wile only making up 5-6% of the population. What's bad about that, you ask?






See above. Syphilis, by the way, is curable.
At the expense of taxpayers and mission effectiveness, and 2-3 times more likely to occur in homosexuals. I don't get your "I heard they have safer sex" argument.









Of course HIV, syphilis, and sexual abuse are harmful. You didn't really make an argument here, however- you just threw a bunch of sinister-sounding statistics against the wall and hoped some of them would stick.

By the way, the disease that costs the most, in terms of taxpayer dollars, lost productivity, and overall economic burden is heart disease and stroke, by far: nearly HALF A TRILLION DOLLARS: http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/press/. Heart disease alone accounts for almost 36% of deaths in the US.


If I presented you with some sort of chart that showed a vast preponderance of heart disease within the population of male homosexuals, would you assume that homosexuality somehow caused diabetes? Because that's what you seem to want me to do.
So you think that these statistics are purely coincidental? Come on, dude? Really? I presented you with solid numbers, from the CDC. Forget the pedophilia thing because that was a slippery slope in the first place. After seeing the correlation between homosexuals and AIDS and other STD's, you attempt to obfuscate the issue with some random stats about heart disease? What happened, you went to the CDC website and realized that I was telling the truth? Couldn't think of anything else to say?
You really believe the correlation is coincidental...
Wow.

1HardDI
09-22-2009, 07:12 PM
I propose we do with them EXACTLY what we do with them today.



Me, too. I won't ask you your sexual orientation, you don't tell me. If it becomes clear that you're a homosexual, you're in the wrong line of work.

Variable Wind
09-22-2009, 07:13 PM
Interesting. The scenario started with a uniformed member complaining about sexual harrasment. The purpoted response fomr his chain of command was to (eventually, after repeated direct accusations of criminal behavior against a speciifc uniformed member) swap the roommates out in a fashion based on segregation.
So, the scenario began with reported, unpunished, uninvestigated criminal behavior.
Because of a he-said/he-said case of someone feeling uncomfortable with their roomate who is gay, and the other saying that the other is prejudiced. Its very likely an investigation would not only not turn up anything, but exasterbate the situation.


The chain of command's repsonse was to institute segregation, which does, very nicely, tie back into our hsitoric racial integration issues.
Whos civil rights are being violated at that point? Gays or straights. Its both and any lawyer can tell you that.


Every thing else in the scenario was in response to the segregation.
You mean like if a straight male roomed with a female?


The scenario begins with a chain of command refusing to enforce the UCMJ and public law (or even starting an investigation about such) against a uniformed member who has specifically been accused of said activity, by someone specifically in a position for the accusations to be possible.
You mean like if a straight male roomed with a female?


Heck, the iniital scenario is based in typical homophobic perspective, since it assumes that a homosexual is going to spend his time attemtpitng to force himself upon an unwilling soul. How many NON-homophobes spend time talking about what they will do when "one of them" makes a pass at them?
You mean like if a straight male roomed with a female?


If the homosexual member engages in sexual harrasment, the response should be exactly the same as if a heterosexual member engages in sexual harrasment.
You mean like if a straight male roomed with a female?


If that process is foloowed, then the entire scenario never gets past the opening description.
You mean like if a straight male roomed with a female?


Please explain how the above is emotional appeal instead of logical dissection of a bad emotional appela presentation. Not make accusations, explain.
Its a logical dissection of emotional appeal actually. But you missed that.

imported_BRAVO10000
09-22-2009, 07:22 PM
So where do you propose we house openly gay Marine recruits at recruit depots, where currently recruits live in open squad bays and are ordered to all shower together in the same shower room and use bathrooms without doors or stalls?
And don't pretend to think that nothing bad will happen.
The story is about an Airmen. Marine recruits signed up to fight and kill for mom, apple pie, and the American flag. They probably won't be filing any sexual harassment claims.

Just wondering of the Corps would bitch if they were forced to shower with women.

Yes, logistics have to be addressed (and I acknowledged that twice, V. Windy). If the DoD wants to allow openly gay members to serve, they will have to ensure that the privacy of hetero folks is respected. Just like they are forced to now. I mean - it is okay to lean against the back of another guy while taking a dump in a field latrine as long as he is straight...as far as we know? I don't particularly enjoy being naked in front of other men, straight or not.

Just saying - it is about National Defense and fighting wars, and we are worried about meatgazers. When we would know who they are, unlike now where the only obvious ones are the creepy kids that carry on excesively long conversations in the locker room when they ought to be getting dressed.

No - I don't think anything bad would happen. Based on that environment, I am betting that the flamers would keep their mouths shut to preclude that late night Code Red.

imported_BRAVO10000
09-22-2009, 07:26 PM
As someone in the same field as 1HardDI, I have to concur. Someone please tell us how you billet openly gay and straight males and females in the basic training world without any problems. This is not the same as racial integration so telling trainees to just get over it and comply with the order won't work.


Why not? No nookie during boot camp regardless of sexual preference. Why won't it work? Gays are there right now, this very moment and it seems to be working.

1HardDI
09-22-2009, 07:29 PM
Just wondering of the Corps would bitch if they were forced to shower with women.

Yes, logistics have to be addressed (and I acknowledged that twice, V. Windy). If the DoD wants to allow openly gay members to serve, they will have to ensure that the privacy of hetero folks is respected. Just like they are forced to now. I mean - it is okay to lean against the back of another guy while taking a dump in a field latrine as long as he is straight...as far as we know? I don't particularly enjoy being naked in front of other men, straight or not.

Just saying - it is about National Defense and fighting wars, and we are worried about meatgazers. When we would know who they are, unlike now where the only obvious ones are the creepy kids that carry on excesively long conversations in the locker room when they ought to be getting dressed.

No - I don't think anything bad would happen. Based on that environment, I am betting that the flamers would keep their mouths shut to preclude that late night Code Red.
Exactly, ignorance is bliss. Why rock the boat for a very small population of homosexuals, of whom a very small percentage might join the military.
It is about National Defense, and we are fighting a war. Why are we worried about a special interest group feeling the need to make make their presence known in the military.

And, no, Marines wouldn't mind showering with women.:D
If you had an 18 year old daughter, would you want her showering with Marines? We're essentially asking for the same thing.

Variable Wind
09-22-2009, 07:29 PM
Just wondering of the Corps would bitch if they were forced to shower with women.

Yes, logistics have to be addressed (and I acknowledged that twice, V. Windy). If the DoD wants to allow openly gay members to serve, they will have to ensure that the privacy of hetero folks is respected. Just like they are forced to now. I mean - it is okay to lean against the back of another guy while taking a dump in a field latrine as long as he is straight...as far as we know? I don't particularly enjoy being naked in front of other men, straight or not.

Just saying - it is about National Defense and fighting wars, and we are worried about meatgazers. When we would know who they are, unlike now where the only obvious ones are the creepy kids that carry on excesively long conversations in the locker room when they ought to be getting dressed.

No - I don't think anything bad would happen. Based on that environment, I am betting that the flamers would keep their mouths shut to preclude that late night Code Red.

A-Men, but its not just the personnel, a big problem is coming from the E.O. and it will be the bane of the military's existence. We arent allowed to tell soldiers to drink water and drive on, we have to investigate and council and brow beat instead of hitting them with a wrench to knock some sense into them. Women are treated differently. I dont agree with that. Cut their hair, make them do everything that the guys do with the guys. Same with gays. What is the problem with that?

What is wrong with saying "Hey...we are the freakin military, just because we defend Democracy doesnt mean we practice it. Now you are all the same...deal with it."

1HardDI
09-22-2009, 07:31 PM
Why not? No nookie during boot camp regardless of sexual preference. Why won't it work? Gays are there right now, this very moment and it seems to be working.

While I was a Drill Instructor, there was a kid in my company that told his platoon he was gay. Not in my platoon, thank God, because the Senior Drill Instructor had a lot of paperwork to do after that platoon gave him 26 stitches and broke his jaw and orbital socket.
Not saying I endorse these things, nor does the Corps. Those kids are in jail.
I'm just saying...s**t happens.

imported_BRAVO10000
09-22-2009, 07:37 PM
Nobody has ever given me an answer to this. They're so lost in their dream world of happiness, equality, and progression that they can't think realistically.

I was waiting on someone to argue with my earlier post about medical problems related with homosexuality. Nobody wants to dispute facts or logic, just morality.

Easy. Sodomy is a violation under Article 125 of the UCMJ. No blow jobs, no butt sex. It hasn't been enforced before...guessing it would suddenly re-emerge as a gold standard and piss of a LOT of straight folks. They show up for medical treatment "damaged" and they face prosecution. Punishment includes dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years...and that is when it is done withg CONSENT! Forcible sodomy extends that sentence to life without parole. Article 80 of the UCMJ ensures that a perpetrator is punushed for even TRYING. He or she does not have to succeed to face the full sentence.

With that in the balance...I don't know if I would be worried about a sudden jump in BuFu-related injuries. No one is talking about making sodomy an accepted practice. Seems the real issue here isn't homosexuality...it is homosexual acts that disturb people.

imported_BRAVO10000
09-22-2009, 07:41 PM
While I was a Drill Instructor, there was a kid in my company that told his platoon he was gay. Not in my platoon, thank God, because the Senior Drill Instructor had a lot of paperwork to do after that platoon gave him 26 stitches and broke his jaw and orbital socket.
Not saying I endorse these things, nor does the Corps. Those kids are in jail.
I'm just saying...s**t happens.

Heh - I wouldn't DARE miss the opportunity to point out that you disdainfully spoke of the Air Force as an "undisciplined bunch". Great example the Marines were setting there. :D

imported_kvnhlstd
09-22-2009, 07:45 PM
While I was a Drill Instructor, there was a kid in my company that told his platoon he was gay. Not in my platoon, thank God, because the Senior Drill Instructor had a lot of paperwork to do after that platoon gave him 26 stitches and broke his jaw and orbital socket.
Not saying I endorse these things, nor does the Corps. Those kids are in jail.
I'm just saying...s**t happens.


Typical response from under educated red necks... Bottom line is if POTUS changes the rules you all will put up and shut up. DOD went through this in the 40's with race and we learned to live with it, next generation will be looking back at us with disdain, so many ingnorant people out roaming around.

Variable Wind
09-22-2009, 07:46 PM
Typical response from under educated red necks... Bottom line is if POTUS changes the rules you all will put up and shut up. DOD went through this in the 40's with race and we learned to live with it, next generation will be looking back at us with disdain, so many ingnorant people out roaming around.

WTF? Get a clue.

Michaep
09-22-2009, 07:47 PM
I'll start showering with flamboyant gay men left and right....

AS SOON AS.....

....You send your precious 18 year old blonde hair, blue eyed daughter to co-exist and shower with the rest of the men during basic training :)

That leaves a sweet little thought in your mind doesnt it?

This argument is purely sexual, dont deny it. Were arguing SEXUAL preference

What makes a man gay? He wants to have SEX with other men

If all that made a man gay was that he liked wearing the color pink, it probably wouldnt be a problem

But he is attracted to male genitals....

WHY can he be allowed to look at mine.....and I cant be allowed to watch your 18 year old daughter shower in training?????

Answer that question for me and maybe i'll reconsider

I mean like you guys claim, sexual assault is punishable by UCMJ......so once again......why cant we room with females in basic training?

"everyone can restrict themselves" right?

"Feel no attraction to anyone else" right?

How about "what makes you think a gay man would want you"? How about what makes you think i'd wanna get with your daughter?

I agree, lets dump everything and everyone all together no matter what.

Meatgazers. Women changing their Tampons. Gay man gossip about hung men in their dorms.

Perfect scenarios.....as you can all tell, let it happen

I really want it to happen, then I'll say I TOLD YOU SO

Variable Wind
09-22-2009, 07:49 PM
Typical response from under educated red necks... Bottom line is if POTUS changes the rules you all will put up and shut up. DOD went through this in the 40's with race and we learned to live with it, next generation will be looking back at us with disdain, so many ingnorant people out roaming around.


I'll start showering with flamboyant gay men left and right....
AS SOON AS.....
....You send your precious 18 year old blonde hair, blue eyed daughter to co-exist and shower with the rest of the men during basic training :)
That leaves a sweet little thought in your mind doesnt it?
This argument is purely sexual, dont deny it. Were arguing SEXUAL preference
What makes a man gay? He wants to have SEX with other men
If all that made a man gay was that he liked wearing the color pink, it probably wouldnt be a problem
But he is attracted to male genitals....
WHY can he be allowed to look at mine.....and I cant be allowed to watch your 18 year old daughter hower in training?????
Answer that question for me and maybe i'll reconsider
I mean like you guys claim, sexual assault is punishable by UCMJ......so once again......why cant we room with females in basic training?
"everyone can restrict themselves" right?
"Feel no attraction to anyone else" right?
How about "what makes you think a gay man would want you"? How about what makes you think i'd wanna get with your daughter?
I agree, lets dump everything and everyone all together no matter what.
Meatgazers. Women changing their Tampons. Gay man gossip about hung men in their dorms.
Perfect scenarios.....as you can all tell, let it happen
I really want it to happen, then I'll say I TOLD YOU SO

Two examples of equally dimwitted folks from BOTH sides of the arguement.

imported_BRAVO10000
09-22-2009, 07:53 PM
:D
Exactly, ignorance is bliss. Why rock the boat for a very small population of homosexuals, of whom a very small percentage might join the military.
It is about National Defense, and we are fighting a war. Why are we worried about a special interest group feeling the need to make make their presence known in the military.

And, no, Marines wouldn't mind showering with women.:D
If you had an 18 year old daughter, would you want her showering with Marines? We're essentially asking for the same thing.

Counter - I have 2 sons. If either of them ever joins the Marines, I'll advise them to look only at the ground for their whole tour...lest they be accused of checking out someone's ding-dong. :D

You're aware that only about 15% of the entire American population is eligible for military service in any branch? Homosexuals make up about 5% of the American populus...so if you have a 300 Man suadron, you're talking about 15 folks. I don't think it is about making their presence known as much as it is that they want to serve without fear of persecution.

Michaep
09-22-2009, 07:55 PM
VARIABLE, I'm curious.....what do you think is truly going to occur if gays were openly allowed to prance around???

You do realize that there would be fights right? massive amounts of fights

refusal to shower together, that WILL happen

The drool dripping from a gay mans mouth during shower time, WILL happen

enough of the "you're stupid" arguments....a debate should counter back and fourth with intelligent input

Prove to me that fights are not going to occur

Prove to me that zero man on man assaults are going to occur instead of skyrocket

Variable Wind
09-22-2009, 07:59 PM
VARIABLE, I'm curious.....what do you think is truly going to occur if gays were openly allowed to prance around???
Well we straights are allowed to prance around too...that doesnt mean we do.


You do realize that there would be fights right? massive amounts of fights
Meh...nah, I think most of the general military populous is more disciplined than you.


refusal to shower together, that WILL happen
That very well may happen.


The drool dripping from a gay mans mouth during shower time, WILL happen
You seem to speak from experience.


enough of the "you're stupid" arguments....a debate should counter back and fourth with intelligent input
Oh you are absolutely correct, bring some intelligent input into the discussion and maybe you will be treated like an adult.


Prove to me that fights are not going to occur
Fights do occur, about MANY reasons.


Prove to me that zero man on man assaults are going to occur instead of skyrocket
I think that violence may increase slightly, but it wont skyrocket. I place a lot of faith in the military members, excluding you of course.

imported_kvnhlstd
09-22-2009, 08:00 PM
Two examples of equally dimwitted folks from BOTH sides of the arguement.

Dimwitted... yea right. Bottom line is that POTUS has said this is on his agenda for year three of his presidency, what will you all do when he lifts DADT and allows gays to openly serve??? You do know he has two gays on his staff, you do know that as a senator he has stated that DOD should strike down the DADT policy?? Bottom line is if POTUS says march, you all will march and in generations to come it will become the norm, just like racial integration.
P.S. dimwitted... undergrad in Psychology and grad in Behavioral studies.

imported_kvnhlstd
09-22-2009, 08:03 PM
VARIABLE, I'm curious.....what do you think is truly going to occur if gays were openly allowed to prance around???

You do realize that there would be fights right? massive amounts of fights

refusal to shower together, that WILL happen

The drool dripping from a gay mans mouth during shower time, WILL happen

enough of the "you're stupid" arguments....a debate should counter back and fourth with intelligent input

Prove to me that fights are not going to occur

Prove to me that zero man on man assaults are going to occur instead of skyrocket

Do not need to prove it... the UCMJ will police the ignorant right out of the service, its called assault.

Variable Wind
09-22-2009, 08:04 PM
Dimwitted... yea right. Bottom line is that POTUS has said this on his agenda for year three of his presidency, what will you all do when he lifts DADT and allows gays to openly serve??? You do know he has two gays on his staff, you do know that as a senator he has stated that DOD should strike down the DADT policy?? Bottom line is if POTUS says march, you all will march and in generations to come it will become the norm, just like racial integration.

Yeah, because everything the President says makes sense or is entirely plausible :rolleyes: I especially like your reference to uneducated rednecks. You do realize that culturally, caucasians are the most accepting of homosexual orientation? You initially assume that some guy who grew up in BFE hates gays, blacks, beats women. That is dimwitted.

and BTW, Im out, so NOTHING the president says can make me march. You do realize that it was a POTUS that implimented DADT right? Way to tank your credibility.

SailorDave
09-22-2009, 08:05 PM
They seemed to make it work okay in Starship Troopers.

ramrod
09-22-2009, 08:05 PM
....a debate should counter back and fourth with intelligent input

Practice what you preach Beavis

1HardDI
09-22-2009, 08:06 PM
Dimwitted... yea right. Bottom line is that POTUS has said this on his agenda for year three of his presidency, what will you all do when he lifts DADT and allows gays to openly serve??? You do know he has two gays on his staff, you do know that as a senator he has stated that DOD should strike down the DADT policy?? Bottom line is if POTUS says march, you all will march and in generations to come it will become the norm, just like racial integration.
P.S. dimwitted... undergrad in Psychology and grad in Behavioral studies.

Glad to see you have an opinion. Too bad it's "baaa, baaa."
Luckily, our president isn't a king or a dictator, and we have checks and balances. The momentum is swinging away from the sheeple.

1HardDI
09-22-2009, 08:07 PM
They seemed to make it work okay in Starship Troopers.

I think I brought up that movie in another thread, I got called retarded, I think, lol.:D

Variable Wind
09-22-2009, 08:07 PM
Practice what you preach Beavis

You had me at Beavis :D

imported_BRAVO10000
09-22-2009, 08:09 PM
I'll start showering with flamboyant gay men left and right....

AS SOON AS.....

....You send your precious 18 year old blonde hair, blue eyed daughter to co-exist and shower with the rest of the men during basic training :)

That leaves a sweet little thought in your mind doesnt it?

This argument is purely sexual, dont deny it. Were arguing SEXUAL preference

What makes a man gay? He wants to have SEX with other men

If all that made a man gay was that he liked wearing the color pink, it probably wouldnt be a problem

But he is attracted to male genitals....

WHY can he be allowed to look at mine.....and I cant be allowed to watch your 18 year old daughter shower in training?????

Answer that question for me and maybe i'll reconsider

I mean like you guys claim, sexual assault is punishable by UCMJ......so once again......why cant we room with females in basic training?

"everyone can restrict themselves" right?

"Feel no attraction to anyone else" right?

How about "what makes you think a gay man would want you"? How about what makes you think i'd wanna get with your daughter?

I agree, lets dump everything and everyone all together no matter what.

Meatgazers. Women changing their Tampons. Gay man gossip about hung men in their dorms.

Perfect scenarios.....as you can all tell, let it happen

I really want it to happen, then I'll say I TOLD YOU SO


Seriously...someone got the placebo instead of the Ritalin they were perscribed. That homophobia is at once obvious and pathetic. Gay men are attracted to MEN, not male genitalia. You're obviously a deep thinker. Case in point - I haven't seen a single argument that uses females as an example, but I would assert that there are far more gay women in uniform than men.

Your argument is that men in the military have no restraint. No matter - your obsession with your own genitalia is an amusing addition to this mixed bag of opinions.

1HardDI
09-22-2009, 08:10 PM
Heh - I wouldn't DARE miss the opportunity to point out that you disdainfully spoke of the Air Force as an "undisciplined bunch". Great example the Marines were setting there. :D

Well played, sir. Well played.

Variable Wind
09-22-2009, 08:10 PM
Point of order...what does any of this have to do with Ritalin?

SailorDave
09-22-2009, 08:12 PM
I'll start showering with flamboyant gay men left and right....

AS SOON AS.....

....You send your precious 18 year old blonde hair, blue eyed daughter to co-exist and shower with the rest of the men during basic training :)
She's gonna shower with them all eventually....might as well get it over with.

imported_BRAVO10000
09-22-2009, 08:14 PM
Point of order...what does any of this have to do with Ritalin?

They were out of it and perscribed Rufalin. Michaep didn't know the difference.

1HardDI
09-22-2009, 08:15 PM
She's gonna shower with them all eventually....might as well get it over with.

That's pessimistic.
All of them?

Variable Wind
09-22-2009, 08:15 PM
They were out of it and perscribed Rufalin. Michaep didn't know the difference.

More like they meant to prescribe him www.risperdal.com. ADD/ADHD has nothing to do with his problems.

1HardDI
09-22-2009, 08:18 PM
So, for those who would let their daughters shower with men, how about your wives?

I'd probably get my ass beat if this wasn't a forum, but, seriously...

If it's ok for homosexuals and straights and men and women to all cohabitate, then...

Let your wife take a shower with a platoon of Marines.

1HardDI
09-22-2009, 08:20 PM
Or your husband, Michaep. Would you let your husband shower with a bunch of women?

Variable Wind
09-22-2009, 08:21 PM
So, for those who would let their daughters shower with men, how about your wives?

I'd probably get my ass beat if this wasn't a forum, but, seriously...

If it's ok for homosexuals and straights and men and women to all cohabitate, then...

Let your wife take a shower with a platoon of Marines.

Meh, its just a platoon of Marines. Shes much more impressed with her Soldier whos IQ exceeds their cumulative IQ...Same thing with size.

:D
Sorry, you walked right into that one.

Michaep
09-22-2009, 08:21 PM
So, for those who would let their daughters shower with men, how about your wives?

I'd probably get my ass beat if this wasn't a forum, but, seriously...

If it's ok for homosexuals and straights and men and women to all cohabitate, then...

Let your wife take a shower with a platoon of Marines.

lol its all good

they claim the UCMJ will protect them from all sexual assault

false sense of security

I dont know about you, but id get sick to my stomach if an openly gay man smiled at me while I was showering

Id be in too much shock and utter disgust to hit him

SailorDave
09-22-2009, 08:22 PM
That's pessimistic.
All of them?
How else to make a completely scientific survey ?? One must be thorough, you know.

Michaep
09-22-2009, 08:23 PM
1harddi*k.....I'm on your side buddy, i wasnt arguing with you, and im not gay either

Michaep
09-22-2009, 08:24 PM
i think thats what you were meaning to say by your username

youre not a DI, youre in the closet

1HardDI
09-22-2009, 08:24 PM
Meh, its just a platoon of Marines. Shes much more impressed with her Soldier whos IQ exceeds their cumulative IQ...Same thing with size.

:D
Sorry, you walked right into that one.

Sure, dude, whatever she tells you, just keep believing it.:rolleyes:

1HardDI
09-22-2009, 08:25 PM
i think thats what you were meaning to say by your username

youre not a DI, youre in the closet

LMAO, I'm just giving you a hard time, dude. You zoomies are so sensitive.