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View Full Version : BTZ system is flawed...



Michaep
08-13-2009, 05:10 AM
I would like to post that I think the system is unfair (haha don't we all)...anyway...

6 year enlistee gets SrA at 28 months... with BTZ meaning 22 months time in service

4 year enlistee gets SrA at 36 months... with BTZ meaning 30 months time in service

I think we can all agree that BTZ depends on whether or not you have a good supervisor and the type of bullets you can get. It also depends on your base and who you're competing against at the time. So basically it's a right time and right place type of deal with deployments usually a good guarantee of BTZ...

If you're unfortunate enough to get stuck with some supervisor who never submits a package then you're out of luck

Meaning you could enlist with someone on the EXACT same day and one gets E-4 at 22 months while the other gets it at 36 months with both being equal troops...

Thats a difference of 14 MONTHS....WAY too big of a gap in the Airman category...

Even worse than not making the same rank as your buddy you enlisted with is when you make rank the same day as someone who joined 14 months prior to you and that time in service means nothing to them

It would suck to have 35 months time in service with one more month to go and then have some "fresh from tech school" troop say "F**k you, you're the same rank as me"

takthekak
08-13-2009, 05:47 AM
ever meet the SrA BTZ/SSgt first time guy with ZERO experience and
limited knowledge, but thinks they know everything and have all the answers?

Michaep
08-13-2009, 05:54 AM
I know Staffs with zero experience but they know that flexing their muscles too soon usually makes them look bad in front of others who knew them as an Airman only a week prior.

I just still cant get over the 35 months TIS versus the brand new troop being the SAME rank

That's just flat out wrong...

jacobdaniel
08-13-2009, 08:10 AM
The thing that irritates me the most about BTZ is that you could know absolutely jack shit about your job, but as long as you volunteer and get face time with your leadership, you're probably gonna get it. That's been my experience anyway.

Shrike
08-13-2009, 08:42 AM
Is it just me or are the two choices for the poll "." or "."?

BadHairCut
08-13-2009, 10:00 AM
Is it just me or are the two choices for the poll "." or "."?

I'm partial to "?"

Joca
08-13-2009, 11:59 AM
The thing that irritates me the most about BTZ is that you could know absolutely jack shit about your job, but as long as you volunteer and get face time with your leadership, you're probably gonna get it. That's been my experience anyway.

Or be so HORRIBLE at your job, that leadership doesn't want you in the shop even AROUND your job so "Yeah, Amn Snuffy, you can go give cookies to orphans"

Then BAM! BTZ!

Not that I'm bitter or anything :)

imported_WILDJOKER5
08-13-2009, 12:12 PM
I have seen the guy who failed his CDC EOC right before his EPR was written for the BTZ package. Everyone knew he didnt know his job. This guy got firewall 5 and BTZ with failing his EOC. The sad part was, the shop chiefs played ignorant to the failure, the supervisor ommited the failure on the EPR, and all the airmen knew what happened. Talk about an irrate shop afterwards.

Michaep
08-13-2009, 08:58 PM
Is it just me or are the two choices for the poll "." or "."?

yeah, my bad, I didn't mean to make it a poll but it didnt let me go back and fix it

Cobra5
08-13-2009, 09:07 PM
The entire promotion system for E-1 through E-5 is flawed. Promotion should be based on merit, job knowledge and TIS...not just TIS.

imported_BRAVO10000
08-14-2009, 04:19 AM
Come on now. Seriously. I long for the days when this is all I had to worry about.

The 6 year enlistee made a greater commitment to the Air Force - in turn, he made A1C sooner. I don't know what part of that isn't fair. He has more TIG (TIS be damned). Does seniority count for nothing to you?

BTZ or not, he won't test for Staff any sooner. By the time the TIG/TIS requirements are met., you'l all be in the same cycle. What we're really talking about, then, is 6 months x the difference in A1C versus SrA pay. That's what, 20 bucks?

BTW - if you have 35 months TIS and that noob says "F*ck You"...then wait a month. When you have SrA on, let him know what's up then. OR - you could exercise the authority you have by virtue of your higher TIG. :rolleyes:

I just don't get this viewpoint that people are ENTITLED to promotion PERIOD, let alone EARLY promotion. Some Staff Sergeant isn't doing his or her job here.

Nodhmo
08-14-2009, 06:59 AM
Worst part of BTZ is the same as quarterly awards the fact that if you supervisor and chain can not put together a descent package you are not going to win.

Winters02
08-14-2009, 04:44 PM
Worst part of BTZ is the same as quarterly awards the fact that if you supervisor and chain can not put together a descent package you are not going to win.

You don't win - you EARN!
Yes, there are always going to be a few slip-ups, where the hard-charger goes unnoticed - but from what I've seen the BTZ program is valuable for a lot of reasons:

- It lets the jr. enlisted have something to shoot for. In all honesty, would anyone in their right mind spend hours upon hours volunteering, and putting in crazy amounts of extra duty assignments for nothing? BTZ definitely helps innitiate airmen into getting involved with their community, and often, something bigger than themselves

- More often than not, many BTZ front-runners are taking college classes, or CLEPing college classes. This is a GREAT way to get people started on advancing their education/career - when it would, otherwise, be a little scary to think about.

- It actaully teaches younger airman to write (in bullet format) 1206's and EPR's. This is something that NCO's are constantly improving on, so starting out young is definitely worth while.

- And lastly, my biggest opinion - I've seen a lot of A1C's get chosen for BTZ and say "Sweet, I'm done!"
Whereas the other A1C that went unnoticed continues to strive, get better, and go on to do other greater things. I can't tell you how many BTZ winners are NOT chosen for SSgt!

If you lost out on BTZ, you need to keep pushing forward and not give up! Leadership pays more attention than you think to the airmen who didn't get BTZ, as opposed to the ones that did ;)

BRUWIN
08-14-2009, 04:49 PM
People often complain about BTZ being a volunteer award or implying a BTZ promoted individual kisses ass. But it's been my experience (27 years) that MOST people that earn BTZ simply stand out for their maturity level alone.

I've sat on many BTZ boards...volunteerism or off duty accomplishments are sometimes the the make or break thing in a lot of cases. The entire candidate pool already does their job really well or they wouldn't be submitted. I always give more credence to off duty education but volunteerism still helps. However, volunteerism is not the only thing I or anybody else considers.

Anyhow....most people I've seen make BTZ know that volunteerism can be a tie breaker and they do what it takes because they know what they want. My hats off to them. I went up for BTZ 25 years ago and didn't have a clue about what I wanted, lacked significant maturity, and only did the job I was required to do. Don't get me wrong, I did the job well...but BTZ is more than just doing your job. Needless to say I didn't make BTZ, and I've never put down the program simply because the criteria to earn BTZ didn't suit me.

BRUWIN
08-14-2009, 04:56 PM
People often complain about BTZ being a volunteer award or implying a BTZ promoted individual kiss ass. But it's been my experience (27 years) that MOST people that earn BTZ simply stand out for their maturity level alone.

I've sat on many BTZ boards...volunteerism or off duty accomplishments are sometimes the the make or break thing in a lot of cases. The entire candidate pool already does their job really well or they wouldn't be submitted. I always give more credence to off duty education but volunteerism still helps. However, volunteerism is not the only thing I or anybody else considers.

Anyhow....most people I've seen make BTZ know that volunteerism can be a tie breaker and they do what it takes because they know what they want. My hats off to them. I went up for BTZ 25 years ago and didn't have a clue about what I wanted, lacked significant maturity, and only did the job I was required to do. Don't get me wrong, I did the job well...but BTZ is more than just doing your job. Needless to say I didn't make BTZ, and I've never put down the program simply because the criteria to earn BTZ didn't suit me.

Bael
08-14-2009, 09:59 PM
BTZ needs to go and E-4 promotions need to be standardized between four and six-year enlistees.

Actually, in my Air Force, we would have Buck Sergeants.

Bael
08-14-2009, 10:04 PM
This statement:




The 6 year enlistee made a greater commitment to the Air Force - in turn, he made A1C sooner.

And this statement:


I just don't get this viewpoint that people are ENTITLED to promotion PERIOD, let alone EARLY promotion.

Seem to be at odds with each other.

BTZ is stupid, btw. And I got it back in the day. You know why? Because the commander knew my name. He knew my name because my supervisor had me at every stupid squadron/volunteer/bootlicking function that occurred on the base from the time I arrived until I sewed on the stripe.

The cost of that was that, when I put on a BTZ SrA stripe, I didn't feel confident doing my job. Sucked.

Smeghead
08-14-2009, 10:22 PM
I would like to post that I think the system is unfair (haha don't we all)...

Nope, can't say I've given it a thought. Someone not make BTZ?:rolleyes:

WarBird
08-15-2009, 08:14 AM
I have seen the guy who failed his CDC EOC right before his EPR was written for the BTZ package. Everyone knew he didnt know his job. This guy got firewall 5 and BTZ with failing his EOC. The sad part was, the shop chiefs played ignorant to the failure, the supervisor ommited the failure on the EPR, and all the airmen knew what happened. Talk about an irrate shop afterwards.

I remember the time I saw someone get an Article 15 for underage drinking (and maybe DUI, but I don't remember) during tech school, yet they were put up for, and won, BTZ at their first duty station.

imported_oih82w8
08-15-2009, 10:59 PM
Is it just me or are the two choices for the poll "." or "."?

I would have voted for ".", but the poll is closed after three votes. :rolleyes: Whew, talk about a squeeker, and what a difference that "one" vote made.

imported_BRAVO10000
08-16-2009, 12:30 AM
This statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAVO10000
The 6 year enlistee made a greater commitment to the Air Force - in turn, he made A1C sooner.

And this statement:

Quote:
I just don't get this viewpoint that people are ENTITLED to promotion PERIOD, let alone EARLY promotion.

Seem to be at odds with each other.




How so? My point was that people think that getting promoted is something that they should just have handed to them. I don't see any conflict in my message, unless you're just looking to play word games. By entitled, I mean that people don't seem to be all that interested in actually earning it.

takthekak
08-16-2009, 03:55 AM
Maybe they should just get rid of BTZ and Step promotions, both are bullshit...

I would not say that the winners from them were the most deserved anyways

BRUWIN
08-16-2009, 04:16 AM
Maybe they should just get rid of BTZ and Step promotions, both are bullshit...

I would not say that the winners from them were the most deserved anyways

Yeah...let's do what the communists do and just pay everybody the same and eliminate any kind of external motivators there may be. Eliminate WAPS and the whole damn promotion system too...just because a few bad apples may have inadvertantly scammed the system. While we are at it lets just make Hugo Chavez CSAF. Power to the people!!!!:rolleyes:

takthekak
08-16-2009, 05:51 AM
Yeah...let's do what the communists do and just pay everybody the same and eliminate any kind of external motivators there may be. Eliminate WAPS and the whole damn promotion system too...just because a few bad apples may have inadvertantly scammed the system. While we are at it lets just make Hugo Chavez CSAF. Power to the people!!!!:rolleyes:

funny...I am glad you didn't blow that out of proportion,,,I am just saying that there's a system for promotion, so why have these extra supposed motivators...First BTZ, I have seen some good people win it and some shit people win it, mostly the ones who screwed up and became saints again...Lastly, the STEP promotion has always been f'ed...They even had to mention that it wasn't supposed to be a "staff" promotion program,
funny this is that is just what I saw last year, the SF command chief exec got stepped, if he was not in that positiion, no way he would have made it....So forget meeting a board and making it on your merits, they couldn't make it through WAPS, so just give it to them...BTZ incentive...hmmm if you don't win, you get the shit in 6 months....I would like to see enlisted "frocked" to their next rank, since they make us do the work anyways as soon as we selectee's...Maybe I am getting old and jaded, I used to think it was cool when I was a SrA in a SSgt slot, TSgt in a MSgt job, etc...then it hit me that I was doing all that extra work and hours getting less pay. I remember telling my boss when I was TSgt, when he wanted me to working longer "SNCO" hours, that I would work them when I was getting the extra 500 bucks MSgts get.

Bael
08-16-2009, 03:11 PM
How so? My point was that people think that getting promoted is something that they should just have handed to them. I don't see any conflict in my message, unless you're just looking to play word games. By entitled, I mean that people don't seem to be all that interested in actually earning it.

On the interwebs, all we have are words and the games they play. It seemed to me that you were, on one hand, saying that 6-year enlistees got promoted earlier because of a greater commitment to the AF, but on the other hand, you didn't think that anyone should be entitled to an early promotion, no matter what the circumstances. Apologies if I parsed that incorrectly.

As far as earning BTZ is concerned, I understand that how successful it is at its stated goal to promote outstanding Airmen early is to vary by unit. I have not supported the BTZ program since I witnessed a few too many people getting it- including myself- based not on qualities like Airmanship or technical expertise, but how many 5k fun runs with the Colonel and how many soup kitchen volunteer hours a person was willing to do. Saw a guy fail his PT test and get it two weeks later, saw a guy fail his 5-level EOC and get it, saw a few more people get it just for being good at playing grabass with management. In my prior Air Force life, in my unit, this lead to 22-year-old Staff Sergeants getting technical guidance from SrA and even A1Cs about aspects of the job a SSgt is expected to not only know, but be authoritative about. I was one of them, and the only reason I don't feel so bad about it today is because I recognized that I was a poor excuse for a technical expert and hit the books hard.:cool:

Bael
08-16-2009, 03:13 PM
Yeah...let's do what the communists do and just pay everybody the same and eliminate any kind of external motivators there may be. Eliminate WAPS and the whole damn promotion system too...just because a few bad apples may have inadvertantly scammed the system. While we are at it lets just make Hugo Chavez CSAF. Power to the people!!!!:rolleyes:

That's a slippery slope you're sliding down.

grimreaper
06-30-2013, 08:24 PM
Does BTZ matter when the snot noses will be a SSgt in 3 1/2 to 4 years anyway.
Kill that wanker program and sissy STEP scam as well!!!

Looking at the promotion rates to TSgt and MSgt this year, that may be a fixin' to change...and that would be a good thing IMO. The less SrA we have walking around as NCO's the better.

Capt Alfredo
06-30-2013, 10:50 PM
2012 AF avg TIS for E6 selectees 10.58yrs
2013 AF avg TIS for E6 selectees 10.78yrs

Some change...

That's down from about 13.5 back in 2002-ish. I was thinking I was cool to have the line number to pin on at 12 years even. Also, I do believe you just necroposted and replied to yourself.

grimreaper
07-01-2013, 02:09 AM
2012 AF avg TIS for E6 selectees 10.58yrs
2013 AF avg TIS for E6 selectees 10.78yrs

Some change...

For TSgt this year, the promo rate was 15.03% down from 22.77% last year (-7.74%).

There were 206 more eligibles this year over last year, yet they promoted 2864 fewer.

The promotion rate history only goes back to '04, but 15.03% is the lowest it has been.

Making TSgt at about 11 years and sewing on at around 12 is about right IMO.


For MSgt, the promo percentage fell from 27.6% to 18.71% (-8.89%).

There were 719 more eligibles this year over last year, yet they promoted 1623 fewer.

The promotion rate history only goes back to '04, but 18.71% is the lowest it has been.

The average select TIS was 15.27 years.

Making at around 15 and sewing on around 16 is about right IMO.

grimreaper
07-01-2013, 03:37 AM
Thank god the babies aren't making it as much this cycle.

Yup. SSgt dropping from 40% down to about 25% will put it back where it was before the great SSgt giveaway started.