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Shaken1976
07-10-2009, 08:32 PM
When I was coming up in the Airman ranks I would have never thought to question an order. If I was told to do something I did it. If I had a problem with something I was told then I tried my best to be respectful. (Case in point while replacing an engine I was told I could not go home til it was done. No problem I was almost done anyway. However I was then told I could not take a break. Since it was over 100 degrees I respectfully requested to take long enough to refill my water bottle. When that was shot down I went to the TSgt and made my request.) If I was told to work late or stay till 4 on a friday I did it. I didn't ask if I could leave early because there was "Nothing going on".

I haven't seen much of this in my new shop but I have seen it all over the place. Airmen questioning what they are told by the supervisor or NCOIC. Complaining that they have to do something when someone else doesn't. Recently I told an airman who was walking through the BX parking lot with his hat in his hand while talking on his cell phone to put his hat on. I was nice about it and said something along the lines of "Hey you might want to think about putting that hat on." He put it on. But as I was walking ahead of him I guess he thought I was out of earshot and started complaining to whoever he was on the phone with that I had made him put his hat on and that he was close to the door anyway and I should have minded my own business. At this point I let him know that I was not hard of hearing and that I could hear him.

Another time I called an airman and let them know that they were going to need to take care of driving some people to the airport prior to deployment. This was going to happen on a Saturday. The airman informed me that I could not make him work on a Saturday. I quickly repaired that situation.

Has anyone else noticed a downward trend in the airmen of today?

BRUWIN
07-10-2009, 09:40 PM
People always say this but i don't see it. Airmen are doing the same things today that I did when I was them. And it's funny...when I was a young Airmen the NCOs were saying the same thing you are. I can still remember it now when they'd ask "what is wrong with you airmen today?".

Rev Mike Large
07-10-2009, 10:20 PM
I know that stuff happens these days, but like Bruwin, I can remember it happening when I came in as well. There were dirtbags then and there are dirtbags now. But on a general level I think Airmen are still pretty good and professional. The key is to do what you've been doing, Shaken -- correct attitudes and violations when and where they occur. That way the dirtbags don't "get away with it" and breed more scum.

fufu
07-10-2009, 10:36 PM
another time I called an airman and let them know that they were going to need to take care of driving some people to the airport prior to deployment. This was going to happen on a Saturday. The airman informed me that I could not make him work on a Saturday. I quickly repaired that situation.

Has anyone else noticed a downward trend in the airmen of today?


Did you provide the airman with a gov't vehicle?

imported_BRAVO10000
07-10-2009, 10:48 PM
Did you provide the airman with a gov't vehicle?

*** snicker *** Speak of the devil!!!

imported_WILDJOKER5
07-10-2009, 10:48 PM
Well, there are the supervisors or "leaders" like PMA that will question O-6s over things like PT. New airmen see this and it spreads like wild fire. 1 supervisor does it and 6 people immitate it.

Shaken1976
07-10-2009, 11:39 PM
Did you provide the airman with a gov't vehicle?


Yes he was provided a GOV. It wa a 2 hour ride to the airport. I would not ask them to take a POV.

MrMiracle
07-10-2009, 11:49 PM
Well, the Airmen of today are the product of the modern high school system. They're bombarded with self-esteem classes and constant reminders of the importance of their own rights and opinions.

imported_Seasons
07-11-2009, 02:23 AM
(lol) You know, inversely, I would make the argument that NOT questioning the unethical and/or illegal decisions O-6s make regarding the PT program is what truly sets the terrible precedent: and that people like YOU are actually the problem. Of course, I think we both already have a mutual understanding that our points of view on the subject are very different.

And for the record, I don't just 'question,' I 'litigate' - and I WIN.

I "question" your understanding of the word litigate. I also question where he said not to question illegal activities, hmm?

CrustySMSgt
07-11-2009, 02:25 AM
People always say this but i don't see it. Airmen are doing the same things today that I did when I was them. And it's funny...when I was a young Airmen the NCOs were saying the same thing you are. I can still remember it now when they'd ask "what is wrong with you airmen today?".

I gotta agree, for the most part. I think there is a general difference in the level of respect in lower ranking Airmen today... back in the day I'd have never thought to talk to a MSgt, much less talk back to one!

But we were doing the same dumb shit we bitch about them doing today. I was a bit of a punk... I remember back in USAFE in the mid-eighties, I got a wild hair up my ass and died my red hair Sid Viscous "blue-black." First haircut and my hair was red on the sides and black on top. No one said/did anything about it. Now the buddy of mine who decided to follow my lead, and tried to dye his blonde hair red and it ended up pink got his ass chewed and a shaved head out of the deal... lol

Then I went from USAFE to SAC... and I heard rumor there was a pool out for those trying to guess how many months I'd make it. Initially I did everything I could to buck the system... when I went out to open the gate for the flight commander, I'd bend down & tie my shoe instead of saluting, and was just a general pain in the ass. But then I got a supervisor who didn't stand for my antics and cared enough to put a bot in my ass. He was a stickler for detail... make more than 3 typos/corrections on the TYPED blotter and you had to re-type the whole thing. Funny thing is, him caring enough to ride my ass made an impression on me... and made me care. He is my mentor to this day... we are both no longer cops, but we are good friends to this day... he put on Chief 3-4 years ago and I went out to help tack him on. He was going to come to my ceremony in Oct, but is currently deployed to Afghanistan, so won't be able to make it. I owe him that stripe and my career. Tough love works. Thanks Willy G!!

imported_WILDJOKER5
07-11-2009, 02:26 AM
(lol) You know, inversely, I would make the argument that NOT questioning the unethical and/or illegal decisions O-6s make regarding the PT program is what truly sets the terrible precedent: and that people like YOU are actually the problem. Of course, I think we both already have a mutual understanding that our points of view on the subject are very different.

And for the record, I don't just 'question,' I 'litigate' - and I WIN.

You claim that when an AFI says "This is up to the commanders discretion to test more than 1 time a year and no less than 42 days between test days", and a commander actually feels that testing 2 times a year would be a good thing, you think that is an illegal act? When a commander sends you into battle, are you going to say it is illegal because you may die? Or that you are not going because you dont have the proper plateing on a humvee? How do you feel i am the problem? By following lawful orders of the officers appointed over me (where have I heard that statement before? :rolleyes: ) I am a problem with todays airmen?

imported_Seasons
07-11-2009, 03:23 AM
Funny, but this kind of activity is now illegal on my base because I refused to tacitly consent to the unethical decisions of those made by the people in charge of the PT program. Can you honestly say you would have risked as much to do what you felt was right - or are you just one of those corporate mouthpieces who likes to hear yourself yapping no matter who gets screwed in the process? (I know which one I'm putting my money on...)

As opposed to tooting your own mouthpiece? Considering its part of policy for commanders to be able to make their own expanded base regulations...it ain't illegal. You're blowing smoke. Refusing to obey regulations ain't the option. Any leader worth their salt with a spine would've had you reprimanded.

Shaken1976
07-11-2009, 03:55 AM
I had a troop a few years back who was supposedly going to marriage counceling. Turns out he was going home and hanging out at the house. Twice a week. His wife had given up on the counceiling afte rthe first week and left him. He continued to go. He got caught because the wife figured out what he was doing and ratted him out. From then on he had to be escorted to appointments wasting everyone elses time. Eventually he was kicked out for a number of reasons. None of which I would have ever attempted.

We had a shirt who had Remedial Military Training. After watching what those guys had to do I am glad I never had to do it. It was kind of like basic all over again. For the most part it seemed to work. Most of the airmen who were sent there stayed a week at most. You had to earn the right to go back to work. After a week most were more than ready. The few hardheads that didn't usually didn't last in the AF.

DHarris75
07-11-2009, 03:57 AM
Actually the AFI does not say that testing is at the commander's discretion as you quoted (in quotations).

It says that your test date SHOULD be based on your last test date... CCs are using that leeway to do as they seem fit. However, the intent of that sentence clearly indicates that your test date is based on your last test date...meaning annually (as it is NOW). The leeway is meant to give discretion based on operational needs, deployments, etc...

If that were not the case, the sentence would read "Your test date is based on the discretion of your cc not to exceed one year between test dates". That sentence would give commanders complete discretion.

But the word SHOULD changes everything. To me, that indicates that all things being normal, your test date will be based on your last date. That is what SHOULD happen under normal circumstances.

Shaken1976
07-11-2009, 04:05 AM
The CC can test anyone who they don't think presents a proper military image. If they don't think you are fit to fight they can require you to test. This is about the only case I have ever seen a CC order another test within a one year time frame. if you are fit to fight then you shouldn't worry about the test.

imported_LOAL-D
07-11-2009, 05:27 AM
error on the side of caution?

imported_Seasons
07-11-2009, 05:49 AM
Sister Mary Francis... has ANYONE really read this AFI? The CC can put people in FIP if they present an unprofessional image: that's it. The AFI says nothing about the CC *imposing* arbitrary testing. Please - take an afternoon and critically read the AFI.

We have to stop this mentality with the PT program that we can just do whatever we want w/o thinking about the legal/ethical consequences. There is one Air Force. Unfortunately, right now, our leaders have screwed up yet again, so the AF standard is ambiguous.

Because of the AF-level failure, as we are (hopefully) ethical leaders, we need to error on the side of caution and ensure we aren't overcorrecting and screwing our people. Why is this concept so hard for some people to grasp?

Hearing you talk about legal/ethical consequences is like hearing the Mother Teresa talk about penii.

Try focusing on yourself first. Namely your blatant desire to disregard regulations cause you don't agree with them, instead of utilizing the proper chains to deal with them. You know, before you try and change others. Lead by example, only I question the example you've got going.

venomadness
07-11-2009, 08:25 AM
I haven't seen much of this in my new shop but I have seen it all over the place. Airmen questioning what they are told by the supervisor or NCOIC.

Has anyone else noticed a downward trend in the airmen of today?


What I've noticed is that the NCO giving the order is a douche bag and doesn't say it with confidence. Would you listen to someone who doesn't sound like he knows what he's doing? I wouldn't...because if he's wrong...his spineless ass won't stand up for you and defend you when shit goes wrong. Bottom line, don't be a pussy and Airman will respect you.

It is my understanding that "back in the day" NCOs had balls. These days, in the touchy/feely AF, NCOs are afraid to put their foot down. I've seen some exceptions, but for the most part, it is the NCOs fault not the Airman.

imported_WRA342
07-11-2009, 01:54 PM
I believe that Airman today are no different than the airman of yesterday. What has changed is the way the Air Force trains these airmen to be leaders.

Yesterday, leaders were formally taught how to be assertive and confront problems. They planed and led thru a concept know as “Management by Objectives”. Today’s NCO grew up in a world of lax regulations and little personal accountability. They have been taught to treat the symptoms and not the behavior. The new “Social Worker” mantra has emasculated the leader of today.

The entire system is now one of accepted mediocrity coupled with and a complete lack of consequences. On top of that, there is no fear of the consequences. Why, because NCO’s & Officers often lack the ability & will to be the bad guy. More often than not, slackers know they will get away with it. We push average people up the promotion chain, and then bitch when an undesirable gets promoted. The minimum standard is celebrated in today’s Air Force.

At some point, something will happen. The Nuke world is feeling it. Problem is, the lackadaisical attitude goes far beyond the Nuke world. We need a massive cultural shift in the Air Force. Bottom line is the kinder gentler days have got to go!!

imported_Seasons
07-11-2009, 01:57 PM
(lol) Claim the moral high ground all you want; but its because of people like me that you aren't blousing your pants into your boots right now, sweet cheeks.

You seem like a smart enough guy: why can't you see that our leaders are clueless?

Actually, I do tuck my pants into my boots. As does everybody on my base. We all figured it out and it saves us hassle, keeps our pants looking professional. If people like you means whiney bitches, I'm glad I'm not. I follow the legal regulation first, use the chain next. Decades ago, people like you would've been executed for disobeying orders.

And its funny. I never said they weren't. But whether they are or aren't, they're our leaders. Get used to it until you get out or into your own position up there with the "clueless" leaders. Then lets see you put your money where your mouth is.

imported_WILDJOKER5
07-11-2009, 02:22 PM
(lol) Claim the moral high ground all you want; but its because of people like me that you aren't blousing your pants into your boots right now, sweet cheeks.

You seem like a smart enough guy: why can't you see that our leaders are clueless?

Yes, cause tucking your pants into your boot is illegal? Or is it unethical? Or is it you just dont want to do what your leaders say?

imported_WILDJOKER5
07-11-2009, 02:31 PM
Actually the AFI does not say that testing is at the commander's discretion as you quoted (in quotations).

It says that your test date SHOULD be based on your last test date... CCs are using that leeway to do as they seem fit. However, the intent of that sentence clearly indicates that your test date is based on your last test date...meaning annually (as it is NOW). The leeway is meant to give discretion based on operational needs, deployments, etc...

If that were not the case, the sentence would read "Your test date is based on the discretion of your cc not to exceed one year between test dates". That sentence would give commanders complete discretion.

But the word SHOULD changes everything. To me, that indicates that all things being normal, your test date will be based on your last date. That is what SHOULD happen under normal circumstances.

Well, the way you are reading it seems that you are adding the words of deployemnt or normal so that you can have the AFI read to fit your preference. That sentence combined with the rest of the rules supports what I said.

First rule: Your test date should(not MUST) be based on your last test date.

Second rule: You may not be tested with in 42 days of your last test day.

Third rule: You must be tested at least once a year.

Put them together, you have what I said.

Slap
07-11-2009, 04:47 PM
airmen today = too much bitching

BRUWIN
07-11-2009, 07:27 PM
Then I went from USAFE to SAC... and I heard rumor there was a pool out for those trying to guess how many months I'd make it. Initially I did everything I could to buck the system... when I went out to open the gate for the flight commander, I'd bend down & tie my shoe instead of saluting, and was just a general pain in the ass. But then I got a supervisor who didn't stand for my antics and cared enough to put a bot in my ass. He was a stickler for detail... make more than 3 typos/corrections on the TYPED blotter and you had to re-type the whole thing. Funny thing is, him caring enough to ride my ass made an impression on me... and made me care. He is my mentor to this day... we are both no longer cops, but we are good friends to this day... he put on Chief 3-4 years ago and I went out to help tack him on. He was going to come to my ceremony in Oct, but is currently deployed to Afghanistan, so won't be able to make it. I owe him that stripe and my career. Tough love works. Thanks Willy G!!


I had a few of those supervisors too. I was a two striper when I met this TSgt that pleaded with shop leadership to have me work on his crew. I didn't fully understand why because I came with a lot of baggage...but from the day I started working for him my career started on a long slow 180 degree change.

bb stacker
07-11-2009, 07:32 PM
there isn't time for hand holding like that anymore. if its a choice between wasting my time babysitting you or writing the paperwork that shows you the door, I'll take the latter. and while im busy writing it i can come up with some bs work for them to do, like pull weeds, or fill sandbags.

imported_WILDJOKER5
07-11-2009, 07:38 PM
there isn't time for hand holding like that anymore. if its a choice between wasting my time babysitting you or writing the paperwork that shows you the door, I'll take the latter. and while im busy writing it i can come up with some bs work for them to do, like pull weeds, or fill sandbags.

It will take the same amount of time to properly mentor a slack ass as it would to create a paperwork trail so that you can have the ammo to toss the dirtbag. So you would rather take the later because you are more lazy than the troop.

Shaken1976
07-11-2009, 08:07 PM
There are some people out there though who you can pour the time and energy into mentoring but in the end they just aren't cut out to be in the military. I have kids at home to take care of. I am not going to put up with anything from my airmen that I don't put up with from my kids. I shouldn't have to hold someones hand to make sure they get their job done. Just like briefing every friday "Don't Drink and Drive" Everyone knows not to drink and drive. They know it is illegal. Yet the do it anyway. Does it really matter if they were told before they left friday? Probably not. But that is what we are supposed to do so every friday before my guys leave the office I tell them not to drink and drive. I also remind my underagers not to drink. One last reminder before I dismiss them to have a good weekend about wearing seatbelts and then they can leave. I also talk to them throughout the day on friday to find out what kind of plan they might have. I care about my troops but they are not my kids. I will go to bat for them if I have to. But I fully believe there is a difference between a mistake and a crime. And if they are getting DUI's, setting fires, stealing from the BX then do I really want them working for me??? Nope.

bb stacker
07-11-2009, 08:26 PM
that may have been true in the day of the typewriter, but with pc's it takes 5min to create a loc/r. a cut here, a paste there, change some names and wala.

imported_WILDJOKER5
07-11-2009, 08:32 PM
It will take the same amount of time to properly mentor a slack ass as it would to create a paperwork trail so that you can have the ammo to toss the dirtbag. So you would rather take the later because you are more lazy than the troop.


that may have been true in the day of the typewriter, but with pc's it takes 5min to create a loc/r. a cut here, a paste there, change some names and wala.

So you have just proven my point, it is easier for you to cut and paste than to acctually mentor and train your troops. My main theme was that for every time you choose to write an LOC/LOR instead of mentor, who is the truly dirtbag waste of breath that is just collecting a paycheck and not doing their job?

bb stacker
07-11-2009, 08:49 PM
hmmm, i was under the impression that receiving paper work was not a punishment, rather a form of counseling. so i do believe i am meeting your definition of "mentorship", just not in the way you would like.

now thats not to say i just sit back and write paper work, i actually abhor it. usually a wtf over, a swift kick in the arse, or some bs work brings someone around faster. you can usually tell who thats going to work on and who needs the paper trail though.

imported_WILDJOKER5
07-11-2009, 08:54 PM
Tuche on the paper work. I just hope that is usually not the first step in your mentorship.

bb stacker
07-11-2009, 09:08 PM
no, there has to be a balance and you cant crucify someone for a first time f up (unless its one of epic proportions), and once your done with the counceling (ass chewing etc) its a done deal. you cant hang that over someones head (unless they do the same dumb thing again) or they'll never recover and become better.

or at least thats my take on things...probably not worth the paper its printed on. lol

imported_WILDJOKER5
07-11-2009, 09:16 PM
Ok, your first statement sounded like you were writing paperwork for any infraction your troops got in to. So yeah, I totally agree with you that holding the hands or keeping them on the teet just hurts the AF in the long run.

imported_WILDJOKER5
07-11-2009, 11:23 PM
Not according to the legal office on (some bases). The ruling here was that the test is called the 'annual' test for a reason, testing people more than once a year creates arbitrary (unfair) evaluation standards, and there's a little blurb in the AFI somewhere that says "[the frequency of the test is based on whether or not a person passes their last one]" (which would be violated if people were testing multiple times per year even though they passed). As a result of this ruling, all testing activity (done for a score that counts) was restricted by the base cc to once per year - as it should be (pending release of new guidance on the subject). My hope is this legal remedy will spread throughout the command and begin to affect other bases as well. I think if anything, the silliness going on with this PT AFI proves that many AF commanders are not responsible/mature enough to handle the responsibility they currently have. People are just doing 'anything they want' with the PT program in order to try and get promoted; so thank goodness we were able to stop the stupidity on this base.

Well, its ok, now that we will test 2x a year, everyone will be happy to know they are not being unfairly treated. So really, it is a moot point, now lets see the nervousess you have about forgetting how to run works out for you 2 times a year.

imported_WILDJOKER5
07-11-2009, 11:41 PM
I would say it verges on being an arbitrary/capricious use of power. The order really seemed to serve no other purpose than to annoy people - and we don't have better things to do right now than to dream up new silliness for the uniform? See article 138 of the UCMJ and decide for yourself how you feel about it. You can file a grievance under this article for essentially anything you feel is a misuse of authority. Maybe if more people started doing it, we would have less stupidity going on in the AF.

Have you done one for being forced to shave? How about wearing boxers? Wearing white sox? Or how about a "right" to sport a mullet? It is an ORDER. How do you not understand this? Haw have you even stayed in long enough to get anyone under you? You want your "right" to have a beer during lunch? Smoke indoors or even with in 25 ft of a door? What about looking at your MySpace at work, have you filed a greivence about having that site blocked? Where you filing the grievence about going to war with Iraq or Afgan? I am just going to call you Chad because you sure are a Douche.

imported_Gigglendorf
07-11-2009, 11:56 PM
(lol) Tsk, tsk... resorting to names... I will continue to question anything I want to if I feel it is trivial or unfair. That IS my right.

Actually, no, it is not.

If you are in uniform, then you put your hand up and promised to obey the orders of those appointed over you.

There was NOT an option in that oath for you to second guess or argue with those orders.

Now, it is a responsibility of the citizenry to question the decisions of our elected and appointed officials.

These only come into conflict when the volunteer military member refuses to think about what they promised to do, and thinks they didn't voluntarily yield rights in order to join the military.

imported_WILDJOKER5
07-12-2009, 12:02 AM
(lol) Tsk, tsk... resorting to names... I will continue to question anything I want to if I feel it is trivial or unfair. That IS my right.

There was the inch given in the old saying that goes,

"When I say jump, you say 'how high?'"

Now it is;

"When I say jump."

<PMA interupts> "But that makes my knees hurt. Whaaaa."

imported_WILDJOKER5
07-12-2009, 12:34 AM
...and I bet all of the other people who were being made to jump on the pavement until their knees hurt will be happy the question was finally asked - even though they were too worried about their careers (i.e. 'selfish') to ask it for themselves. (lol)

True, next comes;

"Incoming, GET DOWN!!!"

<PMA Questions> "But I dont want to get dirty in my ...." Shot and killed :(

imported_WILDJOKER5
07-12-2009, 01:44 AM
(lol) You probably wouldn't INITIALLY be sad when I was gone; but several years later, when you found yourself blousing your pants with reflective bows and being administratively separated for not being able to say the Airman's Creed backwards while crabwalking blindfolded underneath concertina wire, you might begin to realize why it's important I'm here too. ;)

Yeah, cause any rule comes close to being that stupid.

imported_WILDJOKER5
07-12-2009, 01:58 AM
(lol) Oh, come on - of course that example is sensationalization on my part. But you know, I'm willing to bet that if we had a time machine, went back to the year 1999, and asked someone if they thought people would ever be kicked out of the AF for failing PT tests and/or would have to memorize poetry instead of focusing on the mission, they would think it was laughable as well... just a thought. When is 'enough' truly enough?

Really? I have seen people kicked out for "PT", or not meeting the standards back before this PT program started or mentioned. He was a fat boy and was kicked out for it. As for the Poetry, not once have I ever had to recite it for anyone or threated with paperwork for not knowing it. All I know about it is that it starts off with "I am an American Airman". Dont kid your self into thinking you are fighting the good fight. You are just making an ass out of yourself and I am sure anyone in your chain of command is just itching at the chance to write you up for any infraction you commit.

bb stacker
07-12-2009, 02:16 AM
since we're talking about these uniform policies, why dont we put them up to a service wide vote? instead of having a retard general decide that we should be wearing pink hot pants why dont they come up with the general idea and then we run with it. seems like that would eliminate the problems of late.

imported_Gigglendorf
07-12-2009, 03:28 PM
since we're talking about these uniform policies, why dont we put them up to a service wide vote?

Because despite what you were taught as a child, you are nobody special, and you opinion just ain't that important.

The uniform standard is pushed down from above as written orders.

Everybody in uniform took an oath to obey orders.

You don't like fulfilling your oath? GET OUT.

imported_Gigglendorf
07-12-2009, 03:34 PM
Any authority has the potential to capriciously use power - and when it is my perception they do so, I will continue to complain. It is my right to file as many complaints as I wish. Au revoir!

Do you have a right to file under article 138?

Yes.

Do you have a right to refuse to follow the orders when they are given?

No.

Do you have a right to take actions which can be interpreted as trying to convince other people not to follow the orders when they are given?

No.

The last two actions are both violations of punitive articles of the UCMJ.

The ONLY exception to these two "no"s is when you believe that you can prove the order is illegal (not an abuse of authority, but illegal), and are ready to face a military trial where you will be allowed to attempt to prove your case. Should you fail, you will of course be liable for your refusal to obey a lawful order, and possibly your attempts to convince others to violate the UCMJ.

Yes, you can be found guilty of refusing to obey a lawful order and the guy who gave it can be found guilty of abuse of authority because of the same order.

imported_Seasons
07-12-2009, 03:41 PM
Do you have a right to file under article 138?

Yes.

Do you have a right to refuse to follow the orders when they are given?

No.

Do you have a right to take actions which can be interpreted as trying to convince other people not to follow the orders when they are given?

No.

The last two actions are both violations of punitive articles of the UCMJ.

The ONLY exception to these two "no"s is when you believe that you can prove the order is illegal (not an abuse of authority, but illegal), and are ready to face a military trial where you will be allowed to attempt to prove your case. Should you fail, you will of course be liable for your refusal to obey a lawful order, and possibly your attempts to convince others to violate the UCMJ.

Yes, you can be found guilty of refusing to obey a lawful order and the guy who gave it can be found guilty of abuse of authority because of the same order.

Thank you. Now if only we could convince his superiors of the same.

AF Chief
07-13-2009, 12:24 AM
Well at least all this whining I am hearing is not only confined at my base. I guess it's AF-wide.

DHarris75
07-13-2009, 12:39 AM
I've read through all the posts and responses and can agree with a lot of it. But the one main point I think I can see the most logic in is the leadership aspect affecting the growth of our Amn. I have seen too many NCOs (and not to harp again) that are usually young Staffs not have the "balls" to stand up to their troops let alone their peers.

For me, it was always easy. When I was a SrA, I started my family. After that, my co-workers were just that. Co-workers. Sure, I had friends where I worked, buddies I hung out with - but noone I would lie for, noone I would cover up for, noone I would put my stripe on the line for. Now, read that in context - I would stand up for my troops if they were right. But I'm talking about the guys that screw up. If they screw up, I have no problem exerting the correct level of corrective action to address it.

So a soft NCO mentoring a new Amn leads to a another soft NCO later.

Side note - back to the PT discussion - in Postmodern Amn's defense - he can run. So he's not afraid of testing twice a year. But the AFI says "should test based on last test". Why would that line be in there if the intent was not to have it be a twice a year test?

At any rate - as was pointed out - the new AFI will make that mute point and hopefully clear up the standards for EVERYONE - not just select units.

Measure Man
07-13-2009, 01:53 PM
Has anyone else noticed a downward trend in the airmen of today?

Airmen today...are pretty much exactly like Airmen of any other time.

imported_WILDJOKER5
07-13-2009, 03:23 PM
Airmen today...are pretty much exactly like Airmen of any other time.

But heres the reald question. Couldnt we do more to correct the problem airmen "legally" in past time. Now it seems our system of "corrective actions" are limited to paperwork and letting the CC do the "punishing". NCOs and frontline supervisors have to sit back till the papertrail is a mile long before any real corrective tool can be enforced. Yes, different screw up airmen mean well and will try to correct their actions with a simple talking to, but you got these punk airmen that need more of a physical action to knock them back in line.

Measure Man
07-13-2009, 03:39 PM
But heres the reald question. Couldnt we do more to correct the problem airmen "legally" in past time. Now it seems our system of "corrective actions" are limited to paperwork and letting the CC do the "punishing". NCOs and frontline supervisors have to sit back till the papertrail is a mile long before any real corrective tool can be enforced. Yes, different screw up airmen mean well and will try to correct their actions with a simple talking to, but you got these punk airmen that need more of a physical action to knock them back in line.

Not sure what time period you are referring to...in my 26 years, we've never been able to physically knock an Airman back in line...lol.

It's just as easy now to correct an Airman as it has always been.

Punishment has ALWAYS been the job of the commander. Enlisted people may NOT punish Airmen...you can train and correct.

How exactly did you "legally" correct Airmen in the past, that you can't do now?

garhkal
07-13-2009, 03:41 PM
I had a troop a few years back who was supposedly going to marriage counceling. Turns out he was going home and hanging out at the house. Twice a week. His wife had given up on the counceiling afte rthe first week and left him. He continued to go. He got caught because the wife figured out what he was doing and ratted him out. From then on he had to be escorted to appointments wasting everyone elses time.
.

When i was stationed in London back in 02-05, we almost got that bad ourselves. Had this one E4 chick who continually went home when she was 'going to a medical appt etc. Even with us calling and checking up on her, she bucked the system. Unfortunatly, our chain was a bunch of pussies as not a one did anything about it, even with me doing all the paperwork.


On top of that, there is no fear of the consequences. Why, because NCO’s & Officers often lack the ability & will to be the bad guy. More often than not, slackers know they will get away with it

Well said. That is imo one of the biggest issues facing not only the Airforce, but all branches. People don't want to push the issue of punishment for 'fear' of getting labled cruel or Un PC>

imported_WILDJOKER5
07-13-2009, 03:47 PM
Not sure what time period you are referring to...in my 26 years, we've never been able to physically knock an Airman back in line...lol.

It's just as easy now to correct an Airman as it has always been.

Punishment has ALWAYS been the job of the commander. Enlisted people may NOT punish Airmen...you can train and correct.

How exactly did you "legally" correct Airmen in the past, that you can't do now?

No, that is my question. I havnt been in any length to know what they did back then. Been in a good time but not that long. 8-12 years so far.

I know punishment come from officers, but push-ups and butterfly kicks till they puke has gone the way of the past. You tell PMA to do push-ups he will come back with some crap excuse of why that is illegal and how he is going to report you straight to Obama and CNN.

I dont know much about correcting because the people I work with are typically good. They may mess up with a DUI or never at all.

Measure Man
07-13-2009, 03:55 PM
No, that is my question. I havnt been in any length to know what they did back then. Been in a good time but not that long. 8-12 years so far.

I know punishment come from officers, but push-ups and butterfly kicks till they puke has gone the way of the past. You tell PMA to do push-ups he will come back with some crap excuse of why that is illegal and how he is going to report you straight to Obama and CNN.

I dont know much about correcting because the people I work with are typically good. They may mess up with a DUI or never at all.

We've never done pushups or butterfly kicks in the AF, in my experience.

imported_2T2_1997
07-13-2009, 04:02 PM
Airman at SUU wrecks his motorcycle going in excess of 100mph...kills himself.

Frontline supervision and the motorcycle safety course are the ones at fault.

That's a headscratcher.

VFFSSGT
07-13-2009, 07:22 PM
When I was coming up in the Airman ranks I would have never thought to question an order. If I was told to do something I did it. If I had a problem with something I was told then I tried my best to be respectful. (Case in point while replacing an engine I was told I could not go home til it was done. No problem I was almost done anyway. However I was then told I could not take a break. Since it was over 100 degrees I respectfully requested to take long enough to refill my water bottle. When that was shot down I went to the TSgt and made my request.) If I was told to work late or stay till 4 on a friday I did it. I didn't ask if I could leave early because there was "Nothing going on".

I haven't seen much of this in my new shop but I have seen it all over the place. Airmen questioning what they are told by the supervisor or NCOIC. Complaining that they have to do something when someone else doesn't. Recently I told an airman who was walking through the BX parking lot with his hat in his hand while talking on his cell phone to put his hat on. I was nice about it and said something along the lines of "Hey you might want to think about putting that hat on." He put it on. But as I was walking ahead of him I guess he thought I was out of earshot and started complaining to whoever he was on the phone with that I had made him put his hat on and that he was close to the door anyway and I should have minded my own business. At this point I let him know that I was not hard of hearing and that I could hear him.

Another time I called an airman and let them know that they were going to need to take care of driving some people to the airport prior to deployment. This was going to happen on a Saturday. The airman informed me that I could not make him work on a Saturday. I quickly repaired that situation.

Has anyone else noticed a downward trend in the airmen of today?

I believe a lot of it is spawned by some just have a different work ethic than others; however, I do believe the number of "questioning" Airmen and NCO's now is on the rise...

Slap
07-13-2009, 07:32 PM
its the society we live in. now everyone gets/needs a trophy. everyone now feels entitled that their opinion is "special". not true.

hell i think the airman's creed is full of crap but i'll recite it all day because it doesn't matter what i think.

garhkal
07-13-2009, 07:38 PM
Airman at SUU wrecks his motorcycle going in excess of 100mph...kills himself.

Frontline supervision and the motorcycle safety course are the ones at fault.

That's a headscratcher.

Just like some dumb shit decides to go get drunk and drives, even though we have had stand down after stand down, Anti DUI campaign after campaign, but rather than blame it on the stupidity of the butt head, they claim it was a failure of the command.
Part and parcel of our blame culture.

Shaken1976
07-13-2009, 08:04 PM
Don't you know you have to brief people everytime they leave for the weekend that drinking and driving is illegal. They can't remember from one week to the next. I do think this treating airmen like kids is part of the problem. If we treat them like adults then maybe they will act like them. I hold my troops accountable for their actions. This mindset that it is the supervisors fault is the same as blaming the parent. My parents taught me right from wrong. Sometimes I chose to disobey. I was then held accountable for my actions. Now some kid gets in a fight at school and the parents get in trouble to. The town I lived in when I was growing up held us kids accountable for our actions. If you were caught speeding or some other infraction you weren't issued a ticket. You were assigned work detail for the following SaturdaySunday. The amount of hours you performed was directly related to the offense. After losing a few weekends to work details for speeding I slowed down (At least in town). After losing several weekends for a fight in high school I didn't fight anymore. (even if the kid deserved what he got) When I was an airman and forgot to sign a truck out before I used it I came in on the weekend and inspected trucks for 12 hours. I never forgot again.

Silver Fox
07-13-2009, 11:45 PM
Once again, someone pawns off today's problems in the Air Force on the Airmen who have no control over anything.

The bitching should be directed up, not down. If there's a problem with discipline in your unit, that's your fault. Period. Stop bitching about your Airmen and fix them.

imported_WILDJOKER5
07-14-2009, 12:12 AM
Once again, someone pawns off today's problems in the Air Force on the Airmen who have no control over anything.

The bitching should be directed up, not down. If there's a problem with discipline in your unit, that's your fault. Period. Stop bitching about your Airmen and fix them.

By far the most profound statement for this thread.

Silver Fox
07-14-2009, 01:26 AM
Don't you know you have to brief people everytime they leave for the weekend that drinking and driving is illegal. They can't remember from one week to the next. I do think this treating airmen like kids is part of the problem. If we treat them like adults then maybe they will act like them. I hold my troops accountable for their actions. This mindset that it is the supervisors fault is the same as blaming the parent. My parents taught me right from wrong. Sometimes I chose to disobey. I was then held accountable for my actions. Now some kid gets in a fight at school and the parents get in trouble to. The town I lived in when I was growing up held us kids accountable for our actions. If you were caught speeding or some other infraction you weren't issued a ticket. You were assigned work detail for the following SaturdaySunday. The amount of hours you performed was directly related to the offense. After losing a few weekends to work details for speeding I slowed down (At least in town). After losing several weekends for a fight in high school I didn't fight anymore. (even if the kid deserved what he got) When I was an airman and forgot to sign a truck out before I used it I came in on the weekend and inspected trucks for 12 hours. I never forgot again.


I agree with this a lot. If you give your airmen a little respect and treat them like an adult and a human being and not a child or a mindless machine, they'll work for you, respect you, and eventually hell, maybe even like you. Not that it matters much if they like you to you, but it matters to them. You need to show a little charisma and not be an unapproachable dick. They need to know they can talk to you and be comfortable talking to you. If you do this, the real problem troops will fuck themselves. If you have to hold their hand through everything, and you can't turn them around, your wasting your time and theirs. It's a thin line. On the one hand, most of the people we get, ARE kids. They're 17 or 18 or 19 years old, just left the house, had been sucking on mom and dad's financial tits their whole lives. You've got to transition them from teenager to adult, on the other hand: Treating them like kids because they are kids, is self-defeating. You have to treat them as adults, make them accountable for their actions, performance feedbacks do work. It's the one thing in our evaluation system that does. Lay out standards, but not in a dickhead way, conerse with them, talk with them, get to know them, tell them what you expect, ask them what they expect, answer questions, correct misconceptions, ask them what they need. Ask how their lives are. A simple Monday morning, "How was your weekend?" can mean the world to a troop having a bad day. I return the favor and tell them what I did, sure I leave out unnecessary details or details they don't need to know. I'll tell them I went to a bar had a good time, I won't tell them I got shit faced drunk with friends. Your troops need to know you care about them, and their well being, and that you see them as human, but they need to see you as human too and not an emotionless task master.

If they make a mistake, they need to take responsibility for it, if you make a mistake you have to own up to it as well. If you fail them, you need to take responsibility for it and say, "I am sorry, I did not get that done. I will take care of it." And not, "I'll get to it when I fucking get to it." You also got realize mistakes happen, people are human. There's no need to hammer someone for an honest mistake even if it's far reaching. There's a big difference in a mistake and a wilful violation of procedures/orders. If a standard was not set, you can't punish someone for not following a rule they weren't provided with or informed of. You also gotta make sure the chain of command is on the same page, the biggest problems I ever face are ten different decisions from ten different people above me, so I have to sort through this mess and get clarification before I send it out to my troops. Then sometimes, I put out the written policy that everyone in the CoC agreed on, and someone changes it verbally without putting out to anyone. Just walks in and tells someone "we're doing this now" and no one else knows about it.

fufu
07-14-2009, 07:24 AM
I've read through all the posts and responses and can agree with a lot of it. But the one main point I think I can see the most logic in is the leadership aspect affecting the growth of our Amn. I have seen too many NCOs (and not to harp again) that are usually young Staffs not have the "balls" to stand up to their troops let alone their peers.

Those of us under 30 get labeled as "the generation that doesn't accept responsibility", yet all I here you spew is how this is our(young ssgt, tsgt and msgt) fault. Were does YOUR responsibility in the problems that face the AF today?

Silver Fox
07-14-2009, 10:02 AM
I've read through all the posts and responses and can agree with a lot of it. But the one main point I think I can see the most logic in is the leadership aspect affecting the growth of our Amn. I have seen too many NCOs (and not to harp again) that are usually young Staffs not have the "balls" to stand up to their troops let alone their peers.


But those that do get labeled hardballers and notorious pains in the ass by the young Techs and Masters who are just yes manning their superiors to get rank and favor. It's not just the younger staffs.

I mean, when something is seriously wrong and the response you get when addressing the issue is, "Don't rock the boat, just go with it." You have to wonder why you do it anymore. All these Masters demand harsh discipline of the junior enlisted corps, when again I have to say: No one seems to be disciplining the SNCO corps. The problems are not the Airmen and it's not the young staff sergeants. It's a lack of proper training and mentorship from the SNCO Corps. I figure maybe if I point out that organizations are only broken from the top down and never the top up, someone might hear it and act on it. Age has nothing to do with this issue. It varies from individual to individual. I know 23 year old Staffs that have conducted themselves far better than some 38 year old Techs and Masters. I'm not worried about 23 year old staffs trying to sleep with their troops and mine. Can't say the same about some of the more high ranking folks.

technomage1
07-14-2009, 11:58 AM
One thing I have noticed is that there are generational differences between the ranks. Right now, we've got baby boomers, X, and Y. Each does things a bit differently. There are positives and negatives to each way. The key to being an effective leader is getting the most out of your folks - and part of that is what motivates them to do well. I've noticed with Y, for example, that they are very tech savvy - they grew up with IT and live it and breathe it, and don't understand why tech isn't incoprorated more or why they can't text messages at work. I typically let short texts, just like short calls, go but in return I expect that if the job isn't done by the end of the duty day that they will stay and finish it. So far, this hasn't been an issue, I've noticed they're much more flexible about that sort of thing than, say, the baby boomers were. Baby boomers tend to like more structure, they tend to like 7-4, work hard, then go home. There is nothing wrong with either way of doing things as long as the job gets done.

BRUWIN
07-14-2009, 01:13 PM
I'm not worried about 23 year old staffs trying to sleep with their troops and mine. Can't say the same about some of the more high ranking folks.

What a stupid ass statement.

ConfusedAirman
07-14-2009, 01:54 PM
Does anyone else see all the quoting of Postmodern Airman but not his original post? Just wondering what is up.

MACHINE666
07-14-2009, 03:01 PM
its the society we live in. now everyone gets/needs a trophy. everyone now feels entitled that their opinion is "special". not true.

hell i think the airman's creed is full of crap but i'll recite it all day because it doesn't matter what i think.

That's why they have Achievements on X-Box 360 and Trophys on Playstation 3 ~ ! :D

Silver Fox made a statement about higher ups sleeping with some of the younger airmen - I say so long as it's consenual and it's not going to impact the rating process then it's all good. We're all adults people, come on now. There was a Master Sgt in my CSS who married a Senior Airman and she was both the higher ranking (and older) of the two. The world didn't come to an end that day nor did the Air Force for that matter.

:rolleyes:

imported_2T2_1997
07-14-2009, 03:09 PM
Once again, someone pawns off today's problems in the Air Force on the Airmen who have no control over anything.

The bitching should be directed up, not down. If there's a problem with discipline in your unit, that's your fault. Period. Stop bitching about your Airmen and fix them.

That is true to a point. There are plenty of times when frontline supervision should be capable of fixing and turning an airmen.
But...the odds are increasingly stacked against them.

In my opinion the ones dealt the toughest cards are the SSgt's. Some of them are in a lose -lose situation becuase the promotion rates are high. They are made SSgt's in pay...but are never grown into NCO's. Now they're front line supervision with a limited tool box. ALS has become a check box to wear the stripe. If I had a nickel for everytime I heard about how they teach you to write the wrong style of bullets at ALS..I'd have alot of nickels.
Combine that with the constant drum beat of our enlisted force who believes, somewhat justified...that our rank structure has changed drastically. Really..it is said alot...and is somewhat true that today's SSgt is doing what SrA were 10yrs ago....and up it goes....through E6-E7. That has a negative effect on really young airmen. 10-15years ago...as an E1-E4 you treated E5's with alot of respect. A little bit of fear. Maybe it was becuase most of them were older...been in awhile. Now? You have an A1C who has been in 1-2 yrs...and they see a peer at 3yrs with a line for SSgt.
How is that SSgt realistically suppose to be capable of demanding the respect that it takes to be that true front line supervisor. It's the root of alot of problems. You take a 50-50 airmen....does good 50percent of the time....and that other 50 he is a problem. Can a seasoned NCO fix him? He'd damn well better be able to. But that's not who deals with Airmen...it's the newbies. And really...they aren't equipped. So, you drag in the E6's. Now they are as counterproductive as productive. They have more tools...but they have to pull alot of slack for the E5's...and "help" supervise the young guys under the E5's. So, they lose time growing those E5's. And at the same time they bang their head against the wall because they are seeing E5's who are doing less in the leader role than they were doing. That runs up the chain to SNCO's who alot of times blame the world on "frontline supervision". When in alot of cases ...when they were frontline supervisor's....they system was working better...and had a ton of more people.

I don't have a fix.....except maybe refocusing how we view the E4-E6 rank...which is almost already happening. The thing that is not working is for the SNCO's sitting back after something happens and blaming front line supervision. They should ....already have painfully come to the conclusion that "SSgt been in 4yrs" probably doesn't have the experience to deal with a trouble airmen. That's a fact. You can be a born leader, but even Vince Lombardi would need some seasoning to serve as a leader in the military environment.

BENDER56
07-14-2009, 03:48 PM
Does anyone else see all the quoting of Postmodern Airman but not his original post? Just wondering what is up.

My guess was either he deleted his original post(s) or people are quoting him from a separate thread (if that can be done) because he's contradticting himself on different threads.

Rev Mike Large
07-14-2009, 05:19 PM
What a stupid ass statement.

:D That is hilarious!

Gunner007
07-14-2009, 06:13 PM
When I was coming up in the Airman ranks I would have never thought to question an order. If I was told to do something I did it. If I had a problem with something I was told then I tried my best to be respectful. (Case in point while replacing an engine I was told I could not go home til it was done. No problem I was almost done anyway. However I was then told I could not take a break. Since it was over 100 degrees I respectfully requested to take long enough to refill my water bottle. When that was shot down I went to the TSgt and made my request.) If I was told to work late or stay till 4 on a friday I did it. I didn't ask if I could leave early because there was "Nothing going on".

I haven't seen much of this in my new shop but I have seen it all over the place. Airmen questioning what they are told by the supervisor or NCOIC. Complaining that they have to do something when someone else doesn't. Recently I told an airman who was walking through the BX parking lot with his hat in his hand while talking on his cell phone to put his hat on. I was nice about it and said something along the lines of "Hey you might want to think about putting that hat on." He put it on. But as I was walking ahead of him I guess he thought I was out of earshot and started complaining to whoever he was on the phone with that I had made him put his hat on and that he was close to the door anyway and I should have minded my own business. At this point I let him know that I was not hard of hearing and that I could hear him.

Another time I called an airman and let them know that they were going to need to take care of driving some people to the airport prior to deployment. This was going to happen on a Saturday. The airman informed me that I could not make him work on a Saturday. I quickly repaired that situation.

Has anyone else noticed a downward trend in the airmen of today?

As most of the folks have said, the belly aching occured back when i was an Amn also. The big difference i think is that we KNEW better than to complain to a NCO about anything. NCO's were distanced from us, at least E-5 and above were. SrA and Bucks organized, administered, and led details, they didnt do them! So when we had a gripe it was typically to the E-4 in charge of the detail.

Use to be that SNCO's managed, usually from the golf course, and the Techs really ran everything. If your stuff wasnt right, an E-4 would jump your shit and square you away because he knew if he didnt and a SNCO saw it then his ass was on the carpet. Now the E-4 & E-5's dont get called to task the way they use too when one of their folks messed up. So in turn if the SNCO is willing to just bitch you out for it and not bother the E-5 or E-6 then thats just less he has to concern himself with. That may be a by product of do more with less and this tier is so busy they are relieved not to have to worry about Amn snuffys pockets? Not really sure?

Personally, if i give someone a task and they have a question or concern i listen. If they have a whiney cry baby complaint i give them an even crappier detail or double the amount of work and cut the amount of time. THen i counsel them that if they think things are bad and want to complain things can always gets worse and i can really give them a reason to complain!

When the guy at the BX mouthed off over the phone he obviously knew or suspected you could hear him and in a passive aggressive way was letting you know what he thought of you. You should have jacked his ass up and held him until his Shirt showed up while reading him the riot act about disrespecting an NCO and conduct unbecoming, both grounds for Article 15's!

Its not that Amn are more whiney today its that there is less seperation between them and the E-5 & E-6 tier of NCO. The Tech or Staff is just close enough to the grumbling to actually hear it now.

If your at a flying base and your troop wants to piss and moan, send them to wash rack to help the flying unit clean a plane. If they dont like taking out trash they really wont like the burning sensation aircraft cleaner has on bare skin! If they dont like weeds and seeds call the flying unit and send them down to the hangar to clean the bird shit off the tops of the hangar queens with a bucket and brush! Find the nastiest details you can find and hold them in your tricks bag and when they bitch about the little stuff, give them a reason to complain! The next time they will keep their mouth shut!

Shaken1976
07-14-2009, 07:14 PM
I have noticed that a lot of the separation between the NCO's and Airmen has disappeared. I think a lot of that has to do with how early people are making staff. One day they are partying with their friend and the next they are supposed to be the guys supervisor. But the partying doesn't stop. The A1C and the the Staff now hang out after work and party at each others house. I think it is hard to respect someone who the night before was passed out on your couch. Or maybe these guys feel that the NCO is their friend and they can bitch and moan.

A few months ago a SrA invited me to his promotion party. He had just made BTZ. I politely declined and he seemed offended. I for one don't want to be held accountable for what might happen at the party. I also don't feel I should be getting wasted in front of my troops. It just doesn't feel right to me. I have known other NCO's who attend these parties or even host them. Now that is not to say that I would never go to an Airman's house or invite them to mine. I am all about inviting the Airmen over on Thanksgiving or Christmas iif I am in town. I have babysat for airmen who work in other shops in my squadron and my daughters best friend was the son of an airman. But I think as NCO's we still have to remain professional even off duty. We have to show the airmen that we are still the boss no matter what the situation.

I am not a big party goer because I don't want to feel responsible if something happens. If A1C Smith leaves the party with no one seeing him and gets a DUI or into some other kind of trouble then I can be held responsible. That is not something I am comfortable with. I will pick anybody up who needs a ride home. I will make sure they get home safely. But once they are there I feel my responsibilty ends.

Gunner007
07-14-2009, 08:17 PM
That's why they have Achievements on X-Box 360 and Trophys on Playstation 3 ~ ! :D

Silver Fox made a statement about higher ups sleeping with some of the younger airmen - I say so long as it's consenual and it's not going to impact the rating process then it's all good. We're all adults people, come on now. There was a Master Sgt in my CSS who married a Senior Airman and she was both the higher ranking (and older) of the two. The world didn't come to an end that day nor did the Air Force for that matter.

:rolleyes:

But when i was back filling a squadron and deployed with them to PSAB back in the day. Another load crew chief and his 2 (wo)man had a thing going. Now said load crew chief was also married... Apparently all the other load toads knew about this little thing but me, being an outsider i didnt know anyone or anything that was going on in this unit until the deployment.

They were also on the same crew i should add. So he would dictate all the jobs and drop all of us off out in the heat and drive off to go park and play with her. It didnt take me long to figure out why the truck was always gone and we never had a ride back to the supply room for parts and supplies and it was a damn long walk!

I pulled the guy aside. At the time he was a Staff and I a SrA. I matter of factly told him i knew what they were doing and didnt care so long as he started doing his share of the work on the line and stopped leaving us hanging out to dry in the heat. He tried playing it off and lying to my face about it. A few days later and he was right back to his old games of running off with the truck to play grab ass.
-----So i up chanelled it.

Now here is what the problem is with all the quotes on leadership on this thread. Your single, absolutely most important commodity as a USAF member but most importantly as a NCO is CREDIBILITY! See i was the outsider, i didnt have much time with that unit and had little credibility in the eyes of the SNCO's running the flight. They knew i was a hard worker and knew my job, that was evident but in the end they just shuffled his crew to another shift away from me and avoided the issue. They didnt drop a hammer on him and she was his ratee, his crew member! Instead they gave him the benefit of the doubt because they didnt know me.

Be the resident expert at your job! Be the one the higher ups looks to when they need an answer. Then when something is messed up and you push the issue you have the credibility and are likely to be taken more serious. Bitch about everything and even if you have credibility to begin with you will slowly lose it as people see you as someone who cant be trusted to make the right decisions. Choose your battle, your credibility is like a bank account so to speak and you have to balance your budget. You spend all your credibility and its gone, then you have to work hard to build it back up. So pick your battles and spend wisely!

eichampt1
07-14-2009, 08:25 PM
What a stupid ass statement.

You are correct! He has yet to make sense in any of his posts. He spends most of his duty day in this forum either berating SNCO's/officers or bragging about how much of a stud he is. He's nothing but a useless tool.

Silver Fox
07-14-2009, 11:57 PM
What a stupid ass statement.

It was a generalization, but that's currently one of the problems being dealt with around here. Not once, by the way. Not twice. Not even three times. Four? Close. FIVE seperate occasions.

Silver Fox
07-14-2009, 11:58 PM
You are correct! He has yet to make sense in any of his posts. He spends most of his duty day in this forum either berating SNCO's/officers or bragging about how much of a stud he is. He's nothing but a useless tool.

And you have contributed nothing to any conversation other than your tiresome crusade to get me to shut up. Which won't happen. You also have problems reading.

Silver Fox
07-15-2009, 12:00 AM
Silver Fox made a statement about higher ups sleeping with some of the younger airmen - I say so long as it's consenual and it's not going to impact the rating process then it's all good. We're all adults people, come on now. There was a Master Sgt in my CSS who married a Senior Airman and she was both the higher ranking (and older) of the two. The world didn't come to an end that day nor did the Air Force for that matter.

:rolleyes:


I think you missed the part where I said THEIR troops, and also, if their higher ranking NCOs, my troops ARE their troops.

THIS IS A PROBLEM. :rolleyes:

BRUWIN
07-15-2009, 01:41 AM
It was a generalization, but that's currently one of the problems being dealt with around here. Not once, by the way. Not twice. Not even three times. Four? Close. FIVE seperate occasions.

Involving one SNCO or five different ones? Any base can have one bad apple...but I have a hard time buying into the story that 5 different SNCOs from a SF squadron are sleeping with their subordinates.

Silver Fox
07-15-2009, 01:50 AM
Involving one SNCO or five different ones? Any base can have one bad apple...but I have a hard time buying into the story that 5 different SNCOs from a SF squadron are sleeping with their subordinates.

We had one who never did, but kept bringing it up and got pegged for harassment.

An E-7 that slept with an E-3, an E-6 that slept with an E-3 (not a SNCO by definition but a senior E-6.... just as bad...), , an E-9 with an E-5.... and two E-7's that slept wiht E-4's.

Wouldn't have a problem with some of those, but they were all in the chain.

Only one of those got in trouble, and that was the one who never actually slept with his troop because she complained.

imported_LOAL-D
07-15-2009, 01:56 AM
We had one who never did, but kept bringing it up and got pegged for harassment.

An E-7 that slept with an E-3, an E-6 that slept with an E-3 (not a SNCO by definition but a senior E-6.... just as bad...), , an E-9 with an E-5.... and two E-7's that slept wiht E-4's.

Wouldn't have a problem with some of those, but they were all in the chain.

Only one of those got in trouble, and that was the one who never actually slept with his troop because she complained.

Wow! Whole lotta love going on! Were you on detached duty to the USS Momsen? :eek:

Silver Fox
07-15-2009, 02:02 AM
Wow! Whole lotta love going on! Were you on detached duty to the USS Momsen? :eek:

Hahahaha I wish. No, I think we just got unlucky and had a lot of dirt bags at the same time.

I can say thankfully, that most are retired or gone and things are shaping up around here.

BRUWIN
07-15-2009, 02:13 AM
We had one who never did, but kept bringing it up and got pegged for harassment.

An E-7 that slept with an E-3, an E-6 that slept with an E-3 (not a SNCO by definition but a senior E-6.... just as bad...), , an E-9 with an E-5.... and two E-7's that slept wiht E-4's.

Wouldn't have a problem with some of those, but they were all in the chain.

Only one of those got in trouble, and that was the one who never actually slept with his troop because she complained.

Jeesus....didn't anybody speak up? I mean c'mon....if other people were aware and never said anything than it's obvious to me that those SNCOs aren't the only ones screwing things up. And if people did speak up than the responsibility also lies with one other person....the CC.

Silver Fox
07-15-2009, 02:22 AM
Someone should have, no doubt. But fear of retaliation, that both parties would simply deny it, people not wanting to screw over their friends, supervisors, subordinates, etc. all contributed to the problem. My troop had come to me with the issue and sought advice, I asked her if she'd told him it was inappropriate and she said she'd asked him to stop several times. Knowing the situation I advised her to go to MEO, and so she did. I knew about the E-9 and the E-5, but didn't really know what to do. What do you do when your chief is sleeping with someone? Everyone is in the chief's chain. Plus the E-5 was a friend. I admit, not wanting to tackle a battle with an E-9, and not wanting to screw over a friend, I said nothing. Several of those were deployment flings, where the occurences happened over seas, and then both parties came home to their wives/husbands/etc. and resumed normal, or atleast started keeping it quiet. One of the individuals last I heard may be getting hemmed up for it as someone up channel caught wind of it.

Believe it or not, this is a pretty prevalent problem in SF for some reason. Honestly, it happened everywhere I've been for the most part. I don't know if it's something they put in the water in tech school, the ops tempo/stress or whatever.... but it seems like if there's an SF squadron, somebody is fucking someone in their chain.

Combat correspondent
07-15-2009, 07:53 PM
When I was a boot, I had a female friend who was also a newbie. She was a single mom and a bit older than most junior troops. Anyways, this MSgt used to hit on her all the time - in public and private. She told me about it and complained over a few beers one night and I told her to confront him about it. She didn't. She was worried about her career, the image, the Corps, yatta yatta yatta. One day I was walking by the break room and saw him corer her and grope her a bit, she tried to squeeze by him and he did it again. I walked in and demanded to know what was going on. He told me to mind my own business and get back to work. I stuck it out and he finally sent her back to work so he could "reprimand" me. I told him right then there that he was a genuine POS and I was not intimidated by him in the least bit. Furthermore, I informed him that unless he stayed the hell away from her, I'd have his rear end in a sling for the sexhar. He backed off. I won the battle.

She didn't do crap but benefit from my efforts.

The story continued.... she went on to her next assignment and through a chain of events he became my supervisor. He made my life a living hell until I got orders.

As I said, I won that battle but DEFINITELY lost the war!

Just figured I'd share the old story...

DHarris75
07-15-2009, 10:58 PM
I agree with this a lot. If you give your airmen a little respect and treat them like an adult and a human being and not a child or a mindless machine, they'll work for you, respect you, and eventually hell, maybe even like you. Not that it matters much if they like you to you, but it matters to them. You need to show a little charisma and not be an unapproachable dick. They need to know they can talk to you and be comfortable talking to you. If you do this, the real problem troops will fuck themselves. If you have to hold their hand through everything, and you can't turn them around, your wasting your time and theirs. It's a thin line. On the one hand, most of the people we get, ARE kids. They're 17 or 18 or 19 years old, just left the house, had been sucking on mom and dad's financial tits their whole lives. You've got to transition them from teenager to adult, on the other hand: Treating them like kids because they are kids, is self-defeating. You have to treat them as adults, make them accountable for their actions, performance feedbacks do work. It's the one thing in our evaluation system that does. Lay out standards, but not in a dickhead way, conerse with them, talk with them, get to know them, tell them what you expect, ask them what they expect, answer questions, correct misconceptions, ask them what they need. Ask how their lives are. A simple Monday morning, "How was your weekend?" can mean the world to a troop having a bad day. I return the favor and tell them what I did, sure I leave out unnecessary details or details they don't need to know. I'll tell them I went to a bar had a good time, I won't tell them I got shit faced drunk with friends. Your troops need to know you care about them, and their well being, and that you see them as human, but they need to see you as human too and not an emotionless task master.

If they make a mistake, they need to take responsibility for it, if you make a mistake you have to own up to it as well. If you fail them, you need to take responsibility for it and say, "I am sorry, I did not get that done. I will take care of it." And not, "I'll get to it when I fucking get to it." You also got realize mistakes happen, people are human. There's no need to hammer someone for an honest mistake even if it's far reaching. There's a big difference in a mistake and a wilful violation of procedures/orders. If a standard was not set, you can't punish someone for not following a rule they weren't provided with or informed of. You also gotta make sure the chain of command is on the same page, the biggest problems I ever face are ten different decisions from ten different people above me, so I have to sort through this mess and get clarification before I send it out to my troops. Then sometimes, I put out the written policy that everyone in the CoC agreed on, and someone changes it verbally without putting out to anyone. Just walks in and tells someone "we're doing this now" and no one else knows about it.

Very good post. Spot on. Actually made me evaluate myself and think of things I could do better.

I agree with a lot of what has been written. I think it's a fine line and the problems that we have may not be that much diff than the problems of 15-20 years ago. But I do think the rank structure has changed. When I have a 5 year SSgt come to me with demands like we are the same...I get a little irritated. I put in 15 years to get where I am at.

I am in Australia now and they still have a strict seperation. There is an O-club, a Sgts Mess (takes them a long time to get to Sgt) and an Amn's Mess. Was talking to a chap last night at the Sgts Mess and he says he doesn't want their young bucks in there. It took him 20 years to be able to belly up to the bar at the Sgts mess and he feels he has earned that right. For us, their SrNCO is like our E-6s...so we are allowed to go in there. But they feel you have to have that seperation. Their Amn look to the day when they earn that right. It sounds small and petty, but it keeps that line there.

When I was an Amn, and I have some vivid memories of this, we had 2 Techs and 1 MSgt in our shop. Our 2 Techs were desk jockeys, but were also experts in the job. They would come out and just kind of walk around watching the work...and as an Amn, you felt nervous when they watched you. You didn't want to disappoint them. The Staffs even would kind of bow up a bit and put on their best show. The MSgt - forget about it. He was busy managing the flight and worked with the sq level folks. The Techs ran the shop.

Now - MSgts are in the weeds on stuff, Techs are doing the work alongside the Staffs and Amn. Amn talk to Techs just like they talk to Staffs...and more and more are talking to MSgts like "buddies". I have to talk to a Staff Sgt today because he had a conversation with our Capt yesterday and the SSgt did not once say sir - it was yeah, yeah...and then he just walked away. Didn't even have a proper closing to the conversation like "thank you sir" or "no problem sir". Just walked away. And this is a Capt.

Now, as a TSgt, maybe I don't hold as much awe toward a capt as I use to. But he is still SIR to me. And I am going to call him sir, people jr to me better damn well call him sir.

So how to fix it? I don't think the fault resides with the jr NCOs. To fufu - you always ask what responsiblity am I willing to accept? I'd say very little. If you ask my troops, they would tell you I am (in their words) "old school". One Amn said I come across as a little brash and strict - but fair and approachable. But I don't take any crap. I think the fault resides in the system. I still think we rush our folks through the E-4 rank - which use to be where we learned so much about our roles. You knew your job to a point, you were comfortable doing what you did, and you were ready to lead details and a couple of Amn...and you had to time to stew and grow from that. Not anymore.

So it is a mentorship issue to a point. How do we give young Staffs the tools they need to do a good job, keep the NCO line of seperation from the Amn, and do it at an accelerated pace?

It is not rocket science - but it's not something that can be just taught or read in a book. It's an eperience thing. It's trial and error. But you use to learn by trial with a much smaller scope of responsibility and you had a 7-10 year Staff to back you up.

I don't think the problem is cataclysmic. I don't think it's so big that it will pull apart the very fabric of the military. But we need to bring back that seperation between the teirs. RHIP - now those words don't have as much meaning anymore...but it use to be used a lot. Now an Amn thinks he should be able to do the same things as a MSgt.

But is it so much diff than before? I was a troubled Amn, as were a few of my pals. But the diff was we were genuinely afraid of our chain of command. It wasn't a deterrent, we'd still screw up. But we hated to face the music...would get the butterflies in the stomach, the dry mouth, before going to see the TSgt about my "party" the night before or whatever the days adventures were. Now, it seems like Amn I talk to about stuff like that are desensitized about talking to a TSgt. They have to go see a Senior MSgt now to have any fear. So I don't think the Amn have changed all that much - Amn still do Amn things that all 18-22 year olds do. But the diff is how they view their leadership. The fear (fear is not the best word here...maybe awe...respect...something along those lines) is not there - and I think part of that is because the leadership is too close to the same level now.

Gunner007
07-16-2009, 03:16 AM
I have noticed that a lot of the separation between the NCO's and Airmen has disappeared. I think a lot of that has to do with how early people are making staff. One day they are partying with their friend and the next they are supposed to be the guys supervisor. But the partying doesn't stop. The A1C and the the Staff now hang out after work and party at each others house. I think it is hard to respect someone who the night before was passed out on your couch. Or maybe these guys feel that the NCO is their friend and they can bitch and moan.

A few months ago a SrA invited me to his promotion party. He had just made BTZ. I politely declined and he seemed offended. I for one don't want to be held accountable for what might happen at the party. I also don't feel I should be getting wasted in front of my troops. It just doesn't feel right to me. I have known other NCO's who attend these parties or even host them. Now that is not to say that I would never go to an Airman's house or invite them to mine. I am all about inviting the Airmen over on Thanksgiving or Christmas iif I am in town. I have babysat for airmen who work in other shops in my squadron and my daughters best friend was the son of an airman. But I think as NCO's we still have to remain professional even off duty. We have to show the airmen that we are still the boss no matter what the situation.

I am not a big party goer because I don't want to feel responsible if something happens. If A1C Smith leaves the party with no one seeing him and gets a DUI or into some other kind of trouble then I can be held responsible. That is not something I am comfortable with. I will pick anybody up who needs a ride home. I will make sure they get home safely. But once they are there I feel my responsibilty ends.

Honestly, in this type of case, i probably would have made a quick token appearance to give the deserved congratulations and left after maybe 30 minutes. This way you guy knows the event was important to you and that you support their successes and are not just there in their face when they mess up.

Your Amn kids are like your real life kids, youhave to pat them on the head and tell them they did a good job and make them feel as though you genuinely care, regardless of your personal feelings sometimes. A good leader should hold the professional respect of his men, you are correct in saying they shouldnt see you shit faced, but next time maybe just drop in for a half hour, let the guy know your proud of his accomplishment and that the event matters to you.

I would be honest with the Amn. If your invited, tell the person up front that you have reservations about being the ranking person at an Amn's party so you wont be able to stay long but since it is an important accomplishment you will stop by for a few minutes. I've done this many times and believe it or not the Amn do understand the fact your the boss and have a responsibility and they probably dont want you there all night anyway if your the type of NCO who maintains a professional relationship because they might be worried someone will do something dumb and you will take them to task on it. But say hi, shake some hands, maybe have A, singular form, beer or coke if you rather, make some small talk and then i would talk it up to the other Amn as a very important achievement and something they should all be striving for.

Not saying you were wrong, but maybe offering another POV you may find valuable in the future.

BOSS302
05-19-2013, 01:07 AM
Airmen today spend too much time on Facebook while at work.

Capt Alfredo
05-19-2013, 01:50 AM
Airmen today spend too much time on Facebook while at work.

Sounds like NCOs need to do their jobs and instill discipline.

FLAPS, USAF (ret)
05-19-2013, 02:17 AM
Airmen today spend too much time on Facebook while at work.

So, as a TSgt you've witnessed this a lot? Did you make them stop spending so much time on FB?

KellyinAvon
05-19-2013, 02:20 AM
Airmen today spend too much time on Facebook while at work.

Necro-posting is Tak and Bob's turf, ya know.

KellyinAvon
05-19-2013, 02:32 AM
Correction.

Bob necro-posts.
Tak zombie-posts.
Zombies??
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BOSS302
05-19-2013, 02:37 AM
Necro-posting is Tak and Bob's turf, ya know.

Bob's turf is "so-called photo IDs".

RobotChicken
05-19-2013, 04:09 AM
Bob hasn't seen "turf" in years...

:lol:llama 'Autumn' has!!:clock

Rusty Jones
05-19-2013, 03:55 PM
Sounds like NCOs need to do their jobs and instill discipline.

Those of us with day jobs are spending too much time on MTF at work. And probably facebook too.

And goodluck with blocking facebook on the network. People will just look at it on their smartphones now.

Capt Alfredo
05-19-2013, 06:46 PM
Those of us with day jobs are spending too much time on MTF at work. And probably facebook too.

And goodluck with blocking facebook on the network. People will just look at it on their smartphones now.

When I was at an AFCENT unit it was blocked. And phones aren't allowed in the SCIF, so it wasn't a problem for intel people. That said, people can waste time doing anything, so blocking one specific site won't help much without human intervention.

JD2780
05-19-2013, 09:51 PM
Sounds like NCOs need to do their jobs and instill discipline.

Sounds like O's need to LET NCOs do their jobs. PT a kid to exhaustion in the compound was a great corrective tool often used by certain AFSCs. However, you can't even yell at an Airman today without him going and complaining up the chain and then the good NCO is getting chewed for doing his job. It's call micromanaging and it's what's been going on for a while now.

Capt Alfredo
05-19-2013, 11:23 PM
Sounds like O's need to LET NCOs do their jobs. PT a kid to exhaustion in the compound was a great corrective tool often used by certain AFSCs. However, you can't even yell at an Airman today without him going and complaining up the chain and then the good NCO is getting chewed for doing his job. It's call micromanaging and it's what's been going on for a while now.

Sounds like someone should have sacked up and done the right thing.

RobotChicken
05-20-2013, 03:53 AM
:deadhorse AF 'Incorporated' is your future! :loco

JD2780
05-20-2013, 10:38 AM
Sounds like someone should have sacked up and done the right thing.

Somebody did. Then gets told that's not how to handle it. Even in ALS they tell you not to smoke airmen. It's really said how th AF doesn't allow us to act like a military. Thank goodness when on an Army post you can do more.

Drackore
05-20-2013, 11:31 AM
NCOs don't get to punish, only discipline. The only form of discipline we have at our disposal is paper. No one takes paper seriously until it gets to the sq CC level. A typical SrA and below has an NCO supervisor, NCOIC, NCO superintendant, flight CC, then a SMSgt or Chief before it gets to the unit CC. That's a lot of ass chewings and paper that need to be done before any real "motiviation" can be delivered.

Even verbals are weak these days. Gotta watch everything you say or insinuate and how you say it. Too loud, too rough, to personal - it's all for naught.

Then there is the Catch-22. My "leadership" (quoted because they really don't lead...they fucking suck) says I am "too nice" and I go to bat for my people too much. They don't see or hear how I handle things. Most of my discipline problems stay in my shop. I don't need to do LOCs and the like for every single infraction. Someone screws up, we handle it locally and 99% of the time it doesn't repeat. So you would think at this point that my "leadership" would listen to me when I have to go to bat for someone. Nope. There is a quota system on that...and apparently I used it all up trying to get a firewall-5 troop to extend a DEROS or an Amn to get a PCS medal even though he had an EPR markdown four years ago.

And that "leadership" I speak of - is officers. It was a problem at my last assignment too.

So....deductive logic:

If something is wrong with Amn today,
And Officers are preventing NCOs from effectively leading...
Therefore it is Officers that are wrong with Amn today.

Rusty Jones
05-20-2013, 11:53 AM
The effectiveness of NCOs as leaders is slowly slipping away as well. There are so many eggshells that they have to walk on, that many would simply rather not deal with it.

How many times have you had this conversation:

"Remember what I told you to do this morning? Did it get done?"

"Chief said I don't have to do it!"

Eventually, this happens enough times that you begin to think, "why bother?"

I remember as berthing PO for the week, I placed one of my PO2's in charge of the day-to-day cleaning, while I took care of the external things - getting lights replaced, putting in jobs for repairs, etc. So, while I'm in there, the PO2 tells a Seaman to wipe down the shower curtains. The Seaman looks up at me, as if he thinks that the PO2 needs my approval to tell him to go do that.

Of course, I had to tell him - what the fuck are you looking at me for? Didn't that Second Class just tell you to go do something?

THIS is something that I never saw when I first came in. There is nothing more wrong with todays young troops than those of yesterday. I bitched about doing the dirty work, and I tried to get out of it; just like the young guys do today.

The only difference is, when you bitched back then, nobody listened or cared. Bitch all you want, but you'd better be able to bitch and work at the same time. And your boss's boss wasn't there to save you. There was no way out back then. But now? They have a way out. That doesn't make the young people coming in any different. That simply makes the leadership that they're receiving different.

BOSS302
05-20-2013, 12:05 PM
The effectiveness of NCOs as leaders is slowly slipping away as well. There are so many eggshells that they have to walk on, that many would simply rather not deal with it.

How many times have you had this conversation:

"Remember what I told you to do this morning? Did it get done?"

"Chief said I don't have to do it!"

Eventually, this happens enough times that you begin to think, "why bother?"

I remember as berthing PO for the week, I placed one of my PO2's in charge of the day-to-day cleaning, while I took care of the external things - getting lights replaced, putting in jobs for repairs, etc. So, while I'm in there, the PO2 tells a Seaman to wipe down the shower curtains. The Seaman looks up at me, as if he thinks that the PO2 needs my approval to tell him to go do that.

Of course, I had to tell him - what the fuck are you looking at me for? Didn't that Second Class just tell you to go do something?

THIS is something that I never saw when I first came in. There is nothing more wrong with todays young troops than those of yesterday. I bitched about doing the dirty work, and I tried to get out of it; just like the young guys do today.

The only difference is, when you bitched back then, nobody listened or cared. Bitch all you want, but you'd better be able to bitch and work at the same time. And your boss's boss wasn't there to save you. There was no way out back then. But now? They have a way out. That doesn't make the young people coming in any different. That simply makes the leadership that they're receiving different.

In Napoleon's "Grand Army", only the "Old Guard" was allowed to show open discontent in the presence of superior officers and Napoleon himself. Other units were punished severely for such back talk.

JD2780
05-20-2013, 12:05 PM
In Napoleon's "Grand Army", only the "Old Guard" was allowed to show open discontent in the presence of superior officers and Napoleon himself. Other units were punished severely for such back talk.

Show all the discontent you want, just do as your told while showing your frowny face.

BOSS302
05-20-2013, 12:13 PM
Show all the discontent you want, just do as your told while showing your frowny face.

What if you told an airman to go paint a fence, and that airman painted the fence like a champion...all the while giving you the finger with their other hand?

JD2780
05-20-2013, 12:16 PM
What if you told an airman to go paint a fence, and that airman painted the fence like a champion...all the while giving you the finger with their other hand?

Then I will show my discontent by making him to PT until he couldn't lift his finger. There is a difference between showing discontent being down in disrespectful/insubordinate.

BOSS302
05-20-2013, 12:23 PM
Then I will show my discontent by making him to PT until he couldn't lift his finger. There is a difference between showing discontent being down in disrespectful/insubordinate.

What if he was on a profile?

BOSS302
06-03-2013, 04:46 AM
The Air Force has always been an ever-changing branch of the military. Whereas the Army pretty much stays the same. That is, an E7 or E8 will tear your ass up if you screw up or don't do your job

This downward spiral with the Air Force has pretty much been the trend since Desert Storm ended. Before then, most enlisted members were from poor or blue-collar backgrounds and didn't have much of a problem putting a foot in someone's ass. There has been an upward trend of middle and upper-middle class suburbanites joining since then and many of them are not as hard of people by nature to begin with. In addition the Generation Y'ers that have joined since the early 2000's generally grew up more coddled and entitled, feeling it their need to question authority or go crying to someone higher.

And of course at the same time, SSgt pretty much became a freebie and I think for the past 4-5 years, so has TSgt. TSgt's were mostly people at or near middle age when I first came in, now many are not even 30 years old. Junior NCO's should have the same muscle now as then, but there's now just as many of them as there are Airmen!

Technical Sergeant is not at all a "Freebie". I believe you made the same claim in the past about Master Sergeant and you were corrected on that as well.

jondstewart
06-03-2013, 04:47 AM
The Air Force has always been an ever-changing branch of the military. Whereas the Army pretty much stays the same. That is, an E7 or E8 will tear your ass up if you screw up or don't do your job

This downward spiral with the Air Force has pretty much been the trend since Desert Storm ended. Before then, most enlisted members were from poor or blue-collar backgrounds and didn't have much of a problem putting a foot in someone's ass. There has been an upward trend of middle and upper-middle class suburbanites joining since then and many of them are not as hard of people by nature to begin with. In addition the Generation Y'ers that have joined since the early 2000's generally grew up more coddled and entitled, feeling it their need to question authority or go crying to someone higher.

And of course at the same time, SSgt pretty much became a freebie and I think for the past 4-5 years, so has TSgt. TSgt's were mostly people at or near middle age when I first came in, now many are not even 30 years old. Junior NCO's should have the same muscle now as then, but there's now just as many of them as there are Airmen!

BOSS302
06-03-2013, 04:56 AM
The Air Force has always been an ever-changing branch of the military. Whereas the Army pretty much stays the same. That is, an E7 or E8 will tear your ass up if you screw up or don't do your job

This downward spiral with the Air Force has pretty much been the trend since Desert Storm ended. Before then, most enlisted members were from poor or blue-collar backgrounds and didn't have much of a problem putting a foot in someone's ass. There has been an upward trend of middle and upper-middle class suburbanites joining since then and many of them are not as hard of people by nature to begin with. In addition the Generation Y'ers that have joined since the early 2000's generally grew up more coddled and entitled, feeling it their need to question authority or go crying to someone higher.

And of course at the same time, SSgt pretty much became a freebie and I think for the past 4-5 years, so has TSgt. TSgt's were mostly people at or near middle age when I first came in, now many are not even 30 years old. Junior NCO's should have the same muscle now as then, but there's now just as many of them as there are Airmen!

Technical Sergeant is not at all a "Freebie". I believe you made the same claim in the past about Master Sergeant and you were corrected on that as well.

VFFTSGT
06-03-2013, 06:37 AM
Technical Sergeant is not at all a "Freebie". I believe you made the same claim in the past about Master Sergeant and you were corrected on that as well.

I think in a sense it is. I mean, you do have to study some if you want it sooner than later... But, with everyone getting a 5...it's a pretty level playing ground between the superior and average performers.

BOSS302
06-03-2013, 09:01 AM
I think in a sense it is. I mean, you do have to study some if you want it sooner than later... But, with everyone getting a 5...it's a pretty level playing ground between the superior and average performers.

Then it's not a "Freebie." In 2012, the promotion rate was 22.77%; 2011, 24.94%. Going back years, it looks more like this:

10E6 20.85%

09E6 20.78%

08E6 18.55%

07E6 18.38%

06E6 16.76%

So if you mean to say that there was a gradual upward trend culminating in a high of almost 25% before correcting and dropping back down to 22% (and should drop for the next few years to come)....then yes, you would be right.

Otherwise, to imply that less than a quarter of eligible people making the cut-off for E6 - and in some cases, less than twenty percent - is a "Freebie" is incorrect and misleading.

VFFTSGT
06-03-2013, 04:12 PM
Then it's not a "Freebie." In 2012, the promotion rate was 22.77%; 2011, 24.94%. Going back years, it looks more like this:

10E6 20.85%

09E6 20.78%

08E6 18.55%

07E6 18.38%

06E6 16.76%

So if you mean to say that there was a gradual upward trend culminating in a high of almost 25% before correcting and dropping back down to 22% (and should drop for the next few years to come)....then yes, you would be right.

Otherwise, to imply that less than a quarter of eligible people making the cut-off for E6 - and in some cases, less than twenty percent - is a "Freebie" is incorrect and misleading.

Or you can look the statistics like...within 4-5 years you are pretty much going to get it, whether you are superior or a slacker.

RetC141BFCC
06-03-2013, 06:31 PM
One thing I have noticed is that there are generational differences between the ranks. Right now, we've got baby boomers, X, and Y. Each does things a bit differently. There are positives and negatives to each way. The key to being an effective leader is getting the most out of your folks - and part of that is what motivates them to do well. I've noticed with Y, for example, that they are very tech savvy - they grew up with IT and live it and breathe it, and don't understand why tech isn't incoprorated more or why they can't text messages at work. I typically let short texts, just like short calls, go but in return I expect that if the job isn't done by the end of the duty day that they will stay and finish it. So far, this hasn't been an issue, I've noticed they're much more flexible about that sort of thing than, say, the baby boomers were. Baby boomers tend to like more structure, they tend to like 7-4, work hard, then go home. There is nothing wrong with either way of doing things as long as the job gets done.

You hit the nail on the head with this one. I am a baby boomer work hard play harder. In my new job I work as a lead mechanic for a airline. Part of my lead training was a class on generations. It was the diff between generations and how we were raised and think. The problem is giving SSgt to someone not old enough to drink. I am from the generation of beer cans in the dorm at Tech School, a smoking brake room. I started smoking in basic. If you smoked you got to hang out and the butt can and bullshit if you did not you stood at parade rest. Everyone I knew started smoking in basic

RobotChicken
06-03-2013, 06:57 PM
:spy Know that you mention it; Can't ever remember a fight of any kind, arguments yea...bigtime but not to the point the fist,knives came out, and hugs all around when things cooled down; then all's well, that was the days of Real Shipmates!!

JD2780
06-03-2013, 07:02 PM
You hit the nail on the head with this one. I am a baby boomer work hard play harder. In my new job I work as a lead mechanic for a airline. Part of my lead training was a class on generations. It was the diff between generations and how we were raised and think. The problem is giving SSgt to someone not old enough to drink. I am from the generation of beer cans in the dorm at Tech School, a smoking brake room. I started smoking in basic. If you smoked you got to hang out and the butt can and bullshit if you did not you stood at parade rest. Everyone I knew started smoking in basic

Also the environment of the AF. Freaking out about the smallest things. How many fights did dudes get in back in the day? Nowadays it's a death sentence for certain folks. (Not the fight, but the punishment)