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imported_squeezeandcrush777
07-09-2009, 01:36 AM
I was watching a documentary about the Rangers, and i found that other branches can go to this school, as did the Airman that just died during CCT training. Well i would like to know how this works. I was told that when you pass ranger school, you get a tab, but you stay in your branch, so whats the point of other branches troops doing this? does the same thing apply to Seals training?

Mi11er
07-09-2009, 04:00 AM
Yes you can go to Ranger School as an Air Force member... as long as you are CCT, PJ, TACP, or SF... and maybe Combat Weather... not sure on that one though. No... Seals is not the same way. Yes you get a Ranger Tab... and NO... you cannot wear it. This of course is after you complete the prerequisite course of Pre-Ranger... which is worse than Ranger School. No... I have not been, but that is verbatim out of the mouth of a Ranger in the AF SF. Also the CCT student that died was the Ranger Buddy of the Ranger I got that info from... .

Silver Fox
07-09-2009, 10:34 AM
Well, odds are if your buddy in SF said Pre-Ranger was tougher than Ranger.... he hasn't been to Ranger.

It's a popular careerfield myth started by guys that went to Pre Ranger but never got to go to Ranger school to puff themselves up, "Well I never got to go to Ranger.... BUT... Pre Ranger is TOUGHER ANYWAY!" Everyone I know that's been to Pre Ranger said it was a cakewalk compared to Ranger School. It's similar to the myth that the Air Force CPEC School is tougher than the Army Sniper school or is in fact the same as Sniper school. Or that the 820th is an Infantry Unit. It's all a big joke, to be honest.

It is very rare for an SF troop to go to Ranger. Most quite frankly, can't hack it.

Anyway, on topic: These troops go to Ranger because Ranger School teaches combat schools that are useful to those jobs. But why are you complaining? They let anyone in the Army go, even if they're not combat or combat support. You can be a damn cook with a Ranger tab.

Aitrus
07-09-2009, 02:45 PM
I know an AF EOD officer that went through Ranger School. He wore his tab no matter what his leadership said to him about it. Something about a Court of Honor ruling.

imported_Yggdrasil
07-09-2009, 03:01 PM
does the same thing apply to Seals training?

No. The Navy did, however, start a pilot program with the Coast Guard, where four Coast Guardsmen went to SEAL training - with the possibility of allowing more. Last I heard, two of them dropped out. This was a couple of months ago, however.

imported_kvnhlstd
07-09-2009, 03:24 PM
Their you go Silver Fox... spewing your bullshit. I was stationed at Nellis in the mid 80's when Silver Flag started the pre ranger school, I went to pre-ranger class 84-B, I know for a fact that pre-ranger is made to be more stringent than ranger school so the AF Sf does not have any wash outs. In fact when I spoke to a buddy of mine that is a Ranger a few years back... SF still had not had a wash out do to quitting. Pre ranger was 26 days long so they teach and evaluate every facet of Ranger training. last I heard SF was sending approx 6-7 guys a year to ranger school. tell you what Silver Fox, spew about pre-ranger being a cake walk to the original SF rangers, Tweed, Lebeouf, Kazmeir, these guys are the real deal, Kaz was the first non Army troop to win the Iron Mike award at airborne school.

BigBaze
07-09-2009, 04:53 PM
Yes you can go to Ranger School as an Air Force member... as long as you are CCT, PJ, TACP, or SF... and maybe Combat Weather... not sure on that one though. No... Seals is not the same way. Yes you get a Ranger Tab... and NO... you cannot wear it. This of course is after you complete the prerequisite course of Pre-Ranger... which is worse than Ranger School. No... I have not been, but that is verbatim out of the mouth of a Ranger in the AF SF. Also the CCT student that died was the Ranger Buddy of the Ranger I got that info from... .


When I was at SERE school, ( as aircrew, I am not a SERE specialist) the instructors were saying that the Combat Weather guys could go through Ranger school and were the only Air Force people allowed to wear the Ranger tab if earned. Anyone know anything about this?

TJMAC77SP
07-09-2009, 05:41 PM
Their you go Silver Fox... spewing your bullshit. I was stationed at Nellis in the mid 80's when Silver Flag started the pre ranger school, I went to pre-ranger class 84-B, I know for a fact that pre-ranger is made to be more stringent than ranger school so the AF Sf does not have any wash outs. In fact when I spoke to a buddy of mine that is a Ranger a few years back... SF still had not had a wash out do to quitting. Pre ranger was 26 days long so they teach and evaluate every facet of Ranger training. last I heard SF was sending approx 6-7 guys a year to ranger school. tell you what Silver Fox, spew about pre-ranger being a cake walk to the original SF rangers, Tweed, Lebeouf, Kazmeir, these guys are the real deal, Kaz was the first non Army troop to win the Iron Mike award at airborne school.

I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle. Pre-Ranger is VERY tough on the physical requirements because that is what was washing most AF Ranger students out. That first week at Benning. I would say it is not a 'cake-walk' (even compared to actual Ranger School) but it is by no means "tougher then Ranger School".

BTW: Tweed is a very old friend and I knew him when he earned his tab (and later his airborne wings). I also knew (but wasn't as close with) Don Derry who will both attest to what I am saying.

TJMAC77SP
07-09-2009, 05:44 PM
BTW: For Ranger Students (not destined for assignement to the 75th Ranger Regiment), Ranger school is a small unit leadership course. What the AF calls PME. That is why anyone in the Army (and selected specialties in the other branches) can attend. After all, why would a Army Finance officer need to attend Ranger School if the only purpose was to make Rangers?

imported_kvnhlstd
07-09-2009, 08:03 PM
TJMAC,
Were you stationed at Nellis???
Tweed was a nut back in the day... I can remember being sent up to flag for admin support (aggressor, water/troop hauler) anyway one time we were aggressing against England AFB and Tweed was running us. We broke out mres to eat in a waddie in between attacks and Tweed cracked open a can of alpo dog food, he used the lid as a spoon. Derry was running a flight up in Area II went I PCSed to europe.
BigBaze, Back in 2000-2001 I played alot of golf in Okinawa with a Combat weather guy that wore the tab... He was assigned to the 1st/1st SF Battalion at Torii Station.

imported_a1cfox21
07-09-2009, 10:34 PM
Just wanted to add that Combat Weather (now Spec Ops Weather) could wear Ranger and Airborne tabs, Airborne & Air Assault badges on BDU's but only when permanently assigned to an Army and/or Spec Ops unit. Now tabs are not authorized on ABU's. But I believe they are still authorized Airborne and Air Assault badges on the ABU even if not permanently assigned to one of those units anymore.. At least one of our MSgt's still wears his badges...

imported_squeezeandcrush777
07-09-2009, 10:44 PM
......................... ok, so basically other branches go to the school to improve themselves in the job they do? thats bout all i got from all you guys' post lol

imported_a1cfox21
07-09-2009, 10:58 PM
......................... ok, so basically other branches go to the school to improve themselves in the job they do? thats bout all i got from all you guys' post lol

LOL. Yeah, pretty much. It's very useful training for the shooters. But it's not required training for AF Spec Ops folks that I know of like Halo/Scuba/SERE/etc... Good times.

Mi11er
07-09-2009, 11:21 PM
Well, odds are if your buddy in SF said Pre-Ranger was tougher than Ranger.... he hasn't been to Ranger.

It's a popular careerfield myth started by guys that went to Pre Ranger but never got to go to Ranger school to puff themselves up, "Well I never got to go to Ranger.... BUT... Pre Ranger is TOUGHER ANYWAY!" Everyone I know that's been to Pre Ranger said it was a cakewalk compared to Ranger School. It's similar to the myth that the Air Force CPEC School is tougher than the Army Sniper school or is in fact the same as Sniper school. Or that the 820th is an Infantry Unit. It's all a big joke, to be honest.

It is very rare for an SF troop to go to Ranger. Most quite frankly, can't hack it.



God ... how many times have I heard this statement. I should simply step over to the "That Guy" thread and put you in it... but I have a feeling you have made it their already. The "SF" Ranger that I know...was my supervisor and left our unit to Pre Ranger... then came back... then left for Ranger ... and weird, he came back with all these pictures of Ranger School. But, he must have been just randomly wandering through that school taking pics and they were cool with it.. that would explain it.

SIlver, your statement proves that you are one of those people that doesn't like it when others do better than you... have to make a comment that its always bullshit. Quick question... ever been to Pre Ranger, or Ranger for that matter? Didn't think so... and claiming the "what Ive always heard" is a cop out. Are you even in any of these career fields to make a legitimate comment... or are you being "That Guy" and just talking out your ass. I suspect the latter.

TJMAC77SP
07-10-2009, 12:38 AM
TJMAC,
Were you stationed at Nellis???
Tweed was a nut back in the day... I can remember being sent up to flag for admin support (aggressor, water/troop hauler) anyway one time we were aggressing against England AFB and Tweed was running us. We broke out mres to eat in a waddie in between attacks and Tweed cracked open a can of alpo dog food, he used the lid as a spoon. Derry was running a flight up in Area II went I PCSed to europe.
BigBaze, Back in 2000-2001 I played alot of golf in Okinawa with a Combat weather guy that wore the tab... He was assigned to the 1st/1st SF Battalion at Torii Station.

Tweed started the Alpo trick at Seymour Johnson. The ABGD Flight was in the field at Ft Bragg and he cooked up some stew using fresh veggies and dog food that was made from horse meat. After the troops chowed down and talked up how good it was he showed them the dog food cans. Needless to say some were pissed. I loved it!
My trips to Silver Flag Alpha go back to Chief Walt Seay and Captain Salley (hard to believe he made colonel). At one point the OIC, Captain Newsome (not hard to believe he made colonel) told me they should put my name on a plague on one of the hootches because I had been out there so often (for not being permanent party). My last trip out (many years ago) I was part of a team of cops who trained with an ODA from the 1st SFG and then aggressed against two ABGD flights. Good times. Tweed ran us that time as well. He was the only cadre willing to stay out in the field with us as we were out in the desert and not on SFA proper.
There are a lot of Tweed stories but given his current AFSC and position I think it better to leave those unsaid.

Silver Fox
07-10-2009, 01:43 AM
Their you go Silver Fox... spewing your bullshit. I was stationed at Nellis in the mid 80's when Silver Flag started the pre ranger school, I went to pre-ranger class 84-B, I know for a fact that pre-ranger is made to be more stringent than ranger school so the AF Sf does not have any wash outs. In fact when I spoke to a buddy of mine that is a Ranger a few years back... SF still had not had a wash out do to quitting. Pre ranger was 26 days long so they teach and evaluate every facet of Ranger training. last I heard SF was sending approx 6-7 guys a year to ranger school. tell you what Silver Fox, spew about pre-ranger being a cake walk to the original SF rangers, Tweed, Lebeouf, Kazmeir, these guys are the real deal, Kaz was the first non Army troop to win the Iron Mike award at airborne school.


Where did I insult Rangers? Hmmmm?

And as I said, everyone I know that's been to both says that Ranger school was a hell of a lot tougher, and everyone I know that's only been to Pre-Ranger says Pre-Ranger is a hell of a lot tougher, but who do you believe? I pick the guys that've been to both. Bullshit? I think not.

We haven't had a washout, that doesn't really mean anything. It just means they carefully screen for the guys who are already in the best shape and have the best chance of passing. Pre-Ranger doesn't prepare you for Ranger school, it's a screening process. It is shorter and less rigorous than Ranger school, unless you've never seen the Ranger curriculum by any chance.... Out of a career field of over 20,000 people, only 6 or 7 go a year.... and you're surprised we have no wash outs? Let anyone go and see how much that rate rises. It's a useless statistic. One that's probably false anyway. It's hard to believe that no one ever washed out due to injury.

Silver Fox
07-10-2009, 01:45 AM
God ... how many times have I heard this statement. I should simply step over to the "That Guy" thread and put you in it... but I have a feeling you have made it their already. The "SF" Ranger that I know...was my supervisor and left our unit to Pre Ranger... then came back... then left for Ranger ... and weird, he came back with all these pictures of Ranger School. But, he must have been just randomly wandering through that school taking pics and they were cool with it.. that would explain it.

SIlver, your statement proves that you are one of those people that doesn't like it when others do better than you... have to make a comment that its always bullshit. Quick question... ever been to Pre Ranger, or Ranger for that matter? Didn't think so... and claiming the "what Ive always heard" is a cop out. Are you even in any of these career fields to make a legitimate comment... or are you being "That Guy" and just talking out your ass. I suspect the latter.

No, I have not been to Ranger or Pre-Ranger, have never had the slots to go. Not a cop out. It's limited availability. :rolleyes: And that just means I'm as qualified as you are to make these statements, as apparently you haven't been either. :rolleyes: I would have loved to go, and then gone blue-to-green. :) Same for airborne.

I just don't drink the kool aid. Get to know some Army and Marine Infantry, Rangers and Special Ops guys... you'll realize that nothing about our job today is by any means hardcore. Humbling experience. I know far too many actual infantry to buy into that Air Force Infantry Bullshit.

I don't give a shit if someone does 'better' than me. Doesn't happen much, but it happens, and I congratulate them and pat them on the back. I didn't get BTZ for example, I knew I wouldn't. I was a pretty average airman, the guy that got it, didn't deserve it either, other people had done more than he had, politics are a bitch, but I didn't get pissed about it.

Now, when my award package came back last year and my supervisor got told to water mine down so someone else would get said award and he did it. Yeah. That pissed me off.

imported_kvnhlstd
07-10-2009, 03:12 AM
TJMAC,
The good old hootch's... the last time I was out at the flag was in 92, Labeuf was pretty much running the show out there with CJ Jordan. Capt Newsome was my Commander was I was at Nellis, I ended up running into him at Ramstein a couple of years in the middle of the Fluetag 88 disaster.
By the way where is Tweed these days???

Robert F. Dorr
06-06-2013, 12:57 AM
I know Tweed. Tweed is no longer in uniform.

RobotChicken
06-06-2013, 01:15 AM
Sure about that????

TJMAC77SP
06-06-2013, 11:04 AM
Yes, Bob is correct but probably better to leave it at that.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-06-2013, 11:24 AM
I’ve heard of one of the guys from Volant Scorpion (Little Rock AFB) doing a variation of the dog food trick but it was actually cans of beef stew with Alpo labels pasted over them.

Funny stuff!

Stalwart
06-06-2013, 01:47 PM
I attended (& more importantly I graduated) in 1999 while in the Marines and stationed with an Infantry Reconnaissance Battalion. If anyone has any questions about other services attending I can provide 1st hand knowledge on the subject.

TJMAC77SP
06-06-2013, 02:55 PM
I’ve heard of one of the guys from Volant Scorpion (Little Rock AFB) doing a variation of the dog food trick but it was actually cans of beef stew with Alpo labels pasted over them.

Funny stuff!

In TAC we actually lived hard, we didn't simulate it.

Volant Scorpian..................Silver Flag Alpha wannabes !!!!!

Johca
06-06-2013, 06:19 PM
Most Air Force personnel are not sent to Ranger School because the course teaches skills useful for the job, most get sent for reasons of the Ranger Course being a moral incentive dog bone more so than an operational mission need of the war fighting Air Force.

Pre Ranger as the Air Force runs it is for the exact same reason the Army runs pre -Ranger courses. This reason being most lack the basic fitness ability to pass the required Army PFT and participate in the physically demanding training and most importantly because most lack basic skill competencies to participate as members of a combat patrol with such skills as land navigation, immediate reaction knowledge of what to do when a sniper or ambush is encountered, or even basic patrolling hand signals.

The Ranger School is a basic small tactical unit (squad/platoon) leader PME course. It is not an initial entry train and qualify the US Army Ranger course. To get assigned to Ranger duty position in the 75th Ranger Regiment the “Army” service member must attend and complete either the eight week Ranger Assessment Selection Program 1 (Pvt-Sgt) or the 21 day week Ranger Assessment Selection Program 2 (Sgt and above and all officers).

Neither completion of Pre-Ranger or Ranger School brings with it assurances to the Air Force member that they will ever be assigned to lead or participate as a member of a small tactical unit doing battlefield airman roles and missions. Best look at how many AFSCs that send people to the Ranger School lack any SEI or other career/mission utilization requirements to use the person in such a leader capacity.

Here’s the Army’s prescribed policy for the Air Force http://www.benning.army.mil/infantry/RTB/content/PDF/AF%20Ranger%20School%20Info.pdf

TJMAC77SP
06-06-2013, 07:33 PM
I'd like to emphasize the difference between the tabs (guys with just the tabs) and the scrolls (dudes at batts or reg). A tab is simply a ranger school grad. Scrolls have been assigned to a Ranger BN or RGT. Quite a few grunts get tabbed, very few get scrolls.

Good point JD

TJMAC77SP
06-06-2013, 07:35 PM
I'd like to emphasize the difference between the tabs (guys with just the tabs) and the scrolls (dudes at batts or reg). A tab is simply a ranger school grad. Scrolls have been assigned to a Ranger BN or RGT. Quite a few grunts get tabbed, very few get scrolls.

Good point JD

JD2780
06-06-2013, 07:37 PM
Most Air Force personnel are not sent to Ranger School because the course teaches skills useful for the job, most get sent for reasons of the Ranger Course being a moral incentive dog bone more so than an operational mission need of the war fighting Air Force.

Pre Ranger as the Air Force runs it is for the exact same reason the Army runs pre -Ranger courses. This reason being most lack the basic fitness ability to pass the required Army PFT and participate in the physically demanding training and most importantly because most lack basic skill competencies to participate as members of a combat patrol with such skills as land navigation, immediate reaction knowledge of what to do when a sniper or ambush is encountered, or even basic patrolling hand signals.

The Ranger School is a basic small tactical unit (squad/platoon) leader PME course. It is not an initial entry train and qualify the US Army Ranger course. To get assigned to Ranger duty position in the 75th Ranger Regiment the “Army” service member must attend and complete either the eight week Ranger Assessment Selection Program 1 (Pvt-Sgt) or the 21 day week Ranger Assessment Selection Program 2 (Sgt and above and all officers).

Neither completion of Pre-Ranger or Ranger School brings with it assurances to the Air Force member that they will ever be assigned to lead or participate as a member of a small tactical unit doing battlefield airman roles and missions. Best look at how many AFSCs that send people to the Ranger School lack any SEI or other career/mission utilization requirements to use the person in such a leader capacity.

Here’s the Army’s prescribed policy for the Air Force http://www.benning.army.mil/infantry/RTB/content/PDF/AF%20Ranger%20School%20Info.pdf

Even tabbed TACPs that patrol with elements of the 75th won't lead the patrol. They have a specialty that they need to be concentrating on.

I'd like to emphasize the difference between the tabs (guys with just the tabs) and the scrolls (dudes at batts or reg). A tab is simply a ranger school grad. Scrolls have been assigned to a Ranger BN or RGT. Quite a few grunts get tabbed, very few get scrolls.

Johca
06-07-2013, 01:55 AM
While the Ranger Tab represents being a Ranger School Grad as it's not an authorized or approved Air Force Tab or an actual Air Force mission qualification them there AF people wearing the Tab because it satisfies some self-need are in most cases not sustaining Army fitness standards either. Some food for thought from AR 600–8–22 pertinent to the tab standard of maintain prescribed standards of personal fitness and readiness to accomplish missions commensurate with position and rank. If not in a Battlefield Airmen AFSC the maintaining prescribed standards of personal fitness and readiness to accomplish missions commensurate with position and rank is some what never going to happen.


(13) Ranger Tab. The Ranger Tab may be revoked by the Commander, U.S. Army Infantry School based on the recommendation of the field commander (COL or above) of the individual in question, if in the opinion of that commander the individual has exhibited a pattern of behavior, expertise or duty performance that is inconsistent with expectations of the Army, that is, that Ranger qualified Soldiers continuously demonstrate enhanced degrees of confidence, commitment, competency and discipline. Award of the Ranger Tab may be revoked for the following under any of the following conditions:
(a) Dismissal, dishonorable discharge or conviction by courts-martial for desertion in time of war.
(b) Refusal to accept assignment to a Ranger coded position.
(c) Failure to maintain prescribed standards of personal fitness and readiness to accomplish missions commensurate with position and rank.
(d) Upon relief or release for cause.

needmorecowbell
06-07-2013, 02:54 AM
Unacceptable!

Fact: You will get to fight tigers at Ranger School and get to choke the shit out of people.

JD2780
06-07-2013, 03:25 AM
Unacceptable!

Fact: You will get to fight tigers at Ranger School and get to choke the shit out of people.

Mountain tossing! Super rappelling!!!

What about Special Forces?

JD2780
06-07-2013, 03:36 AM
While the Ranger Tab represents being a Ranger School Grad as it's not an authorized or approved Air Force Tab or an actual Air Force mission qualification them there AF people wearing the Tab because it satisfies some self-need are in most cases not sustaining Army fitness standards either. Some food for thought from AR 600–8–22 pertinent to the tab standard of maintain prescribed standards of personal fitness and readiness to accomplish missions commensurate with position and rank. If not in a Battlefield Airmen AFSC the maintaining prescribed standards of personal fitness and readiness to accomplish missions commensurate with position and rank is some what never going to happen.


(13) Ranger Tab. The Ranger Tab may be revoked by the Commander, U.S. Army Infantry School based on the recommendation of the field commander (COL or above) of the individual in question, if in the opinion of that commander the individual has exhibited a pattern of behavior, expertise or duty performance that is inconsistent with expectations of the Army, that is, that Ranger qualified Soldiers continuously demonstrate enhanced degrees of confidence, commitment, competency and discipline. Award of the Ranger Tab may be revoked for the following under any of the following conditions:
(a) Dismissal, dishonorable discharge or conviction by courts-martial for desertion in time of war.
(b) Refusal to accept assignment to a Ranger coded position.
(c) Failure to maintain prescribed standards of personal fitness and readiness to accomplish missions commensurate with position and rank.
(d) Upon relief or release for cause.

I've seen some tabbed fat bodies in the army. Their tabs weren't pulled. More standards not being enforced.

JD2780
06-07-2013, 03:36 AM
Unacceptable!

Fact: You will get to fight tigers at Ranger School and get to choke the shit out of people.

Mountain tossing! Super rappelling!!!

What about Special Forces?

BRUWIN
06-07-2013, 03:43 AM
Why are people arguing about Ranger courses in an AF thread? Fact is none of that Army BS compares to what I went through in AF Combat Skills Training. CST blows away anything the Army does.

JD2780
06-07-2013, 03:44 AM
Damn right Bru!!! Head down to the ACA and tell stories of CST!!!

needmorecowbell
06-07-2013, 04:49 AM
Mountain tossing! Super rappelling!!!

What about Special Forces?

Fuck special forces!

Absinthe Anecdote
06-07-2013, 10:35 AM
Why are people arguing about Ranger courses in an AF thread? Fact is none of that Army BS compares to what I went through in AF Combat Skills Training. CST blows away anything the Army does.

We used to take the fire extinguisher and info security CBTs just for fun in my old Intel unit.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-07-2013, 10:42 AM
In TAC we actually lived hard, we didn't simulate it.

Volant Scorpian..................Silver Flag Alpha wannabes !!!!!

A few years after I cross trained into Intel I was assigned to the AMC Warfare Center on Ft Dix where the remnants of the Volant Scorpion guys where at.

Those guys thought they were Rangers; they didn’t have Ranger tabs but did have Defender tabs.

They also uttered the Hooah at every possible occasion and some had even incorporated it into their normal speaking voices.

Going to a commander’s call with those guys was bad enough but when they started to hooah during a routine conversation you wondered what the fuck was wrong with them.

TJMAC77SP
06-07-2013, 10:47 AM
I've seen some tabbed fat bodies in the army. Their tabs weren't pulled. More standards not being enforced.

I believe that whole section was added to the AR in because there were cases of tabbed douchebags who embarrassed the Army because of criminal conduct and the Army wanted a way to revoke the tab.

TJMAC77SP
06-07-2013, 10:54 AM
A few years after I cross trained into Intel I was assigned to the AMC Warfare Center on Ft Dix where the remnants of the Volant Scorpion guys where at.

Those guys thought they were Rangers; they didn’t have Ranger tabs but did have Defender tabs.

They also uttered the Hooah at every possible occasion and some had even incorporated it into their normal speaking voices.

Going to a commander’s call with those guys was bad enough but when they started to hooah during a routine conversation you wondered what the fuck was wrong with them.

I will admit to uttering a 'hooah' now and again in my time but stopped when it began to get out of hand. I sort of admired it when it was limited to the Ranger Batts (Good God it was almost another language talking with those guys!). The Defender tab was another good idea that was turned into an abortion by asshats. There were no formal standards that I know of so units everywhere just decided haphazardly to wear it. There was a belief that if you were on an Air Base Ground Defense Flight you could wear it. Another that if you went to the Dix ABGD training you could wear it. Bullshit.

JD2780
06-07-2013, 11:21 AM
Fuck special forces!

You can shave with a chainsaw!!

Venus
06-07-2013, 02:46 PM
Fuck special forces!

Your just jealous because they have beards and have cool toys and don't wear reflective belts.

JD2780
06-07-2013, 02:53 PM
Your just jealous because they have beards and have cool toys and don't wear reflective belts.

Nah, it's part of the ranger power thirst commercial.

http://youtu.be/xBfvrhjIMB0

Johca
06-07-2013, 03:21 PM
I believe that whole section was added to the AR in because there were cases of tabbed douchebags who embarrassed the Army because of criminal conduct and the Army wanted a way to revoke the tab.I do not have the Ranger Tab revoking policy going back to when the Ranger Tab was officially approved on 30 October 1950. But considering similar revoke policy existed for the parachutist badge it is reasonable to expect the policy was adopted from what was already in place for the parachutist badges and the aviation badges since WWII.

Johca
06-07-2013, 03:39 PM
BTW when the SAPPER Tab was approved on 28 June 2004 the exact same revoke policy as the Ranger Tab was put in place.

JD2780
06-07-2013, 04:06 PM
Sapper. It's like ranger only for chicks.

TJMAC77SP
06-07-2013, 05:02 PM
I do not have the Ranger Tab revoking policy going back to when the Ranger Tab was officially approved on 30 October 1950. But considering similar revoke policy existed for the parachutist badge it is reasonable to expect the policy was adopted from what was already in place for the parachutist badges and the aviation badges since WWII.

Could be, I was just offering a possibility. I have seen many a Ranger challenge others wearing the tab but have never heard of it being revoked for physical standards.

Johca
06-07-2013, 05:32 PM
Could be, I was just offering a possibility. I have seen many a Ranger challenge others wearing the tab but have never heard of it being revoked for physical standards.That is because there are many who self eliminated from or were failed to train eliminated from the Ranger School that wear the Ranger Tab. For example there is an Air Force Security Force colonel (0-6) that until recently claimed to be a graduate of the Ranger School for many years. A review of the Ranger School records revealed this individual was medical recycled from Ranger Class 09-85 and subsequently medical dropped from Ranger Class 10-85. He never completed more than a week or two of the course, never graduated the course, but claimed Ranger Tabbed for many years. Too many phonies in the military, there were actually two persons selected as one of the Outstanding Airman of the Year exposed weeks before being announced as selectees who falsified their records as being awarded pararescue AFSC and performing combat missions that were actually performed by actual PJs.

Airman Magazine published an article in Aug/Sep 2011 that was pulled after it was discovered the SMSgt Medical Technician had falsified his record of doing a combat mission actually performed by a PJ during the period of 28-29 October 1966 that resulted in the actual PJ being awarded the Silver Star.

JD2780
06-07-2013, 05:49 PM
That is because there are many who self eliminated from or were failed to train eliminated from the Ranger School that wear the Ranger Tab. For example there is an Air Force Security Force colonel (0-6) that until recently claimed to be a graduate of the Ranger School for many years. A review of the Ranger School records revealed this individual was medical recycled from Ranger Class 09-85 and subsequently medical dropped from Ranger Class 10-85. He never completed more than a week or two of the course, never graduated the course, but claimed Ranger Tabbed for many years. Too many phonies in the military, there were actually two persons selected as one of the Outstanding Airman of the Year exposed weeks before being announced as selectees who falsified their records as being awarded pararescue AFSC and performing combat missions that were actually performed by actual PJs.

Airman Magazine published an article in Aug/Sep 2011 that was pulled after it was discovered the SMSgt Medical Technician had falsified his record of doing a combat mission actually performed by a PJ during the period of 28-29 October 1966 that resulted in the actual PJ being awarded the Silver Star.


Folks need to be comfortable in their own skin. It's sad when folks falsify stuff. I've never gone to Ranger school, I've worked with them on numerous occasions, but never got tabbed. I have a handful of friends that are tabbed. If you're going to falsify something, falsify Sq airman of the quarter!! Not ranger school jump school dive, you know stuff that is easy to find out!!

TJMAC77SP
06-07-2013, 06:10 PM
That is because there are many who self eliminated from or were failed to train eliminated from the Ranger School that wear the Ranger Tab. For example there is an Air Force Security Force colonel (0-6) that until recently claimed to be a graduate of the Ranger School for many years. A review of the Ranger School records revealed this individual was medical recycled from Ranger Class 09-85 and subsequently medical dropped from Ranger Class 10-85. He never completed more than a week or two of the course, never graduated the course, but claimed Ranger Tabbed for many years. Too many phonies in the military, there were actually two persons selected as one of the Outstanding Airman of the Year exposed weeks before being announced as selectees who falsified their records as being awarded pararescue AFSC and performing combat missions that were actually performed by actual PJs.

Airman Magazine published an article in Aug/Sep 2011 that was pulled after it was discovered the SMSgt Medical Technician had falsified his record of doing a combat mission actually performed by a PJ during the period of 28-29 October 1966 that resulted in the actual PJ being awarded the Silver Star.


Never understand that crap. The Duke First Sergeant of the Year Award is similar. What a black eye to both the AF and the CMSAF.

I have a tabbed friend (AF - now retired) who has never hestitated to call out people he feels are wearing an unearned tab. At one Contending Warrior event back around 1991 a SF SNCO showed up wearing one. My friend asked him a simple bona fides type question which he completely blew and a call was made to the Ranger School. Records were checked and lo and behold no such name. My friend calmly told the SNCO if he saw him wearing the tab 10 minutes later he was going to the SF Group commander (Who was standing a few feet away) and inform him of the situation. The SNCO wisely went quickly to a men's rooom and removed the tab from his BDUs. Truth is I believe my friend told the SF colonel anyway.

Johca
06-07-2013, 07:07 PM
Anyhow, back to the “Rangers in other Branches”. The Army has branches of Infantry, Armor, Artillery, Civil Engineering, etc. During WWII, the Army Air Forces could be considered as being the Aviation Branch of the Army. However, in 1947 it became an independent service. As an independent separated from the U.S. Army service, the Air Force as a service doesn’t have a US Army airborne infantry, US Army Ranger, or US Army helicopter air assault infantry role and mission or operational infantry capability to provide war fighting commanders. Having no role and mission there are no US Army Rangers serving as members of the US Air Force. Members of the US Air Force sent to the US Army Ranger School are not being sent there to become “Ranger” qualified or to be Air Force “Rangers”

The training provided at the Ranger School and SAPPER Leader Course is specific military occupation specific (MOS/AFSC) independent. Ranger School is infantry oriented and the SAPPER course is combat engineering oriented. Both courses are actually leader development courses using branch common (Infantry/Combat Civil Engineering) using a common task list for officers and NCOs. Consequently, training to the lowest common denominator of many occupations prevents design of training to qualify an individual in any specific tactical leading duty position. The training to the lowest common occupational denominator rather than specific role and mission leading utilization necessitates course such as Pre-Ranger exist. The existence to ensure any military member regardless of military occupation (MOS/AFSC) have the necessary field craft (land navigation, patrolling, immediate reaction) task proficiencies and level of fitness needed to participate in the combat environment field training exercise simulations.

Not being occupation-specific or unit type specific also prevents these courses being fire team, squad, platoon, or combat patrol or long-range patrol) leader qualification courses. Such being qualified is determined by the tactical unit’s or occupation-specific operation capability driven Mission Essential Task List (METEL). For example the U.S. Army Ranger leader requirements are determined by a unit METEL due to being composed of many military occupations whereas as the Battlefield Airmen AFSCs are occupation specific with required skill level core skill proficiencies and award of SEIs identifying who holds tactical leading qualifications and performs these duties. The intent of providing this perspective is to give context of level of qualification and experience needed to lead a small tactical team is a result of much more education, training and development than just “one” course can provide.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-08-2013, 03:11 PM
Anyhow, back to the “Rangers in other Branches”. The Army has branches of Infantry, Armor, Artillery, Civil Engineering, etc. During WWII, the Army Air Forces could be considered as being the Aviation Branch of the Army. However, in 1947 it became an independent service. As an independent separated from the U.S. Army service, the Air Force as a service doesn’t have a US Army airborne infantry, US Army Ranger, or US Army helicopter air assault infantry role and mission or operational infantry capability to provide war fighting commanders. Having no role and mission there are no US Army Rangers serving as members of the US Air Force. Members of the US Air Force sent to the US Army Ranger School are not being sent there to become “Ranger” qualified or to be Air Force “Rangers”

The training provided at the Ranger School and SAPPER Leader Course is specific military occupation specific (MOS/AFSC) independent. Ranger School is infantry oriented and the SAPPER course is combat engineering oriented. Both courses are actually leader development courses using branch common (Infantry/Combat Civil Engineering) using a common task list for officers and NCOs. Consequently, training to the lowest common denominator of many occupations prevents design of training to qualify an individual in any specific tactical leading duty position. The training to the lowest common occupational denominator rather than specific role and mission leading utilization necessitates course such as Pre-Ranger exist. The existence to ensure any military member regardless of military occupation (MOS/AFSC) have the necessary field craft (land navigation, patrolling, immediate reaction) task proficiencies and level of fitness needed to participate in the combat environment field training exercise simulations.

Not being occupation-specific or unit type specific also prevents these courses being fire team, squad, platoon, or combat patrol or long-range patrol) leader qualification courses. Such being qualified is determined by the tactical unit’s or occupation-specific operation capability driven Mission Essential Task List (METEL). For example the U.S. Army Ranger leader requirements are determined by a unit METEL due to being composed of many military occupations whereas as the Battlefield Airmen AFSCs are occupation specific with required skill level core skill proficiencies and award of SEIs identifying who holds tactical leading qualifications and performs these duties. The intent of providing this perspective is to give context of level of qualification and experience needed to lead a small tactical team is a result of much more education, training and development than just “one” course can provide.

Wow!

You sure know a lot about Rangers!

Can you tell us about this guy? Is he a friend of yours?

http://forums.militarytimes.com/member.php?7962-jconners

Johca
06-08-2013, 05:44 PM
Not a friend of mine, never met him. If you have suspicions do a FOIA request and see what comes back.

BENDER56
06-08-2013, 06:57 PM
According to this list, it seems the AF has been sending its troops to Ranger school since 1955:

https://www.benning.army.mil/mcoe/airforce/content/PDF/AF%20Ranger%20Tracker%20POA.pdf

Johca
06-08-2013, 06:58 PM
Well there you go, only 248 Air Force graduates during the period 1955 to 2013. So there's probably a few AF EOD, AF Security Forces looking at the list hoping nobody in their current unit or career field is looking at the list and noticing their name isn't there.

Absinthe Anecdote
06-08-2013, 07:28 PM
I’m pretty sure I’ve only known phony Rangers, Seals and PJs.

The classic PJ phony goes to the tryout for PJ training and gets rejected. They then try to portray it as if they almost completed the PJ course and got eliminated due to an injury.

Navy personnel are notorious for washing out of BUDS and making it sound like they were a Seal. What is wrong with admitting that your military service was mind numbingly boring?

The most exciting thing I did was when I saved Bruwin’s life the time he got his arm caught in a vending machine. Pretty scary, the machine almost tipped over and you could hear Skittles pinging off the inside of the machine.

Johca
06-08-2013, 08:45 PM
I’m pretty sure I’ve only known phony Rangers, Seals and PJs.Just the most common falsified service to expose due to the required qualification course registrar records, unit manning records, and other records such as mission records, aeronautical order (award of parachutist, aircrew badges) and a variety of cross record checks to verify the claim. Never been more than 500 PJs performing duties in the total active duty and reserve component force structure since 1947 and during any given year. During the 1950s after the Korean War and early 1960s it was less than 200 inclusive of the reserve components. During the 1970s, 1980s and most of the 1990s it was barely 300 qualified and performing duties in any given year. The database of those who performed Pararescue team duties goes back to 1940 to the first Flight Surgeon who went through the smoke jumper course and includes a few others who OJTed by doing jumps without any prior parachute qualification training which was the case of the two NCOs that made the jump with Lt Col Flickinger during August 1943 in Burma.



goes to the tryout for PJ trainingPresuming they even tried to qualify to get the GTEP enlistment contract or took the PAST during BMT to get sent to the PJ Indoc Course. Can’t be eliminated out of training that was never started by the individual. Got eliminated due to an injury is implying being a student in the Indoc Course or the subsequent training pipeline.


The medical elimination statistics is less than 1% are eliminated from training for medical reasons. Those that get medical disqualified during tend to have serious medical conditions that were not caught during the required medical examinations or encounter a significant trauma injury (fractured bones, crushed and bruised vital organs, etc and etc.)


Example being in during a recent PJ Indoc course class a student was progressing satisfactorily through Indoc until his final last day of course Physical Ability and Stamina Test. He did not pass this test but was otherwise was on track to pass the course and proceed into the training pipeline. Two days later he was administered a second chance to pass or be washed back in training (not eliminated) PAST. He ended up being an emergency admission to the hospital for a undiagnosed Wolff–Parkinson–White syndrome condition that had his PJ instructors doing all sorts of emergency treatment during his transport to the hospital. The point being is the medical eliminations are generally not mundane simple common cold, flu, mumps, or chicken pox medical causes. Most voluntarily self-eliminate themselves from training.


The answer as to why a person embellishes or creates a false service depends on the situation and circumstances of what is being personally gained by the individual making the false service history claim. The training and experience a person gains performing pararescue duties in the Air Force is often exploited by such persons to fraudulently establish a level of professional creditability.

JD2780
06-09-2013, 03:23 AM
I've got a few former supervisors and a few peers on that list. I can say that they are better leaders for it also. Sme have differing styles, but they are certainly effective leaders.