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Shrike
06-01-2009, 05:56 AM
A discussion in the Dumb Air Force Rules (http://www.militarytimes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1576520) thread spurred me to start this one. It's for listing the unwritten rules that everyone is expected to abide by, but some people don't know.

I'll start off with "Although it's an optional uniform for enlisted, SNCOs will wear mess dress, not the semi-formal uniform."

BRUWIN
06-01-2009, 07:10 AM
Males can't part hair in the middle if they want to be a First Sergeant. I was told this was an unwritten rule when I was being pre-screened for the job by the Wing CCM and he asked me if I planned on continuing to do it. I told him never mind and left his office. I retrained into Intel instead.

MACHINE666
06-01-2009, 07:30 AM
The 'high and tight' military haircut if you want to look 'military'......

technomage1
06-01-2009, 12:46 PM
Enlisted wearing all ribbons and devices, and officers wearing only the name tag.

imported_Bummed
06-01-2009, 01:34 PM
How about the moustache rules?
Os--absolutely not
Es--no BTZ, no awards

smarg
06-01-2009, 01:56 PM
Officers will not carry or use umbrellas, nor wear mustaches by tradition. In the past when official photos were required, maverick officers would shave them off for the portraits then grow them back.

Fat female Airmen wear ABUs or blues combo with skirts with blue open sweater in attempts to mask their size.

Fat male Airmen wear ABUs in attempts to mask their size, and always bytch about having to wear blues because it makes them look fat.

Officers do not wear ribbons with short sleeve blue shirts, by tradition.

imported_Seasons
06-01-2009, 02:46 PM
Never heard those mustache ones, guess I'm screwed.

At least half of an officer's difference in pay between new grade and old grade must be used to pay for the promotion party (usually for alcohol).

Measure Man
06-01-2009, 02:58 PM
Here's one:

Anybody IN a Maintenance Squadron (even those on staff and the Ops Officers who have no chance of getting dirty) will wear ABUs/BDUs on Mondays.

imported_WILDJOKER5
06-01-2009, 03:09 PM
Here's one:

Anybody IN a Maintenance Squadron (even those on staff and the Ops Officers who have no chance of getting dirty) will wear ABUs/BDUs on Mondays.

Dissagree, anyone i have seen in an office since this policy has been out has been in blues. Unless they are inspecting the line for UCI prep or good at making an excuse.

MACHINE666
06-01-2009, 03:29 PM
I'm surprised nobody has said this one yet - that any 'white space' on an EPR means that person is undeserving of a firewall 5, or the rater isn't trying hard enough to write a bullet.

Whatever happened to effective communication? Using only the words necessary to get the point across? People bitch and whine about how messed up the system is, yet nobody has the stones to say "Look, write 'em like I sees 'em, even if it means not filling up the entire block in the sentence"

:rolleyes:

imported_AF-1Sgt
06-01-2009, 03:46 PM
Any mark downs on an EPR during a tour equals no or a lower decoration at PCS. I had a TSgt that had one mark down in three years and the Gp chief wanted to down grade his AFCM to an AFAM. Had to include a push note from the supervisor and commander to get the job done.

Calmo70
06-01-2009, 03:50 PM
Any dec based on rank. Granted, I can't see a SrA/SSgt getting a MSM, but have known and nominated more than one really good TSGT for MSM. Actually won on two cases - but was out of probably 6.

CMSBROWN
06-01-2009, 07:44 PM
Any mark downs on an EPR during a tour equals no or a lower decoration at PCS. I had a TSgt that had one mark down in three years and the Gp chief wanted to down grade his AFCM to an AFAM. Had to include a push note from the supervisor and commander to get the job done.

That is one that I didnt think of..... Push Notes.

Why? The citiation and write up should be strong enougth to justify the medal package. If not then no decoration.

imported_Sgt HULK
06-01-2009, 08:26 PM
I havent heard of any of these I will say I got f'ed out of a commendation medal because " I have not had staff on Long enough" that coming from the worst e-9 trying to make e-10 i ever seen. after 3 "appeals" from my leadership he said one last time he isnt a staff long enough its either achievement or nothing

yet the shitbag staff who was skating the whole year away because hw as getting out and didnt do dick got his .

that pretty much ruiend my view of the usaf for a long time and hence my reason why im leaving this current career field

Rev Mike Large
06-01-2009, 08:44 PM
Males can't part hair in the middle if they want to be a First Sergeant. I was told this was an unwritten rule when I was being pre-screened for the job by the Wing CCM and he asked me if I planned on continuing to do it. I told him never mind and left his office. I retrained into Intel instead.

That's hilarious to me, since when I was at Randolph there was a brand new 1st Sgt with a part STRAIGHT DOWN THE MIDDLE. While I thought it looked poindexter, it certainly was not out of regs, so I can't really understand that mentality of the CCMs that you're talking about.

Rev Mike Large
06-01-2009, 08:44 PM
How about the moustache rules?
Os--absolutely not
Es--no BTZ, no awards

That rule is off during Mustache March, though.;)

MaintChief
06-01-2009, 08:46 PM
That's hilarious to me, since when I was at Randolph there was a brand new 1st Sgt with a part STRAIGHT DOWN THE MIDDLE. While I thought it looked poindexter, it certainly was not out of regs, so I can't really understand that mentality of the CCMs that you're talking about.

For those of a certain generation, parting your hair down the middle indicated that you indulged in recreational chemicals. I shit you not.

CMSBROWN
06-01-2009, 08:47 PM
For those of a certain generation, parting your hair down the middle indicated that you indulged in recreational chemicals. I shit you not.


No doubt Chief....those damn zipperheads! lol!

imported_blacksheep1208
06-01-2009, 09:02 PM
I havent heard of any of these I will say I got f'ed out of a commendation medal because " I have not had staff on Long enough" that coming from the worst e-9 trying to make e-10 i ever seen. after 3 "appeals" from my leadership he said one last time he isnt a staff long enough its either achievement or nothing

yet the shitbag staff who was skating the whole year away because hw as getting out and didnt do dick got his .

that pretty much ruiend my view of the usaf for a long time and hence my reason why im leaving this current career field

I don't know what career field you're in now, but don't be shocked when you find out your new career has the same BS rules.

imported_Modus
06-01-2009, 09:06 PM
I see that happen all the time, that's the norm. From my experience.

4Runner
06-01-2009, 09:07 PM
In Alaska, Flightline workers do not wear the MPF Jacket, AKA: the Parka.

Gunner007
06-01-2009, 11:06 PM
I'm surprised nobody has said this one yet - that any 'white space' on an EPR means that person is undeserving of a firewall 5, or the rater isn't trying hard enough to write a bullet.

Whatever happened to effective communication? Using only the words necessary to get the point across? People bitch and whine about how messed up the system is, yet nobody has the stones to say "Look, write 'em like I sees 'em, even if it means not filling up the entire block in the sentence"

:rolleyes:


I said that and the EPR was returned to me for corrections. I took it back and handed it in again and said there was nothing to creatively ink that would make the statement any stronger. I got a whole 30 minute speel about how i was screwing my troop how i wasnt giving him the best rating possible how i was setting him up for failure. I was like, look, the EPR is a firewall 5, it doesnt get any stronger? Well i was told they dont have to concur with my rating and that if it didnt get fluffed they wouldnt! Instead of screwing my guy over to prove a point i got out the thesaurus and changed out a few 10 dollar words for a few 50 dollar ones to fill in the space. Dumb as hell i agree!

Gunner007
06-01-2009, 11:10 PM
you have to have your utility blouse on to drive a polaris or gator.

Numrich
06-01-2009, 11:48 PM
SNCO's, especially Chief's, never take thier utility blouse (ABU Shirt) off on the flightline. Never, ever.

jason0926
06-02-2009, 12:04 AM
In Alaska, Flightline workers do not wear the MPF Jacket, AKA: the Parka.

Somebody beat me to it. To add, if you work at the hospital, you are gueranteed a cool green parka as opposed to a maintainer or other primarily outdoor job. PACAF :rolleyes:

And the fact that wearing a reflective belt during hours of Daylight during an exercise somehow makes you more visible.

AF Chief
06-02-2009, 12:40 AM
How about the moustache rules?
Os--absolutely not
Es--no BTZ, no awards

Maybe in the 80s...but, not today's AF. Hell, most of the people that go up for awards now is "package only" and don't require your presence at a board.

Hair down the middle was a 80s thing if I remember right.

AF Chief
06-02-2009, 12:41 AM
Remember Shoulder Boards? Chiefs would "highly encourage" you NOT to wear them if you were a Chief.

imported_LOAL-D
06-02-2009, 12:42 AM
We had some groovy sideburns and porn star mustaches,back in the day....

BRUWIN
06-02-2009, 02:04 AM
For those of a certain generation, parting your hair down the middle indicated that you indulged in recreational chemicals. I shit you not.

And if you drank grape soda along with it you could count on a piss test at least once a week.

BRUWIN
06-02-2009, 02:09 AM
That's hilarious to me, since when I was at Randolph there was a brand new 1st Sgt with a part STRAIGHT DOWN THE MIDDLE. While I thought it looked poindexter, it certainly was not out of regs, so I can't really understand that mentality of the CCMs that you're talking about.


This happenned in 1997. I really don't hear about it much now. Funny thing was I changed my doo not long after and spiked it all up. It seems to be the style now but I'm sure that would have done me in as a shirt back then.

Outback 1982
06-02-2009, 12:52 PM
Remember Shoulder Boards? Chiefs would "highly encourage" you NOT to wear them if you were a Chief.


Not just Chiefs, Recall the fact that “All SNCO's wear their stripes on their sleeves, not the shoulders" To be honest, if more followed this rule and actually wore their stripes, we would not have the issues that we have today. I long for the day when SNCO’s led and were taught how to lead, Management by Objective, or MBO was the rule of the day. As summed up in another forum, Today’s NCO’s are taught the art of being a Social Worker not a leader. Focus on the behavior, not the symptom used to be the foundation of leadership. What Happened???

smarg
06-02-2009, 01:02 PM
Not just Chiefs, Recall the fact that “All SNCO's wear their stripes on their sleeves, not the shoulders" To be honest, if more followed this rule and actually wore their stripes, we would not have the issues that we have today. I long for the day when SNCO’s led and were taught how to lead, Management by Objective, or MBO was the rule of the day. As summed up in another forum, Today’s NCO’s are taught the art of being a Social Worker not a leader. Focus on the behavior, not the symptom used to be the foundation of leadership. What Happened???

The disappearing values in society is what happened. Moral and ethical anarchy. 2009 was the beginning of the end...yes, I'm talking about the collapse of this country by mid-century, if not sooner.:(

Aitrus
06-02-2009, 01:31 PM
Unwritten rule: The sharper the uniform, the sharper the troop. Nothing could be more misleading than judging a person based on looks. Some of the most mis-aligned people I've ever met were those that looked the best. Unless you're a movie star, fashion model, or a politician, looks have no basis on how well you do your job. There is a standard that needs to be met, agreed, but going overboard doesn't prove anything (except maybe that you're so dyed-in-the-blue that you don't have a life).

Unwritten rule: If you make rank testing the first time around, you must really know your job. No, you just know how to study and test and probably had the new standard of 5s on your EPRs. Doesn't mean that you have the ability to apply your knowledge to everyday operations. What happened to the days when it was possible for you to not make rank the first time around even if you scored 100s?

Unwritten rule: Everybody should strive to the highest rank...just because it's the right thing to do. No, the right thing to do (read: Intregity First) is to do your job to the best of your ability. Higher rank should be the reward for a job well done, not the goal of a career.

Unwritten rule: The AFI is always right. This one's hit and miss. Tell me that the AFI is right on this one: A guy that goes through Ranger School can't wear the tab if he's not with a Ranger unit (an actual rule in the AFI).

imported_Bummed
06-02-2009, 01:40 PM
For those of a certain generation, parting your hair down the middle indicated that you indulged in recreational chemicals. I shit you not.

And that was when your supervisor filled the role of monitor. After a few monthly trips to the hospital, you were on the shit list.

smarg
06-02-2009, 02:17 PM
And that was when your supervisor filled the role of monitor. After a few monthly trips to the hospital, you were on the shit list.

Yeah, but back then the trick was mega doses of Vitamin C before the test to skew the results. It was quite a feat, but I know this to be true. ;)

imported_Modus
06-02-2009, 02:38 PM
Remember Shoulder Boards? Chiefs would "highly encourage" you NOT to wear them if you were a Chief.

Really? I always used to see Chiefs with those.

Rev Mike Large
06-02-2009, 03:20 PM
This happenned in 1997. I really don't hear about it much now. Funny thing was I changed my doo not long after and spiked it all up. It seems to be the style now but I'm sure that would have done me in as a shirt back then.

Yeah, that's why it's so funny to me. The Shirt I'm talking about is probably still at Randolph to this day, still with that Pep Boys looking doo. He was brand new as a Shirt in 2008, and why he wore his hair that way is far beyond my understanding... or beyond my caring, other than to laugh about it now.

TJMAC77SP
06-02-2009, 04:00 PM
Unwritten rule: The sharper the uniform, the sharper the troop. Nothing could be more misleading than judging a person based on looks. Some of the most mis-aligned people I've ever met were those that looked the best. Unless you're a movie star, fashion model, or a politician, looks have no basis on how well you do your job. There is a standard that needs to be met, agreed, but going overboard doesn't prove anything (except maybe that you're so dyed-in-the-blue that you don't have a life).

Agree with this one. As a cop I have seen flight chiefs give EFDs (days off) to the sharpest troop (best spit shine, creases ironed in fatigues, yeah I know that dates me but even ironed BDUs). When I became a flight chief I kept a list of atta-boys and a shit list. Learned that from one of the finest SNCOs ever (God Bless you Leon Nunez). When it came time to give a day off, the name came off the atta boy list.



Unwritten rule: If you make rank testing the first time around, you must really know your job. No, you just know how to study and test and probably had the new standard of 5s on your EPRs. Doesn't mean that you have the ability to apply your knowledge to everyday operations. What happened to the days when it was possible for you to not make rank the first time around even if you scored 100s?

Well, true but the smarter you are the better the chances you would make (if the intelligence is applied correctly) a better all around troop.


Unwritten rule: Everybody should strive to the highest rank...just because it's the right thing to do. No, the right thing to do (read: Intregity First) is to do your job to the best of your ability. Higher rank should be the reward for a job well done, not the goal of a career.

As an LT I knew once told me….”why should I be here if I can’t at least imagine myself as a general?”


Unwritten rule: The AFI is always right. This one's hit and miss. Tell me that the AFI is right on this one: A guy that goes through Ranger School can't wear the tab if he's not with a Ranger unit (an actual rule in the AFI).

Really? Goes counter to the Army’s rules on the Ranger tab and counter to previous AF rules regarding the wear of the tab. If you earn the tab you should be able to wear it with any uniform (Hell, tattoo the damn thing on your shoulder!).

Aitrus
06-02-2009, 04:48 PM
Well, true but the smarter you are the better the chances you would make (if the intelligence is applied correctly) a better all around troop.
The applied correctly part was the point I was trying to make.



Really? Goes counter to the Army’s rules on the Ranger tab and counter to previous AF rules regarding the wear of the tab. If you earn the tab you should be able to wear it with any uniform (Hell, tattoo the damn thing on your shoulder!).

Yep, this one sucks, and the AFI is flat-out wrong. 36-2903, Table 5.2., Rule 6. "US Army Air Assault Badge, Pathfinder Badge, Ranger Tab - Only while permananently assigned to and performing duties with other services. See Note 11." Note 11 says "This rule also applies to other badges or patches i.e. Army Combat Patches earned or awarded by sister service components. Upon PCS to an Air Force unit the member will remove them." The same statement also appears for the Parachute Riggers Badge, Combat Infantry, Combat Medical and CAB as well. Just my example of the AFI being wrong.

I'd love to see somebody try to take a Ranger's Tab off his shoulder. To me, if you earned it, you can wear it. Period. And no, I haven't earned any of the above, but I know several who have and are affected by this rule.

AF Chief
06-03-2009, 02:53 AM
Really? I always used to see Chiefs with those.

You probably did. I said it was "encouraged" not "mandatory".

Shrike
06-03-2009, 05:20 AM
Unwritten rule: The sharper the uniform, the sharper the troop. Nothing could be more misleading than judging a person based on looks. Some of the most mis-aligned people I've ever met were those that looked the best. Unless you're a movie star, fashion model, or a politician, looks have no basis on how well you do your job. There is a standard that needs to be met, agreed, but going overboard doesn't prove anything (except maybe that you're so dyed-in-the-blue that you don't have a life).


To tag on to that one: The quality of an individual's work output and their dedication to the USAF can be judged solely by the amount of hours they spend at work.

This one has always amused me, seeing that time management is taught at varying levels of PME. Yet if you apply those principles, you must be slacking.

Silver Fox
06-03-2009, 07:43 AM
1.) I have to wear my ribbons with my blue shirt, even when it's optional. Reason? Well, according to my first sergeant, "It's the sign of a slacker, and we don't have slackers in this unit!" Slacker? No. Just don't see the point in wearing a ribbon rack on my blues shirt when I have my service coat on. Actually, I only have one mandatory wear item. But if I walked around with no function badge or ribbons, I'd get reemed in a heart beat.

2.) The unwritten rule about 5 eprs being the norm.

3.) The unwritten rule that you can't submit everyone for a medal, and you're only authorized so many.

4.) The unwritten rule that you HAVE to submit someone for a medal or award, even if no one's earned it. So it's basically: No you can't submit everyone, even if they merit it, but you have to submit atleast one person even if no one merits it. ....

5.) The unwritten rule that as a senior NCO eventually you will win some sort of award that was basically given to you. You know.... NCO of the month or some b.s. You can't fool me lol, there's five E-7's in said unit, and you're telling me that this is competetive somehow? No. It's pretty much MSgt A gets it this month, MSgt H gets it next month.... it's laughable. Just fluff for an EPR.

6.) The unwritten rule that I'm supposed to volunteer for every bullshit opportunity that robs me of time to sleep as they come up.

7.) The unwritten rule that a college education makes you better at your job.

Silver Fox
06-03-2009, 07:53 AM
Unwritten rule: The sharper the uniform, the sharper the troop. Nothing could be more misleading than judging a person based on looks. Some of the most mis-aligned people I've ever met were those that looked the best. Unless you're a movie star, fashion model, or a politician, looks have no basis on how well you do your job. There is a standard that needs to be met, agreed, but going overboard doesn't prove anything (except maybe that you're so dyed-in-the-blue that you don't have a life).

Agreed. Case in point: I haven't received so much as an LOC in my entire career, but I lost a job to someone who felt the need to spend money to get their boots shined every day and poured a fortune into dry cleaning. I wasn't a dirtbag by any means, but you couldn't circumsize yourself on my creases, and my boots didn't look like paint on a new car. Apparently, to the guy hiring for the job, this was all that mattered. Even though the guy he picked over me had received punishment for playing basketball while he was supposed to be on duty. NICE!


Unwritten rule: If you make rank testing the first time around, you must really know your job. No, you just know how to study and test and probably had the new standard of 5s on your EPRs. Doesn't mean that you have the ability to apply your knowledge to everyday operations. What happened to the days when it was possible for you to not make rank the first time around even if you scored 100s?

Or neither. :p I didn't study for staff the first time around at all and made it. At the time, I knew the job I was doing, but I knew little about the careerfield as a whole. I didn't pick up that knowledge until AFTER I made it. I just sat down and picked the common sense answers.


Unwritten rule: Everybody should strive to the highest rank...just because it's the right thing to do. No, the right thing to do (read: Intregity First) is to do your job to the best of your ability. Higher rank should be the reward for a job well done, not the goal of a career.

AGREED! Hate to say it, but some people make good workers, and some make good managers. We can't all be the boss. If I were staying in, and I mean this absolutely, I don't think I'd want to make E-8 or E-9. I could. Damn I know I could, but I wouldn't get anything out of that. Yeah, I'd make more money, but I'd be an administrator and it'd be next to impossible to go into the field. Screw that. I'd be content to retire a master. With the way responsibility is moving up the ranks as they rob it from the lower echelons, they're going to be doing Staff and Tech's jobs here in ten years anyway.....


Unwritten rule: The AFI is always right. This one's hit and miss. Tell me that the AFI is right on this one: A guy that goes through Ranger School can't wear the tab if he's not with a Ranger unit (an actual rule in the AFI).

Agreed on this one. However, when it comes to AFIs governing my job, I follow it regardless of whether I agree or not unless it's a local instruction that I know I can overturn. Those other ones I don't harp on quite as much. And I hate that suddenly ranger rolling my hat has become an AF wide issue. But what's sadder is the AF guys whove been awarded Army Combat Action Badges can't wear them, but the AF wont give them AF Combat Action ribbons.... bullshit!

Silver Fox
06-03-2009, 07:55 AM
As an LT I knew once told me….”why should I be here if I can’t at least imagine myself as a general?”

LTs in Security Forces are in for a rude awakening. ;) Most won't make it to full bird. Let alone one star or above.




Really? Goes counter to the Army’s rules on the Ranger tab and counter to previous AF rules regarding the wear of the tab. If you earn the tab you should be able to wear it with any uniform (Hell, tattoo the damn thing on your shoulder!).

I think he was saying the same thing.

FLAPS
06-03-2009, 09:11 AM
Here's one:

Anybody IN a Maintenance Squadron (even those on staff and the Ops Officers who have no chance of getting dirty) will wear ABUs/BDUs on Mondays.

You're right, there is no reason why these people can't wear blues, but not all sqs follow this unwritten rule....just most. I'm in mx and my CC, Shirt and me (ops o) where Blues on Mondays. So does our entire sq staff. However, everytime I climb into my nasty "gator" to visit shops/flightline I risk getting dirty...especially during polen season. I also hate the fact I have no where to stow my line badge, pen, and foamies while wearing blues....but I guess I'll live.

technomage1
06-03-2009, 09:15 AM
To tag on to that one: The quality of an individual's work output and their dedication to the USAF can be judged solely by the amount of hours they spend at work.

This one has always amused me, seeing that time management is taught at varying levels of PME. Yet if you apply those principles, you must be slacking.

Oh, and the hours spent only count if they're after work. At one base, I used to show up at 0500 (work was supposed to start at 0730) yet I still got counseled (and took an EPR markdown) that I wasn't spending enough time at work since they didn't see me after hours. I finished every single task assigned to me and even took on more work than most people in the section.

FLAPS
06-03-2009, 09:25 AM
Unwritten rule: Everybody should strive to the highest rank...just because it's the right thing to do. No, the right thing to do (read: Intregity First) is to do your job to the best of your ability. Higher rank should be the reward for a job well done, not the goal of a career.


Integrity First? Seems more like "Excellence in all we Do" to me....but you're right. However, I think WAPS is a pretty fair way to balance job performance (if used correctly) with doing well on a test. Points from decs and EPRs (both performance related) combined with points scored on the test... Not a perfect system, but it's pretty damn good...

Shrike
06-03-2009, 09:44 AM
Oh, and the hours spent only count if they're after work. At one base, I used to show up at 0500 (work was supposed to start at 0730) yet I still got counseled (and took an EPR markdown) that I wasn't spending enough time at work since they didn't see me after hours. I finished every single task assigned to me and even took on more work than most people in the section.

Good point. I'm normally out of my office at COB each day unless something needs my immediate attention. But I'm in it 50-80 minutes before the start of the duty day. That time is somehow less impressive to some than time spent after work. :rolleyes:

CMSBROWN
06-03-2009, 01:52 PM
SNCO's, especially Chief's, never take thier utility blouse (ABU Shirt) off on the flightline. Never, ever.

I can't take mine off because of the AFI Tat rule....:eek:

TJMAC77SP
06-03-2009, 03:21 PM
LTs in Security Forces are in for a rude awakening. ;) Most won't make it to full bird. Let alone one star or above.

It has always been that way in the career field. He knew it but the point was that you should at least strive to get promoted. The effort shouldn't drive every task or action but it should be a goal



I think he was saying the same thing.

And I was agreeing with him while expressing my dismay at this change in wear rules. In my day the only restriction on the ranger tab was that it couldn't be worn on the service dress. Only on BDUs. Airborne and Air Assault could be worn but only if you could prove it and get it entered in your record.

On a rank related note. I have heard the refrain about just wanting to do the job your specialty calls for time and again. I had a staff sergeant who worked for me once who always told me (usually right after I got on his ass about overdue EPRs) that he was ‘just a street cop’ and that is all he wanted to do. Problem is that when you become an NCO you inherit responsibilities beyond that scope. I offered to allow him to remain ‘just a street cop’ but he didn’t like the idea of reverting to Senior Airman.

Gunner007
06-03-2009, 04:01 PM
Not just Chiefs, Recall the fact that “All SNCO's wear their stripes on their sleeves, not the shoulders" To be honest, if more followed this rule and actually wore their stripes, we would not have the issues that we have today. I long for the day when SNCO’s led and were taught how to lead, Management by Objective, or MBO was the rule of the day. As summed up in another forum, Today’s NCO’s are taught the art of being a Social Worker not a leader. Focus on the behavior, not the symptom used to be the foundation of leadership. What Happened???

but then its thinking like that which keeps every kid from getting a trophy... you meanie!

Gunner007
06-03-2009, 04:05 PM
1.) I have to wear my ribbons with my blue shirt, even when it's optional. Reason? Well, according to my first sergeant, "It's the sign of a slacker, and we don't have slackers in this unit!" Slacker? No. Just don't see the point in wearing a ribbon rack on my blues shirt when I have my service coat on. Actually, I only have one mandatory wear item. But if I walked around with no function badge or ribbons, I'd get reemed in a heart beat.
....


Remember in the movie "office space", the whole issue she had with 37 pieces of flair! LOL Well if you want the standard to be 37 then change the standard! If they want you to wear medals on your shirt then make that the standard. If it really is a sign of exellence and pride then should that be the norm? Shouldnt they then have the rule amended? I mean hell, everyone at ACC wants us to look professional right? Yeah, that should be a super easy sell!

imported_kayano905
06-04-2009, 01:23 AM
Lt's saluting each other, i've no kidding witnessed a 1Lt chewing out a 2Lt for not saluting them. The best way to describe this situation comes from a maj. I worked for "saluting amongst lt's is like honor amongst whores..."

Couldn't agree more :)

Combat correspondent
06-04-2009, 12:23 PM
I think all enlisted should wear ribbons on blues.

Measure Man
06-04-2009, 12:32 PM
I think all enlisted should wear ribbons on blues.

Why?... .

Shrike
06-04-2009, 12:36 PM
Why?... .

A better question would be "How does what he thinks constitute an unwritten rule?"

FCMVP#30
06-04-2009, 01:17 PM
STEP promotinos: That you have to test a certain amount of time (and obviously fail) before you can be put in for STEP promotion.

College education: If you already have your CCAF and you are pursuing a degree outside of your career field you are wasting your's and the AF's time and supervision shouldn't support it or is looked down upon.

Measure Man
06-04-2009, 01:17 PM
A better question would be "How does what he thinks constitute an unwritten rule?"

well okay...I'm just curious where and why people get the proclamations of what "should be" come from.

I don't wear ribbons on my blue shirt...so was just curious why this offends someone...

I don't get it..the reg says you can do 'A' or ou can do 'B'...then some people arrive at some conclusion that you aren't a "good SNCO" unless you do 'A'....I just wonder how and why they come to that...some people feel pretty strongly about stuff like that...

imported_WILDJOKER5
06-04-2009, 02:17 PM
STEP promotinos: That you have to test a certain amount of time (and obviously fail) before you can be put in for STEP promotion.

College education: If you already have your CCAF and you are pursuing a degree outside of your career field you are wasting your's and the AF's time and supervision shouldn't support it or is looked down upon.

Never heard of that one. I saw a guy get put in for STEP before he even tested once for Tech, it was with drawn when they found out he made it the first time though.

Shrike
06-04-2009, 02:26 PM
Never heard of that one. I saw a guy get put in for STEP before he even tested once for Tech, it was with drawn when they found out he made it the first time though.

I can't access the AFI right now, but I believe it's written in there that STEP should not be used as a BTZ program for NCOs, and that the program is meant as a promotion system for those who have fallen behind their peers but are deserving of advancement.

It doesn't say it CAN'T be used that way, but that it shouldn't.

So I guess it's a written but flexible rule...

FCMVP#30
06-04-2009, 02:54 PM
Never heard of that one. I saw a guy get put in for STEP before he even tested once for Tech, it was with drawn when they found out he made it the first time though.

The Command Chief at base X said you could not put a person in for STEP unless they had test at least 3 times, even though the program requires no minimum. Our squadron didnt have anyone that met that criteria so we couldn't even put in our most deserving Airman. It's supposed to reward those that are exceptional performers, not people that have fallen behind their peers, even though that's the way it's typically used.

FCMVP#30
06-04-2009, 03:01 PM
I can't access the AFI right now, but I believe it's written in there that STEP should not be used as a BTZ program for NCOs, and that the program is meant as a promotion system for those who have fallen behind their peers but are deserving of advancement.

It doesn't say it CAN'T be used that way, but that it shouldn't.

So I guess it's a written but flexible rule...

I wish I could find the message that came out the same year we had the problem that specifically stated no minimum testing requirement, but our Command Chief still wouldnt look at our most deserving troops package.

takthekak
06-04-2009, 03:05 PM
One of the biggest programs that uses unwritten rules is the Decoration program. There are so many Squadron, Group, Wing requirements it sickens me...like the time periods required and requiring all firewall 5's...3 years for a PCA dec, wearing MSgt for at least a year before being put in for an MSM, the list goes on and on...

Shrike
06-04-2009, 03:05 PM
The Command Chief at base X said you could not put a person in for STEP unless they had test at least 3 times, even though the program requires no minimum. Our squadron didnt have anyone that met that criteria so we couldn't even put in our most deserving Airman. It's supposed to reward those that are exceptional performers, not people that have fallen behind their peers, even though that's the way it's typically used.
From AFI 36-2502

2.7. Promoting Under Stripes for Exceptional Performers (STEP). This program supplements existing airmen promotion programs and is designed to accommodate unique circumstances that, in the commander’s judgment, clearly warrant promotion. It is intended to provide a means to promote airmen for compelling, although perhaps not quantifiable, reason. Isolated heroic acts or specific achievements should not be the sole basis for promotion under this program. Commanders should guard against using STEP as an enlisted below-the-promotion-zone (BPZ) program. Commanders should give WAPS the opportunity to promote our top performers and incline toward promoting deserving hard chargers who are behind their peers when comparing years of service to the number of stripes they wear. STEP promotions are to grades SSgt, TSgt, and MSgt. Airmen are not supplementally considered for STEP. DOR and effective date are the date the selection authority announces the promotion.



Emphasis mine. So again, not an unwritten rule.

Rev Mike Large
06-04-2009, 03:49 PM
I can't access the AFI right now, but I believe it's written in there that STEP should not be used as a BTZ program for NCOs, and that the program is meant as a promotion system for those who have fallen behind their peers but are deserving of advancement.

It doesn't say it CAN'T be used that way, but that it shouldn't.

So I guess it's a written but flexible rule...

I agree -- it's for proven performers with the experience and competence necessary for the next rank but who may not have the testing ability to get there...

As for the ribbons on blues... I'm all for what the AFI says -- all or none, if I'm not mistaken. I personally prefer, by far, to wear my rack because I'm proud of every medal/ribbon I've earned. Some more than others, of course. But if I get a dec and am called upon to be in blues prior to adjusting my ribbon rack, I like the option to go without vs scrambling to update.

FCMVP#30
06-04-2009, 03:51 PM
From AFI 36-2502

2.7. Promoting Under Stripes for Exceptional Performers (STEP). This program supplements existing airmen promotion programs and is designed to accommodate unique circumstances that, in the commander’s judgment, clearly warrant promotion. It is intended to provide a means to promote airmen for compelling, although perhaps not quantifiable, reason. Isolated heroic acts or specific achievements should not be the sole basis for promotion under this program. Commanders should guard against using STEP as an enlisted below-the-promotion-zone (BPZ) program. Commanders should give WAPS the opportunity to promote our top performers and incline toward promoting deserving hard chargers who are behind their peers when comparing years of service to the number of stripes they wear. STEP promotions are to grades SSgt, TSgt, and MSgt. Airmen are not supplementally considered for STEP. DOR and effective date are the date the selection authority announces the promotion.



Emphasis mine. So again, not an unwritten rule.

It's an unwritten rule that you are required to test a certain # of times before you are eligible for STEP. Again many times it's give to people who fall behind their peers, regardless of whether they are "hard chargers". Most of the people I have seen given a stripe definately don't fit the "hard charger" moniker. There is no written standard that says you must test x # of times to be eligible for STEP. It's commander descretion, so if the commander feels a person is exception performer it doesn't matter how many times they have tested.

I don't have a problem with people that have difficulty testing and are deserving of promtion getting their next stripe, but I have a problem with someone who is more deserving, and had been decieded he is more derserving by squadron leadership not being eligible to even put their package in because they haven't tested x # of times.

Shrike
06-04-2009, 04:06 PM
It's an unwritten rule that you are required to test a certain # of times before you are eligible for STEP. Again many times it's give to people who fall behind their peers, regardless of whether they are "hard chargers". Most of the people I have seen given a stripe definately don't fit the "hard charger" moniker. There is no written standard that says you must test x # of times to be eligible for STEP. It's commander descretion, so if the commander feels a person is exception performer it doesn't matter how many times they have tested.

I don't have a problem with people that have difficulty testing and are deserving of promtion getting their next stripe, but I have a problem with someone who is more deserving, and had been decieded he is more derserving by squadron leadership not being eligible to even put their package in because they haven't tested x # of times.

I can see that part, and understand. I posted the section of the AFI to show that your statement "It's supposed to reward those that are exceptional performers, not people that have fallen behind their peers, even though that's the way it's typically used." was the polar opposite of the intent of the program.

The "must test 3 times" could be based off of actual numbers, given a literal interpretation of the AFI. If it takes the average SSgt 3 times testing to make TSgt, or the average TSgt 3 times testing to make MSgt, etc., then the policy might be based off of the statement in the AFI "... behind their peers when comparing years of service to the number of stripes they wear." I don't know if those are the actual averages or not...just trying to posit a theory as to why they chose that number. I don't agree with that policy, though, as I don't think it can be applied as an even standard across all jobs - some career fields just progress more slowly than others.

ringjamesa
06-04-2009, 04:52 PM
No white males will be given a shaving waiver....

imported_Modus
06-04-2009, 05:03 PM
LOL, oh man.

imported_af87
06-05-2009, 03:05 AM
As a prior enlisted officer who came in the AF when STEP actually meant "Stripes To Exceptional Performers", I really detest the new STEP guidance/philosophy. Why shouldn't we have a BTZ program for NCOs? We have one for officers. We even have one for airmen.

With EPR inflation and the rigidly defined "this rank = this medal" philosophy, where is the motivation for the top performers to really shine? In 99% of the units out there, a "s***-hot" TSgt and an "average" SrA are both going to get a "5" EPR and a Commendation Medal. It doesn't make sense. How can I as a supervisor "take care" of my best performers if we are locked in this paradigm? How do I distinguish between my top performers and my average performers? Yes, we have "NCO of the Qtr/Yr", and other awards. But what if my top performers have no interest in going to college or donating blood, or coaching Little League, etc.? What if they just want to accomplish the MISSION as best as they can? Why shouldn't we be able to "STEP" promote someone like that, just because they haven't tested for a rank X number of times? I hate that the STEP program is being used as a "personnel management" tool. How do we know that these NCOs, "just don't test well"? Do we track their study habits? Are they studying at all? Seems awfully subjective. And wouldn't this lead to, "Well, I won't study because I'm a really great worker, the boss likes me, and once I've tested three times, I'll probably get a STEP."?

I wish we would go back to the 9-point scale of the APR system. I'd be much more likely to give someone an "8" than a "4" because the impact on WAPS is less, but it gives me the ability to separate my good performers from my outstanding perfomers without crushing their EPR score. (27 pts vs. 15 pts for all "4"s vs. all "8"s) And I'm tired of being told by the Chief that has 5 or 6 MSMs that I can't give my "s***-hot" TSgt an MSM because they are just a TSgt.

My two cents for what it's worth. I'm going change all this when I'm CSAF though. ;-)

FCMVP#30
06-05-2009, 11:24 AM
As a prior enlisted officer who came in the AF when STEP actually meant "Stripes To Exceptional Performers", I really detest the new STEP guidance/philosophy. Why shouldn't we have a BTZ program for NCOs? We have one for officers. We even have one for airmen.

With EPR inflation and the rigidly defined "this rank = this medal" philosophy, where is the motivation for the top performers to really shine? In 99% of the units out there, a "s***-hot" TSgt and an "average" SrA are both going to get a "5" EPR and a Commendation Medal. It doesn't make sense. How can I as a supervisor "take care" of my best performers if we are locked in this paradigm? How do I distinguish between my top performers and my average performers? Yes, we have "NCO of the Qtr/Yr", and other awards. But what if my top performers have no interest in going to college or donating blood, or coaching Little League, etc.? What if they just want to accomplish the MISSION as best as they can? Why shouldn't we be able to "STEP" promote someone like that, just because they haven't tested for a rank X number of times? I hate that the STEP program is being used as a "personnel management" tool. How do we know that these NCOs, "just don't test well"? Do we track their study habits? Are they studying at all? Seems awfully subjective. And wouldn't this lead to, "Well, I won't study because I'm a really great worker, the boss likes me, and once I've tested three times, I'll probably get a STEP."?

I wish we would go back to the 9-point scale of the APR system. I'd be much more likely to give someone an "8" than a "4" because the impact on WAPS is less, but it gives me the ability to separate my good performers from my outstanding perfomers without crushing their EPR score. (27 pts vs. 15 pts for all "4"s vs. all "8"s) And I'm tired of being told by the Chief that has 5 or 6 MSMs that I can't give my "s***-hot" TSgt an MSM because they are just a TSgt.

My two cents for what it's worth. I'm going change all this when I'm CSAF though. ;-)

Bingo! Well said.

Measure Man
06-05-2009, 11:35 AM
As a prior enlisted officer who came in the AF when STEP actually meant "Stripes To Exceptional Performers", I really detest the new STEP guidance/philosophy. Why shouldn't we have a BTZ program for NCOs? We have one for officers. We even have one for airmen.

With EPR inflation and the rigidly defined "this rank = this medal" philosophy, where is the motivation for the top performers to really shine? In 99% of the units out there, a "s***-hot" TSgt and an "average" SrA are both going to get a "5" EPR and a Commendation Medal. It doesn't make sense. How can I as a supervisor "take care" of my best performers if we are locked in this paradigm? How do I distinguish between my top performers and my average performers? Yes, we have "NCO of the Qtr/Yr", and other awards. But what if my top performers have no interest in going to college or donating blood, or coaching Little League, etc.? What if they just want to accomplish the MISSION as best as they can? Why shouldn't we be able to "STEP" promote someone like that, just because they haven't tested for a rank X number of times? I hate that the STEP program is being used as a "personnel management" tool. How do we know that these NCOs, "just don't test well"? Do we track their study habits? Are they studying at all? Seems awfully subjective. And wouldn't this lead to, "Well, I won't study because I'm a really great worker, the boss likes me, and once I've tested three times, I'll probably get a STEP."?

I wish we would go back to the 9-point scale of the APR system. I'd be much more likely to give someone an "8" than a "4" because the impact on WAPS is less, but it gives me the ability to separate my good performers from my outstanding perfomers without crushing their EPR score. (27 pts vs. 15 pts for all "4"s vs. all "8"s) And I'm tired of being told by the Chief that has 5 or 6 MSMs that I can't give my "s***-hot" TSgt an MSM because they are just a TSgt.

My two cents for what it's worth. I'm going change all this when I'm CSAF though. ;-)

The answer to your problem is to fix the EPR, not the STEP.

We changed to EPR because of the inflation of the APR. 9-point scale, 5-point scale or go/no-go will not fix inflation...we need a control mechanism, such as a quota system, to manage inflation.

Of course a start would be to disconnect EPR ratings from the decoration process...that was what really drove inflation to begin with.

Smeghead
06-05-2009, 12:46 PM
...we need a control mechanism, such as a quota system, to manage inflation.

Ugh, wouldn't like to see quotas. How about we just hold people accountable for what they're writing? Make the back up those claims in the bullets? I've written one 2 EPR in my career and had to justify every line, yet I can write a firewall-5 say the troop walks on waters, heals the sick and jumps tall buildings in a single bound-and no one questions it? That's where the inflation comes in, no one questions what's being written.

Measure Man
06-05-2009, 01:02 PM
Ugh, wouldn't like to see quotas. How about we just hold people accountable for what they're writing? Make the back up those claims in the bullets? I've written one 2 EPR in my career and had to justify every line, yet I can write a firewall-5 say the troop walks on waters, heals the sick and jumps tall buildings in a single bound-and no one questions it? That's where the inflation comes in, no one questions what's being written.

Accountable how? Does that mean if you write someone a 5 and I think he's a 4, I hold you accountable and mark you down? What if you think he's a 4 and I think he's a 5...I hold you accountable again? We end up where we are right now. Then you have all these people complaining when their chief or commander wants them to change a rating...or threaten to rate them down because of it...

I think the problem is that most people genuinely believe the people they are writing on deserve to be promoted...want to see them promoted...etc. Justification just amounts to more bullets...or a memo to go with the bullets...it's all nothing.

The real proliferation of 'firewall 5s' came about when wing CCs more or less started requiring them for decorations. The goal was to limit decorations, but the result was that most people started getting firewall 5s. People would lean toward a firewall so they wouldn't burn the decoration bridge 3 years from now.

Quotas would absolutely force you to decide between those ready and those who are more ready...

For every 10 SSgts...you get to give three 5s...five 4s and two 3s. You can still give a 1 or 2 for the criminals, but don't have to. All SSgt EPRs get written in the same month.

Yes, there will be times when someone gets "screwed" out of a 5 because they just PCS'd in or whatever...if the person is truly outstanding, he will get a lot more 5s than 4s over the course of his career (very few, if any, people will always get 5s)...but those truly outstanding people will benefit the most from a quota system...since they will be able to differentiate themselves from the mediocre people who are currently getting the same 5s they are.

There are a few downsides to a quota system...but I think the downsides to our current system are much worse.

Aitrus
06-05-2009, 03:57 PM
I don't think it's Decorations pushing EPR inflation, I think it's the promotion system that's doing it. Give a guy a 4 and he might miss the cutoff by the difference in points, so supervisors give them the 5 so they don't feel responsible for holding their troop back.

ringjamesa
06-05-2009, 04:05 PM
Accountable how? Does that mean if you write someone a 5 and I think he's a 4, I hold you accountable and mark you down? What if you think he's a 4 and I think he's a 5...I hold you accountable again? We end up where we are right now. Then you have all these people complaining when their chief or commander wants them to change a rating...or threaten to rate them down because of it...

I think the problem is that most people genuinely believe the people they are writing on deserve to be promoted...want to see them promoted...etc. Justification just amounts to more bullets...or a memo to go with the bullets...it's all nothing.

The real proliferation of 'firewall 5s' came about when wing CCs more or less started requiring them for decorations. The goal was to limit decorations, but the result was that most people started getting firewall 5s. People would lean toward a firewall so they wouldn't burn the decoration bridge 3 years from now.

Quotas would absolutely force you to decide between those ready and those who are more ready...

For every 10 SSgts...you get to give three 5s...five 4s and two 3s. You can still give a 1 or 2 for the criminals, but don't have to. All SSgt EPRs get written in the same month.

Yes, there will be times when someone gets "screwed" out of a 5 because they just PCS'd in or whatever...if the person is truly outstanding, he will get a lot more 5s than 4s over the course of his career (very few, if any, people will always get 5s)...but those truly outstanding people will benefit the most from a quota system...since they will be able to differentiate themselves from the mediocre people who are currently getting the same 5s they are.

There are a few downsides to a quota system...but I think the downsides to our current system are much worse.

Just to play Devil's Advocate...what if they are ALL dirtbags/criminals?

Measure Man
06-05-2009, 04:18 PM
Just to play Devil's Advocate...what if they are ALL dirtbags/criminals?

It is a maximum quota, not a max/min.

you don't HAVE to give 5s to anyone...

Measure Man
06-05-2009, 04:21 PM
I don't think it's Decorations pushing EPR inflation, I think it's the promotion system that's doing it. Give a guy a 4 and he might miss the cutoff by the difference in points, so supervisors give them the 5 so they don't feel responsible for holding their troop back.

mmmm...a little, yes. Inflation really got out of hand though when the decs started being tied to it, especially with the front markdowns.

Rev Mike Large
06-05-2009, 05:16 PM
What if you have a small shop and supervise two SSgts. A max of one of them can get a 5? What would be the no kidding percentage, and if what you have doesn't fit can you round up or down, etc.

In some ways, I'm fascinated by your quota argument -- and I think I'd rather see us try something like that than do nothing at all with the current situation. But in the scenario I just mentioned above, I could forsee serious morale and camaraderie implications if you have two people and they both know only one of them could possibly get the best rating. If they both care and are both sharp, you'd probably start seeing backstabbing and ass kissing (both of which, if noticed, would make me LESS likely to rate either of them a 5...). Then it becomes a self-defeating cycle.

imported_BRAVO10000
06-05-2009, 05:33 PM
As a prior enlisted officer who came in the AF when STEP actually meant "Stripes To Exceptional Performers", I really detest the new STEP guidance/philosophy. Why shouldn't we have a BTZ program for NCOs? We have one for officers. We even have one for airmen.

With EPR inflation and the rigidly defined "this rank = this medal" philosophy, where is the motivation for the top performers to really shine? In 99% of the units out there, a "s***-hot" TSgt and an "average" SrA are both going to get a "5" EPR and a Commendation Medal. It doesn't make sense. How can I as a supervisor "take care" of my best performers if we are locked in this paradigm? How do I distinguish between my top performers and my average performers? Yes, we have "NCO of the Qtr/Yr", and other awards.

I guess I like the idea of BTZ for NCOs, but there's some danger associated.

I think FIRST we have to establish that promotion IS NOT A REWARD. A GREAT Tech Sergeant might be a sh*tty SNCO, based on what a SNCO is supposed to do. Is it a reward, then, to take a guy that loves working as the ranking technician and move him into a management-only position?


But what if my top performers have no interest in going to college or donating blood, or coaching Little League, etc.? What if they just want to accomplish the MISSION as best as they can? Why shouldn't we be able to "STEP" promote someone like that, just because they haven't tested for a rank X number of times? I hate that the STEP program is being used as a "personnel management" tool. How do we know that these NCOs, "just don't test well"? Do we track their study habits? Are they studying at all? Seems awfully subjective. And wouldn't this lead to, "Well, I won't study because I'm a really great worker, the boss likes me, and once I've tested three times, I'll probably get a STEP."?

If your top performers aren't interested in significant self improvement or sacrificing their time for the betterment of the community that they live in, then they aren't really READY to be a next-level Airman...that isn't me saying so, it is the Performance Report that we do on them every year that says so. Besides, we can get top performers easily...we call them contractors. Airmen should be held to a higher standard - not just in their occupation, but in their profession (insert Spartan chant here). Else, we end up with one-dimensional career worker-bees and no one to lead them.

Personally, I wouldn't want to be STEP promoted...there's a stigma associated with it that says (a) I am academically unfit...good thing we don't measure THAT every year, and/or (b) I am 50% careerist, 50% vinegar/water cleansing solution. No thanks, I'd prefer to EARN my stripes. :D


I wish we would go back to the 9-point scale of the APR system. I'd be much more likely to give someone an "8" than a "4" because the impact on WAPS is less, but it gives me the ability to separate my good performers from my outstanding perfomers without crushing their EPR score. (27 pts vs. 15 pts for all "4"s vs. all "8"s) And I'm tired of being told by the Chief that has 5 or 6 MSMs that I can't give my "s***-hot" TSgt an MSM because they are just a TSgt.

My two cents for what it's worth. I'm going change all this when I'm CSAF though. ;-)

I remember the 9-point APR...my first 2 or 3 evals were the old AF 908s. It was inflated then too. When we went to EPRs, there was an attempt to eliminate that inflation. The verbal-but-unwritten quota for 5s was set at 5%. Guess who got them? Yep, choads and yes-men mostly. Bigger picture - there's probably no cascading effect from a single 3 EPR, but what if you have 20 people and 18 of them are 3s? Right or wrong, the message sent is that you or your SNCO aren't effectively mentoring...not saying that is true, but there's Command Chiefs everywhere that would say that it was true. I'd bet my paycheck against a cold beer that it removes both of you from consideration for strat. at the Group level and up.

Measure Man
06-05-2009, 06:23 PM
What if you have a small shop and supervise two SSgts. A max of one of them can get a 5? What would be the no kidding percentage, and if what you have doesn't fit can you round up or down, etc.

It would roll up to the squadron or group level. (Sort of like SrA BTZ...if you have 7, you get to promote one, if you don't you go to the base board.)

Allow senior raters to exempt truly unique units (i.e. those that are selectively manned) from the quota.


In some ways, I'm fascinated by your quota argument -- and I think I'd rather see us try something like that than do nothing at all with the current situation. But in the scenario I just mentioned above, I could forsee serious morale and camaraderie implications if you have two people and they both know only one of them could possibly get the best rating. If they both care and are both sharp, you'd probably start seeing backstabbing and ass kissing (both of which, if noticed, would make me LESS likely to rate either of them a 5...). Then it becomes a self-defeating cycle.

Promotions are competitive...not sure there is any way around that.

I do see that backstabbing could become a problem theoretically. I don't think I've seen that a lot in SrA BTZ, which is also competitive...or SNCO stratifications...so I don't think it'd be a major issue. I could guess that a lot of people would be happy to be among the "solid 4s". Sort of how a lot of people now say "I'm not political enough to make chief"...only it would be "I'm not political enough to get 5s"...though, I think by and large, it would remain about duty performance and not politics. Solid 4s should easily get you to MSgt, with a mix of 4s and 5s being SMSgt and CMSgt in 'average time' material. Anyone who was consistently a 5 their whole career would be your fastburner CMSgts...if there are any at all.

It may or may not be the same as the guys that make it now...now, you have to first make MSgt on high PFE/SKT test scores, no matter how outstanding your duty performance is. I've seen more than a couple truly outstanding performers who simply didn't make MSgt fast enough to be set up for SMSgt and CMSgt.

Plus, I think if I ever caught someone intentionally sabotaging someone else...we'd be discussing Art 15 punishment, not whether or not they were a 5.

imported_2T2_1997
06-05-2009, 09:06 PM
[QUOTE=Measure Man;237201] Solid 4s should easily get you to MSgt, with a mix of 4s and 5s being SMSgt and CMSgt in 'average time' material. Anyone who was consistently a 5 their whole career would be your fastburner CMSgts...if there are any at all.
QUOTE]

Here is where you're quota left it's blindside open: A "consistent" 5 is plausible how? You said yourself it would not be uncommon to get screwed out of a 5 due to a pcs. You're quota for all the good points, lacks consistency. Meaning, I could be a consistent airmen in your quota system that is inconsistent.

Measure Man
06-05-2009, 09:30 PM
[QUOTE=Measure Man;237201] Solid 4s should easily get you to MSgt, with a mix of 4s and 5s being SMSgt and CMSgt in 'average time' material. Anyone who was consistently a 5 their whole career would be your fastburner CMSgts...if there are any at all.
QUOTE]

Here is where you're quota left it's blindside open: A "consistent" 5 is plausible how? You said yourself it would not be uncommon to get screwed out of a 5 due to a pcs.

There will be some that probably would have an entire career of 5s. I think someone that gets three 4s and seven 5s...is a consistent 5. Or eight out of ten...whatever. Or if someone got that one 4 when they PCS'd in...and have all the rest 5s...that is also a consistent 5. I'm not sure how any of these are implausible?


You're quota for all the good points, lacks consistency. Meaning, I could be a consistent airmen in your quota system that is inconsistent.

Huh?

imported_pheenix
06-05-2009, 11:46 PM
I havent heard of any of these I will say I got f'ed out of a commendation medal because " I have not had staff on Long enough" that coming from the worst e-9 trying to make e-10 i ever seen. after 3 "appeals" from my leadership he said one last time he isnt a staff long enough its either achievement or nothing

yet the shitbag staff who was skating the whole year away because hw as getting out and didnt do dick got his .

that pretty much ruiend my view of the usaf for a long time and hence my reason why im leaving this current career field

E-10? What's that?

imported_Modus
06-06-2009, 02:31 AM
How long do you have to have Staff on at your bases to get a Comm.?

ender9492
06-06-2009, 05:05 PM
Here's an aviator unwritten rule: The leather A-2 Jacket.
According the AFI 36-2903, any rated officer, or career enlisted aviator is eligible to wear it, but the unwritten rule is that you can't wear it until you've flown for a certain amount of time, or reached a certain occupational level.

ChaplainC
06-06-2009, 06:51 PM
Uniform wear...

Everyone had that muscle bound M.T.I. who loved wearing shirts six times too small for him...
Enlisted are allowed to wear extremely tight uniforms if they so choose, but an officer is not.

Measure Man, I like your idea on the quota. Perhaps you should send that into the folks and see if they send you some cash back. Sure seems like it would work far better than the current system, and would likely be more fair to those who truly deserve notice.

Numrich
06-07-2009, 12:39 AM
Here's an aviator unwritten rule: The leather A-2 Jacket.
According the AFI 36-2903, any rated officer, or career enlisted aviator is eligible to wear it, but the unwritten rule is that you can't wear it until you've flown for a certain amount of time, or reached a certain occupational level.

Thats a good one. But I understand it to be that Fighter Jocks wear the M1 Green Jacket unless you are an
0-6. All heavy and sub-sonic jocks can wear it anytime.

imported_pheenix
06-07-2009, 03:20 AM
No white males will be given a shaving waiver....

I've called several white male tech school students out and 9/10 of them produced a waiver on the spot. The 1/10 came back clean shaven after lunch.

ChaplainC
06-08-2009, 02:13 PM
The only time I have ever seen someone get a shaving waver was for a laceration on the face. They did tell us, though, that African Americans could have them more often based on having in-grown hairs or something like that. They told us that it affected them more often than any other race.

smarg
06-08-2009, 04:31 PM
Here's an aviator unwritten rule: The leather A-2 Jacket.
According the AFI 36-2903, any rated officer, or career enlisted aviator is eligible to wear it, but the unwritten rule is that you can't wear it until you've flown for a certain amount of time, or reached a certain occupational level.

The space/missile weenies wear their flight suits and leather jackets, and they are not rated.

Gunner007
06-08-2009, 05:02 PM
I guess I like the idea of BTZ for NCOs, but there's some danger associated.
....

If your top performers aren't interested in significant self improvement or sacrificing their time for the betterment of the community that they live in, then they aren't really READY to be a next-level Airman...that isn't me saying so, it is the Performance Report that we do on them every year that says so. Besides, we can get top performers easily...we call them contractors. Airmen should be held to a higher standard - not just in their occupation, but in their profession (insert Spartan chant here). Else, we end up with one-dimensional career worker-bees and no one to lead them.

Personally, I wouldn't want to be STEP promoted...there's a stigma associated with it that says (a) I am academically unfit...good thing we don't measure THAT every year, and/or (b) I am 50% careerist, 50% vinegar/water cleansing solution. No thanks, I'd prefer to EARN my stripes. :D

....

I AM academically unfit/challenged! I dont know that i consider it a stigma. I have been Amn, MX pro, and Gunner of the year as well as won every other award working hard could get me. I have no problem doing hands on work but i dont test well, never have! You have something you need fixed i can do that. You need me to mentor and lead my guys, i can do that... You need me to read something and take a test, thats a little more of a struggle for me. I read fine, but my comprehension is shit!
Come to find out after almost 19 years in, i do actually have a reading comprehension problem. It got identified when my son was diagnosed with ADHD. I think those are crappy ass excuse labels for other problems but they tried to convince me they are passed from parent to child. I still think they are crap excuses but the reading comprehension problem is exactly the same problem my son has so i will accept that as far as that part goes maybe thats a realistic diagnoses. I asked my dad and he said he actually has had the same problem his whole life but noone cared back then.
Do i do my job better than the status quo? Yes i do! Can i fill a Ops supt billet? Yes, and i have! I have consistently proven i can do the work of a E-7 but i cant pass a test to get the stripe. Should someone hand it to me? I dont know, i always say you shouldnt get anything you havent worked for and earned and whether or not someone like me has earned it is open to interpretation. I wish someone would have found out my problem or identified it much earlier in my career but it wasnt meant to be.
I do believe there are people out there with a great ability to lead! I also believe there are people in that group who are mechanically inclined and learn more through tactile methods than audio or visual methods. While i totally understand earning everything you have and agree with it, the question is what constitutes earning a stripe?
In MX the bums got sent to MOC to answer phones and the radio and had nothing but time to sit around reading the PFE. The rest of their AFSC was on the line working their asses off and didnt get in essence paid to study. So who tested higher? Typically the people we booted from the flightline! So who really EARNED the stripe? The guy turning wrenches 12+ hours a day who went home to tired to study or the guy who sat on his ass answering the phone and talking on the radio who had time at work to study?

EARNED is relevant to who you ask i guess!

Gunner007
06-08-2009, 05:10 PM
Here's an aviator unwritten rule: The leather A-2 Jacket.
According the AFI 36-2903, any rated officer, or career enlisted aviator is eligible to wear it, but the unwritten rule is that you can't wear it until you've flown for a certain amount of time, or reached a certain occupational level.

No actually this goes back to when some of us fliers werent pipelines through KAFB. When i began flying i was a special duty weapons guy. I didnt goto Kirtland for formal training we just went to our gaining unit and got qualified and flew. The AFI said you had to have been on AO's for 1 year in order to get the leather jacket.

Today a guys AO's get cut early in the pipeline so by the time he gets to his field unit he has been on AO's for more than a year. So today, a guy pretty much walks into a unit and gets his A-2 jacket handed to him. What some people feel is that by changing the way things were done guys were skirting the intent of the AFI's. So they want to make a unwritten rule that says you have to be flying 1 year past your first checkride, which is a year. That equates out to what it would be if there were no pipeline and you came straight to the unit.

I wasnt aware 36-2903 had made mention of award criteria for the jacket, i know it was in one of the 11 series AFI's forever, 11-401 maybe? Its not that the rule is unwritten its that people are creatures of habit and although something changes on paper it sometimes takes a while to implement in reality. I have been in units where the CC mandated if you were a new flier you couldnt get your jacket until 1 year after your checkride or 1 deployment, whichever came first. Like most other things, he is the CC so what he says typically goes, right or wrong.

imported_Modus
06-08-2009, 06:14 PM
How long do you have to have Staff on at your bases to get a Comm.?

I would like to hear some of your comments...

imported_BRAVO10000
06-08-2009, 07:00 PM
I AM academically unfit/challenged! I dont know that i consider it a stigma. I have been Amn, MX pro, and Gunner of the year as well as won every other award working hard could get me. I have no problem doing hands on work but i dont test well, never have! You have something you need fixed i can do that. You need me to mentor and lead my guys, i can do that... You need me to read something and take a test, thats a little more of a struggle for me. I read fine, but my comprehension is shit!
Come to find out after almost 19 years in, i do actually have a reading comprehension problem. It got identified when my son was diagnosed with ADHD. I think those are crappy ass excuse labels for other problems but they tried to convince me they are passed from parent to child. I still think they are crap excuses but the reading comprehension problem is exactly the same problem my son has so i will accept that as far as that part goes maybe thats a realistic diagnoses. I asked my dad and he said he actually has had the same problem his whole life but noone cared back then.
Do i do my job better than the status quo? Yes i do! Can i fill a Ops supt billet? Yes, and i have! I have consistently proven i can do the work of a E-7 but i cant pass a test to get the stripe. Should someone hand it to me? I dont know, i always say you shouldnt get anything you havent worked for and earned and whether or not someone like me has earned it is open to interpretation. I wish someone would have found out my problem or identified it much earlier in my career but it wasnt meant to be.
I do believe there are people out there with a great ability to lead! I also believe there are people in that group who are mechanically inclined and learn more through tactile methods than audio or visual methods. While i totally understand earning everything you have and agree with it, the question is what constitutes earning a stripe?
In MX the bums got sent to MOC to answer phones and the radio and had nothing but time to sit around reading the PFE. The rest of their AFSC was on the line working their asses off and didnt get in essence paid to study. So who tested higher? Typically the people we booted from the flightline! So who really EARNED the stripe? The guy turning wrenches 12+ hours a day who went home to tired to study or the guy who sat on his ass answering the phone and talking on the radio who had time at work to study?

EARNED is relevant to who you ask I guess!

With your point (and apparent frustration) understood...why does the same logic not apply to PT, for example? Do we make people ineligible for promotion based on their lack of physical ability in anaerobic capability (running)? You bet we do. You could be a guy that could carry TWO buddies in some dual firemans carry while firing returning fire out of your backside...wouldn't matter if you can't run that 1.5 miles in time. Think anyone is going to STEP my azz if I don't PT test well? Tell me, then, that there isn't a stigma associated with that.

I am NOT saying that academic testing is the best way to determine who is better qualified to lead - perhaps my comments were poorly phrased or pointed. But being honest - there are a LOT of STEP promotees that were/are one-dimensional, plain and simple. They were great as technicians but never bought into the AF's up-or-out methodology. I think that too many times a halo standard is applied...so while you are probably right that there are many qualified to lead that don't test well or suffer a reading comprehension shortfall, there are too many others that simply lack ambition and refuse to grow or mature within the ranks.

Usually, a reading comprehension problem reveals itself during CDCs, them being self-study and all. A low-to-poor or failing score, in my experience, generally led to a referral to the Education Center for a Reading Comprehension evaluation (although I hear that they recently canned this program). We didn't hammer some kid or his supervisor until we could be sure that he had all the tools he needed.

One more point of clarity - I am not saying that someone should blast through the ranks as quickly as possible. But they SHOULD grow, mature and take on bigger challenges throughout their career.

ChaplainC
06-09-2009, 01:58 PM
With your point (and apparent frustration) understood...why does the same logic not apply to PT, for example? Do we make people ineligible for promotion based on their lack of physical ability in anaerobic capability (running)? You bet we do. You could be a guy that could carry TWO buddies in some dual firemans carry while firing returning fire out of your backside...wouldn't matter if you can't run that 1.5 miles in time. Think anyone is going to STEP my azz if I don't PT test well? Tell me, then, that there isn't a stigma associated with that.



Good point, and well said.

Gunner007
06-09-2009, 07:30 PM
...

Usually, a reading comprehension problem reveals itself during CDCs, them being self-study and all. A low-to-poor or failing score, in my experience, generally led to a referral to the Education Center for a Reading Comprehension evaluation (although I hear that they recently canned this program). We didn't hammer some kid or his supervisor until we could be sure that he had all the tools he needed.

One more point of clarity - I am not saying that someone should blast through the ranks as quickly as possible. But they SHOULD grow, mature and take on bigger challenges throughout their career.

You are absolutely right, USUALLY. I scored 1 point higher than necessary to pass my CDC test way back in the day. Lucky for me when i became a gunner it was special duty and i never had to go through Kirtland because i dont think i would have made it. I tried my best to always remember that when i was at the school house instructing! I realized long ago i had some issue i just didnt know what. I realized it was harder for me to keep up with book learning than others so i tried hard but managed to just tread water. On the flightline however, i was a shining star that could win any award i decided to go for. So long as i stayed in a AFSC that is 90% hands on i knew i could shine so thats what i have done.

You are right again i think in that if you failed the PT test they would drop kick you. There are many programs now that help identify people with learning issues but because i would try my hardest and usually squeek by with the very minimum passing grade i guess i slipped through the cracks. But, they would send you to fat boy camp before they kicked you out if you failed the PT test, just as they would send you for education testing if you failed CDC's.

What if you were the guy who always scored at the very bottom of passing the PT test though and you could as you said carry 2 dudes and return fire from your taint... Do you think they would send you for fat boy camp or would you just slip by time and time again?

I agree, with a lot of the people on here, STEP is in some ways a crutch and i am not saying i should be handed a stripe. I know of many STEPs given since i been in and have only ever known 2 guys who actually deserved one who got one. Both had learning issues similiar to mine and both were shining stars on the line but always near the bottom when it came to books. If we deleted the program would we lose those kinds of guys? Do we promote more shit bags than quality guys under STEP? I dont know, sometimes i think we do so i agree with most of what people say regarding it.

I had a chance for a STEP of my own a few years back. My SNCO's groomed me with MAJCOM level awards all year. I had several combat saves on some very interesting missions that year also to help. But as i have tended to do, i stood my ground for one of my guys who should have received a BS W/ Valor and instead got an LOR. I was told the package fed the shredder for my efforts. I didnt see the package but was told of it and was told it was destroyed... Some people just dont know how to shut up and color, lucky for the USAF they will soon be rid of one more of those types of people.

ringjamesa
06-10-2009, 03:11 PM
in blues your hat will be tucked in your belt on the Right side. that is how we were taught at Basic but there is no rule saying you can't have it on the left side...just that it won't come above your belt...

BENDER56
06-10-2009, 04:28 PM
in blues your hat will be tucked in your belt on the Right side. that is how we were taught at Basic but there is no rule saying you can't have it on the left side...just that it won't come above your belt...

Actually, that one is a written rule. From the AFI, Table 2.1, Line 11:

if not
worn, tuck under the belt on wearer’s left side, between first
and second belt loops; cap will not fold over belt.

Measure Man
06-10-2009, 05:17 PM
Actually, that one is a written rule. From the AFI, Table 2.1, Line 11:

if not
worn, tuck under the belt on wearer’s left side, between first
and second belt loops; cap will not fold over belt.

yeah...what he said. I remember it always being on the left.

I thought they'd removed it from the AFI for awhile, but it sure as heck is in there right where Bender said.

Rev Mike Large
06-10-2009, 07:11 PM
yeah...what he said. I remember it always being on the left.

I thought they'd removed it from the AFI for awhile, but it sure as heck is in there right where Bender said.

A few years ago, we had a SrA wearing it on his right side and me and the MSgt approached him tactfully and told him it should be on the left. He responded respectfully (a very sharp troop overall) and said he was taught in basic that it was on the right side. So we told him to carry on until we could investigate the matter in the AFI.

At the time, memory tells me there was something in there about it should be on the left side (as Bender quoted), but there was an option for the right side if a cell phone was worn on the belt on the left.

Does this ring a bell for anyone else? It's been a couple of years, so I could be remembering it wrong -- but I think that's what we found out. And since he did have a cell phone on the left, we left him alone about it and gave him props for being familiar with the reg and being correct.

imported_LOAL-D
06-10-2009, 07:21 PM
yeah...what he said. I remember it always being on the left.

I thought they'd removed it from the AFI for awhile, but it sure as heck is in there right where Bender said.

Just stick it in the lower right leg unzipped pocket of your flight suit.....Oops wrong thread.:tongue:

TJMAC77SP
06-10-2009, 07:50 PM
Just stick it in the lower right leg unzipped pocket of your flight suit.....Oops wrong thread.:tongue:

What is it the brave French do?

Oops, wrong thread again.

Kegler
06-11-2009, 12:02 AM
yeah...what he said. I remember it always being on the left.

I thought they'd removed it from the AFI for awhile, but it sure as heck is in there right where Bender said.

The version prior to the current 2903...about 1997 era...it could be on either side. The one before that was left side....now back to left. Love the full circles we wander in

19D-2T2
06-11-2009, 02:20 AM
The version prior to the current 2903...about 1997 era...it could be on either side. The one before that was left side....now back to left. Love the full circles we wander in

I think the pilots call that a flat spin:)

imported_BRAVO10000
06-11-2009, 03:58 AM
What if you were the guy who always scored at the very bottom of passing the PT test though and you could as you said carry 2 dudes and return fire from your taint... Do you think they would send you for fat boy camp or would you just slip by time and time again?

I agree, with a lot of the people on here, STEP is in some ways a crutch and i am not saying i should be handed a stripe. I know of many STEPs given since i been in and have only ever known 2 guys who actually deserved one who got one. Both had learning issues similiar to mine and both were shining stars on the line but always near the bottom when it came to books. If we deleted the program would we lose those kinds of guys? Do we promote more shit bags than quality guys under STEP? I dont know, sometimes i think we do so i agree with most of what people say regarding it. .

Interesting example, now that 80 is quickly becoming the new 75 (culturally speaking)...CCs are creating their own "marginal" category, reinforcing the halo standard that is currently applied to PT. You're right, though - I happen to be one of thoise PT bubble boys, because I run like Redd Foxx walked (it's actually very entertaining to watch from what I am told). But this thread isn't about PT, so the soapbox stays stashed on this context... :D

I have seen a few STEPs in my career...unfortunately, the majority of the time these people were more into polishing knobs that doing good work. My favorite example is someone working IT but is "just not technical" by their own assessment. They were technical enough for that 6 SRB when it was being handed out!

imported_LOAL-D
06-11-2009, 04:10 AM
Interesting example, now that 80 is quickly becoming the new 75 (culturally speaking)...CCs are creating their own "marginal" category, reinforcing the halo standard that is currently applied to PT. You're right, though - I happen to be one of thoise PT bubble boys, because I run like Redd Foxx walked (it's actually very entertaining to watch from what I am told). But this thread isn't about PT, so the soapbox stays stashed on this context... :D

I have seen a few STEPs in my career...unfortunately, the majority of the time these people were more into polishing knobs that doing good work. My favorite example is someone working IT but is "just not technical" by their own assessment. They were technical enough for that 6 SRB when it was being handed out!

Bravo...Bravo... the only STEPS I've seen are for dudes working for commanders playing step-and fetch-it!

ChaplainC
06-11-2009, 05:32 AM
I think that if you check the AFI again...(for the flight cap on the belt bit that is) The current AFI says that you may wear it on either side so long as it does not come up above the belt more than an inch, or an inch and a half, something like that. I DO Specifically recall that we were taught in OTS that it can be worn on either side. Personally I think it should be on the left, but that is only because it looks better that way in my mind. Firstly because the right side has the extra loop, and second because with the rank showing (as per regs) the open end of the cap facing forward looks really bad in my mind...

MACHINE666
06-11-2009, 10:48 AM
This is something that irritates the crap outta me, that is definitely an 'unwritten' rule of the Air Force - religion.

If I try to go on to my computer from work and want to look at crop circle websites, it gets blocked by the Internet Police as being "Alternative Spirituality/Occult" but I can then double-back and look up quotes from the Bible or the Koran without any problems whatsoever. I guess Jesus and Allah are cool with Uncle Sam, but Marvin the Martian didn't give us a proper reach-around when he came down from Uranus and tried paying us a visit. :rolleyes:

Shrike
06-11-2009, 11:02 AM
This is something that irritates the crap outta me, that is definitely an 'unwritten' rule of the Air Force - religion.

If I try to go on to my computer from work and want to look at crop circle websites, it gets blocked by the Internet Police as being "Alternative Spirituality/Occult" but I can then double-back and look up quotes from the Bible or the Koran without any problems whatsoever. I guess Jesus and Allah are cool with Uncle Sam, but Marvin the Martian didn't give us a proper reach-around when he came down from Uranus and tried paying us a visit. :rolleyes:

What was Marvin the Martian doing on Uranus?

MACHINE666
06-11-2009, 11:04 AM
What was Marvin the Martian doing on Uranus?

Wiping out Klingons!

:D :D :D :D :D

TJMAC77SP
06-11-2009, 11:09 AM
This is something that irritates the crap outta me, that is definitely an 'unwritten' rule of the Air Force - religion.

If I try to go on to my computer from work and want to look at crop circle websites, it gets blocked by the Internet Police as being "Alternative Spirituality/Occult" but I can then double-back and look up quotes from the Bible or the Koran without any problems whatsoever. I guess Jesus and Allah are cool with Uncle Sam, but Marvin the Martian didn't give us a proper reach-around when he came down from Uranus and tried paying us a visit. :rolleyes:

Is that the reason they give for the url being blocked...."Alternative Spirituality/Occult" ? If so, that is just plain stupid. Now there are other reasons I could see for blocking sites like that (if they have unfiltered videos posted or advertising which is a threat, etc.)

MACHINE666
06-11-2009, 11:11 AM
That's what the Big Brother/We're Watching You message said.....

TJMAC77SP
06-11-2009, 11:14 AM
That's what the Big Brother/We're Watching You message said.....

Seems like every day someone posts something on these threads that makes me glad I am retired and very sad for my Air Force

MACHINE666
06-11-2009, 11:36 AM
Well if I wanted to be a turd, I could always tell this to my friend who is the Pagan POC here at Ramstein. She leads the Wiccan religious services at the Base Chapel and is actively involved in the community. Knowing her, she'd scream bloody murder all the way to the folks at MEO and demand that Comm redefine their filter program. ;)

But yes, I too feel the pain of the ridiculousness and stupidity that the Air Force is being subjected to. It's like the PTA on steroids took control or something and it's only getting worse. :(

ringjamesa
06-11-2009, 12:45 PM
I think that if you check the AFI again...(for the flight cap on the belt bit that is) The current AFI says that you may wear it on either side so long as it does not come up above the belt more than an inch, or an inch and a half, something like that. I DO Specifically recall that we were taught in OTS that it can be worn on either side. Personally I think it should be on the left, but that is only because it looks better that way in my mind. Firstly because the right side has the extra loop, and second because with the rank showing (as per regs) the open end of the cap facing forward looks really bad in my mind...

Your logic makes no sense. If worn on the right, the open end is to the back when the little triangle where officers wear the rank is facing out. If worn on the LEFT the cap would open to the front. I don't know where you got your pants but I don't have an extra loop on either side... Anyway, in the last 14 years, I have seen exactly ONE person with their flight cap on their left side. I am in a job that requires fairly constant bules wear-UOD. So now I am supposed to have my gov cell clipped on the left and tuck my hat underneath it? Stupid, stupid stupid. At least I don't have to tuck my blues pants into my lowquarters.....yet.

NFCstang
06-11-2009, 12:50 PM
At least I don't have to tuck my blues pants into my lowquarters.....yet.

Now you've done it

Measure Man
06-11-2009, 01:41 PM
I think that if you check the AFI again...(for the flight cap on the belt bit that is) The current AFI says that you may wear it on either side so long as it does not come up above the belt more than an inch, or an inch and a half, something like that. ...

I checked it again...still says left:


Flight Cap(Men’s)
X X X Slightly to the wearer's right with vertical crease of the cap
in line with the center of the forehead, in a straight line with
the nose; the cap extends approximately 1 inch from the
eyebrows in the front, opening of cap is to the rear; if not
worn, tuck under the belt on wearer’s left side, between first
and second belt loops; cap will not fold over belt. Cap has
dark-blue colored edge braid for enlisted personnel,
silver-colored edge braid for general officers, and silver and
blue in a diamond pattern edge braid for all other officers;
all shades and material of hat are authorized with any
uniform combination. Mandatory for all male personnel.
Cap will not be tucked under epaulets.

ringjamesa
06-11-2009, 02:24 PM
I checked it again...still says left:

I saw that too. I would swear that it wasn't in there about 5-6 years ago because one of my buddies is a leftie so he had his hat on the L side and I asked him about it. He said yeah they teach the right side at basic but there was no rule specifying it. So of course I looked and it wasn't there.

I guess this is another case of incorrect info at Basc....

Measure Man
06-11-2009, 02:27 PM
I saw that too. I would swear that it wasn't in there about 5-6 years ago because one of my buddies is a leftie so he had his hat on the L side and I asked him about it. He said yeah they teach the right side at basic but there was no rule specifying it. So of course I looked and it wasn't there.

I guess this is another case of incorrect info at Basc....

I dunno...I was always taught left...and always put mine on the left out of habit.

...but yes, I do remember that the rule had gone to either side for awhile.

ChaplainC
06-11-2009, 02:34 PM
Well if I wanted to be a turd, I could always tell this to my friend who is the Pagan POC here at Ramstein. She leads the Wiccan religious services at the Base Chapel and is actively involved in the community. Knowing her, she'd scream bloody murder all the way to the folks at MEO and demand that Comm redefine their filter program. ;)

I agree with you. If the reason that you are not permitted to look at something is because it is "occult" that is ridiculous. Something that may seem cult-ish to me may be exactly what you are looking for in religion, and your chaple should stand up for you on that. For goodness sake, Christ was considered to be a cult leader in his day. Probably one of these holyer than thou religious zellots has marked that sight, rather than a person with any intelligence and common sense.


Your logic makes no sense. If worn on the right, the open end is to the back when the little triangle where officers wear the rank is facing out. If worn on the LEFT the cap would open to the front. I don't know where you got your pants but I don't have an extra loop on either side... Anyway, in the last 14 years, I have seen exactly ONE person with their flight cap on their left side. I am in a job that requires fairly constant bules wear-UOD. So now I am supposed to have my gov cell clipped on the left and tuck my hat underneath it? Stupid, stupid stupid. At least I don't have to tuck my blues pants into my lowquarters.....yet.

Ring, you made me actually go and look at the thing and check to be certain... No, the rank is worn on the wearers left side of the flight cap. When you have the flight cap on your belt the side with the triangle is supposed to be facing you, so I am accurate in that, but mistaken in what Measure Man mentioned. Sorry my friend.


I checked it again...still says left:

Thanks. Very interesting. They had taught us all in OTS that it said either side, so I am shocked that they were wrong. Typically you expect to count on those folks to be spot on when they tell you something.


OH, and another one, Cops should wear combat boots with their blues. Had a few weeks in Space Command when they were trying to look all dressy (how you dress up F.E. Warren I am not sure) and they made the cops get all up in the blues, and ascot, they looked really sharp I must admit. But one young LT made his flight wear low quarters the entire time, would not let them blouse their blues like they are supposed to do. It was his wright to do that, but man does a guy in white gloves and ascot look stupid with low quarters on...

ringjamesa
06-11-2009, 02:43 PM
OH, and another one, Cops should wear combat boots with their blues. Had a few weeks in Space Command when they were trying to look all dressy (how you dress up F.E. Warren I am not sure) and they made the cops get all up in the blues, and ascot, they looked really sharp I must admit. But one young LT made his flight wear low quarters the entire time, would not let them blouse their blues like they are supposed to do. It was his wright to do that, but man does a guy in white gloves and ascot look stupid with low quarters on...

Actually, anyone can wear combat boots with blues if they so desire. Had someone in an MPF do it once and someone said something but were out of line because the AFI says you can. The only ones that I can tell that are supposed to bluse their trousers in blues etc are SERE, Pararescue, CRO, Combat Control, STO, TACP, Air-Weather Service Parachutists, and the like (table 3.6 note 1). For SF the applicable rule is;

Gate guards wear basic uniform; however, the MAJCOM may authorize base entry controllers and MAJCOM elite guards to wear the following uniforms:
a. Service Dress Uniform: Beret with SF flash, bloused boots with white laces or low quarters, black leather belt without MAJCOM crest.
b. Light blue shirt: Beret with SF flash, bloused boots with white laces or low quarters, plain white scarf, black leather belt without MAJCOM crest.

table 3.4 note 6

ChaplainC
06-11-2009, 03:19 PM
Right ring.

That is correct. This particular guy would not let his flight wear the boots though. In actuality you can wear cowboy boots in your blues if you want, so long as they are all black, then they conform. I have not seen anyone do it, but I know it is legal, and I have heard of one person who did do that.

As for the bloused boots, that was my point, is that this particular flight was not allowed to wear boots and blouse their blues at the gate, that was my point.

The other point was that, other than that flight, I have never seen gate guards wearing lowquarters when they were at the gates, hence the unwritten rule nature of the discussion.

Capt Alfredo
06-11-2009, 04:20 PM
Right ring.

That is correct. This particular guy would not let his flight wear the boots though. In actuality you can wear cowboy boots in your blues if you want, so long as they are all black, then they conform. I have not seen anyone do it, but I know it is legal, and I have heard of one person who did do that.

As for the bloused boots, that was my point, is that this particular flight was not allowed to wear boots and blouse their blues at the gate, that was my point.

The other point was that, other than that flight, I have never seen gate guards wearing lowquarters when they were at the gates, hence the unwritten rule nature of the discussion.

I used to work with a guy who wore cowboy boots with his blues. He also had a moustache, so he was one rebel of a captain...

technomage1
06-11-2009, 04:24 PM
This is something that irritates the crap outta me, that is definitely an 'unwritten' rule of the Air Force - religion.

If I try to go on to my computer from work and want to look at crop circle websites, it gets blocked by the Internet Police as being "Alternative Spirituality/Occult" but I can then double-back and look up quotes from the Bible or the Koran without any problems whatsoever. I guess Jesus and Allah are cool with Uncle Sam, but Marvin the Martian didn't give us a proper reach-around when he came down from Uranus and tried paying us a visit. :rolleyes:

I've noticed something similar in the BX, too. Christian, Jewish, and Muslim books are in the "Religion" section, but a few years back the books on Wicca were moved to "Spirituality" due to a customer complaint.

I'm not Wiccan, but let me tell you the BX got a complaint right back from me about the move.

TJMAC77SP
06-11-2009, 04:59 PM
Serious question..........

What is the fundamental difference between religion and spirtuality?

booyey
06-11-2009, 05:10 PM
Yeah, that's why it's so funny to me. The Shirt I'm talking about is probably still at Randolph to this day, still with that Pep Boys looking doo. He was brand new as a Shirt in 2008, and why he wore his hair that way is far beyond my understanding... or beyond my caring, other than to laugh about it now.

He's still here. Saw him today....

BENDER56
06-11-2009, 08:41 PM
I think that if you check the AFI again...(for the flight cap on the belt bit that is) The current AFI says that you may wear it on either side so long as it does not come up above the belt more than an inch, or an inch and a half, something like that. I DO Specifically recall that we were taught in OTS that it can be worn on either side. Personally I think it should be on the left, but that is only because it looks better that way in my mind. Firstly because the right side has the extra loop, and second because with the rank showing (as per regs) the open end of the cap facing forward looks really bad in my mind...

We used to be able to wear it on either side until the 2006 revision. I found the 2002 revision of 36-2903 in my files and it said: "if not worn, tuck under the belt on either side, between first and second belt loops; cap will not fold over belt."

NFCstang
06-12-2009, 07:00 AM
I used to work with a guy who wore cowboy boots with his blues. He also had a moustache, so he was one rebel of a captain...

HAve him killed

ChaplainC
06-12-2009, 06:42 PM
I've noticed something similar in the BX, too. Christian, Jewish, and Muslim books are in the "Religion" section, but a few years back the books on Wicca were moved to "Spirituality" due to a customer complaint.

I'm not Wiccan, but let me tell you the BX got a complaint right back from me about the move.

That makes me wonder if perhaps it was not moved based on a request from a Wiccan. Otherwise I fully agree with you.



Serious question..........

What is the fundamental difference between religion and spirtuality?

In this instance I would say that the difference would be organization or not. IE Religion is organized, and not all "religious" (I.E. go to church meetings, claim a specific faith, and so forth) people are very spiritual. Where as Spiritual people (I.E. close to God (which ever god they claim) and generally moved by experiences they believe to be supernatural) do not always attend a church.

I know of plenty of people who claim to be "Good Christians" but would not lift their index finger to help a person out, or be loving and kind to the others who occupy this world. Even Chaplains and preachers I have met are sometimes like that. (talk about being in the wrong job then!)


Does that help?

ChaplainC
06-12-2009, 06:43 PM
We used to be able to wear it on either side until the 2006 revision. I found the 2002 revision of 36-2903 in my files and it said: "if not worn, tuck under the belt on either side, between first and second belt loops; cap will not fold over belt."


Thanks! That would be why I had it wrong. Goodness who the heck has to get in there and change such stupid things all the time?

ringjamesa
06-12-2009, 06:52 PM
And why change it to the opposite of what they teach kids in basic?

TJMAC77SP
06-12-2009, 07:03 PM
I know of plenty of people who claim to be "Good Christians" but would not lift their index finger to help a person out, or be loving and kind to the others who occupy this world. Even Chaplains and preachers I have met are sometimes like that. (talk about being in the wrong job then!)


Does that help?

Please don't take me wrong Chap........but no. I think people attach differences to the words that aren't as clear to me as others.

Oh well, I sincerely appreciate the effort.

Measure Man
06-12-2009, 07:10 PM
That makes me wonder if perhaps it was not moved based on a request from a Wiccan. Otherwise I fully agree with you.




In this instance I would say that the difference would be organization or not. IE Religion is organized, and not all "religious" (I.E. go to church meetings, claim a specific faith, and so forth) people are very spiritual. Where as Spiritual people (I.E. close to God (which ever god they claim) and generally moved by experiences they believe to be supernatural) do not always attend a church.?

"Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world." (James 1:27)

But Hey Chappy...while I have your attention:

Our latest version of "The Little Brown book" tells me I have to maintain spiritual readiness. How would you advise an atheist such as myself on how to do this?

imported_LOAL-D
06-12-2009, 08:12 PM
"Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world." (James 1:27)

But Hey Chappy...while I have your attention:

Our latest version of "The Little Brown book" tells me I have to maintain spiritual readiness. How would you advise an atheist such as myself on how to do this?

Just be ready if Jesus suddenly pops up in your office and says, "Let's go MM."

ringjamesa
06-13-2009, 01:57 AM
I don't care if it rains or freezes...long as I got a Plastic Jesus, sittin on the dashboard of my car.

Measure Man
06-13-2009, 04:41 AM
I don't care if it rains or freezes...long as I got a Plastic Jesus, sittin on the dashboard of my car.

I can go a hundred miles an hour...as long as got my mighty power...riding on the dashboard of my carrrrrr

imported_LOAL-D
06-13-2009, 04:46 AM
I can go a hundred miles an hour...as long as got my mighty power...riding on the dashboard of my carrrrrr

he he I love that song....

I dont care if the winds are scary...long as I got my Virgin Mary...up there on the dashboard of my car...


and an "I support the Troops" yellow magnet on the back of my minivan...

ChaplainC
06-13-2009, 05:55 AM
But Hey Chappy...while I have your attention:

Our latest version of "The Little Brown book" tells me I have to maintain spiritual readiness. How would you advise an atheist such as myself on how to do this?


Well, I do not think that this is the right place or time, but if you would like I can PM you and we can discuss it...

technomage1
06-13-2009, 07:15 AM
Well, I do not think that this is the right place or time, but if you would like I can PM you and we can discuss it...

Or you two could start a separate thread, I think this would be a worthwhile discussion as I was wondering the same thing myself.

TJMAC77SP
06-15-2009, 11:26 AM
and an "I support the Troops" yellow magnet on the back of my minivan...



Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh don't get me started. For most, their 'support' for the troops begins and ends with those magnets.

CrustySMSgt
06-15-2009, 01:01 PM
yeah...what he said. I remember it always being on the left.

I thought they'd removed it from the AFI for awhile, but it sure as heck is in there right where Bender said.

I'm pretty sure it used to say on either side, between the 1st & second belt loop... but then they made the pants with the 2 loops on the right too close together to put the hat... which pretty much ruled it out as an option.

Filterbing
06-17-2009, 08:54 AM
Here is a great unwritten rule that needs correcting. not life or death but it looks stupid and is insulting to our nations flag.

The about face from formations.

If you were to read the drill and ceremonies regulation AFM 36-2203, you would find there is nothing written that says you should do an about face when dismissed from a formation. The reg states that you should break ranks and leave the area. It does not tell you to perform an additional movement that I for one percieve (when performed during reveille/retreat) as an insult to our flag. I have received 2 answers when i asked my superiors as to why thi is happening.

The first explanation that I received (during my first 4 years in 96-2000) was. You would do an about face when dismissed from speaking with the commander in a formal setting. Hence, when the squadron commander gives the command dismissed, you should about face and then break ranks. I would then reply: if that were true, then maybe I should call the area to attention or just salute on my own while in a formal ceremony when I see the commander. By those rules I could justify it because I would do that in another setting. I explained that would not be correct and that we have rules for how to behave in and out of formation. Nothing changed...

The second answer came later on in my career. That answer was that the NCOA told us to do it. I am not exaggerating that. There is no reasoning given, just simply monkey see monkey do. I believe this answer came about due to the passing of time and it’s entry by tradition into the PME curriculum. So after years of doing somethng wrong, this has no made itto training not only PME but basic traingi as well.

This movement wasn't taught to me in basic or my 7 months of tech school. It just showed up when I went to my first base. I, for one, refuse to do it. If I'm directed by someone of higher rank? Then of course I'll do it. I will not do it just because everyone else does. I carry a reference page to every retreat/reveille and simply stand fast, wait for the idiots to stop turning around and then I walk off like I'm supposed to. Almost everytime someone tries to enlighten me. I always ask " have you read the drill and ceremonies manual?" The answer is always no.

imported_BigNasty82476
06-17-2009, 09:45 AM
Very good point Filterbing. I often wondered why in the hell we do that as well. Maybe one of the Chiefs on here can enlighten us.

TJMAC77SP
06-17-2009, 02:03 PM
Because it presents a more military looking appearance to the breakup of a formation????

Is it really high on your 'pisses me off' radar.........reallly ??..............really?

This thread seems to have exhausted all the points requiring any thought.

Filterbing
06-17-2009, 03:13 PM
The topic says unwritten rule.

It's an unwritten rule. This is one that bugs me. There have been many listed already

After 10 years of hearing people tell me I'm wrong, it starts to eat at you. Just the same as watching the first Sgt give the command present arms while you are in parade rest.

Would you accept people making up rules elsewhere. Like say reading a T.O. "this T.O. say this nut should tighted to 80 in pounds but I'll add 10 more because I think it will be better."

Also the about face is not more uniform. all it does is delay the scattering. It actually looks worse.

technomage1
06-17-2009, 03:31 PM
The topic says unwritten rule.

It's an unwritten rule. This is one that bugs me. There have been many listed already

After 10 years of hearing people tell me I'm wrong, it starts to eat at you. Just the same as watching the first Sgt give the command present arms while you are in parade rest.

Would you accept people making up rules elsewhere. Like say reading a T.O. "this T.O. say this nut should tighted to 80 in pounds but I'll add 10 more because I think it will be better."

Also the about face is not more uniform. all it does is delay the scattering. It actually looks worse.

Fliterbing, you have every right to post.

Having said, that, I was always taught to about face and take 1 step, so I guess I never thought about it. I don't know if there is a better way or that it's any worse than just scattering. Personally, the 1 time I got told just to scatter it felt really weird.

TJMAC77SP
06-17-2009, 04:42 PM
The topic says unwritten rule.

It's an unwritten rule. This is one that bugs me. There have been many listed already

After 10 years of hearing people tell me I'm wrong, it starts to eat at you. Just the same as watching the first Sgt give the command present arms while you are in parade rest.

Would you accept people making up rules elsewhere. Like say reading a T.O. "this T.O. say this nut should tighted to 80 in pounds but I'll add 10 more because I think it will be better."

Also the about face is not more uniform. all it does is delay the scattering. It actually looks worse.


First off, I agree with Tech, you do have the right to post........................and I have the right to offer an opinion on whether it adds to the discussion.

Secondly, anyone who told you that the about face is required was wrong and you were right. Twice, because it is an unwritten 'rule'.

Thirdly, if done properly (i.e. on the command 'fall out') the about face is certainly more uniform than the clusterfuck of just walking away in any direction.

Fourthly (is that a word?)....the 1sgt who gave you 'present arms' from a position of parade rest obviously didn't do well in drill while at any PME class in his/her career.

Lastly, my point still stands...............is this worth getting even a little upset at?

Years ago I made a comment to a friend that I hated (yes I used the word hated) people who didn't iron down the collar when wearing the short sleeve blue shirt with no tie. I thought it looked sloppy and unmilitary. My friend just looked at me (being one of those people) and asked..........."really you hate those people"?. Kind of makes you look at what really bothers you and what doesn't. If the about face in formation is that big a deal, you are living large. Enj

BRUWIN
06-17-2009, 05:03 PM
Very good point Filterbing. I often wondered why in the hell we do that as well. Maybe one of the Chiefs on here can enlighten us.

In the early Army Calvery days we they fought the Indians and then one day many years later it was ruled that AF Chief's couldn't have Indian busts in thier office. The AF Chief's then said "screw it...just for that I'm gonna about face every time I'm dismissed from a formation".

The rest is history.

TJMAC77SP
06-17-2009, 05:20 PM
In the early Army Calvery days we they fought the Indians and then one day many years later it was ruled that AF Chief's couldn't have Indian busts in thier office. The AF Chief's then said "screw it...just for that I'm gonna about face every time I'm dismissed from a formation".

The rest is history.

Sounds right to me.

Now stnad up and salute your Sitting Bull portrait!!

fufu
07-14-2009, 09:26 PM
Unwritten rule: Chicks will always get special treatment.

BadBender
07-15-2009, 04:50 AM
I wasn't sure wether to post this under the "dumb AF rules" or " Unwritten rules" so here goes.

At my base they constantly hound us to be club members and I am one by choice. What gets me is if I am a club member, paying my dues with every one else why are all the front parking spaces reserved for the following: Wing CC,Brig General, Any General Officer, Group CC, Colonel, Colonel, Colonel, Colonel, Colonel, Colonel, SQ Commander (any), any Lt, CCM, CMSgt, CMSgt, CMSgt, CMSgt, CMSgt, Annual Award Winner, Quarterly Award winner, Honor Guard, Retiree, Expectant Mothers, Civillian Volunteer, handicap, handicap, handicap, handicap, handicap? You end up parking at the far corner of the parking lot or in another parking lot because so many spaces are reserved. The walk is not a problem however when so many other "special people" get special perks and you don't you kind of feel like you are not valued as a dues paying member. The same can be said, maybe to a lesser degree, about the BX and Commissary. No dues but still a walk.

Silver Fox
07-15-2009, 04:52 AM
I wasn't sure wether to post this under the "dumb AF rules" or " Unwritten rules" so here goes.

At my base they constantly hound us to be club members and I am one by choice. What gets me is if I am a club member, paying my dues with every one else why are all the front parking spaces reserved for the following: WIng CC,Brig General, Any General Officer, Group CC, Colonel, Colonel, Colonel, Colonel, Colonel, Colonel, SQ Commander (any), any Lt, CCM, CMSgt, CMSgt, CMSgt, CMSgt, CMSgt, Annual Award Winner, Quarterly Award winner, Honor Guard, Retiree, Expectant Mothers, Civillian Volunteer, handicap, handicap, handicap, handicap, handicap? You end up parking at the far corner of the parking lot or in another parking lot because so many spaces are reserved. The walk is not a problem however when so many other "special people" get special perks and you don't you kind of fell like you are not valued as a dues paying member. The same can be said, maybe to a lesser degree, about the BX and Commissary. No dues but still a walk.


Wow. Very valid point. I can see at hospitals and commissaries etc. sure, but for a paying club member.... that shouldn't matter. There should only be parking for "club members" and everyone else. You pay your dues just like General Shmo and Chief Schmuck.

BadBender
07-15-2009, 04:52 AM
Unwritten rule: Chicks will always get special treatment.

I'd like to add to that, two more specific questions that must be asked, #1, is she hot and #2. does she have big boobs? Just saying. I've seen pit bull looking chicks get hammered while the Princess walks.

Silver Fox
07-15-2009, 04:55 AM
I'd like to add to that, two more specific questions that must be asked, #1, is she hot and #2. does she have big boobs? Just saying. I've seen pit bull looking chicks get hammered while the Princess walks.

T&A goes a long way is the saying I believe.

BadHairCut
07-15-2009, 06:47 AM
I wasn't sure wether to post this under the "dumb AF rules" or " Unwritten rules" so here goes.

At my base they constantly hound us to be club members and I am one by choice. What gets me is if I am a club member, paying my dues with every one else why are all the front parking spaces reserved for the following: Wing CC,Brig General, Any General Officer, Group CC, Colonel, Colonel, Colonel, Colonel, Colonel, Colonel, SQ Commander (any), any Lt, CCM, CMSgt, CMSgt, CMSgt, CMSgt, CMSgt, Annual Award Winner, Quarterly Award winner, Honor Guard, Retiree, Expectant Mothers, Civillian Volunteer, handicap, handicap, handicap, handicap, handicap? You end up parking at the far corner of the parking lot or in another parking lot because so many spaces are reserved. The walk is not a problem however when so many other "special people" get special perks and you don't you kind of feel like you are not valued as a dues paying member. The same can be said, maybe to a lesser degree, about the BX and Commissary. No dues but still a walk.

Yeah the reserved space for "Any 2nd Lt" kills me. WTF??? Might as well start 'em working on thier sense of entitlement as early as possible.....

Silver Fox
07-15-2009, 09:24 AM
How about this one: If your haircut is long but within regs you're a dirt bag.

So many guys it seems are of the mentality that you should shave your head or keep a high and tight. Sorry but the reg exists for a reason, and I don't care how much it pisses you off. I did the whole super hua high and tight until I made E-4 and realized that I didn't like the haircut, and didn't like being branded as military automatically by my haircut. Now it's just long enough that if people ask if I'm in the military I can say "No" and they'll say "Oh sorry you just had a shorter haircut." Sure, I spend more money on haircuts more often, but it's worth it to me.

Shaken1976
07-15-2009, 01:25 PM
Unwritten rule: Chicks will always get special treatment.

Depends on the career field and who you are. I once had a supervisor tell me that females shouldn't be in the MX field and that we coudln't hack it. I could pull an engine or move our equipment around just as well as the guys. I was better than some and worse than some. Most of the females in my shop there were treated the same way. Seems we had to work twice as hard to prove ourselves. And often when we screwed up we were hung out to dry while the guy got off.

Shrike
07-15-2009, 02:28 PM
Depends on the career field and who you are. I once had a supervisor tell me that females shouldn't be in the MX field and that we coudln't hack it. I could pull an engine or move our equipment around just as well as the guys. I was better than some and worse than some. Most of the females in my shop there were treated the same way. Seems we had to work twice as hard to prove ourselves. And often when we screwed up we were hung out to dry while the guy got off.

<SNARF!>

:)

Slap
07-15-2009, 02:30 PM
Yeah the reserved space for "Any 2nd Lt" kills me. WTF??? Might as well start 'em working on thier sense of entitlement as early as possible.....

haha thats awesome. but i'd never park in that spot. to me it screams "look at me im a tool!".

i'd rather fly it under the radar

imported_Seasons
07-15-2009, 02:31 PM
<SNARF!>

:)

Glad I'm not the only one who saw that.....

Here's a rule: its ok for Army enlisted to blow off Air Force officers but if you miss the tiny tiny emblem of an Army Major god have mercy on you.

ConfusedAirman
07-15-2009, 02:55 PM
IWhen you have the flight cap on your belt the side with the triangle is supposed to be facing you, so I am accurate in that, but mistaken in what Measure Man mentioned.

Per the AFI, "if not worn, tuck under the belt on wearer’s left side, between first and second belt loops; cap will not fold over belt. "

No mention of which direction to place the hat under your belt, so your belief that "the triangle is supposed to be facing you", is your unwritten rule.

garhkal
07-15-2009, 03:00 PM
Wow. Very valid point. I can see at hospitals and commissaries etc. sure, but for a paying club member.... that shouldn't matter. There should only be parking for "club members" and everyone else. You pay your dues just like General Shmo and Chief Schmuck.

I have always hated stuff like that. Eiether we are all paying members to a club amd therefore should be treated the same, or we are all treated to the normal RHIP/handicapped spots...

Capt Alfredo
07-15-2009, 03:09 PM
How about this one: If your haircut is long but within regs you're a dirt bag.

So many guys it seems are of the mentality that you should shave your head or keep a high and tight. Sorry but the reg exists for a reason, and I don't care how much it pisses you off. I did the whole super hua high and tight until I made E-4 and realized that I didn't like the haircut, and didn't like being branded as military automatically by my haircut. Now it's just long enough that if people ask if I'm in the military I can say "No" and they'll say "Oh sorry you just had a shorter haircut." Sure, I spend more money on haircuts more often, but it's worth it to me.

Amen, brother Silver Fox. Amen.

imported_2T2_1997
07-15-2009, 03:49 PM
And often when we screwed up we were hung out to dry while the guy got off.


That post painted the most vivid picture of any post I have ever read on here,

sigecaps
07-15-2009, 04:01 PM
Amen, brother Silver Fox. Amen.

Anytime anyone gives me grief for long hair in regulation, I just point to the CSAF. :)

Shaken1976
07-15-2009, 05:46 PM
<SNARF!>

:)

What is that supposed to mean??? Maybe you treat females better... But I have never seen it. I have worked for some major male chauvenists. For the longest time being a female NCO I was given all the female airmen. That way I could deal with them when they cried. That is pretty much exactly what I was told for why they were giving them to me. In all that time I had one crier. The first time she pulled it I lit into her and told her I wasn't putting up with that crap.


If you see women getting special treatment maybe you should got o MEO. As far as special treatment I have always seen the good ole boy society. In one shop if you could talk about NASCAR and WWF then you were in.

imported_Seasons
07-15-2009, 05:53 PM
What is that supposed to mean??? Maybe you treat females better... But I have never seen it. I have worked for some major male chauvenists. For the longest time being a female NCO I was given all the female airmen. That way I could deal with them when they cried. That is pretty much exactly what I was told for why they were giving them to me. In all that time I had one crier. The first time she pulled it I lit into her and told her I wasn't putting up with that crap.


If you see women getting special treatment maybe you should got o MEO. As far as special treatment I have always seen the good ole boy society. In one shop if you could talk about NASCAR and WWF then you were in.

Shaken...he was talking about "screwed up...hung...guy gets off". Think about it for a second.

I agree that the situation they put you in is pretty sexist. It also makes me think the guys would be freaking out and confused if a woman came up to them and started crying. Bwahahaha.

Shrike
07-15-2009, 05:59 PM
What is that supposed to mean??? Maybe you treat females better... But I have never seen it. I have worked for some major male chauvenists. For the longest time being a female NCO I was given all the female airmen. That way I could deal with them when they cried. That is pretty much exactly what I was told for why they were giving them to me. In all that time I had one crier. The first time she pulled it I lit into her and told her I wasn't putting up with that crap.


If you see women getting special treatment maybe you should got o MEO. As far as special treatment I have always seen the good ole boy society. In one shop if you could talk about NASCAR and WWF then you were in.

Yeah, it was a joke. You were talking about the girl getting screwed while the guy gets off. I even highlighted the section of text I was laughing at.


I won't draw you a picture, but I can send some links to web sites if need be.

:tongue:

Shaken1976
07-15-2009, 05:59 PM
Once I thought about it after I posted the last thing I got it....


I have had many male NCOs tell me that they sent female airmen home because they said they had cramps.

Don't let them get away with that crap. Tell them to take some Midol and get over it or go to sick call. Women know their bodies. They know when they will need the Midol. Oh and it isn't every friday afternoon.

I actually had one NCO ask me to talk to one of his troops about wearing a sports bra during PT. I didn't even know the girl. I feel that it would have been just as inappropriate for me to say it to her as any male.

imported_Seasons
07-15-2009, 06:05 PM
I actually had one NCO ask me to talk to one of his troops about wearing a sports bra during PT. I didn't even know the girl. I feel that it would have been just as inappropriate for me to say it to her as any male.

"Ms. Your gazongas are threatening to escape and clobber someone over the head. As a safety concern I must ask that you wear a sports bra to PT."

imported_blacksheep1208
07-15-2009, 06:10 PM
Unwritten rule: Chicks will always get special treatment.

Yup, the good old "V" waiver.

fufu
07-15-2009, 09:39 PM
Depends on the career field and who you are.

I'm in mx. Let me give some examples:

2003: Wing deployed to RAF Fairford. Guys were living 12 deep in a "portacabin". Females had their OWN room, regardless of rank. Why? B/c, leadership said the portacabins didn't have locks. Hmmmm...... We had just returned from Diego Garcia, where the tents didn't have locks. I don't recall their being a problem with males entering the tents..........unless they were invited.

Female gets arrested, off base at a night club(we are still talking in a foreign country mind you). Article 15 seems fitting, right? Nope, not for her. If that was a guy, we would have been kicked out....guaranteed.

2008: My workcenter at the time, QA. All inspectors were told to get weight and balance qualified. The lone female never got qualified. Why? B/c, she "didn't have the time". Was she ever held accountable? Nope.

2009: Al Udeid AB. Females are allowed to relax hair regulations when in PT gear. Are guys allowed to go unshaven during our "day off"? Nope. Men have to tuck in their shirts if going off base. Women? Nope.

chevyman
07-15-2009, 09:41 PM
Yup, the good old "V" waiver.

I seen that more than once. The girl bats her eyes or cries and man caves. I have seen good male airman lose award boards and BTZ to a DB female airman, and they say it was the package that won, yeah right! I don't let female airman that work for me pull that crap, they are airman first, females second.

BENDER56
07-15-2009, 10:08 PM
In all that time I had one crier. The first time she pulled it I lit into her and told her I wasn't putting up with that crap.

I'd bet I've had more males crying in my office than females ('course, the AF is 80% male, so maybe that drives the numbers.)

I have a box of Kleenex™ on my desk. Here. Take one. I'll wait.

technomage1
07-16-2009, 05:09 AM
I actually had one NCO ask me to talk to one of his troops about wearing a sports bra during PT. I didn't even know the girl. I feel that it would have been just as inappropriate for me to say it to her as any male.

Why was he asking you to do this in the first place? If one of his troops needs correcting (no matter what the issue), he should be doing it himself. Not wearing proper undergarments is a uniform correction like any other, if handled professionally there should not be an issue.

If a guy wasn't wearing briefs with his PT shorts and was flashing people, I'd think you'd pull him aside and correct him for his own benefit. It's no different for the female not wearing the proper bra - pull her aside and correct her for her own benefit.

garhkal
07-16-2009, 03:18 PM
I seen that more than once. The girl bats her eyes or cries and man caves. I have seen good male airman lose award boards and BTZ to a DB female airman, and they say it was the package that won, yeah right! I don't let female airman that work for me pull that crap, they are airman first, females second.

Yup. Had one chick who was frakking over our cal lab on the kennedy when i was there (even though they had me TAD to maintenance support center), but when they tried taking her to DRB she went to the EO person and cried a river about how hard it was for her... With no proof.

Okie
07-16-2009, 08:41 PM
Glad I'm not the only one who saw that.....

Here's a rule: its ok for Army enlisted to blow off Air Force officers but if you miss the tiny tiny emblem of an Army Major god have mercy on you.

I knew a Major at a joint base who would salute the Army enlisted guy/gal first (usually with a pleasant "Good Morning/Afternoon/Evening"). The look on their faces is funny, but he got a salute.

What's the deal with the sports bra? I admit to not being up to speed on authorized feminine undergarments.

Okie
07-16-2009, 08:43 PM
Yeah the reserved space for "Any 2nd Lt" kills me. WTF??? Might as well start 'em working on thier sense of entitlement as early as possible.....

I'm told it's actually a carryover from the old days when parking there meant buying a round for the bar. Unfortunately, the tradition didn't get carried over w/ the parking space. :D

Shaken1976
07-16-2009, 08:50 PM
I knew a Major at a joint base who would salute the Army enlisted guy/gal first (usually with a pleasant "Good Morning/Afternoon/Evening"). The look on their faces is funny, but he got a salute.

What's the deal with the sports bra? I admit to not being up to speed on authorized feminine undergarments.

The sports bra thing I don't think is really in the regs. The guy just felt that this girl should have worn a sports bra instead of a regular bra while doing PT.

Okie
07-16-2009, 08:59 PM
Sorry about that. I somehow missed the "your huge gazongas are about to escape and clobber you" post, which is quite possiblly the best post I've seen on here. :D

How is that anybody's business??

imported_oih82w8
07-29-2009, 06:47 PM
...I'll start off with "Although it's an optional uniform for enlisted, SNCOs will wear mess dress, not the semi-formal uniform."

I could afford the Mess Dress Uniform, just not the mini medal rack that is required to accompany it at the same time, if I wanted to replace my BDU's with the same clothing allowance stipend. So I am one of the frowned upon MSgt's who wears the semi-formal to all of the brew-ha-ha's. :rolleyes:

imported_blacktwig
07-29-2009, 07:28 PM
I like this thread ---it's very interesting to read!

TJMAC77SP
07-29-2009, 07:52 PM
I could afford the Mess Dress Uniform, just not the mini medal rack that is required to accompany it at the same time, if I wanted to replace my BDU's with the same clothing allowance stipend. So I am one of the frowned upon MSgt's who wears the semi-formal to all of the brew-ha-ha's. :rolleyes:

........and continue to be ((until you make the appearance with the Mess Dress))

imported_oih82w8
07-29-2009, 08:09 PM
........and continue to be ((until you make the appearance with the Mess Dress))

If you are required to wear something (mini medals on Mess Dress), is it not supposed to be issued first? :eek: That would save me the 150 bucks for my mini medal rack! :rolleyes:

imported_oih82w8
07-29-2009, 08:20 PM
I would like to hear some of your comments...

Normally it is one year TIG minimum, performing a duty commiserate to your rank. If you were doing the same duty as a new Staff that you were doing as a seasoned SrA...NOPE!

Same thing for MSM's...nNormally it is one year TIG minimum, performing a duty commiserate to your rank.

imported_oih82w8
07-29-2009, 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by Modus
How long do you have to have Staff on at your bases to get a Comm.?


I would like to hear some of your comments...

Normally it is one year TIG minimum, performing a duty commiserate to your rank. If you were doing the same duty as a new Staff that you were doing as a seasoned SrA...NOPE!

Same thing for MSM's...nNormally it is one year TIG minimum, performing a duty commiserate to your rank.

imported_oih82w8
07-29-2009, 09:15 PM
I used to work with a guy who wore cowboy boots with his blues. He also had a moustache, so he was one rebel of a captain...

Sounds like one of the Village People...actually a couple of 'em put together.

Capt Alfredo
07-29-2009, 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by Modus
How long do you have to have Staff on at your bases to get a Comm.?



Normally it is one year TIG minimum, performing a duty commiserate to your rank. If you were doing the same duty as a new Staff that you were doing as a seasoned SrA...NOPE!

Same thing for MSM's...nNormally it is one year TIG minimum, performing a duty commiserate to your rank.

Pretty sure you mean "commensurate to your rank" but I certainly commiserate with your spelling difficulties...

imported_oih82w8
07-29-2009, 09:36 PM
Thanks for the homonym befuddlement.

Your_Name_Here
07-29-2009, 10:10 PM
If you are required to wear something (mini medals on Mess Dress), is it not supposed to be issued first? :eek: That would save me the 150 bucks for my mini medal rack! :rolleyes:

In case you're not being facetious (and BTW, I am all for facetiousness:tongue: ):

OPTIONAL WEAR uniform items made mandatory for wear must be issued at no cost to the member. Unless you get issued the entire Mess Dress uniform, no dice on your mini medal rack, etc. Just my $0.02 though.

imported_oih82w8
07-29-2009, 10:42 PM
In case you're not being facetious (and BTW, I am all for facetiousness:tongue: ):

OPTIONAL WEAR uniform items made mandatory for wear must be issued at no cost to the member. Unless you get issued the entire Mess Dress uniform, no dice on your mini medal rack, etc. Just my $0.02 though.

...kinda falls into play about "The Unwritten Rules", and SNCO's wearing Mess Dress. :rolleyes:

VOLZZZMAN
07-30-2009, 02:16 AM
How about "selects" jumping to the top of the list of those wearing the current stripe? We had a discussion the other day if a MSgt-select outranks all other TSgts in the shop even if he/she isn't the one with the most TIG. We looked it up and only found that a CC can place a "select" in a position over a ranking individual if he/she chooses.

But to say they automatically outrank everyone in their grade....unwritten rule.

Always heard...What is a MSgt-select...a TSgt!

fufu
07-30-2009, 03:18 AM
How about "selects" jumping to the top of the list of those wearing the current stripe? We had a discussion the other day if a MSgt-select outranks all other TSgts in the shop even if he/she isn't the one with the most TIG. We looked it up and only found that a CC can place a "select" in a position over a ranking individual if he/she chooses.

But to say they automatically outrank everyone in their grade....unwritten rule.

Always heard...What is a MSgt-select...a TSgt!

Here at the Deid, a (M)Sgt gets his/her own room in my squadron, regardless of when they sew on. They could NOT sew on here, doesn't matter. The rest of us are double occupancy.

TJMAC77SP
07-30-2009, 11:26 AM
If you are required to wear something (mini medals on Mess Dress), is it not supposed to be issued first? :eek: That would save me the 150 bucks for my mini medal rack! :rolleyes:

That is why the topic of this thread is 'unwritten rules'. Some agree with them some don't.

TJMAC77SP
07-30-2009, 11:27 AM
...kinda falls into play about "The Unwritten Rules", and SNCO's wearing Mess Dress. :rolleyes:

By George, now you get it !!

TJMAC77SP
07-30-2009, 11:30 AM
How about "selects" jumping to the top of the list of those wearing the current stripe? We had a discussion the other day if a MSgt-select outranks all other TSgts in the shop even if he/she isn't the one with the most TIG. We looked it up and only found that a CC can place a "select" in a position over a ranking individual if he/she chooses.

But to say they automatically outrank everyone in their grade....unwritten rule.

Always heard...What is a MSgt-select...a TSgt!

Can't say that I ever heard that one before. Not with regard to rank precedence within an organization. I HAVE heard of and seen selects being given more responsibility to groom them for their impending rank increase.

GingerKid
07-30-2009, 05:38 PM
The sports bra thing I don't think is really in the regs. The guy just felt that this girl should have worn a sports bra instead of a regular bra while doing PT.

I'm under the impression that certain females should know when they need, ahem, mission-specific equipment.

But I've seen a few dudes walking around that looked like they could use one.

imported_oih82w8
07-30-2009, 05:56 PM
I'm under the impression that certain females should know when they need, ahem, mission-specific equipment.

But I've seen a few dudes walking around that looked like they could use one.

You mean the Seinfeld episode that featured "The Bro" or "The Man-siere"? :rolleyes:

BigT2002
08-03-2009, 06:53 AM
My unwriten rules (many already said):

1) Dec system: E-1 to E-4 only can get a AFAM, E-5 and E-6 get AFCM, and E-7's and above MSM. No exceptions regardless of if it could be warranted.

2) SNCO's and Field Grade Officers can receive a Bronze Star while doing 4-6 month deployments while never leaving the wire because they simply were "there." I've personally witnessed two LTC's who received them for just being in a room when a bomb killed someone and they were the Chief of a section.

3) Not being allowed to wear badges received from other services.

4) You shouldn't wear black combat boots while you're in blues

5) STEP promoted because you can't pass a test on your own job

6) That while the military will not endorse any one religion, evey formal function always opens with a prayer.

7) Men are Guilty until Proven Innocent in any domestic violence case. Even when its mil-2-mil, the male is always the one who is forced to live in the dorms until the situation is resolved.

Now my most important one that has appeared to be the most abused thing over the last couple years:

8) Military women are allowed, no questions asked, to get tummy tucks because they can't work normally now after their child

and drum roll with this one......

9) Women can get fake boobs because its a "self esteem" issue and they can't perform their job anymore. I've now known at least 20 women who went from small B's to D's on the governments money (to include Con. Leave) to get this surgery. You'd think you'd be happy to have something to look at while at work, but shockingly they just become bigger biatches.

Silver Fox
08-03-2009, 07:14 AM
6) That while the military will not endorse any one religion, evey formal function always opens with a prayer.


I hate this as well.

I would really like a don't ask, don't tell policy for religion at work. It's fine during your bible studies and off duty time and church services, but keep it out of the office.

BigT2002
08-03-2009, 07:27 AM
I hate this as well.

I would really like a don't ask, don't tell policy for religion at work. It's fine during your bible studies and off duty time and church services, but keep it out of the office.

Whats funny is ask your Command Chief or WIng King if you ever get the chance why they do it and the resounding answer has always been (in my case at least) "its tradition in the military to do it"

Silver Fox
08-03-2009, 07:28 AM
Whats funny is ask your Command Chief or WIng King if you ever get the chance why they do it and the resounding answer has always been (in my case at least) "its tradition in the military to do it"

I tend to just look around blankly, rock back and forth, yawn, check my watch, tap my feet... halfway because I refuse to conform to it and they can't make it and halfway because I sincerely hope someone attempts to brief me. :D

BigT2002
08-03-2009, 07:38 AM
I tend to just look around blankly, rock back and forth, yawn, check my watch, tap my feet... halfway because I refuse to conform to it and they can't make it and halfway because I sincerely hope someone attempts to brief me. :D

Had someone try to "counsel me" when they did it during my ALS graduation and I couldn't keep a straight face while they were trying to lecture me on how the prayer is one of the most important things in the military. And no they weren't a chaplain assistant :cool:

Silver Fox
08-03-2009, 07:58 AM
Had someone try to "counsel me" when they did it during my ALS graduation and I couldn't keep a straight face while they were trying to lecture me on how the prayer is one of the most important things in the military. And no they weren't a chaplain assistant :cool:

I had to go inside once during an outside ceremony on Christmas. It wasn't the prayer itself, it was the fact that the Chaplain had a horrifically thick oriental accent and listening to him pray aloud was making crack up.

"Gawd, pwease bwess us aww in your howie pwesence."

I felt bad for him at the same time, which is the only reason I excused myself, I didn't want to break his concentration. He was doing his best.

BigT2002
08-03-2009, 08:04 AM
I had to go inside once during an outside ceremony on Christmas. It wasn't the prayer itself, it was the fact that the Chaplain had a horrifically thick oriental accent and listening to him pray aloud was making crack up.

"Gawd, pwease bwess us aww in your howie pwesence."

I felt bad for him at the same time, which is the only reason I excused myself, I didn't want to break his concentration. He was doing his best.

I had that at Ramstein when they were trying to appoint chaplains to the squadrons for better "morale" since the suicide rates were skyrocketing. Guy had such a thick accent I couldn't understand a damn thing he said. I was only 20 at the time it was hard not snicker...like being in Health class back in 8th grade and having to say penis in front of girls lol

Silver Fox
08-03-2009, 08:33 AM
I had that at Ramstein when they were trying to appoint chaplains to the squadrons for better "morale" since the suicide rates were skyrocketing. Guy had such a thick accent I couldn't understand a damn thing he said. I was only 20 at the time it was hard not snicker...like being in Health class back in 8th grade and having to say penis in front of girls lol

LMAO great analogy.

Reminds me of the penis game, where'd you sit at the back of the class and gradually say penis louder and louder until the teacher heard it and had to try and figure out who said it. :)

imported_biddy1030
08-03-2009, 03:01 PM
How about "selects" jumping to the top of the list of those wearing the current stripe? We had a discussion the other day if a MSgt-select outranks all other TSgts in the shop even if he/she isn't the one with the most TIG. We looked it up and only found that a CC can place a "select" in a position over a ranking individual if he/she chooses.

But to say they automatically outrank everyone in their grade....unwritten rule.

Always heard...What is a MSgt-select...a TSgt!

cant stand it when someone makes, let say staff, and in the their email signature it says Sra (SSgt Select), like we really care, last time i checked you were still a senior airman

garhkal
08-03-2009, 04:17 PM
6) That while the military will not endorse any one religion, evey formal function always opens with a prayer.


I have alwasy hated that myself, and when i bring it up, i seem to get a 'cold shoulder' from certain elements. Almost like i just slagged off their families.


9) Women can get fake boobs because its a "self esteem" issue and they can't perform their job anymore. I've now known at least 20 women who went from small B's to D's on the governments money (to include Con. Leave) to get this surgery. You'd think you'd be happy to have something to look at while at work, but shockingly they just become bigger biatches.

Wow. Did not know that. Wonder if i can put in for a penis exttension...

BRUWIN
08-03-2009, 09:06 PM
How about the unwritten rule that Chiefs can't be put in for awards. I saw this broken one time...when a Chief I worked for put herself in for FOD person of the month. And she was dead serious that she deserved it too. It was during the time McPeak ran the show and her self centeredness was par for the course at the time. Man...did she ever lose some respect after that.

BRUWIN
08-03-2009, 09:08 PM
I have alwasy hated that myself, and when i bring it up, i seem to get a 'cold shoulder' from certain elements. Almost like i just slagged off their families.



Wow. Did not know that. Wonder if i can put in for a penis exttension...

You could...but they would only make your neck longer.

BigT2002
08-04-2009, 05:29 AM
I have alwasy hated that myself, and when i bring it up, i seem to get a 'cold shoulder' from certain elements. Almost like i just slagged off their families.
Wow. Did not know that. Wonder if i can put in for a penis exttension...

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/07/26/040726ta_talk_schaler

It has to do with esteem issues, and currently that is not something I think Tricare will cover lol. ANother thing that caters to women in the military! Funny thing is, about 60% of the women I know who got the surgery were 1LT or Capt's

Falcongunner
08-05-2009, 08:19 PM
I know a couple A1Cs that put in for it and got denied, but their OIC was approved. Maybe thats another unwriten rule.

No free boob jobs unless you can aford it to start with.

Silver Fox
08-06-2009, 01:28 AM
I know a couple A1Cs that put in for it and got denied, but their OIC was approved. Maybe thats another unwriten rule.

No free boob jobs unless you can aford it to start with.

I know a Staff Sergeant that had it done, and then asked me to give an appraisal (Don't worry, she was in a completely different squadron). It was about the same amount of awkwardness that John Candy experienced on the movie Summer Rental. It's a strange situation when a woman you know you're not going to score with asks you to rate her breasts. But I was still happy to do the 'friendly' favor. :D

Come to think of it, this is another gross double standard. Provided I felt the need for an enlargement, and was able to get the airforce to do one, it would be totally out of line for me to ask someone of the opposite sex to rate their handiwork! ;)

Shrike
08-06-2009, 05:18 AM
I know a couple A1Cs that put in for it and got denied, but their OIC was approved. Maybe thats another unwriten rule.

No free boob jobs unless you can aford it to start with.

To clarify, the boob job is not technically "Free". The member must pay for the implants. The surgery is what isn't charged. The reason why was explained to me once as because it's a good opportunity for some more inexperienced surgeons to get some knife time. Kind of like when I went through tech school, every time anyone went to the dentist they wanted to yank their wisdom teeth. ;)

Any med folks out there that can verify?

Winters02
08-06-2009, 02:42 PM
#1 You cannot STEP promote someone unless they've repeatedly failed their WAPS test over and over again. I've heard people say (that truly believe) "The STEP program is basically for bad test takers."

#2 An E-1 through E-4 can recieve an Achievement Medal, and under no circumstances - absolutely none, recieve a AFCM (Unless they're in combat)

#3 It is an insult to give a SNCO anything lower than a MSM

#4 Commanding officers will recieve a bronze star upon their departure from Iraq

#5 All NCO's must keep at least 1 coffee cup on/near their desk

#6 Any airman who does not spit shine his/her boots or starch their uniform is a dirtbag, and consequently, is not trusted enough to perform at maximum standards.

#7 You will not be able to enforce policy amongst your airmen unless you throw in a few swear words

#8 You must be on guard AT ALL TIMES, anywhere and everywhere, to call someone out for not wearing their cover outside

#9 A SNCO/Officer, is occasionally allowed to place their hands in their pockets

#10 Officers above O-5 do not need to comply to USAF hair regulations

#11 Officers above O-5 (mostly pilots) can wear their flight cap however they please

ProGlfer88
08-06-2009, 04:33 PM
Any mark downs on an EPR during a tour equals no or a lower decoration at PCS. I had a TSgt that had one mark down in three years and the Gp chief wanted to down grade his AFCM to an AFAM. Had to include a push note from the supervisor and commander to get the job done.

This happened to me recently. My last 14 EPR's have be 5's, I know, I know inflated EPR system, none-the-less, 9 of the last 10 were firewalled. My last was marked down in one slot, and a Chief (who I stood up to that wanted me to all but re-write an EPR I had already written) shot down my AFCM because of that markdown, and he didn't even recommend AFAM. When I approached him about it, he couldn't even give me and honest answer nor be man enough to look me in the eye. I shook my head and scoffed at him. A week later he is giving a ridiculousely fat TSgt (with a PT test failure under her belt) an NCO of the quarter award and praising her....

ProGlfer88
08-06-2009, 05:04 PM
#1 You cannot STEP promote someone unless they've repeatedly failed their WAPS test over and over again. I've heard people say (that truly believe) "The STEP program is basically for bad test takers."

#2 An E-1 through E-4 can recieve an Achievement Medal, and under no circumstances - absolutely none, recieve a AFCM (Unless they're in combat)

#3 It is an insult to give a SNCO anything lower than a MSM

#4 Commanding officers will recieve a bronze star upon their departure from Iraq

#5 All NCO's must keep at least 1 coffee cup on/near their desk

#6 Any airman who does not spit shine his/her boots or starch their uniform is a dirtbag, and consequently, is not trusted enough to perform at maximum standards.

#7 You will not be able to enforce policy amongst your airmen unless you throw in a few swear words

#8 You must be on guard AT ALL TIMES, anywhere and everywhere, to call someone out for not wearing their cover outside

#9 A SNCO/Officer, is occasionally allowed to place their hands in their pockets

#10 Officers above O-5 do not need to comply to USAF hair regulations

#11 Officers above O-5 (mostly pilots) can wear their flight cap however they please

And let's not forget......#12 Those in flying career fields, whether flying or not can wear their AF ISSUED flight suit everyday. Even when flying a desk, managing the squadron snack bar, or when grounded due to medical reasons. I am currently assigned to a base that has less than 10 aircraft (6 of them are corporate lear jets), yet we have about 3,000 flyers here....

Falcongunner
08-06-2009, 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by AF-1Sgt
Any mark downs on an EPR during a tour equals no or a lower decoration at PCS. I had a TSgt that had one mark down in three years and the Gp chief wanted to down grade his AFCM to an AFAM. Had to include a push note from the supervisor and commander to get the job done.

This is a commentary on how Medals aren't achieved for job performance, but on how worn out your knee pads are.

ProGlfer88
08-06-2009, 05:09 PM
I had to go inside once during an outside ceremony on Christmas. It wasn't the prayer itself, it was the fact that the Chaplain had a horrifically thick oriental accent and listening to him pray aloud was making crack up.

"Gawd, pwease bwess us aww in your howie pwesence."

I felt bad for him at the same time, which is the only reason I excused myself, I didn't want to break his concentration. He was doing his best.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA..............damn, got tears rolling..............

ProGlfer88
08-06-2009, 05:16 PM
How about "selects" jumping to the top of the list of those wearing the current stripe? We had a discussion the other day if a MSgt-select outranks all other TSgts in the shop even if he/she isn't the one with the most TIG. We looked it up and only found that a CC can place a "select" in a position over a ranking individual if he/she chooses.

But to say they automatically outrank everyone in their grade....unwritten rule.

Always heard...What is a MSgt-select...a TSgt!

I have seen this alot, especially when they want to groom the prodigal MSgt select for SMSgt by putting them in the 1st Sgt slot (as a Tsgt) when he/she is gone....I

fufu
08-06-2009, 09:54 PM
This is a commentary on how Medals aren't achieved for job performance, but on how worn out your knee pads are.

Yep. 9 years and counting for me. I hope I make MSgt this year, I'll get to participate in blues monday with my one AFAM! Yes!

Silver Fox
08-06-2009, 11:37 PM
#1 You cannot STEP promote someone unless they've repeatedly failed their WAPS test over and over again. I've heard people say (that truly believe) "The STEP program is basically for bad test takers."

#2 An E-1 through E-4 can recieve an Achievement Medal, and under no circumstances - absolutely none, recieve a AFCM (Unless they're in combat)

#3 It is an insult to give a SNCO anything lower than a MSM

#4 Commanding officers will recieve a bronze star upon their departure from Iraq

#5 All NCO's must keep at least 1 coffee cup on/near their desk

#6 Any airman who does not spit shine his/her boots or starch their uniform is a dirtbag, and consequently, is not trusted enough to perform at maximum standards.

#7 You will not be able to enforce policy amongst your airmen unless you throw in a few swear words

#8 You must be on guard AT ALL TIMES, anywhere and everywhere, to call someone out for not wearing their cover outside

#9 A SNCO/Officer, is occasionally allowed to place their hands in their pockets

#10 Officers above O-5 do not need to comply to USAF hair regulations

#11 Officers above O-5 (mostly pilots) can wear their flight cap however they please


Oh god, those are all so true!

#9 Makes me laugh, because our First Sergeant was giving a 'morale raising' briefing to some of our airman about how big of a bunch of dirt bags he thought they were, and then said they weren't even looking out for eachother because one of them had unauthorized sun glasses on. ...... He gave the entire brief with his hands in his pockets. :rolleyes: I asked my airmen if anyone called him out on it, and they were all too intimidated.... of course.

BENDER56
08-07-2009, 05:09 PM
To clarify, the boob job is not technically "Free". The member must pay for the implants. The surgery is what isn't charged. The reason why was explained to me once as because it's a good opportunity for some more inexperienced surgeons to get some knife time. Kind of like when I went through tech school, every time anyone went to the dentist they wanted to yank their wisdom teeth. ;)

Any med folks out there that can verify?

I was an NCOIC of a General Surgery Clinic many years ago and we had two plastic surgeons on staff. In order to stay board-certified, plastic sugeons need to perform a minimum number of certain surgeries every year. So many of these cosmetic surgeries are legitimate. Plus, as you mentioned, the patient pays for the implants and, IIRC, also pays for any inpatient hospitalization.

If the surgeon rules that the surgery is necessary to correct a medical condition, then it's considered a reconstructive surgery and it's performed free. We did lots of breast reduction surgeries to alleviate chronic shoulder/back pain. BTW, contrary to what someone said earlier, "poor self esteem" is not a valid reason to consider a breast augmentation surgery to be reconstructive.

Gunner007
08-07-2009, 07:53 PM
My unwriten rules (many already said):

....
6) That while the military will not endorse any one religion, evey formal function always opens with a prayer.

7) Men are Guilty until Proven Innocent in any domestic violence case. Even when its mil-2-mil, the male is always the one who is forced to live in the dorms until the situation is resolved.

Now my most important one that has appeared to be the most abused thing over the last couple years:

8) Military women are allowed, no questions asked, to get tummy tucks because they can't work normally now after their child

and drum roll with this one......

9) Women can get fake boobs because its a "self esteem" issue and they can't perform their job anymore. I've now known at least 20 women who went from small B's to D's on the governments money (to include Con. Leave) to get this surgery. You'd think you'd be happy to have something to look at while at work, but shockingly they just become bigger biatches.

6: You would think as a Christian i wouldnt mind the prayers before this and that but i think its because i am a Christian i hate them even more. I personally wouldnt care if the guy retiring was jewish or whatever and he wanted a prayer in his religion thats fine with me. I can stand and be observant and courteous of someone else's religion that doesnt bother me. What really pisses me off is when its apparent that its suppose to be a Christian prayer and they omit and reference to Christ! I mean either do it all the way or dont bother, dont insult my religions core belief by trying to dance around the fire. If you arent willing to use Christ in an obviously Christian prayer, then just dont have a prayer!

7: Seen a SNCO come home late from a party we had, his wife met him at the door with a butcher knife and cut him long, deep, & continuous! He went to jail, after the medics stitched him up. He was then charged with DV and faced losing his entire career when all he did was come home after a party. Well, his wife got a call that we had atwo off duty strippers making out in the living room of my buddies house and this guy had watched and cheered them on. So the wife was pissed about it and when he opened the door... Yep, she got a piece of his ass! THe commander eventually worked it out with downtown and they referred it back to base and it eventually went away but still... he gets cut to shit and he is the one charged? complete bullshit!

8 & 9: Seen it bro, sorry and yeah its crap! She paid for the implants and some minor medical cost for the disposable medical stuff like guaze and shit and basically got new headlights for just around 2 grand. THey werent free but they didnt cost her 10 grand either! I wonder if i went in and whined about being depressed because i dont have 6 pack abs if i would get the same offer for lipo? THey would just tell me to goto the gym more!

garhkal
08-08-2009, 09:49 PM
What gets me on the awards crap, is (well for the navy) the chief can not even have anything to do with a project, heck in some cases not even know of it, but when it is done, HE is the one who gets the higher award for managing it.

Measure Man
12-03-2012, 11:08 PM
Once you fail in anything, no matter how large or small, you can never be trusted in anything ever again...unless that thing is directly in the line of performing your primary job, then it doesn't count.

B1k3rBoi
12-04-2012, 12:06 AM
The applied correctly part was the point I was trying to make.



Yep, this one sucks, and the AFI is flat-out wrong. 36-2903, Table 5.2., Rule 6. "US Army Air Assault Badge, Pathfinder Badge, Ranger Tab - Only while permananently assigned to and performing duties with other services. See Note 11." Note 11 says "This rule also applies to other badges or patches i.e. Army Combat Patches earned or awarded by sister service components. Upon PCS to an Air Force unit the member will remove them." The same statement also appears for the Parachute Riggers Badge, Combat Infantry, Combat Medical and CAB as well. Just my example of the AFI being wrong.

I'd love to see somebody try to take a Ranger's Tab off his shoulder. To me, if you earned it, you can wear it. Period. And no, I haven't earned any of the above, but I know several who have and are affected by this rule.

I never understood this! If people are so gung-ho about wearing a Ranger Tab or any other Army patches, then JOIN THE ARMY!

FC2
06-30-2013, 07:28 PM
if you don't have a cover outside you must place your left hand on top of your head? CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHERE THIS SILLINESS CAME FROM?

Juggs
06-30-2013, 09:36 PM
I never understood this! If people are so gung-ho about wearing a Ranger Tab or any other Army patches, then JOIN THE ARMY!

The sere nerds can wear theres and it looks like my 4 year old drew it. Yet a jtac that served with 2/75 Rangers cant?

Of course a remf says join the Army about earning tabs and badges.

BOSS302
06-30-2013, 10:15 PM
if you don't have a cover outside you must place your left hand on top of your head? CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHERE THIS SILLINESS CAME FROM?

Sounds like someone is messing with you.

technomage1
06-30-2013, 10:44 PM
Sounds like someone is messing with you.

I learned it in basic. Could be they were messing with us then, or trying to make us remember the hat.

Roto
07-03-2013, 05:03 PM
Had someone try to "counsel me" when they did it during my ALS graduation and I couldn't keep a straight face while they were trying to lecture me on how the prayer is one of the most important things in the military. And no they weren't a chaplain assistant :cool:

I'm waiting for that to happen to me. Whenever they call for a prayer, I'm pretty much the only one who doesn't do it.